Commenter Profile

Total number of comments: 360 (since 2010-05-02 23:41:10)

lobewyper

Age 69, white male, gentile, politically independent, US citizen,graduate degree.

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  • Game changer: Hillary says Israeli restrictions on women remind her of Rosa Parks and Iran
    • Please, Antidote, I was joking. (I guess I'm not going to be asked to do the New Years' Eve Jimmy Fallon show, after all.)

    • And if war it is to be, some folks in Israel (and AIPAC) are about to learn something about Chicago-style politics--the only rule of which is, you play to win!

    • If Hillary stands by her comments here, we will be on the verge of a full-scale "war" with Israel, which is the last thing Israel needs about now...

    • Look, we're forgetting the "Rosa Parks" parallel Hillary drew. She has now endorsed the view of many that Israel is an apartheid state. I agree with Phil--this is a potential "game changer." This charge cannot go unchallenged by Israel, because of the enormous hated of such by Americans and their history of slavery. Unfortunately for Israel, they are a thousand times guilty of apartheid!!!

    • How true...

    • eee,

      I'm serious about Hillary's awakening the women of the world to their mistreatment by many Israelis. Apparently, this mistreatment doesn't concern you in the slightest. (Now, ask me if I'm surprised!)

    • Hillary knew very well that her remarks would become public. She and the administration are seriously ramping up pressure on the Israeli government.

    • Dumvitaestspesest (Please choose another, easier to spell pseudonym):

      I've already explained about regime change (see above post). :)

    • After much reflection, I have decided that Hillary has struck a very low blow here against the Israeli government. In a few careless remarks, she has mobilized the feminine population of the entire earth against the Israeli regime. Speaking of regime, I hope Kristol has enough strength left to point out that Hillary is clearly calling for "regime change"in Israel--who just happens to be our "best friend"!

    • My hope is that the recent statements by Clinton and Panetta will lead to similar sentiments being voiced by at least a few members of Congress--with added comments re: Palestinian rights.

    • The administration has now fired several warning shots. What the Israeli government does in response will be interesting to see. They are playing with fire, now, and fire can be very dangerous!

    • From the YNET story (link above)

      "Some members of the forum said that Clinton's statements about Israel stemmed from genuine fear for the country's future."

      Look, folks--"self-hating Jews" appear to be multipying faster than rabbits. Somebody DO something!

    • Just meant, "human" brother...

    • Why aren't Clinton's remarks here in the NYT???

    • Bibi, I'll bet you're still chuckling about how you humiliated Obama in front of his own Congress! Payback time, my brother.

    • Next Kristol piece header: "US Secretary of State Channels Anti-Semitism!"

    • OMG! The wheels are really starting to come off the Israeli bandwagon. The Israeli government is coming under fire from OUR OWN GOVERNMENT!!! (All this talk of attacking Iran has apparently worried the present administration.) I especially appreciated Hillary's defense of Israeli NGO's.

  • Kristol accuses Obama of wanting the Jewish state to disappear
    • Mr. Kristol,

      The fact that you make no mention of Mr. Sarkozy (Obama's best friend who BTW shares his view of Bibi) in your remarks shows you to be a true francophile...

    • Message to Kristol:

      “Anyone can become angry - that is easy, but to be angry with the right person at the right time, and for the right purpose and in the right way - that is not within everyone's power and that is not easy.”--Aristotole

      Good luck with this Bill--you've obviously still have a lot to learn...

    • Kristol is lying. Panetta told the Israelis to get to the table THREE times, not two. :

      Phil wrote: "Kristol's statement is remarkable for its brittle petulance"

      "Brittle petulance"--Phil, great writing! Time to quit MW and become a best-selling author!

  • Panetta's last words to Israel: 'Get to the damn table... Get to the damn table'
    • Kathleen,

      What Pollack thinks is less important than what our top officials think. Panetta and the rest of our government are in a very difficult position, because to truly prevent Iran from going nuclear would likely require "regime change" and American forces on the ground in Iran. We are going to continue to "talk tough," but I don't think the American public (much less, economy) would stand for it. Panetta HAS to talk tough or his administration loses key AIPAC-related money and support. But, reading between the lines, there will not be an attack on Iran, by us or anybody else--at least not for the foreseeable future (My $.02).

    • Guys, the point of the article is: THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE ANY ISRAELI ATTACK ON IRAN!!!

    • A dog wagging its own tail? What a novel concept!

  • Roll over Ben-Gurion and tell Jabotinsky the news (even Tablet's had enough)
    • Phil wrote:

      "In so many words, Zionism is over, you've done it in, we see our Jewish lives in America, not in rightwing exclusivism."

      I didn't see the authors as smug, but instead as quite courageous. My take: The authors are telling the Israelis that their behavior over time flies in the face of some of their most sacred principles, and they decided to keep their principles and leave Israel to its fate.

      It seems that the Israelis' disregard for the belief systems of others (including most diasporan Jews) has led fairly directly to the challenges they now face. They are under attack by their fellow Jews and many others, as well. The interesting question is, How did it come to this? The Israelis are very good at warfare, threats, and intimidation--but not with "hearts and minds." They would LOVE a war with Iran, because it would at least temporarily unify Jews everywhere against the common enemy and reduce the social conflicts within Israeli society.

      The Israelis are now in a "war" they are going to lose, and lose badly. They don't understand that others can oppose (even hate) them--not because they are Jews, but because they are oppressors and violate basic human rights and human decency. As the authors of the article point out, Israeli attempts to propagandize them were totally inept and offensive (my "hearts and minds" point).

      Last, AIPAC won't be able to save Israel from itself, either.

  • 'Commentary' suggests Ron Paul's heresy on Israel support is anti-Semitic
  • Marcus warns, US Jews could abandon Israel over treatment of women (ixnay about alestiniansPay)
    • That sounds like the next experiment we need to conduct. Which one of us gets to be first in line???

    • From Marcus article:

      ●Ultra-Orthodox male cadets walked out of a separate ceremony that featured singing by female soldiers because, the men claimed, hearing women’s voices would produce “impure” thoughts.

      Those men were absolutely correct--I always have impure thoughts to women singing!

  • Even Foxman warns Israel's rightwing tilt will kill the brand
    • Nia problema--we'll just call in the ACLU and they'll take care of everything for us...

    • I'm surprised by the relatively few comments on Foxman's piece on these boards. The fact that he has made his highly critical views on recent Israeli policies public on the most widely read American internet blog means that he is frightened--very frightened!
      So, this is not the time to be wringing our hands and saying the I-P situation is hopeless--I think the exact opposite is the case, now.

    • Seafoid wrote:

      "And it will rule over the Arabs forever

      Until the bond market turns on it"

      Would you be interested in presenting your schtick on the Jimmy Fallon show New Years' Eve?

  • Israeli station airs footage of soldiers attacking handcuffed, blindfolded Palestinian
  • Could Ron Paul's Iowa surge finally open up political debate on Israel and Iran attack?
    • I don't think Ron Paul is going to be the next president, but he can open up the dialogue about the Lobby and the MSM will have to (against their wishes) cover it!

  • Israeli gov't warns Israelis in U.S. not to marry Americans but come home
  • JJ Goldberg is uncomfortable with 'astoundingly hostile' new 'New York Times'
    • Yeah, let's have a bit more evidence before starting the party. I would like to see the Times permit online reader feedback to critical-of-Israel articles.

  • Praise the 'NYT' for exposing an American Jewish family's argument over Israel/Palestine
  • I hold my breath, Haaretz
    • Mondoweiss folks,

      Take a look at Burston's article linked above by Paul Mutter. It is quite powerful, and the positive comments by readers hugely outnumber the negatives.

  • Israeli newspaper owner says Obama can't stop settlers' 'apartheid regime' because of 'Jewish lobby'
    • Wow, MRW!

      I shall never accuse you of not being widely read... :)

    • American,

      I'm not that knowledgeable about Christians, let alone Christian Zionists, but here goes anyway. First, agree that C-Zs are politically uninformed. Second, may C. Fundamentalists (including those who are C-Zs) have a black/white or for vs. against us mentality. These folks are xenophobic, fearful of non-Christians (especially ones whose members do suicide bombings), and it is very easy for them to view Israel as a dam that helps restrain Arabs, Muslims, "foreign unbelievers" from overrunning and slaughtering us.

      (I know this because I had a couple of high school friends back in the 50's whose mothers were C. Fundamentalists and every chance they got, they warned me of the Godless communists that had infiltrated every level of our government and were just waiting for their chance to destroy us.)

      Christian Zionist--I think most Christian fundamentalists would fall into this category. For these people, the world is too complex and nuanced to be grasped by their worldview. A simpler all good/all bad viewpoint is preferable and is effective for them in dealing with modern angst.

      I also think that C-Zs strongly perceive Israel as "David" and its enemies as "Goliath," and that they themselves subsconsciously identify with courageous "Little David" preparing to slay whichever of the Goliaths it feels threatened by. Thus, the brave Israelis defending their "security" and "right to exist" resonates deeply with C-Zs. (I think to some extent we all can identify with David, but some of us know who "David" actually is in the current conflict...)

