Commenter Profile

Total number of comments: 85 (since 2011-06-12 04:56:51)

I am a University lecturer, with a long term interest in pacifism, Tolstoy-ian 'anarchism' and peace in the Middle East with full justice for Palestine.

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  • Chomsky says 'Snowden should be honored' for 'telling Americans what the government was doing'
    • Is Snowden for real, or just a farce ?

      M'Weiss readers really should check out the following video before they dismiss it.

      link to youtube.com

      ...did Snowden tell us anything new? For all his posturing about 'spilling the beans' giving us the details about the US secrets that are going to change the whole game, he STILL hasn't told us anything WE DIDN'T ALREADY KNOW.

      I am still waiting for him to tell us what he found out from all his diligent spying.

      All he tells us is that the NSA, American power, google et al are spying on us, with the assistance of the UK...

      Well, no sh*t Sherlock...

      Who'd a thunk it...

      No -- I will believe Snowden when he actually tells us something.

    • Snowden has told us NOTHING we didn't already know. Even in mainstream society, people have known for a long time we are all being spied on : everyone I meet, everyone I work with,from the admin to the mothers and housewives, to the workaday golf-playing squares and drones, even those with absolutely no interest in politics whatsoever -- they have all been aware of the US/UK spying strategies.

      So -- can anyone on M'Weiss tell me ANYTHING new that Snowden has told us?

      He's not for real. Putin know it, which is why he distanced himself from him as soon as possible. The Chinese know it too, and were glad to be rid of him. The South American states initially showed an interest, but that has lessened as the penny has dropped.

      For all Snowden's posturing and publicising, he has told us NOTHING, ZILCH, ZERO.

  • Dissecting IDF propaganda: The numbers behind the rocket attacks
    • JMartin writes above, “While we’re discussing the propaganda behind these rocket attacks why don’t we discuss the possibility that these Gaza rockets are themselves pure propaganda. Why don’t we talk about the possibility that at least some of these Gaza rockets are Israeli false flags intended to give Israel the provocation/excuse they need to conduct their attacks on Gaza.”

      Yes, I agree — I have thought the same myself — how many are really rocket attacks from Hamas, and how many are false flags from Israelis hidden among the Palestinian population? After all, planting Jewish agents in Palestinian territories would be so easy — loads of Israelis are Arab Jews, and have the same apearance as the Christian and Muslim Palestinians, and loads of Arab Jews ( Mizrahim) speak fluent Arabic too. It would be so easy to do.

      Just think for a moment — if you knew that smashing a huge hornets nest would bring very little benefit to you, but would certainly bring massive harm upon you and all those you loved dearly — would you be mad and stupid enough to do it? In the exact same way, if you were a Palestinian, and you knew that sending a home made rocket to Israel , may possibly kill or injure a handful of Israelis — but would bring untold numbers of catastrophic casualties on your own people — would you just go ahead and do it?

      Think about it — it just does not make sense.

      I agree with JMartin — I’d wager lots of these Hamas rockets are Israeli false flags.

    • JMartin writes above, "While we’re discussing the propaganda behind these rocket attacks why don’t we discuss the possibility that these Gaza rockets are themselves pure propaganda. Why don’t we talk about the possibility that at least some of these Gaza rockets are Israeli false flags intended to give Israel the provocation/excuse they need to conduct their attacks on Gaza."

      Yes, I agree -- I have thought the same myself -- how many are really rocket attacks from Hamas, and how many are false flags from Israelis hidden among the Palestinian population? After all, planting Jewish agents in Palestinian territories would be so easy -- loads of Israelis are Arab Jews, and have the same apearance as the Christian and Muslim Palestinians, and loads of Arab Jews ( Mizrahim) speak fluent Arabic too. It would be so easy to do.

      Just think for a moment -- if you knew that smashing a huge hornets nest would bring very little benefit to you, but would certainly bring massive harm upon you and all those you loved dearly -- would you be mad and stupid enough to do it? In the exact same way, if you were a Palestinian, and you knew that sending a home made rocket to Israel , may possibly kill or injure a handful of Israelis -- but would bring untold numbers of catastrophic casualties on your own people -- would you just go ahead and do it?

      Think about it -- it just does not make sense.

      I agree with JMartin -- I'd wager lots of these Hamas rockets are Israeli false flags.

  • Rebranding Israel
    • To add, I will say that Israel is NOT the land of your forefathers -- Jews are not a race , Jews are not a nation.Your forefathers were probably from Krakow or Kiev, not Palestine. Shlomo Sand's research proves what we all knew anyway -- that Jews are not a race group.

      Not only that, Israel was planned and settled by EUROPEAN Zionists,from Germany, Austria, and Poland, all of whom were resolutely secular, with no interest at all in the Jewish religion anyway.

      Jews are -- just like Muslims, Catholics and Buddhists -- a religious group and sometimes, they are an identity grouping, but they are obviously not a nation or race. Compare a Jew from Ethiopia or Yemen, with their coal black, almost purple black skin, and African and Arab features and hair, and a Jew from Poland or Lithuania, with their fine hair, fair skin, blonde or even ginger hair and European facial features -- don't tell me they all have the same ancestors and forefathers in Israel.

      Saying as you do, that all Jews are orginally from Israel and implying that is the land of all your forefathers, is exactly as false, absurd and inaccurate as saying all Muslims all over the world, from China, Indonesia and Turkey, are originally all from Saudi becuase that is the birthplace of Islam, or, it is as false as saying all Buddhists are from India, or,for that matter, as false as saying all Christians are from Nazareth becuase that was Jesus' origin.

      Jews are a people of disparate origin and 'race' -- just like Muslims and Buddhists -- and all Jews do not go back ethnically to ancient Israel.
      In fact, Shlomo Sand's research shows that it is highly likely that hundred of years ago, many of the ancient Jews and Israelites in the land we now know as Israel, converted to Christianity, and then, converted to Islam.

      And you know what that means, don't you -- it means that it is far more likely that the present day Christian and Muslim Palestinians of Gaza and Nablus and Jenin are far, far more likely to be descended from the real ancient Jews of the area, than are the present day European Jewish settlers from Brooklyn and Lithuania.

      That is the truth that you can't handle.

    • Yawn, what a long list of 'what-a-bout-ery' -- some of what you have written about other religions, other conflicts may well be partly true -- but in no way does that excuse a lot of Polish, Ukranian, Latvia, Lithuanian, Russian and Austrian Jews, with no connection whatsoever to the land of Palestine ( besides in their imagination/religious narratives) turning up in 1948, and expelling 750,000 of the local people from their land, people who had lived there for hundreds and hundreds of years.

      Now THAT is what we are talking about -- very simple. You can talk all you want about other countries, and and other conflicts -- none of that makes what European Jews did in 1948 ok. None of what you wrote can possibly justify a Jew from Krakow or Kiev, or Addis Ababa or Benghazi or Moscow or Paris, taking land away from the local peoples who have been there for countless generations.

      Now you process that Lorna, because that is the truth that you and your European settler friends from Krakow and Brooklyn and Moscow can't handle.

      If you prefer, or if it makes you feel better, you can go on and on and on about 'honour killings' in some small Muslim community in the North of England, or you can go on and on about one African tribe killing another -- but it does not, for one single second, in some kind of evil check and balance game,make what the European Jews did in Palestine ok.

    • Mayhem, Israel does a great enough job at delegitimising and undermining itself, and making itself look awful -- it doesn't need anyone outside to make it look so.

    • American, agreed with that list, but couldn't most of those be applied to most governments from 'developed' countries ?

      For sure, UK matches most of 'em.

