Total number of comments: 98 (since 2009-08-12 22:16:59)
not yet comfortable giving personal info when IP issue is involved
Showing comments 98 - 1Page: 1
Gus Savage link is not working - can you fix?
Here here Clif Brown!! I myself have 'intermarried' and have mixed blood kids - who are regularly complemented for their looks, behaviour and achievements!
Never ceases to amaze me to hear about meetings like one described in this article.
The group is not so much looking to figure out what is the right thing to do, but rather what is the right thing to do FOR THEM.
Thinking first about yourself always, in the end, leads to just more problems.
I'm all about dissociating myself and my government from Israel in its current form - and trying to get a fair and stable resolution to the border issue begun in 1948.
Been on this issue since 9/11 - slowly beginning to understand roots of anti-semitism and I fear it's resurgence - it's like watching someone slowly fall down the stairs for 15 years and not being able to do a thing about it.
W Jones - what the heck are you talking about 'Catholics as a minority trying to prove themselves militarily, going back to the Civil War'
Never, ever, heard of that before.
Very different from this?: "Service was simply what people did. It’s the way neighbors helped each other and looked out for one another. It’s what the French historian Alexis de Tocqueville found so remarkable about our democracy and its people in the nineteenth century. Service to others. Service to your country... Service meant that when your country called, you answered the call. It would never have occurred to anyone to question it. If the president said he needed you, that was enough."
Please elaborate on your sense of service - we unsophisticated midwestern Catholics need some learnin'.
And I'd really come to like and respect you - please help me.
No I don't see how I am reading it wrong. But whatever anyway.
I don't see how that judgement is germane to the article and I find it offensive/supercilious/ethnocentric/anti-gentilic/etc...
Quote: When David Frum said that Chuck Hagel was qualified to serve in the State Department's Near East Affairs bureau, it was an ethnic crack. He was saying, Hagel is an isolationist and an "Arabist," of the sort Bill Kristol thought he had successfully purged from the Republian Party. (end of Frum's thoughts). (Beginning of Phil's thoughts) Hagel does seem like a throwback to the James Baker realist school. He doesn't seem like a philo-Semite. He's a midwestern Catholic, not particularly sophisticated.
Can you help us Phil? How about a little respect for us midwestern Catholics?
And what is this about? Update: I removed my comment about Hagel's son being named Ziller and going to a Catholic university as stupid and offensive. Apologies.
So calling midwestern Catholics unsophisticated isn't stupid and offensive?
And just what exactly was Davey Frum inferring?
Actually - I don't think it was still part of what Frum was saying - it was a comment from Phil as I read the paragraph.
Again I ask Phil - what exactly is that supposed to mean?
"He's a midwestern Catholic, not particularly sophisticated."
Excuse me - what exactly is that supposed to mean?
This is one of the main reasons I follow IP. One is to stop having my money sent to support the unfairness. The other is concern about just what exactly is going to happen once the 'ordinary people' become aware of just what exactly has been going on all this time. The more I watch this stuff (since 9/11, now 11 yrs) the further back the rubber band is getting stretched - boy it's gonna hurt when it snaps back. We'll see.
Out here in the boonies (mid-west) it is fairly well understood/known that you may or may NOT be getting a bright person when you meet/consider hiring a Notre Dame graduate. That's because legacy can count for so much with them.
Perhaps a Harvard graduate will be looked at similarly - if Jewish, maybe the kid isn't really all that bright.
Jodi Rudoren writes:
“while death and destruction is far more severe in Gaza than in Israel, it seems like Israelis are almost more traumatized. The Gazans have a deep culture of resistance and aspiration to martyrdom, they're used to it from Cast Lead and other conflicts, and
they have such limited lives than in many ways they have less to lose.”
“And I've been surprised that when I talk to people who just lost a relative, or who are gathering belongings from a bombed-out house, they seem a bit ho-hum”
My first tears in Gaza came just now reading her piece about what it's like to be in Jerusalem, where she brought her 2 sons for "a year in which their world became bigger and more complicated, since everything in their lives up until now had been measured out in equal units of comfort and Lego."
Do these lines not mark her as ‘culturally bound’ within her Judaism and frankly racist?
How can you keep her on as correspondent in Jerusalem with good conscience?
You should send someone who at least has a chance of being objective!
Shame on you!
Wow. Clearly an asymmetical situation.
'I just get on my knees and pray...we don't get fooled again!'
Calling my congressman now.
"just like straight people, can get in trouble, lose our jobs and be publicly ridiculed when we have sex with someone who isn’t our spouse."
When you marry someone, you take a vow/make a promise. When you cheat on your spouse it marks you as a moral defective, an oath-breaker. Argue away, but my advice is: 'Never go into business with/trust a man that cheats on his wife (or husband, in the gay case) because he'll lie to anyone'. I am assuming gay people will take marriage as seriously as heterosexuals - should I not?
The specifics of this case will come out over time, but yes you really should NOT trust those people that cheat on their spouses - there really is something wrong with them morally. and you'll know that after they violate your trust too.
