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Total number of comments: 745 (since 2011-08-12 22:42:20)

I don't mind admitting I am a Zionist, but would like to say there are Zionists and there are Zionists.

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  • Aussie media focus on Carr's assertion that Israel lobby had 'direct line' into Prime Minister's office
    • Sumud, you don't seem to care if you stir up a little anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism for you is like dust - it will eventually settle. If you happen to hurt a few Jews in the process of fighting for your precious Palestinian cause then that is of no concern. Jew hatred is prevalent in Muslim communities in Australia but that doesn't seem to bother you. You suck up to multiculturalism like it is some kind of ethnic lollipop.

      Remember when the Grand Mufti of Australia, Dr Ibrahim Abu Mohammed, Australia's senior Islamic cleric threatened to withdraw community support for federal Labor in Western Sydney if union leader Paul Howes replaced Bob Carr in the Senate. A leaked email reveals what he said:
      "Paul has had a repeated pattern of blind bias toward Israel. His appointment would not at all help the -engagement effort between the ALP and the wider Muslim community.

      "As you know we have worked very hard to marshal our community to support and successfully retain the majority of ALP seats in Western Sydney against all odds, and the choice of Paul will threaten our efforts to maintain this momentum, especially if new elections are called in the next year."

      Now this is the kind of corrupt, nefarious influence that is despicable in our country, not the efforts of Jews who have contributed so much more to the well-being of Australia than Muslims who outnumber them 5:1 and dominate the crime statistics in the suburbs where they live.

    • This talk of 'over-influential' Jews reminds us vividly of what happened in Nazi Germany.

  • Australia opposed Palestinian UN bid because foreign policy was 'subcontracted to Jewish donors' -- report
    • Jews contribute an extraordinary disproportionate amount to Australian society and are currently involved in the front line of a significant national debate about mooted changes to the Racial Discrimination Act. They are perfectly entitled to exploit their position to express their views.
      To demean what they are saying because of the strength of their influence on society is to denigrate their success in achieving prominence in the fabric of the nation.
      What about focussing on a lobby that does wield real inordinate power selfishly like the Organisation of Islamic Countries in the United Nations that has turned the UN into a complete joke?

  • 'Poof' -- Kerry blames Israel for breakdown of talks (Updated)
    • Anybody who reads between the lines can see that the unwillingness of the Arabs to accept Israel as a Jewish state is the fundamental blocker and these other 'poof' issues are mere sideshows.

  • In Ramallah, Palestinian Authority cracks down on Salafi anti-negotiation protests
    • And for the Israeli authorities membership in any Palestinian political party is strictly forbidden

      How about some supporting evidence for this assertion? According to my searches on this point the PA comprises a raft of political parties and it would seem to me that the Palestinians can affiliate with any of them.

      in spite of the extreme rhetoric their activities are non-violent

      Of course Hizb ut-Tahrir have started off slowly like the Muslim Brotherhood did in Egypt, but eventually their aim is to strangle democracy and impose Islamism. The PA is wise to clamp down on this group whose aims are nefarious.
      In a charter signed by Salafists (see
      link to khilafah.com)
      it is stated in clause 7 that one of their fundamentals is:
      "A call to the Ummah to awaken her pious and strong soldiers to go forth in Al-Jihaad so as to remove the Jewish entity of occupation from all of the land of Palestine and to liberate all of the occupied Muslim lands."

  • 'For me, Palestine is paradise': An interview with Leila Khaled
    • You are a Palestinian refugee, one of six million

      This is obscene, disgusting propaganda.
      There might be 6 million in the whole Palestinian diaspora but certainly not six million who could be classified as refugees.
      Furthermore it is abhorrent to tout a number like 'six million' which has obvious Holocaust connotations.
      As far as Khaled is concerned she seeks nothing less than an annihilatory military victory over Israel.
      The interviewer is a complete wimp, letting Khaled spew out her political invective unchallenged.

  • Apathy in Ramallah as negotiations with Israel dive
    • @annie, how about an independent source that proves 'Israel is murdering Palestinian children with impunity'. You certainly like to use inciteful, inflammatory language that has no basis in fact.

    • @annie, can't you distinguish between pre-conditions that have to be satisfied in order for negotiations to continue with pre-existing factors that already are standing?
      As for the latter just to mention a few that Israel has to deal with:
      1. Unwillingness to accept Israel as a Jewish state
      2. Education process that breeds judeophobes
      3. Hamas
      4. Leadership that is unable to make any landmark decisions for fear of severe retributions

    • @annie, the easy way out is to blame Israel for the demise of the Palestinians, whose leaders have failed to lead their own people responsibly. To repeat Israeli diplomat Abba Eban words, the Palestinian leadership "has never lost an opportunity to lose an opportunity."
      Without foundation you stridently slander Israel as

      killing with impunity

      Do you ever bother to utter a word of concern about PA corruption where extrajudicial killings are commonplace?
      And then you spruik, without any regard for facts, your classical left-wing hyperbole

      israel demands the pre condition of occupying millions of palestinians

      At least 'hasbara' is an honest attempt to explain - your approach is just rhetoric.
      Rational argument is certainly not your method.

    • The demands from both sides are the failure points in the negotiations. Israel made concessions to release Palestinian prisoners, while the Palestinians offered nothing in return.
      The concerns of each side need to be properly resolved through the negotiation process and not by insisting they become the pre-conditions for on-going talks.
      Neither side trusts the other so there is no prospect for any real move forward and Hamas is always the spoiler. I am sure Israelis feel the same apathetic scepticism as the Palestinians in Ramallah.

  • Reports: Abbas faults Israel for 'procrastinating,' says Palestine will move to join int'l organizations
    • "That Israel is again being pressured over prisoner releases is scandalous. The government was bludgeoned by the US into releasing these mass murderers on the clear understanding that the four phases of release would only be fulfilled if there was progress in the negotiations. Abbas has made it abundantly clear that he will not compromise on anything and yet the Americans persist in exerting pressure.
      "There are unconfirmed reports that the Americans are even considering the release of Pollard to make the terrorist release more palatable to the Israeli public and induce Netanyahu to include Arab Israeli
      terrorists (which Israel had never endorsed) in the final phase. If Pollard, who by any benchmark should have been released a long time ago, is now to be used as a pawn to pressure Israel to release more mass murderers, it reflects an abominable, almost obscene, lapse in morality on the part of the Obama Administration." Read link to jwire.com.au

  • 'The clash of civilizations’ theory is absolutely and completely dead
    • @Walid, you try to give the false impression that Israel was playing aggressor. Israeli military and intelligence experts emphasized that the country’s immediate security issues were reason enough to confront Hezbollah. Shabtai Shavit, a national-security adviser to the Knesset who headed the Mossad, Israel’s foreign-intelligence service, from 1989 to 1996, said, “We do what we think is best for us, and if it happens to meet America’s requirements, that’s just part of a relationship between two friends. Hezbollah is armed to the teeth and trained in the most advanced technology of guerrilla warfare. It was just a matter of time. We had to address it".
      Refer link to newyorker.com
      In any case this is blame without shame, a tactical mistake. Never can an Arab say to a Jew in the Middle East arena that we were wrong or you are right on any public issue if he wants to come back alive to his family. Even Khaled abu Toameh, the Israeli journalist who condemns many things the PA does, is not willing to openly criticize his Arab brethren on public media. In his recent visit to Australia he refused to appear on national media because of the shit treatment he has received when he has tried to do this in the past. On the other hand Israeli Jews speak freely, often openly criticizing what their countrymen say.

    • @Renner, how about a single link to anything that shows Arabs accepting blame for any of their misadventures.

  • BDS' big night: Loyola student government passes divestment, U. Mich votes it down
    • @seafoid, more of your upside down logic. Israel has released prisoners, who were murderous terrorists, and what will they get in return? Probably more murderous terrorists.

    • @seafoid, the typical man in the street aware of the enormous suffering that Jews have experienced throughout history will hear that the Arabs are unwilling to recognise Israel as a Jewish state and say to himself that those Arabs aren't serious about reconciliation. They will conclude that the Arabs don't want peace. According to your perverse, upside down logic unless Israel doesn't give in to the PA's nonnegotiable, unreasonable demands then the Israeli's don't want peace. LMAO.

