Commenter Profile

Total number of comments: 2736 (since 2009-07-30 20:10:07)

LeaNder

curious nitwit from Köln/Cologne Germany

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  • University of Illinois trustees vote to reject Salaita reinstatement
    • "then camel drivers, sand niggers as they were called at the time..

      I wasn't aware, I have to proofread now. Hopefully this is the correct html tag.

    • You know what, Prof, this is--psychologically speaking--the most interesting part of your contributions here.

      Are you in essence suggesting that he is transferring his own human flaws or character deficiencies on "the Jews" out there? At least this seems to be a turn in the usual dirt that may well stick.

      What's your field? Read any Patterns of Prejudice lately?

      That asked, as an afterthought, when I stumbled across Mondoweiss I was stunned by the sexual innuendo as last resort, usually when rational argument failed. Guess by whom? Surprise, surprise by the fierce defenders of the WOT and the defensive wall guarding Western Values against Arab hoards, or as they were called then :camel drivers, sand niggers as they were called at the time. I guess that may a basic pattern too. No?

  • British pol is beaten by man in Israeli army t-shirt, and the chattering classes are silent
    • tree, I would it would have saved me a comment, apparently we were driven by the same basic association.

      I should have realized more here are aware of Krauss' basic ambivalences, easily on one side and just as easily on the other, with the accompanying "human flaw" of fast judgments by now.

      Take care. And gone again. I'll have to. ;)

    • If I look at this, admittedly very superficially, Krauss. Let's put it in context, admittedly very fast transcription.

      Question: "We don't want any israeli goods, we don't want any Israeli services, we don't want any Israeli academics to come to our universities or colleges, we don't want Israeli tourists to come to Bradford, even if any of them has thought of doing so." This is what you said lately. Do you think that any of this could come across as antisemitic?

      Galloway: No, Israel has nothing to do with Judaism. Many Jews are against what Israel is doing, and most of the people supporting Israel are not Jews. The word Jews never crossed my lips.

      Israel is exempt from any political pressure due to antisemitism, while any other country can be?l Put another way, boycotting Israel and Israelis is antisemitic. Never mind to whatever high percentage they supported both the war against Iraq and now the further dispossession of Palestinians? Are you an adherent of the now defunct "Working definition on Antisemitism"?

      Did you at all care to look into context?

      What exactly do I get wrong?

      I agree, it basically suggests some type of collective punishment. But so do Israel's actions against Palestinians. And, yes I should not add this, a boycott against the Nazis would have worked pretty much the same way. Sanctions of the "chattering classes" work exactly in the same direction: pressure.

      So what are we really talking about? Deliberate targeting of a group or the group's ultimate exemption based on a completely changed historical context?

      Gone again, without a second look thanks to the missing edit feature.

    • piotr, the word has entered German language dictionaries as: crazy. It was stolen once from our Jewish co-citizen obviously since they felt it was a good term. I do love it too, although I would have German words with pretty much the same meaning. OK, right now only one comes to mind.

      Our standard dictionary Duden renders the meaning as: out of his mind, crazy.

      of course Moose can correct me, if I there is a additional meaning layer in the original Yiddish that the early adopters for whatever reason dropped.

  • Coming to a campus near you: ADL recruits student politicians for Israel trips
    • Harry, if they would do this they couldn't control the matters that need to sink into student's minds. Of cause everyone in the PR/hasbara business nowadays would choose - Black - as they emphasise even on the itinarary, as group for encounters with olim. ... UN initiatives? NGO monitor? ...

      In any case, one never stops to learn, or put another way to create new synapses.

      So there is linguistic space, even today, beneath Judea and Samaria? I wasn't aware of that.

      Map of Yehuda and Shomron

      Does this usage signify the religious versus the secular Israeli expansion camp? Or is there no difference really. ... How independant is ADL Israel, which I suppose controls the travel agenda?

      How comes I never read these terms in this context?

      In any case, by now I am rather familiar with Judea and Samaria I wasn't really with the usage of these terms outside history. And yes of couse Judea and Samaria are too. But there seems to be more beneath it.

      Returning to Win Forensics.

  • This war was not a war, it was a massacre
    • There will be for sure close monitoring now of what goes on there and nobody will allow them to redo the military infrastructure. -

      No doubt every time Israel once again "mows the lawn" its image will deteriorate further.

      It's really no news: Wikipedia: Martin van Grevald, military historian, 2002-

      The problem is that you cannot prove yourself against someone who is much weaker than yourself. They [the IDF] are in a lose-lose situation. If you are strong and fighting the weak, then if you kill your opponent then you are a scoundrel... if you are strong and you are fighting the weak, then anything you do is criminal.

      link to independent.co.uk
      Israel's mowing of Gaza's lawn is an unjust war. A Just War must have a reasonable prospect of success. But Israel is locked into failure

      Mowing the lawn is no long term military strategy, it's a short term tactic only. The only thing the world can see may well be, the core strategy seems to be to take as much land as possible by all means. And that strategy will focus the attention of the world more and more on 1948.

  • Our new look
    • Philomon, I noticed your name here recently. Nice aka

      Simply click on your own name and scroll to whatever comments you feel may get responses.

      Profile Philemon Scroll down a little and you will see what comments got responses. I was close to once.

    • I have completely changed my mind. The concentration on content above may well be a significant improvement long term.

      I like the community, but I also have to admit that the "recent comment bar" occasionally distracted my attention from the content. Thanks to Danaa above for pointing out the fact that it was misused as attacking MW generally. Strictly considering my favorites, like Moose, or e.g. Hostage the relentless teacher, I can still easily take a look at their recent comments via their profile. Great this feature has not disappeared.

    • Pretext, TLDR? Too lazy to reply? But you just did. So maybe my first guess is wrong.

      I love your first paragraph. Considering everything else, I am absolutely with you.

      As far as I can see the new developer stole anything that was good, apart, should I say that, the from the user side superior treatment of images, but made the community disappear, maybe they did not monetize?

      It was a pleasure to meet you. Take care.

    • Pretext, This elevates style over substance, yes I was wondering about this:

      The site has a greater emphasis on photos than before. And more emphasis on fresh news too

      you choose "airy", I'd probably have called it aesthetic.

      Emphasis on photos was the big advantage of the last MW update.

      I have no idea, why it feels the photos are somewhat withdrawing into the background. Maybe they have to get smaller too to fit into the more "arty" environment.

      I would tweeze this a bit.

      Maybe the content management will be more easy? Google+ had not much attention lately. If it brings the crowds beyond the true believer that would be fine.

      If so, Pretext, you and me surely could live with it. No? At moment, no doubt, I am struggling with what feels like an aesthetic anesthetization of content. And yes, I missing a bit the power of the images.

  • Hillary Clinton just lost the White House in Gaza -- same way she lost it in Iraq the last time
    • Interesting, citizen. It's not really a new revelation that you seem to have a tooth for conspiracy narratives.

      But what if such a conspiracy tale comes along with Hillary being "the democratic solution" versus "groomed by a secret conspiracy" Obama. What a pity we have no comments by "Sure Win" from 2008.

      "Sure Win"'s first comment on MW was in an election context too: Obama says Netanyahu’s demands are ‘noise’ and Romney seems to want to ‘start another war’
      Philip Weiss on September 23, 2012

      scoll down to the first comment, and check who responds:

      surewin says:
      September 23, 2012 at 10:00 pm

      Obama referring to Israel: “They’re one of our closest allies in the region.”

      That way of saying it seems significant, too.

      Kerry says that Israel could wind up being ‘an apartheid state’, Philip Weiss on April 28, 2014

      link to mondoweiss.net Win says:

      surewin says:
      April 28, 2014 at 2:11 pm

      It’s silly to think, as Norman Finkelstein apparently does, that this round of two-state talks is all about Obama’s and Kerry’s preoccupation with their personal legacies. Since about 2006, a deeper American establishment than the neocon one has reasserted itself. They waited until their new President was re-elected and then launched the current two-state process.

      There are various motives, but my strong sense is that some of the main ones have to do with domestic U.S. politics. I don’t think the ongoing Sheldon Adelson spectacle, for example, is good for the Republicans. Some voters notice it, but more importantly the political class does, and it’s repulsive to most of them.

      It will be interesting to see how Hillary behaves in the meantime. Assuming she runs, I don’t think she’ll reveal much in the way of support for a solution to the conflict before the election, but I think she very much wants the conflict to be resolved.

    • I agree, Annie. Absolutely.

      Krauss once again uses one of his core narratives as argumentative basis. Do I need to tell you what it is?

      Has anyone really forgotten how closely beneath the race issue - Obama, the Muslim? Birth Certificate missing? - the Iraq war surfaced?

      I am with Phil on this, and I am not an optimist natural, since no American. What I realized watching US elections over the years, is, that money may not be everything ... Americans aren't stupid.

      In any case, Clinton should not be the first female president.

  • Jodi Rudoren loves a winner
    • eljay,

      Dunno about Zionism, but there was never any morally legitimate basis for the creation of a “Jewish State” of Israel – a fundamentally religion-supremacist state primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews.

      maybe we only differ on the necessary (underlying dynamics of the) complexity of the (ultimate) creation of the "Jewish State" in time and space. No doubt not without a seizing the moment component. But please give me the realistic profile of a community dealing with a similar history that would have been beyond the benefit of doubt at that point in time.

      “Jewish” is, fundamentally, a religious construct: To be Jewish, one must be descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion, or one must undergo a religious conversion.

      Look can we leave this out for now, it simply raises too many associative treads, not least a vaguely possible connection to race-baiters or race-card among a storm of other associations. ... In a nutshell, history may not be as simple to grasp as MacDonald's wants it to.

      I am a "cultural" Roman Catholic without the interest/need/desire to convert to any other creed including new ones. And strictly, if I think long and hard enough, I may well be obliged to "cultural Zionists" in this position.

    • If you delete supremacist, eljay, which feels a bit too polemical, or maybe, if you prefer, unhistorical to me: I agree 100%.

      That said, I am highly interested in the precise roots of Zionism on the ground over here. In this context a 553 page long history of Zionism in Austria between 1882 and 1918 is waiting for me. So far only my partner has read it.

      Win dows and IT forensics keep me busy and there is no land in sight. In other words I am facing enormously steep learning curve including a rather high pile of books.

    • The funny part is, the arguments for Zionism’s “moral legitimacy” can be demolished by the way Zionism treats the Jews to start with, before we even get to the Palestinians.

      Moose, I understand your reponse. If once you try to be nice and all. ;)

      Strictly without following Jerome's link, it would be a highly enormous task to disintangle the distinction between the indidual and the self and other defined collective over the centuries. Or what impact the definitions of others or the ideologies (solutions offered to pick and choose) have on us.

      I noticed an encounter here recently between the ideological factions: each side offered Yeshayahu Leibowitz as spokesperson for his camp.

      To what extend is the individual shaped by the context of time. How free was Leibowitz to choose? Would he have gone to Israel in 1934 after finishing his PhD in Basel without the Nazis in power in Germany? I have no idea, but I wondered if either of them knows. I somewhat doubt.

      Phil once wrote one of his meditative essays, asking himself who he had been or what he had done. had he been born into another time or place. I loved it a lot.

      I agree with you. Israel wouldn't have been able to compensate Palestinians. What seafoid surely doesn't know is, what he would have done, had he been showered beneath a huge wave of sympathy and financial support once due to something that happened to his community or family. Had he denied to accept it and demanded: Let's better look back and see how we can prevent it happens again?

      The collective may shape us one way or another, but the individual has to decide. And mostly she decides based on the mythical proverbial wisdom: Don't look back. I hated it when my mother told me not to.

  • 'Ads Against Apartheid' is going national
    • Annie, great project.

      although I had to look up "perks" ... and meditated on the PR and Sponsorship wisdom and crowdsourcing in the larger context. Maybe more than about, what impact it would have on me if I were the target group. Would it make me hesitate at least?

      ...

      personal note. I admire your contribution to MW. Your response to my email, made me realise I am not alone in this. I'll respect your limited time from now on. ;)

  • Democratic Party leader echoes Netanyahu's new theme: Hamas equals ISIS
    • lysias, yonah mixed me up with you a while ago. I felt flattered.

      Anyway a young German journalist Souad Mekhennet, apparently, I hadn't heard about her before, met one of the Isis leaders close to the mythical El Bagdadi, is that his name? ...

      If you scroll down on this the following FAZ article link: there is a video of an interview with Mekhennet this morning on channel 2

      It seems a more recent development, apparently. Strictly I can accept the historical argument that all the ME frontiers were drawn by European Orientalists. So yes, that concerns "the 'L'evant" (fr. levant, the East, the part of the Earth were the sun rises) too.

      I have never been too interested in politics, but during the last decade the fact has been on my mind that force necessarily must produce a counterforce. For whatever reason she considers it as a response to the Arab spring. A not too old movement, but apparently a very successful movement. Didn't many of us feel the "Bushie's" approach to 911, so much supported and admired in Israel, was some type of self-fulfilling prophesy?

  • What's 7 letters and begins with Z and runs in the 'NYT'?
    • can some one fill me in on this?

      Trying to understand or follow the link and understand I end up with this:

      {"status":"ERROR","errors":["Not Found"],"results":[]}

      OK, beyond this how can: "Israeli _hights" be answered by GETUPTHECOURAGE if I add correctly on what looks the result of question 26.

      Hmm: What’s 7 letters and begins with Z?, guess I got everything wrong.

      Back to Harlan Carvey.

  • 'Lesson: The Jews will defend themselves even if it means killing children'
    • I can't resist to respond to you before I leave again, dear Moose.

      No doubt hard times. I was wondering a couple of days ago what Clare Spark was doing on her blog recently. Now Clare Spark was the most faithful contributor to H-Antisemitism after my spirtual friend Richard L. Levy was "cleared" from H-Antisemitism as editor a couple of years ago.

      What ideas would Clare, I asked myself, have to contribute to H-antisemitism at this point in time concerning the last Gaza operation. She wasn't present on H-Antisemitism, I noticed first.

      Now interestingly Clare managed to escape Gaza to what I admittedly consider a related issue. As a scientist she of course needs to be able to categorize clearly. Like the groups and their respective collective identities here: "The Left, The Liberals and other anticommunist social democrats, The Right" apparently without a "cohesive perspective on race".

      But along the way as Israel launched its latest Gaza war, she circled in on her her main scapegoat: multicultural collectivism versus the American correct ideology of "the melting pot.