God I'm old fashioned aren't I. I even plan to pay off my mortgage - what a cad I am.
Here's the link: link to youtube.com
Actually, as you can get your Vitamin D in a tablet you need not expose yourself to the carcinogenic rays of the sun to get your Vitamin D. Sorry!
Sunscreen is not causing osteoporosis - just get grandma a tablet a day and she'll be fine.
But if young women choose this method for getting Vitamin D, I'm all for it. Just so long as they don't complain about possible consequences (when daddy finds out, etc.).
I myself send an email out about the AP and NYT reports when they first went out (I have an email list I keep updated on IP) and had to send an update once more info was known.
At this point, I have to say I'm really not sure where the story ends. I have more questions than answers:
Where did this guy get the money?
Who actually made the film (he seems to be a con-man, not a film producer)?
Who did the Arabic translation of the provocative trailer?
Who put it out on YouTube at this time and why?
Who exactly killed out Ambassador in Bengazi? Or aided/abetted in the killing?
The situation is evolving at this time - I for one am waiting for the dust to clear (if it ever will). And for the record it was embarrasing to find out AP and NYT had it wrong initially. FWIW - I think the 'felonious hooliganism' charge might apply to the Basile guy (or whatever his name is) but I'm not a DA.
Ok - guess you are joking. If not please provide background. If you are joking, I'm not laughing. Casting aspersions on a US President is not my idea of humor.
Krauss - Please back up your claim of anti-semitism against former President Carter, or retract it.
Reminds me of the girl at Abu Ghraib - Lynndie England?
What is with this guy? Enough!
Why the big platform for this guy?
I find a lot of this offensive/off-putting at least.
What a condescending blow-hard - 'rah rah Jews!' - WTF?
Mooser - Just so long as you don't complain when others get funny/sarcastic with something you value/believe/respect.
Jesus's ideas were and remain radical. Total selflessness, lack of materialism, willing to sacrifice yourself for the sake of others, etc.
Jesus never validated the inquisition, so don't imply he did. Get real.
I remain unmoved as to the idea that the quotes provided from bible out of context have somehow validated the idea that Jesus was 'less than righteous'.
Let's stay focued on this site at the task at hand. Calling other people's Gods names is not productive. If I ever do so, please correct me.
#1 - it's part of a parable - refers more to the time of final judgement when Christ returns (end times) and will be for God to implement at that time, not us (that's my reading). If you want to twist stuff (or if so-called followers of Jesus want to do evil and twist this into something else) you can, but don't think Jesus was saying he wanted to have those that won't follow him NOW killed, but rather that there will be an ultimate judgment (after he's gone a while...get it, it's a parable). Here's a more complete reference:
11 As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. 12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. 13 Calling ten of his servants,[a] he gave them ten minas,[b] and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ 15 When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. 16 The first came before him, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant![c] Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made five minas.’ 19 And he said to him, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’ 20 Then another came, saying, ‘Lord, here is your mina, which I kept laid away in a handkerchief; 21 for I was afraid of you, because you are a severe man. You take what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 He said to him, ‘I will condemn you with your own words, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, and at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’ 24 And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to the one who has the ten minas.’ 25 And they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten minas!’ 26 ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”
As I suspected, it's hard to find something to back up your unfounded and inflammatory claim. This comment of yours (in my opinion) has no place on Mondoweiss.
If we were at a dinner party we'd now be having a scene - and when everyone realized what it was about you wouldn't be to welcome anymore.
Last post by me calling you out on this. Any response Woody Tanaka?
Woody - Can't let this one go by without questioning. Which teachings of Jesus Christ's were 'very much less than righteous'?
Name one teaching of Jesus Christ that was 'less than righteous' - please.
How so? Please elaborate on the 'classic anti-semitic blood libel' part of Alareer's article. Thanks.
Thanks Annie - Was very incensed by the post the other day - didn't realize there was a second on the same topic. Appreciate your following up. Will use the archive function in future.
Was an entire THREAD removed? I can see one or two comments being removed (and replaced with 'this comment was removed') but an entire thread?
Phil - Why was my comment deleted? Looks like an entire string of comments that began with Fredblogs entry justifying the US Embassy's asking whether the citizen was Jewish as it might relate to how Israel looked at the US citizen.
Am I getting old? I can no longer find that thread. Thanks.
'Of course they asked if she was Jewish, that’s like a lawyer asking his client if he is underage (it matters to the court so it matters to the lawyer). It matters to the people doing the deporting, so it matters to the embassy. There is no right to be in a country of which you are not a citizen, if they want to deport you for any reason or for no reason at all, they can....'
Fredo, it should be noted that being Jewish is not the same as being an Israeli citizen. The US State Department can ask if you are an Israeli citizen, but if you identify yourself as an American citizen to the US State Department they should not ask your ethnicity (are you Jewish, Irish, etc.) - that should be irrelevant - all rights and benefits of citizenship are fully yours within the USA or in any other nation, regardless of ethnicity.
Believe me, you do not want the government asking who's a Jew and who's not.