      And in the face of such creeping disempowerment, ( A ) most of the UK population are lulled to sleep, so they would be under the illusion -- like the Americans -- that they are shining examples of total freedom and peacful democracy, or,

      ( B) other UK citizens -- like Americans -- are so drunk on cheap alcohol and dope that they are blissfully ( self ) excluded from any debate on the issues that matter anyway.

      Then,( C) there are the citizens who do know what is going on, but are powerless to do anything about their gradual disempowerment. And the whole damn system is so chamelion like, and elastic, that it can withstand blows to its exterior image anyway, as witnessed by the completely easy going smug self stasified response of Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell, when openly confronted and faced with their crimes by protestors attempting citizens arrest etc. In fact, they just turn such acts to their own advantage, saying it is 'proof' of how 'open and free' our 'democracy' truly is.The same can be seen in the utter contempt that Condie Rice showed for Code Pink's impressive demos against her.

      Then there are ( D ) the random acts of frustrated, directionless anger, such as the burning and looting riots in London last year -- the system simply does not care-- it is rich enough to stand the losses to property, and the faceless bureaucrats are cold hearted enough not to care one bit if 'the plebian class' destroy their own neighbourhoods and mug and rob from each other.

      The ruling class are above it all and impervious to it.

      Hold tight for the new reversion to the kinds of 'serf/master' relations we last had with the state and the powers in the 1800s and early 1900s -- it is going to be a rough ride.

      Hold tight.

    • Phil writes ; "The next day in Brooklyn, I asked an anti-Zionist friend whether it is possible to rebrand Israel as a fascist country. He considered the idea and nodded."

      Ze'ev Sternhell, leading scholar on the roots and evolution of fascism, has been over and over the debate,many times, most recently with Uri Avnery, and I quote, "(T)he positions of Professor Ze'ev Sternhell indeed stand out sharply against the darkness of the sky. He warns against Israeli fascism. This week, Israeli fascists laid a pipe-bomb at the entrance of his apartment and he was lightly injured.The choice of victim seems surprising at first. But the perpetrators knew what they were doing."

      Read here -- link to zope.gush-shalom.org

  • A debate about the two-state-solution with Norman Finkelstein
    • American, well said there, and clearly, that is why American neo realists are so relevant to the debate here -- because American neo realists know very well that idealists have to be part of the debate if we are to achieve anything at all -- that is obviously why men like Mearsheimer and Walt constantly pay constant, respectful attention to what men like Finkelstein,Israel Shahak, Mondoweiss, and other idealist sources have to say.

      The cold hearted bastards in power in USA/Germany/France/Israel/Russia and the puppet Gulf states will lead us to hell if they are allowed to -- idealists and intelligent neo realists are the voice of sanity.

    • Pilgrim Soul said : "But is the dialogue about attitudes, or about what Israel will do? The problem is that Israel’s political class and its proxies in the US may not want to think rationally, do not want solutions, do not want a settlement... what they really want is destruction, I’m afraid. Historically, such things have happened before. "

      Exactly right -- not forgetting too, amongst Israel's founding ideologues were men like Jabotinsky and others, who were inspired by fascism and Mussolini.

      "The real question is not what good people like Finkelstein and Phil want, and the enormous mental energy they exert to imagine their noble objectives."

      Exactly right -- the 'facts on the ground' as Sharon, Ben Gurion and others showed, were established by sheer violence,racial contempt, and cunning, conniving evil, not by Jewish intellects and gentile voices of conscience, either inside or outside Israel -- all voices of conscience have been repressed or marginalised.

    • Sumud wrote : "I agree with you about the racism in Israeli society but I’m not sure that can’t be changed."

      But how can it be changed? It seems to be derived from religious supremacist separatist ideas ( see the behaviour of Orthodox who do not wish to be tainted by anything or anyone that just might be 'non Jewish' ) and by plain old colonial racism, and, also it is informed by deep rooted tribal reactions imported from the places that Israelis immigrated from, like Ukraine and Poland (and a look at the daily papers shows us what the Ukrainian and Poles think of 'non pure' foreigners entering their space ). Beyond a fringe element of Israeli anarchists and peaceniks, I can't see see Israelis ever accepting non Jews.

      Sumud : "I agree with you also Israel being the leading world power. As long as the US has it’s back, that is the case. But, US power is in decline, and I have to believe there would be *some* red line that would cause the US to withdraw their support for Israel. Can it really be that American politicians are so spineless and beholden to the Israel lobby that they can start exterminating Palestinians en masse and Obama will merely say “that isn’t helpful”…?"

      But I can't see there is any red line at all; I can't see that US would ever withdraw support, and even if they did, the European govts would offer support, and even if that were withdrawn, Israel has enough collosal power in its own right to continue meddling, inflicting collosal suffering and oppression in the region and beyond.

      Sumud : " For all their bluff and bluster, I don’t believe Israelis have what it takes to endure long periods as a pariah nation under sanctions."

      But would the world have the balls or the integrity to impose sanctions ? UK/Germany certainly wouldn't impose sanctions, and Americans wouldn't impose them, because, generally speaking,the American public hate Arabs and they like the religious and /or 'white' macho, spartan warrior, 'frontier spirit' aspect of Israel -- you can't under estimate the hatred of Arabs and all things Muslim -- a cursory look at the US/UK tabloid/conservative press and blog pages shows a distinct support from the public ( as judged from the comments from the public on the articles ) for drone attack murders, etc. Even so called enlightened papers like the Guardian show some degree of public support for killing Arabs and Muslims via drones etc ( see 'Comment is Free' pages.) China and other far eastern powers wouldn't impose sanctions, because they are un interested in the conflict, have no historical/religious connections to the region, and are pragmatic enough to see that if they had to choose sides, 'Jewish power' is far more useful to them than 'Arab power' ( though that might fluctuate depending on oil needs in Asia).

      Sumud "Either their behaviour will modify, or they will nuke all of the Middle East and Europe in childish spite. To be honest I’m not sure which is more likely, and that scares me."

      Yes, I agree with you -- it is frightening.

    • I posted the following on the other Norm/BDS thread, but it is equally relevant here -- The Israelis are quite right to fear the one state solution -- they know, very well, the ceaseless humiliations that they have heaped on the Arabs, and they fear that the Arabs will never, ever forgive them, and will never turn the other cheek. They are right -- most Israelis, surely, must know what they have done. I am not suggesting Israelis feel guilty or sorry about it -- they are racist supremacists -- but they know very well Arabs will not forgive them.

      It is not at all the same case as when West and East Africa was handed back to its original African owners -- in those cases, the white population, annoyed and peeved that they could no longer enjoy their manicured lawns, cucumber sandwich garden parties, cricket, evening cocktails and 'England in the summer' lifestyle, simply packed up their colonial bags and returned to the rolling fields of Southern England or France. Think about it -- how many of the original white population of settlers stayed and worked with the new African governments? Very few -- an eccentric white tea planter here or there, or a working class white electrician or engineer, with little to go back to in Europe remained -- but not a great amount of white people remained in Kenya, Malawi, Zambia, and even fewer white people remained in Nigeria, Niger, Mozambique Algeria, Morocco, etc.

      In Southern Africa it was different -- the white settlers had deeper roots going back to the late 1600's, and had developed a rural white peasantry, a working class and an affluent middle class, who had long severed their European roots. And in these countries, the black populations usually lived in chronic under class slum poverty, servitude, and even lived quasi hunter gather rural lives, a state for the most part, worse than the serf status of Europe in the 1600’s, with no education and no real means of taking organised, directed revenge beyond numerous random gruesome stabbings and lynching of white people, etc, which did happen in South Africa.