  • Salon: Israel pushes US warmongering via neocon dog-tail-waggers
    • Salon: Israel pushes US warmongering via neocon dog-tail-waggers
      by annie on November 25, 2011 148

      Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and neonconservative William Kristol (Credit: Reuters/Gage Skidmore)

      Salon's got a doozey up. Gary Kamiya gets his rant on in his provocatively titled article 'The boys who cry “Holocaust”'. Mincing no words, he comes right out swinging characterizing Israel's influence on the US as maintaining a stranglehold over our Mideast policy and claiming the neocons are ignorant, Islamophobic, discredited ideologues (we knew that). And it just builds from there. Check it out and by all means read the entire link for a comprehensive round up of past and present neocon war-mongering 101. From Bolton to Kristol to Goldberg including Bibi himself, 'The boys who cry “Holocaust”' delivers, and here's just the tip of the iceberg:

      Yet these incompetent militarists are still taken seriously. And the reason is simple: They purport to be supporters of Israel. In American politics, you can get away with even the most cracked war-mongering as long as you claim to be “pro-Israel.” And the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card for anything having to do with Israel is the Holocaust.

      To listen to the neocons and hawks, you’d think Hitler was about to send the tanks over the Polish border..........

      The Holocaust mind-set has led Israel into self-destructive policies. And its promiscuous invocation has helped ensure that Israel maintains a stranglehold over America’s Mideast policy. That stranglehold has always been harmful to America, but it is now actually dangerous.

      Kamiya's on a roll. On US positioning if and when Israel attacks Iran:

      In other words, it is quite likely that the most powerful nation in the world will simply stand impotently by while a tiny client state threatens to do something that it knows is not just antithetical to its interests, but possibly ruinous to them. The tail could be about to wag the dog right off a cliff.

      Is it my imagination or is our way of thinking gradually permeating the mainstream?

      (Hat tip MW commenter American)

      About annie
      i am a mother, a human rights activist and a ceramic artist. i live in the SF bay area.
      View all posts by annie →
      Posted in Iran, Israel Lobby, Israel/Palestine, Neocons
      ← Ed Rendell keynotes fundraiser for Israeli armyOn Shabbos the rabbi stood outside neighbor’s house shouting F-you at his ‘Free Palestine’ bumper sticker →
      { 148 comments... read them below or add one }
      Potsherd2 says:
      November 25, 2011 at 9:51 am
      It may be penetrating the mainstream, but it has yet to penetrate Congress.

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      CloakAndDagger says:
      November 25, 2011 at 5:53 pm
      And there lies the greatest danger that this world has ever seen. If not for our treasonous congress, by now we would have thwarted Israel’s terror on the world. Instead, we can only look on as the destruction of the world becomes more complete each day.

      Funny thing is that with all our condemnation of Israel’s actions, we grossly underestimate what they are capable of, all with the support of our foreign congress. I predict that a false-flag attack on US soil is imminent, far more devastating than 9/11, this time accompanied by a nuclear explosion on the west coast – perhaps the Bay Area (sorry Annie, you and I are both toast).

      link to veteranstoday.com

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      annie says:
      November 25, 2011 at 10:17 pm
      the bay area? some of the most brilliant minds are here, including jewish minds. that would be national suicide on all fronts. don’t f w/us or there will be wrath. we’re not new orleans or nyc. take down SF and america goes under. go west young man, go west..and they did (courageous women too, obviously). we’re not the canary in the coal mine, we’re the enchilada. we’re the rock, the most forward progressive place in the nation and without us america will go under, sink like a stone, hook line and sinker, call it what you will. mark my word. and china will rage. who will prop up that lil apartheid criminal state then? no, i do not believe a false flag nuke attack will take out the bay area. people are just not that stupid.

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      CloakAndDagger says:
      November 26, 2011 at 2:08 am
      Some of the best minds are also in New York, including jewish minds (albeit not the technical minds of Silicon Valley or the social conscience and culture of San Francisco city), but that didn’t stop them.

      Yes, I too am proud of the calibre of people in the Bay Area, and I would never move anywhere else. We are known for being the trouble makers for the PTB for much of our history, and a bane for Israel.

      All the more reason to target us.

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      richb says:
      November 27, 2011 at 11:59 am
      No kidding. See this morning’s front page of the NY Times for all the congressional supporters of the terrorist cult, the MEK.

      link to nytimes.com

      The extraordinary lobbying effort to reverse the terrorist designation of the group, the Mujahedeen Khalq, or People’s Mujahedeen, has won the support of two former C.I.A. directors, R. James Woolsey and Porter J. Goss; a former F.B.I. director, Louis J. Freeh; a former attorney general, Michael B. Mukasey; President George W. Bush’s first homeland security chief, Tom Ridge; President Obama’s first national security adviser, Gen. James L. Jones; big-name Republicans like the former New York mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani and Democrats like the former Vermont governor Howard Dean; and even the former top counterterrorism official of the State Department, Dell L. Dailey, who argued unsuccessfully for ending the terrorist label while in office.

      This is not the first time this was reported in the NYT:

      link to nytimes.com

      A FEW weeks ago I received an e-mail from an acquaintance with the subject line: Have you seen the video everyone is talking about?

      I clicked play, and there was Howard Dean, on March 19 in Berlin, at his most impassioned, extolling the virtues of a woman named Maryam Rajavi and insisting that America should recognize her as the president of Iran.

      Ms. Rajavi and her husband, Massoud, are the leaders of a militant Iranian opposition group called the Mujahedeen Khalq, or Warriors of God. The group’s forces have been based for the last 25 years in Iraq, where I visited them shortly after the fall of Saddam Hussein in April 2003.

      Mr. Dean’s speech stunned me. But then came Rudolph W. Giuliani saying virtually the same thing. At a conference in Paris last December, an emotional Mr. Giuliani told Ms. Rajavi, “These are the most important yearnings of the human soul that you support, and for your organization to be described as a terrorist organization is just simply a disgrace.” I thought I was watching The Onion News Network. Did Mr. Giuliani know whom he was talking about?

      Former DNC head, Howard Dean, even went so far as to offer an Op Ed with Tom Ridge on fox news.com!

      link to foxnews.com

      Dean’s argument was that we should support the MEK because of the plot against the Saudi ambassador even though the co-conspirator is alleged by Iran to be a part of the MEK!

      link to nytimes.com

      Since the Republicans and Democrats disagree on everything including such minor things as JOBS all this unanimity means just one thing, Israel’s involved. A quick Google search confirmed my suspicions.

      The Guardian reported that a recent “accident” in Iran was a covert Israeli operation in conjunction with the MEK:

      link to guardian.co.uk

      A series of news reports linking Israel’s intelligence agency the Mossad to a blast at a military facility in Iran, in which 17 people were killed and a further 15 wounded, has gained widespread coverage in the Israeli media on Monday.

      While Iranian officials insist the explosion at the Bid Ganeh base was accidental, caused by the movement of ammunition, claims from anonymous western and Israeli officials that Saturday’s blast was a covert Israeli operation have gained momentum.

      Leading Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot picked up a post by US blogger Richard Silverstein claiming the Mossad had teamed up with Iranian militant group Mujahideen e-Khalq (MEK) to execute the alleged attack. MEK denies involvement in the attack.

      The MEK was also used to be a front for the Israelis to leak friendly info about the Iranian nuclear program without Israeli fingerprints. Note this cheerleading by Mrs. Rajavi:

      link to ncr-iran.org

      “It is delightful that the agency did not give in to pressure from some member states that wanted to continue to cover up the clerical regime’s nuclear projects, and exposed part of the military aspects of the regime’s nuclear drive. But the bulk of the information contained in the agency’s report, had been exposed by the Iranian resistance since many years ago and made available to the IAEA who could have been published years ago”, she added.

      Was the Iranian resistance finding out about the Iranian nuclear program or is this just a repeat concerning the so-called Iraqi resistance and Saddam’s W.M.D.s. Note this March 2006 New Yorker piece showing it’s the latter:
      link to newyorker.com

      An Iranian-American political activist told me, however, that the N.C.R.I.’s [MEK's] intelligence had actually come from Israel. This person said that Israel had earlier offered it to a monarchist group, but that that group’s leaders had decided that “outing” the regime’s nuclear program would be viewed negatively by Iranians, so they declined the offer. Shahriar Ahy, Reza Pahlavi’s [the former Shah's son] adviser, confirmed that account up to a point. “That information came not from the M.E.K but from a friendly government, and it had come to more than one opposition group, not only the mujahideen,” he said. When I asked him if the “friendly government” was Israel, he smiled. “The friendly government did not want to be the source of it, publicly, If the friendly government gives it to the U.S. publicly, then it would be received differently. Better to come from an opposition group.” Israel is said to have had a relationship with the M.E.K. at least since the late nineties, and to have supplied a satellite signal for N.C.R.I. broadcasts from Paris into Iran. When I asked an Israeli diplomat about Israel’s relationship with the M.E.K., he said, “The M.E.K is useful,” but declined to elaborate.