Just sent this by email to Senator Kirk:
His website: link to kirk.senate.gov
Just a quick note regarding your recent legislation proposal: "It shall be the policy of the United States with regard to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) that a Palestinian refugee is defined as a person whose place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who was personally displaced as a result of the 1948 or 1967 Arab-Israeli conflicts, who currently does not reside in the West Bank or Gaza and who is not a citizen of any other state."
Did you really intend to not count the children and grandchildren of persons displaced in 1948 or 1967 as refugees?
This thinking could be applied to the Jewish claim on Israel thru a similar 'refugee' status lasting hundreds to even thousands of years.
Seems a bit one-sided, but I would like to hear what you have to say about this question.
farsnews.com link is bad - can you update it?
Of course guns make us safer - can you imagine what a pain it would be to try and fight an armed populace like the US - have to take every street in every town? If, that is, we all have the courage to fight and die for our freedom. In this sense, the Afghans and Gazans have shown a lot of fortitude - whether you agree with them or not - OMG I just pulled a Guillen of my own!!!
Handgun/Machine gun deaths in the inner city are tragic, but are not a reason to disarm the populace. Rather we might consider legalization of now illicit drugs or some other change to our drug policy.
Maybe you laugh, but I just played a hockey game with only 5 guys and a goalie on my team vs a team of fireman with four lines (20 guys) - and we tied them after an overtime. That's why we play the game, why we fight - you don't know the outcome and couldn't live with not knowing if you could have prevailed. It's an attitude, a way of life. Like the expression 'The difference between an adventure and an ordeal is attitude'.
Don't forget - the people have all the rights, execept those explicitly given to the government.
Have to say I have sympathy for Sin Nombre's comments below about the 'road paved by the PC police'. You just can't believe the mixture of fear and cognitive dissonance and looked of awed disbelief I get when the topic of IP comes up and I hold my ground - especially bankers, they seem like they're afraid for me. I tell 'em - just back me up once we make it safe to speak out.
End of Rant
Just read on Guillen. Not similar comparison. Guillen works in sports and is paid much because it is popular. To lose his job because he alienated Cuban in Miami is reasonable because the team needs to fill seats/get popular and Guillen just messed that up. Kinda like a CEO driving the company into the ground should be fired.
Looks like his Mea Culpa will allow him to keep his job anyways.
Pointing out that Israeli policies are immoral and getting called an anti-semite is NOT similar to what happened to Guillen. However, if pressed most conservatives (I think) would aknowledge Guillen's freedom of speech, but would also aknowledge that team management might have to let him go (Guillen is not free from consequences of his speech).
Believe me, I'm sure I get invited to less dinner parties, etc and have lost friends due to taking a stand on IP - I don't complain about the consequences of my speech; but do have a shotgun in case the government starts trying to limit it (lot of good that'll do me).
Sin Nobre - You know what people are going to call you right?
Conservative!!! Maybe even a PALEO-Conservative!!!
You mean you would actually rather be FREE than SAFE???? You're more concerned about the rules of the game than the outcome?? You think only FREE men can be moral??
...or as Dirty Harry used to say 'He's a sniveling simp'.
Glad to hear this getting out in the open like this. Lee is not facually incorrect, but is tactfully and tactically lacking.
It is interesting to watch others awaken, just remain hopeful that when the scales fall from the masses eyes that more bad stuff won't happen to innocent folks.
Shocking isn't it. That some people in a free society would choose not to patronize an establishment based on it's real or percieved support Isreal. Even if it was an organized boycott - it's part of the marketplace of ideas concept.
IDF stint does not seemed to have hurt Rahm Emmanuel...
Where is the video?
GF - Not sure if you're trying to change the focus/deflect or what, but a careful re-reading of the post will reveal that it was this guy Weisenfeld who brought up his mother.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
American - I wonder too whether the idea of the chosen people for Jews is taken to imply superior status or superior obligation - seems the Zionists feel some kind of superior status judging from their actions, but I haven't asked one lately. Any Zionists available to answer? Orthodox Jews? Reform Jews? I asked an Orthodox friend once to try and give me a quick encapsulation of Jewish beliefs, but he (more or less gently) refused, so I don't know bubkus.
My training as a lowly Catholic/Goyim was the latter (chosen and thus have a superior obligation) and that by our words and deeds we are to be a light unto the world. I was taught that we as Catholics are not better intrinsically because we are favored by God, but that we should feel lucky to have been favored with the knowledge of Christ's message and thus we become obligated to try and live by it.
This Zionism/Judaism - which is racist, which is 'race favorable/superior' stuff. No one will be splitting these hairs when the blowback starts. I hope the economy picks up soon.
Dilkington - I'm not aware of burial rituals for Muslims, but burial at sea may not fit in with the Muslim idea of a proper burial - which I see no reason to not allow a proper burial according to whatever norms he observes. For Muslims burial at sea may amount to a desecration - that is for them to define.