      Thankfully under Jo as editor Jochaved Menashe the ultimate scapegoat rather prominet in the larger US race discussions -- race baiting, remember--have surfaced: Media. (wong link:)

      Re: Invitation for Discussion: "Moral Clarity in Gaza"
      Gabriel Mayer M.D.'s picture
      Submitted by Gabriel Mayer M.D. on Wednesday, July 30, 2014

      The issue of moral clarity is perhaps best undertaken as a discussion of the media. The whole Gaza conflict, now and in the past, has become a media event, and political considerations are presented, as the media deems suitable. Let’s face it, the fourth estate is in control of public opinion, and unfortunately the rules are different in this game. What we have is right and wrong, replaced by photo opportunities, whereby telegenic images of tragedy and death are the prize, and a neutral press no longer exists. Krauthammer's remarks are well placed, but do not delve into the matrix of the media folly. Frankly, this is a challenge for all of us and I hope to see more remarks posted to this conversation.

      Gabriel Mayer

      Is Honesty in Reporting loosing ground?

    • Phil, I understand you are relying on Hannah often, but concerning Israel generally and its achive gatekeepers you really should read "a very short auto-biography" by Raul Hilberg, which unfortunately is not awailable in ebook format it seems. The Politics of Memory

      I unfortunately cannot cite what is vaguely on my mind since I passed my copy on to a friend.

      But this is Norman Finkelstein in a fast search of the book:

      In his often acrid memoir The Politics of Memory Hilberg tells the story that when he first proposed studying the Jewish genocide to his advisor at Columbia University, the great German-Jewish sociologist Franz Neumann (author of Behemoth: The Structure and Practice of National Socialism, a classic study of the organization of the Nazi state), Neumann warned him that “this will be your funeral.”

      Really, very, very short book.

      Some kind of déjà vu? And what exactly is the history of this: this will be your funeral?

  • Amid fierce debate, members of German think tank take a stand on Gaza
    • Antidote, not that it is important, but strictly it wasn't only the left (Die Linke) but also the Green Party who disinvited Norman Finkelstein. Consider that the left, and thus the aligned Rosa Luxemburg Foundation, are still the political grubby kids over here--ok, maybe during the last election that changed slightly--that once were the now polite green party members a couple of decades ago. So there may be underlying political issues involved...

      On the other hand I am not aware of one group on the left over here that has not gone through heavy discussions concerning Israeli politics during the last decades.

      Never underestimate the fact that core memes are very, very effective for left members who were never politically involved in human rights but from my perspective related issues. And simply may have a different expertise that somewhat influences their perception.

      I write this since I deeply respect Jan van Aken and his earlier work (e.g. for the Sunshine Project ) before he wound up in the left party, but I can also see that he was among the left members that agitated against Finkelstein's invitation. Should I judge him only on that?

      Maybe Aken, to pick out one of the anti-Finkelstein agitators familiar to me, looks at what he considers core troubles in a more systemic and structural way and Norman's occasional agit prop language simply pushed the wrong buttons? I have no idea:

      German wikipedia: Finkelstein - Events (2 - sponsors The Green and the Left party foundations) cancellation, cites the following core argument against him:

      Supposedly he said in times when the EU working definition of antisemitism was still firmly in place the following:

      „I don't believe there is another way. I wish there were another way. Who wants war? Who wants destruction? Even Hitler didn't want war. He would much prefer to have accomplished his aims peacefully, if he could.“

      That being said, I am on your side that polite language not always mirrors my feelings. And I know as a fact that Norman did not mean what they claimed he meant with the cited statement. ...

      But Israeal is not the only issue where agenda setting or manipulating people with a few core statements is very, very easy.

      No time to check spelling.

    • Recent Israeli Gaza Endeavors:

      Operation:

      Rainbow, May 2004
      Days of Penitence, December 2004
      Summer Rains, June 2006
      Autumn Clouds, October 2006
      Hot Winter, February 2008
      Cast Lead, December 2008,
      Pillar of Defense, November 2012
      Protective Edge, 2014 ongoing

      Uri Weltman, The long road to Gaza. Link with pdf.file - Rosa Luxemburg Foundation

      A no doubt major US journalistic highlight in the context of helpful media collaboration:
      ( The Gaza Bombshell, David Rose, April 2008 VF )

  • NY Times describes Israel’s June rampage in the West Bank as a “clampdown”
    • The actions on the west bank were specifically the arrest of Hamas activists. That was certainly not wanton, but legal or not, a very specific targeted planned out act. ... but the act that was the cause of the stone throwing, the arrest of the Hamas activists was not at all wanton.

      yonah, with all due respect. You are addressing a lawyer here, if I am correct.
      Do you consider Israeli authorities above the law. No probable cause necessary as long as it concerns Palestinans?

      Or are you in fact suggesting, that the days are near when not only Israel and it's hardcore supporters (Israel can do what it wants) but anyone else will recognize that the state and its institutions must be allowed to act beyond the law. In some kind of Emergency or State of Exception (pdf.file) framework?

      As long, as you suggest, the state acts appear "rational" to you, they cannot be described as wanton? The rationality of power?

      What precise probable cause was there for the arrest? But if there wasn't, wouldn't anyone but you call it wanton? So if a suspect is very specifically targetted it cannot be wanton, never mind law?

    • Pretty amazing consent really. What exactly makes all the difference between enforced and "free" consent?

      "Senate passed a resolution condemning the entirely “unprovoked” rocket fire by a vote of 100 – 0"

      concerning this:
      " Is that a word the Times would use if the “authorities” burst into hundreds of private homes in Ferguson, killed another five people, and imprisoned hundreds more without charge? "

      Who knows, David, maybe the polite voices of public reason are getting ready to treat trouble at home, spelled: riots, the same way?

      Cynicism alert. But strictly, as long as it does not reach the gray lady's classy ivory towers, couldn't it work the same way?

  • Weapons fired in Ferguson come from companies supplying Israel, Bahrain and Egypt
    • JustJesstr,

      there is no doubt an "indirekt" connection. And many of us wondered if Israeli's special expertise in both security and crowd control would one day be copied in "the West" generally. I didn't Alex instead of as you claim blaiming Israel notice similarities only other people notice too?

      From the little I read about the Michael Brown incident the official police narrative has peculiar parallels to the Trayvon Martin case. The only difference is that there is a wannabe cop versus a real one with a tendency to overkill.

      I am in absolute agreement with Alex on this:
      The “wars” on drugs and terror have fueled this phenomenon. In fact it has been immediately on my mind while reading a couple of items and discussions on Pat Lang's blog:

      here picking up on Max Blumenthal via Pat Lang

      and here another comment on the On the National Guard ordered to Ferguson.

      What I would like to add from my purely German perspective, I probably said this before, the moment you define a scapegoat, to complicate matters, a scapegoat that the WOT created to a much larger extend, the moment people seem to feel free to add their specific type of declared enemies. You create the atmosphere to sort out all type of "unwanteds".

      And Israel may well not only be the present expert on security and crowd control but also the recognized expert on the "Arab mind". That's hard to ignore.

      Elly Bulkin/Donna Nevel: Islamophobia and Israel

      I better retun to IT forensics a much less political issue.

  • 'Israel is wrong by any moral standard' -- Robinson says, as US media pile up
    • Have you read the first comment?

      Toosmart 2 days ago
      I don't understand the weakness in the Israeli government's position in regards to this situation. All they have to do is to slowly expel the Palestinians. Just like you'd expel a child from school if they attack another child. First day of conflict? 100 families to border, like Abraham's Hadar, goodbye, here's food and water. Good luck. Didn't England do the same with Australia? Felon expulsion? 3 days later no peace, 500 families. Gone. Neer to come back. One month later? 1000 families and so on. EXPULSION till they get it. There will be no families left if you don't behave. PERIOD. Who cares about world opinion. It's simple and FAIR. You can't LIVE here if you attack us. PERIOD.. I hope this message gets to the government. A warning. Gees, I should be the Prime Minister.

      Maybe one day there there will be a Nobel Price for sadism?

      Amira Hass: Reaping what we have sown in Gaza
      Those who turned Gaza into an internment camp for 1.8 million people should not be surprised when they tunnel underneath the earth.

      ...

      I’m still struggling with the need to share details of the endless number of talks I’ve had with friends in Gaza, in order to document what it’s like to wait for your turn in the slaughterhouse. For example, the talk I had on Saturday morning with J. from al-Bureij refugee camp, while he was on his way to Dir al-Balah with his wife. They’re about 60-years-old. That morning, his aging mother got a phone call, and heard the recording instructing the residents of their refugee camp to leave for Dir al-Balah.

      A book on Israeli military psychology should have an entire chapter devoted to this sadism, sanctimoniously disguising itself as mercy: A recorded message demanding hundreds of thousands of people leave their already targeted homes, for another place, equally dangerous, 10 kilometers away. What, I asked J., you’re leaving? “What, why?” He said, “We have a hut near the beach, with some land and cats. We’re going to feed the cats and come back. We’re going together. If the car gets blown up, we’ll die together.”

  • Avishai says we misrepresented his views
    • dima, yonah:

      Where, in your blog, is a post about how missile attacks ought to distance us from Hamas? Anyway, even if Israeli strikes can be vaguely justified as a response to them, you need to be incapable of compassion, or devoid of Palestinian friends, to refrain from seeing the bombing as criminally cavalier.

      I wonder if his "Palestinian friends" live in Gaza. I doubt they do.

      Strictly this is wonderful scenario for all the wanna be tyrannts out there. You can suppresss and humilate anyone to your heart's delight, and once some respond you cry bloody terrorism, bloody murder. Targeted killings are of course something completely different, not murder but a humanitarian action. I have absolutely no doubt that this model may well find copycats, to the extend it isn't essentially really old anyway.

      As a minor afterthought. The "proverbal Jewish friend" is considered as signaling an antisemite in some quarters, even among the scholars of the field.

      There is something really complacent about balance in a context with two enormously unbalanced "powers". A field in which one side is given 95% of the argument and support anyway. If one side dominates to the extend it does it is not about compassion either but simply a ritual. How it got this way would be the more interesting question.

  • 9 Reasons why Israel is under rocket attack 
    • How did I get here. Hallo ritzl. But this ezra newcomer drew my attention and strictly I thought I used the correct reply button. Not a button really. Interface?

    • ezra, this statement completely avoids Waleed Ahmed points. Your response is hollow without addressing the context.These missiles don't come out of a political void.

      All bigotry is equal, but some bigotry is more equal than other? The animal farm mindset? The rulers and the ruled? The masters and the cattle? Terrorism of the weak and state terrorism?

      Terrorism, Wikipedia:

      The word "terrorism" is politically loaded and emotionally charged,[5] and this greatly compounds the difficulty of providing a precise definition. Studies have found over 100 definitions of "terrorism".[6][7] In some cases, the same group may be described as "freedom fighters" by its supporters and considered to be terrorists by its opponents.[8] The concept of terrorism may be controversial as it is often used by state authorities (and individuals with access to state support) to delegitimize political or other opponents,[9] and potentially legitimize the state's own use of armed force against opponents (such use of force may be described as "terror" by opponents of the state).[9][10] At the same time, the reverse may also take place when states perpetrate or are accused of perpetrating state terrorism.[11] The usage of the term has a controversial history, with individuals such as ANC leader Nelson Mandela at one point also branded a terrorist.[12]

      Thus with Waleed's points in mind my question would be:
      Can you resort to the talking point you use, if you apparently don't mind the ways in which terrorism is produced.

      Occasionally I watch the typical 3 minutes news casts. The latest central points that struck me are these: Tunnels are reduced to weapon channels and lately. Not a whisper about the points above. And yes, antisemitism is discussed while the Palestinian plight, especially the plight of the people in Gaza is ignored. Why don't you give them a chance to live their lives? Maybe they then will vote Hamas out of power? If you do not believe this you need another meme below terrorism: "the Arab mind".

      Welcome to MW, by the way.

  • Naomi Wolf walked out of synagogue when they had nothing to say about Gaza massacre
    • tokyobk,

      I also see the significant part of what she wrote as her not being like the other scholars you mentioned, particularly active on tis issue, but that her gut instinct tells her something is amiss.

      I am not so sure, if I agree with Ned in this context.

      There are wider and narrower approaches. Hers reminds me of a wider political approach. Where do politics start, don't they start at the basic human level?

      I once read a review of a book by a journalist that had worked decades in Russia and was then sent to the US. To his utter surprise he was confronted with basic similarities countervailing his expectations concerning the "land of the free". I often do take notes of such interesting matters, but in this case I was in the process of completely giving up "paper", in other words I didn't clip the really short review in "DIE ZEIT". Unfortunately.

      Now for whatever reason this book by Naomi Wolf reminds me of this review I wish I still had:
      The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot

      Now there is politics and metapolitics. I am no political scientist, and I just invented these terms for the sake of the following argument. But I would put Chomsky more into the "box" of metapolitics and Finkelstein in the "box" of politics, especially Israeli occupation politics, and the resulting expertise. And yes, I would put Wolff in the meta-democracy-politics box. So yes, I think to consider her an average liberal American writer feels wrong after a fast check.

    • I agree, Pixel.

      He often seems to grasp something central in these comments.

      Maybe since he easily discovers rhetorical standards:
      If you don't like it here, why don't you leave/go over there.

  • 'Hamas... is putting their own people at risk' -- State Dep't on Israel killing 4 boys on Gaza beach
    • Forget it, Hostage, it’s comment-town. Don’t ever get upset over anything written by someone who’s real name and identity you aren’t sure of.

      Yes, that again may be a quite good summary. The very special community versus top level content relation I would suppose comes with the topic in a much more urgent way than I seem to have experienced anywhere else. informed, misinformed, simply biased, supporting perceived special interests... add whatever you would like.

      First I missed you and now noticed I may missed Hostage. See, I am not faithful. ;)

      My impression at one point was, Hostage may well be a waste down here. Although yes, I love teachers (with the exception of some) and I missed the comic relieve you provided down here, which is just as important as solid information to avoid ideological ossification.

      I always admired Hostage's energy. Maybe since I felt that his comments did not deserve to be lost among the multitude "babbles", like mine?

      Ok, I got glimpses of his discussion with W-Jones, for whatever reason it may have drawn my attention since I had problems with W.Jones fast conclusions around the same time. Although I had to look this up, and may be completely wrong.

      I am on the way to see my parents and travel a little and I have an IT puzzle to solve. (maybe after?, now time strictly does matter less than wanting to understand)

      Good you are back, moose dear, I will be off for about 4 weeks, and yes it would be sad if Hostage had gone for good.

      One tiny bit. From the moment I studied this issue I also studied antisemitism. And there is hardly anyone that is hated more by the hardcore section than Chomsky, and yes, as a close second Finkelstein. Like Hostage, and no I had no time to look into this carefully, but I trust him, I am pretty sure had I looked into it I probably would have supported him against the semi-informed onslaught.