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      seanmcbride says:
      November 27, 2011 at 1:22 pm
      How did Howard Dean end up in the same camp with neoconservatives and Republicans like James Woolsey, Rudy Giuliani and Michael Mukasey? Is the Democratic Party now as much under the thumb of the neocons as the Republican Party? (In fact, the neocons have been gloating over their control of Barack Obama for several years now.)

      Has the Israel lobby played the lead role in encouraging Dean to support the MEK? The safe bet is that it did. But it would be interesting to uncover the particular facts about this situation.

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      Chaos4700 says:
      November 27, 2011 at 1:44 pm
      Howard Dean went soft. He used to be far too reformist and uncompromising, so the party elite drove a bus over him. (See also: the “Dean Scream”) He was left with a choice: remain true to the stances he maintained, and become an outcast in American politics; or compromise, jettison some of his standards in order to not be ejected completely from the Party.

      Guess which route he chose. It’s definitely something of a beaten path at this point.

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      American says:
      November 27, 2011 at 2:03 pm
      “How did Howard Dean end up in the same camp with neoconservatives”

      Should be obvious by now, actually long ago, that Dean will do anything to stay involved with politics, parrot any line he is fed by the political power structures. He’s nothing, just another mouthpiece and poodle.

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      seanmcbride says:
      November 27, 2011 at 2:35 pm
      Did Howard Dean get on the wrong side of the Israel lobby, and did the Lobby punish him for his transgression? I don’t have time at the moment to research this question, but I vaguely recall that this might be the case.

      I think it’s safe to say that both the Republican and Democratic Parties are now AIPAC/neocon ops — two submissive and obedient arms of the same foreign lobby. This is why there has been little pushback by Democrats against numerous extreme statements made by Republican presidential candidates on US Mideast policy. Democrats don’t dare to open their mouths on the subject for fear of being severely punished — of being “Deaned.”

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      lysias says:
      November 27, 2011 at 2:43 pm
      Very shortly after Dean indicated he was open to the idea of breaking up the big media conglomerates, the mainstream media went after him for that scream.

      Very soon after Gary Hart indicated he was open to the idea of a new investigation of the JFK assassination, the mainstream media went after him for the Donna Rice business.

      Very soon after Mike Gravel indicated, in a PBS News Hour interview, that he blamed the Israel lobby for the drumbeat for war with Iran, he was dropped from the Democratic presidential debates, and thereafter his campaign was ignored by the mainstream media.

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      annie says:
      November 27, 2011 at 3:14 pm
      Howard Dean, on March 19 in Berlin, at his most impassioned, extolling the virtues of a woman named Maryam Rajavi and insisting that America should recognize her as the president of Iran.

      Ms. Rajavi and her husband, Massoud, are the leaders of a militant Iranian opposition group called the Mujahedeen Khalq, or Warriors of God.

      o spare us pllleeease. this is perverse. i was just reading about the Warriors of God yesterday. i’ll go see if i can dig it up.

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      annie says:
      November 27, 2011 at 3:33 pm
      couldn’t find it just yet but ran into this great escobar article keith linked to down thread
      link to dissidentvoice.org

      As Tehran sees it, what’s really going on regarding Syria is a “humanitarian” cover for a complex anti-Shi’ite and anti-Iran operation.

      The road map is already clear. A fractious, unrepresentative Syrian National Council — Libya-style — is already in place. Same for a heavily armed Sunni “insurgency” crisscrossing the borders in Lebanon and Turkey. Sanctions are already essentially hurting the Syrian middle class. A relentless, international campaign of vilification of the Assad regime has been deployed. And psy ops abound, with the aim of seducing sections of the Syrian army to defect (it’s not working).

      A report1 by a Qatar-based researcher for the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) even comes close to admitting that the self-described “Free Syria Army” is basically a bunch of hardcore Islamists, plus a few genuine army defectors, but mostly radicalized Muslim Brotherhood bought, paid for and weaponized by the US, Israel, the Gulf monarchies and Turkey. There’s nothing “pro-democracy” about this lot – as incessantly sold by Western corporate and Saudi-owned media.

      As for the National Council, based in Washington and London and sprinkled with the usual dodgy exiles, its program calls for governing Syria alongside the same military that has been — a la the Egyptian military junta — shooting civilian protesters. Makes one think that the only sensible solution would be for the people in Syria to topple the police state Assad regime, while being vehemently against the dodgy Syrian National Council.

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      justicewillprevail says:
      November 25, 2011 at 9:58 am
      No, it’s not your imagination. The blatant railroading by the zealots has become insufferable, not to mention dangerous. We’ve seen it all before re Iraq, and there are enough people who will refuse to observe the blanket ban on criticising Israel or its insane ideology. The catastrophic direction Israel is forcing on the US through its agents’ muzzling bills in Congress has become so unapologetic, so Dr Strangelove, that a groundswell is, quite understandably, building. Just as the US gets out of Iraq having spent trillions for no discernible benefit, the warmongers are foaming at the mouth to repeat the whole thing on a scale which could exceed Iraq enormously. There will be no good outcome, unless you count more terrorism, death and destruction as such, which the neocons do, for them it ‘proves’ they were right. There is a feeling that the lobby, an elite of media commentators and craven representatives are completely out of control, do not represent US citizens, and have the potential to create mayhem for years to come, not to mention derailing the economy even further. The country has been hijacked by ideologues, very well-off people who will not be anywhere near the danger they propose to put everybody else in. There is not even credible evidence regarding Iran’s nuclear programme, yet we are subject to hysterical fearmongering. Enough is enough, time to call them on it, have some open and frank debate for once, and junk this pathetic charade that Israel must be indulged, whatever the cost, and must never, ever by criticised or called to account. Time for the old men with their war lust to leave the stage. And take your anti-human, demagogic BS with you.

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      annie says:
      November 25, 2011 at 12:33 pm
      The catastrophic direction Israel is forcing on the US through its agents’ muzzling bills in Congress has become so unapologetic, so Dr Strangelove, that a groundswell is, quite understandably, building.

      we’re going to have to keep exposing this because eventually it will become so clear what’s going on congress will have to account for their groveling in the face of looming danger from these ideologues.

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      Whizdom says:
      November 25, 2011 at 10:02 am
      link to forward.com

      The Holocaust metaphor, 2011 is the new 1939

      From the Forward on the ZOA annual awards dinner. Not a democrat in sight.

      Beck, Bachman, and Ros-Lehtinen

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      lobewyper says:
      November 25, 2011 at 10:10 am
      Iran’s leaders may lack “emotional intelligence” judging by the depreciating remarks they have uttered about Israel, but as Steve Walt and many others have pointed out, there is not a shred of evidence that they are suicidal. Israel has more than enough warheads and the means to deliver them to ensure an Iranian attack would trigger retaliation that would lay waste to their entire country. This obvious point seems to keep being overlooked by the war drums folks both here and in Israel. Why??? (Thanks, Annie!)

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      annie says:
      November 25, 2011 at 12:38 pm
      appreciated lobewyper but the hat tip goes to american who linked to this article in one of these threads, i just grabbed and pasted for the most part.

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      lobewyper says:
      November 25, 2011 at 1:11 pm
      OK, american, I tip my hat to you!

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      lobewyper says:
      November 25, 2011 at 12:59 pm
      Sorry, but didn’t realize the answer to my question was implicit in the Salon article:

      “What a nuclear Iran really threatens, as several top Israeli officials have admitted, is Israeli hegemony in the region. The Arab Spring and the rise of Turkey have already begun to erode that hegemony, and Iran’s inevitable acquisition of the ability to build a bomb will further erode it. Israel cannot fight this trend. The days when it could impose its will by bullying are over. It must learn to live with its neighbors.”

      (The article also makes the point that an Iranian attack would lead to massive nuclear retaliation.)

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      annie says:
      November 25, 2011 at 1:07 pm
      yeah, it really is a very comprehensive article. speaking of consequences i just read an interesting article from india link to timesofindia.indiatimes.com

      World will accept Nuclear Iran, says Israeli economist

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      lobewyper says:
      November 25, 2011 at 1:21 pm
      It will have to accept it, if it comes to that. Moreover, If Israel preemptively attacks Iran, the resultant effects on world-wide economies (see article linked by Annie) would rapidly lead to the worst outbreak of anti-Semitism since the Holocaust, IMHO.

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      lobewyper says:
      November 25, 2011 at 1:59 pm
      Because of the potential dangers of such an outbreak, Israel will NEVER launch a pre-emptive strike against Iran by herself. However, she is certainly going to continue trying to get the United States to do it for (and perhaps, with) her!

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      MRW says:
      November 25, 2011 at 2:36 pm
      Lobewyper,

      You’re right about the global antisemitism. It will be chilling in its generational reach, and it will last for the rest of this century too for the simple reason that it will spawn books and monographs that will attempt to ask whether Hitler was right. The European laws against mentioning the holocaust will be reversed, and we will be flooded with translations of documents long hidden.