Makes me think of the Tao Te Ching's admonition:
"Conduct your triumph as a funeral"
Here's the quote from 'Shylock' post the other day:
"And that idea reminded me of Elaine May’s 1972 movie the Heartbreak Kid, maybe my parents’ favorite movie. You may remember that the Charles Grodin character marries a loud Jewish woman and on his honeymoon in Florida he starts flirting with Cybill Shepherd on the beach and the next thing you know he’s broken it off with his wife and has launched a battle to win the shiksa's hand. The movie ends with a wedding and you get to see the Minnesota family that Grodin has won for all his effort and it’s bland and characterless, Eddie Arnold plays it flat/cardigan/tinsel. My parents loved the ending. Well that is part of the message of Merchant of Venice, the Tresnjak production, why would you want to be in with the goyim when you can be part of this great and mysterious tradition."
Whatever. I watched my father slowly die from Lymphoma over 7 years and it was like watching someone slowly fall down a stairwell. Now I sit and watch the Israelis/Zionists digging a bigger and bigger hole for themselves (slowly falling down the stairs) - and know I'll have to listen the 'WHY? WHY the JEWS?' after the shit hits the fan. It just bummed me out to see Phil like that - I thought he was past that stuff.
For now there is hesitation to criticize Israel and Zionism and to bring up the oppression of the Palestinians - inside the US, but not so much outside the US it seems. Not sure that's gonna last.
As I have said before, this does not bode well in the long run for Israel and for Jews whether Zionist or not. This will likely lead to the next outbreak of violence or hatred or discimination of Jews generally...and can you blame the non-Jews for getting mad? Really? I mean really? So there would be NO BASIS for getting angry about this stuff? GET REAL!
BTW I have to say I was really saddened to see the two recent posts on Shylock and the Asian lady antisemite. I had had the impression that Phil was futher along in his deprogramming and had shed the racist/tribalist/insular orientation that often typifies Jews to non-Jews. Bummer to see he's still struggling with that stuff. Shiksa? Goyim? You went pretty low there Phil - did someone get your logon?
I was raised to ask the question: What is the right thing to do? PERIOD. Not Is it good for Irish-Catholics?
And BTW as a boring midwesterner myself - I'll be darn proud of my boring, morally upstanding, midwestern kids - I can only hope. WTF Phil - where is this stuff coming from? There are people suffering and I'm paying for it! I appreciate your blog and efforts, TRULY I DO, but if you have this I don't know what to call it - bigotry? - please keep it to yourself, it doesn't suit you (or at least the idea I had of you).
Take Care and God Bless.
I appreciate all your work
What was heard Witty was the crazy violent Zionists' reaction to the message. The audience was not the Jewish organization, but rather the good 'ole US of A. Word is spreading/ice is melting/tide turning/wind shifting - whatever you want to call it.
The reaction was the most telling. Shapiro should be ashamed of himself and owes that woman an apology - were he a real man he would have defended her from the other crazies. At least that's how I was raised.
From being bewildered and confused on 9/11, I (and others) now stand more and more firmly and with more confidence with each passing day. Each action of Israel and its so-called supporters that confirms my suspicion that 'there's something rotten in Denmark' and only serves to strengthen my resolve to see justice done and all humans involved treated with dignity and respect. Even staunch pro-Israeli Holocaust-guilt ridden good Christian folk are seeing the light. One can speak about IP and 'the linkage' and still be considered mainstream. We've come much further than I ever thought we would in the past nine years.
It's hard work isn't it Witty? Defending the indefensible? What happened to you? You are stuck in some intellectual loop - have you tried therapy?
Is that you Phillips?
I almost can believe I just saw that video - that guy just articulated almost exactly how I have felt since 9/11.
I had the 'I'm not crazy' moment after reading the 18 page Mearsheimer and Walt stuff back in March of 2006 - but this is much closer to my heart.
How do we advance this kind of discussion?
the 'night flower' rides again...
Quote: from link to jta.org
"Rosen, 65, is charged under the 1917 Espionage Act, but not for spying. The section cited in the indictment deals only with handling sensitive information.
Rosen is no stranger to charges of chutzpah -- and worse. But when he was one of the top figures at the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, he made a point of wielding his brashness away from the limelight. Every conversation, every lunch with a journalist would begin with a perfunctory "This is all off the record." His reputed motto, recorded by Jeffrey Goldberg in a 2005 New Yorker profile, was "A lobby is like a night flower: It thrives in the dark and dies in the sun."
Signed. I don't think you have even be an Alumnus to sign. The more the merrier.
Got this email from someone I forwarded this article to, seems the press release maybe was indeed the same in english and hebrew. Can anyone verify?
email from my friend:
link to pmo.gov.il
Security Cabinet - in recent days political discussion is a comprehensive policy adaptation Israel against the Gaza Strip.
The Senate Prime Minister summed up as follows:
* Change the system to allow an expansion of civilian goods entering the Gaza Strip;
* On expansion of the entry of controlled substances and civilian projects.
* Means of maintaining existing security arrangements and measures to prevent the entry of weapons and combat support;
Cabinet will meet soon to decide on steps to implement this policy.
Israel expects the international community to the immediate release of Gilad Shalit.
The Security Cabinet conducted an extensive discussion over the last two days regarding adjustments in Israel’s Gaza policy.