  • US Jewish leaders blast Harvard students on pro-Israel trip for taking photo at Arafat's tomb (Update)
    • @annie, funny how you and your MW mates do not denounce all the myths that exist around Islam, including the significance of Jerusalem to their faith and the ugly politicization that stems from such.
      In an article Palestinian Authority Demands Control of Western Wall
      the "Buraq Wall, the term used by Palestinian Minister of Religious Affairs Mahmoud al-Habash to denote the Western Wall, is the Muslim term for the western retaining wall of the Temple Mount. In its later years, Islam claimed that this was the place where the Prophet Mohammed tied his magical horse Al-Buraq after being transported from Mecca to Jerusalem.
      Refer link to israeltoday.co.il

    • A raft of scatological remarks by those who delight in demeaning Jewish history, or anything Jewish for that fact.
      @Taxi, read the summary of the article about Masada that you trumpeted:

      Early interpretations may have been skewed, but it was not fraud; and the archaeologists' own carefully collected data led eventually to a reassessment.

      Your knee jerk response about pig bones, without reading the article, hoping to discredit the Jews who died heroically at Masada.
      Overlooking the fact that the Romans overran the site afterwards and that "the sacrifice of pigs was a Roman burial custom".

  • Some liberal Zionists will blame Netanyahu for failure of talks
    • Israel declared itself as a Jewish State in 1947. The U.N. divided the country into two parts: one part was for the Jews as a homeland and they called it Israel. At the same time the 'Palestinians' were given the other part of the Palestine Mandate (carved back severely from what it had been originally in 1922) for a Palestinian state, but they rejected it and instead went to war.
      Israel won, and won again and again and Israel became bigger, stronger and more populous, so now the PA wants what they lost in wars given to them on a silver platter.
      The talks currently underway will fail because the 'Palestinians' are not prepared to abrogate their so-called right of return (ROR), which is a malicious effort to undermine the Jewish state that they are unwilling to recognize. It was bad enough for Abbas when he personally said he would not take up his own ROR. The shame and humiliation that he would face from his own people would destroy him so his hands are tied.
      There is nothing 'supremacist' about the efforts of Israelis to establish a state that is fundamentally a Jewish homeland that was the intention of the British and then the UN following the Balfour declaration.
      In this sense Israel is no different from any other nation that is
      established fundamentally for the benefit of those people who are eligible to be its citizens.

    • Jeremy Ben-Ami

      assailed rightwinger Benjamin Netanyahu's insistence that Palestinians recognize Israel as a "Jewish state," and echoed Secretary of State John Kerry's regret over the forcing of this issue

      The so-called liberal Zionists delude themselves that this issue of Israel being recognized as Jewish state is not important to resolving the conflict. The trouble is that this issue is CENTRAL to the conflict.
      Dror Eydar in a piece on Israel Hayom sums it up perfectly:
      "Why should it be necessary to search high and low for Palestinian recognition of a Jewish state? Because there is none. One can read the declarations of the Palestinian Authority and its leaders over the past 20 years. Indeed, opposing recognition of Israel as the national home of the Jewish people is more important to the Palestinians than land, since this is the true heart of the conflict, rather than the other territorial nonsense that the Left has been selling for years. It's not about territory and not about settlements and not about refugee rights, not at all."
      Refer link to israelhayom.com

  • Bloodbath in Jenin
  • 'Nobody knew where I was, nobody… I was simply disappeared': An Italian tourist's Ben Gurion nightmare
    • @sumud, you are jumping the gun. That's what these talks going on at the moment are about. It has yet to be established that the 'Palestinians' have the wherewithal to establish a state that will be viable and not violate Israel's integrity and security.

    • @sumud, you are jumping the gun. That's what these talks going on at the moment are about. It has yet to be established that the 'Palestinians' have the wherewithal to establish a state that will be vioable and not violate Israel's integrity and security.

  • Loyola University Chicago student union passes resolution to divest from Israeli occupation
    • Using retribution instead of reconciliation will only exacerbate the situation. The pro-BDS nongs seem to have a lot of trouble realising this. They operate from an inapplicable model that their old school adherents have copied from the South African situation. Confrontation will lead to failure of the Palestinian cause - history has proven that.

  • State Dept puts American seal of approval on latest Israeli-initiated round of violence
    • @Donald, Palestinians are often the aggressors. Israel has gone to great lengths to protect its civilian population from the incessant rocket attacks from Gaza. This is not a numbers game.

    • Even the head of the United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has strongly condemned the multiple rocket attacks from Gaza against Israel. The US is not alone. Read
      link to un.org

  • Does Israel Have a Right to Exist as a Jewish State?: An excerpt from Ali Abunimah's 'The Battle for Justice in Palestine'
    • It seems Israel doesn't have the right to be a Jewish state in the same way as I am not prevented from making pro-Jewish comments on Mondoweiss. All part of the same conspiracy.

    • In the Old Testament the concept of the stranger or Ger Tsedek refers only to a convert to Judaism, not to the generic concept of a stranger.

    • @ecru, your dismissive attitude to Jew hatred reflects back on you.
      Sad how a couple of Jews have fostered an online forum in MW that provides fertile ground for people like ecru and cliff who think that pro-Zionist Jews are just cry-babies worrying about breaking their fingernails and are given free rein to strut this kind of judeophobia.

  • Gaza heats up: Israel bombards coastal enclave under siege with multiple airstrikes
    • roots of the latest fighting are Israeli violations of the November 2012 truce between Hamas and Israel

      Islamic Jihad or whoever have been waiting 16 months to respond!
      Making it up as you go Mr. Kane?
      Any cease fire for Hamas is just a Hudna - buying them time to regroup for the next attack. Only the elimination of Israel will satisfy them. They are an enemy that can ever be placated.

  • US Homeland Security investigates Israeli arms deal to Iran
    • What a grand conclusion Silverstein makes:

      Israel itself would be found to be in violation of U.S. sanctions law

      Somehow Silverstein manages to pin this whole tendentious thing on Israel as a whole. Such bizarre enigmatic reporting!

  • State Dept to 'check out' vicious attack on Palestinian athletes
    • You get a report from Haaretz by Amira Hass who is one of your most dedicated anti-Israel pro-Palestinian journalists and you dunderheads still don't like it.
      When Peter kept on crying wolf eventually they woke up to what he was doing.
      One of the comments to The Nation article sums us what Israel and Jews are dealing with:
      Keyser Soze said, "Nice try hasbara shill. Always trying to distract from the topic at hand. Why do Israeli Jews keep shooting innocent people?"
      to which Richard responded:
      To make matzoh with their blood of course.

  • Pelosi calls Israel's creation 'the most spectacular political achievement of the 20th century'
  • How 'trigger-happy' soldiers killed an unarmed man walking to work
    • Using language like 'trigger happy' exposes how biased the report is before you even read a word of it.

    • WJC CEO Robert Singer said. “Amnesty International’s charges are tendentious and its conclusions unfair. Once again, the organization seems to be focusing far more on Israel than on pursuing its mission to expose egregious human-rights violators.”
      The IDF dismissed the allegations, saying security forces had seen a “substantial increase” in Palestinian violence and Amnesty had revealed a “complete lack of understanding” about the difficulties soldiers faced.”
      This is the standard behavior of organizations riddled with pro-Palestinian sympathisers who operate with a deliberate anti-Israel demonizing agenda.
      Amnesty International showed its true colors when it selected the anti-Semitic Roger Waters, the former Pink Floyd bassist, who has brazenly floated a pig with a Jewish Star of David at concerts across Europe and is a leader in efforts to culturally boycott Israel, to present it’s top humanitarian Ambassador of Conscience award. Refer link to algemeiner.com

  • Israel lobby AIPAC is down, but not out -- yet
    • @ellen, how deceptive your comments are. In the corruption index you referred to Israel is actually ranked in the top 20% of the least corrupt countries. If Palestine ever becomes a state with a leadership like they have now they are likely to be right at the bottom of the table. Refer link to algemeiner.com

    • @Ellen & Talkback, the report did falsely claim:
      "AIPAC promotes Israeli policies that are in direct opposition to international law, including the establishment of settlements in the Occupied West Bank" and
      "AIPAC is trying to push a bill through Congress that would cut federal funding to American academic institutions that advocate a boycott of Israel."
      Hophmi got the $3 trillion number wrong but Ellen and Talkback's ripostes were way off key, the usual we have come to expect from pro-Palestinian knee jerkers.

