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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Hi Shmuel, would you translate? I googled mityavnim and came up with hellenists??
Yeah land possession is a different issue:
The Jewish National Fund, from Jewish Villages in Israel, 1949:
Of the entire area of the State of Israel only about 300,000-400,000 dunums [10%]-- apart from the desolate rocky area of the southern Negev, at present quite unfit for cultivation -- are State Domain which the Israeli Government took over from the Mandatory regime. The J.N.F. and private Jewish owners possess under two million dunums. [2%] Almost all the rest [88%] belongs at law to Arab owners, many of whom have left the country. The fate of these Arabs will be settled when the terms of the peace treaties between Israel and her Arab neighbours are finally drawn up. The J.N.F., however, cannot wait until then to obtain the land it requires for its pressing needs. It is, therefore, acquiring part of the land abandoned by the Arab owners, through the Government of Israel, the sovereign authority in Israel. Whatever the ultimate fate of the Arabs concerned, it is manifest that their legal right to their land and property in Israel, or to the monetary value of them, will not be waived, nor do the Jews wish to ignore them. ... [C]onquest by force of arms cannot, in law or in ethics, abrogate the rights of the legal owner to his personal property. The J.N.F., therefore, will pay for the lands it takes over, at a fixed and fair price.[25]
lyn117 is correct, Jerusalem is mentioned in the tablets of Amarna which precede Judaism as Ursalim or the foundation of Salem. The name in Arabic is Urshalim al Quds
"After today, it’s clear he’s lost his marbles. The two-state solution was already dead, but he spit on its grave today"
Agreed, he wrote the script for one state. All his arguments point to a one state
WALK OUT! WALK OUT! WALK OUT! WALK OUT!WALK OUT! WALK OUT!WALK OUT! WALK OUT!WALK OUT! WALK OUT!WALK OUT! WALK OUT!
Yes.
Fantastic rebuttal of Netanyahu's speech on Al Jazeera English, this is what Americans should be hearing
Bibi extends his [empty] hands to everyone including Iran and Palestinians.
I just read on 972 that Abbas's Plan B is to dismantle the PA and abdicate all responsibility to Israel
link to 972mag.com
The reference source is AlQuds:
link to alquds.com
Can anyone confirm or deny this news? This is earth shaking news if true
This is going to sound bizarre but I felt as though Netanyahu had read my script and was pitching it to Americans.
"I know this might sound like Americans are mostly shits ….lol."
You are unique, just like everyone else!
American: "What is the game plan -(political and legal) -by the young Arab academics and intellectuals in the United States? What would they do that Abbas isn’t doing?"
I'd like to add my own thoughts on this. Firstly, young Arabs would speak to Americans in English [or American as they like to call it]. I cannot overemphasize the importance of this. In my experience [and this is a generalisation] the average American is intellectually lazy about foreign languages, translations and sub-titles and impatient with accents and unfamiliar cultural tropes. They are simply not interested in listening to some foreigner whine about his problems
Secondly, and this is related to the first, the ideal way to communicate with Americans is to compare everything to something with which they are already familiar and to which they can draw a comparison. I have frequently been advised by Americans to make Jim Crow rather than apartheid or Nazi analogies because Americans have a greater understanding of what Jim Crow means and are not comfortable with South African and Nazi parallels. People like Abbas do not have the background to understand stuff like this
Thirdly, Americans as a people are very goal oriented and admire things like focus, brevity, presentation, organisation and attitude. Arab culture like Asian culture is more flexible and laissez faire but the kind of protracted roundabout and indirect argumentation which dominates Eastern discourse will have Americans dozing in their chair. They are not interested in perspectives, they want bullet points and action.
Lastly, and this is very important, Americans admire ruthlessness. It is a feature of their resilient personality and one of the first things which struck me when I went there. Things which lead to individual collapse and family breakdowns in my culture - like divorce for example - are dealt with much more effectively by Americans. They believe in things like closure which do not resonate with older people in my culture and have a pragmatic attitude about things with which we deal emotionally.
All these things are very superficial seeming perhaps, but they are very important if you want to put your perspective across to Americans.
Yes, I know, I am from Bombay,India and a fan of his. He is also American, not prone to Zionism and the Music Director for life for the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra. I gave his name as an example of how Palestinians are seen by Americans who are not exposed to anything but the Zionist narrative.