It was agreed to:
* Liberalize the system by which civilian goods enter Gaza.
* Expand the inflow of materials for civilian projects that are under international supervision.
* Continue existing security procedures to prevent the inflow of weapons and war materiel;
The Cabinet will decide in the coming days on additional steps to implement this policy.
Israel expects the international community to work toward the immediate release of Gilad Shalit.
Shall I take your silence to mean you have no citations to back up your claim of M&W describing the 'Israel Lobby' as monolithic, evil, and/or illegal?
C'mon. Let's have at it.
Still waiting Mr. Witty....
Where to M&W describe the lobby as monolithic, evil and/or illegal???
Please provide citations, if possible.
The thesis is quite clear.
Here are the first two paragraphs of that seminal article back in 2006:
"For the past several decades, and especially since the Six-Day War in 1967, the centrepiece of US Middle Eastern policy has been its relationship with Israel. The combination of unwavering support for Israel and the related effort to spread ‘democracy’ throughout the region has inflamed Arab and Islamic opinion and jeopardised not only US security but that of much of the rest of the world. This situation has no equal in American political history. Why has the US been willing to set aside its own security and that of many of its allies in order to advance the interests of another state? One might assume that the bond between the two countries was based on shared strategic interests or compelling moral imperatives, but neither explanation can account for the remarkable level of material and diplomatic support that the US provides.
Instead, the thrust of US policy in the region derives almost entirely from domestic politics, and especially the activities of the ‘Israel Lobby’. Other special-interest groups have managed to skew foreign policy, but no lobby has managed to divert it as far from what the national interest would suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that US interests and those of the other country – in this case, Israel – are essentially identical."
You will have to provide the paragraphs where they describe the Lobby as monolithic, evil, and/or illegal as I don't find any. I'll wait.
I'll not let you off that easy - please expand beyond 'polemic'. I have not heard a criticism of 'The Israel Lobby' that holds water. Please have at it - I am eager to learn.
May God have mercy on your soul eee.
Couple thoughts. As a native born Catholic Irish kid from Chicago (who had nothing to do with the Holocaust nor the creation of Israel), seeing my country reacting to 9/11, etc and ending up in Iraq for unclear reasons (but now knowing that many made concerted efforts to get the US into war in order to further the interests of Israel), hearing my representative say 'they're getting their licks in while Bush is in office' during the Gaza offensive last year (and knowing I am paying for it with money and my freedoms), taking my shoes off before flights, and seeing Jewish men lead Goldman Sachs and the Fed, and Treasury - with the current debt problems (now hearing GS sold debt to Greece and shorted it) - I remain sanguine, but am concerned what Joe six pack will do when he figures out 'what all these Jews have been up to'.
Our boys were sent to war, our money goes overseas. The Taliban and Khalid (KSM) tell us they hate us because of our policy vis a vis Israel-Palestine, but that signal is degraded/filtered...why? by whom?
I think your blinders regarding what triggered Nazi actions remain on your head at your own peril - potentially. It's not an attractive truth, but whatever the truth is - it should be argued out in the full light of day.
OK - So we are shut out of considering any role that Jewish or Zionist actions or efforts might have had in creating an environment where ordinary people did extraordinarily evil things. So its 'all the german's fault' - we can assign blame only there?
So Jews and Zionists could not have had any historical role simply because they were victimized? Well that will suit the Palestinians quite well in today's environment, won't it.
I'll take the truth (as far as we are able to find it) over what suits anyone's political or racial agenda. Taking time to consider various causes of the Holocaust - any cause - can't hurt, and might help.
I still feel this is just like the thread on suicide bombing - some just never got past the idea that suicide bombing is 'BAD' and couldn't begin to consider as valid a study of why and how it tends to occur.
For what it's worth - I'm with Psychopathic God on this one and the reason I have been following this crapola since 9/11 is first to try and determine the 'best interests of the US' and how to best proceed from a foreign policy perspective, and also to try and avoid a major anti-semitic backlash.
Looking into pre-Holocaust events may prove useful in trying to help avoid a second Holocaust and does not imply any sympathy with Nazi ideas or actions. Just as looking into why people are suicide terrorists does not imply sympathy with suicide terrorism (this discussion occurred a while back on this blog).
Chaos - all they'd be asked for (and during a routine police stop for another reason, i.e. they can't be pulled over/harassed for being 'hispanic') is their DRIVERS LICENSE!!!
I believe in enforcing the law - even when its not convenient. You?
I find this immigration debate all too often soft-headed.
You da man, Avi. Sorry I got pulled into it. Goodnight.
So we have PEP - when any mentation about I/P is verboten. Now BDS is introducing PESB - when any mentation about Suicide Bombing is verboten.
What's up with that? Is this his personal blind spot or something?
Isn't this why we had the Renaissance? So we could think for ourselves?
You are still stuck on that bump in the carpet.
Show me the sentence in the article or book that 'justifies or legitimizes' suicide bombings. Explaining why and understanding motivations does not justify or legitimize - it merely illuminates and helps provide understanding.
