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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
"--naturally raises the issue of Palestinian rights, which were a prime component of the Camp David Accords, vitiated over 33 years. This is one of the reasons that Jimmy Carter has been so engaged; the treaty he orchestrated has been dishonored."
Phil, the treaty was dishonored almost immediately on Israel's part. Even though Begin and the Knesset agreed and signed on to adhere to UN resolution 242 to return to the 1967 borders, they obviously reneged.
that's funny. i have read that dylan was an admirer of meir kahane and the jdl. it would be like chuck norris reading rumi.
don't forget that a HUGE part of Paul's agenda is to end the War on Drugs. This is big here in Mexico.
"Quite a stretch Max."
Oh boy, mental calisthenics for Witty. Maybe there's hope after all.
whoa there hophead. we must remember that sadaam hussein gave money to the families of martyrs in the 2nd infatada. israel would destroy the houses of the family and would then get some thing to rebuild. there was huge anger over this. also at this time the likud party was prosecuting fatah families but not hamas in order to strengthen them as a counterweight to the plo.
i do not mean to suggest that the i/p issue is not hugely important but that it is separate. of course it can be linked to wall street. america's official position on israel shames me as a citizen and a human being.
please keep the palestinian issue out of OWS. it would alienate the majority of americans who are pig effing ignorant. this movement is important.
i have seen signs in support of palestinian freedom at every march i attended and are to be expected but to attempt to co-opt this movement would border on criminal insanity.
i suspect that the author is quite young. the i/p situation is finally changing. i've been labeled anti-semite since 1967, the invasion of lebanon in 1982 was all i needed to know. let it change as fast as possible but it is a fringe issue as far as OWS is concerned.
licit": what you can get away with.]
Pablemont, I think that this is the lesson that Israel learned from the Nazis. Don't take too much at a time and keep taking ad infinitum. the Germans took too much too quickly.
"And what rough beast,
it's time come round at last,
slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"
W B Yeats. from the Second Coming
What can save us from these barbaric tribal religions that emanate from the "holy land"?
annie, i thought i pointed out that the subsequent events that were triggered by the lavon affair are of hugely more importance than the affair itself. it's like the pro zionist posts here that keep dredging up the "hebron massacre" without addressing the effect of the ashkenazi jews on the community. i have been disgusted with israel since 1982
it seems that the "Lavon affair" had many repercussions. I just found this on a contemporary Time magazine article. It seems that one thing leads to another and it is not useful to extrapolate one small piece of a larger puzzle:
>"Road to War. Through all the fog of censorship and intrigue obscuring the Lavon affair, the one clear fact was that Lavon's resignation in February 1955 brought Ben-Gurion back from 15 months' retirement in the Negev to take Lavon's post. Shortly afterward, Ben-Gurion became Prime Minister, replacing Moderate Moshe Sharett, who was more susceptible to the argument that Israel must try to quiet the fears of its Arab neighbors if it is to live in peace with them. Eleven days after Ben-Gurion's return, the Israeli army carried out the massive reprisal raid on Gaza in which Israelis blew up the Egyptian headquarters and killed 38 Egyptians.
Egypt's President Nasser has often pointed to this blow as the event which convinced him that only if he sought arms, and quickly, could he save Egypt. Failing to get them in the West, Nasser turned to make the cotton-for-guns deal with the Russians that brought Communist influence into the Middle East. As more Israeli raids followed, young Shimon Peres flew to Paris to negotiate the alliance that armed Israel with French jets and tanks and paved the way for the Anglo-French-Israeli invasion of Egypt in the fall of 1956.>"
link to time.com
great article in al jazeera today. it's an interview by mark levine with udi aloni.
>"Even if you show people the truth time and time again, they will still be blind to it. And so, for example, the demonstrators who march for housing in Tel Aviv couldn't see the link between their struggle and the Palestinian refugees' longing for home. American Jews can be so liberal in the US and yet use proto-fascist language when it comes to Israel.
One possible conclusion is that these people are just evil or duplicitous, but I don't believe that. Rather, there is clearly a social unconscious that blinds people to the truth. This is beyond changing individual consciousness or having a logical conversation. It can be an infuriating experience to invoke logic and see that people don't understand your arguments, and this is in part why the left often becomes so angry and bitter.">
link to english.aljazeera.net
seems like he had poor richard in mind. he is lost in his scotoma. can't see for all the blind spots.
So who will decide who is a Jew if Israel is declared a "Jewish" state.
seems to me that it is going to be progressively difficult to manage the distinction between the army and the settlers. there are settler and orthodox units within the IDF who at some point will likely refuse to follow orders. will the IDF shoot dissident troops if attacked?
don't forget the shrub wanted to get Saddam for "trying to kill his daddy". those crooks had many reasons.
