Commenter Profile

Total number of comments: 679 (since 2017-01-27 01:16:34)

Kaisa of Finland

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  • Why I'm keeping my child home from school in Israel on Holocaust Day
    • Great.. Why do I do these stupid mistakes here all the time.. So Great not Grate..

      (Hello.. I would need a "proofreader" here..!!)

    • Keith:

      Well I guess I've grown in this NATO free bubble of ours (Finland, Sweden)here. Ofcourse we have our own army, because we live next to our former conquers, but I don't think we have it because we would ever want to use it, but because if we did not have it, it might give our neighbour temptation to walk over us one more time.

      And yes, our neighbour has nuclear wheapons too, but to dare to use them on us.. I hope the past accident in Tshernobyl showed them, that the air has no borders and if bombing us with their nuclear wheapons, there would be no guarantee, that part of that s..t would not get on their side. And living with a neighbour like that.. I just have to believe the peace is possible.

      By the way, I have always thought that Americans are a bit grazy with their militarism, but then again comes that story I was talking about earlier, the story of "America being Grate".. I've never thought they are Grater than anyone else and if they'd just drop that story which only feeds their own "minds and souls" and change it to wanting to become, lets say, the "Best Wellfare State in the World" that might change a lot..

      Anyway Keith, you might be right, but I still want to believe in negotiation and compromise and in worst cases in boycott and sanctions.. That's how we have now done quite ok here for about 70 years and remembering what our grandparents experienced in the 2nd WW will keep us rather "keeping peace" than searching for wars in the near future for sure.. For the coming generations, if they do not remember the war anymore, they might think other, but all of us, who had a personal connection to the war and the memories of it, you can hardly find grazy militarists here..

    • eljay:

      What do you think, if all of the Palestinians (living in Palestine and around the world) now decided, they would convert to Judaism, would that mean they would then gain the right to return to Israel and live there as equal citizens of Israel, with the other Jewish citizens of the State too??

    • Keith:

      Are you sure that f.ex. the pictures of Vietnam and Hiroshima have not made the European countries to try to prevent such things happening again.. ??

    • Mayhem: "The Jewish population in the world has still not returned to pre-WWII numbers."

      This is what always confuses me.. So are the Jews considered as somekind of a "clean race" or do we talk about the people who have Judaism as their culture and religion..?? Because when you are counting how many Jews there are in the world, do you count those who have converted to Judaism and what about those born Jews who maybe are atheist or converted to something else?? Is there some kind of "pure Jewish blood" or "race" which should be preserved or is it about a religion and culture which is open for everyone to join.. ??

      In these times of genetic research it is easy to prove that most of us are a heavy mixture of many kind of ancestors.. And then again, as a carrier of rear Finnish North-Karelian genes, I see no reason why these genes should be kept pure as we know even from the dogs, that the "purer racial genes", the sicker are the descendants..

      Anyway I still do not know, what we talk about, when we talk about Jews.. Israelis and Zionists are easier for me to understand..

    • Well ofcourse Holocaust was a horibble thing and it is good to know one's history to be able to prevent such happenings to happen ever again, but remembering Holocaust today has become completely something else:

      On one hand, no-one ever remembers to mention f.ex. the Gypsies who also were systematically killed in those same concentration camps as another unwanted group of people. They are forgotten. They are not remembered. I guess they were not important enough for the "story" . On the other hand, "the Holocoust should be remembered as a thing there should never happen again" and still it has become a cruel wheapon to use for getting acceptance for the pain and suffering of the Palestinian civilians who had nothing to do with the case itself.

      I remeber Yuval Harari saying in an interview that a human is the only animal who bases it 's actions into stories (historical, religious.. ) told to them. No monkey nor a rabbit would do so. He used Islamists as an example, but what I thought was that no rabbit would ever move from it's home "territory" just because someone told it that some rabbit ancestors of it's had lived in a country on another continent and that's why it would have right to live there or that there was a book, where it was written that a God had given that rabbit a permisson to live on some other rabbits "territory".

      The actual historical happening of Holocaust has developed to a story to justify certain violent politics. The only Holocaust surviver I met in Israel was the most Pasifistic person I know and his house was always open for everyone in need.. But what separates the historical facts from the stories told to us is, that the stories can always be told another way and they can always be rewritten again .

  • Settlers from Kushner family-funded community attack 3 Israeli grandmothers
    • It is interesting, that if Jared Kushner supported Islamist extremists, he would probably go to court and be judged for it, but when he supports Zionist extremists, there doesn't seem to be any problem with that.. ??

  • I want the world to know
    • Yes, indeed..

      And know that there are people who will talk about you and who will not let the world to forget you and the fact that you are humans - just like us - too!!

  • Beyond apartheid: Fragments from the West Bank
    • TWICE.. For some reason I never seem to get that word spelled correctly..

    • P.s. MHughes976/Roha:

      Thanks for your patience with my English :) And please ask twise, if I seem to be writing (as we say in Finnish) "Pig's German", meaning a language which is not understandable..

    • MHughes976:

      And as we just wrote about the Germans, I just saw an article in the newspage of Finnish Yle that Netanyahu has refused to meet Sigmar Gabriel, the Forgein minster of Germany, who at the moment is in Israel, since he has planned to meet memebers of Breaking the Silence and B'tselem while visiting Israel. The reason given is, that the goverment of Israel can not accept forgein politicians to come and meet these organizations acting against Israel's best.

      So atleast the Germans seem to be doing something.. I remember our Forgein Minister Timo Soini coming back from Israel last summer with a picture of him and Netanyahu smiling, with text written under :"Finland will not boycott Israel.." And the smile on his face, it was large..

    • (heh heh.. so I mixed up too terms: raise and bring up so it became raise up.. But what more can you expect from a Finnish speaker trying to express herself in English.. )

    • MHughes976:

      I think the problem with Germany is not that they'd necessarely be pro-Israel, but the fact that since 2nd WW, each generation of Germans have been raised up with a very heavy collective quilt over what happend in the war and because of that, in Germany, it seems to be impossible to (publicly) critizize Israel in any way.. So I think if other European countries wound stand up boycotting Israel, the Germans would not resist, but because of the hístory, they can not be expected to play an active role in this matter.

    • Well.. It makes me feel complitely helpless..

    • inbound39:

      You know I have just recently realized that the problem in I/P is not Netanyhau, his government or not even the Israelis who vote for them, but the money which comes both from the government of U.S. and the private wealthy Zionists around the world (who support the occupation and the illlegal settlements).