I agree with you that there is no moral justification for suicide bombings. On the other hand, I have to allow for some doubt about what a person can be driven to and what I would myself be able to tolerate without acting out in anger. I am a weak sinner and am not to judge others - walk a mile in another man's shoes, etc. These are terrible acts, but learning about them is not the same as some sanctioning them.
Murder is also without moral justification, but occurs and is studied and is often justified - what is difficult for you to process regarding suicide bombing?
Who is justifying suicide bombings? The article and Pape's book (which you really should read - obviously as it seems you are stuck at the 'morally wrong' bump in the carpet and can't get your wheels over it) DO NOT JUSTIFY suicide bombings, but rather investigate the nature of suicide bombings - where they occur, profiles of who has performed them, what motivates those who perform them, etc.
Attempting to understand why something occurs allows one to potentially learn how to possibly mitigate or avoid that something.
Studying/Learning is NOT MORAL SANCTION OR JUSTIFICATION.
Why do suicide bombings occur? In a word: Hopelessness.
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. "
That says 'United States' right? Not Israel, right?
So this is #4 - Everything sucks. Of the 4 part technique for dissembling Hasbara - yes?
...or am I missing the point Phil?
By the way - any thoughts on countering the 'Israel is the only democracy in the middle east?' argument? Much obliged.
Campaign Finance Reform - but HOW?
You sure? I figure this site and folks like Weiss are trying to level the 'informational disadvantage' of Americans (breaking the matrix, popping the bubble, whatever you call it). Maybe the assumption that by changing attitudes in the US by spreading knowledge might change US foreign policy - and that US foreign policy would likely dictate outcomes/peace deals/long-term armistices, etc - is wrong. You figure Israel can go it alone without the US's support?
Also I would question your assumption that this blog targets American Jews. Rest assured pieces of this site are emailed off to friends and family regularly - many of whom are non-jewish folks. In a dark room, even a small crack of light is easily seen...
Anyone else have thoughts on this comment - seems like a fairly central point has been raised - I've been off line for a day or so and thought I'd find many responses to this post...
Mooser - please expand/explain. Not sure I understand your idea.
Agree. My brother says: Accept people for what they reveal themselves to be.
Oh I do see that he is a seeker. As I empathize fairly closely I was curious about how he might classify himself. I don't consider myself an anti-semite, but I've had to develop thicker skin about being called one as I have chosen to pursue the truth about the ME and IP regardless of where it leads. Thank God for Mearsheimer and Walt
Ethnic identity politics - I am a simple minded man, but if I understand that idea you mean getting people to vote/act/talk a certain way as a means to defend 'us' from 'them' - and basing 'us' on ethnicity/race/religion?
Sure its pervasive - it's stupid and counterproductive and probably can't stand up to more that a few minutes of thoughtful critique - but that doesn't mean its not popular. Hell I spent 30 minutes trying to understand why my hockey teammate supports the bailout of finance and all I got was - 'we avoided a depression', no supporting detail, nothing, nada - and the man is a CPA and Attorney. Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot (just saw that today here and love it).
It's fun watching the wheels go 'round - but I have kids so I have to jump in sometimes and try to fix GLARING, OBVIOUS, HUGELY EXPENSIVE, problems based on misunderstandings and a lack of moral fibre/character.
end of rant
Not a bad summary Psycopathic God - it's sort of a process - denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. Acceptance of what though: That there are folks that push their agenda real hard?
So are you saying that at this point you consider yourself an antisemite, an agnosto-semite (indifferent), anti-zionist, or just a goy aware of 'reality' ? Want to pick? It is a free country, so you don't have to - yet.
My 2 cents - if your wife can't specifically say why she believes what she believes and give examples, I would say that's just gossip and actually unfounded gossip - potentially very destructive stuff. Just because it relates to possible anti-semitism doesn't change what it is - unfounded gossip and basically character assassination (albeit fairly private character assassination).
More generally, I submit that the US is a free country and so long as the law of the land is not anti-semitic or anti-black or etc, individual citizens of the US have every right to have whatever opinion they want to have - they can be sanctioned socially and can possibly run afoul of equal opportunity laws or the like, but they do have the right to be racist, anti-semitic, tea-baggers, 9/11 truthers, etc. It's a free country - men fought and died for that. Marketplace of ideas, etc.
Link is bad - do you have another one?
Your concern that 'I get my jewish ass to Israel before the next big anti-semitic explosion' is one of the reasons I follow this issue. It is a concern of mine that this issue and how forcefully the pro-Zionists elements push their agenda will result in some blowback in the future. How that manifests itself, I can't say, but it is a concern of mine and I feel is a legitimate one.
As I spend time discussing the issue with friends, family and aquaintences (when it comes up), over time I can see a realization occurring that maybe Israel doesn't deserve our unquestioning support. My problem is: How do I maintain my values as a Catholic and pursue justice for both Palestinians and Israelis? If in doing so I make pro-Zionists and Hama look bad, that's tough. On the other hand I don't want to incite anti-semitism, or shill for Israeli state-sponsored terrorrism.