      Last but not least, Sumud, the idea comes with the topic of "International Law", do you think Finkelstein is the only one that thinks this way out there. But to be fair I had the idea too.k

      DaBakr, considering the above, I like your little birdie. Take care Hostage, strictly I do not even expect you to listen. All the best anyway. ;) And thanks a lot.

      Take care all of you
      Johanna, I have a different name, but I hate it, since it means "the stranger".

    • I didn't have much time to watch this.

      But the little reports I watched over here all started with: Hamas uses its civilians as human shields. long before this special event. If there are human shields, there are basically no civiilans. That's very effective hasbara.

      Since I mainly watched news on the German public channel one, I have to admit I was surprised at how little space Thomas Roth at a more late night news position gave to channel one top decorated (lots of awards) correspondent: Richard C. Schneider. Before Schneider had started every single item I watched with this basic tune. Thomas Roth didn't give him a chance.

      Thus no doubt the human shield hasbara is so strong "one" man/woman even our journalists (maybe not only a child of survivors) has to surrender to it?

      ******
      Mondoweiss:

      What a pity you guys sent back Hostage to his remote. ... But I see that moose seems to have returned. At least I got glimpses.

  • Jet Blue incident shifts from anti-Semitic story to anti-Palestinian one
    • that comes second to the absolute 'necessity' of making these judgements.

      If I get you right, yes that may be one of the central points. With Zappa in mind nessities old and new?

      Now after saying hello on a different thread, I have to retire to Windows FE or more precisely an ideal combination of Windows PE and FE tools. That's how curious nitwits work. What exactly happend?

      Take care honeypie, the best to you, wife and puppie.

    • There is zero to support your idea that this has something to do with the delegitimization of Israel, as if ten years ago, no one would have listened to some abused Palestinian lady, or as if this woman represented all pro-Israel people.

      hopmi, can you give me precise quotes that this was in fact Phil's core argument? Or the basic idea Phil tried to get across. Culd it be you are fighting wind mills?

      Yes, absolutely: Ten years ago I was a pretty "unreflecting philosemite", whatever that may have been in the year 2004.. But it no doubt may well be the default setting of a rather large "polite" majority.

      If I am changing my position, why shouldn't I consider that others are changing too? There are limits to "individualism".

      Starting indeed about 10 years ago I discovered that this basic mental position isn't that rare at all. It no doubt has degrees of subtleties. But there is always one in whom the basic tunes rise to rather repellent heights. But, that's the crux, "they" (these less polite citizen) ultimately represent mainstream's basic positionin a very aggressive way.

      This is exactly what bigotry is, taking the actions of one person and generalizing them in this way.

      That's where the problem and the dual standards start. While antisemitisms may in fact be something special, it is also obvious that there is a basic metaphysic of hate ("for the other"), and maybe just maybe, the Jewish people out there may be like everybody else in that context.

      I know from here on it gets complicated and needs an interdisciplinary approach.

    • Page: 27
  • 'Washington Post' suggests Presbyterians voted against Jews and peace
    • In other words all could be well if there weren't these "self-hating Jews"? Filtering reality via mental preconceptions. No doubt we all do.

      My view is that the church desparately wanted Jewish backing as cover for their pro-divestment position and Jewish Voice for Peace became the instrument for providing that backing--or, perhaps, a means for church leaders to delude themselves into thinking that Jewish backing really exists.

      Either way, some of this would have worked without the collusion of Jewish Voice for Peace, which has a tradition of cloaking extremist principles in ambiguous language.

      When you look closer there may well be a series of sub-preconceptions. With a core underlying theme: antisemitism is here to stay. Only "philosemites" (counter-generalization, "collectivization"), who love Israel as much as we love, can be trusted.

      Strictly I never loved countries, but I love their people, selectively, everwhere.

    • Presbyterians of supporting terrorism

      that's as piotr commented, I think somewhere on Allison's article(s), if I recall correctly. Providing a highly interesting link: They are going bonkers.

      Apparently not only in Israel but also America's Jewish elite community tied by the "bonds of love" (and a misunderstood covenant? I leave that part to our experts).

      In any case, I had this on my mind: RW always argued, don't pressure Israel. Because if you do, you will be responsible if it gets worse. And it will get worse, if you pressure Israel. What else did the Presbyterians do?

  • One killed in protests as Israeli army takes control of Ramallah city center for first time since 2007
    • He turns them into victims, and I doubt that he isn't aware of that. Maybe that's exactly the point. Attacks on even their charity networks does not make it any better.

      yonah, you are by far the most rational Israel supporter here. Don't you think that statements like this:

      Such language suggests that the Jewish yearning for our own homeland is somehow theologically and morally abhorrent, denying Jews their own identity as a people. A sweeping indictment of Zionism amounts to a blanket condemnation of the vast majority of Jews in the world.

      necessarily must partly produce a religious counterargument? Don't worry about your constant dispossession the land was always ours. We simply allowed you stay for a couple of centuries.

      I have to admit that this puzzles me most. A century old religion is now reduced to the nationalist right to the procession of the land. And it is not simply the hardcore that uses this national religious argument. Doesn't that somehow reduce the original covenant to a real estate deal? Is that all it was always about? Highly sarcastically: Does that make the Nazis and the Shoa ultimately necessary. Since without them/it, it wouldn't have worked?

      All I can say, I have the highest respect for these young men that in spite of the knowledge how dangerous it is, do not allow Israel to reduce them to pure cattle, don't give up the little space of freedom to protest instead of simply surrendering to the machinery of power.

  • Why I pull against the U.S. in the World Cup
    • This is soooo funny. I have to check which one I will wind up with. ;)

      Thanks, Philip, really great. We all need a little laughter sometimes.

    • I can’t keep the Boatengs straight

      As far as I know they are both born in Berlin. Kevin-Prince is the older brother, or strictly semi-brother. They have the same father. Jérôme's mother is German. Their father is from Ghana and returned there.

      They are very different. Jérôme is more continuous and successful than his older brother. Considered a highly reliable player. Kevin-Prince seems to be a hothead, occasionally runs riot and is not beyond really evil fouls. At least I think there was an issue. Yes here it is from the Guardian:

      In 2010 it was a foul on Chelsea’s Michael Ballack in the FA Cup final that made Boateng, then playing for Portsmouth, public enemy No1 in Germany. The national captain was consequently ruled out of South Africa 2010 with ankle-ligament damage and never played for Germany again. In 2014 it is not Boateng’s actions but his words that have spread irritation through German football.

  • In 'turning-point' vote, Presbyterians divest from occupation-linked corporations
    • Personally, I think the level of fear in the GA was a sign of your humanity and working through that showed the strength of your spirituality. But fear it was, imho.

      Ritzl, strange, I didn't experience the responses of the anti-divestment-camp as led by fear, but much more by conformation to well established narratives.

      I may have a very ethnocentric perspective on matters, no doubt. But I think the Holocaust and antisemitism lie at the core of this consent. Add to that the US as the force for good in that context. You cannot expect the average member of the church to be able to deal with the ideology of "New Antisemitism". That's not fear but conformity to well established mainstream thought. Without more knowledge to make sure you are safe you can simply switch to philosemitism. Is that really fear?

      I am absolutely with Betsy on this. And I think she is a very worthy representative of her community:

      :a) ignorance: the PC(USA) is democratic, so the church leadership at GA are made up of ordinary American citizens & in many ways reflect the lack of information of ordinary Americans. Rather than blame the church for this, people should be trying to improve general awareness. Frankly, I think the church has been doing a far better job of outreach & education of ordinary Americans than any other institution

    • If Israel had a pseudo-liberal Prime Minister, I’m not sure people would see the issues so clearly, even if the actual settlement policies were exactly the same.

      I think the problem is much deeper, at this point in time no "pseudo-liberal Prime Minister" could avert the world's attention . It can't be restricted to Netanyahu. I think much more that the WOT led people to focus on central issues. Sharon recognized this. Gaza. Do you remember the amazingly high proportion of Israelis that supported the Iraq war? In other words events changed the focus of attention.

      Ok, maybe It's me. But I cannot see that any "pseudo-liberal" Isreali prime minister would help to re-focus the world's attention. But in spite of the fact that much money can be made with changing perceptions according to one's wishes, I don't think it works without starting "at home". If there are core problems no high profile (expensive) gloss will work.

      I tried explaining this dynamic here in the past and people didn’t seem to get it,

      Link, Donald?

    • You don't get the point, just. It feels. Suggesting and now even more will leave? ;)

    • Multiple thanks Betsy. I should have asked you this before. At one point I realized that the "votes" before the commissioners apparently were taken but did not count. That may be why you call them "non-voting blocs". There were points, when different trends surfaced. Obviously a point when wished I understood better who exactly they are.

      Interesting. If I ever watch it again, I will heed your advise and watch out for the MAD's vote.

      I agree, Marc Ellis occasionally turns his prophetic voice into something that seems to leave only scorched earth behind. The only thing I can understand in the context of the Presbyterian divestment activities is impatience. Obviously such efforts are mainly symbolic, but no doubt bring attention, debate and increasing awareness. But pray tell me, what could bring rapid change, and why exactly attack the Presbyterians who at least tried against strong resistance.

      The positions of the anti-divestment group was interesting. The ones that seemingly were fond of the offer of a another handshake event for media, you will probably find in every group.

      My humanist mother reduces Christians generally to this type. All surface and rituals and no content. She has a strong critical strain too, I use a German word for it that is impossible to translate. But for me it describes the point where the high ethical standards are turning sour. Its a point I cannot completely grasp but it has a strongly self-righteousness feel and touch to it, think hyper high expectations towards people that sometimes become more than you can stand. Interestingly she always notices, when I exhibit the same trait. Why can't you accept the world as it is? ;)

      Yes, this is reminiscent of such an ideal-world-demand:

      In fact, as the administration of Union Theological Seminary emphasized in its much-heralded recent decision to divest their endowment stock from companies related to fossil fuels – while for decades cowardly refusing to confront their Jewish neighbors across the street at Jewish Theological Seminary on Israel-Palestine – the stewards of the churches’ financial future assure their constituencies that any divestment avoids financial risk.

      Underlying: Why can't help save my co-religionists for me instead of futile activities? No doubt this would be the ideal handling of matters. But how long would this have taken? Would this have worked faster? I doubt.

      But don't worry, for my special pleasure he compared the present pope to Eichmann. "The banality of Evil" - "The banality of Prayer". Well, yes, the Jesuits had not many martyrs under the Nazis either. I am only aware of one. And yes, that may be only the peak of the iceberg concerning antisemitism...

    • thanks Betsy helpful. In other words the commissioner's vote is representative of the diverse church communities over the country. I understood that special tasks are given to committees that look deeper into matters. I understand there is some type of constitution.

      What were the other voting blocks about? Representing different groups organized in the church, like young adults?

      I know the presbytery from the diverse Reformed churches over here.

    • Irony, RoHa? Yes, that was slightly more entertaining then the rest of what I saw. Are we reading this into matters, since we assume this is more a threat than an honor? ;)

      I did indeed read a slight aversion against meeting the with Netanyahu from the remarks of the Master of Ceremonies, if I may, Heath Rada. The way he dealt with the topic felt slightly out of his ordinary routines.

      Apparently he would have been one of two representatives accompanying Jacobs to the meeting with Netanyahu next week (?).

      From the Forward:

      “If we are truly partners and you disapprove this divestment overture, I look forward to sitting with your leadership in the prime minister’s office in Jerusalem,” Jacobs said. “You can choose partnership and engagement or you can choose separation and divestment.”

      The vote on the divestment proposal is due to take place on Friday.

      Named in Jacobs’ invitation, which earned applause from the assembly, were Heath Rada and Gradye Parsons, respectively lay and religious leaders of the church.

      But no doubt quite a few were highly delighted with the idea of such a feel-good-activity.

      Although some seemed to assume the Presbyterian delegation would meet both sides, which doesn't seem to have been exactly Jacobs idea, if I get things right.

      What the hell are commissioners in the Presbyterian Church?

  • Observations on the Met’s cancelation of the 'Klinghoffer' simulcast
    • Great contribution, David. Thanks.

      So far censorship in opera has not entered the Wikipedia space: Censorship of Music. At least not that I am aware of.

      Concerning Gaiseric comment. Obviously the opera space is much more worthy of censorship control for "the lobby" than popular music.

      But you made me curious, since strictly this is one of the events that kept me at a distance to the Palestinan narrative. It definitively did. The inherent collective punishment, was simply too reminiscent of the Nazis. That Klinghoffer was paralyzed adds to the horror.

      But the Guardian article made me curious about both opera and libretto. What sources did Goodman base it on? And suddenly I wonder, how could the hijackers know Klinghoffer was Jewish?

      A recent article by Robert Fisk, more mystification?

  • Nighttime Israeli raid on Bir Zeit University yields -- truck full of Hamas flags
    • Stop trying to credit the Israeli government with things they didn’t do in order to paint them in a more moderate light.

      I guess you are addressing Allison and only as an afterthought the site:

      I would’ve expected that this site, of all places, would refrain from whitewashing them.

      Wrong?

      Explain how Allison is whitewashing the Israeli administration in this article? Maybe I can learn from someone else's sensibilities?

      Interesting comment.

  • I’m a Lutheran member of a Jewish organization, and I support Presbyterian divestment
    • I say this as a Roman Catholic.

      My advise rapidly look for help. Catholicism eats the soul. Seriously. The secret force behind it also controls MEMRI, Fox, and Palwatch.

      I firmly believe in the hermaphrodite twin gods Mawoto-Lisetta, the good forces of nature and life and love. In our religion the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, or the anti-life-force par excellence. It is only interested in money and power. And thus also the source of all evil in the world.

      Thus if anyone is responsible for anything, including natural disasters, down to minor mishaps, but obviously the Holocaust too, it is always the Catholic Church or the black pope, the magical evil that that pulls the strings and controls the pope you see too.

      I hope you heed my warnings for the better of your soul. Here maybe this helps for a start: The most powerful Man in the World the Black Pope.

      The Vatican owns 60% of all Israel lands and the Land of the Temple Mount for their Third Solomon’s Temple where they want their throne. He is a part of the Arcana Arcanorum controlled by the Papal Bloodlines within the I-Mori.

      WAKE UP, and realize the evil cult you were born into. Hint: He also controls the conflict in the Muslim world.

      Apart from that, welcome. But again, seriously, seek help!