  • Thanking Wieseltier, Shavit wants to save young American Jews who've been 'exposed to anti-Israel propaganda'
    • But I don’t think I need Israel to be Jewish!

      Why didn't Philip say this more affirmatively "I don't need Israel to be Jewish!"?
      Is he hedging his bets?
      If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. (Psalm 137:5)

  • Political Zionism is destroying a culture and a people, and intentionally so
    • US taxpayers pay for lots of slams against Islamic people, and they pay for lots of support of likud Israel

      Do Zionists blow up buildings all round the world?
      Do Zionists dispatch terrorist emissaries to kill innocent civilians?
      Do Zionists engage in religious wars where they massacre Zionists who disagree with their views?
      Do Zionists follow a doctrine that advances global jihad?
      @citizen, the money that goes towards Israel (not just likud Israel) is to maintain and protect a tiny nation from possible annihilation.
      The money the US invests stops the Middle East from descending into an Islamic inferno.

    • There is all this hoo haa about Zionism, but not a word about the other 'ism' Islamism, which has led to far more conflict, killing and abuse, which is evident every SINGLE day.
      Such disproportionate behavior by anti-Zionists proves that they possess a manifestly perverse and distorted view of the world.

  • When you type 'apartheid' on Google search, it supplies 'Israel'
    • And if you type the word 'Jew' into Google your search returns the website JewWatch on the first page. Just goes to show that our planet is full of anti-semitism.

  • By 2035, Jewish population in Israel/Palestine is projected at 46 percent
    • I believe that there are about 1 million Israeli Jews living outside of Israel.

      @keith, one can only wonder at how many other things you believe in that are false.
      A 2012 report by the Knesset research center revealed there are somewhere between 230,000 and 750,000 Israeli citizens abroad. Read
      link to foreignpolicy.com
      Good summary there:
      "There are countless reasons for Israelis and Palestinians to seek peace, but a false demographic panic should not be one of them. Israel still has many years and policy tools to prevent the disappearance of a Jewish majority in the areas under Israeli sovereignty. The vices involved with ruling another people are many, and the benefits peace would bring are innumerable -- but the motivation to resolve the conflict should not stem from the threat of ticking demographic time bombs."

  • Scarlett Johansson's 'scholarship' and 'intelligence' cited by Mike Huckabee
    • @hostage, the fundamental problem with your logic is that the settlements are not legally illegal so there is no basis for any action by the IRS.

    • @Norr, your deflection is rather disingenuous.

      Shurat HaDin has demanded Oxfam sever its ties with the Union of Health Workers Committees (UHWC) and the Union of Agricultural Worker’s Committee (UAWC), two agencies that were created by the PFLP and operate under the direct patronage and in close cooperation with the PFLP, which is a terror organization.

      The problem is that the UAWC and its personnel have deep links with the PFLP which is a proscribed terrorist organisation under the relevant UN list.See link to theaustralian.com.au

      @Norr, isn't that plain enough for you?
      In 2003, Oxfam-Belgium produced a poster of an “Israeli orange” dripping with blood to promote anti-Israel boycotts. The caption read “Israeli fruits have a bitter taste… reject the occupation of Palestine, don’t buy Israeli fruits and vegetables.” Following protests over what NGO Monitor called “antisemitic ‘blood libel’ overtones,” Oxfam withdrew the campaign. Refer link to ngo-monitor.org

  • Israelis don't trust Obama because he is 'distant' and tried to 'unBush' US policy -- 'Haaretz' editor
    • The settlements are on Palestinian state and private lands and Israel won’t get to keep those under any settlement if they become the subject of a situation in the ICC

      @hostage, the trouble is that the US will stop aid to the Palestinians if they go to the ICC. The Palestinians, who blissfully waste that aid, nonetheless critically depend on it.

  • Disenfranchised: How the NYT spins the status of Palestinian land
    • they said that in Yamit too

      @seafoid, what translation service are using - the Hamas Hebrew department?
      Nowhere in the video you attached is there any suggestion that "However, we are not going anywhere. We are here to stay. In all our land. Forever”
      These are the relevant words:
      And I spread my wings above the rocks and sands

      With anguish of your views, I'm gone like a dream

      But I still remain there

      In the scars of fire and flame

      With the trumpets of fame and with guilty drums

      And so I leave you shivering

      My stranger and foreign

      My beautiful and lost

      Like a legend

      A very poignant song that depicts the great courage of Israel to trade territory for a cold peace with Egypt.

    • Page: 7
    • they are the occupied Palestinian territories: meaning the land belongs to Palestine and it is occupied by Israel

      This might be the author's opinion and the opinion of many around here but it is simply not true. Refer link to meforum.org
      The author is a member of Friends of Sabeel - refer link to adl.org - so her political prejudices have been openly declared, alerting us to the anti-semitic theology to which she subscribes.
      You keep harrassing the world, send out terrorists to make sure people get the message and eventually we realize that unless we GIVE the 'Palestinians' a state they won't shut up. That is the strategy - to annoy, intimidate, delegitimize and demonize the other side as a way of gaining sympathy - it is all part of a devious campaign by those who basically hate Israel and what it represents.
      Harriet Sherwood is a case in point. A journalist who was meant to be reporting on events in the Middle East was a biased political activist always willing to propagate lies for the Palestinian cause. Thankfully she has left the Guardian but unfortunately has been replaced by her stringer, Hazem Balousha (who played a key role in Jon Donnison’s infamous fauxtography scandal in 2012). The frequent discovery of these kinds of lies and distortions by Palestinian advocates shows the lack of basic honesty amongst those who lobby against Israel.
      And what about the Kurds - they have been seeking a state a lot longer than the 'Palestinians'?

    • @Hostage, on April 24, 1950, the Jordan House of Deputies and House of Notables, in a joint session, adopted a resolution making the West Bank and Jerusalem part of Jordan. This act had no basis in international law; it was only the de facto act of Trans-Jordan as a conqueror. The other Arab countries denied formal recognition of the Jordanian move and only two governments – Great Britain and Pakistan – formally recognized the Jordanian takeover. The rest of the world, including the United States, never did. This was clearly annexation. Refer link to en.wikipedia.org

      The notion that “Jordan” seized or occupied the West Bank is a Zionist propaganda talking point.

      @hostage, to have made this outrageous statement in the face of the simple events of history I have outlined above only goes to demonstrate the fallacy of your position.
      You forget how the Peel commission recommended the incorporation of the Arab part of western Palestine into Transjordan rather than its constitution as an independent state. Your legal platitude

      modern international law is based upon the principle that sovereignty resides in the people of a territory

      does nothing to alter political reality.
      For some perspective turn the clock forward a couple of years to Black September, the Jordanian civil war that began in September 1970 and raged for 9 months.
      You can play your legalistic gymnastic games with your pusillanamous remarks but at the end of the day you cannot get past the intractables - refer link to meforum.org

  • A Jew's dead dog has more rights than a Bedouin in the Negev
    • The ad hoc assemblies of tin and cardboard huts are what they live in now AFTER the Israeli Govt razed their dwellings.

      @talknic, this statement demonstrates that you prefer propaganda to the facts. The Bedouin housing scattered right across the Negev is sub-standard ramshackle accommodation - you can't tell me that ALL the Bedouin dispersed across the breadth of the desert are now living in accommodation that replaces what they had before.
      70% of the Bedouin live in seven permanent townships, and the remainder in illegal homes spread over hundreds of thousands of dunams (these scattered Bedouin localities are referred to as the Bedouin “dispersal”).
      The Israeli authorities have barely made a dent on this vast 'dispersal' of their nomadic communities in the desert.
      I could contrast the glitzy aparments that you find on Fifth Avenue with the poverty and destitution you see in the Bronx but that only proves that the world comprises both rich and poor.
      @xanadou, your Nazi-inspired anti-Jewish prejudices speak for how contemptuous your views are.

    • It is totally uneconomic to provide electricity, running water, sanitation, paved roads and medical facilities to a raft of unrecognized Bedouin villages dotted all over the Negev desert.