      In Israel though, it is different -- you have a literate, well educated, powerful Arab population, with a long and enlightened cultural memory, with a sense of identity and dignity that goes far further back than the middle ages, a sense of pride, supported by very powerful connections worldwide, and all of these Arabs know they have had their faces shoved in the dirt and trash for decades -- and they will not live in peace with those who turned up from Poland and Russia, Paris and Brooklyn, stole their homes and then proceeded to intentionally hurt everything sacred to them.
      The Israelis know that, and thus will not accept one state -- that is the truth.
      Also, as Shahak and other have shown, Israeli society, culture, and religion is riddled with racism, prejudice and exclusion – the Israelis would never accept being on equal footing with 'the other'. Not only that, many of Israel's immigrant population hail from Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Russia, Moldova, Poland -- ALL of these countries are deeply, deeply racist, macho, inward look, excluding societies, mired in ethno centric nationalism, and exclusion of the 'other', and the Jewish immigrants have carried that racism with them to Israel.

      Do you think Ukrainians and Poles and Moldovans would ever accept equal rights with Arabs -- never. Israelis will not either.

      Two states is not going to happen -- the Jews have contempt for the very idea of giving up, or sharing the land. One state isn't going to happen either.

      Things do not look good -- unless, that is, Israel becomes the leading world power, and can thumb its nose in contempt at everyone else -- they seem to be doing a pretty good job of that so far.

  • Finkelstein stands by 'BDS cult' accusation, says it's 'historically criminal' to not support the two state solution
    • The Israelis are quite right to fear the one state solution -- they know, very well, the ceaseless humiliations that they have heaped on the Arabs, and they fear that the Arabs will never, ever forgive them, and will never turn the other cheek. They are right -- most Israelis, surely, must know what they have done. I am not suggesting Israelis feel guilty or sorry about it -- they are racist supremacists -- but they know very well Arabs will not forgive them.

      It is not at all the same case as when West and East Africa was handed back to its original African owners -- in those cases, the white population, annoyed and peeved that they could no longer enjoy their manicured lawns, cucumber sandwich garden parties, cricket, evening cocktails and 'England in the summer' lifestyle, simply packed up their colonial bags and returned to the rolling fields of Southern England or France. Think about it -- how many of the original white population of settlers stayed and worked with the new African governments? Very few -- an eccentric white tea planter here or there, or a working class white electrician or engineer, with little to go back to in Europe remained -- but not a great amount of white people remained in Kenya, Malawi, Zambia, and even fewer white people remained in Nigeria, Niger, Mozambique Algeria, Morocco, etc.

      In Southern Africa it was different -- the white settlers had deeper roots going back to the late 1600's, and had developed a rural white peasantry, a working class and an affluent middle class, who had long severed their European roots. And in these countries, the black populations usually lived in chronic under class slum poverty, servitude, and even lived quasi hunter gather rural lives, a state for the most part, worse than the serf status of Europe in the 1600’s, with no education and no real means of taking organised, directed revenge beyond numerous random gruesome stabbings and lynching of white people, etc, which did happen in South Africa.

      In Israel though, it is different -- you have a literate, well educated, powerful Arab population, with a long and enlightened cultural memory, with a sense of identity and dignity that goes far further back than the middle ages, a sense of pride, supported by very powerful connections worldwide, and all of these Arabs know they have had their faces shoved in the dirt and trash for decades -- and they will not live in peace with those who turned up from Poland and Russia, Paris and Brooklyn, stole their homes and then proceeded to intentionally hurt everything sacred to them.
      The Israelis know that, and thus will not accept one state -- that is the truth.
      Also, as Shahak and other have shown, Israeli society, culture, and religion is riddled with racism, prejudice and exclusion – the Israelis would never accept being on equal footing with 'the other'. Not only that, many of Israel's immigrant population hail from Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Russia, Moldova, Poland -- ALL of these countries are deeply, deeply racist, macho, inward look, excluding societies, mired in ethno centric nationalism, and exclusion of the 'other', and the Jewish immigrants have carried that racism with them to Israel.

      Do you think Ukrainians and Poles and Moldovans would ever accept equal rights with Arabs -- never. Israelis will not either.

      Two states is not going to happen -- the Jews have contempt for the very idea of giving up, or sharing the land. One state isn't going to happen either.

      Things do not look good -- unless, that is, Israel becomes the leading world power, and can thumb its nose in contempt at everyone else -- they seem to be doing a pretty good job of that so far.

  • 'I better not call Betty' -- My long path to unreasonable optimism about the conflict
    • Kevin, I'd like to say again, no sleight is intended towards you or your article.

    • Kevin, I emphasise, I was not taking a cheap shot at you -- I do not know you. I can clearly see your good intentions, and I do not respect keyboard warriors taking anonymous shots at the well intentioned and thus, I would not do so -- I'd like to say I was just making a wider point about why some Americans and Europeans suddenly find out 'they are Jews.' It seems to be an increasing phenomenon in recent years.

    • I apologise in advance to all those Americans who have campaigned for Native Indian rights, and drawn attention to the colonial injustice carried out by Americans and Canadians ( such as Jeff Blankfort, who has mentioned that very point here on M'Weiss more than a few times, and Finkelstein also very thoroughly made that point in his "Image and Reality" book ) -- but -- I have very often heard hard line Israelis querying why they should take anti-Israeli Americans at all seriously, asking why many Americans campaign relentlessly against settlement of Palestinian land, making it a centre point of their lives -- when Americans and Canadians are STILL settlers on someone else's land too, and many BDS Americans/Canadians seem to devote little or no time to getting more rights for Native Indians.

      And you know, the hard line Israelis do have a point there.

      I was recently involved in a discussion with an 'anti colonial' Canadian, who was proudly chastising and belittling an English guy amongst us, for having been from a one time colonial settler country -- the Canadian fellow was very smug, self satisfied at his 'anti colonial' credentials, and very self righteous -- incredibly, it did not seem to occur to him that Canadians still ARE settlers on someone elses land, living at the expense of the REAL owners of the land.

    • Roha said, : "Europeans seem more interested in whether their ancestors were members of the aristocracy".

      Roha, a very small so called 'upper class' European elite like to show off about their so called 'aristocratic' and 'lordly' ancestors -- while the rest of us know their ancestors were robber barons who invented these categories. However, I have met and still do meet, so many Americans who, after a beer or two,either tell me their grandmothers were Sioux, Cherokee, or,equally madly, seem to think they were related to 'Austrian princes' who had castles etc. You don't know how many times Americans tell people these absurd stories.

      Americans are delusional -- that's what comes from stealing and robbing a whole vast country from the native population and killing most of them in the process.

      The Europeans also committed the same appalling crimes -- but they have one very small saving grace -- they have now ( admittedly reluctantly ) de-colonised. They no lnger 'lord it over the savages' in Rhodesia, Malawi, South Africa, Algeria etc. The Americans and Canadians however, are STILL colonial masters, lording it over a native population they either ignore or pretend are not there.

    • Forgive my cynicism about what is surely a well intentioned article from a man with no agenda other than a decent one, but I found the following more than a little fanciful, showing that his affiliation with Judaism, secular, orthodox, 'ethnic' or cultural, is, clearly almost non existent : "What I found out from my mother was that her father's family was in some hazy unrecorded way actually German and Jewish, but they had assimilated and converted long ago. "

      Why is it so common -- especially amongst Americans -- for people to suddenly 'find out' that they are 'Jewish?'

      I used to get so tired of Americans who were clearly from English, Scottish, German, or Norwegian origin, saying to me with a romantic air : "oh yes, well , you know I am half Cherokee.My grandmother was a native American Indian." It was very very difficult to take these people seriously when it was highly likely that their great grandparents had no Indian connections whatsoever, were probably from a small sleepy , rural English or Austrian village, had more than likely approved the apartheid system in USA, and, had utter contempt for native Indians in the old days.