Dex, I think the whole point of this UN move was to put the US and Israel on the spot where the two state solution was concerned and I think it has been spectacularly successful in exposing the death of the two state solution. I am not in favour of a two state solution for various reasons:
1. It will result in wholesale violence against the Palestinians
2. Israel will not give up the settlements or stop building them
3. It will take years - wasted long years - to get the US and prominent EU states to get on board with sanctions against Israel and there is no guarantee that the Americans will not protect Israel from the effects of BDS
4. Palestinians will still be demilitarised, colonised in two ghettos and at the mercy of Israeli advanced weaponry when Israel feels threatened [be it real or fictional threats]
For all these reasons, I am strongly supportive of a one state solution, which will ensure the end of Zionism and a secure future for both peoples
" it’s increasingly pushing Zionists who have never associated with the far right to get into bed with them ideologically if they want to maintain their current stance, something I can’t see going well into all eternity either"
Is that really true? When the Weiner seat was lost to a Republican, I read a lot about Jews changing seats over to the right, but when I looked at the statistics for percentage of votes, I realised that the Republicans had won by default, because the Democrats stayed home.
I think you will face much worse than that, the closer you get to the bone of the issue with Jews in both the US and Israel. The reason why is not hard to comprehend. It is to the Zionist advantage to keep Palestinians as an indistinct entity, something rather than a person with a name who can speak up for himself and express himself articulately while embodying principles and ideologies they hold as sacrosanct to themselves. This is why a person like Zubin Mehta says :"I thought all Palestinians were construction workers". Americans and Israelis alike are steeped in a narrative where the "backward" Arabs - like the backward native Americans and the backward African Americans - are to be controlled - because they are incapable of participating in the superior western system of democracy and likely to revert to violence and suicide [for the 72 virgins] when "upset". The narrative is so deeply entrenched that most cannot even understand how ridiculous and immature it appears to the people they are referring to.
I was watching the Palestinians being interviewed on al Jazeera today and yesterday and I was pleasantly surprised at the level of self confidence and realism - as well as gentle humour - they displayed, understanding only too well what they were up against and still determined to persevere in the face of illogic and suppression. I think it is the first time I understood what sumud means. I encourage you to be visible, to be articulate and to be patient. Let people see Palestinians and interact with them. Most people in the west are hard put to put a name to Palestinians because they hear so little that they can associate with a face, with a name.
Also I disagree that there are many American Jews who automatically support Israel, this is primarily a grey hair constituency and young American Jews are more pragmatic about Zionism even when they reflexively make pro-Israel noises. I have had lengthy conversations on the subjects with young Israel supporting Zionist Jews in the US and I find that much of the enthusiasm is based on very superficial things. It is possibly different in Israel but then I met Joseph Dana and the conscientious objectors I realised its not at all clear cut what Israelis think. I believe that grass roots activism can only be successful with good organisation. So that is where the Palestinians should focus their efforts
Yes. The third way is from the inside out, with Jewish Americans and Israelis engaging with Zionist ideology and challenging it - it is the only way it can work - the only way such skewed power relationships work, with part of the stronger group divesting from "their side" to "the other side". And the people to challenge Jewish Americans and Jewish Israelis to take that stance are Palestinians like Mr Daud who have to wade through the hasbara bubble and reach them. There are parallels to this in every society where oppression is based on race or religion or exceptionalism based on some artificial social construct. Americans will recognise this statement by Lyndon Johnson "We have lost the South for a generation" and that is what committed anti-Zionists have to look forward to. We've already seen the massive impact of this kind of activism in the short duration by individuals like Ali Abuminah, Max Blumenthal and Philip Weiss to mention a few
Do they also believe the earth is flat?
Very beautiful words, Joel. Thanks for sharing your thoughts
What is the measure of US success in Afghanistan?
Beautiful!
Has anyone heard of "Foreskin Man" the anti-circumcision hero?
link to dailymail.co.uk
How do you make a distinction? "Captain Israel" creator is Arlen Schumer a "recognised expert on American popular culture" according to his website. The comic is funded by Stand With Us, which is an Israel advocacy group in the US
And then you have this:
"Led by the fearsome Captain Israel and the fiery Beth El, Team SuperJews is a group of everyday people who rise to action when help is needed. Uniquely talented yet collectively strong, Team SuperJews unites whenever new or recurring threats endanger the Jewish community. Become a Jewish superhero today by watching highlights of local Jewish heroes, learning about Jewish professional opportunities and finding a Jewish federation event near you."
link to teamsuperjews.ujcweb.org
Thanks for posting this, Chu.
"Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely-crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks, mosques, and slums to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command in control, no army… and calls it a war. It is not a war, it is murder."
Why is this fact so obscured in the media?
"I hate that my personal suffering, let alone the suffering of 1.6 million Palestinians living in Gaza, be seriously sabotaged by such phrases once analogized, and hence diminished, to the state of fear felt by a few Israelis in the aftermath of firing often-homemade missiles onto Israel, occasionally not mistaking their target and falling into a huge deserted land in Israel and, once fallen, absolutely resulting in no casualties whatsoever except on very rare occasions"
This was one of the first things which caught my attention when I got interested in this issue a few years ago. The fact that very little attention is paid to the defencelessness of the Palestinians with so many arguments occurring in a twilight zone where they are equally able to defend themselves. It was an epiphany to find out that only 16 people had been killed by rocket fire in Israel between 2001 and 2008 which is lower than the number of IDF soldiers who commit suicide every year
List of Deaths Caused by Qassam Rockets and Mortar Fire:
link to theisraelproject.org
IDF suicide rates:
link to ifamericansknew.org
I came across this website which lists all such junkets to Israel
link to legistorm.com
This is a table I posted from the above site:
No. Cost
Trips Selected 586 $4,975,899
Approved by Republicans 290 $2,609,447
Approved by Democrats 298 $2,390,186
Don't know if I missed it on this page but is there a screenshot of the comments anywhere? I read through a few of the ones in the beginning yesterday but didn't finish all.
"And in the end he's going to leave Zionism over it. That's my bet"
Umm why do you think so? He is upset not over the principles of Zionism but because he sees the goals of Zionism being undermined by a dumb politician. I don't see this affecting his Zionist ideals - only his opinion of the IQ of Binyamin Netanyahu
Thanks seafoid,
I didn't even know about the lady in west Jerusalem. Its terrible that innocent people are being used as bait against the flotilla
@seafoid: Why have there been 4 suspicious sets of murders since Bibi promised Bar Ilan 2 ?
Which are the 4 murders?
"You cannot help it if idiots and bigots share your views for their reasons. That doesn’t mean that you can be taught with their views. "
Sorry to nitpick, but that should be
"That doesn’t mean that you can be tarred with their views. "
Seems to me Jews need to learn to look beyond themselves. Do Palestinians make such poor victims that the flag of antisemitism has to be raised before American Jews will feel its a worthwhile exercise to oppose the evils of Zionism?
How is a demonstration in support of the Israeli massacre of Gazans a "peace" rally? I find it very bizarre that Jews in Sweden come out on the street waving blue and white flags to show solidarity for Israeli killing of people packed in a ghetto and then get upset because normal people think its barbaric and show their displeasure.
Amira Hass makes a good point in Ha'aretz:
link to haaretz.com
There are people in Gaza who have been locked in there since 1948 after they ran from the nakba. How do you think they define Palestine?
"Fuck you, Israel"
Amen/ Just reading how the peace activists have been treated its clear that Israelis have lost sight of all that is moral.
Is this debate available online?
The EXIF data has been changed - the date now says May 31, 2010
Your wife is a very intelligent woman.
Has she heard of Gandhis nonviolent noncooperation movement, when the Nationalists fearlessly stood in line after line to be knocked down by lathi charges, until the British stopped in shame, while American reporters wrote page after page bringing the Indian Nationalist movement to the world?
Truly, a test of leadership and where is the American journalist now?
I just popped into the Yaroni website and first think I see is "Can there be a Liberal Zionism?"
Sure, as soon as there is an egalitarian caste system. Doh!
If these are the "left leaning" Jews being purged from "Forward" one hates to think of exactly what they are leaning towards. Do Jews ever think of reversing the situation and putting themselves in it?
"If there were any sign of Christ’s impending return to Earth, Israel would probably launch a preventive strike on the sky. They’ve completely lost their marbles."
Lol!
Thank you for this. Bravo, Palestinians!
According to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs 23, yes 23 Israelis have died from Gaza rocket attacks in the last 10 years. While 20-40 IDF soldiers commit suicide every year.