      In Finland the issue in Palestine is rarely discussed, and when it is, it is always very fast silenced by certain politics (with this talk of anti-semistism, holocaust and Palestinians being Islamic terrorists).. And I started to wonder why it is so and after searching some time, found out that Finlands richest man, who now-a-days lives in U.K. is a Zionist Jew, friend of Netanyahu and he has financially supported many members of one of our biggest parties in our parliament.. So even if I could not point out that their standing behind of the Zionists in Israel was caused by this financiall support, it still raises questions, that how can this conflict ever be solved, in case these rich Zionists supporting certain polticians excist even in countries like Finland where we have about 2000 Jews, and we have been all living here mixed for quite a long time now, without any strong Zionist talk, if not counted the small minority of Pentecostals who I think are the loudest Zionists in Finland right now.

      Anyway, my point being, if even here the Zionist money is running inside our politics, how would it look like if we drew a map around the world.. Where is it, who speaks for it and how would Palestinians ever get treated equally, if this Zio money supports those in power almost everywhere. (And I am sure here the people who voted for those candidates, never had an idea that there could be such connections inside their politcs..)

      So it just makes me think that.. There is still a long way to Tippearary.. (sorry this just came somewhere from the back of my mind..)

    • Sorry one more thing: When I mentioned Peacekeepers there above, I meant of course they'd only be by the border, both sides, as long as some kind of permanent solution could be found..

    • And only after writing all that, I just feel exhausted: How did things go so wrong and is there any way to make it better??

    • samibedouin:

      I've lived in Israel and been to Golan and West Bank and almost everywhere and I am very aware of the horrible things there are happening there. Since I am not an Israeli, a Palestinian, a Jew nor a Muslim and I did not speak arabic or hebrew then, it took me some time to learn to know the "truth about Israel". It is some years ago now, when I left last time and as seen in the news things have just gotten worse. I would just want to ask you, do you see any kind of "peacefull" solution which could be possible??

      In my naive thinking I wish we could first "push" the settlers and the IDF out of the WB (By boycott) and maybe have some Peacekeepers in the area to try to prevent violations (like they are in Lebanon), but ofcourse that could only be a short time solution, to give Palestinians in West Bank time to breath and build some kind of life without occupation..

      But then there is Gaza, do you believe the two state solution would be possible?? And one state right now.. ?? A lot would have to change, you to be able to live and move freely with out the IDF breathing in your necks in that one state for everyone.. And being realist, Israelis are not leaving anywhere, so the "peace" should start somewhere, if not permanent solution, but lets say 5 year plan.. ?? And Jerusalem under International law??

      I know I have nothing to say to the conflict itself as being an complete outsider, but
      I would just like to hear your point of view, what kind of solution could you see possible for the Palestinians to live with (I know there are people supporting both one state and two state), if Israelis (zionists) could be "pushed" by a western boycott??

      I know it feels impossible and I don't want to be an intruder, but what do you think, what kind of solution would you see possible ??

      (A guy in West Bank once said to me that he thought that one state could be possible, but not now, maybe after 100 years.. )

  • Crowdfunder for Gaza writer's library gets support from Pollitt, Chomsky
    • Thanks again Annie! I'll start finding out about things. As he said, when they can't travel, lets bring the world to them :)

    • Thanks Eva!

      I know his list is mostly about English classics, but since I am from here, I was thinking, we have many good quality books for children by both Swedish and Finnish authors, translated to english and I think I could get collected some amount of them quite easily.

      If I get them through to Gaza and he doesn't want them to his library, he'll surely know a school/a teacher where to give them to.

      I'll just have to find out how to get the books to him :)

      And thanks to Annie again for the advices she gave!!

    • Thanks Annie!! That is what I was thinking: If I (or someone I know) would be able to go with the books and maybe meet someone who can cross the border, in Egypt or where ever!! That is worth trying!!

      If I'll collect some books first, is it ok, to send him e-mail?? How did you proceed??

      And about this sentence "I wouldn’t want to give them the enjoyment of not letting the package go through.. ":

      You know, I'd rather swim with the books to Gaza myself than give that enjoyment to the IDF people by the border. I've seen the disgusting pleasure on their faces when bullying Palestinians in the WB and I'll do my everything to not to give them anymore reasons for such pleasure!!

      Just want to send some books (and love) to the children of Gaza!!

    • Eva Smagacz:

      I would so much want to collect and send him some good children's books in english.. And I am sure I could get some good ones collected, but do you think there is any real posibilites for him to get them??? Knowing the border policies of Israel, I wouldn't want to give them the enjoyment of not letting the package go through..

      Is there anyway that could make it easier?? - I'd be ready to go personally, if it just helped, but I have a doubt, it would make it even worse.. (These things make me so angry and frustrated and as I experienced in WB, I could easily get myself killed, when not being able to watch that s..t from the side..)

      So is it worth trying??

  • Why prominent Israeli journalist Larry Derfner rejected liberal Zionism in October 2008
    • Maghlawatan:

      I answered to you, but I quess I was censored, since the answer never showed up here.. So end of that discussion.. Take care..

    • Maghlawatan:

      Couldn't agree more with you. I'd have so many stories to tell, but these people who came around 50's and 60's, they were different people. Those I met were not nationalists or fanatics, in my opinion, they were just average nice people mislead to come to Israel to fill up the "Jewish State"..

    • "It is why the society becomes ever more extremist."

      Yes, and I quess the new generations just grow into thinking it's new normal. Those born before 1940's often told another story..

    • Maghlawatan: "Derfner is a thinker and he didn’t go through the Israeli education system so he didn’t get the full brainwash."

      What I found so weird in Israel (among the people I lived with), was that continuous talk of Israel being the best country in the world, and disability to admit that the state was far from perfect, even when not only talking about the problems with the Palestinians. Then sometimes, behind closed doors, I would hear someone to say something.. And then next day in the daylight, the "propaganda" was there again..

      I don't know, if it was because I was "an outsider" or what, but asking too many questions made me face some strange situations and sometimes I was simply politely silenced by the people I knew. It felt like the "outspoken Jewish state of Israel" was a mirage in their heads and criticizing it out loud, would have made the vision to disappear..

      In the end Israel just left me wondering, how can people live in such atmosphere.. Pretending that everything is ok, when they obviously know it is not..

      But that was some years ago, so things might have changed.. And I did not know anyone (in Israel) coming from U.S. So the perspective I got then was ofcourse also different.

  • Passover has become little more than an act of communal hypocrisy
    • MrHuges976:

      Thanks for that point of wiev. Never thought about it that way. I only have my own experience of the Lutheran/Creek Catholic* Easter traditions/celebrations and some Pessachs in Jewish community in Israel and I did think they were a different thing, but of course it was only my personal experience.