      Now, it seems very common to meet people who come out with the line, "Oh, you know, my dad's uncle's cousin told me that we were probably Jewish you know, and I have found a photo of my grandparent's cousins, and they sure do look Jewish and they have a Jewish sounding name, and now I remember it, my grandfather was a little Jewish looking too, you know..."

      It seems fashionable to 'discover' one is 'Jewish' in American right wing politcal circles, American/European 'art/lit' circles, and now, in anti Israel circles.

      What is it with Americans and Europeans with these fanciful ideas about their 'ancestors?'

  • 'Atlantic' writer admits she knocked Joe Sacco's Gaza book out of deserved place on top-10 list out of fear of 'polarizing'
    • Jeffrey, you are absolutely right in your analysis of Gordon Duff -- his writing is completely chaotic, and with so many errors, so much ungrounded supposition and much of it is just plain nonsense. I have no idea what he is up to -- but he is not in any way an informed writer and thinker. I have to say, his writing is disinformation, and sensationalist rhetoric.

      What is he really up to?

  • 500 protesters join boycott demo at Max Brenner store in Australia
    • tokyobk, enough already with the Gilad Atzmon smears -- we are adult enough to read his work and decide for ourselves what is actually 'anti Semitic' in his writing, and what is of worth and value.

      Why is that so many Zionists ( and Jews ) try to scare people away by the smear by association tactic? It is tired by now, and easy to spot, so it doesn't work anymore. Give it up.

    • Indeed, Annie, and since he hasn't returned to continue the 'debate' and support his point of view, he is clearly a troll.

    • YRN, on a further point, I know almost nothing about David Duke, but I would have thought that his ethno centric ‘self preservation’ consciousness would be very familiar to many right wing Israelis and Jews, many of whom seem to consider assimilation or intermarriage to be a curse and ‘bad for Jews.’ So, I am not sure why you consider David Duke holding similar views about his own people to be offensive? As the old saying goes, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

      Secondly, however bad you assume Duke’s views and stance to be, at least he hasn’t robbed another peoples country, forced them off their land, beat, clubbed, tear gassed and harrassed them, as the people you support, the Israelis and Jews have done.

      You know YRN, you have some chutzpah – you stand up for,represent and support a European people, who turned up from Kiev, Poland and Moscow, and robbed a land from weaker dark skinned people, and yet you sneer at Duke’s views.

      The hypocrisy is staggering.

    • YRN, give up your smear of Atzmon -- that is the typical Zionist approach to debate and discussion -- smear the messenger. Atzmon in other articles he has written states his belief that such a strategy runs very deep in Jewish culture.

      YRN, you are probably aware that amongst Norman Finkesltein's 'fans' are a number of questionably unsavory characters such as Lady Renouf and other fringe 'personalities' I won't mention -- does that mean that by association, we should also smear Norman Finkelstein now?

      Atzmon has a strong message, that it seems people like you and Max Ajl and others on Mondoweiss want to silence -- why is that?

  • American Jews feel warmer about Netanyahu than Obama -- in switch from a year ago
    • Max, excuse me for not having “the parsing skills of a squadron of Talmudic scholars” but it seems you are deeply confused on a number of levels, and it also seems that much of your driving motivation lies in laying down the law regarding what 'can, and can't be said about Jews', and also in enforcing what the guidelines will be regarding how "the revolution for Palestinians freedom” is going to be allowed to happen.

      Allowed by you and according to you that is, and , one would assume, those you allow to join in your revolution.

      But, I have to ask, once the ‘revolution’ on your terms is underway in Gaza, the West Bank, or in Beirut, or in Syria, what kind of state or power structure do you imagine? A left wing or right wing one? And what kind of left wing state? One based on Kropotkin?

      What if the Arabs in Gaza couldn’t care less about Kropotkin’s economic terms? Or, will it be a joining of Muslims, Jews and Christians and atheists? And, will there have to be a cadre organised by you to monitor what is 'allowed to be said about Jews', and if ‘critical things’ you don't like or agree with are said about Jews and 'Jewish power', what do you propose to do about it?

      And, you say the following: “(Mondoweiss) seems to push for stirring up white racism and white nationalism in pursuit of a chimerical alliance between an American upper-class screwed by Zionism and the American lower-classes likewise screwed by Zionism. It’d be trouble enough if that were the basis for a sound strategic alliance and Palestinians had to choose their poison”

      I don’t agree with such a sweeping analysis of Mondoweiss, but, one thing stands out that is explicit here, and implicit in much of your writing: I am not American and my family are not white, or European, so I have no vested interest here, but you seem to object to an alliance of lower class Americans “screwed by Zionism” and middle class Americans “screwed by Zionism” –

      But why do you find such an alliance so contemptible and ‘chimerical?’ Would you also, for examples' sake, find an alliance of ethnic Thai middle and working classes in reaction to being screwed over by Chinese elites to be contemptible? Would you find an alliance between South Korean working and middle classes in reaction to American multi nationals unacceptable? Would you find an alliance between working and middle class Ukrainians against Russian exploitation unacceptable, or an alliance of Polish American working and middle class to ward off WASP elites in 1960’s America to be dismissed too?

      Max, you haven’t thought your revolutionary ethno-centric, self centred rhetoric through, on any level, and you are a prime example of why more and more people consider the ‘anti Zionist’ left and ‘Jews only’ anti Zionist groups to be pretty much the same as the right wing Jewish groups, and the same as straightforward Zionist groups.

      And hey Max, thanks for your invite to a "Kibbutz in Gaza" -- presumably to help us understand your revolution, and to stop us being "armchair keyboard warriors in our Mum's basement" -- but I have a family to look after and children to bring up -- but hey, thanks all the same, it's a nice thought, I appreciate your trying to educate us 'on the ground' as it were.

    • Jeffrey, Max Ajl wrote: “ To that end, please don’t flatter yourself that I want you to stop writing on this blog. Your groupies seem to be flattering you adequately, so you can skip flattering yourself anyway. What I want is for you to start being helpful towards building a transformative political movement, work you abandoned decades ago. Anyway, every day is a day to choose, and my expectations are low. But surprise me, Jeff.”

      Max Ajl just can't stop the petty sneering and smearing -- a very odd condition he reproduces endlessly, and it is the exact same tactic that the far right Jews/Zionists use : smear, denounce, attempt to belittle, and attempt to destroy through assumed association. I found an article he wrote on Gilad Atzmon, and his so called ‘fans and groupies’ ( E.g. People whose views Ajl doesn’t like ) who he likens to "little maggots congregating on rotten meat."

      Max Ajl says of those who dared to commit the thought crime of agreeing with Gilad Atzmon (and, one assumes, dared to hold to a view different to his own) that they are "little maggots congregating on him ( Atzmon ) like a piece of rotten meat, sagely agreeing..." and Ajl then goes on to advise those that dare to agree with Atzmon ( and I suppose, to dare to disagree with Ajl ) as follows : "you’ll just have to leave your mom’s basement where you sit stewing over what Moishe did to you in playschool."

      Curiously, Ajl then 'allows' us to go and read Atzmon, and make up our own minds ( that is 'cool' with him ) , saying , " Atzmon seems to make most Diaspora Jews furious, a phase I briefly passed through but got over. I find him contemptible and don’t think he says anything worthwhile... Others may disagree. Cool! Listen to him! It is not hard to find his views on the internet, and if you like, go read. We are not auditioning people for the guillotine and this is not about freedom of speech."

      Wow, thanks Max, that's a relief to know, really...

      Ajl then goes on to explain his aims, telling us that he is "trying to build a revolutionary social movement to shatter the Western system of control in the Middle East" and, Ajl explains, he is "aware that the Judeophobes have somewhat different agendas."