      But to the more immediate point, and one not mentioned in the Salon article, is that Russia’s military satellites are poised over the Middle East. The instant an Israeli plane takes off for Iran, the Russians will be on the phone to Iran. The entire western flank of the Iranian mountain range that traverses the NW-SE diagonal of Iran and is 1/3 of the way into Iran (what has kept that country safe for five millennia) is studded with embedded anti-aircraft missile sites. Scott Ritter described this in a talk with Seymour Hersh five years ago. He said flying into Iran from the west is a suicide mission for any country that attempts it. Furthermore, Iran has the Russian bombs that can obliterate any aircraft carrier in the Straits of Hormuz.

      The wild card is how Russia would react.

      Former head of Mossad Meir Dagan is Russian, and he is known to despise the USA. He does not like Americans of any stripe; he does not care if you are Jewish. His characterization of the stupidity of bombing Iran has zero relationship to the USA and everything to do with Israel. He considers both Netanyahu and Barak to be reckless stewards, which he said bluntly in a Haaretz article earlier this year; he said that he, General Ashkenazi, and the head of Shin Bet were always able to do an end-run around Netanyahu to keep him in line. Let’s hope the Israelis have the smarts to listen to him.

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      American says:
      November 25, 2011 at 2:38 pm
      “she is certainly going to continue trying to get the United States to do it for her:

      What worries me lobe, is I believe Netanyahu is so confident of the lobby’s control of the US that he thinks the US would rush in to back up Israel the minute it attacked Iran regardless that the US asked them not to do that.
      And with our congress and sorry state of politics he may be right

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      American says:
      November 25, 2011 at 2:46 pm
      “The wild card is how Russia would react”

      Agree MRW, what I’ve been saying also.
      I also wonder what Russia knows that Israel and the US don’t even know, their KGB wrote the book on covert intelligence and still owns it by all accounts.

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      American says:
      November 25, 2011 at 3:43 pm
      “would rapidly lead to the worst outbreak of anti-Semitism since the Holocaust, IMHO.”

      Sometimes I think it’s only my own lying eyes that keep me from questioning my own sanity.
      Cause how can anyone explain this:…?

      Jews sacred to death of being despised into another holocaust.
      BUT….
      Jews (some) demand release of Pollard, worse traitor in US modern history, because he’s Jewish and did it for Israel.
      Jews (some) demand US get into war with Iran for Jewish state.
      Jews (some) always quoted in msm on how their 1st US political concern is Israel.
      Jewish congressional cohorts rush to Israel to promise them US money no matter how Americans are suffering.
      Jewish lobby, with no shame, US taxpayer money sucking machine for Israel.
      Jews (some) applaud Netanyahu for humilating US president.
      Jews (some) constantly appearing in msm threatening US politicians if tbey don’t supprt Israel.
      All in public with no attempt to hide it.

      Yep, like being scared to death of water and jumping in it and splashing around as hard as they can every chance they get. I don’t believe for a second they are really afraid of another holocaust.

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      teta mother me says:
      November 25, 2011 at 7:09 pm
      I watched the video of the Egyptian activists — getting hurt, killed; and they are the age of my children.
      I cried. I couldn’t stop crying.
      Pray god my children do not have to put their young and promising lives on the line to save their country, the United States, that has gone mad.k
      But whether bloodletting does or does not come to our children’s generation, their live are fundamentally impacted by the warmongers. The US has become a pariah state, doing things alien to its founding charter.
      That is tragic.
      But you really don’t want to be in my line of sight if my children are harmed.
      I have no concept of how Palestinian and Iraqi and Afghani and Iranian women do it — watch their children get killed, shredded, and not rip the face off the next person they see who might have caused that death. I don’t think I would be able to restrain myself.

      Here’s another thing, American — you very politically correctly inserted (some) in front of every reference to Jews acting badly, lest you be accused of generalizing the behavior of some to the entirety.
      Well done.
      Perhaps you could send the message to Mark Kirk, Brad Sherman, and the entire Israeli government — Kirk and Sherman are all for punishing the ENTIRE Iranian public until they knuckle under. That’s collective punishment.
      And the Israeli government and its acolytes in the US are all for punishing all Palestinians AS WELL AS the entire Iranian public — more collective punishment.

      So good for you, you don’t cast ALL Jews in the same collective.

      But to paraphrase Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA), “Critics [of sanctions generalizing critiques to ALL Jews] argued that these measures will hurt the Iranian JEWISH people. Quite frankly, we need to do just that.”

      ALL JEWS have got to take this fight to the fellow Jews (oh, and J Street — no, it is not Obama’s problem to solve, it is YOUR problem to solve). If they don’t, someone else will.

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      lobewyper says:
      November 25, 2011 at 8:19 pm
      American, whether the US would back an Israeli strike is the question. I don’t think there is going to be a strike, by anyone. Even with US backing/or participation, the perception is still going to be that a strike was Israel’s idea, and there is still going to be serious anti-Semitic backlash, because it is well known that Israel owns the US government from the president on down.

      For the US to back Israel against Iran would lead to the alienation of too many people, cause too much havoc in the world economy, and the American people are sick of war.

      The US-Israeli grand strategy may be something like this: Stir up as much discussion of a proposed strike against Iran as possible, and keep the sheeple focused on it. In the meantime, the Israelis will use this focus to distract attention from increasingly aggressive land theft in the West Bank. Later, when war is “averted” at the last minute, Obama can take the credit for bringing the Israeli government back to its “senses.”

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      American says:
      November 26, 2011 at 12:25 am
      Here’s something of interest for you Lobe…from Jim Lobe’s site:

      “Arshin Adib-Moghaddam’s latest piece in the Guardian is a timely read. Unlike some of the histrionics behind contemporary Iran analysis, Adib-Moghaddam actually uses facts and numbers – which unfortunately is a novel concept to the larger Iran debate. Money Quote:

      “‘But that narrative [Iran’s economic crisis] does not correspond to the facts. The World Bank set the economic growth of Iran at 3.0% in 2010, and the IMF says nominal GDP grew from $330.5bn in 2009 to $360bn in 2010. The IMF recently wrapped up a visit to Iran and commended the government for early successes with the subsidy reform programme and the advances in the financial sector, which is boosted by a buoyant stock market. The argument that Iran is economically isolated does not hold either. According to the most recent UNCTAD report, foreign direct investment to the country has increased exponentially from $1.6bn in 2008 to $3.6bn in 2010. This does not mean that there are no serious economic problems in the country; there are many and they range from corruption to structural inefficiency. It means that there is another side to the Iran story that is subdued for ideological reasons. Ultimately, the US and to a lesser extent the European Union are disqualifying themselves from the Iranian market during a period of intense economic calamity. China and Russia say “thank you”.

      Hummmm…how long will Israel stand for Iran not going down on sanctions?

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      American says:
      November 26, 2011 at 2:12 am
      “Here’s another thing, American — you very politically correctly inserted (some) in front of every reference to Jews acting badly, lest you be accused of generalizing..”

      Thanks teta but I am famously Politically Incorrect as everyone here knows.
      I use some because’ some’ is accurate and a uncomplicated word.
      And I have browbeat my politicians on the I/P and Israel issues so often it’s a wonder I’m not on the no-fly list.
      It will change eventually, can’t go on this way I don’t think. Something is bound to happen.

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      Taxi says:
      November 26, 2011 at 6:32 am
      Guys guys guys let’s be clear on definitions here:
      Antisemitism: Hostility towards or prejudice against INNOCENT jews.

      A reactive hostility towards CRIMINAL jews AIN’T ANTISEMITISM!

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      lobewyper says:
      November 26, 2011 at 9:02 am
      Thanks, American. Great find! Another quote from Arshin:

      “If the analysis of a country is wrong the policy prescriptions are bound to be wrong too. Afghanistan and Iraq are very good examples of that relationship between the absence of sound knowledge on a country and strategic failure.”

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      annie says:
      November 26, 2011 at 11:18 am
      american, Jews (some)…. Jews (some)…. Jews (some)….

      this reminds me of the big pedophilia sex scandal being kept somewhat under wraps in brooklyn/borough park. listen to the radio program. my take on it is you’ve got a few powerful people in the community dictating, over and above common sense and the law, how the jewish community should deal with sex abuse for the purpose of not vilifying the community. all at the expense of their own children.

      but, as the radio show makes clear from the people who call in as does groups like survivors for justice the people who are fighting very hard to end this abuse and have perpetrators be held accountable..who are they? they are jews. it’s the community all around outside the jewish community, the rest of us, who treat this scandal differently..the same way israel is being treated differently. why? why no penn state screaming headlines? that’s not just the fault of jews, it’s the fault of all of us.

      if we get dragged into another war with iran it would be drastically unfair to blame the jewish community when for the most part it is the extremists within the community dictating the meme. and it’s not a meme followed solely by the jewish community as it pertains to them, it is all of us allowing a separate standard as it pertains to them. so why is that? we (americans who are not jewish) are just as much to blame for not speaking out against extremism as those within the community. but everyone is for the most part silent about it. well, not silent about iran (or support for israel) and not silent about pedophilia but for the most part silent about whose driving this push to war with iran as well as silent about whose pushing this silence on reporting this sex scandal as it pertains to them. and the results are the same on both issues for members of the jewish communities, they become outcasts. but we are as much to blame for allowing extremists to dictate an exceptional position and attitude for one community for fear of being accused of villifying the jewish community. it’s got to stop. and if there is a wave of anti semitism that sweeps the country i will fight it with all my might because we are as much to blame.

      we have to shout these nutjobs down, not mimic the responses of those who succumb to this mindset because it makes us as brainwashed as their followers.

      teta mother me,
      ALL JEWS have got to take this fight to the fellow Jews

      all of us. as americans of conscience we have speak in a load unified voice. we cannot dump this problem solely on the laps of other jews to stand up to their extremists. we don’t do that to our other minority groups. we don’t call on the hispanic community to fix the immigration problem and wash our hands of it. we’re all effected by the impact so it becomes all of us responsible to fight back.