So much easier to just disengage and 'stop worrying' as I am so often advised. Besides 'Israel is the only Democracy in the middle east and an important ally - we can't 'sell them out', you're a neville chamberlain if you do'.
Having Zionists around does make your life more complicated...
I guess giving Israel credit for good deeds in Haiti is like watching a serial killer or other sociopathic type mow an old woman's lawn (or some other charitable thing). It's hard to soften your heart and accept the gesture as authentic, especially after watching such clear-cut, consistent, regular efforts at hiding their misdeeds or creating justifications for unjustifiable actions.
It's like saying 'shouldn't everyone get the benefit of the doubt?'. Well after following this stuff for the past now almost 9 yrs since 9/11 - Israel no longer gets the benefit of the doubt - they used up those credits with me long ago.
Actually Mooser - most folks weren't sure what to think and so did not protest the war, but rather trusted (perhaps foolishly) that our elected officials were doing there best to pursue America's interests. M&W's argument is that the Israeli Lobby was a necessary ingredient and an important one, but not sufficient to be causal alone - 9/11 had to happen in order for the 'securing the realm' memo to begin to be acted upon with broad support.
It may help you feel better to say stuff like: 'Sounds like a bunch of people are getting bitter cause their little war didn’t work out as good...So natch, let’s blame the Jews.'
But it won't help any of us when it actually happens.
FWIW: Just back from the Blackhawks game tonight and thought I'd add a comment about 'the heartland'. Between periods 'shoot the puck' always has a kid, a guy, and an attractive single female. The guy tonight had a jewish name and I noticed he got a very cool reception and even boos from the crowd - am I overanalyzing this?
An 80+ year old lady just told me the other day 'This is a depression honey - next year will be much worse". I do worry what's coming if the economy really tanks. Anyone else find it's much easier to discuss this stuff with folks than it was even two years ago - the meme that we're being had is spreading. Even the Fox watchers are starting to notice they really have no counter-arguments anymore - especially after Gaza.
I find this letter very telling.
As one becomes aware initially of the problems in the middle east and learns more about US policy, treatment of Palestinians, violations of international law, etc - the initial reaction is incredulousness and even fear that you're an anti-semite for breaking from mainstream thought.
Then as you follow the issue along - looking thru life thru your new prism of scepticism - it becomes clear that Israel (or Zionists, or Jews, or however you want to put it) is quite manipulative and frequently acts in bad faith - and your government enables this behavior in obeisance to evidently powerful Jewish/Zionist interests.
Combine that with realization that your tax dollars are paying for it, swirl in a financial scam by a Jewish guy and a huge bailout of Goldman Sachs and its not too shocking to see a letter like this.
The reason I follow the IP issue is that I feel responsible for the plight of the Palestinians because my government enables their suffering and disenfranchisement. A secondary concern is to avoid an anti-semetic blow-back/pogrom here at home.
Like the Goldstone report, I would ask of folks - 'What part of this letter do you find factually inaccurate? Indelicate, yes but innacurate, no. Neither a cross nor a menora belong on a public building - as a Catholic I would not take great offense at someone calling a cross on a public building 'a monstrosity' because I agree that it does not belong there, is it different if the menora is called a monstrosity?
This letter is the reaction that should concern Jewish people and get them to correct the mistreatment of the Palestinians and all its subsequent implications/repercussions before (and may God forbid) the 'sleeping bear' of anti-semitism reawakens and its too late to do anything about it. I figure this is at least partially why Weiss runs this website. He is part of the solution to this problem.
Witty - "There is obviously very very little support for pursuit of the Arab League proposal. Young Israelis (less than 50, if that is young) regard the territories as normally part of Israel, or within Israel’s right and control. That is the sum total of the world that they have known."
Am I supposed to care that young Israelis have this mindset - and who is responsible for it anyways. The Arab League Proposal is the last best offer. I just can't understant why Israel doesn't take it? Can you tell me why?
Are you kidding me?: "This is the exact attitude which has fucked the Palestinians for the last 60 years. Its people representing them or their struggle that always wants more."
67 borders, international jerusalem/holy sites, compensation for takings in '48 or right of return. Is that how you define 'wanting more'?
While every darn day we see families evicted in east Jerusalem by Israel?
Repent, repent - the day of reckoning is coming!!! I can only fit ~4-5 of you in my basement
I have contact the company thru the 'contact us' page of their website - link to columbia.com - with the following message:
"Are you aware of your Israeli advertising suggesting your clothing is 'Suitable for active work in various areas, including outposts'?
I will no longer purchase your products and will advise friends and family to stop purchases as well until you reply in a way that convinces me the company does not support or condone illegal settlements in the Palestinian west bank by Israel.
Your prompt reply is appreciated."
What moral turpitude Mr. Witty! To me that's the point of having the draft - if you don't support the war enough to send your own children, then you shouldn't support the war at all.
I think it's a great litmus test that would keep us out of a lot of trouble.
Neo-Con's, I would think, don't want the draft - it would stop all these idiotic 'wars'.