  • How Israel is exploiting the reported kidnapping to weaken Palestinian reconciliation
    • piotr, the phone call theme had a "subtheme", at least in the two articles I read: there was a noticeable delay between the supposed call by one of the boys and the start of the search. Could this be related. Look, we may not have our very, very best in this instance but most of the time you are not even aware of what we do since ...

    • One civilian can understand the clear words, the Minister cannot……….

      I haven't looked much into this. But there was also a perceivable delay in the search. Soo Aharonovich maybe is trying to explain it by not having been able to understand clearly. Or alternatively maybe possible clues to location were not clear. Whatever.

      I agree with James, the timing is odd. On the other hand one could simply exploit the event to do something much faster than initially planned. How many released prisoners are arrested again? Maybe not the speed but the general routine feels a bit like business as usual.

  • Israeli army enacts curfew near Nablus and raids eight major West Bank cities
    • ritzl:

      I think you’ve asked me this before. Sorry for not responding, but my story is pretty unremarkable other than that it was a personal and durable life-lesson

      No, replay interface below your comment. Thus it seems I have to answer to myself to get somewhere close.

      I was wondering if I did. Occasionally I am meditating over a comment and finally decide to not post it. ;) I like the song, its a memorial of the event. And yes, I prefer the CSN&Y version too. I am not such a big Young fan although he wrote it.

      The only thing I can’t explain well is why, within all that context, Israel was different.

      Yes, I can identify with that completely. Emotionally the Palestinians had no chance at that point. The worlds empathy was on the side of Israel. Absolutely no doubt.

      On the other hand I may have blocked attempts by people to educate me on the issue occasionally. I remember odd comments by an Irish friend in London. It feels he tried, but ran against a solid defensive wall I had erected. A friend with Palestinian background here in Cologne told me more than a decade ago by now, you never asked. Apparently others, obviously his wife, did. A family story not so easy to "digest" either.

    • thanks, ritzl, I noticed you before:

      tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
      We're finally on our own.
      This summer I hear the drumming,
      Four dead in Ohio.

      familiar?

      I couldn't help, but when I read your profile

      It was the '70s, Kent State, and we were supposed to be FOR civil rights.

      "Ohio" was on my mind.

    • I would like to add something.

      I use aesthetic choice for layers below knowledge, below available facts.

      And this has to do with the etymology of the word Aesthetic:
      <a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics#EtymologyAesthetic - Etymology

      the verb it is based on, or means this, if we look at the verb: aisthanomai, meaning "I perceive, feel, sense

      I have no idea how to explain it on a purely rational layer, but to simply turn around the other side's argument--Oren: Palliwood--feels misguided to me. Since it is simply a mirroring of what is done, without knowing, why exactly and what its origins are.

      Would it make sense to base your assessment on psychops? Simply mirror them?

      This is a much larger problem. It is pretty apparent on a much larger scale in "the conflict".

      And notice, I do not say it is impossible that these three kids are not kidnapped at all. But the rest is guesswork. Just don't get into the other side's tricks it feels.

      Without doubt, the Palestinians cannot check if the three teens are safely at home.

    • Rusty, the problem is, no matter what happened whatever we see can be interpreted according to our suspicion. I noticed but did not follow the debate.

      My choice is: It did happen. Aesthetic choice: Since the other option robs Palestinians of agency.

      Basis for suspicion: There no doubt was a degree of escalation for longer now. It would be ideal for Israel, if they could force Palestinians to give up non-violent ways. Would allow Israel to return to older well established patterns, both inside and outside, "mediawise". Look we have been threatened since the very, very start. How can you seriously expect us to leave? We would long have been out of here. If we do the space it being taken over by terrorists. Imagine all the footage media companies have in their archives to point out a certain continuity of the Palestinian threat. And no doubt this could be such a scenario. Theoretically. And after all there were two killed teens to cover up. No doubt there were some odd. The kids phoning to tell they are being kidnapped?

      Counter argument. The authoritarian mindset has lately been challenged by prisoners confronting them with the only free choice left. The death of the two teens was connected with that event. The last remnant of free will: The choice to die. A last resort that no doubt contains media danger. Could one or the other mainstream journalists start looking into the larger context of Israeli detainment of prisoners? No doubt a danger scenario that has to be controlled.

      Now we have another provocation showing the world the limits of Israeli power and control. Wouldn't it be perfect to find the guys and perpetrators soon? Reduce the space of possible Palestinian resistance still further? Erase the last remnants of it? Show the world Israeli prowess?

      Excursus: I admittedly occasionally felt Schadenfreude confronted with at least one kidnapped victim of the German Bader-Meinhoff group. I cannot deny I feel a bit of support for whoever could be behind this. Have you planned this well? If this were a soccer game I would be on the Palestinian side. I hope you planned this well, guys.

      Could you imagine that a scenario like this is planned to show the world Israeli prowess? Something like they will play this "game" for a while and then come up with the teens and their kidnappers? I don't think so. So far events look like self-justifying routine.

      I told you we shouldn't release these guys. Let's arrest them again.

      That is an event in which the army does standard police work. Simply with much more authority then police would have.

  • Why a false understanding of the 'Six Day War' still matters
    • 19th century customary international law that was reaffirmed by the Nuremberg tribunal

      Obviously. I just had that in mind.

      Of course we don’t care. ...

      Not sure if the victory of the Israeli narrative does not strongly rely on the fact that we do actually care, the problem is we are constantly asked to ignore the other side or reduce them to terrorists.

      When I read Michelle's book I admittedly did not like the way she merged the image of the "infiltrators" with the image of the Palestinian militant. Remember that passage? Even Morris puts the percentage of militants among the infiltrators at no more than 10% of the incidences. ... (10 years work?- A militant who asks the new owners of his tiny hut to hide weapons there?)

      Israel's Asymmetrical Wars, Samy Cohen

      Ze'ev Drori (Fith "Givrati" Brigade) "Infiltration and acts of violence along the state's borders were equally regarded as falling within the rubric of armed conflict and terror, calling for a uniform military response."

      "two periods should be distinguished: the first, which goes from 1948 to the Suez War, is characterized by the fight against infiltrators. It was conducted without much imagination on the part of the political and military establishment. Not only did the IDF not manage to control its borders, but also allowed itself gradually to be drawn into an escalation that would lead to the Suez Crisis. The desire to deter infiltrators was probably not the only motivating factor for the Israeli leadership. Israeli military officials had a secondary objective, which was to use these operations as a test bench, that is, a field of maneuvers enabling Israeli units to gain training in contact and combat. Moshe Dayan was convinced that sooner or later, and given Egypt's rearmament, a second round that would enable it to weaken Egypt for many more years was inevitable. Dayan's intention, according to Gideon Rafael, director of the Foreign Affairs Ministry at the time, "was to create a situation of such gravity that it would force the Arab states to take up open battle with Israel." "These actions had paved the way to war," Drori would add. By its excessive reactions, the Israeli army drew the other into a spiral of violence that resulted in the 1956 confrontation. The general staff often created the conditions for confrontation to accuse the other of preparing for it. this is typically the phenomenon of a self-fulfilling prophecy that would be repeated time and time again, particularly in the years up to the second Intifada.

      Sounds familiar?

      Already in 1948 he [Ben Gurion] claimed that Israel's geography required it to observe the following rule: "He who strikes first wins the battle. Otherwise Israel would be overwhelmed."

    • Our Benny Morris fan is gone by now. Richard liberal Zionist Witty found the argument convincing.

      link pdf.file:“Survival of the Fittest” in the 9 January 2004

      Morris: "You can’t make an omelet without breaking eggs."

      [Avi Shavit] I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that Ben-Gurion erred in expelling too few Arabs?

      [Benny Morris:] If he was already engaged in expulsion, maybe he should have done a complete job. I know that this stuns the Arabs and the liberals and the politically correct types. But my feeling is that this place would be quieter and know less suffering if the matter had been resolved once and for all. If Ben-Gurion had carried out a large expulsion and cleansed the whole country—the whole Land of Israel, as far as the Jordan River. It may yet turn out that this was his fatal mistake. If he had carried out a full expulsion—rather than a partial one—he would have stabilized the State of Israel for generations.

      [Avi Shavit] I find it hard to believe what I am hearing.

      [Benny Morris:] If the end of the story turns out to be a gloomy one for the Jews, it will be because Ben-Gurion did not complete the transfer in 1948. Because he left a large and volatile demographic reserve in the West Bank and Gaza and within Israel itself.

      *******
      thanks for the Talmud link, Hostage, appreciated.

  • Iran wins points from Brazil to State Dep't (even as Bill Kristol calls for another Iraq war)
    • Walid, we don't know all of it. Maybe the funding of the Syria fundies was an unintended outcome. Initially it was meant to go pro-democracy forces. Maybe the problem was partly the channels? Or did the information how they can be tapped spread?

      What is needed may well be more serious discussions about the lefts underhand pro-democracy support and the interests behind it. Just as the rights creating-democracy-via-war. I have the diverse color revolutions in mind, which lately aren't so colorful anymore. Maybe since it suggests quite a bit of planning behind it? On the other hand at least in the Ukraine all it sweeps up are the powerful oligarchs and related respective interests.

      If you create revolutions ultimately the dynamics are out of your hand. Just in Iraq forces may take over that you really didn't want to start with. That's were the two different approaches meet.

  • Neoconservatism is 'vindicated' in fawning 'NYT' piece on power couple of Kagan and Kristol
    • Well, no doubt the NYT mirrors the larger US West coast Power Elite's outlook, not just on Israel. No doubt it was a dominant warmongering cog for the WOT warriors. On the other hand there was almost no opposition media wise, it feels.

      What I am not so sure about is, is it simply a fawning profile of MartianRobert Kagan, or if it is an informative article for the reader.

      It gives us a little context of events? For instance what influenced Obama's West Point speech. And strictly it picks up on a debate that was triggered by the New Republic. Some may remember the core theme of the neocons in whose mind it constantly was 1938 again:

      Kagan: worldwide advance of autocracy and retreat of democracy—taken individually, these problems are neither unprecedented nor unmanageable. But collectively they are a sign that something is changing, and perhaps more quickly than we may imagine. They may signal a transition into a different world order or into a world disorder of a kind not seen since the 1930s.

      Does it simply pick up on that article to spread it more widely. Or is it going to trigger a larger debate? Was it already known that Kagan influenced Obama's recent speech at West Point? Is war-weariness an intellectual problem only? what do the people with military background have to say about that?

      We also learn that for whatever reason an earlier signatory of PNAC 1997 wisdom does beg to differ: Donald Kagan. And whoever wants to, now can go on and read both Kagan's New Republic article and compare it to Obama's speech to find out what he may have in mind with this:

      (Their father apparently did not get the memo, calling Mr. Obama’s speech “pathetic” and saying of the president, “We should not underestimate the possibility of extraordinary ignorance.”)

      Whose exactly?

      Is here anyone that will be convinced by it, or does someone now consider to vote for Hillary Clinton next time? Any NYT reader that wasn't a true believer before? Or could it help produce some skeptics in the Democrat camp who try to make sure she won't be elected? Does anyone think an article like that can change American war-weariness, so they march to Washington and demand that Obama immediate interferes in the Ukraine and in Iraq?

      Mr. Kagan, 55, prefers the term “liberal interventionist” to the neoconservative label, but believes the latter no longer has the stigma it did in the early days of the Obama presidency. “The sort of desire to say ‘Neocon! Neocon! Neocon!’ has moved out a little bit to the fringe,” he said.

      Some readers may recall efforts of the earlier Euston Manifesto crowd aimed at getting the European left into their camp. Apparently the ideology is still firmly in place. It was an effort by Martian circles to get the European left into the larger neoconservative camp. Here in Germany only the anti-Germans surfaced prominently as signatories, and strictly they were ardent supporters of Bush and WOT long before.

      Has a slight shape shifting feel and touch to it. No? As it shows that apparently they want to at least cut the connection to the older term. Hoping that people don't notice? Does it help that he is after all married with a Democrat, who checks whatever he publishes? Someone who surfaced in a controversy herself recently?

      Fawning? I don't think so.

      Concerning Jason Horowitz, how man space was he given in the print edition?

  • Kidnapped
  • PA condemns Israeli 'collective punishment' following disappearance of Israeli teens
    • that's helpful. I noticed my position has changed by now. And I never really reflected on it before. Short hint on "gate-way drug"?

      why must a non-Jew (admittedly trickier for a German) define herself in terms of Jewish nationalism?

      Strictly that was among the mental meandering. Why should I be obligated at all to take a position on Zionism? ... Don't misunderstand. I was basically unpolitical till 911. I remember at least one complex discussion with a Jewish stage director, about my possibly "German" apologetic suggestions. It was about Nazi German "whispered jokes"/Flüsterwitz. Jokes that wouldn't have survived without Jewish emigrants to London. But suddenly could be interpreted as German apologetics. For me laughter and humor is an act pf resistance to ideology. There were series of anti-ideology/"Government propaganda" jokes in the GDR too. Where it was as dangerous as under the Nazis to utter dissent.

      In our context I accept responsibility but I do not think it should be blind support. Understand?

    • Shmuel, OT here. Response to earlier thread that is closed now.

      Concerning my hesitation of using anti-Zionist. Your question in bracket triggered a series of thought. It was interesting. But thankfully the thread was closed before I could tell you the whole material the brainstorming produced. ;)

      Well by now I can leave out a lot that may not really matter. Amon Raz-Krapotzkin published an article in a German book giving different Israeli scholars a chance to take positions concerning Israeli New Historicism. In this article he defined post-Zionism, that I remember and I have to admit that it seemed to fit my position closely. It surfaces on the English Wikipedia article on Zionism. Neo-Zionism - Post-Zionism

      Anti-Zionism gets us into a much longer debate, where also precursors surface. The English Wikipedia article on Zionism pays no attention to. I would like to know a lot more about this earlier historical debate than I do. I heard stuff from web-ideologues arguing that Enlightenment really triggered precursors of Zionism from "the Jews". They really, resisted Emancipation. They didn't want to be emancipated. Which is obviously wrong.

      It must obviously have been an earlier non-Jewish European idea in the context of dealing Jewish emancipation.

      In this larger historical context post-Zionist carries less historical burden for me. That's all.

  • Evolution of the Bibi-Barack relationship
    • This one is perfect again, Katie. No doubt interesting story. Well worth it.

      I love Khamas, and I admittedly have been pondering about Fox News last paragraph on the topic. They informed us about ISIS tentacles in the West Bank. Just in case. You know, even Fox viewers may wonder why the hell Khamas should do this now.