      They are “unrecognized” because they are ad hoc assemblies of tin and cardboard huts. There are dozens of these encampments you can see strung out along the highway, and the issues of pollution, environmental destruction and sheer unsightliness are immediately evident.

      Those who constructed the pet cemetery paid for it - the Bedouin cannot expect to remain in their hovels and be provided gratis with expensive facilities and utilities.

  • Krista Tippett puts occupied East Jerusalem in Israel
    • Pre-emptive strikes against an aggressor are justifiable - refer link to e-ir.info
      "Israel and the six day war June 5th 1967 is a chief example of pre-emptive force which was, according to the UN Charter, justified. Why? Because the threats were incontestably imminent. Egypt and other Arab states began moving troops to the Israeli borders, occupying the Sinai Peninsula, the west bank and Gaza strip. This was a clear strategy to surround Israel and consequently was a clear threat to the freedom of Israel. Israel claimed its attack was defensive in nature and necessary to forestall an Arab invasion." (Ackerman, 2003: 5).
      @sumud, all this guff about the illegality of the settlements in Judaea and Samaria - also opinion.

    • @sumud, you quote from wikipedia (normally a taboo source on Mondoweiss) very selectively, a deceitful activity to say the least. You have also conveniently overlooked the Syrians and Jordanians and their concomitant build up of military force. You don't mention how Nassar proclaimed, "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." Check out the volume of discussion in the paragraphs at wikipedia against "Did Israel plan a war?" and for "Did Egypt plan a war?" Your conclusions pretty quickly dissolve in the face of the reality of the events at the time.
      Professor, Judge Stephen M. Schwebel, past President of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) stated the following facts:
      “The facts of the June 1967 Six Day War demonstrate that Israel reacted defensively against the threat and use of force against her by her Arab neighbors. This is indicated by the fact that Israel responded to Egypt's prior closure of the Straits of Tiran, its proclamation of a blockade of the Israeli port of Eilat, and the manifest threat of the UAR's use of force inherent in its massing of troops in Sinai, coupled with its ejection of United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF). It is indicated by the fact that, upon Israeli responsive action against the UAR, Jordan initiated hostilities against Israel. It is suggested as well by the fact that, despite the most intense efforts by the Arab States and their supporters, led by the Premier of the Soviet Union, to gain condemnation of Israel as an aggressor by the hospitable organs of the United Nations, those efforts were decisively defeated. The conclusion to which these facts lead is that the Israeli conquest of Arab and Arab-held territory was defensive rather than aggressive conquest.”

    • Nasser had no intentions of attacking Israel.

      Al-Jazeera doesn't agree - refer link to aljazeera.com
      Earlier he had made the noises to which Sumud is alluding - link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org
      but whatever Nassar did publicly was his political manoeuvring, his game of deception.

      Would like to get hold of the whole series of 'A Question of Arab Unity' but can only find parts 1 and 2 on youtube.

    • Right on Shuki!
      Dr. Mordechai Kedar affirms brilliantly what we need to know at
      link to youtube.com
      Jerusalem - never once mentioned in the Koran.
      @Philip, you refer to occupied East Jerusalem but in reality it is liberated Jewish Jerusalem, a city saved and restored after Jordan's decrepit occupation.

  • At Sochi Olympics, Israel is in... Europe!
    • @ecru, if I conceded to you that verifiable Jewish history can currently only be dated back to the 6th century BCE, what f...ing difference does that make to the argument?

    • In football most Middle Eastern countries refuse to play Israel, which is contrary to FIFA’s “Say No to Racism” campaign and Article 3 of the FIFA statute, which states that discrimination on account of “ethnic origin, gender, language, religion, politics or any other reason” is punishable by suspension or expulsion.

      Those countries that object to playing against Israel should be expelled from FIFA, which is run by a bunch of mealy-mouthed apologists.

      No doubt this abusive treatment of Israel explains why it is courted in Europe instead of with the demagogues of the Middle East.

      @Maximus, to mention the irrelevancy

      Israel is crap at football

      only demonstrates the rankness of your bias. You didn't hear how Israel U-21 defeated England last year?

    • @bumblebye, please read the article "Guardian’s Andrew Brown ponders the connection between camels & Zionism" at link to cifwatch.com which points out:

      "First, the 21 (putatively erroneous) references to camels in the five books of Moses of course don’t undermine the remaining 79,826 words.

      "Second, Zionism is based not on the literal truth of every word in every Jewish text, but largely on the more than 3,000-year-old Jewish connection to the Land of Israel.

      "Further, modern Zionism was largely a secular movement.

      "Finally, though Brown’s assault on Israel’s legitimacy is arguably among the strangest we’ve ever encountered at this blog, we decided to humor him and set out our ‘crack team of researchers’ on a very peculiar mission to see if we were hasty in mocking the Guardian “journalist”.

      "However, as hard as “they” tried (using the most ‘sophisticated’ research tools), they quite curiously couldn’t find even one single reference to “camels” in Theodor Herzl’s The Jewish State, the transcripts from the first to twelfth Zionist Congresses, Israel’s Declaration of Independence, or Israel’s Basic Law."

      It seems after all bumblebye that all of this proves that you are more than willing to swallow camel shit if it happens to serve your blind, anti-Israel cause.

  • The killing of Odeh Hamad
    • @sumud, you trot out the usual list of anti-Israel criticisms that are
      part of the standard script, whereby Hamas is magically absolved of any responsibility for its actions and its situation.

      The reference to the Warsaw Ghetto is seriously offensive and by going
      along with that obscenity your remarks disqualify yourself from any
      legitimacy. With British Labour MP Yasmin Qureshi having been required to make an apology for an equivalent slur (see link to labourlist.org), I would suggest that to maintain any further semblance of credibility you and your ilk need to do the same.

    • In a statement reported by the BBC
      (link to bbc.co.uk) the Israel
      Defence Forces (IDF) had said:
      "During the past few hours several incidents took place along the security fence with the Gaza Strip.

      "Palestinians caused damage to the northern security fence, fired a mortar shell that hit the Shaar HaNegev regional council, rioted and hurled rocks at soldiers in the northern Gaza Strip, and neared the fence in an attempt to enter Israel.

      "Soldiers attempted to contain these violent events by calling out to the Palestinians but to no avail, and in accordance with the incident used live fire. Several hits were identified."

      Naturally Radad Hamad would say there was no warning given - why believe him? Because he is a Palestinian? Did he take a lie detector test?

      Under the Geneva Conventions, Israel has the duty to ensure the security of Israel and its citizens. In order to fulfill the latter, it may prohibit access to certain areas. Israel is not obliged to sacrifice its territory for the sake of Gazan militants who continue to threaten it with their belligerence.

      BTW, the remark "The troops on site repeatedly tried to distance them...." was not in the article attributed to Amira Hass.

  • Student who exposed 'leftist' teacher is honored at Knesset, while teacher gets violent threats
    • @shingo, of course there aren't direct personal threats being made against anyone on this blog because they would be removed by the moderators.
      But there is plenty of abusive language, hate speech, offensive remarks and the occasional anti-semitism by those who resort to gutter tactics instead of open and honest discussion.

  • Get ready, Kerry will go where no American leader has gone before -- Ben-Ami
    • @ecru, one could make the same kind of statement about Islam, by quoting Turkey's Erdogan

      ... it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that's it.

      Zionism is the liberation movement for the Jewish people and liberal Zionism is only watering down true Zionism to appease the anti-Zionist gangs.

      Appeasement does not work as the opponents of Zionism want nothing less than its eradication, with the concomitant demise of the Jewish people.