      I usually avoid deeper discussions of Biblical/religious texts, 'cause they tend to cause more conflict than understanding between people and I find it so unnecessary, but I wish you have a Good Easter and peace to all of those celebrating it in the area of Palestine and Egypt.

      (*Allthough the text is the same, the emphasis seems to be a bit different)

    • MHuges976:

      "I think that Passover and Easter, the Christian version, are about the absolute supremacy of God, whether his adversary is political power or forces that are regarded as demonic. It’s not about ending slavery, whose continuation the scriptures do not question fundamentally."

      Sorry I must ask what did you mean by connecting Passover and Easter?? Did you know that Easter is not about ending slavery, but about the Crusifiction and Resurrection of Jesus Christ and the main messages of this celebration are grace and forgiveness, symbolicly Jesus died on the cross because all of "our" sins. *

      So allthough they are often celebrated at the same time, Passover and Easter are a not about the same thing. Just wanted to correct incase you thought they were..

      (* note: I am not here to preach, just talking about the differences between these two religions.. "our" = meaning people)

  • Passover in the era of permanent Jewish occupation
    • Each time I see the picture above, I just want to say: "Israel, Israel, look what you have become.. "

  • Israel’s ‘right to exist’ and the Palestinian right to resist
    • Mooser:

      "Perhaps she thinks that even without God or heaven, the words of Jesus have an inspiring and positive part to play in human relations?"

      Thank you Mooser, you hit the point (I would draw a heart here, if I knew how.. :) )

    • Dear DaBakr,

      I think you need some peace, love and understanding.. With that rage you are going to get a heart attack..

    • jd65:

      :) I understand what you mean..

      I think it is a language thing.. In here many of us call ourselves "manner-Christians".. (Maybe the culturally Christian could mean the same..) We celebrate Christmas, Easter and other Christian holidays, respect some Christian values, but going to the Church or showing some kind of "open religiousness" it is not our thing..

      I'd say in the Nordic Countries, where we are mostly Lutherans, it is quite typical.. (Long story made short: Luther "undressed" Christianity of all the gold, decorations and huge celebrations, which propably has affected us this way in a long run..)

      Anyway I did not think of myself that Christian before I lived in a Jewish community in Israel. There was no problem to fit in, but I could surely see certain differences in our thinking coming from our different "religious inheritance", and only after that I have defined myself as "somekind" of Christian.

      And when I said "if there is a God", I meant, I am not an atheist.. I just don't want to belive in a God who would separate people "to the right ones and the wrong ones" as the fanatics in each religion seems to do. And I do not want to be connected to those people..

      Does this make any more sence to you??

    • jd65:

      .. I knew someone would ask.. :)

      Well, I'd say it means I was born in a Christian family and I appreciate certain Christian values, but would NEVER read the Bible as a "true history of a humankind" and for me, if there is a God, I believe it is the same God for us all no matter what you call your religion..

      So I am sure you can find several Christians who would tell you, I am not a Christian and will "go to Hell".. But I am not worried since I do not believe in Heaven either.. :)

      (And the reason why I mentioned it there above was, that some religious Christians have a special relationship with Israel and believe that Israel belongs to the Jews, since "they were the Gods chosen people".. And this is the group of people I do not want to mixed with..)

    • Kaisa of Finland April 9, 2017 at 5:48 pm

      Note: By "religiously converted Jews" I meant those people who had coverted to Judaism not from it.. I did not know how to express it correctly..

    • As an outsider to the conflict in the area of Palestine/Israel (being a non-religious Christian with no Jewish or Palestinian inheritance), I am not sure if the Jews/Israelis them selves agree on what is the definiton of "a Jew"..

      When I was living in Israel I met many religious Orthodox Jews, who said they were against the occupation and the State of Israel since the state was a "man-made project" and not a consequence of a prophetial sight/vision as it was promised in the "Holy Book". (I am sorry, my english is not enough to explain this, I hope people understand what I mean..) They did not serve in the Israelian army either.

      Then again I attended a language course in Hebrew in Tel Aviv, where I met many Russian immigrants, mostly girls, who had just moved in to the country. They were not religious and they maybe had a grandmother who had been Jewish, but to me they were not any more Jewish than I was (me being not Jewish at all).. Still they were becoming citizens of the state and of course supported the idea of the State of Israel.

      Then there were the religiously converted Jews, who I quess should be accepted being as "equal" to the other Jewish people in Israel. And otherwise they were I quess, but then again there were families (not very religious Jews) who did not accept a convert to marry their sons or daughters, since they were not of Jewish blood..

      So if a religious Jew resists the occupation, a non-religious (some-Jewish-inheritance-in-somewhere-in-the-ancestory) supports it, a converted Jew can be a citizen of a Jewish state, but still not enough Jewish to marry a "real Jew".. The whole definiton of a Jew just starts to sound too chaotic to me..

      It sounds like almost anyone can be a Jew, as long as they populate the State of Israel "in a right way". But if it is about "bloodline", religion, culture.. I have no idea, if anyone knows who is a "real Jew".. ??

      As for an outsider, it looked like the nationalists were not so religious and the really religious were against the nationalism and then there were just a chaos of other "what-ever-kind-of" Jews in the between..

      And then there were the Palestinians.. Crying for help..

  • You know your country's in trouble when you're afraid to put on a bumper sticker
    • Keith: "If the global financial system dictates the course of events that won’t be an option. If the 99% are locked into debt peonage, they will have no voice. No choice but to go along with what the oligarchs and corporations decide"

      The balance in the world has always been in constant change.. For how long has the world looked like the way you talk about it??? For a hundred years max. ??

      So in 40 years the Golden Trump towers could be "falling into disrepair" and the oligarchs and big corporations in the way we see them now, a history..

      In China teenagers are watching a liberal Scandinavian Norwegian tv-series (called Skam) from internet against the goverments will and in the Palestine children are filming human right violations with their mobile phones..

      This will change the balance of the world since people are able to find more sides of the stories told by their leaders and under all this anxiety in the world, there are lot of good things happening..

      So I am not so pessimistic about the future..

    • Amigo:

      Thanks for your information.. I wish it all will turn out to be good in the end..

      Brexit kind of showed that we are already a net of people working/studying/living a flexible life here and there inside these same "wider boarders" and closing the boarders do not seem as a step to a better future..

    • Keith:

      Well, what I meant was that EU might change it's form to be better for the ones who stay in. It might get "financially more loose" and concentrate on other issues.. I think the elections in France will show a lot. But since the vote for Brexit and Trump in the White House, the strongest "exit talks" have dissapeared..

      I am hearing more of "lets make it better" talk..

      So the future will show.