      Oh, they updated it by now. Just in case someone doesn't yet know the acronym ISIS. And to make it absolutely sure no one misses, what they are supposed to store mentally, they added that ISIS is the latest mutation of Al Qaeda. Fox link. Now yes, that surely was an improvement in perception management. It also was the last paragraph when I looked at it. ;)

      In recent months, there have been growing signs of the emergence in the West Bank of small groups of militants who identify with Al Qaeda. One of several claims of responsibility for the kidnapping came from a group that said it was linked to an Al Qaeda splinter group, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, which controls parts of Syria and overran parts of northern Iraq this month.

      The Israeli military also said its aircraft struck several targets in Gaza overnight in retaliation for Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel. Gaza Health Ministry spokesman Ashraf al-Kidra said a girl was slightly wounded.

      take care.

  • Fire Thomas Friedman
    • It’s scary ...

      Yes, it has been that from the very start. I have to admit, I am highly prejudiced against the man. Surface no contents. My opinion long before he played Bush's poodle. Hmm? Was Obama inspired by his Third Way?

      If I may blurt out? I assume that he is quite satisfied with the salary he gets plus a lavish extra for out of the pocket expenses. Beyond that his first step probably was looking for Israel's advise. They are the top experts on the "Arab mind" after all, aren't they? They may have informed him to not overwork, since it won't get him anywhere anyway. Haven't they tried it for several decades after all? All that is needed really is the occasional photo op with a handshake.

      Here is another little glimpse of Third-Way Blair's PR versus hard statistical facts.

  • Wisconsin Jewish leaders open the door to-- shhh -- anti-Zionists
    • Yes, Shmuel, there definitively is such a linguistic marker but the larger context context suggest not "an" but "the" to me. Since the Jewish story and the national project are also inseparable.

      But, you are absolutely correct, I definitively misused her commentary. Her no doubt carefully grafted Lets-be-united-in-faith and for-our-own-self-defense-and-Israel's commentary--hopefully the youngsters can be won over--is no doubt very open and inclusive as it should be, based on its premise. It was simply such an enormous contrast to my own grumpy state of mind that I had to let off steam collected for some time now.

      I guess I was very insensitive, maybe even more since it contains quite a bit of religion. So I should have considered there may be sensibilities.

      But lately I am struggling with the fact again that I am a collective-multi-threat prototype, first as German, that I got used to by now, but second as baptized Catholic, a church that brought the antisemitic into world after all. And compared to the threat potential I represent Egyptian slavery must have been a picnic after all.

      Thanks G-d, I am not fond of anti-Zionism, but, notice I am careful now, would juxtapose some type of post-Zionism Utopia to the original Zionist one. Otherwise I would need to add another strain of collective threat stain to the above time bomb prototype: ME.

      Holocaust Remembrance Day 2014: the TABLET evasion

      Had I not a born-in-Morocco Sephardic son-in-law, I would never know about tensions in Israel between the expelled refugees from the Arab countries in North Africa and the Mid-East and the Ashkenazim in Israel (who are themselves internally divided). Nor would I be so focused on the Israeli or British Left that has taken up the Arab narrative on Israeli history with a malicious distinction between “anti-Semitism” and “anti-Zionism.” We are facing a potential second Holocaust and TABLET leads with a feel good article that escapes from the real dangers that “Jews” everywhere face?

      Seriously there were times, when I felt very, very sorry for Clare. It felt, she was multi-traumatized but my empathy dissipates.

      What would be the core Tanaka, Rabbinic themes or Talmud passage (no idea if I got close) about the necessity of the community to choose as the central aspect self-defense?

      Inspired lives

      Like many Jewish organizations, the Jewish Community Relations Council is built on the sharpened tip of Jewish self-defense. Our mission is to build strategic relationships and defend others — in order to protect ourselves.

    • look, Moose, mine would look pretty similar: alter knacker, I even dropped capitalization Annie-style.

      And don’t forget, double the order if they just pay separate shipping and handling.

      Great idea of course. But there must be trick somewhere in the above part. ;)

    • Mindful that Israel is an expression of the deepest Jewish aspirations and that we cannot separate the Jewish story from the national project, I believe that we are strong enough to allow the range of voices within our community conversation. We must be. Or we risk pushing out of our tent those whose lot is with the Jewish people. ...

      We need to simultaneously teach love and allow criticism. As the mother of teenagers, I want my children to fall in love with Israel. But I also want them to be ready for the outside world. If they cannot see Israel’s imperfections, their love may collapse under the pressure of harsh criticism. I’ve seen it happen.

      Now I guess that sets it once and for all. The essence of Judaism and correspondingly "the Jews" is the state of Israel. Alternatively Judaism means each and every Jew must love Israel warts and all.

      Now we have to reflect what they could possibly mean for non-Jews. I return to the chapter of my book about the rare, you guessed it, good Germans, in this case the "philosemites" between 1871 and 1932 who actively supported Herzl and Zionism. Maybe I find a partial of the answer there?

  • 'Atlantic' runs unblinking account of Palestinian persecution in Hebron
    • While I think that it is better that this article exists than not exist, I have to wonder why the story of this oppression and gross human rights violations is not being told by a Palestinian

      Since they wouldn't be published?
      Since they never tried?
      Since ....

      I have to admit that I did not really know what Waldman told us. And it is a very important detail really.

      If they had ordered a Palestinian to write something about it, or anyone else for that matter--considering the "historical landscape of wrongs" is widened to several hundred centuries of wrongs done--what aspect of the Zionist/Palestinian history would he have concentrated on?

      Wikipedia: Hebron

      Fact is "the wrongs " against "the Jews" are always trumping the wrongs against Palestinians since they have centuries of wrongs on their side, supportively.

      Is the Holocaust told exclusively through the words of “good Germans” here in America and Jewish voices excluded??

      Actually, I wanted to go on to this, but I have already said enough.

  • Anti-Cantor coalition included Tea Partiers, Independents, Democrats
    • as the NR is saddened

      Zengerle seems to have picked up the topic from the NYT and only weighs evidence. Apparently, he only finds one GOP colleague who suggested he was too ambitious, driven, pushy. ... Apart from one of Phil's favorite themes: Jewish money. Adelson's, at least, went to the GOP anyway (only lately?) and would have gone there even without Cantor, it feels.

      I find passage following that passed interesting:

      If Cantor ever experienced similar discomfort, he didn’t let on. Perhaps he was truly oblivious to it, or perhaps to acknowledge it would be too personally (not to mention politically) painful. Indeed, to the extent Cantor ever did view his religion as a liability, it was only with regard to his relationships with Democrats. When I profiled Cantor back in 2011, he was in the midst of another one of his serial reinventions. It was just a few months after the debt-ceiling fight, in which Cantor sabotaged Barack Obama and John Boehner’s attempts to strike a grand bargain, and Cantor was now trying to portray himself as a bipartisan conciliator and someone willing to work with the president. He spent most of his time with me hammering home that message, saying things like, “I’m not this guy with horns and a partisan only.”

      So why not look at it as a sign that politicians that keep shifting their positions in accordance to perceived or studied public mood, may not convince their voters as easily as they did in the past. Maybe they are learning that they are fooled sometimes? Besides could it be that voters of the democrats have a bias suggesting dissembling is much more frequent on the side of the Grand old Party?

      I may be completely wrong of course, but I find much sadness in the article. OK, maybe a suspicion some things could be antisemitic. But yes, what I learned from following links by Phil and Annie, it seems that Canter was a central in the US dept-ceiling crisis. Could it be that people did not like the delays in 2011 very much. Even GOP voters?

  • 'Numb, speechless, sad', Israel supporters grieve Cantor's loss
    • Not Blackrock, Blackstone. Lately the biggest player in private equity. One English management buy-out firm I watched in 2005 over here by now has ended up in their possession too.

      I saw a documentary about Blackstone's activities over here in Germany. Real Estate. Ugly story for the renters. But obviously it looks completely different on the side of shareholders or generally institutions and people profiting from the usually leveraged buyout schemes. If these deals fail, no doubt the banks as main financiers may well be in troubles too. Is that why they are also strong institutional holders? If not, strictly it can be a win-win scenario for the bank too, just as for Blackstone and its investors. Concerning the renters: Apparently the win-win scenario above had no planned necessary-repair-and-maintenance funds, with the usual result in these type of deals. But greed is pretty universal, although only a few can gamble in the field of risk. Which no doubt leads to the development of tools to serve their tastes.

      Strictly these housing bubbles everywhere are an interesting topic. But I don't have the necessary basics in the field. Does Corpwatch have it? Is there are relation between the huge buyout boom that preceded the collapse of the financial market? From scanning the Wikipedia article.

      This is an interesting article from Corpwatch by Laura Gottesdiener apparently they changed the title to fit their interest in Blackstone. At least I don't find it here. No doubt once the bubble exploded you could buy the real estate at much lower price. Good business.

      The second sign was the buyers themselves.

      “I went two years without selling to a black family, and that wasn’t for lack of trying,” says Alston, whose business is concentrated in inner-city neighborhoods where the majority of residents are African American and Hispanic. Instead, all his buyers -- every last one of them -- were besuited businessmen. And weirder yet, they were all paying in cash.

      Between 2005 and 2009, the mortgage crisis, fueled by racially discriminatory lending practices, destroyed 53 percent of African American wealth and 66 percent of Hispanic wealth, figures that stagger the imagination. As a result, it’s safe to say that few blacks or Hispanics today are buying homes outright, in cash. Blackstone, on the other hand, doesn’t have a problem fronting the money, given its $3.6 billion credit line arranged by Deutsche Bank. This money has allowed it to outbid families who have to secure traditional financing. It’s also paved the way for the company to purchase a lot of homes very quickly, shocking local markets and driving prices up in a way that pushes even more families out of the game.

      “You can’t compete with a company that’s betting on speculative future value when they’re playing with cash,” says Alston. “It’s almost like they planned this.”

      In hindsight, it’s clear that the Great Recession fueled a terrific wealth and asset transfer away from ordinary Americans and to financial institutions. During that crisis, Americans lost trillions of dollars of household wealth when housing prices crashed, while banks seized about five million homes. But what’s just beginning to emerge is how, as in the recession years, the recovery itself continues to drive the process of transferring wealth and power from the bottom to the top.

      From 2009-2012, the top 1 percent of Americans captured 95 percent of income gains. Now, as the housing market rebounds, billions of dollars in recovered housing wealth are flowing straight to Wall Street instead of to families and communities. Since spring 2012, just at the time when Blackstone began buying foreclosed homes in bulk, an estimated $88 billion of housing wealth accumulation has gone straight to banks or institutional investors as a result of their residential property holdings, according to an analysis by TomDispatch. And it’s a number that’s likely to just keep growing.

      Deutsche Bank was also prominently involved in dubious cross-border-lending schemes targeting the public infrastructure of German communities. Greed is international. And that's why there is an industry for it.

  • Bloom where you are planted
    • Thanks for explaining Neta. Good luck anyway. For me as a German, I can assure you, the idea of criminalizing intermarriage is highly disturbing. Maybe I should add, similarly disturbing is the use of the term race by many American Jews lately.

    • I wondered about that too, MY1. Could it be related to the fact that one needs knowledge of Japanese to read her blog killingwithoutconsequence.com?

      Could it mean, it's illegal to marry anyone that is not Palestinian plus who has the same status (Israeli Arab, WB/Gaza citizen, Jerusalemite, however that was termed. Anyway someone that can live but not vote there.

      Apart from that allowance to marry inside your special groups marriages are illegal. You cannot marry a solidarity activist for instance?

      Whatyathink?

      Winter feels very, very familiar. And if my above interpretation is correct, I don't object to rootedness, which admittedly triggers series of textual associations.

  • Settler leader Dani Dayan given yet another platform in the NY Times
  • Tell FIFA to dump Israel now, urges international campaign
    • Times of Israel - Naftush's link: Israel says football facilities are sometimes used by Palestinian militants to fire rockets at its cities and warns that sport has been used as a tool to disseminate anti-Israeli propaganda.

      The first part can of course be considered a variation on the usual standard. Impossible to refute by the Palestinians. Maybe one should approach the arguments that the disabled or killed player were terrorists too with probability theory.

      The latter is of course highly interesting. But thanks to Annie we got a glimpse of that.

      It doesn't show on en.Wikipedia or the Englsih version to the extend it should, but Sepp Blatter is corrupt.

  • Boston subway ads are shocking-- 'and so is the reality on the ground'
    • Ah, that the loophole Israel tried to exploit. First seizure "by way of military necessity" then "privatization", or its Israeli equivalent of a 99-year lease to Israeli nationals only.

  • Let it go
    • I was going to write something similar, Elliot. How can it be self-hatred if you don't accept the artificially created Jewish Zionist identity, to start with. Its basic premise is: United as Zionists against the world out there we must stand, Jewish dissenters are self-haters. Since Zionism (and apartness?) is the essence of Judaism.

      Does that make Israeli anti- or post-Zionists self-haters too?

  • The most interesting journalist in the world
  • Hillary Clinton's flipflop: We were wrong to take hard line against settlements
    • yonah, I would like to understand this better than I do.

      Netanyahu’s druthers count in a certain segment, but don’t make the difference with Jewish Democrats who are looking for a candidate. Hillary predominates the expectations regarding nomination in a way that I can not recall a parallel.

      Nethanyahu's choices are paid attention to in American Jewish circles? With the exception of Jewish democrats? They are a different matter. They will look for a different candidate?

      Well Hillary is a democrat. Isn't she. Although, maybe with a slight neoconservative tinge?

      Expectations that Hillary will win the primaries are much higher than during any earlier pre-election time you witnessed?

      What exactly do you have in mind here. Media generally, or only the American Jewish community and their media?

    • I lost all respect for Hillary during her election campaign. And I actually respect Americans collectively that they did not choose her. Admittedly, I was impressed by the way she handled the Lewinsky affair of her husband. American Puritanism gone politics.

      Somewhat I doubt, but it would be very helpful if journalist paid a lot of attention to everything she writes about Netanyahu and Israel in her book. Maybe then even money won't work. On the other hand I am not holding my breath.

  • Houston stadium security detains soccer fan for waving Palestinian flag as 'racial slur'
    • Interesting, Annie. Soccer themes are quite helpful. If I pass on these stories, my partner actually listens. And since he had just discovered that the US will be in our group in Brazil, the chances were good. ;)

      ***************

      In this irony? Or do I have reflect deeply if this usage couldn't happen to me under any circumstances? Admittedly I am not completely sure.

      That's when, she says, security manager Nathan Buchanan told her the flag "infers a racial slur." (We don't know what's more offensive -- the premise that the flag is somehow racist, or that he allegedly said "infers" when he should have said "implies.")