This is in addition to the gazillions the Americans are already spending on the construction of the steel wall which will cut off all supplies for Gazans from the Egyptian end.
That is so true
How to make origami weapons:
link to origami.lovetoknow.com
I can understand why they ban spices and sweets along with all the other things that provide comfort and sustenance.
Why do they ban A4 size paper?
@wandering Jew: "But the theory that the Palestinians were the Judeans may gain credence from the fact of their Christianity. But this is certainly no fact and it is certainly not proven"
That they carry genetic markers which originated in the Levant to a greater extent is known. Whether they were "Judeans" is more debatable since Judean, like American, is not an indicator of ethnicity and Judea was a multicultural city with immigrants from the then civilised world. That Palestinians are descended from neolithic Levantines however has already been shown by the frequency of their gene markers in Israeli genetic studies.
There are Arab Jews as well. Arab is a culture, not an ethnicity. Jews who speak Arabic, eat Arabic food, listen to Arabic music and live in Arab countries are also Arabs. I have met Arab Jews and it is hard to distinguish them from Arab Christians and Arab Muslims.
link to bintjbeil.com
Lets see you have the lebensraum, the reinrassig and the untermensch.
Whats missing?
Civil war? How can you have a "civil" war with foreign immigrants pouring in from Europe?
I recommend to you an excellent book on the history of the I-P conflict in the years before the nakba - it goes back much further than 1936
From Coexistence to Conquest: International Law and the Origins of the Arab-Israeli Conflict 1891-1949 by Victor Kattan
link to amazon.co.uk
@Phil:
"remember that Arabs had outnumbered Jews in historical Palestine by about 2 to 1 before 1948"
The 2:1 figure conceals that much of the increase in population happened after 1914. According to population statistics of the period, in 1914 Palestinian Jews as recorded by the Ottoman census were 7% of the population.
source: Justin McCarthy The Population of Palestine, 1990
Not really. I recommend William Blum's "Killing Hope" or Stephen Kinzer's "Overthrow" for your personal edification.
Not a single Israeli who could speak for the Palestinians?
@eljay: "BTW, is this guy an example of the warm ‘n fuzzy “liberal Zionism” that is supposed to be (along with green yarn) the cure for all of Israel’s ills? "
How is this different from any other "liberal" politician who rhetorically supports individual liberty while practically supporting kings, dictators and military occupations of sovereign states?
Thats a good justification for a goth state or a state for people who enjoy self mutilation or wearing their jeans at their knees.
If the US were not safe for Jews, what will they achieve hiding in Israel? Are Americans incapable of bombing Israel? Would being in Israel give them some immunity they would not have elsewhere in the world?
Its easy to give up human rights for other people, isn't it? Ideologies that oppose universalism are anachronistic to justice and peace
Is he also alright with giving up equal rights for himself and other Jews in non-Jewish states?
"It wasn't until Wiesel read the play and found it to be exactly as Deb purported, a work of fiction.."
Much like his own life story then.
Chomsky vacillates between what is and what he wants it to be. It must be hard to realise that although truth equals justice equals peace, compromise rules the day.
Apologies to the odd exception that prove the rule. Unfortunately the strata is inundated with the rhetorical wittys, who speak of peace love and understanding but always with the implicit message that some are more deserving of it than others. It just boggles the mind when 1.5 million people have been blockaded for 4 years for demanding basic rights and brain dead morons watch for days as starving children clutch the corpses of their parents, that we still indulge in the hyperbole of liberal Zionism, Israeli democracy and Jewish universalism.
Excuse me while I gag.
I'm surprised it took her 50 years to recognise the universalism of human rights. I guess occupation has as much of an effect on the occupiers as it does on the occupied. I'm less impressed with "Jewish universalism". It seems the further people move from Judaism or Jewishness [depending on whether you consider yourself a Jew by religion or a Jew by race/tribe] the greater the capacity for universalism.
Israels need Christian Zionists to enable the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Christian Zionists need Israelis to enable the eventual genocide of all Jews who don't accept Jesus as their saviour.
Its an excellent marriage.
Yes, very, why isn't Israel allowing building materials into Gaza so the elected government can provide alternate accomodation which is not on government land? Usually, in my country, when residents are kicked out of government land, they are given alternate accomodation.