      (By the way, Sweden and Denmark are both part of EU, but have both kept their own currency. So Finland is the only Euro country in the North and the currency is not the main issue of EU for me..)

    • Kaisa of Finland April 9, 2017 at 7:35 pm


      I would say, that in my opinion, the young generations in EU have grown to like the freedom to move, study and work freely around the Europe so much, that it is hard for me to believe they would want to close the boarders and turn back inside.

      I am not sure about the Euro as a currency in the future, but to give up the freedom to move and be part of the "European community".. I think we like each other too much to want to give up on it..

      And at least in here, money ain't everything (as we say in Finnish: "It is not about how much money you make, but how little you spend.. " And you can have a pretty good life here with out being a millionaire.. )

      By the way, there was a terror attack in Stockholm couple of days ago (a guy from Uzbegistan drow over some people with a truck in the city) and today there was a concert in the middle of the town for the memory of the victims and the main message was: Sweden will not turn inside, it will not close and let the fear to separate the people and the biggest goal of the country will still be to become the best country of the world in the matter of humanity and a welfare state.

      Discussion is needed of course, but compared to the Israelian way of eternally taking revenge on mostly innocent people, I prefair this model of dealing with the violent attacks better.. But then again, I quess Israel does not compete in wanting to be one of the best welfare states in the world..

      And about the money: The future generations might like to concentrate on saving the planet Earth rather than making lot of money.. At least that's how it looks like now..

    • Kaisa of Finland April 9, 2017 at 5:05 pm

      RoHa/Maghlawatan: As an outsider to the Brexit-issue, I am most interested in what happens with the boarder of North-Ireland and Ireland and what happens with Scotland.. How does the Brexit affect in the Great Britain in that way..

      I think here in the Nordic Countries Brexit rather achieved a discussion of how to make the EU better for just an average EU citizen. Following Finnish, Swedish and Danish EU discussion it seems to me that Brexit actually just made the discussion better. So mostly we are waiting for the next elections in France, but not strong sounds of any more "exits" in here right now..

  • The dispossessed
    • After the 2nd WW some of the Nazis and their helpers realized what they had done and they regreted and suffered of the quilt the rest of their lives. Some of them never did.

      I often wonder are some of these Zionists (soldiers, police, settlers and their supporters) one day going to wake up and realize what they have been doing.. Are they going to be followed by nightmares of their actions.. Or are they really so brainwashed that they honestly believe, all this time they have only been doing the right thing..

      My grandfather, who fought as a young soldier in the front line in the Finnish wars against Russia the years 1939-45, almost never talked about the war, but was deeply traumatized and haunted by nightmares through the rest of his life.. What a waste of life, but he did not have a choice..

      The Zionists could choose differently even today.. So why don't they??

      Are they going to die happy and proud, after killing and bullying all their lives..

  • Head of UN agency resigns after refusing to retract report calling Israel an 'apartheid regime'
    • jon s:

      "Israel, in the 11th Place in the World Happiness Report.. "

      Honestly, do you see this as something to be proud of??

      "Shiny happy people laughing.. " ..while killing, bullying and steeling someones land.. Makes me wonder what kind of human is that.. ??

      Yesterday I saw a part of a documentary telling about the tortoure and suffering in Assad's prisons in Syria. What I was thinking was, that Israel does not differ from it in any ways:

      Shiny happy people laughing.. Enjoying while others suffer..

    • and Jon S, to make the picture even more clear to you:

      This American Jewish girl is carrying a big gun to defend the original land of Palestine from a girl who is a Palestinian..

    • jon s:

      The sickest thing in this "Jewish homeland" of yours is that a random American Jewish girl can come to Israel to serve and volunteer in the army of Israel and say that she is doing it "to come back to her homeland" and to "get bonded with her roots and ancestors there" while at the same time a Palestinian girl who's grandparents were forced to leave from their homes (in the "now-Jewish-homeland-territory-called-Israel") to make space for the "new israelian Jewish citizens", can not come and "get rooted and bonded" with the land, where she actually has her roots and where to her closest realitives have longed since the day they became refugees and were forced to leave their homes there..

      And to someone to claim that this is completely OK, it just is completely not OK. You steel someones land is a crime and there is nothing that will ever change that.

  • UN agency labels Israel 'apartheid regime'-- and Israel likens organization to Nazis
    • Juan R.:

      But the truth is still out there..

    • ..wrong race perhaps... ??

    • catalan: "plenty of unwritten discrimination in Eastern Europe"..

      Buhuu.. In the Eastern Europe there is fully open discrimination of gaypeople, women, Gypsies and all the refugees coming from anywhere else in the world. Non of those groups are insisting to have a land of their own where then to start discriminating and bullying the original population of the area.. Plenty of the East European Gypsies were eliminated in those same consentration camps the jews were. Why do they not have a right to immigrate to the land of Israel too.. ?? They are still without a land of their own..

  • Some Jews support BDS 'from a place of love' for Israel, says AJC official
    • These people make me so tired with their arguments: Hate Israel.. I do not hate Israel, it - as a country (just man made boarderlines) - has not done anything, but anyone who appreciates equality and human rights can not in any way accept the occupation, violence, bullying and the other ways Israel's goverment and it's supporters are treating the palestinians. And as long as things won't change, people like me will be spreading the knowlege of what is happening in Israel and encouraging people to boycott the country and it's supporters in everyway. Luckily I have already seen the both sides of the truth, so my mind can not be changed. I just wish people like Seffi Kogen would understand, that his right to be accepted and appreciated depends on his behavior, not his "Jewishness". So trying to make himself a victim here, will not serve his cause.

  • Israel’s welcome now reserved only for Jews who back Netanyahu
    • ... and soon the jails of Israel won't only be filled with palestinians, but also with those jewish dissidents who do not agree with the ideology of their own government..

    • So does this mean that the "dream of a Jewish democracy" is turning in to a Zionist dictatorship?? Atleast the political methods of Netanyahu's goverment remind me of the ones Erdogan is using in Turkey.. And they do not sound that democratic either..

  • All Palestinians can become Israeli citizens, but they can't vote, says lawmaker in Netanyahu's party
    • Kaisa of Finland March 6, 2017 at 5:29 pm

      Eljay: I was just thinking here, that until year 1971 homosexuality was a crime in Finland, until the year 1981 it was considered as an illness and finally last week we legalized the gay marriages here, so maybe there is hope for the palestinians too. For there will always be those who are opposing and argumenting against equality and the equal human rights for everyone, but there must be those who believe in the change 'cause that is the only way the change will happen.