      Whew Max, well, thanks for letting us join your revolution....can we? Actually, probably most of us can't, or won't be allowed to...it's tough to meet your demands it seems, and to be allowed into your club, and since you seem to be deciding the terms of the revolution and what is good for Palestinians, and what isn't good for them, we’ll just have to follow your plan.

      Finally , Max lets us all in on what the Mondoweiss establishment are all about, saying : "I read Mondoweiss like six times a day. It is simply a great site. However, some of the analysis is confused: morally, strategically, and politically. It seems to push for stirring up white racism and white nationalism in pursuit of a chimerical alliance between an American upper-class screwed by Zionism and the American lower-classes likewise screwed by Zionism. "

      Here’s the link --

      link to jacobinmag.com

    • Re Max Ajl, Jeffrey wrote — “Well, just above that you did finally admit that “Obviously the Nakba and the Naksa are overwhelmingly the responsibility of Israeli Jewry,” but getting that out of you was like pulling teeth long distance.”

      At last !

      “You simply want me to shut up and if I won’t do it you want Phil and Adam to do it. I should remind you that this is Mondoweiss and not your Jewbonics and they are in a very important way a world apart.”

      It is the old censorship/shut your mouth role that the Zionists play — but….I though Max Ajl was anti – Zionist?

      Here’s where the differences between pro/anti-Zioinist role, aims, methods, motivations get blurred for many of us.

      But hey Jeffrey, at least he didn’t do his usual thing and try to get people to ‘shut up’ by introducing his argument with a ‘f__ck you moth___er , co___er , as____le ” schoolyard line he usually indulges in.

    • Jeffrey wrote "One of the problems that constricts Max and those in the same mindset from dealing with the problem of Jewish complicity in Israel's and America's crimes (specifically with the neocon orchestration of the Iraq war) is that he thinks by insulting and openly attempting to censor those who try to tell the truth, that people won't see what we see."

      Exactly -- well said. People get tired of the stern faced "be silent! " strategy, used to censor. Max Ajl, young though he is, has played the role perfectly. And this is precisely why many are beginning to view Jewish anti-Zionists as being exactly the same as the Jewish Zionists. At the stage of being just another set of gatekeepers of the discourse, and censoroing what can and can't be said, what exactly is the crucial difference between the Jewish Zionists and the Jewish anti Zionists? As we can see from the case of Max Ajl, at the bottom line, eventually, they both behave in the same way, use the same strategies, and seem to have at least some of the same motivations and aims anyway.

      Thanks for your clear and unbiased humanist voice Jeffrey.

    • Jeffrey, I just logged on to Ajl's page, and I can see your perfectly reasoned proposition to debate him, and I also see his response -- Ajl writes in reply to your post, "So I will first tell you to fuck off, then give you links to two Palestinian intellectuals who share the general orientation if not the specific argument"

      Extraordinary.

    • Jeffrey, thanks for your reply, and I think you have assessed Max Ajl and his blog very well -- I have read his blog closely for while now, aswell as looking at the imagery he employs on his logos, the film references to ""Defiance" which I noted too, and I conclude the same as you. All of that speaks volumes to the onlooker, expressing much perhaps of which he may not be entirely aware himself. He further confuses his stance by his frequent resort to schoolyard- playground cursing if challenged , or called on to explain his ideas. Hopefully, he may understand more , and how to deal with these things, as he grows older.

    • Blankfort wrote "Agreed, and wading through Ajl’s twisted efforts to deny the predominant influence of the American Jewish establishment in shaping US Middle East policy,"

      Agreed -- in your view, what is Ajl's game in doing so? I would ask him directly, but he would probably only answer with a torrent and flurry of "F' words, so I choose not to, and besides, your response will be more perceptive and direct Jeffrey.

    • Jeffrey, your posts are excellent, and teach us a lot -- you refute and counter Max Ajl's arguments very well. If I may say, I notice that Max Ajl resorts to 'F' word curses and slurs as a means of debate.

  • The Norway massacre and the nexus of Islamophobia and right-wing Zionism
    • Very good, but Gilad Atzmon understood the links and got the story well before Blumenthal and others did — Check Atzmon’s insights on his website. He has the story clear, and his is the most convincing explanation I have seen yet.

  • I shouldn't have admitted, I'm pulling for the Japanese
    • I find it extremely difficult to get worked up about sports and flags and related chest beating and cheering.

      Who cares?

  • Unsafe, unfair, unreasonable Hitchens
    • Miura wrote : "He ( Hitchens ) is among the last of a dying breed of ex-Trotskyites."

      I find it utterly impossible how anyone could ever have found Trotsky appealing -- I do not get it, and I have tried to understand the 'appeal' of Trotksy.

      Anyone care to tell me why Trostky would be a good thinker to take seriously, ever?

      Spekaing very broadly of the 'historical left' now, in it's early phases and in its massively diverse manifestations, I certainly understand and respect Marx's appeal, I understand the appeal of Proudhon, Mahkno, Kropotkin, Bakunin, Stirner, Malatesta -- but Trotsky? I have never got it.

      Anyone here want to stand up for Trotsky and explain his appeal?

  • Don't lose heart. This struggle is a long one
    • eee wrote -- "Telling Israeli Jews, a large majority of them born in Israel that Israel is not their land is “rational”? I am second generation born in Israel. Both my parents were born here. Do you really want to argue that this is not my land?"

      Your post is utterly vacuous, without reason and without foundation. Lots of white suprmacists were born in Rhodesia, and also their parents were too. It was not their land. Lots of white power Dutch-German Boers were born in South Africa, a land they considered theirs for eternity, a promised gift from God. It was not their land. Lots of Japanese colonists were born in Korea in the Japanese settler period. It was not their land. Many white French people were born in Algeria during the colonial period -- it was not their land.

      Need I go on? From reading your posts eee, I can only conclude that either you are a sadist wanting to hang around Mondoweiss, a rabid 'Israel forever' supporter trying to 'tell the truth' to the de-legitimisers, or, an agent provocateur.

  • A despairing conversation with an Arab friend at the Four Seasons
    • Citizen wrote, "MR, I think eee will be back here soon with his answer; I heard he was busy studying up on the Magna Carta and skimming over the online volunteer translation of 200 Years Together from Russian to English."

      Indeed Citizen, indeed -- I just get so tired of Jews ( many of them it seems) who automatically assume that 'goys just always go crazy' against Jews; "I don't know why....they....just go maaaddd." In that world view, all of us goys are anti semitic -- it is just a matter of time until our inherent hate and prejudice shows itself. I find that assumption very offensive.

      I hate the assumption ( common amongst many gentile too ) that all through history, the goy have been born with some defective impulse leading them to automatically hate Jews.

      Finkelstein and Hilberg scorned Goldhagen for precisely that assumption -- Goldhagen's view was that the entire German society had some kind of inherent Jew hating wickedness, just waiting to overflow into irrational mass murder.

    • eee, still waiting for a reply regarding your post about those 'crazy anglo Saxons', who, periodically, just 'go crazy' -- if you can tell us why they 'just go crazy' again and again, it will help them self reflect and understand themselves.

    • eee wrote : “That is exactly why a Jewish state is required. The Jews need a refuge when the Anglo-Saxons go crazy.”

      But why do the goyim just ‘go crazy’ eee? Is it some primitive psychic flaw, something inherent, just waiting to explode within the goy? Really, if you can tell us why, repeatedly, all through history, the goy have suddently, ‘burst out and behaved that way’, then it will help us understand anti Semitism, and help us prevent it. Please tell us your theories.

      You might want to read Israel Shahak’s chapter on Poland too, from around page 63 — ( disclaimer : I do not support the webhost by the way, and know nothing of their agenda)

      link to bandung2.co.uk

    • hophmi said : "Don’t bother with these people, Robert. if you’re a friend of the Palestinian cause, you’ll realize that they are discrediting it by associating it with this kind of whackiness."