  • Israel and apartheid: a response to Hirsh Goodman
    • @shingo, your remarks have no validity as you falsely refute my comments and and present totally fabrications to make your hollow case.
      Firstly the quote you have plucked and bolder "there is no Zionism,
      colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands" is not attributable to Ben Gurion,
      having been made in 1972 by Yoram Bar Porath in Israeli newspaper Yediot Aahronot.
      The quote by Weitz is also perfectly understandable given the predicament the Jews were facing in 1940, with, as I said, a poor deal
      having just emanated from the Peel Commission, Arab anti-semitism on
      the rise across the Arab world and in Palestine and the Holocaust well underway.
      You have said without any basis that the Jews had no intention of sticking to UNGA181, which they had accepted. You forgot to say that the Arabs rejected UNGA181. How could Israel believe any deal could be struck with the Arab nations all ganging up to exterminate it?
      And the ONE quote from Ben Gurion's diary that is actually from 1948
      "We must do everything to insure the Palestinians never do return....The old will die and the young will forget." reflects the mind of a leader who was fighting for Israeli independence against the Arabs who wanted to eliminate the Jews. Do you expect a nation that was to lose 1% of its population in a do or die struggle to be willing to accommodate its enemy?

    • @shingo, the virulent anti-Zionist you are, you have given the sources of your 'quotes' above, but have not commented on their context. Your quotes are those that appear with regularity on the anti-Israel hate sites, quotes from the polemics of Palestinian activist Nur-eldeen
      Masalha.

      Those attributed to Weizmann and Ben Gurion come from the Peel Commission period when the offering was exceedingly ungenerous to the Jews. In other words they represent not a grand plan for conquest, but simply a line or two of spin by Weizman and BG trying to convince the Yishuv to accept the city-state (Bantustan) the Peel commission had proposed.

      In the true spirit of Palestinian activists, desperate to undermine the state of Israel at every opportunity, every single line uttered in the entire lifetime of every Israeli leader is to be hyper-scrutinised
      and quoted out of context even seventy years later!

    • @shingo, the virulent anti-Zionist you are, you have given the sources
      of your 'quotes', but have not commented on their context. Your quotes are those that appear with regularity on the anti-Israel hate sites, quotes from the polemics of Palestinian activist Nur-eldeen Masalha.

      Those attributed to Weizmann and Ben Gurion come from the Peel
      Commission period when the offering was exceedingly ungenerous to the Jews. In other words they represent not a grand plan for conquest, but simply a line or two of spin by Weizman and BG trying to convince the Yishuv to accept the city-state (Bantustan) the Peel commission had proposed.

      In the true spirit of Palestinian activists, desperate to undermine
      the state of Israel at every opportunity, every single line uttered in the entire lifetime of every Israeli leader is to be hyper-scrutinised
      and quoted out of context even seventy years later!

    • @Shingo, so Ben Gurion

      stated openly that the borders were only temporary and that the plan would be unilaterally abolished once the Jewish forces were strong enough

      Source and context of your brazen statement?

  • Kerry's framework according to Friedman and Indyk (Updated: Abbas Weighs In)
    • @eljay, many European and Asian states such as Ireland, Germany,
      Japan, China, Russia, Turkey, Greece, Serbia, and Finland maintain identities based on ethnicity and culture, often providing immigration procedures favoring individuals with ethnic ties to them.
      Israel by being the realization of a home for the Jewish people is only aiming to provide a political, social and culture milieu for Jewish self-determination. There is nothing supremacist about that.
      You may not believe in the concept of Jewish national identity but most Jews do and they have the right to pursue that under the aegis of Zionism.
      If the Palestinians had been willing to accept UNGA 181 and been prepared to live alongside a Jewish state then they would have had a state of their own for the last 66 years. However they have been hoodwinked by their Arab brethren and are paying a huge price for
      their disingenuousness.
      To blame Zionism for the demise of the Palestinians is to play the 'victim' game and not acknowledge the dismal failures of the Palestinian leadership.

    • @talknic, Israel was proclaimed per UNGA resolution 181 as you say, but the Arabs didn't accept the resolution and threatened bloodshed if the United Nations went ahead with its adoption. By defying 181 and going all out with the co-operation of the surrounding Arab nations to defeat the Jews the Arabs brought the Nakba upon themselves. The Arabs did not show any willingness to accept the Jewish presence as they wanted the entire country to be Arab. (Shows how things haven't changed with Abbas indicating his refusal to accept Israel as a Jewish state.) Resolution 181 followed such
      proposals as the Peel Commission (1937); the Woodhead Commission
      (1938); two 1946 proposals that championed a bi-national state. Every scheme since 1922 was rejected by the Arab side, including decidedly pro-Arab ones merely because these plans recognized Jews as a nation and gave the Jewish citizens of Mandate Palestine political representation.
      "The [British] Government of Palestine fear that strife in Palestine will be greatly intensified when the Mandate is terminated, and that the international status of the United Nations Commission will mean little or nothing to the Arabs in Palestine, to whom the killing of Jews now transcends all other considerations.
      Thus, the Commission will be faced with the problem of how to avert certain bloodshed on a very much wider scale than prevails at present. ... The Arabs have made it quite clear and have told the Palestine government that they do not propose to co-operate or to assist the Commission, and that, far from it, they propose to attack and impede its work in every possible way. We have no reason to suppose that they do not mean what they say. Refer United Nations
      Palestine Commission. First Monthly Progress Report to the Security Council. A/AC.21/7, January 29, 1948. See:
      link to mefacts.com.
      Funny how in the late 1990s, more than 50 years after Resolution 181
      was rejected by the belligerent Arab world, Arab leaders suddenly
      recommended to the General Assembly that UN Resolution 181 be resurrected as the basis for a peace agreement.

    • They didn't ask strangers to come and colonize Palestine.

      @talknic, you seem to have a convenient case of amnesia.
      Do you not recall how Emir Feisal spoke in 1919?
      "The Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organization to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate and proper."
      as well as the agreement between Feisal and Weizmann.
      Yet it didn't take long for relations to sour as the Arabs were denied
      their united, independent Arab state because of the selfish, imperial ambitions of the French colonists.

  • Do SodaStream's workers have the right to vote? Roger Waters asks Scarlett Johansson
    • @annie, the 'ancient homeland right' is a paraphrasing of the widely recognised right of the indigenous inhabitants and their descendants of an area to the ownership of the territory there.
      It is no wonder that the Arabophiles at UNESCO have recently attempted to stop an exhibition about the profound historical Jewish ties to Palestine - refer
      link to timesofisrael.com.
      They, like yourself, don't want to give too much publicity to the
      Jews, who have the major claims to Palestine by far. [....]

  • Palestinians living near West Bank SodaStream factory urge Scarlett Johansson to end role with occupation profiteer
    • @talknic, come on now, the antipathy of much of the native Arab population to the Zionists was evident from the turn of the last century. That is what ivri is getting at.
      From the moment that Haj Amin el-Husseini emerged as the leading figure in Palestinian politics at the beginning of the mandate period in 1919, small groups of suicide groups, fedayeen ("one who sacrifices himself"), were organized to terrorize Jews. The first large Arab riots took place in Jerusalem in the intermediary days of Passover, April 1920. The Jewish community was facing the brunt of a fundamental Arab unwillingness to accept them in Palestine.

    • @Sumud, your response (avoiding my questions) is like that of the lawyer who asks the defendant, "When did you stop beating your
      wife?"
      You are entitled to your political opinions as I am to mine, however remarks like yours (and campaigns like BDS) offer no room for discussion, no basis (other than classic left wing fantasies) for reconciliation.

    • Nothing being said to the Palestinian workers who make a living working at the SodaStream factory? Do they support your BDS?

  • Truman always opposed a religious state, but caved to 'fanatical' Zionist lobby
    • @Ron, you have resorted to abusive, dismissive language. You have to do better than that if you want to persuade anybody besides yourself. Your aside to Maimonides is vague and unintelligible.

    • So here is the logic, even according to Bernard Lewis. Antisemitism spiralled dramatically as a result of the arrival of Zionism. Before
      that Arab anti-semitism lay dormant, as there was not a major factor to feed it. As long as Jews behaved appropriately as dhimmis and paid their jizya they were tolerated. They were NEVER given equal status.

      Zionism therefor only unearthed a deep-seated anti-semitism in the Arab population that was fed from Christian sources as these began to pervade Arab society. To blame Zionism for everything is to ignore the fundamental antagonism (non-acceptance) that is expressed from
      within Islam to other religions.
      @Ron, what was so edifying about Maimonides fleeing the fanatical Muslim Almohades in Spain, who offered Jews and Christians the choice of conversion to Islam or death?