I was disowned by a friend maybe 6 years ago when I told her that the Israelis would be at each other's throats without the Palestinian issues to keep them together. Seems I might have been right but lost an interesting friend. She said it was the most racist thing she had ever heard... does zionism make you stupid?
actually there is the threat of retaliation from saudi arabia already. it was hinged on the UN veto, but it is floating out there.
>"In his New York Times piece, Prince Turki says if the U.S. does veto Palestinian statehood, Saudi Arabia would be forced “to adopt a far more independent and assertive foreign policy” and could break with the U.S. on some key issues. First, he says, Saudi Arabia will oppose the government of Nouri al-Maliki in Iraq and refuse to open an embassy there, something the U.S. has been pressing the Saudis to do. Further, he writes, “The Saudi government might part ways with Washington in Afghanistan and Yemen as well.”
Read more: link to swampland.time.com
am i sensing echos of the weimar republic?
phil, 54? don't you mean '64? in '54 we were busy licking our wounds from the korean war.
why vote for a politician if you can buy them.
S.D., What about Marwan Barghoutti? Would he still be a stabilizing force for the Palestinians? There was a time that he seemed to be someone acceptable to the different factions.
We must not forget the lead up to this. Arik Sharon ordered the bombing of downtown Beirut even thought there was no PLO presence there in order to put pressure on Arafat. This was when the PLO agreed to leave and the US and France "guaranteed" the safety of the women, children and old men who stayed. So this was yet another knife in the back from our lovely "ally". Btw, Robert Fisk was the first reporter on the scene and saw first hand and reported what was going on there. Of course Israel was doing all it could to keep it all in the dark, hence the bulldozers. I was following this closely at the time and was horrified.
RIchard, I would love to hear your first hand account of a visit to the West Bank. I guess you are in Westchester or some such front line zone. It behooves you to go. Thanks in advance.
These lovers of Israel prefer to do their business in the dark. No looking please and for God's sake don't talk about the unmentionable truth. It's like the three monkeys, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no.... EVIL!
he is also the kinky friedman who's campaign slogan when he ran for governor of texas after bush was "CAN'T BE THAT HARD". It kinda made me like him. His music is so so, he is part of the Austin scene.
Hi Phil, I think the best thing to do is to get a book and start doing spore prints. Learn the jargon for mushroom identification and what differentiates one from the other. Also HIGHLY recommended is to go for mushroom walks with someone who knows what the f--k that they are doing. Learn the deadly poisonous ones, they are mostly confined to one family. good luck
Funny thing about "faux" news. They would dearly love to go into Canada but they dasn't. The Canadians have laws about knowingly prevaricating on a news presentation. Apparently there are large fines. Also, it is very popular in israel.. I believe it is the major source of "world news" over there.
Dear JWP, I don't think you read history too carefully. The founding myths are not much different than Israel's. Founding fathers were real estate developers who wanted into the Ohio Valley. The British were keeping them out. Sound familiar?
I think the US of A owns that title, greatest terrorist org in the world.
Hey eek, it's Israel that supports the violence. do you remember that the first hit in "cast lead" was the police cadets. now you complain that Hamas can't control all the resistance. gimme a break
So GF, the Israeli Interior is caught in a blatant lie and some posters were upset. I think it is always best to let the dust settle before any assessment. I personally don't believe much of anything out of the mouths of Bibi's boychiks.
@Kathleen, think Manuel Noriega. Still in lockdown. They moved him from florida to France.
Obama and "the lobby" are lucky that the great American people are so amazingly ignorant of history and geography. You could only sell this crap to dummies.
The word "terrorism" has morphed. It was initially a tactic of the French Govt. How is it that the policies of Israel regards to the Palestinians not terrorism. Just because they have helicopter gunships and tanks etc doesn't mean that the tactic used by the IOF is anything other than terrorism. You could apply that to US tactics in the middle east as well.
Just a pogrom, nothing to get excited about. >>
>>> "A pogrom (Russian: погром) is a form of violent riot, a mob attack, either approved or condoned by government or military authorities, directed against a particular group, whether ethnic, religious, or other, and characterized by killings and destruction of their homes and properties, businesses, and religious centres. The term usually carries connotation of spontaneous hatred within the majority population against certain (usually ethnic) minorities, which they see as dangerous and harming the interests of majority.<<<<<
Not really hophmi, but it would be better than what we got. We have a disaster in the making.
"I have the tape-- I have to dig that out."
Oh dear Phil, are you tape recording? There are cheap digital recorders that can post it all on mp3 so easily
The Brits tried to give Uganda to the zionists but they unfortunately turned it down and insisted on Palestine.