      (And just now I remembered, that about 10 years ago I visted a refugeecamp near Betlehem and a palestinian boy said to me, that he believed that there would one day be peace and one state, but it would propably take about 100 years to it.. So it is still 90 years left to reach that dream..)

    • Kaisa of Finland March 6, 2017 at 2:09 pm

      Eljay: Well yes, the "Gaza problem" just underlines the destination of this project "Jewish democracy".. The most undemocratic democracy in the world.. (I would smile here, if the matter was not this serious..)

    • And in this "Jewish democracy", would there still be walls surrounding the area of West Bank and maybe Gaza too?? Would the jews living in the area of West Bank still have their own roads and for the palestinians their own, if wishing to travel to Jerusalem?? And the Gaza citizens?? Would they, as the citizens of Israel, have full access from and to Gaza and to other parts of Israel?? Or would these "new israelian-palestinian citizens" be kept in their own fenced areas like cows with their jewish fellow citizens as their shepherds??

      This plan leaves many open questions.. I'll be interested in hearing more about the plans of the becoming "Jewish democracy"..

  • Video: 'Apartheid has been here for ages. It doesn't really bother us' -- Israeli comedian says in closing act
    • Kaisa of Finland March 5, 2017 at 5:57 pm

      It would be nice to know, if this story continued somehow: Was he able to raise some discussion?? Or was he maybe silenced to death, or faced with full rage.. ??

      Is there someone here who speaks hebrew and is there for able to follow the discussion inside Israel?? I would be interested in hearing, if this "speech" had any influence on anything.. I wish it had.. !!

    • Kaisa of Finland March 4, 2017 at 8:13 am

      I am amazed!! Is this person still alive?? After four years of experience in Israel, to say this all aloud in TV, sounds like a suicide to me.. ?? It is everything true of course, but to admit it out loud.. A suicide..

      He'll be welcome to seek for asylum in Finland, if things get too bad for him in Israel..

  • How to love Israel: 'Sometimes it'll hurt-- bad, but I will not walk away! I will not let you go!'
    • How can a nation build it's future on lies and full denial of the truth?? Jewish democracy?? Isn't democracy always various and complex texture of different voices, individuals and their thoughts and beliefs?? If something is purely jewish, can it ever be democratic at the same time?? In my ears it doesn't sound possible..

  • 'NYT' runs Israeli's op-ed recommending that Palestinians 'emigrate voluntarily'
    • MHughes976:

      "Such is Swedish anxiety about immigration and Syrian hordes"..

      Well the boarder controlls are there, because of the summer 2015 and those about 200 000 Syrian, Iraki and Afghan refugees who came here in uncontrolled "masses" many of them without any papers and an european languge to communicate with. In this kind of climate to have paperless people without a common language wondering around the streets, is not a good idea.. In some point of time they'd either freeze to death or get used by criminals when trying to get out of the streets..

      I speak both swedish and danish and follow the "social discussion" in both countries almost daily and have not noticed that much new in the discussion there lately. We have not said no to the refugees and as far as I've understood atleast in Finland and Sweden we would just prefair the refugees to come better controlled, their papers already checked, knowing where they are coming from and who is coming (the way it is done in Canada??)

      And about Jimmie Åkerson and his Sverige demokraterna, I am still not worried about. These tones have always existed in the Nordic countries too, but still today they are a minority and the opposing side to them is much wider and stronger. Here we took our anti-immigrate party "The True Finns" (do not ask who gave them the permission to register that name for their use..) to the goverment after the last elections, to take responsibility of their talks and it has deffinately cut the sharpest tones off from their arguments (and also their support: the voting precent in the parliament elections 2015 was 17,65% and in the recent "support measuring" fallen to 8,6%). This is what we hope would happen in Sweden too.

      And what comes to Ami Horowitz and Sweden: The social problems on certain suburbs of Stockholm or in Malmö have been there long time before the summer 2015 and those refugees.. And they are not specificly connected to the muslims or arabs or certain nationalities. As I wrote earlier, plenty of finnish immigrants - and their descendants - living in those areas too.. Those problems are mostly caused by bad regional policies practiced specially in 70's, 80's and 90's in atleast Finland, Sweden and Denmark, placing lot of people with different kind of social issues to live together in the same small areas, like they couldn't quess what might come out of it.

      Anyway my point being: There are some social issues, but they are not specificly related to immigrants, arabs or muslims or any other certain groups of people, even the populists like to present it that way. Plenty of open discussion of it here and we are trying to solve the problems. Greetings to the Fox, Mr. Horowitz and Mr. Trump or just anyone who likes to use us as an example..

    • And for those who happen to watch Ami Horowitz's program of Sweden, I'd like to remind that the biggest group of immigrants in Sweden are Finns and Mr. Horowitz could easly have been knocked out by a drunken Finn while filming in Husby, since it is no secret there are plenty of them there.. So let's not make the swedish immigration issue a muslim issue either..

    • I red the whole article!! Thank you for sharing it. Now I'll have something to refer to, when I am trying to explain people here what zionism is about.

      I was trying to imagine what would have happened, if that article had been written in finnish and published in a news paper here. I don't think, it could have been published, but if it had, it would most likely have become a police investigation for the obvious racial discrimination it is including . Spreading that kind of talk here, is a crime.

  • Netanyahu comes to Trump meeting under pressure to kill Palestinian state
    • RoHa:

      Well, Mister Trump has mostly been a joke in here in the North today. He had yeasterday in his speech made a reference to something that had happened in Sweden.. "In Sweden.. Who had believed.." Well no-one knows what he meant by that and the goverment of Sweden has been confusedly asking mister Trump, what did happen in Sweden yesterday, since they do not know.. ??

      I wish Mr. Trump would have same enthusiasm when talking about the things his israelian allies are constantly doing in Palestine..

      But I quess Mr. Trump preferes fake news..

    • the same in arabic - trying to use the latin letters..

      Sakantu fi baiti.

      Sakan-tu fi bait-i

      Sakana= he lived (used as the "root" form)

      Sakantu=I lived, fi=in, bait=house (or home, suddenly I am not sure, but the function is the same),

    • RoHa: And in finnish it can be SVO or VSO depending on the sentence, but never V as the last one.

      As in arabic, also in finnish we have the form

      I lived in my house.

      Asuin talossani.

      Asu-i-n talo-ssa-ni.
      Asua=to live, i=past tense, -n=I, talo=a house, -ssa=in, -ni=my

      But you can also use: Minä asuin talossani, that is, in most of the cases, correct too. (Minä also translated to I)

      Hope you understood some of it.. Would be easier on a piece of real paper..

    • RoHA:

      :-) ! I am happy to have english as a somehow global language to make it easier for us to communicate with each other, but world would be a really boring place, if there only was one language on the whole planet. I have used my "broken english" to communicate with people from all over the world and I have also been able to learn other languages with the help of knowing some english.