      Merriam Webster - infer

      Usage Discussion of INFER
      Sir Thomas More is the first writer known to have used both infer and imply in their approved senses (1528). He is also the first to have used infer in a sense close in meaning to imply (1533). Both of these uses of infer coexisted without comment until some time around the end of World War I. Since then, senses 3 and 4 of infer have been frequently condemned as an undesirable blurring of a useful distinction. The actual blurring has been done by the commentators. Sense 3, descended from More's use of 1533, does not occur with a personal subject. When objections arose, they were to a use with a personal subject (now sense 4). Since dictionaries did not recognize this use specifically, the objectors assumed that sense 3 was the one they found illogical, even though it had been in respectable use for four centuries. The actual usage condemned was a spoken one never used in logical discourse. At present sense 4 is found in print chiefly in letters to the editor and other informal prose, not in serious intellectual writing. The controversy over sense 4 has apparently reduced the frequency of use of sense 3.

  • Jewish safety in Europe and Muslim safety are interconnected
    • On the other, the vast majority of anti-Semitic hatecrimes have come from muslim immigrants. So you have a mental perception that is clashing with everyday realities.

      Krauss, the German Center for the Study of Antisemitism in Berlin dared to devote one of its yearbooks to the idea of Antisemitism and "anti-Muslim racism" a couple of years ago. I can understand their intentions. I was starting to worry too, what would happen to Muslims here under the conditions of heated propaganda during the WOT. Remember Breivik? That is the most prominent result.

      The center supported extensive research on young Muslim on German ground. Obviously the idea was to develop programs based on this research. Some exist now. And yes, they looked into antisemitic stereotypes of these kids.

      For the Jerusalem Post following our anti-Germans (pro-Israel hawks) in unison with our own German Jewish neoconservative co-citizen the very idea of wondering what could be the result of Islamophobia on German ground was an affront. They argued that obviously Arabs had to be targeted and not understood. They were the most antisemitic group on earth. Matthias Künzel: (German article) The center of the study of antisemitism fights Islamophobia. Which is completely misleading. Künzel wrote a book about the Mufti of Jerusalems Nazi ties. I once prevented him from adding a link in one of his articles for the The Weekly Standard A link to a US propaganda piece claiming Helmut Kohl had uttered antisemitic stereotypes in a meeting with Iranians. I never liked Kohl, but the piece was so obviously propaganda. I couldn't believe Künzel took it at face value.

      Its a complex issue. But the questions on my minds too were: Could public agitation against Muslim collectively draw some of our young people with Muslim background into the camp of Islamic fundamentalist ideologues. Or otherwise plan actions against Jewish institutions? So yes, you can see me firmly on the side of the Center, since obviously one should study the specific of Arab Antisemitism these kids bring along over here and the danger it could cause to German Jews. No?

      Is it wrong to study hate speech against anyone but the Jewish communities in Europe?

      Since you are still a student. To what extend did you experience the anti-Muslim propaganda as a result of and supporting US actions post 911?

      Have you read: Fear Inc: The Roots of the Islamophobia Network in America

      Where are you? In France?

    • Krauss, I am wondering for quite some time now about the frequent use of racial and race by Jewish American. Is that based on Bell Curve wisdom?

      Give me one reason why you need the word.

      when you are the racial/religious minority, it is in your racial self-interest

      Why not: it's in the self-interest of minorities to be liberal.

    • The Danish rescue of Jews is often mentioned, but the Swedish reception of them is also important – it marked an adroit, though perhaps not very creditable, change of sides by the Swedes, hitherto pro-Axis. They could see which way the wind was blowing.

      For whatever reason an early Nazi supporter and party member--but apparently someone who never left the party in spite of serious concerns after the assassination of Röhm and his circles (engl. The Night of the long Knivers, German Röhm Putsch 1934)-- is never mentioned in this context.

      en.Wikipedia Georg Ferdinant Duckwitz. Without his information, the fact that he was in Denmark at the time and his efforts , it is very doubtful it would have happened.

    • Walid, from your Guardian link:

      However, his image turned sour in the 1960s, thanks to Soviet antagonism towards the Vatican and a German play by Rolf Hochhuth, The Deputy, which vilified the pope, accusing him of silence and inaction over the Jews. It was a trend that intensified with the publication of Hitler's Pope, a book by John Cornwell.

      By now Rolf Hochhut surfaced as a defender of David Irving among other things.

    • Palikari, Arabophobia is so deeply ingrained in Zionism, that strictly it is no surprise that it surfaced heavily in the last decade for all to see. Many of us simply weren't aware of it before.

      While I doubt that the French Jews are so stupid to vote for Pen, although she apparently dropped anti-Semitism, it was pretty easy to see that support for Israel and/or the neoconservative emprie mind seems to be highly compatible with the ideology of the xenophobic right over here as far as Muslim are concerned. Do you realize this, as she in fact in fact may have?

      Some people surfaced here in the German debates too, I would have never expected ever to see in a xenophobic context. And, yes they occasionally were invited by the respective nationalist parties to party events of the neo-right.

      You only need to take a look into Anders Brevik's collection of the writings of Jewish/neoconservative anti-Muslim agitators.

      Jewish safety and “Muslim safety” in Europe are NOT interconnected.

      Since one of the most striking homicide series here in Germany targeted Muslim for about a decade, it obviously is. And not only in Germany. The EU's duty is to watch all types of xenophobia.

      Zionism always had a paradox at is core. On one side it demanded that diaspora Jews should be able to remain where they are and should be guaranteed equal rights. on the other it claimed "the Jews" actually were a nation within every other nation/a state within the state. Which is exactly what the right said at the time.

      It also still is how xenophobes define the not belonging other. Muslim are not rooted/indigenous here, thus they do not belong. That's in a nutshell was the argument about "the Jews" too.

  • US is 'pushing privately' on settlements, as reporters point out nothing has ever come of that
    • Citizen, it feels you respond to a highly cynical comment as if it was a praise of the Obama administration. At least it feels to me.

  • Another pro-Israel student leader offers himself as advocate for 'the Palestinian people' (shirtless)
    • psychops. It's really amazing that people seem to believe it can be solved with rebranding and PR. Even transparently bad one at that. How stupid do they think people are.

      Trying to sell hasbara in new "sexed up" bottles?

      No doubt these type of efforts are always well sponsored. Will the funds help to get support by other self-interested characters? Maybe. But many? I seriously doubt. Why should you shift from established Hillel, to the extend you haven't left it already for Open Hillel, to join JUMP?

      "Justice and Uniting for Mideast Peace" simply tries to lure kids away from Students for Justice in Palestine, that's were the "Justice" comes from. And Peace of course is standard by now. Scholars for Peace in the Middle East. Really daring to add justice to it. But at least they seem to have read Max. African refugees. Keeps minds away from the core issue of "the conflict".

      Sex sells? Quite funny juxtaposition of the female Israeli pin up girl and Raphael, the son (Fils).

      Israel's sex strategy reminds me of my earliest encounters with fights between defenders of the neoconservative world view and critics of both them and Israel. The arguments of the lovers of Zion to my utter puzzlement frequently ended with sexist slanders. Something of course all over the place concerning "the Arabs" in its diverse shapes anyway but usually in the absence of real Arabs I discovered around the same time. I can't help, but it suddenly was on my mind. Kind of the Janus face of sex sells.

  • I am Palestinian, and I am human, and I am here
    • Great response, Sarah. How could you have known, really.

      No, it doesn't matter. Every collective has its assholes. If I may.

      Great piece. Be well in anything you do!

  • Discrimination is legal, there are no Israelis: Reading the Supreme Court’s decisions on Israeli nationality
    • Complex article.

      I am not sure if I completely understand this. So the first verdict concerned the appeal by Ani-Israel against the majority opinion in which Fogelman was a dissenter. And then the founder of Ani-Israel, Prof. Uzzi Ornan had a separate case, in which he demanded that his passport does not reflect his religion? Were both High Court cases?

      The ink had not yet dried on this decree when another panel of Supreme Court Judges produced – much faster, and under the veil of silence offered by the cooperative and uninterested Israeli media – another essential and crucial verdict directly related to the same issue.

      Hmm? Maybe it helps to read it again.

      As many of the immigrants into Israel by virtue of the “law of Return” are not recognized as Jews by the rabbinical establishment, the registry of a person as “non Jewish” while at the same time “eligible according to the Law of Return” is no real problem for the highly convoluted Israeli bureaucracy. Kaniuk conducted an adequate legal battle and his aim was fulfilled. But he remained a citizen by virtue of the Law of Return.

      Wikipedia: Yoram Kaniuk - Legal status as Jew.

  • Jeff Goldberg gets hit from right and left for suggesting Jews should leave Europe
    • Israel’s actions only give Jew-hatred an excuse. Jew-hatred is an irrational, seemingly self-replicating hatred that is based on nothing,

      How about redefining "irrational" and "nothing" too? Especially since your first sentence contains action.

  • Palestinian citizens of Israel protest draft in Tel Aviv as passersby tell them to die or emigrate
    • Well, benedictus, since they would have no point to protest there. I would advise Hezbollah's headquarter crowd to first reflect on possible intentions behind the event. Or do a little research if the crowd could possibly have escaped some type of mental institution (?) ... In any case, interesting and creative scenario. Maybe something for Kathy?

      But here goes according your expectation: They would be massacred.

    • glad you admit the divide and conquer aspect of it, yonah.

      Even if this draft’s designers are not set on the same better future that I have in mind, I think the discussion of the one state solution should at the least be mentioned in discussing this issue. It seems a little thin, a little skinny, a little skimpy, a little superficial, a tad too ethereal and other worldly, to talk about one state in theory and then to come to an issue like this and not discuss it at all.

      I don't think I can mentally follow you here. Obviously in a democratic one state solution it wouldn't be an issue anymore. But mentioned by whom in what discussion? By Andreas Hackl? By the protesters? Why should for them these issues be related other than "justifying" the anger and hatred Hackl witnesses?

      It feels you cannot allude to the wider MW or Hackl's focus. You obviously did not have the Knesset discussions around the bill in mind.

      See, I am a loss.

    • Interesting rationalization, yonah.

      Do you differentiate between Christian "Arabs" and Muslim "Arabs" too? Why exactly should we in the West differentiate between them? Don't they share the same history?

      Did religion matter in the "integration of the US armed forces"? Or do you think that discrimination against Muslim Palestinians will be more easily understood in the US than discrimination against Christian Arabs? They have many other Arab states to go to after all?

      It no doubt could be a useful propaganda tool. But apart from that?

  • For wearing veil, woman is ordered off Jerusalem light rail and frisked
    • but what kind of "security profile" includes groups of women with small children?

      Great point, piotr. Had this immediately been on Leanne's mind, I am sure she would have been more brave.

      But then, even buggies are suspicious, if pushed by a Muslim woman.

      For whatever reason I had my first surprise encounter with a Jewish Orthodox man in mind too. It's somewhere in the pipeline.

      I have to admit I somewhat welcome headscarves around, Wonderful counterpoint to the the occasional hyper-exhibitionism. ;)

    • eljay, I don't think the habit is spooky in itself, but it is frightening because of the context. It immediately signals Muslim and not secular but quite possibly also fundamentalist. You know kind of: wasn't there a female suicide bomber too? It sends a clear Muslim signal. Hamas and Hisbollah and all you know.

      I don't envy women that have to wear it. If they choose to do, that is a completely different matter. I do respond to headscarves differently. Some wear them enormously elegantly over here. But even they apparently are offensive to some of my Jewish German co-towners. And that's because the habit signals Muslim. Obviously.

      In Vienna, I am not completely sure, but maybe it was at a tram station. I turned around and had an orthodox Jew right in front of me inches away really. Huge, black coat, black hat, black beard, peyot and all. And I have to admit that I was startled. Not sure if it was since it was so unexpected, since it was so close, or since it was really the first orthodox Jew I have ever met. But met exactly in this surprise moment.

  • Michael Oren finds Israel vindicated by UN report that it slaughtered 101 civilians, including 33 children
    • Important topic, David. Well done.

      One minor note: "alleged" always leaves a loophole one can try to slip through. ;)

  • Soldiers detaining Palestinian schoolgirls for picking cherries is reminiscent of Germany in 30s -- Misgav
    • weareone, I shouldn't have used hot air, a term an English friend used a lot.
      Maybe I should have tentatively asked, if you were in fact misusing Avi Misgav's article to get something over that was on your mind, which you found much more interesting than the article itself. Or the article only seemed to confirm what was on your mind already?

      To the extend my response was emotional, my use of the term may be evidence--I did perceive yours as highly emotional, and wondered about the exact source of what felt like agitation--it was mainly a reaction to this "prophetic" passage:

      imo, this moves us into the next phase. I’ve posted articles and videos (link to globalresearch.ca; link to nkusa.org discussion of this topic begins around 10:00) on other threads in which the authors call for the dismantlement of israel, rather than one democratic state as a continuation of israel, because israel is an illegitimate occupation and Palestinian sovereignty must be reinstated.

      Also, this article seems to suggest that sociopathy may be so deeply ingrained within Zionist culture that they are unable to live in peace with others. As Sharmine Narwani said:( link to english.al-akhbar.com )

      Your nkusa.org did not work for me, but I looked a bit around in the interview section. Your link suggested it must be around there. Hmm, even if I correct the link, I cannot find the comment sections you allude to anywhere. Can you help? Are you alluding to the discussion on Press TV?

      Sociopath is a term whose usage is still mainly based on research of hard core criminals. There are new approaches in the field. ... Can you tell me what you are trying to suggest with the usage of the term. It's quite a bit of an innovation to use it for a culture instead of for a deviant individual.

      You may find this all very, very exiting, like a potential action movie to watch in the near future from the comfort of your armchair, but I doubt you are helping Palestinians. Of course my impressions from your words alone may be completely mistaken. Bad hermeneutics.

      If I where part of the larger Israeli misinformation camp, I would sent out messengers like you that hotly favor the idea Israel and its hawkish supporters claim is in fact the desire behind BDS: BDS seeks the destruction of Israel. So that undecided people that may already have this idea in their heads then stumble about exited comment like yours and leave again feeling the meme is completely justified.


      Ynetnews Special: Fascism in Jewish state? Experts divided on whether nationalistic trends in Israel tantamount to fascism, Uri Misgav

    • Yes, too late for many but not for those who profit from war.

      You think that's where Avi's line of thought would automatically end? I am not sure. I don't think the camp of profiteers and the camp of "underestimaters" were necessarily congruent. Fact is, they underestimated Hitler, they thought they could control him. When they realized, they couldn't: it was too late. That's how I read it. We can ask him.

      I can see that your "Israel has no right to exist" quite possibly is meant to express defiance. Simply turning the Nethanyahu's core demand around. No?