Doesn't anyone realize that Venezuela is an OPEC member and therefore deals with Iran and Libya etc on a regular basis. So if Chavez offers to mediate it probably comes from a familiarity with Qaddafi Duck. The NY Times regularly slanders Chavez. Their reporter on Venezuela is Simon Romero who basically represents the opposition. Romero is on a par with the inimitable Judith Miller.
while we are on the subject........
Facebook Caves in to Demands of Israeli Radical Right
link to alternativenews.org
It might be that you are young. In the sixties the Vietnam War was a "BIG DEAL". My father didn't talk to me for 15 years after I protested the war. It is probably not an exact analogy but families were torn apart by this.. ... Like I said I admire the rabbis for doing what should be or needs to be done.
I too admire the rabbis, but I think that this points to so many Jews who are moral midgets keeping their mouths shut when they are aware of what is going on. The rabbis are merely doing the right thing.
Witty is afraid that the resolution, if passed, would make the Israelis uncomfortable and thus even more intransigent. Poor wounded psyches of the Israeli Jews must be considered. They are already quite paranoid.
The only person I ever met who hated Jews was married to one and had a Jewish father.
Now we know what real de- ligitimization looks like. I love it.
Wow, was there hasbara all the way back in exile? In college I read Flavius Josephus's "Antiquities of the Jews". It is considered to be a reliable tome as to the oral histories written at the time of Christ. In it he says the Samaratins were in exile in Egypt with the Jews and they converted to Judiasm and followed Moses through the wilderness. When they returned to Israel to build the 2nd temple the Jews told the Samaratins to get lost and they weren't really Jews after all. This sounds familiar to me. Maybe the Palestinians are the descendants of those people.
Expect Israel to act out of panic.
What happens when the uprising spreads to Jordan? I think Israel will go literally ballistic.
eeek is playing his lines for schoolchildren in case any are following this blog.
In the same issue I noticed a rave for Glen Beck. Unfortunately FOX news is dominant in Israel. That should give us a "clue" to the Israeli state of mindlessness.
Witty, as far as I am concerned, it is not at all about changing Israelis' minds. I'm talking about middle class American minds, the ones without information on the reality of the treatment of Palestinians. Once they wise up your "Israel's" goose is cooked. I doubt very much that BDS will have an impact in Israel. It's the byproducts and the blowback that will turn the table.
Witty, I don't think BDS will have an economic impact. It will however have an impact on the educational front. It will make certain people wonder,"what is this about?".
Richard, if you are complaining about a lack of control, you should remind yourself that the police academy graduation was the first target in the glorious Cast Lead assault or so I recall. How do you recall it?
Too bad he didn't include a copy for Al-Jazeera. Would have been a sly move. The western press would be busy rebutting.
Oh oh, I get it now. this is Phil's favorite band. Oh the agony.
Isn't Helena from the defunct Beirut foreign desk of the Christian Science Monitor? I recall following Israel's invasion of Lebanon in the 80's in that paper. The coverage was very good and revealing of Israel's crime. Did anyone else on this blog read this at the time?
Doesn't anyone read Robert Fisk. He has been covering the ME for ever so long. He is my nominee. Robt Fisk risks his life to get the word out.
Can Witty be the joker?
annie, it's a quote from the "Second Coming" by W B Yeats and this poem has a wonderful resonance today.
William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)
THE SECOND COMING
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
thanks for the dose of history.
Linda J, Yes yes yes!! There is a only a one party system. The Dems suck. It would be great if somehow enough people could mount a challenge with a 3rd party. I was once an organizer for the greens, but I found them to be totally white bread and unwilling to reach out to farm workers etc. Maybe it was a local problem. I certainly discouraged me.
Witty, are you finally admitting that Zionism is the problem? Or only the revisionist Jabotinskyites? Or are you having what I like to call a "junior" moment? Seems to me that Zionism and especially the Ashkenazi Jews are the crux of the trouble. Hebron in the 30's was made ugly by the Ashkenazis, the "oriental" Jews had long been there is relative harmony. Wow Witty, I am amazed.
Yigal Amir was a member of the Golani Brigade
If there is a "HELL" buttheads lke this are in for a very hot time. They underwrite murder and theft. Probably most politicos will end up there if such a place exits.
I like your mother a lot. Have you seen the trailer for "Alice"? It's about a Holocaust survivor who refuses to hate. Too bad there aren't more like her, or are some of the survivors gifted with better spiritual tools than their "heirs"? I have to remind myself of beautiful Israelis that I know. Rage is the wrong answer.
link to youtube.com
Let's not forget that Turkey applied for membership in the European Union in the 80's and has been set on hold all this time. They have been kept at bay for largely racist reasons. It is not only the US who has soured the Turks on the West.
Hey, lighten up, he isn't responsible for the deaths of any Jews. Goys don't count.
I think Witty is merely a useful tool to make the site "appear" more balanced. I have little trouble sliding right past the "Witticism". He does drive Chaos nuts.