    • Jews have always had a secure place in the so-called Arab
      world

      If people continue to trumpet this lie that before Zionism there was no problem between Jews and Arabs then we will get nowhere.
      Martin Gilbert has told the story of the persecution of Jews across the Muslim world throughout history in his book "In Ishmael's House" and you can find what he has said corroborated at
      link to en.wikipedia.org

  • 'NYT' publishes Holocaust trivia on front page
    • no one needs a ‘day‘ to remember the holocaust and no one even needs museums to remember it either

      By corollary Annie no one needs a a day to remember your sacred cow the Nakba and let's not create any museum exhibits about it either. And most of all don't try shoving it down the throats of people for the sake of the 'Palestinian' cause.
      Hypocrisy reigns supreme at Mondoweiss!

  • 'We need rights as refugees': African asylum seeker on why he's marching to Jerusalem
    • Seriously this story is just being used as a vehicle to attack Israel when its immigration policies are in fact no different from other countries. How about some concern about how the Egyptians shoot these refugees in cold blood? How about some outrage about REAL racism in the Arab world?

  • Shared values: Likud member says Prawer Plan akin to what 'Americans did to the Indians'
    • The same as what the Egyptian government did to the Nubian people when it built the Aswan dam and what the Jordanian government did to the Bedouin when they turned Petra into a tourist venue.
      This is the inexorable march of modern civilization.

  • Ari Shavit is hardwired into the Israeli elite—but knows nothing about Palestinians
    • Ari Shavit no doubt is too 'Zionist' for MW sensibilities, but I would
      contend that Allison is too tough on him. You can't expect him to
      be right all the time and I would suggest on fundamentals that Shavit absolutely knows precisely what he is talking about. In his recent book launch I quote an excerpt from the 15:53 mark of his talk that is part of a section that goes from 12:45 - 17:01. Refer
      link to youtube.com
      "Because from the moment they (the Zionist settlers) set foot in that
      country and they did not see the others and the others did not accept them, conflict was inherent.
      I'm an adamant anti-settlement guy and we'll get into that. I'm an adamant anti-occupation guy, but anyone telling you that the conflict
      is about the settlements or occupation, forgive me the rough language, does not have a clue what he is talking about. The conflict is about the fact the Jews came to a land that was Moslem. The conflict is about the fact that we built Jewish sovereignty, Jewish democratic sovereignty, which is a new concept we introduced to the region. We've created that among Arab nations that do not have tolerance for non-Arabs. The conflict is about that the Palestinians do not to this day, do not forgive us for coming there and they have their reasons and I understand their reasons, but this is what the conflict is about and if one wants to address the problem of the settlements and the occupation one has to be put this in context."

  • Interview with Dr. Haidar Eid: 'The Palestinian struggle is not about independence -- it is about liberation'
    • This guy Eid just blows my socks off. He pontificates from his ivory tower about what he wants and believes, not once mentioning Hamas and the obvious role they play in preventing any peace or reconciliation with Israel. We get to hear once again the standard anti-Israel diatribe with all the usual jargon and misrepresentations.
      He blithely says that Zionism is an

      exclusionary ideology that doesn’t accept the “Other.”

      coming from an Islamic state that is pushing unashamedly for Islamic supremacy and domination.
      He suggests that

      Israel defines itself as the state of Jews only

      conveniently forgetting that more than 20% of Israel's population is Arab with the same full civil and democratic rights as Jews have.
      The blind hypocrisy of this man!

  • The Siege of the Tel Aviv bus station
    • Quite frankly Walid you don't know what you are talking about.
      The immigrants coming to Australia and Israel are illegal immigrants and both countries are taking very similar measures to stop the flow of such immigrants. To call these people 'refugees' when you are speaking about the Israel context and to refer to them as 'illegals' when talking about Australia is very dishonest.

      the noise was enough to create interest

      Of course many Africans are attempting to get into Israel as in their region Israel offers the best opportunity for a better life.
      Israel was very successful with its Operation Moses followed by
      Operation Solomon. Today Israel celebrates the out-of-Africa contribution to its culture
      - see link to haaretz.com

  • AIPAC plays the long game on new Iran sanctions
    • @Shingo, you do this all the time - pronouncements based on nothing
      but your own opinion

      That’s provably false. 22 Arabs states have not only toned
      down their rhetoric

      Where's your proof?
      I told you what Iran's leaders are saying.
      I posted a few months ago about this virulent anti-semitic TV series
      on Egyptian TV - see
      link to mondoweiss.net
      Lately Muslim Arab anti-semitism has even been suggesting that the
      evil Zionists have been co-opting animals to wreak havoc upon them!
      See link to chersonandmolschky.com
      So please Shingo substantiate or shut up.

    • If Israel is serious about advocating a non-nuclear Middle East it needs to put up or shut up

      Israel is not interested in capitulating to a bellicose Iran or
      getting overrun by the Arab world that surrounds it. The simple fact
      of the fact at the moment is that Israel requires its nuclear capability as a deterrent against the host of countries in its vicinity who would take any opportunity to destroy it.
      If all these nations were to start to tone down their rhetoric then at
      least the idea starts to become a possibility, but not when Iran for
      example keeps making these kinds of utterances:

      BBC translation of Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei's speech to Basij commanders on Nov. 20 (at
      link to leader.ir):
      Khamenei: "We Fight Against the Arrogance. The U.S. Is on the Top of
      the Arrogance in the World"
      "We are against the arrogance. We fight against the arrogance.
      Arrogance is a word in the Koran. It is used in the Koran for people
      like Pharaoh, malevolent groups which are hostile to truth and
      righteousness....The government of the United States of America is on
      the top of the arrogance in the world." [The audience repeatedly
      chants: "Death to America."]

      "The Zionist regime is doomed to oblivion. The Zionist regime is an
      imposed regime which is formed by force. None of the formations or
      creatures which are formed by force is durable, and neither is this
      one....Unfortunately, some European countries cringe before this creature which is not worthy of the name of a human being, before
      these leaders of the Zionist regime, who look like beasts and who
      cannot be called human."

      Much of the optimism that Iran is sincere in its desire to reach a
      nuclear accord is based on the assumption that Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei backs President Hassan Rouhani's diplomatic initiative. But the notion that Khamenei's call for "heroic flexibility" equates with endorsement of a diplomatic solution misreads Khamenei.

      As translated over at American Enterprise Institute’s “Iran Tracker,”
      (refer link to irantracker.org),
      Khamenei shows that what he meant by that term and the conclusions drawn by Obama and Kerry are two very separate things:

      “Some interpreted ‘heroic flexibility’ as letting go of the system’s
      principles and ideals. Some enemies on this basis claimed the retreat of the Islamic system from principles while these claims are contrary to reality and are an incorrect understanding… Heroic flexibility means an artful maneuver and utilizing various methods to achieve the various goals and ideals of the Islamic system.” Refer link to commentarymagazine.com

      We shall see....

  • The false analogy of Syria and Palestine
    • Hamas, the regime that rules Gaza with an Islamic fist, does not even
      warrant mention in Jonathan Cook's discussion and therein lies the
      deep fallacy of his analysis. To not even be considering the Hamas
      government as bearing any responsibility for the demise of the
      population in Gaza is nothing short of ludicrous.

      Gaza is not like Syria because Palestinians live under a
      belligerent occupation, not in a unified, if failing state run by a
      dictator

      There mightn't be a sole dictator running the show in Gaza but it is
      pretty apparent who is in absolute control. Where are those defenders
      of Hamas who kept on trumpeting the validity of Hamas, because they
      won power in 'democratic' elections. How long ago was that? January 2006 - nearly 8 years ago!

  • (Updated) Senator Chuck Schumer promises more Iran sanctions, vows to 'defeat' Arab world and Palestinians
    • Four replies to my suggestion about the totally lop sided nature of MW with one facetious response exhorting me to make a submission to set
      the balance. Now seriously ...
      As I suggested the way that Abbas' speaks without acknowledging the
      entity of the Jewish people is what one might expect from a joker who did his Ph.D in Holocaust denial. He is operating in the same vein today, this time with 'Jewish people denial'.
      Who is he really negotiating with when it comes to resolving the I/P conflict? Not the 20% Arab population who probably think he is a half wit. Of course with the Jews, who both in Israel and in the diaspora are the ones that have a vested interest in the fate of their country Israel.
      This is the discussion point I have raised and anybody who mentions
      stuff about Israel being the occupying power etc etc is merely deflecting from the point I have made. Of course the Israeli people exist as such, but in terms of the negotiations and the conflict the argument is between the Palestinian people, many of whom are Israeli, and the Jewish people. If Abbas might ever mention the Jewish people, the cat would be out of the bag and Abbas would be a goner. It was bad enough when he surrendered ground on the issue of the right of return.