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      Chaos4700 says:
      November 26, 2011 at 12:03 pm
      Annie that’s hopelessly naive. There are a lot of non-Jews who can’t speak out so openly because the Zionist Inquisition will get us labeled as “anti-Semites” and get us blacklisted in our careers. There’s a reason I’m so furtive about who I am, exactly where in the Midwest I live and where I work. I’d like to think my boss’s boss is fair, but I can’t afford to take the risk.

      Some of us labor under a very real risk of losing our jobs — and not just our jobs, but possibly our careers — by speaking out for Palestinian human rights. That doesn’t stop me from doing so but I’m very careful. And that means I can’t afford to speak out about the Jewish community. The risk is too high.

      The Jewish community, in the US and elsewhere, has built a massive fortress society around itself and this is the consequence. People are afraid of Jews. (Congrats, eee, you’ve gotten exactly what you wanted there.) As far as I’m concerned, the fight you’re describing is totally internal to the Jewish community and no one else can afford to fight it.

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      seanmcbride says:
      November 26, 2011 at 12:30 pm
      annie,

      To what extent would you attribute blame for the crimes of Nazism on “the German community” of Germany and around the world at the time?

      If the organized Jewish establishment succeeds in promoting a war against Iran that leads to a catastrophic outcome for Americans and much of the world, how much responsibility should it be forced to assume for its actions?

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      lobewyper says:
      November 26, 2011 at 12:41 pm
      The Israelis IMHO are bluffing. They get ex-heads of the Mossad to say publicly that an Iran attack would be catastrophic for Israel, yet the Israeli leadership “appear” to be unmoved by such arguments. Result: so long as they remain in power, others will believe that they just might do it–even alone. (I realize I have just accused former Mossad leaders of complicity in helping deliberately to mislead not only their countrymen but all the rest of us! Hope Israeli drones can’t reach the Midwest…).

      This “We’ll go it alone if we have to” is simply too risky. Not only is the risk of losing US aid great (due to $10 gas, etc.), but they also risk huge losses of financial support from Diasporan Jews. My advice, Bibi: “Cut the best deal you can as fast as you can.” Time is definitely running out!

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      seanmcbride says:
      November 26, 2011 at 12:42 pm
      I am predicting that there is a high probability that Zionism is going to lead to the worst outbreak of anti-Semitism in world history, all around the world all at once, and especially in the United States. And it should be obvious by now that quite a few Zionists are banking on this outcome and looking forward to it. They are dangerously insane.

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      seanmcbride says:
      November 26, 2011 at 12:44 pm
      True or false: mystical rhetoric about the sacredness of Jewish peoplehood and nationhood is precisely like mystical rhetoric about the sacredness of Aryan peoplehood and nationhood employed by Nazis and white nationalists. This kind of messianic rhetoric is often used by leading members of the contemporary Jewish and Zionist establishment.

      Who should be held responsible for legitimizing, enabling and mainstreaming these attitudes and ideas? The community as a whole?

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      seanmcbride says:
      November 26, 2011 at 12:50 pm
      What could be a more dangerous game than for any small ethnic group in a complex multicultural society to try to bully and intimidate all ethnic outsiders and the society as a whole into absolute submission through threats and fear? There is no conceivable way that these kinds of methods can succeed in the long run. Predictably they will provoke a powerful backlash down the line.

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      lobewyper says:
      November 26, 2011 at 12:59 pm
      Sean,

      I’m not so sure Zionism (in the absence of an attack upon Iran) will lead to an anti-Semitic outbreak. Why? Because there won’t be an attack on Iran which at best would probably set back an Iranian nuclear program a few years at best. Then (when the anti-Semitic wave is in full swing due to the initial attack), they will have to attack again, increasing anti-Semitism still further. Way too risky and the Israelis aren’t that stupid. If they ARE that stupid, they will richly deserve their subsequent fate!

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      seanmcbride says:
      November 26, 2011 at 1:23 pm
      lobewyper,

      My prediction does not rely on a disastrous attack on Iran for its fulfillment. What I am noticing is the convergence of several trends: 1. the increasing radicalization of Zionism and Zionists in general (especially with the growing importance of messianic religious Zionism and Zionists, both Jewish and Christian). 2. the steady escalation of personal attacks by pro-Israel activists on influential Americans and Europeans, which are no doubt arousing the wrath of those who have been attacked. 3. the likely catastrophic economic consequences for Americans and Europeans of the entire Global War on Terror and Clash of Civilizations propaganda campaign (and con game), which will inevitably be blamed on the neoconservative and Christian Zionist wings of the Israel lobby (which have loudly presented themselves to the world as authoritative representatives of “the Jews” — all Jews).

      But the most important factor of all: many Zionists seem to be turned on by apocalyptic biblical scenarios which pit Israel against “the nations.” It’s a powerful drug for them, one which they cannot resist. I am predicting that they actualize their delusional beliefs in the real world, with easily foreseeable results.

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      annie says:
      November 26, 2011 at 1:32 pm
      There are a lot of non-Jews who can’t speak out so openly because the Zionist Inquisition will get us labeled as “anti-Semites” and get us blacklisted in our careers.

      no that is not true, there are a lot of non-Jews who won’t speak out for those reasons, not ‘can’t’.

      the fight you’re describing is totally internal to the Jewish community and no one else can afford to fight it.

      that’s crazy. and if those jews working internally can’t manage to fight it then who pays the price? don’t you think that is an awfully big load to put on the shoulders some jews? you don’t think they risk being blacklisted? we have to stand up just like Kamiya has with this article. it’s an american problem, not just a jewish problem. there are hundreds of millions of us and stupid to think we should all be in fear of speaking out. that’s what allows this festering ‘special relationship’ to grow.

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      Chaos4700 says:
      November 26, 2011 at 1:49 pm
      You might be fine with throwing away everything you worked hard for and put yourself in debt for, so that you didn’t have to work jobs that involved peddling crappy Chinese imports, selling worthless insurance over the phone or exposing yourself to industrial carcinogens every day for the rest of your life, but I’m not.

      And it’s stupid. No amount of influence will change the Jewish community from the outside. Jewish community, Jewish problem. All of us have our own problems and they just aren’t victims in this case. I’ll stick to sticking my neck out for African Americans and Hispanics and Muslims and people who actually need my help, thanks, annie. The Jewish community ain’t exactly hurting for resources to solve its own problems.

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      annie says:
      November 26, 2011 at 1:50 pm
      Who should be held responsible for legitimizing, enabling and mainstreaming these attitudes and ideas? The community as a whole?

      i think you are missing my point. we have a big problem that requires a big voice of rejection. we all need to take responsibility to FIX the problem. that is what i meant by ‘all of us’. not ‘ALL JEWS have got to take this fight to the fellow Jews’ but all of us need to confront the neocons and their supporters and tell them they can no longer go on dictating american foreign policy, we want them our, we voted them out and they are still here. then we need to loudly communicate to places like the NYT and ask them ‘why are you shoving these discredited warmongering freakjobs down our throat again?’

      we can’t just sit back in silence for fear of being called anti semitic and rely on the jewsih community to fix itself internally. THAT is a recipe for disaster. that is exactly what the extremists WANT you to do, ‘leave israel alone’. ‘let the jewish community decide our policies for israel’ NO THANK YOU.

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      annie says:
      November 26, 2011 at 1:53 pm
      then what are you here for chaos? why aren’t you just leaving it to the jewish community?

      what i’m hearing you saying is we should all just back out, the other 98% of us, and leave the doing and thinking to the other jews. how helpful/not.

      nothing like throwing our allies in the jewish community under a bus.

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      Chaos4700 says:
      November 26, 2011 at 1:58 pm
      “‘let the jewish community decide our policies for israel” is easy to solve. Take the money out of American politics. It doesn’t require us meddling in the affairs of the Jewish community.

      Annie, nobody has any responsibility to “save” the Jewish community, except Jews. For the rest of us, we have the greater community to worry about. Even if the American Jewish community was saintly and guiltless they still shouldn’t have absolute control over US foreign policy like they do now.

      That’s our problem, right now. Everything else is secondary. I couldn’t care less about whether the Jewish community cleaves itself in twain when right now, my nephew is growing up facing being press-ganged into a war with Iran.