      Can you elaborate on the vision behind it in the real world, hopefully without ending up with another standard that includes "sea"? How do you think it should play out in reality? Or is it simply hot air?

    • I was called for dinner, was already there and returned to check too late. There may be other "bugs"

      especially if SHOULD BE especially since

      obviously.

    • ;) in other words, it's not that you don't know this is one of Phil's basics, but that you actually have a slight style complaint.

      I had no problems to read it correctly immediately. And he is absolutely correct that Uri Misgav is an interesting Haaretz voice, maybe nobody so far noticed.

      But, strictly I have one minor offer too. Not that it is important. To stay in tune with mood in the air /Zeitgeist/1932 imagery, he should have kept out Kristallnacht or Kristallnacht like, especially if he gets the rise of the Nazis exactly right. Although, is he indicating there is nothing spontaneous about the stickers? Hmm? Well, yes, they somewhat cannot be. OK, even if it wasn't spontaneous. Not quite there yet.

      Great article. I would be at a loss to pick out my favorite passages. I liked it all.

  • Clinton cautioned Israelis on giving up Golan because Syrians might try to poison Sea of Galilee
    • Contracting and procurement personnel were actually given awards for managing to spend it all by the end of the year, so the services wouldn’t have to give any of it back to the Treasury.

      Same over here. We even have a word for that in both federal and state institutions: Dezemberfieber = December fiever. A good time of the year to get something for whatever institution, you usually have troubles getting.

      The basic assumption being. Money that goes back, or is not spent, might result in cuts in the next budget.

    • Yep, just, interesting. Especially the Haaretz article. On the other hand nothing really unusual. The US has this type of "black budget" too. Wiki link. And the US had to cut its military budget too under Obama. The little I read about it was about cutting soldiers benefits and pension. Maybe that was only the special focus of the people debating it.

      There is another interesting article on Haaretz. A short review and interview with Gareth Porter: Was the Iranian threat fabricated by Israel and the U.S.?. I have to admit that I find his basic argument quite convincing.

    • Thanks Shmuel, for the English abstract. I realized too late that I had inserted something and that now the question at the end did not make sense anymore.

      You got that right.

    • Aren’t the Americans talking out of both sides of their mouths?

      I had this comment in mind: Yes, it called diplomacy. ;)

  • Public debate on Zionism sets a crucial precedent
    • The United States has Christmas, a Christian holiday, as a federal holiday. It has no Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, or pagan holidays as federal holidays.

      How many Holidays on this list or for that matter this or this would you want to include? Just one? Since I can see only one officially for Christianity.

      Or would it suffice if the US abandoned Christmas and Christmas trees? Since strictly if every religion gets just one religious holiday and it is then--according to the respective population's religions--also turned into on the into a holiday on the State level, it may be a complicated democratic process. Over here we have strong faction of seculars for instance. But usually they don't complain about religious holidays. What I am trying to get at, I have no doubt that employers would protest if public holidays are expanded too much. ;) Religions in the United States In other words, you then have also to suggest which secular holidays you think could be dropped and not all people may share your opinion.

      Not over here in my circles, but on the US web I encountered complaints about the Christmas trees everywhere. Admittedly I was puzzled since strictly Christmas trees are no religious symbol at all. Now since the complaint was not so much about the commercial use but the trees in public places, I wondered if I should start an initiative to include Chanukah/Hanukkah symbolism. The menorah? The problem is, compared to the fir tree that is clearly religious symbolism. No? Apparently that has been challenged.

      Can you explain the history of the nine branch version?

  • Netanyahu says Jews invented the idea of 'honoring your father and mother'
    • Thanks, Hostage.

      That doesn't quite fit into the usual range of topics on my reading list. Well you already triggered excursions into law. But that is closer to the range really. But I tried to get a basic impression of the larger debate and I guess, I'll give David Flusser's Jesus portrait a try. Apparently targum are contained in the larger matter (Dead Sea Scrolls). Actually I already was a bit surprised about myself when I read Chilton's Rabbi Jesus. But why not sage. And strictly it makes sense to read the gospels from the Jewish background. To be quite honest, I mainly bought a bible as a protest that it did not surface in my Catholic religion classes, but never really spent much time over it. ;)

      Only "Judaistik"/Jewish studies offer Aramaic here in Cologne, Babylonian Talmud.

      In any case Aramaic still seems the dominant view. Check Encyclopedia Britannica. Wikipedia even has an article on the language of Jesus, if I recall correctly. Yes - link

      I will keep a critical distance to Nethanyhu never the less. .

    • Hostage, no intention to get into New Testament scholarship way over my head. But it seems that the scholars you cite ultimately lead me into a debate about what language Jesus spoke. The general consent still seems to be Aramaic but these scholars seem to lead towards Hebrew:

      pdf.file: Weston W. Fields on David Bivin and Roy Blizzard:

      Certainly Aramaic was used, but not as much as it was four or five centuries earlier by the returning captives from Aramaic-speaking Babylon. Aramaic was the language of the upper class and was well-known and used among scholars for certain purposes.

      Well if that is true, then the historical Jesus should have spoken Hebrew, as Nethanyahu suggested. Which makes Netanayhu more informed then the pope. ;)

      I was witnessing a H-Net debate at the time of the release of Gibson's movie The Passion of Christ. I remember being a little irritated by a swarmy Christian lady, I till recently thought was a scholar. There was no question about language at the time. Only the repetition that all Christians consider "the Jews" as killers of Christ, and this makes the movie dangerous and antisemitic. Even if they all think this anyway? The lady later was influential in the purging of my favorite editor of the list. For a year the list went dead, then it was taken up again from Israel.

      Today I discovered a pastor that apparently wrote about the movie's use of language. I only looked at the article very shortly.

      What Language Did Jesus Speak? Why Does It Matter?

      he vast majority of readers did not contact me, which is just fine. They had no particular reason to do so. A few dozen people emailed me to thank me for what I had written.

      And then there were the others, those who were not happy with me and what I had written. Sometimes they wrote nasty notes, criticizing my scholarship and even my Christian character. Sometimes they wrote extensive treatises, arguing at length for a position different from the one I had taken in my series. Among those who wrote, a few referred to credible scholars who have argued that Hebrew and/or Greek were commonly used by Jews in Judea during the time of Jesus. Some who contacted me seemed to believe that because the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, Jesus must have spoken Hebrew, otherwise somehow his mission as the Messiah would have been deficient. Some were worried that if Jesus spoke Aramaic, this would contradict passages in the Gospel of John that refer to Hebrew being spoken (though not by Jesus, actually).

      In the last couple of years, I have run into a new reason why some people dispute the notion that Jesus spoke Aramaic. It has to do with the passion among some Muslims for an Aramaic-speaking Jesus. Presumably, and I have not followed these arguments carefully, certain Muslims use the idea that Jesus spoke Aramaic as a support for the truth of Islam. In response, some Christians have taken up arms in favor of the Hebrew-speaking Jesus. Those who fight this battle have accused me of giving aid and comfort to the “opponents of Christianity” by suggesting that Jesus probably spoke Aramaic. (Note: If you are aware of other reasons why the language(s) of Jesus matter so much to some people, please let me know by leaving a comment below.)

      Is there no way out of politics, ever?

    • "Jesus was a native Aramaic speaker," he said about the largely defunct Semitic language closely related to Hebrew. "But he would have also known Hebrew because there were extant religious writings in Hebrew."

      This reminds me of Richard Witty's love for balance, and slightly of one of the most cherished who-Shakespeare-really-was-theories. A little Latin and less Greek, won't do. He had to be a nobleman.

      Apparently theologians may disagree occasionally.

      Rabbi Jesus. An Intimate Biography. The Jewish Life and Teaching That Inspired Christianity, Bruce Chilton.

      Their [Galilean Jews] understanding of the covenant came not from the written Thorah and Prophets in Hebrew, which few could read, but from their oral targum. A targum (Aramaic for "translation") was more than a verbatim translation of the Hebrew text: whole paragraphs were added and long sections loosely paraphrased by the meturgeman, a "translator" who handed on the local tradition of rendering scripture. (Just as a local rabbi designated ethical norms for living the Torah, a meturgeman memorized and recited the oral scripture.

  • A Papal confession to the Palestinian people
    • Were you also one of those little kids afraid to bite the wafer ? It might like….hurt Jesus or something

      It wasn't only that. It was the idea of eating however symbolically a supposedly once living person. Cannibalism? But of course he is reported to have said so. So I shouldn't really complain. But you hardly understand with eight the symbolism of it. ;)

    • Their ancient writings do not seem to directly address full atheism or other monotheist religions (There was a monotheist period in Egypt and there were the Zoroastrianists).

      Look, W.Jones, you remind me more and more of Sean McBride.

      There have been discussions for centuries how Akhenaten's (we use Echnaton) revolution could have influenced Judaism, not starting with Freud as far as I recall. Problem evidence is spare and I always asked myself how do you completely overturn a people's believe system in not even 20 years? Is that likely? Keep in mind, not a simple system like Christianity but a rather complex religious universe. But let's suppose for arguments sake the Jews were indeed influenced by it and shaped their own religion with an invisible God instead of a sun god, why should they refer to the Echnaton's Aton? Since he became the highest god in their universe?

      Concerning Zaroastrianism, that's usually not considered a precursor of monotheism or henotheism but a dualist religion, as far as I know. Dualism, at least it often feels to me, surfaces much more in Christianity with the counterforce Satan than in Judaism. Something I consider its core problem in relation to "the Other".

      You mean, ancient Jewish scribes and thinkers should have addressed the older systems just as Islam addresses both Judaism and Christianity? How could it, if it was not really related? Do I misunderstand?

      But that might be interesting: They also took a negative view of apostasy?

      They took, when, today, 1000 years back, 1944 years, 2000?

      What about historical experiences in your suggested ethnicity-religion juxtaposition. Look ethnicity may actually be used for a group that has a specific religion nowadays. A group with a specific culture, history and related memory. And I wouldn't really know why I should juxtapose it as you do. further down:

      further, “Jews” is a term that can refer either to adherents of a religion or an ethnicity.

      Back to the "negative view of apostasy". The basic Thora law has influenced what I was taught. I am not meant to worship other gods. Link Vatican: 1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have
      strange Gods before me.

      So yes, strictly apostasy seems to be top sin. But I guess only as long as I don't leave the monotheist context and don't start to adore, for instance, this laptop screen. Maybe if I remain in the monotheist context it would be OK? But that may be my private view and not the official view of my Church. ...

      I am not aware that converts have usually problems with their own kind, if that is what you have in mind. Again when, what time and circumstances do you have in mind. Or don't you need facts for your argument? I would assume there were quite a few both ways over the centuries. How would you develop a special "cultural rule" based on quite possibly intangible empirical evidence?

      Ironically they frequently had problems in their new religious home, or turned into ardent persecutors of their former folks. So your above divide (ethnicity-religion) may not suffice, are you alluding to Jewish laws or Jewish cultural memory, historical figures, and events when you allude to Jewish treatment of apostasy?

      Maybe you can explain to me me why a Christian writer would do something "naturally" like turning to polemics. Since you are attracted to polemics? What exactly does one do naturally, breathe, walk, digest. Do I write naturally in the same way?

    • There were other main things too that stuck up “flags” as innovations significantly beyond what Catholic theology had said. Don’t forget that Protestants see innovation as practically a virtue. The polar shift from anti-semitic innovations to nowadays some liberal Protestants going as far as seeing the foundations of Christian philosophy as “against the people” is actually based on similar premises about innovation.

      W.Jones, I doubt I can grasp those passages. Luther's revolt--surely justified as far as selling indulgences, paying for the purification for sins--was hardly about innovations. Quite the opposite really. It was like many earlier attempts a return to perceived roots a fight against decadence. A new go at Cistercians against the pomp and affluence of Cluny. The problem always seems to have been, already "ora et labora" and the working hands of the lay brothers. Cloisters got automatically got richer and richer. And thus less interested in the poor.

      Indulgence, by the way, seems to be still included in the last reform of the Codex Iuris Canonici from 1983. Still selling purification from sin? ...

      What other "flags" as innovation? I can see you hyphenate it, but I don't have any idea what I should fill in to get closer to the meaning.

      More on the "interesting story": I shouldn't have used the word relationship, but I didn't look it up for a long time, here a fast translation of the passage from the only prayer book I ever possessed. It follows eight commandments and something defined as church laws. It is simply called "other commandments/laws of the church".

      Other commandments of the church:

      Have I started against the strict prohibition of the Church an acquaintance with members of other faiths--Did I join public amusements in the closed time (Advent and Lent/fasting period)?-- Did I read books, the reading of which the Church has expressly forbidden?

      After this follows a passage in italics, that says there can also be sins that are not covered. It lists two specific cases. Have you denied to a family with many children needing more living space more space, did you deny to an employee the treatment of family members? I doubt I realized this at the time, but this too has a pretty hallow ring. No? ...

      Now the prohibition of amusement is interesting. That obsession, just as anti-Judaism you will have no difficulties to find in Augustine, quite a bit before the Crusades, although strictly it was restricted to certain times. My impression of Augustine's City of God was that he would have liked to get rid of every entertainment.

      It would be interesting for me to see where that passage is in their prayer book.

      It is a section in the prayer book under the header: Confession for Adults. Maybe I wasn't meant to read it at all. I have a really bad memories about the whole context and close to none about the preparatory classes for the confession and the communion, other than I did have problems with the idea that the host was meant to be Jesus' flesh. That I remember troubled me. I remember I didn't dare to chew it. Yes, Luther handled that part well by turning it into the earlier/later? last supper symbolically.

      The last two paragraphs have an odd feel and touch to me.

      Swiss, Austrians, south Germans, Yugoslavs, etc. have hardly been monolithic Catholics.

      Depends what time you are talking about. And up to a point it was definitively cuius regio eius religio

      Notice how the Germanic countries formed a dividing line wrt Catholicism/Protestantism. They had trouble understanding Latin in a way much different than French and Spaniards did.

      Look, I seriously doubt that the French, Italian or Spanish speaking masses understood Church Latin in either of these places. Obviously the academic elite did. The Church does not use simply Latin, as Ovid.

      I didn't understand what you are trying to say here either:

      Naturally, I sympathize with ancient Israel in these conflicts, however ... And whether there was anti-Semitism or not, the nationalists would or did still attempt at sundry times to achieve their model (eg. Bar Kochba vs the Roman pagans, the alliance with the Sassanids vs. the Byzantines, etc.). So the nationalism need not necessarily be seen as a reaction, although in the context of WWII, I think it was at least an indirect one to a serious extent.