There are too many comments so I am unsure if this has already been said:
I wonder what goes through the minds of those boys as they confront the woman who used to live in the house she was thrown out of. Do they feel any sense of guilt? Or is that too optimistic an explanation for their acting out? Do they ever consider "there, but for the grace of God, go I..." or any such sentiment? Do they fear where their society will end up?
On second thoughts if it gets Asaf so hysterical...go Elvis!!!!
Its good of him, but one can't help thinking, much too little, much too late.
Its really bizarre. You have people talking about "liberal Zionism" and "Israeli democracy". Its a military occupation by a colonial state that favours Jews. Half the natives have no suffrage and live under occupation! How people delude themselves.
@DavidSiden
Ursalim is mentioned in the Amarna letters as the city of Salem, a Ugaritic deity. Jerusalem however is not mentioned in the five books of Moses or the Pentateuch.
Isn't Klein just saying in a longwinded way that he doesn't mind blacks or Hispanics as long as they don't live in his neighborhood?
He sounds racist to me.
They represent the average educated Muslim. Whether its India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, South Africa or the US
Perhaps the idea of Muslims as an anachronism is what keeps people from recognising that this is what Muslims are like. Most Muslims don't really have the same kind of ethnocentric group think or feeling that we see in Jews, for instance. So you are unlikely to find a Muslim "leader" who speaks as a Muslim for all Muslims. That would be contrary to the non-hierarchial structure of Islam. No one speaks for everyone else, only for himself.
"There are no Arabs or Muslims in leadership positions of any kind in the major American media."
Don't Zakaria, Velshi and Amanpour count?
Thanks Shmuel and Danaa, great window into the bubble
Avi, I agree with some of what you said, but how does one distinguish wilful denial from wilful ignorance?
Apparently, it must be. With 200+ political parties there is a lot of competition for jingoism. But its really astonishing in this day and age for anyone to claim ignorance of what is a world wide debated occupation.
I find this post very hard to believe. I am from India and I know about the Palestinian struggle from online media sources. Are Israelis so out of touch with modern technology? Students come from Japan after seeing Bi'lin on youtube, is the internet censored in Israel? I read Haaretz regularly and also JPost and Ynet off and on. Do Israelis never open a newspaper?
This is true, I have chatted with Egyptian Jews and Christians and you cannot tell them apart from Muslims.
No no it was funny, you're supposed to think they're discussing his dick when they are discussing Israel placed on his dick
I agree, love the video. :D
Source? I am not well read on details and I'd like some good sources as referrals
In the British campaigns in India, the word was "mopping up"
as in
"On the 6th of January, a British force under Sir Hugh Rose, accompanied by Hamilton, marched northwards towards Jhansi, mopping up as they went "
link to copsey-family.org
Thanks for the heads up, I added Goldstone facts to that particular search. Let me know if you get it when you google Goldstone report
If you read Haaretz regularly, you will come across many such instances of reading about things allegedly said by unnamed American officials which cannot be found to be connected to any real person.
Can you imagine a conference on racism with no "coloured people"?
Seems to me, having only Jews discussing any issue about Palestine is a serious conflict of interest.
Is it my imagination or are all the experts Jewish?
It bothers me that you still think of yourself as a tribal.
Haven't we moved past that?
Wow that was great. I've only read Nine Stories a long time ago, but I'm going to read it again.
Is there a link to the speech somewhere? Did I miss it?
lol easy to identify the American neocons, isn't it?
IOW, he's advocating hasbara for the US as a response to conspiracy theories.
How would it weaken the lobby? What this ruling does is make transparency null and void. Now since campaign contributions are not illegal and in fact are "free speech" what this means is that someone can open an office in Albuquerque , call themselves a non-profit, pass on their contributions to another office in Cincinnati, [also a non-profit] from where it can jump several more offices around the country and finally end up gawd knows where. Combined with Sunsteins penchant for undercover "independent" contractors, what this has done is created a money laundering scheme for the lobby.
Its not a stretch at all. Dunno if you've realised it yet, but the actions of the Israelis are bizarrely like the Germans except in slow motion.
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, with so many comments but in 1944, during the Warsaw Uprising, the Germans created a similar dam between Old Town and the Zoliborz in Warsaw, to block all supplies and flood the sewers.
link to warsawuprising.com