    • Alex Kane, the proverbial fly on the wall. Never a report from the
      inner circle of the pro-Palestinian camp, who seem to be exempt from
      scrutiny with whatever they say.
      With no focus on the rhetoric coming from the other side the balance
      of thinking on MW is way lop-sided. Iran can be trusted and is touted as the poor victim of Zionism and American imperialism, avoiding any judicious criticism.
      Consider link to bicom.org.uk where there
      is some analysis of deliberate Palestinian incitement, but this
      doesn't seem to concern MW. It is too subtle it seems. Nobody has the
      incisiveness or even plain honesty to recognise how Abbas "... never
      says ‘the Jewish people’. In this speech, he was talking about a
      culture of peace between the Israeli people, and the Palestinian
      people. For him, there is no Jewish people; there is only an Israeli
      people. All of Israel’s citizens are the Israeli people. By that, he
      avoids saying that there is something called ‘the Jewish people’, because in his mind there is no such thing."
      If those strident voices around here really wanted a decent solution
      to this conflict they would not be ignoring deeply inciteful remarks
      like Abbas' and not be concentrating solely on the words of pro-Israel supporters.

  • Jewish worshipers seeking access to Haram al Sharif could trigger next intifada, Tibi says
    • @Hostage, the newspaper article I read that refers to the discovery of
      coins at the site of the Western Wall mentions the date of the coins
      being after the death of Herod. Yet we know construction would have
      continued after Herod's death and the temple was not actually
      destroyed until 75 years later.

      Furthermore the article says about the Western Wall, "It has been a
      site for Jewish prayer and pilgrimage for centuries, the earliest
      source mentioning Jewish attachment to the site dating from the 4th
      century
      ."

      Refer to link to dailymail.co.uk

      Notwithstanding hypothetical alternative theories the common consensus is that the Muslims had the effrontery to build a mosque on top of the ruins of the Second Temple. It is not hard to understand why religious Jews don't want to be dhimmis any more.

      Islamic religious triumphalism/supremacy is the root of the problem and could provide a convenient pretext for staging another intifada.

  • Aberrational Judaism
    • When Muslims comes to the end of Islam, as inevitably they do when they are free to vote with their feet, they have few places to land except the colonial nationality they inherit or a voracious modernity they seek shelter within.

      What is Ellis trying to say here?
      Aberrational Judaism and aberrational Christianity but no aberrational Islam?
      I think MW should give Ellis the boot - he does nothing but bloat discussion with confusion and gobbledygook.
      As for his exhortations about interfaith dialogue, if you going to
      follow his advice and park such a delicate interchange as interfaith
      in the pro-Palestinian stable you will totally destroy the viability
      of interfaith, which already is considered by many as a complete farce anyway.

  • 'Pro-Life? Pro-Israel?': Israeli anti-abortion organization reaches out for US support to fight demographic war in the Jewish state
    • @Hostage, I look forward to you learning how to count back hundreds of years. A British Office Arabist opinion piece that assumes that all of the groups you mentioned had been settled in Palestine for centuries proves nothing - it is just based on hearsay and conjecture. People speaking opportunistically with political voices, not connected to deep historical roots to any particular location. What Palestine? The Palestine that is Syria or Jordan today?

      From wikipedia on the Palestinian people (refer
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people): "The historical record
      continued to reveal an interplay between 'Arab' and 'Palestinian'
      identities and nationalism. The idea of a unique Palestinian state
      separated out from its Arab neighbors was at first rejected by
      Palestinian representatives. The First Congress of Muslim-Christian
      Associations (in Jerusalem, February 1919), which met for the purpose of selecting a Palestinian Arab representative for the Paris Peace Conference, adopted the following resolution: "We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic,
      natural, economic and geographical bonds."

    • Shingo, the champion of bluff and bluster.

      No, it makes a number of assumptions based on spurious logic.

      Spurious logic - please explain.

      omits the fact that Arabs in Palestine were excluded from this economy

      Gottheil has a table in his article where he contrasts the standard of
      living enjoyed by Arab Palestinians to the standards in other Middle
      East economies. As Bachi stated, "The success of these beginnings of
      modernization could not have been lost on Arab Palestinians nor on
      Arabs living in adjacent economies."
      Notwithstanding the separation between Jews and Arabs in the economy, the overall economy was obviously on the move.
      I reiterate your failure to address the bland fact that

      You don’t not have any figures or substantive argument to prove otherwise

      And this Shingoism

      It’s pretty clear that the numbers that went unreported
      would have been a small percentage

      is nothing more than your opinion. And in the next one, which academic circles are you speaking of? Source and reference please?

      Gottheil’s arguments are dead on arrival, which is why it
      is not considered legitimate in academic circles

    • @Hostage I eagerly await you elaborating on your statement “most (Arab inhabitants) had already been there for hundreds of years”.

    • Women in the IDF are

      jokingly referred to as “mattresses” and coffee getters

      Please refer to this article at
      link to israelity.com which is the only
      place where I could find such a flippant reference to women in the IDF
      mentioned. No doubt the viper Blumenthal has cottoned on to such a
      reference that is typically used in jest and twisted it into his own
      poisonous remarks aiming to demonstrate a misogynist attitude by men
      in the IDF towards women. No doubt Rusty Pipes you are happy to imbibe
      Blumenthal's undiluted propaganda without questioning it.

    • The Gottheil study makes a number of key points that strongly suggest
      there was significant illegal Arab immigration that has never been
      properly accounted for. Gottheil's conclusion may sound ambiguous, but his analysis is based on rational conjecture and economic analysis.
      Hostage, you have a problem with imputation theory? To demean
      Gottheil's argument because it comes from the mind of an economist only goes to demonstrate your naked bias and contempt for a particular
      profession. You don't not have any figures or substantive argument
      to prove otherwise - all you can do is try to dismantle the argument
      of the other side offering nothing consequential in its place other
      than your own polemic. Hostage, what reference are you quoting when you say that "most (Arab inhabitants) had already been there for hundreds of years" - not the pro-Palestinian propaganda handbook?
      McCarthy is readily dispatched by Gottheil noting that firstly McCarthy

      contends that even if the illegal immigrants were
      unreported on entry, their deaths in Palestine would have been
      registered. So too, he argues, would their children born in Palestine.
      Deriving estimates based on such registrations, he arrives at this
      conclusion: immigration was minimal. But he provides no evidence to show that these supposed registrations of births and deaths were actually made

      and secondly

      McCarthy's numbers are based, in part, on Bachi's
      reporting of 900 illegal Arab immigrants per year over the period
      1931-45. But McCarthy misrepresents what Bachi's estimate is meant to
      show. Bachi is careful to identify his 900-per-year illegal Arab
      immigration estimate as only those discovered by the mandatory
      authorities. Illegal Arab immigration that went undetected and
      unreported is not included.

      If you read the full article by Gottheil there is a strong case made,
      stronger than any opposing case, to support the conclusion I made
      before. Gottheil expresses it this way

      it provides strong circumstantial evidence that the
      illegal Arab immigration into Palestine, like that within Palestine,
      was of consequence as well

      Without any properly considered counter to Gottheil's allbeit
      non-specific conclusions they still stand as the best estimate of what
      happened.