      The consequences for non-Jews confronting what you’re talking about are FAR far greater than Jews, annie. That’s just a fact. It’s a waste of resources. And if you hadn’t noticed, Mondoweiss isn’t exclusively Jewish in character. Not by a long shot.

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      annie says:
      November 26, 2011 at 1:58 pm
      What could be a more dangerous game than for any small ethnic group in a complex multicultural society to try to bully and intimidate all ethnic outsiders and the society as a whole into absolute submission through threats and fear?

      it is only part of a small ethnic group doing that. it’s completely racist to blame an entire ethnic group for the actions of some. i can’t believe we are even having this conversation.

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      Chaos4700 says:
      November 26, 2011 at 2:04 pm
      The small part you are talking about are the LEADERS of said ethnic group, annie. “Just following orders” is never a valid defense, of anything.

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      lobewyper says:
      November 26, 2011 at 2:19 pm
      Sean,

      My take: Unless “their delusional beliefs in the real world” lead to an attack upon Iran, I don’t think I agree with you (although I’m hardly an expert on foreign policy!). Re: your point # 2–I think you’re overestimating the effects of this. Re: #3, it won’t be all that easy to pin the War on Terror on the (mostly Jewish) neocons. John Mearsheimer said in a lecture at the U. of Chicago this past summer that the Bush government at the time believed that Saddam and Al Qaeda were “joined at the hip.” The neocons pushed things over the edge, but the Iraq war can’t be laid entirely on them. Further, the MSM will never be permitted (or permit itself) to open the door to anti-Semitic sentiment.

      I agree generally with your implication that things are seriously worsening by the minute for the Israelis, and that in the process of “circling the wagons,” they are becomingly increasingly resistant to reason. I think that the Edgar Bronfmans and other influential diasporan Jews are going to have to step up, because no one else (especially, the US government) is in a position of influence with them.

      The American people are already suffering due to the financial crisis, and they do not appreciate having to do so to provide foreign aid (see Ron Paul’s popularity). Since Israel gets the lion’s share of aid, they are treading on very thin ice.

      The average American still sees Israel as David and the Arab/Muslim world as Goliath. He/she also sees it as “the only democracy in the middle east.” As these misconceptions continue to weaken, so will the support of the American public–something I believe is inevitable.

      The US high-level leadership knows of the views of people like Phil, Adam, Steve Walt, and many others. Walt for one has presented to the CIA and the US War College. Just maybe, our leadership is looking for a way out. Recall Hillary’s praise for Al Jazeera (now we have it for an hour a day in Chicago). Why did she praise it? Maybe because getting Al Jazeera is one important step to awakening the American public to the truth of the situation–a truth that has to be told by folks outside the government due to AIPAC et al.!

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      annie says:
      November 26, 2011 at 2:31 pm
      Annie, nobody has any responsibility to “save” the Jewish community, except Jews.

      i’m sorry chaos. i can’t keep track of everything i’ve said on this thread. could you copy the part where i was advocating ‘saving the jewish community’ so i could address it in context of the conversation. thanks.

      The consequences for non-Jews confronting what you’re talking about are FAR far greater than Jews, annie. That’s just a fact. It’s a waste of resources.

      i’m really not following you. it seems to me you are advocating non jews stay out of it while at the same time spending your time fighting against what you perceive as undo influence by powerful members of one ethnic group. i thought you weren’t jewish. if this is a problem you think only jews should solve why are you in this conversation.

      you’ve got to pick one position or the other chaos, you can’t pretend like you’re not being an activist while you’re being an activist. you’re either in this or you aren’t. or do you only speak up anonymously online? is that what the other 98% are afforded? an anonymous voice online? do you think george mitchell should have stayed out of it too. after all, he’s not jewish.

      we just disagree. obviously christian zionists are all over the place blathering what america should do for israel and they aren’t jews. i think the louder we are the better. i want a big american conversation and i want it NOW.

      that’s my opinion, it’s an american problem and it’s going to take an american solution, not a jewish american solution. and when things go to hell in a handbasket if we genocide iran i’m going to be holding america responsible, not just ‘the jewish community’.

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      lobewyper says:
      November 26, 2011 at 2:34 pm
      P.S. Here’s a possible move:

      Offer to trade Pollard for all the remaining Palestinians still imprisoned by Israel! :)

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      Chaos4700 says:
      November 26, 2011 at 2:38 pm
      I’m in this conversation because you’re advocating that people throw themselves off a cliff when the safety cushion at the bottom isn’t even inflated. Annie, people get RUINED for standing up to the Lobby, and not just in politics.

      If American Jews are indeed reforming, and they indeed need help, then they have to do something about that first. It’s one thing for someone to jump into sub-arctic waters to save someone who’s drowning (i.e. Palestine), it’s another thing to ask them to jump off a plane without a parachute to fetch a falling briefcase with really important papers in it (i.e. what you’re talking about).

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      annie says:
      November 26, 2011 at 2:41 pm
      “Just following orders” is never a valid defense, of anything.

      in case you have not noticed chaos, there are a lot more people ‘just following orders’ here than those in the jewish community. a LOT more. in fact i hold those in congress more responsible than my jewish neighbor across the street.

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      annie says:
      November 26, 2011 at 2:42 pm
      I’m in this conversation because you’re advocating that people throw themselves off a cliff

      source. copy and paste please.

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      Chaos4700 says:
      November 26, 2011 at 2:46 pm
      We’re both wasting time. You have no idea what you’re demanding people to put themselves through for a futile effort, and if I’m right, I’m sure some day you’ll feel sorry for that. I’ve said what I’ve said and I’m moving on.

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      annie says:
      November 26, 2011 at 3:03 pm
      you’re demanding people to put themselves through for a futile effort, and if I’m right, I’m sure some day you’ll feel sorry for that.

      sure chaos, getting all drama queenie on us. you’ve made a bunch of allegations and accusations you have no intention of backing up, because you can’t. if you could defend “you’re advocating that people throw themselves off a cliff ” you would. instead you tell me i’ll feel sorry someday for my position and claim i am “demanding” something. you tell me nobody has any responsibility to “save” the Jewish community except jews, using quotes, but i can’t recall that we were even in a conversation about “saving” the jewish community. excuse me?

      plus, i ask you politely for clarification and you double down on the rhetoric on your way out the door.

      I’m moving on.

      smart move.

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      seanmcbride says:
      November 26, 2011 at 3:19 pm
      annie:

      You wrote:

      “it is only part of a small ethnic group doing that. it’s completely racist to blame an entire ethnic group for the actions of some. i can’t believe we are even having this conversation.”

      The contemporary Jewish establishment is powerfully and overwhelmingly dominated by militant Zionists who loudly and conspicuously claim to speak for “the Jews” as a whole. They have drilled this belief deeply into the minds of most Americans and Europeans, who don’t have have the time and energy to sift through the subtleties of Zionist and Jewish politics, and most of whom have never heard Jewish voices like Philip Weiss.

      These same highly visible leaders have used high-handed and brutal methods to try to intimidate and silence the political opposition (including many highly influential Americans and Europeans right up to presidents and heads of state) in the fanatical pursuit of policies that are quite likely going to be catastrophic for the United States and Europe.

      I think it is important to have a discussion about what are some plausible or probable future scenarios concerning the role of Israel in American, European and global politics.

      *I* don’t think that “the Jews” or most Jews are responsible for the policies of the Israeli government or the Israel lobby. I never use the inflammatory term “the Jews” and don’t think of Jews in terms of a monolithic collective. But I am willing to bet that most Americans and Europeans conflate Israel and “the Jews” in their minds — after all, they have been heavily propagandized to do so by the leaders of the Jewish establishment. If Israeli policies lead to a great deal of misery for Americans and Europeans, it’s not difficult to imagine how events could play out.

      Am I being overly alarmist? Perhaps. But I don’t think so. There is a well-established historical pattern here that one shouldn’t ignore.

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      seanmcbride says:
      November 26, 2011 at 3:34 pm
      Chaos,

      If I understand your and Annie’s respective arguments correctly, I tend to agree with you. Leaders of the Jewish establishment have created the conditions in the United States in which it is impossible for American politicians to challenge, criticize or oppose the Israeli government and the Israel lobby without committing career suicide.

      Sean, I think you're right about this. These leaders have essentially attacked (and very effectively) one of our basic freedoms--freedom of speech. How are we as a democracy are supposed to be able to freely discuss our middle eastern foreign policy as it involves Israel? On this point, I agree with Annie--the problem is NOT merely a Jewish-American one, it belongs to and must be addressed by all of us!

    • Annie wrote,

      "[T]he vast majority of regular people are not engaged in this issue because they have been conditioned to leave it alone. but this is the field we need to talk to, the regular people who are not really informed or involved. because most people, when they understand what is happening, realize it is wrong."

      Agree--my experience exactly. And we are going to need their help. So, let's do this!

      Great suggestions on how to approach folks about this topic--thanks!

    • Annie,

      I am very glad we are on the same side, and I know you will continue to contribute to the cause of justice in a mighty way! Appreciate your response.