      By the way, I have studied arabic and it was so funny to find out that in arabic, there are similar structures to finnish, which do not excist in the other languages I speak or have studied.. So learning languages can also be full of surprises.. :-)

      Anyway, in time to time there are some people (geniuses!!) here in Finland suggesting that we should just forget about finnish laguage and start to have all our teaching in english already in the primary school, 'cause finnish is such an unnecessary language in the world.. I do not get that kind of thinking at all.. Since we can easily learn more than two languages, why to stick to only one.. ?? Each language has it's own "cultural context" to the world and it's surroundings, so one will be easily able to widen one's perspective to the world through understanding more languages than the one which might be the most usefull one.. So I'll deffinately keep voting for cherishing as many different languages as we can!!

      And I deffinately agree with you, when writing that language/s can be interesting.. They are!! I can easily "forget myself in translations.."

    • echinococcus and RoHa:

      I must admit, I have always been really lazy with theoretical grammar and I've learned most of the languages I know By practice.. So about those postpositions, I only remember this list we had to learn in primary school in finnish, I do not know if you are able to get something out of it, but there are those certain different endings to each of them and they are attached to nouns and adjectives, and then follow the rules of vowel harmony sometimes changing some vowels even in the "basic word" before them:

      nominatiivi (basic form)
      genetiivi (-n)
      partitiivi (-a/ä)
      essiivi (-na/ -nä)
      translatiivi (-ksi)
      inessiivi (-ssa/-ssä)
      elatiivi (-sta/-stä)
      illatiivi (-aan/ään)
      adessiivi (-lla/-llä)
      ablatiivi (-lta/-ltä)
      allatiivi (-lle)
      abessiivi (-tta/-ttä)
      komitatiivi (-ineen)
      intstruktiivi (-in)
      + akkusatiivi (-n /which is some kind of exeption, just can't remember rigth now what..)

      It would be nice to know, what they should be called in english.. In finnish they are "sijamuodot" which in dictionary is translated to cases, but then again, there are also things that can not be straightly translated to other languages.. So it would be interesting to hear what you both are thinking about it..

      (And I am sorry, that this has nothing to do with the blog itself, I have not forgotten it..)

    • RoHa: "..are attached to nouns and adjectives, and follow the rules of vowel harmony.."

      Yes.. Since I am not a language teacher, this has always been the most difficult thing for me to explain to the non-native speakers who wish to learn some finnish: There are rules for those endings, but then again since the endings follow the vowel harmony, in the end you just have to hear the correct way to each word separetly..
      But I quess that's how languages are, rules and then lot of exceptions to those rules.. Well, I love them anyway.. or maybe just because of that..

    • echinococcus: .."are not counted as cases".. Thanks! I had no idea what to call them in english.. so just postpositions..

      And you might have even met my relatives in Joensuu, since my father's family is from there.. Finland is such a small country ;-)

    • Dear RoHa: I am a language lover so I do not get affended By your remarks.

      I'll give you some finnish, since you've forgotten what you once learned, but since we are on this blog, I'll keep it somehow connected to the subject:

      "Olen vapaan maan kansalainen ja siksi minulla on ollut vapaus valita."

      = I am a citizen of a free country and that's why I have had the freedom to choose.

      (olla=to be, vapaa=free, maa=a country, kansalainen=a citizen, ja=and, siksi=that is why, minä=I, vapaus=freedom, valita=to choose)

      a hint: olen= I am, and: we do not have prepositons, but instead of that 14 different postpositions (cases in english?) used in both substantive and adjective fex. citizen of a free country= vapaaN maaN kansalainen, from a free country=vapaaSTA maaSTA, to a free country=vapaaSEEN maaHAN and so on..

      just to give you a very simple idea :-)

    • And before RoHa gets here: Ally, I meant ally (= liittolainen in finnish!!!) As you see I am trying my best here.. eh..

    • Before Turmp got elected and I found this blog, I always thought that the realtionship between U.S. and Israel was part of both countries forgein policies: Israel as U.S.'s closest allie in the Middle East and on the other hand U.S. as Israels closest allie against those countries Israel feared were it's enemies.. (note, I am not saying those fears were realistic, but just as the situation was presented to me by the israelis I knew/know..)

      Since starting to find out more about these "Kushner-like-people" in U.S., I am confused..

      Has Israel just become an another state of U.S., owned By rich zionist jews of United States?? Those normal hard working israelis I know, could never have had such an influence on the politics of "their own country" as the rich zionists in U.S. do..

      Really confusing and sad to say, the fate of the palestinians seems even worse now..

      Could someone help me to understand the whole picture??

  • Land Grab: Israeli Knesset passes law legalizing expropriation of privately-owned Palestinian land
    • I am not sure if "catalan" (who seems to appreciate these "western values") understands that a freedom of speech means also taking resposibility of one's words and that a free democracy means that if you speak or vote for those who support tortoure and violence you also become responsible for their actions..

    • .. or a point of view..

      (if that would be a better expression to be used in this connection in english..)

    • Thanks Mooser!

      I have about four years practice in listening those arguments and I am still not convinced. Catalan would be better finding some new explanations to make me understand his "view of the world"..

    • catalan: And do you think that it is ok to support the murderer as long as you do not hold the knife yourself??

      I have been to Dachau consentration camp when I was 11 years old, I still remember the gaschamber and the pictures of the starving jews on the wall. Before age 12 I had red Annie Franks diary twice.

      The holocaust would never have happened without people like you: The killers were not many, but their silent supporters made the massacre possible.

      I am just trying to understand the way you think.

    • catalan:

      The others kind of answered for me already, but this is what I meant:

      If you want to say that it is ok to bully and kill palestinians and take their land against their will, just say it and stand behind that opinion. Words are your actions.

      Do you honestly think that happenings in Rwanda, Yugoslavia or Vietnam are there to justify zionist actions in Palestine??

    • and catalan: This is the part of the zionist logic I have never been able to understand:

      Because russians killed siblings, relatives and friends of my grandparents and stole a part of our land, I have a right to go to occupy Sweden and bully and kill and take the land of the swedish people.

      Could you open up that logic a little bit?? I am too stupid to understand..

    • catalan: So do you think that it is totally ok to steel from others, because your neighbours are stealing too?? Or when you murder someone, are you going to defend yourself by saying, there are other people murdering somewhere else too??

      One can only take responsibilty of one's own actions. If everyone in this world thought, "I am not going to treat other people well, because the others are neither", what kind of a place would this be??