      The official story is the totally whacky one hophmi. Huge parts of it just do not make sense.

      I have no interest in silly conspiracy 'scenes' and the kinds of people that seem to flock around them, but, I can no longer take the official story seriously.

      After all -- Can you explain the following fall ?

      link to youtube.com

      As Jeffrey Blankfrot and others have said here; it is the OFFICIAL story that is just absurd. How could anyone believe it?

    • Robert wrote : "We’re not here to live the JFK/UFO/etc etc conspiracy theories all over again. So if there is really good information, and a plausible model, then that’s fine, but the WTC crap, AFAIK doesn’t rise to the level. "

      Robert, I too have no interest in conspiracy theories and the kinds of 'scenes' that surround them, and I did my best to ignore WTC theories as a total waste of time. But, for any thinking person, it becomes unavoidable -- the govt. versions of events ( from US and UK ) are ludicrous on every level and just don't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny. Even seasoned journalists like Robert Fisk , who mocks conspiracy theorists, does not believe it, and balanced, rational commentators and academics like Tariq Ramadan, also doen't believe it.

      It is not the case that 'conspiracy theories' related to WTC / 9-11 are all about 'alien laser rays' ,and, ' the plane was a magical projection and wasn't even there' and other such utter nonsesense : no, most people who question that day simply see that the state explanations are just fantastical on every level. As Blankfort says, the state versions are so 'out there' as to be conspiratorial, not the doubters version.

      And you say that Chomsky, a scientist, supports the state story of what happened on that day : sorry, but Chomsky is a professor of linguistics, and not engineering or physics. Linguistics may well be a science, but not a branch of science that helps him understand how a totally secure, strong building can drop in seconds in a manner that baffles engineers and demolition experts in its orderly speed and precision.

    • Jeffrey Blankfort wrote : "As for Chomsky, he has been playing the role of Left gatekeeper for years, first with the JFK assassination, then with his dismissal of the power of the pro-Israel Lobby, and now with 9-11. And he won’t debate any of it."

      Jeffrey, I have read your excellent articles challenging Chomsky, and I am interested in your views here -- why do you think Chomsky is gatekeeping? Is it that he is ( to use Gilad Atzmon's words ) 'tribal' too, and thus, still 'loyal?' Or, is that he is afraid of the massive power of the lobby, and just 'doesn't want to go there?' Perhaps he just doesn't want the added burden that challenging the lobby would bring on him.

      I also notice that he has no wish to discuss right of return in any depth ( he usually brushes it off and wants to move one ) and, as far as I know, he does the same with discussion of BDS.

      What do you think? If he is a gatekeeper, for how long has he been acting as one, and why do you think he does so?

      By the way, I think you should compile your significant knowledge of the whole I/P conflict into a book -- are you going to do so? It would make an excellent read.

  • Does Jello Biafra's possible Tel Aviv show mark bedtime for punk rock relevancy?
    • 1. Lydon played Israel.

      2. The Clash ended up wearing stupid US style uniforms on stage, playing Springsteen-crowd anthems in huge stadiums, whilst mumbling incoherent,cliched, vaguely 'left wing' lyrics.

      What else do you need to know ?

      Punk was no more 'for real' than any of the other previous 'revolutionary' music movements.

  • Atzmon and Jewish identity
    • Evildoer, I have to laugh,really -- what are the JC/Harry's Place headlines today by the way? Maybe our American borders can't spot you and your kind, but I can spot your ultra right-wing London/Hackney cynical arrogant style a mile off. What a give away you are.... Oh well, 'am yisrael chai' and all that, evildoer.... Say hi to Jonathan Hoffman, Tony Greenstein, Stephen Pollard, Howard Jacobson and Geoffrey Alderman and all your pro Israel mates at CIF Watch for me, eh?

      Troll spotted.

      Go back to start.

    • Evildoer, do you write for Harry's Place and the Jewish Chronicle?

      Thought so.

      Cover.

      Blown.

      Do not feed the trolls.

    • Evildoer, if I may say, you seem unnaturally obssessed with 'the Jews'. You are coming up with all kinds of self centred, self important nonsense, about what you perceive to be the central role of 'the Jews'.

      I feel sorry for you, and advise a visit to your doctor, where you can sit down and discuss your slef centred prejudices and 'ethno centric' fantasies together.

      And no, 'the Jews' do NOT run the world. Like David Duke, you seem to be projecting all kinds of central roles on 'the Jews.'

    • Wow, evildoer, I am glad you got that off your chest -- wow, what a wounded howl and petulant, childish shriek....actually, all those 'acusations' you say I levelled at 'those nasty rich power hungry Jews' are actually not my ideas or projections AT ALL , I read them in Amos Elon and Yuri Szelezkine, both Jewish academics...and I was actually very, very bored reading all those long, long lists THEY, two Jews, both came up with about 'the Jews being over represented amongst Bolsheviks etc, etc., the Jews over represented in the secret services in USSR, over represented in US media etc etc ' Believe me, it is BORING reading yet another 'academic' , Jew or Gentile, going on and on and on about 'how Jews have influenced Hollywood' etc etc..

      I found it boring -- it is just the kind of stuff David Duke goes on and on and on about...

      The only difference is Duke is cursing the Jews because they 'have played these roles' ( apparently) whilst Elon and Szelezkine and their numerous fans PRAISE the Jews for -- supposedly -- playing these roles !

      How does that work exactly?

      If you don't beleive me, watch the Yuri Szelezkine speech in Tel Aviv I posted ( see below my post )

      So,why is it ok for Jewish scholars to mention these things they believe to be true, and they even get to be praised for it by other Jews, as Szlezkine is -- but if a goy even so much as notices or reads what Jews say about other Jews -- then WE are the crazed depraved anti Semites???

      Can't you see the utter , complete, nauseating hypocricy you reveal? Really, you must be blind.

      Here, watch Szlezkine in Israel -- Here is Yuri Szelezkine, in Israel, in full flow speaking about --supposedly -- ‘the Jewish character/Jewish achievements in the 19th/20th century’. You’ll need to scroll forward to the 48 mins mark — the start of the meeting is in Hebrew, but Szelezkine speaks in English from 48 mins.

    • Gilad, you mentioned a new book -- is it a novel? I read one of your books ( named after a Chet Baker tune ) a few years ago. It was funny, and surreal, but I find your polemical writing more interesting -- when is your book available?

    • Patm wrote -- "The idea of being a special people is built right into their holy book. It’s definitely not been a helpful notion."

      Agreed -- but do most Jews ever put two and two together and see that that 'chosenness' is just asking to be viewed differently, and that such notions of 'specialness' only serve to alienate the goyim, and don't exactly make them feel good about wanting to understand and relate to Judaism?

      How are the goyim supposed to feel if Jewish scriptures and related cultural influences are actually dismissive of them and hostile, viewing goyim a not 'one of the select chosen?' Indeed, some Jewish texts consider the goy not fully human, and their soul as being inferior, little better than animal-like.

      I don't know, but it isn't really a recipe for social cohesion and neighbourly respect is it? Israel is a perfect example of that contempt for the goyim.

    • "He seems to think all Jews are like Israelis."

      Mooser, I think that is a reaction caused by adversity -- every organised Jewish movement in UK, from the 'far left' to the 'right' and the apolitical, have all done their best to destroy Atzmon, and they often co ordinate their attacks.

      If you are a close follower of the UK press, then it is far from difficult to simply join the dots from the right wingers ( 'Jewish Chronicle',various far right Zionist groups ) , to the 'caring liberals' ( Arronovich, Howard Jacobson, Kamm, Cohen ) to the so called 'far left socialist/Trotsky-ite actitvist ' Jewish groups -- they all had one thing in common -- unite to get Atzmon off the radar, and they tried, and keep trying.