    • Cool! I thought only dragons could actually breathe fire, but Annie, you have shown here that humans can do it, too! Seriously, Chaos and others well describe my own situation. My kids think my interest in I-P is at least slightly pathological, not to mention a danger to my career. (Let me add that losing one's job is not the only possible type of retaliation.)

      This whole situation cries out for historical illumination. The one we're discussing simply can't be unique in human history. Let's find out how others have coped with a similar problem where the military power and money were hugely asymmetical.

      So far as idealism is concerned, it's got to be the ultimate driver. But each of us must personally calculate the level of perceived risk we are willing to take. Just because we may not be quite ready to join you in the streets, Annie, does not mean we are not supporters of the cause. I, for example, have shared my beliefs on the subject with several close friends--who until that time, had given very little thought to the matter. I have helped them sift through the MSM hasbara and I believe they are now far more on "our side." They in turn will talk to others, etc.

      My point is that much can be done (letters to government reps, to cable companies demanding AJE, etc.) short of putting oneself and/or family in the line of fire. We should probably try to be a little more tolerant of each other so that we can best foster the "synergy" that will sustain us through the difficult fight to come...

      PS: Mondoweiss could use a spell-checker!

    • Keith and others interested in the Syrian crisis, also check this out:

      http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/Files/Middle%20East%20North%20Africa/Iraq%20Syria%20Lebanon/Syria/B031%20Uncharted%20Waters%20-%20Thinking%20Through%20Syrias%20Dynamics.pdf

      Excerpt:

      "The Syrian crisis may or may not have entered its final
      phase, but it undoubtedly has entered its most dangerous
      one to date. The current stage is defined by an explosive
      mix of heightened strategic stakes tying into a regional
      and wider international competition on the one hand and
      emotionally charged attitudes, communal polarisation and
      political wishful thinking on the other. As dynamics in
      both Syria and the broader international arena turn squarely
      against the regime, reactions are ranging from hysterical
      defiance on the part of its supporters, optimism among
      protesters that a bloody stalemate finally might end and
      fears of sectarian retribution or even civil war shared by
      many, through to triumphalism among those who view
      the crisis as an historic opportunity to decisively tilt the
      regional balance of power.
      Yet, almost entirely missing is a sober assessment of the
      challenges provoked by these shifts and the very real risk
      that they could derail or even foreclose the possibility of a
      successful transition."

    • Keith said:

      "If we just let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely and we don’t try to piece together clever diplomacy, but just wage a total war… our children will sing great songs about us years from now.” (Michael Ledeen, following 9/11/01 attacks)

      So much for respecting "cultural diversity."

      Our leaders are similar to leaders everywhere. They are charged with protecting their countries' "interests," and if they can make a little money for themselves in the process, so much the better. We are talking straight Darwin here-intergroup competition.

      Yes, it is easily these days to kill a million people than to control them. But,
      consider the rise of telecommunications. It's not anywhere near as easy now (vs. the past) to conceal treachery and mass murder. In addition, the worldwide economic crisis has led to a huge increase in political awareness (tho, not necessarily of international politics--at least--yet). Do not count out the discontent of the people in many countries--the Arab spring was only the tip of the iceberg. This discontent can be tapped by those of us interested in social justice--for everyone!

      Maybe it will take a series of catastrophes to bring the masses to their senses and accompanying demands for real democracy and social justice. (As you can see, I'm not quite willing to give up the ghost on this quite yet.) Keep speaking truth to power!

    • Thanks, Keith,

      For the Escobar link. Looks like things might be a lot more complicated than I have imagined...great read!

    • It's been suggested that the Israelis are so crazed that they might go so far as to trigger WW III. Don't believe it! Only if the USA can be brought into the fight with them. Have you noticed how hyper-vigilant the Zionists are to the slightest sign that American support might be weakening? This is not the behavior of a crazy, but of somebody pretending to be--while carefully monitoring the reactions of others to his behavior.

    • Stop hitting on Annie, gazacalling, american and split! (She's so cute that she has to put up with that stuff every day!) :)

    • "Again leaving out the US press, it’s an alert a day in the world press on some gov official rushing off to tell the crazy Israelis not to do anything crazy."

      Funny!

    • Hi Sean,

      The Israeli Zionists are not going to do anything to seriously threaten their US supporters. They will not attack Iran without US participation, which I believe is most unlikely. They are bluffing, and part of their act is the "mad dog" routine (Moshe Dayan).

      I cannot really comment on the verbal attacks (which you point out are entirely self-defeating) except to say that they are probably acts of sheer desperation. Things are rapidly coming apart. (Good!)

    • P.S. Here's a possible move:

      Offer to trade Pollard for all the remaining Palestinians still imprisoned by Israel! :)

    • Sean,

      My take: Unless "their delusional beliefs in the real world" lead to an attack upon Iran, I don't think I agree with you (although I'm hardly an expert on foreign policy!). Re: your point # 2--I think you're overestimating the effects of this. Re: #3, it won't be all that easy to pin the War on Terror on the (mostly Jewish) neocons. John Mearsheimer said in a lecture at the U. of Chicago this past summer that the Bush government at the time believed that Saddam and Al Qaeda were "joined at the hip." The neocons pushed things over the edge, but the Iraq war can't be laid entirely on them. Further, the MSM will never be permitted (or permit itself) to open the door to anti-Semitic sentiment.

      I agree generally with your implication that things are seriously worsening by the minute for the Israelis, and that in the process of "circling the wagons," they are becomingly increasingly resistant to reason. I think that the Edgar Bronfmans and other influential diasporan Jews are going to have to step up, because no one else (especially, the US government) is in a position of influence with them.

      The American people are already suffering due to the financial crisis, and they do not appreciate having to do so to provide foreign aid (see Ron Paul's popularity). Since Israel gets the lion's share of aid, they are treading on very thin ice.

      The average American still sees Israel as David and the Arab/Muslim world as Goliath. He/she also sees it as "the only democracy in the middle east." As these misconceptions continue to weaken, so will the support of the American public--something I believe is inevitable.

      The US high-level leadership knows of the views of people like Phil, Adam, Steve Walt, and many others. Walt for one has presented to the CIA and the US War College. Just maybe, our leadership is looking for a way out. Recall Hillary's praise for Al Jazeera (now we have it for an hour a day in Chicago). Why did she praise it? Maybe because getting Al Jazeera is one important step to awakening the American public to the truth of the situation--a truth that has to be told by folks outside the government due to AIPAC et al.!

    • Sean,

      I'm not so sure Zionism (in the absence of an attack upon Iran) will lead to an anti-Semitic outbreak. Why? Because there won't be an attack on Iran which at best would probably set back an Iranian nuclear program a few years at best. Then (when the anti-Semitic wave is in full swing due to the initial attack), they will have to attack again, increasing anti-Semitism still further. Way too risky and the Israelis aren't that stupid. If they ARE that stupid, they will richly deserve their subsequent fate!

    • The Israelis IMHO are bluffing. They get ex-heads of the Mossad to say publicly that an Iran attack would be catastrophic for Israel, yet the Israeli leadership "appear" to be unmoved by such arguments. Result: so long as they remain in power, others will believe that they just might do it--even alone. (I realize I have just accused former Mossad leaders of complicity in helping deliberately to mislead not only their countrymen but all the rest of us! Hope Israeli drones can't reach the Midwest...).

      This "We'll go it alone if we have to" is simply too risky. Not only is the risk of losing US aid great (due to $10 gas, etc.), but they also risk huge losses of financial support from Diasporan Jews. My advice, Bibi: "Cut the best deal you can as fast as you can." Time is definitely running out!

    • Thanks, American. Great find! Another quote from Arshin:

      "If the analysis of a country is wrong the policy prescriptions are bound to be wrong too. Afghanistan and Iraq are very good examples of that relationship between the absence of sound knowledge on a country and strategic failure."

    • Teta mother me,

      I accept your criticism of my words here. What I should have said is that the Iran leadership has foolishly uttered words to the effect that Israel is a cancer and should be eliminated, and that the world would be a better place without it. Such talk helps Israeli militants make the case for a pre-emptive strike upon a country it hates and fears. It fuels also the David (Israel) vs. Goliath (Iran) mentality that the Israelis have so diligently and carefully nurtured--particularly among its US supporters. It is for these reasons that I questioned the Emotional IQ of the Iranisan leadership--for not having realized that their provocative remarks would ultimately be used very effectively against them by Israel and its backers.

      (I did not mean to imply that Iranian criticism of Israel in many respects is not justified.)

    • Teta mother me,

      What a wonderful way to be able to remember your father--you are most fortunate!

      "He never made a lot of money but he made it his life’s mission to respect every life he encountered. When he died the entire town came to his funeral. He gave love and he found his way to heaven in love."

    • American, whether the US would back an Israeli strike is the question. I don't think there is going to be a strike, by anyone. Even with US backing/or participation, the perception is still going to be that a strike was Israel's idea, and there is still going to be serious anti-Semitic backlash, because it is well known that Israel owns the US government from the president on down.

      For the US to back Israel against Iran would lead to the alienation of too many people, cause too much havoc in the world economy, and the American people are sick of war.