      In finnish we have a saying: "The forrest answers the way you shout at it" - You'll be treated as you treat the others..

      So take resposibility of your own thoughts and actions, stop hiding behind some massacres there happened somewhere else already ages ago.

    • Amigo: Haha..Those expressions I already learned from my israelian jewish friends, including: "Israel is the best country in the world!!". Luckily I have never been afraid of disagreeing with the people near me, but the weird things started to happen after I became too interested in what is happenig on the other side of The Wall..

      Sometimes I felt like I was suddenly an actor in a strange movie, such drama there appeared. I still love my israelian friends and I am thankfull for the time we had together. I am also sad for things being as they are. In some point of the time the skitsofrenic reality of Israel became too much for me to handle and since then I have just tried to do what I can to get attention to the things there are happenig right now.

      You can call me naive, You can call me childish, that is totally fine by me :-) :-) :-)

    • RoHa:

      Sorry: Twice!

    • .. and the same message goes to Amigo too!!

    • RoHa: I know I know, I always forget it. The structure of finnish grammar is so complitely different from english, that I would love to have someone correcting my mistakes before they appear on this site.. I also feel all the time so "handicapped" with my language 'cause words always have more meanings than the straight translation from a language to another.. So I am afraid of being misinterpreted 'cause not understanding all of the connotations of the words I am using..

      And I appreciate people correcting and asking twise..

    • And amigo: If our forgein minister would have acted like that with a palestinian leader, he would propably have been "shot down" from his post immidiately (after returning from his trip) by these religious people, for taking such a partial role in the conflict, against the official politics of our country..

      And now I am left wondering, how is it possible.. How have they gained such an influence "under the surface", allthough it should not be possible.. They are just a small minority of the people here..

    • Thanks amigo!!! I can see my mistake now. I remembered the numbers correctly, but had lost the "dot" in the between. Thanks! Won't make that mistake again!!

    • amigo: Well, but he is mixing his politics and racial issues with his religion totally openly here, his politics are based on it. The problem is that when he is representing our country as our forgein minister, he should not represent himself and his religion. If he was there just representing himself or his own party, there wouldn't be that connection. And if he had been our forgein minister and an atheist humanright activist who would have as clearly "taken the palestinians side", it would have been as impropriate as this.

      As a minister you do not represent your own values, but the once that are decided in the parliament. That message you got from the picture and the setting of it, being "an allie of Netanyahu and his goverment" was impropriate and surely aimed at his own supporters.

      In his private life his religion is not mine to judge, but when representing our country, he is using it wrong.

    • Amigo: Thank you for your remark. I am sorry for my mistake. Maybe you can correct it for me? I've got it wrong then from the beginnig from the finnish news and I apologize for it. When numbers become large, I don't understand them anymore..

      So let me put it this way: Without the finacial support of U.S. the israelis should have solved their problems with the palestinians from a more equal "level", so it would propably have been in their intrest to make some compromises too.

    • amigo: No sorry no, that is not what I meant, in this country you are free to be a christian, muslim, jewish, buddhist what ever you wish, we have a freedom of religion, we don't ask, we don't care, but you shouldn't mix your religion with your politics, and specially you should not mix your Holy Book (what ever it happens to be) with our forgein policies.. Do you understand what I mean?? I do not see any reason why one should.. ???

    • But catalan, I do not understand your point of view.. Why do the Israelis "deserve" a state of their own, but the palestinians do not?? I must ask, have you ever been there to see what is going on??

      There was a time in my life, I thought I'd stay and live in Israel for the rest of my life, but when I started to see the whole picture of the country with the agressive domination, violations and the sadistic hate talk towards the palestinians, the picture of a beautifull loving Israel broke in to million hurting pieces.

      Israel recieves annually about 32 billion euros support for their army from the U.S. and the palestinians have their stones and knives to defend themselves.. There is nothing there, you could call a war.. To me it looked like a suffocation and elimination of "an unwanted group of people"..

    • eljay: When I was still living in Israel, I used to think that the eternal occupation and the conflict with the palestinians was there 'cause it served the corrupted power elite of the country.. If they had made peace with the palestinians, they would have had to deal with the huge domestic problems inside the israeli jewish community - like the deep corruption problem on the every level of the state and the society and the racial/class "gaps" (/differences) between the jews coming from the different countries/cultural areas..

      Ofcourse I have no idea what is going on in Israel today (I haven't been there since the summer 2009), but at that time I surely thought that the zionists were the jews' worst enemy: With the eternal occupation and hate talk, even the jews were not able to develope their own community better and more democratic to serve all of it's citizens more equally.

    • amigo: Yes, it seems to have, we are a "secular nation" here, where the religions should not be envolved in our politics, but there are some religious minorities (we are mostly Lutheran and most of those religious voices belong to Pentacostal Curch, but others too like our forgein minister Soini), who sympathize Israel and the jews, 'cause they consider jews and christians connected in the history and islam as their biggest enemy. So for them the conflict in Israel is a conflict between islam and jews/christians.

      I first found out about this when I lived in Israel and met these people on the flights when flying to or from Israel. They had their Bibles in their bags and were always ready to defend Israel's politics and violations for the palestinians with the writings of the Old Testament starting somewhere in the beginning with Abraham's two sons.. And these people are dangerous, 'cause they are so firm in their faith. You can't find an explanation they couldn't "kill" with their Bible. Who cares about the charity and the humanrights of the palestinians if The Bible says the "Holy Land" originally belong to the jews. (And yes these people are the same who fight against abortion, gay rights and so on)

      So here where our jewish minority is quite small, the loudest zionist voices come from the christian fanatics.

    • And I must add: Last summer our dear Catholic forgein minister Timo Soini returned from his official visit to Israel with a happy and smiling face: "Finland does not boycott Israel!!!". And the news was published with a big picture of a smiling mister Soini with a smiling mister Netanyahu.. Like friends indeed..

    • inbound39: From this side of the world, what bothers and frustrates me most in here is, that in the official talk, it is still talk about the settlements as being a hindrance of the "Middle East peaceprocess", like there was a war going on between two equal parties/two strong armies. In some point of the time maybe it was so, but in my point of view the past years it has become purely an issue of the human rights of the palestinians and their right to exist on this planet.

      Still the few zionist (and they are not all jewish!) voices we have here, are so strong and so denying (and they never hesitate to play their Hitler/Holocoust-card on the table) that it seems to be impossible to get other voices through in the official medias, and believe me, I have tried!!

      For some reason it always comes out in the news the way that "A palestinian boy attacked an israeli soldier and that's why he was killed.. " They just never tell what else there happened, before the palestinian guy decided to attack..

    • Catalan: "Finland was forced to give up Karelia to Russia.."