      I think that is why Atzmon sees 'all Jews' as being 'like Israelis.'

    • Debbie and Citizen, agreed -- it has to be one of the most interesting threads in a while. Now 300 posts!

      Hopefully, Weiss will interview Gilad now.

    • pat, I can see that every religion surely has 'difficult' aspects in its Scriptures; I don't doubt we can find 'troublesome' and exclusive-separatist verses, difficult to reconcile, in all religions -- but I wonder to what degree Jews are aware of how alienating those aspect of their 'chosen-ness', 'specialness' and 'difference' in their scriptures are to non Jews?

    • Weiss hasn't re-joined the debate, so we do not know how he feels about expressing those notions. It's not a 'thought crime' of course; he's more than entitled to express those ideas, but I felt a little sad and disappointed to read them, and I hope he might see how others might find them troubling too, particularly the idea he expresses of being 'elite' , which obviously translates as, and is synonymous with 'specialness' and 'superior difference'.

      If a WASP came on the discussion thread and expressed those notions, they'd be -- rightly -- immediately challenged.

      That leads me to my second query ( and it is a genuine query, not a provocative, trolling one )-- is that 'specialness' and 'elite' idea Weiss expresses something inherited from being brought up in Jewish culture, and influenced by ideas from Jewish scripture? The idea that a Jewish soul is 'special', 'different', 'chosen'?

      I find these ideas very troubling indeed, and I wonder how Jews feel about them; I wonder if Jews realise how alienating and troubling ( and saddening in their divisiveness) these ideas are to non -Jews, and I wonder if Jews find these notions easy to shake off?

    • Well Gilad, I still find Weiss' original words in the interview troubling : the idea that he felt he was a member of an 'elite' group, and that he is interested in 'tribally' self interested aims and objectives.

      I find these notions to be very troubling.

    • Gilad, the majority of posters here clearly sympathize with your ideas, very much so --but one can't help but notice the hysteria you elicited from some posters, EG Wondering Jew, Pessah, Shmuel,and, especially, that guy Max Ajl ( I think he may have his own blog page ), who responded to you with absolute wounded shrieking school boy spite, like an angered cat, spitting and scratching.

      What is it that you set off in these people? What is clear though, is that, in some way, young Jewish people like Max Ajl, feel they want to set the agenda , and set the parametres for what can and can't be said regarding Palestine and Jewish matters.

      ( PS I still think it would be a good idea if Phil Weiss interviewed you in return. 200 plus posts here do show an interest I'd say.)

    • Here is Yuri Szelezkine, in Israel, in full flow speaking about 'the Jewish character/Jewish achievements in the 19th/20th century'.

      You'll need to scroll forward to the 48 mins mark -- the start of the meeting is in Hebrew, but Szelezkine speaks in English from 48 mins.

    • Indeed Mr. Atzmon, Amos Elon’s “The Pity of It All” and Yuri Szelezkine’s “Jewish Century” are powerful texts : Elon is stil evasive in his work, but one can read between the lines, and get a fairly honest picture of aspects of Jewish history. Szeleskine's book -- had it been written by a goy -- would never,ever have been published : Szelzkine , a Jewish author, devotes large parts of his research and interviews boasting about the very same stuff so called anti Semites are 'excommunicated' for.

      It all gets a bit overwhelming,and bewildering, reading through the long lists of things Szelezkine feels 'Jews are responsible for controling/dictating/innovating' in history :

      According to Szelezkine, Jews DO run Hollywood, and according to Szeleskine, Jews WERE over represented amongst the Bolshevik secret police and gulags ( and were feared and resented figures in Eastern Europe precisely for that ) ; according to Szelezkine, Jews created, personify, and DO dictate the utilitarian framework of globalization etc etc. Szelezkine goes on and on and on, and on, boasting about these things, and is actually invited to 'high prestige' academic conventions in Israel, to boast together with other Israelis, about 'how smart the Jews are, and what amazing things they have achieved..'

      I find the whole experience of reading Szelskine's research baffling and exhasusting after a while -- indeed, it is a actually a very odd experience to see Szelezkine boasting about aspects of 'being Jewish' that, if written about by a goy author, might well destroy the author's career, or see him banished forever from 'reasonable society.'

      Szelezkine is praised and respected and adored in some Jewish circles -- were he a goy, he'd never write again.

      It is an odd duality.

    • What is really noticeable here, is how offended,challenged and hurt Max, Tom and Wondering Jew have been -- I hope they have been offered a chance for self reflection and better understanding.

      It's certainly a good debate.

    • Max, Atzmon has really got to you hasn't he. It seems you think he doesn't deserve the attention he gets.

      Well, Richard Falk likes Atzmon's writing. Mearsheimer rates Atzmon's work highly. John Pilger thinks his writing is valuable too. And, he is also highly regarded by more than a few Palestinian writers.

      He's not doing too badly then, is he?

      So.....well....just a thought here Max, but I doubt Atzmon is waiting for, or seeking your stamp of approval.

      I am not really sure why, but clearly, his works seems to anger and hurt you.

    • Wondering Jews wrote : "When an 8 year old Jewish kid in an American school gets called a Christ killer, that too is against the Jewish interest, for it is natural to wish to protect an 8 year old kid, particularly if he/she is a member of the family. (It is natural to wish to protect an 8 year old black kid from being called a nigger and it is more natural to wish to protect an 8 year old Jewish kid from being called a Christ killer.) Thus it is in the Jewish self interest for this phrase not to trip off of the tongue of parents of the user of this epithet and thus it is in the Jewish self interest that no one make the use of this epithet any easier to trip off of the tongue of the parents."

      If I may ask, what on earth are you talking about? I am middle aged, a parent, and I have heard a lot of nasty banter between kids regarding race -- but I have never, in all my years heard even one single kid say to another "Hey, you, you disgusting Christ -killer! "

      I have never heard of such things happenning amongst kids ! I will be frank, I have not heard even one single anti-Semitic comment from a child, especially an eight year old, about Christ or any other matter.

      What kind of kids live in your neighbourhood?

      And if you are thinking about 'inter racial' inter ethnic matters between kids now, the last major event in regards to that were the massive riots in Israel, where Ashkenazi families refused to have their kids studying with Mizrahi and Shephardi children. Yes, part of that was related to the Ashkenazi ideas about religioisity ( or lack of ) in these different communities, but -- the Israeli press also reported on the clear racial discrimination too inherent in these riots. Ashkenazi familes just did not want their kids mixing with 'those blacks'.

    • Wondering Jew, you are really fixated with that point -- why don't you go and harrass those Jews in Israel and elsewhere that actually joke about killing Christ ? I understand that jokes, and comedies and discussion about Jews killing Christ are pretty common in Israel. Why are you fixating on Atzmon here for discussing issues around that? I thought Jewish hostility towards the figure of Christ was fairly common in Jewish society, and in some Jewish scriptures too. After all, aren't there a number of verses in Jewish scripture describing the most horrendous tortures of Christ as his 'deserved fate?"

      C'mon, you are not dealing with gullible idiots here -- you know very well that mocking TV shows about Christ, contemptuous jokes and views about Christ are not uncommon in Israel and in some Jewish circles.

    • Tom wrote : "we should also ask – why were homosexuals, people with disabilities, gypsies, children of African Americans and others hated by the Nazis? Atzmon should explain to us what they all did wrong. Poor Nazis, they have such a bad image."

      Tom, that's a really, really, misleading dishonest analogy, reminiscent of many of the studies that claim to "explain anti Semitism."

      Comparing the standing of the Jewish communities in these countries in the late 19th /early to mid 20th century, to that of mixed race outcasts, Gypsies at the lowest rung of society, and homosexuals is just plain deceptive on your part.