    • This issue of Arab immigration into Palestine cannot be dismissed without looking at the facts - usually too much effort for propagandists. The situation is not black and white (it never usually is), but the tendency always by the Mondoweiss rank and file is to simplify the facts (too complex for the typical pro-Palestinian activist to digest), so that there can be no rational argument or discussion.
      Robbins has used this kind of tactic - she thinks that by just attributing my remarks to those of Joan Peters (who I have not read), a discredited source in these precincts, that my argument is summarily dismissed. Now that is a disingenuous tactic, but hardly unexpected. American lets rip with some hostile, unsupported opiniation. Shingo fires in some of his typical bluster - he reckons if he can assert something strongly enough that his bluster will do the job of keeping back the 'hasbrats'. Resorting to such demeaning or abusive language seriously diminishes the credibility of the exponent of such
      derogatoriness. Hostage does somewhat better by actually quoting a third party reference. However the UNSCOP report he has mentioned did NOT deal at all with the topic of Arab immigration to Palestine, it is totally
      irrelevant to the current discussion.
      A comprehensive discussion of the subject of Arab immigration to
      Palestine can be found in a seminal paper by Fred M. Gottheil, professor in the department of economics, University of Illinois - "The Smoking Gun: Arab
      Immigration into Palestine, 1922-1931" at link to meforum.org which points out that the situation is not black and white.

      I quote the conclusions from Gottheil paper:

      Therein lies the ideological warfare concerning claims to territorial inheritance and national sovereignty. Contrary to McCarthy's findings or wishes, there is every reason to believe that consequential immigration of Arabs into and within Palestine occurred during the Ottoman and British mandatory periods. Among the most compelling arguments in support of such immigration is the universally acknowledged and practiced linkage between regional economic disparities and migratory impulses.

      The precise magnitude of Arab immigration into and within Palestine is, as Bachi noted, unknown. Lack of completeness in Ottoman registration lists and British Mandatory censuses, and the immeasurable illegal, unreported, and undetected immigration during both periods make any estimate a bold venture into creative analysis. In most cases, those venturing into the realm of Palestinian demography—or other demographic analyses based on very crude data—acknowledge its limitations and the tentativeness of the conclusions that may be drawn.

      So at the end of the day we must conclude there was significant
      illegal Arab immigration into Palestine alongside Jewish immigration - the exact numbers however are difficult to assess.

    • if Jewish women weren’t pressured to be “mattresses”

      If Rusty Pipes hadn't uttered his contemptuous sexist phrase then I
      wouldn't have been pressured to tell him what a sod he is. Israel
      hardly denigrates women as they participate fully in the IDF. Your
      vile, ill-considered remarks Rusty Pipes aren't worth the cyber
      storage they're embedded on.

    • @German Lefty, and the significant Arab immigration to Palestine leading up to 1948 that was taking advantage of the Zionists revitalisation of the country was that not opportunistic (disgusting using your phraseology) demographics?

  • Why Israel wanted Arafat dead
    • And suspicion falls squarely on Israel

      if you happen to be in the habit of blaming Israel for everything. If you
      want to apply some real logic you would pay serious attention to the
      Russian report that was inconclusive.
      To brazenly claim

      it should be evidence enough to convict
      Israel in the court of world opinion

      is to echo the same bigoted sentiments that come from the anti-Israel lobby all the
      time.
      The killer is just as likely to have come from within the Palestinian
      Authority, who were jockeying for power when he died. His wife Suha accused his aides of plotting his demise - that was her first
      reaction.

  • 'The goal is to isolate Iran'--Jamal Abdi breaks down Israel's opposition to the Geneva talks
  • Oscar hopeful 'Bethlehem' yet another film that celebrates Israeli victimhood
    • Are the moderators permitted to censor posts made on Mondoweiss?

    • Naaman seems to have wanted to see a different film than the one that
      was co-written by an Israeli Jew and an Israeli Arab. Naaman skips
      over the fact that this film is actually a working collaboration (sic)
      between a Jew and an Arab. She by this glaring omission gives us the
      false impression that this film follows a pattern where "Israeli
      cinema managed to turn its security industry personnel into the
      victims, rather than first, and foremost, the perpetrators of
      violence".

      Waked says (refer
      link to haaretz.com )
      "The cowriter of the award-winning Israeli film 'Bethlehem' on why he painted such a dark portrait of Palestinian society.....working on 'Bethlehem' was a 'corrective experience' that gave him a chance to present a close-up portrait of Palestinian life in the West Bank warts and all. Corruption, extortion, betrayal and internecine rivalries are rife in the film as the second intifada waned around 2004-2005."

      The subject of collaborators is central to the film and as stated by
      Waked is very painful in Palestinian society. He says, “You don’t know
      if you can speak freely to someone you meet in a café, in school or
      even in your own family, because they might report what you say to
      Israeli authorities. So it’s a natural theme for a film depicting the
      day-to-day lives of Palestinians.”

      Waked is unfazed by the attack by Gideon Levy whom he suggests totally misread the film. He said “I don’t think it portrays one side or the other as all bad. As a Palestinian, I would not be capable of demonizing my own people.” He defends Badawi in the film "as being 'a man of integrity, an uncompromising patriot' whose sometimes vicious acts are motivated not by greed or lust for power, but by his total devotion to the struggle against Israel."

      Naaman seems to think that if the director Adler had wanted “to
      present the story of the triangle” that he should have done it
      differently. Obviously Naaman had a personal preference for a
      cinematic triangle with her specific dimensions, but that would have
      been another film and not one that showed the intriguing interplay
      between the main protagonists in Bethlehem.

      Not wanting to spoil the film for those who haven't seen it, Naaman
      fails to point out the failings of Razi who is not painted as a 'good'
      Israeli by any means - lying to his superiors and using the
      Palestinian boy Sanfur in a completely opportunistic way. In film it is not easy to depict the dilemma that would have faced Razi by his duplicitous actions, but most certainly we the audience, contrary to Naaman's opinion, are challenged to "contemplate the context of his actions and decisions".

      Waked states, “The viewpoint of the film is that of the Palestinians
      themselves, whom we spent months interviewing in-depth, in order to write the screenplay. It is a very precise reflection of reality,” he
      insists. “So if Gideon Levy doesn’t like what he saw in the film,
      maybe it’s because he doesn’t like the reality.”

      In fact, Waked regards the “failure to take an overt political stand”
      as one of the film’s attributes. So much for Naaman's desperate
      yearning to see some footage about the occupation.

      “Changing reality was not our goal," Waked said. "But the film has
      been viewed widely and is generating a debate in Israel. If it enables people to grasp that we are embroiled in a lose-lose situation that must change, then I would consider that an achievement.” Yet again Naaman missed the mark – the film does depict the reality of the conflict with a strong sense of realism. However it seems that she
      didn’t get served the sort of reality that matches her biased
      appetite.

  • Right wing finds new way to dismiss Blumenthal: liken him to Dostoyevsky
    • @Shingo, for you anybody who compares the Israelis (Zionism) to the Nazis (Nazism) has got to be the greatest. Blumenthal does just that, analogizing the behavior of Israeli Jews to that of the war criminals who led Nazi Germany. You get your 'I hate Israel handbook’ so you can maintain the flow of crude remarks like this one of yours at link to mondoweiss.net. In fact these vile gutter tactics are what bring the Palestinian cause into disrepute.

  • Palestinian Brit trying to volunteer in Bethlehem interrogated for five hours at Ben Gurion airport
    • Spot on Roha.
      Ms Anonymous is not a Palestinian - it is a place where one of her parents has roots - that's all. She calls Palestine her homeland because it is politically convenient. My father was Polish, but Poland is not my homeland. The Israeli authorities have every right to thoroughly check people like her as many turn out to be troublemakers - any government is entitled to take all necessary steps to screen out potential provocateurs. She speaks like one:

      the IDF dehumanizing people every day

      Maybe Ms Anonymous will give us some specific details next time she's writing some agitprop for Mondoweiss.

  • Jerusalem gov't invites you to watch knights battle in the occupied city
    • @shmuel, why bother to invite Palestinians to participate? They won't anyway because they get classified as collaborators by their own and furthermore it is against their policy of anti-normalization.

  • Reports say peace process is 'fantasy' and 'worst' since Oslo-- but blame falls on Israel this time
    • Like wild dogs champing at the bit - wanting so much for the talks to fail.

      When Israelis and Palestinians renewed peace negotiations, they agreed on only one thing: No talking about the talks.
      In September Israel complained to the United States of alleged Palestinian leaks that violated the agreement and aimed to pressure Israel. Read link to articles.latimes.com

      This disclosure of inside information by the Palestinian side is a deliberate effort to undermine the talks. If they can't get what they want they'll destroy the peace process as they have done time and time again.

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