      Yes, it was, but the difference is that we were able to keep a piece of our own land without an occupation, and the over 400 000 finnish people who had to move away from Karelia, found slowly their place in the society where ever they had been placed to.

      At the same time palestinians lost most of their land and part of them have since then been living in refugee camps and under Israels occupation. So for the palestinians it means that once their land was taken and they ran away and now the rest of their land is taken too, so there is no place to run to anymore.

      It has taken us about three generations to recover from the war and the consequences of it , for the palestinians the war never ended and they have still not been able to even start their recovery..

    • After filling the West Bank with settlements, what is mister Netanyahu planning to do with the remaining palestinians?? Put them into a concentration camp and bully them to death?? I do not understand his logic.. ?? These people are there, they need a place to live and they won't dissapear just By wishing and pretending that they weren't there..

      Does someone have any idea where is Netanyahu aiming at with his politics and actions in the Palestinian territories?? What is his ideal he is working for and what is the role of the palestinians in that plan??

  • 'We have nowhere else to go': Bedouins say they will continue to rebuild as Israel carries out home demolitions at a record pace
    • (Just to add to the previous comment: I apologize for all my mistakes in my written english. Hopefully the point is still there to be understood.. )

    • I lived in Israel about ten years ago: Fell in love with the beautifull country and lovely people I met. Then I started to see the other side of the truth. The love was not there for everyone. I visited Negev and West Bank last time 2009 and have not been able to return since then. I got physically ill of the discrimination and bullying of the palestinians and the bedoins and the fact that I couldn't do anything about it.

      I am so ashamed of the hypocritical politics of Europe, playing that eternal theather in U.N. , but never having the guts to boycott Israel for it's behavior and actions towards the palestinians. (The collective guilt of happenings of 2nd WW has made many European countries blind for Israel's actions).

      We pretend to be a group of civilized nations respecting equality and human rights.. But still those rights do not seem to belong to everyone..

  • Leading Clintonite worries that Trump will sell out Israel in forging deal with Russia
    • oldgeezer: I 100% agree with you about Israel and it's violations. I have lived in Israel and I've seen what is going on there. When I heard mister Trump was elected to be the next president of U.S.A. my first tought was that the real loosers of that election were Palestinians..

      I am afraid of what might happen during the next four years.

    • And Annie: I am not here to spread negative information about Russia. Eventhough my grandparents faught in the war and they lost their siblings and friends in it, my generation has already lived further 'cause we were able to keep our independency and grow up in a free country (In most of the former Soviet countries the atmosphere is not the same). I would so much just want to live my life in peace and love my russian neighbours, even mister Putin, but he makes it really difficult because of his actions.

      When Trump was elected many of the former Soviet states got really afraid, that mr. Trump would make a deal and "sell them" to Putin, to get something he wanted, cause their defence relys on NATO forces and without U.S. support they'd be easly taken. Like Krim. So things are not that simple. That is what I want to say.

    • Annie Robins: The elections were not legal (not even according to U.N.) and they were held By the pro-russians without real neutral supervision. After the election the pro-russians declared that the result of the elctions was that 96,7 % of the voters wanted the Krim to be part of the Russia.. At least the tataars denied the result saying the voting percent was only 34,2%.

      There has been so much "trollying" around this subject from the both sides that there are no real facts or numbers to be found that could be confirmed as to be the real ones.

      My links are all in finnish so they won't help you, but if you really are interested in the matter, I hope you find a reliable source to read. The reasons behind the conflict are many and it is much more about Russias power struggle than the ethnic-russians living in the Ukrain.

      I couldn't find the link about the tataars escaping, to chek it again.. And I am very sorry if I was wrong. I really do not want to misslead anyone..

      Anyway, I could write to you a novel of the Russia and it's trustworthy and politics around here, cause we all here have been crown up next to a politically really unreliable country and all though we are a free and independent here, there is always the question "What if..?" in the back of our minds. And that feeling we share with the former Soviet States - eventhough my grandparents generation were able to keep our independency after the bloody wars 1939-45 so we did not need to experience the same things as ukranians, estonians or fex. latvian people.

      I know that the tataars and at least the most of the ethnic-ukranians did not want to join Russia and I know that behind the occupation was Ukrains thoughts of getting closer to E.U. and NATO which didn't not please Russia and since Krims occupation Russia has restricted the rights of the tataars fex. closing their news chanells and forbidden their free organizations. (Most of my information is from the finnish newspaper articles written By University researchers specialized in Russian history and forgein policies and journalists specialized in Russian issues.)

    • To Atlantaiconoclast: "The Crimeans wanted to rejoin Russia.." ? Really?? Where did you get this fact??

      First: If the Crimeans wanted to rejoin Russia, why did it need a Russian army intervention to do it?? And why is the fighting still after three years going on in East Ukrain??

      Second: Before the latest occupation on the area of Krim, there were living three different ethnical groups there: Tataars (I have no idea what they are called in english), ukranians and russians. The tataars have lived in the area of Krim since 12th-century and were deported By Stalin around 1944 to be able to return around 1980's (those who were left alive). Russians and Ukranians have moved to the area later than tataars, during the different occupations there have been from surrounding countries (around 18-19th centurys).

      Before the spring 2014 the pro-russian movement was developed mainly among the ethnic russians of the area and the ethnic ukranias and specially tataars resisted it. Russia sent armed forces to support the pro-russian group helping them to seize the control of Krim and join it to Russia. Almost all of the tataars have since then escaped to the area of East Ukrain, where the fighting against the pro-russian groups is still going on today.

      There is so much disinformation going on about what exactly happened, but for tataars, they have dreamed to return Krims autonomy as their homeland, like the kurdis in the Middle East fighting for their Kurdistan.

      With your logic, when Netanjahu one day is going to declair West Bank as part of Israel, under Israel's legistlation, because the Jewish settlers wish so, are you then going to write here, that it was not illegal because the West Bankers wanted to join Israel??

      A bit simplyfied truth, maybe??

    • Just to add to my comment above: On the other hand, if Trump would make Putin angry for some reason, that might have consequenses in Putin's Middle East politics. It would most likely be the easiest way for Putin to get back on Tump..

    • Writing from the neighbour country of Russia, I'd say, The Middle East is not Putins main interest or concerne. If Trump wants to make a deal with Putin, it will most likely to be about Russia's illegal occupation in Ukrain and the U.S. / EU trade policy caused By it. Putin wants to keep the Krim as part of Russias "sphere of interest" and I do not see him making deal with any other things than that. I do not think even Assad is that important to him. This is why Trumps incalculable behavior has got the former Soviet states frightened.

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