      I don't get "nationalism need not necessarily be seen as reaction"? But what else or a reaction to what? Interference in the religious space? I am not suggesting it was a good thing to do, the revolt that is, neither seem the Rabbis have pre-Zionism. Also, why do you add alliances in this context, how are they related to the revolt?

    • I won't fix the link, here is another one: A History of Catholic Antisemitism: The Dark Side of the Church Hmm, that's how I thought he was spelled. Strictly I thought he pdf.file was from Michael too.

      I hate Augustinus not only for his horrible treatment of theater but also for his obvious antisemitism. And yes in Bernhard the Clairvaux' writings and quite a few others, it is also pretty apparent. Absolutely impossible to deny. What surprised me where the Jesuits. But then so did many, many others too, that I never read but heard about.

    • Yes, Shmuel, you better take care and realize you are watched closely, if you are a minority. So yes, in these conditions you better practice self-censorship.

      This is an interesting German character in the larger context. Johann Andreas Eisenmenger. I was quite a bit startled when I discovered an English translation of his book. If you scroll down to external links you will see it apparently is still around as pdf.file. Apparently back then learning didn't help much either.

      No doubt it is not so nice to be constantly reminded of this history, both as German and as someone brought up Catholic. So yes, ambivalence or maybe rigorous defense by other means ;) ...

      Thanks for the response. Hmm, Italy voted quite a bit for the Eurosceptics too. I cannot say, I like this European trend.

      The Pope later went on to Tel Aviv to be was sandwiched between two Zionist Polish liars who continue to build walls of hate and destruction: Persky (aka Peres) and Mileikowsky (aka Netanyahu). The Pope had to listen as both atheists said that God gave this land to the Jews

      How many decades does a Pole remain Polish? ... unnecessary for the larger argument. I am assuming the article is in Hebrew?

    • I have not come across that general set of views, at least surveying the period up to the Crusades.

      W.Jones, there is absolutely no doubt that the Catholic Church had a strong anti-Jewish vein over the centuries. I suppose you are aware what happened during the Crusades. But you can also look at this sculpture type you find on many Churches: the Jewish sow. Visual evidence.

      Private matters, but related for me: my own problems with the Catholic Church started quite early. More precisely at eight, when I prepared for the Holy Communion one year to early since my mother wanted to get mine and my brothers over with at the same time.

      There was a sin, I was supposed to confess: Did I have relations with people of other creeds. My mother saved the respective prayer book for me. I was outraged at the time, since my best girl friend was Protestant. Guess what my mother told me when I searched her support in this context. In the end I did not confess "my relationship". I have to check the history of this rule some times. My letters remain unanswered as far as the diocese, Catholic diaspora, is concerned.

      On the other hand I was never taught that "the Jews" killed Christ or any variant of the theme in my mandatory religion classes. But that was mainly post-Vatican II.

      The question to what extend the churches Anti-Judaism ultimately influenced antisemitism or even the Holocaust seems a more controversial issue: pdf: Holy Hatred: Christianity, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust, Robert Michel.

      I like the Israeli scholar Amon Raz-Krakotzkin quite a bit. He looks at a later time in Catholic-Jewish relations in his book: The Censor, the Editor and the Text. At that point in time the core of Catholic Censorship concerned to a larger extend anti-Catholic statements in Jewish scriptures, which at that point in time you no doubt could also find in Protestant texts. But Shmuel can tell you a lot more about the larger context. Censorship over the centuries is something I am interested in. The religious censors reign supreme over quite a bit of the time span. And then there is the Catholic censorship of books, remember?

    • Yes, no doubt, prophets can be annoying sometimes. ;)

      I love the line from Catholic antisemitism (Constantinian? - Constantinian Shift?) via Luther to Hitler. No doubt Hitler must have been baptized at one point in time ...

      I just clicked on some video-icons on the end of Annie's Message from Gaza youtube video. It took me to a revelation * pope the anti-Christ series starting with this up-to-the-minute one. Some were just too tediously long, occasionally passing "the Jews" too. But this one is an interesting embrace versus struggle against embrace of diverse venerable religious snake oil salesmen. As a highlight there is a video message from the pope. Strange story, indeed. Is the Vatican trying marketing techniques on US ground?

      I have to show it to one part of an elderly unmarried couple, a former homosexual Catholic priest. He is obsessed with studying these evangelical (?) tendencies over here, especially the interests and money behind it.

  • Fearing divestment from Israel, Jewish orgs oppose divestment to halt global warming
    • Annie, have you noticed Soros bought up Soda Stream shares. Now strictly I wouldn't have expected Soros in that context. Now since this is an unexpected name in the context, I am slightly wondering. But maybe his investment crew decided for him, based on "undervalued".

      Last c0mment for some days, I have something else to do now.

  • 'There is no veritable religious freedom here': Postcard from the Christian community in East Jerusalem
    • Stephen, I will try to check your site occasionally.

      But strictly I have this in mind: My Translation: Victims and Perpetrators at the same time? The moral dilemma of the Jewish (Funktionshäftlinge) functional camp inmates during the Shoa

      Most kapos, however, were former violent criminals and had no such motives.

      How do you know. One keeps hearing about 10 percent of inmates in this context. No doubt according to the Nazis Jews were to a high percentage also criminals, but how many actually were? Considering the high upward mobility and emphasis on learning at least in the German Jewish community, and strictly I wonder if it was so different anywhere else?

      Why don't we ever hear about the "Judenrat" the Jewish councils in a similar vein?

    • this is a long comment, and slightly off-topic here, but strictly about religion. I promise to shut up again for a while after that.

      But I had no change to post two responses on the latest contribution of Marc H. Ellis. The list was closed before before I could respond.

      Critics of Marc should consider this:

      Collaborators in the War Against the Jews. Marc H. Ellis

      Campus Watch: Profile of Marc H. Ellis: Director of the Center for American and Jewish Studies at Baylor University

      ****
      Stephen Shenfield: I didn't manage to respond to your justified challenge to my use of "interesting". In a nutshell: The Kapos too, must have been a a more complex crowd, at least it feels. I know one story where some decided to work for the Nazis to find out more about what was going on around them. Can any of these critics actually imagine how easy that was? Later they started a revolt. ... But strictly why I use "interesting" instead of "disgusting", what it obviously is. I basically wouldn't want to judge anyone that was forced into this context on superficial knowledge. But that is exactly what happens here. Thus "interesting".

      ****
      W.Jones, feels I am struggling with it less [the Jewish/indigenous prophetic] and less. But yes, basically it may well help to have a better grasp of Judaism, which the Jews among us have. A more solid knowledge of religion may help too. I have to admit that religion caught my attention in connection with the neoconservatives or more precisely the books I read when I stumbled accross the larger discourse.

      Could there be a larger struggle in American theology between Liberation theology and its more power friendly representatives, e.g. the religion from the Paleoconservative and the Judeo-Christian economic vision of religion of the neoconservatives:

      Neoconservatives,
      Jewish and Christian alike, respond that this is too broad a reading of the concept. They note that the Constitution prohibits the establishment of an official state religion but does not say that religion has no place as a motivating force in politics. The state merely cannot do anything for interfere with the individual practice (or non-practice, a point on which neoconservatives do not all agree) of religion. Judeo-Christian morality is the starting point of American culture, and neoconservatives believe that such controversial events as invocations at public school graduations and
      Nativity scenes on municipal property reflect this morality and do not stop followers of other faiths from practicing them.

      W.Jones: Ellis has chosen to write in free thought style rather than a scholarly one here that would address it, which would be very interesting, at least for me.

      This one does not feel "free thought style" to me, but rather well reflected. I wouldn't have converted the speech to a Kindle file, if it did not trigger the desire to grasp it better. But its true, Marc has a wide range of styles sometimes he is almost poetic. He no doubt handles language pretty well.

      ****
      I just discovered that another American theologian and professor in social ethics may belong to Marc's support group. I read all of Gary Dorrien's book on the neoconservatives. But at one point I also read the Catholic neoconservative camp in the US: First Things. Concerning Gary Dorrien, I remember, I was slightly wondering at the time, why an American theologian shifted to writing about politics. On the other hand, I cannot deny that in Marc Gerson's book about the neoconservatives reviewed above religion drew my attention too. Maybe more than anything else.

      Now, I will shut up for a while, but some may wonder, why Marc H. Ellis uses the coinage Constantinian Judaism and Christianity. It feels to me, he has this in mind. Link to Wikipedia

  • 'Ebony' article explores 'Why Black People Must Stand With Palestine'
    • Illinois:
      Milestones in abolition/reinstatement

      In January, 2000, Governor George Ryan established a moratorium on executions that would last over 10 years. At that point in Illinois' history, the state had exonerated 13 death row inmates in the same time that it had executed 12. Illinois has not executed anyone since the moratorium began, but it has exonerated 7 additional inmates, for a total of 20.

      Although Ryan's successor Rod Blagojevich kept the moratorium in place, the state continued to seek death sentences, adding 15 defendants to the state's recently vacated death row. The death penalty was a major issue in the 2010 gubernatorial election. The election of Democrat Pat Quinn paved the way for votes on a bill to abolish the death penalty in the Illinois House and Senate, and on March 9th, 2011 Governor Quinn signed legislation that made Illinois the 16th state to abolish the death penalty. Since the legislation was not retroactive, Quinn commuted the death sentences of all 15 men on Illinois' death row.

      A rather high percentage of innocent people on death row by 2000. No?

    • Nehisi Coates is interesting writer. Haven't checked his articles for a while.

      Black liberals and lefties may feel they have enough problems trying to help their own people here–the last thing they might want to do is to take on the Israel Lobby and have the “anti-semite” label slapped on them.

      Can't help, but Norman Podhoretz comes to mind in this context. Somewhat the peak of the iceberg from my limited perspective.

      I have to admit that I rarely ever witnessed such raw and undisguised racism as in the Trayvon Martin case. It was a perfect window into the larger American psyche.

      And for ever reason I made a similar connection as Kristian Davis Bailey: the war on terrorism coming home? Demand for security versus the right to live? Once you establish a scapegoat people feel rather free to add their own, for instance Trayvon Martin, the burglar suspect that mysteriously mutated into a mad killer in the time frame of about 1 minute 20 seconds. Hardly enough time to explain the asshole, sorry I cannot help, that you may not be, who he thinks you are. Especially if he carries a loaded gun. Notice Trayvon wasn't really unarmed, he used the concrete walk as a weapon, his lawyer told the carefully selected jurors.

      On Law and Disorder there is an interesting interview with attorney G. Flint Taylor. Chicago caught my attention before, when a group of law students checked death row cases, and found quite a few that should not be there. Could this story have been related to this case?

      I wish I could see the documentary by an academic US couple on death row again, which I saw many decades ago when I met them. The images of the black poet in his cage, how can you call it differently, awaiting his execution have burned themselves into my soul.

      Hasn't Chicago recently abolished the death penalty? ...

  • Repentant Enablers: German Christians, the Holocaust and the resurgence of German power
    • I'll reflect on this article. It must be the longest so far. Thus I converted it to a Kindle file for further reflection . ;) The prophetic gets much clearer as we go on, not clearer than liberation theology itself, though.

      They occasionally have events beyond the Catholic Protestant divide.

      Yes, I noticed, I left out "the Jews", but strictly during the last couple of years Jewish representatives where more and more absent. Besides, prominent German Jews, especially one from Cologne disappointed me, since they agitated against the building of the mosque. Which now is finished. Theologically the Muslim seem to have picked up the "Semite" interest of the event planners.

      But I'll ask them if they could imagine events with the Jewish community here, which still is strongly orthodox as everywhere in Germany. It's comparatively tiny anyway. I have no idea if the Reform still have to get private sponsorship, while the orthodox automatically get the money via the official state system (church gets automatically 10% of state taxes). So strictly it wouldn't be representative of the Jewish side either, if they worked with the main synagogue.

      Friends told me that the fight for Reform was a really heavy one over here, and I never had the impression it was dictated by the German state, but strictly always assumed it was a completely post Holocaust affair and done in agreement with the surviving Jewish community. I may be wrong though.

    • There was never any possibility of the great majority of victims receiving reparations because they did not survive.

      That's true, and no doubt on many minds. This realization is what made me understand Norman's interest in writing the book about the Holocaust industry.

      But strictly below all that lie legal claims of descendants, and the US costume to bundle claims must not necessarily be bad. Although in this context no doubt not bad business either.

      Its not really my expertise and I never read either Norman Finkelstein's book or the resulting challenges.

      But how I remember from his site, his father got a direct pension from the German state, while his mother who also spent quite some time in a camp never got a penny.

      I guess the Jewish Claims Conference somehow bundles claims. I guess you have to be informed about them and then apply. And of course you have to prove you where in a camp. ... I have no idea, if you always can.

      Now, I doubt that Norman Finkelstein's mother couldn't for whatever reason prove that, since she was a witness on a trial against the "perpetrators" over here in the early sixties as one of the surviving camp inmates and Norman accompanied her.

      Isn't it interesting, that Norman was attacked via his mother, who was called a Kapo in the process?

    • thanks a lot Marc for posting one of your speeches here. Appreciated.

      I wondered if Ulzen is Uelzen. Yes that made me curious. There are more speeches prepared for us Germans? I'd love to read the one on Luther. I once mediated on conversion to Protestantism, I admittedly preferred the pastor to my Catholic priest. But then two things happened. I discovered Luther's antisemitism and as a close second my friend the pastor was fired by his presbyterium in my home city at the time. Apparently that solved the issue of conversion once and for all. Although, I was always interested in Judaism as the earlier "field of ideas".

      Hmm, I would be almost as interested to read all of speeches, as I would have been to check if some spots on your itinerary are close to me. I see you are in Stuttgart soon, the rest is not so easy to google up. Would it have been hard to convince the Karl Rahner academy here to invite you, had I known earlier? They occasionally have events beyond the Catholic Protestant divide. We have to wait to see if the Muslim will enter the frame at one point. ...

    • You shouldn't address Germany only in this context, pabelmont, but also the Jewish claims conference, if that is what it is called. If I recall correctly there has been a more recent deal. Money that is supposed to go to survivors, about one third lives in Israel. Could be it is meant for special care needs. Can you imagine a US based Jewish organization would allow the Germans to add the suggested sentence to the treaty? Do you think an Israeli would allow that?

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    • Hmm, I never could understand mistakes resulting from phonetics, when I lived in London. In any case, "there - their" has to be corrected in your mind occasionally. Seems I was only semi-attentive.

      Maybe since I wanted to get one basic conviction about a system like the Nazis' over. Somewhat between the lines, the only minor route of escape for journalists at that time too. It is often alluded to by a specific quote. First they came for the Socialists ...

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