      The US-Israeli grand strategy may be something like this: Stir up as much discussion of a proposed strike against Iran as possible, and keep the sheeple focused on it. In the meantime, the Israelis will use this focus to distract attention from increasingly aggressive land theft in the West Bank. Later, when war is "averted" at the last minute, Obama can take the credit for bringing the Israeli government back to its "senses."

    • MRW said:

      "You’re right about the global antisemitism. It will be chilling in its generational reach, and it will last for the rest of this century too for the simple reason that it will spawn books and monographs that will attempt to ask whether Hitler was right. The European laws against mentioning the holocaust will be reversed, and we will be flooded with translations of documents long hidden."

      Agree that heightened anti-Semitism could last a long time. Doubt the scenario you outline re: Hitler, however--I would hope people would have more sense than that.
      The info you provide about Russia is most interesting (and encouraging).

    • Because of the potential dangers of such an outbreak, Israel will NEVER launch a pre-emptive strike against Iran by herself. However, she is certainly going to continue trying to get the United States to do it for (and perhaps, with) her!

    • It will have to accept it, if it comes to that. Moreover, If Israel preemptively attacks Iran, the resultant effects on world-wide economies (see article linked by Annie) would rapidly lead to the worst outbreak of anti-Semitism since the Holocaust, IMHO.

    • OK, american, I tip my hat to you!

    • Sorry, but didn't realize the answer to my question was implicit in the Salon article:

      "What a nuclear Iran really threatens, as several top Israeli officials have admitted, is Israeli hegemony in the region. The Arab Spring and the rise of Turkey have already begun to erode that hegemony, and Iran’s inevitable acquisition of the ability to build a bomb will further erode it. Israel cannot fight this trend. The days when it could impose its will by bullying are over. It must learn to live with its neighbors."

      (The article also makes the point that an Iranian attack would lead to massive nuclear retaliation.)

    • Iran's leaders may lack "emotional intelligence" judging by the depreciating remarks they have uttered about Israel, but as Steve Walt and many others have pointed out, there is not a shred of evidence that they are suicidal. Israel has more than enough warheads and the means to deliver them to ensure an Iranian attack would trigger retaliation that would lay waste to their entire country. This obvious point seems to keep being overlooked by the war drums folks both here and in Israel. Why??? (Thanks, Annie!)

  • Brave ‘NYT’ describes Israel’s efforts to ‘pinkwash’ occupation
    • Interesting post, Phil and Adam,

      But don't get too excited about the NYT obviating the need MW any time soon...ain't goin' to happen!

  • In 1950, Doubleday censored frank account of Deir Yassin massacre from prominent American's book
    • From Chapter V of "Will the Middle East go West?" published in 1957 by Freda Utley:

      "The situation is not hopeless, thanks to President Eisenhower's courageous and principled stand against the Anglo-French-Israeli attack on Egypt, and to the confidence in America which his speaking-out engendered among millions of Arabs. In the words of the most respected and best informed of British publications, the Economist:

      "President Eisenhower electrified Asia and has won a respect he never previously enjoyed first by speaking without thought of the Jewish vote in the United States on the eve of a Presidential election, and then by the firmness with which he warned both his Anglo-French friends and Israel that they must conform to the will of the United Nations.

      "If President Eisenhower is of the stuff of which great American presidents are made, and if he is supported by the American people, he will be able to formulate and enforce a just and lasting peace between Israel and the Arab world, based on the principles which have made the United States great, strong, free and respected.

      "Courageous" and "principled." How long has it been since we could accurately use these terms to describe our leaders? It makes me want to cry...

    • This is a great post, Phil! I encourage all who haven't yet to peruse Utley's "Will the Middle East go West?" As for making common cause with the Right, I hope we can, but you seem to be talking about right-wing publishers from the middle 1950's here, as I understand you. To which right-wing thinkers are you referring?

  • Unprecedented Minneapolis forum of 4 Jews arguing about Israel is on-line now
    • I'm actually glad Lear was on the panel even though he offered nothing but hasbara. E.g., poor little Israel has had to fight 8 wars to date (and therefore continues to be entitled to massive US aid). He neglected to mention how many of those wars Israel initiated, of course. Schwartz was the clear winner, but the JVP guy spoke from the heart and was quite impressive, as well (IMHO).

  • National Press Club suspends journalist over tough questions for Saudi prince
  • Kissinger: 'Is there a more self-serving group of people than the Jewish community?'
    • Citizen says:
      November 19, 2011 at 2:51 pm
      Famous Kissinger line: “Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.”

      You can't be suggesting that it took the human race until Kissinger to realize this--or are you?

    • I think there are strictures in the Torah against behaviors that call negative attention to Jews as a whole (collective). Seems like militant Zionists have ignored such for quite a long time, now.

    • RoHa says:
      November 18, 2011 at 11:57 pm
      ‘“Is there a more self-serving group of people than the Jewish community?”

      is a racist statement, Adam Horowitz.’

      First, it was Kissinger who said it.

      Second, it is technically racist in the sense that it is about a particular ethnic group, but the important issue is whether it is true? If it is, why is it wrong to say it?

      Roha,

      It isn't wrong--or if it is--it's not far off the mark. It is, however, "politically incorrect..."

  • Six Palestinian Freedom Riders arrested traveling on Israeli-only bus
  • Gorenberg says a one-state solution would produce another Lebanon
  • ESPN and NYT should be ashamed for tiptoeing around rape at heart of Penn State outrage
    • Bumblebye,

      Thanks for sharing. What happened to your son and family is absolutely reprehensible and I don't know how you've all managed to deal with it--glad your son is doing OK!

  • James Baker blasts Obama as 'shortsighted' on settlements, on 20th anniversary of Madrid
    • “I don't understand how US can oppose settlements for 30 plus years, then veto a UN resolution opposing settlements.”

      Well Mr. Baker, why don't you go on to say what we all know: the Lobby and its money have bought and paid for almost the entire US Congress as well as the Presidency. American "democracy" has been thoroughly corrupted and is the world's laughing-stock.

  • Israel's policy of divide and survive
    • Schwartz here courageously lays out how Israel has successfully engaged in
      (to paraphrase Steve Walt and others) "on-shore balancing."

  • Avigdor Lieberman proposes 45% tax on foreign donations to leftist orgs (no word on funding for settlers from the US)
    • This proposed tax is one more bit of evidence that the Israeli government is fundamentally anti-democratic. Where is it written that "leftists" are less entitled than others to promote their political views?

  • Behind closed doors Sarkozy and Obama spill the beans
  • Voice in wilderness, Ron Paul calls for friendship with Iran
  • Obama administration approves navy warships seizing two boats carrying peace activists and letters to Gaza as necessary for Israeli 'security'
    • Her off-the-record answer to your last question: "I believe H. L. Mencken's term for the average American was 'Boobus Americanus,' and I completely agree with that descriptor."

  • Tutu: East Jerusalem echoes Cape Town
  • Strategic asset or rogue state? Israel's threats to Iran 'concern' Pentagon
    • "Herman Cain thinks Israel is attacking China."

      Jesus, Phil, give the poor guy a break! There's a whole lot of countries to have to think about and keep striaght--it had to be just a brief lapse of memory... :)

  • Sadly, Americans need permission from Israeli heroes to stick a fork in Zionism
    • I think we have to give Ruth Dayan (in contrast to Mr. Goldstone) a great deal of credit for refusing to compromise her principles and values. She is a courageous and good person who has managed to maintain (and probably--enhance) her personal integrity over the course of her long life thus far. Ruth obviously values human beings generally instead of a particular subset of the species. Ruth, you are a true role model and inspiration!

  • Goldstone sugarcoats persecution to try to save Israel
  • South Africans think Israel is practicing apartheid
    • Doesn't anyone remember that Jimmy Carter guy? Didn't he say something about this a while back? How soon we forget!

  • UNESCO votes to admit Palestine as a full member
    • Great article, CandD,

      Freeman is terrific throughout this article. My favorite line:

      "Of course, we’re not a bully. We’re just a superpower with attitude."

  • How's that for turnaround time? -- US cuts off funding for UNESCO
  • Romney promises to abdicate American foreign policy towards Israel . . . to Israel
  • Testimony of an Israeli activist who was robbed and beaten by settlers while attempting to assist the olive harvest
    • "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it. "

      Babylonian Talmud, tractate Shabbat 31a

  • Finkelstein thinks shift in young Jewish opinion means there will be 2 (viable) states. Mearsheimer doesn't
    • I am beginning to see why militant Zionists hate Mearsheimer--he is one intellectually tough dude...

  • 'That’s what democracy means': Kristof makes the common sense argument for one state
    • "Weird that Kristof doesn’t event float the possibility of Washington cutting off its lavish aid to Israel, which he, like nearly all American intellectuals, seems to take as a fact of nature just like Lake Erie or the Tehachapi Mountains."

      Perhaps because he would summarily be fired if he did...

    • I agree, LeaNder--this is more evidence that the tide is turning against Israeli (and US) hardliners...

  • The Department of Corrections: Ben-Hur, the LA Times & a place called Palestine

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