Check out http://www.cafepress.com . I have been hoping someone would create a bumper sticker or T-Shirt. Phil and Adam (I believe) can set the price and possible earn a return from purchases but cafepress does all the production and distribution work.
I doubt its that simple - but I'm sure denigration of Hassan as a professional would go over well on Fox News as it is simple, requires no further thought, and applies the psychic balm to the uncomfortable idea that maybe Hassan did have some level of legitimate cognitive dissonance over US foreign policy (not at all to justify his actions - but to understand his mindset). Without this balm people might realize that events like this and 9/11 are an opportunity to apply critical thinking to the accepted central tenets of our foreign policy.
I am headed that way (not listening to NPR) - where do you now go for news?
I laughed, I cried, it was better than Cats.
I am at a loss for words, but it is encouraging to see such idiocy being pursued - reveals the bankruptcy and desperation of their position.
May God have mercy on their souls.
Right - no factual problems are discussed...because there are not factual problems. Just like rebuttals to Mearsheimer and Walt. It's Deja-Vu all over again Yogi.
I must say though that I am encountering less and less 'resistence' as the months go by when I bring IP stuff up....and those that were angry/walked out in the past are now bringing it back up to me (after I promised never to discuss it again with them).
Just like the real estate bubble - lasts longer that you ever think it can and blows up faster than you ever thought it could.
I should re-read popular delusions and the madness of crowds...
Name calling. Wow.
Also Elliot - Am I being labeled an anti-semite?
Elliot: "If anti-Semitism becomes fashionable again in the U.S. it won’t be because of Israel or despite Israel."
What would it be from then?
Where do you get off!!! How dare you claim to know what I do and don't percieve.
"You don’t perceive what Israelis feel. You don’t walk in their shoes. And, you accuse the norm of not walking in Palestinians’ shoes, different ones. That doesn’t apply to me. I empathize, meaning that I consider, “what would I do? what would I feel?”
Classic: 'That doesn't apply to me' - how telling is that comment.
And you sound like your having some kind of existential crisis in the rest of the post. Buddy, the jig is up. IT IS CLEAR ISREAL KILLED PEOPLE FOR NO GOOD REASON IN DECEMBER AND JANUARY.
Cut the mamby pamby. Defenseless children were killed by the hundreds for no discernable reason other than 'it could be done' or 'let's teach them a lesson'. I know about the election night raid, etc. I follow this crap every day. I could barely work for 3 weeks while it went on. How dare you think my only angst is due to Palestinian suffering - I also felt concern for Israel.
The Arab Peace Proposal is still on the table...recognition by 20+ Arab nations is easily attained. Just go back to the '67 borders and normalize relations. What is so hard about that? Do you not have any sense that not taking the deal is becoming increasingly risky for Israel? Do you think all the goyim are idiots?
" It was in the New York Times. That is the topic that Phil presented, a New York Times report. If people don’t know about it, they’re not reading anything. "
Most people are busy raising children and working (you know keeping your A/C working, fixing your car - that kind of stuff) - so they mostly don't read the New York Times. The point is that the internet is allowing alternative media outlets to pop up and generally younger folks are hooking into this. Don't be a snob and please stick to the topic if possible.
Interesting: I recall chatting with a teenager and his 40ish mom during the ground offensive. The mom was clearly not really aware other than in a vague 'Oh those awful Arabs are bothering Israel again' kind of way. What was interesting was the son's reaction to my statements condemning Israeli actions (and foretelling it would all be over by the inaguaration) - he was stunned to see an adult feeling anguish over it - there was a quick look and flash of recognition that he too knew this was really bad. But even then he didn't want to deal with him mom's likely intransigence on the issue and kept quiet.
Richard - I was calling my local congressman every day from when Israel first shelled the graduation ceremony of the Gazan cops. I got no real response until several days into the ground operation when the staffer stated flatly: "They are getting their licks in while Bush is still in office". The timing is just unbelievably convenient - and then it stopped 2 days before the inaguration. I mean - come on.
Of all people I would expect Jewish people to be sensitive to bullying. Many of us 'lurkers' are people actually concerned for Israel and our Jewish friends as well as the Palestinian people. But most of all we are concerned about our children's futures. I have come a long way since 9/11 on my understanding of IP issues, but this Gaza thing really relieved me of any doubt that Israel is largely in the wrong.
There are dinner parties all over this country where guys like me are now willing to bend ears and possible cool friendships and even sacrifice some business relationships if needed to make sure this issues gets aired/thought about. We are doing our homework and we have clean conciences. I am secure in the belief that in the end the truth will be revealed and we will do the right thing and get Israel back within the '67 borders, etc.
If the US economy gets much worse, and history can attest to this - it could get very bad for Jews. Wake up and smell the coffee friend. Search your soul and pursue what is right, not what is 'good for the Jews'. In the long run what is good for the Jews, it seems, usually causes a lot of problems for the Jews. Its your call but now you can't say you weren't warned by a nice Catholic boy to straighten up and fly right. Take Care.
Who runs TIFF and who made this decision to connect it with Tel Aviv?
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