      Indeed, if one is sincerely trying to understand why German society ( or Ukrainian, or Polish society) turned against Jews, and if one sincerely want so understand why such an awful tragedy happened to Jews in those places, then such false comparisons don't help anyone.

      Read Amos Elon's "The Pity of It All" and Yuri Szelezkine's "Jewish Century" : the Jewish communities -- particularly in Germany -- were thriving , growing,influential, and affluent, in all walks of life. They were firmly established and very high profile in politics, the publishing industry, in banking and commerce, and in artistic circles. It is false to portray them entirely as victim groups within these societies.

      In those areas who now call Ukraine and Poland and Romania, Lithuania and Latvia-- whilst not as high profile and successful of course, and periodically subject to savage pogroms we all know about -- Jews were also fairly prominent as merchants, land lords, tax collectors,factory owners, tavern managers and salesmen, particularly in the liquor trade.

      Sorry -- comparing the status of Jews, to blacks, the handicapped and Gypsies is absolutely dishonest of you.

      That's why most of us don't have faith in many of the books that claim to authoritatively explain anti Semitism, Tom -- they write the same evasive, deceptive stuff as you, and expect us to uncritically accept such explanations.

    • Tom, and wondering jew, here are some Jewish people laughing about the 'who killed Christ' charge, one on mainstream US television --

      link to youtube.com

      link to youtube.com

      As I said, I have no interest whatsoever in the charge, one way or another, none at all -- but -- the 'Jews killed Christ' issue does seem to be a source of contempt/humour/triumphalism for some Jews and Israelis, doesn't it? There are also numerous reports of Jews spitting on Christians in Israel. Perhaps Atzmon's articles remind you of that, and you'd prefer not to look at that ? Is that it?

      Here's a Haaretz report on Jews spitting at Christians :

      "A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window. When the clergyman let the window down, the passerby spat in his face.

      The clergyman prefered not to lodge a complaint with the police and told an acquaintance that he was used to being spat at by Jews. Many Jerusalem clergy have been subjected to abuse of this kind."

      link to haaretz.com

    • I am not in the slightest interested in the banter of 'who killed Jesus' etc etc; 'it was the Jews', 'no it wasn't /yes it was.'

      But, it does seem odd you are so concerned with Atzmon mentioning it. After all, a quick visit to youtube, or to many a Jewish nationalist site, will turn up many examples of your co-religionists boasting about actually being responsible for, yes, killing Jesus.

      Is such conversation and humour common amongst Jews? There are also comedy programmes in Israel that joke about yes, killing Jesus. A US comedian ( forgotten her name ) cracks the same jokes , on mainstream American comedy shows.

      Why does it worry you then, if Atzmon draws attention to it?

    • Indeed Tom, but if highly regarded scholars such as Raul Hilberg ( and Finkelstein ) are on record as saying that vast amounts of Holocaust studies are worthless junk and shlock ( their words ), which obviously serve an agenda -- how would we possibly know which of the studies you mention are worth taking seriously as real scholarship.

      Just to clarify my position -- I do take the Holocaust extremely seriously . I have no wish to undermine victims -- but I have real problems in taking most Holocaust scholarship seriously. Very quickly in most cases, one senses that the 'scholarship' available is serving an agenda, and an unpleasant agenda at that.

      Given that is the case, I'd say Atzmon is justified in appearing sceptical about the spokesmen and books available on the topic.

      I have also respectfully tried and tried to read books that claim to explain anti Semitism too, recent ones being Amos Elon's "The Pity of it All", aswell as some of Yuri Szelskine's research -- I really would like to understand it -- but book after book, study after study I read on the topic, is typically evasive, crudely and manipulatively selective in the history it reports and analyses, and frankly,as a result, plain dishonest. I suspect the same is true of most holocaust studies, and the great Raul Hilberg and Finkelstein, seem to believe so too.

      Since I respect and trust Hilberg and Finkelstein I take their word for it.

      I am not surprised at all that Atzmon is cynical too about the studies available on these topics.

    • Chaos wrote -- " at least the discussion actually happens in the British Parliament. At all."

      Yes, it does happen, but in most cases, it is not reported in the mainstream press. Kaufman has surely said some courageous things, but the British public don't get to hear it on the ITN/BBC/Ch4 news, or get to read about it in the leading papers. The Independent and The Guardian may report dissenting words like Kaufman's, but generally not other papers, except in derogatory reports. Galloway spoke his mind to the Parliament -- and he was savaged in the press for it.

      There is a degree of free debate in UK -- but only within firmly defined boundaries. If journalists/politicians step slightly beyond those boundaries -- they will be blocked.

      There are exceptions to such restrictions -- for example, Jon Snow's savaging of Mark Regev on mainstream evening news ( Ch4 ) but these are not the norm. ( I think many of us UK viewers were amazed at Snow's 'radical-directness' here )

      Media Lens are very good at debating the boundaries of free debate in the UK media/parliament etc.

      link to medialens.org

    • Nuff said Wsky?

      Huh?

    • Atzmon has generated a lot of discussion today on Mondoweiss ! Just an idea here Phil ; why don't you interview Atzmon in return, and put it up on your site? The interplay between you two in the original interview has thrown up a lot of good questions, and clearly, there is a lot of interest in Atzmon's work. I recently read that Mearsheimer and Richard Falk stand by, and support his ideas too, not to mention John Pilger, who stood up and defended Atzmon's work a year or so ago.

      I think people who were originally put off his work by the well worn 'holocaust denier' tag, are beginning to see that Atzmon has been unfairly represented by his enemies.

      There's a lot more to Atzmon's work than the 'anti semite' tag.

    • Tom wrote : "The audacity it takes to ignore the entire body of evidence and to expect people to start from scratch, because Gilad Atzmon is unaware of any of this, is truly astonishing"

      Tom, but *where* exactly does Atzmon "ignore the body of evidence" and where does he say he "expects people to start from scratch?"

      You haven't read his work. Even great scholars like Hilberg and Finkelstein will be the first to tell you that a vast number of 'studies' on the holocaust are just ( in their words ) 'shlock'. So why shouldn't Atzmon he sceptical too, about the so called literature/studies on the holocaust?

      Here's Norman Finkelstein on the subject : " I do not remember the Nazi Holocaust ever intruding on my childhood. I do not recall a single friend (or parent of a friend) asking a single question about what my mother and father endured. This was not a respectful silence. It was indifference. In this light, one cannot but be sceptical of the outpourings of anguish in later decades, after the Holocaust industry was firmly established.

      I sometimes think that American Jewry "discovering" the Nazi Holocaust was worse than its having been forgotten. True, my parents brooded in private; the suffering they endured was not publicly validated. But wasn't that better than the current crass exploitation of Jewish martyrdom? Before the Nazi Holocaust became the Holocaust, only a few scholarly studies (by Raul Hilberg, Viktor Frankl and Ella Lingens-Reiner) were published on the subject.

      But this small collection of gems is better than the shelves upon shelves of shlock that now line libraries and bookstores. Both my parents, although daily reliving that past until the day each died, lost interest by the end of their lives in the Holocaust as a public spectacle. One of my father's lifelong friends was a former inmate with him in Auschwitz, a seemingly incorruptible leftwing idealist who on principle refused German compensation after the war. Eventually he became a director of the Israeli Holocaust museum Yad Vashem. Reluctantly and with genuine disappointment, my father finally admitted that even this man had been corrupted by the Holocaust industry, tailoring his beliefs for power and profit. As the rendering of the Holocaust assumed ever more absurd forms, my mother liked to quote (with intentional irony) Henry Ford: "History is bunk". The tales of "Holocaust survivors" - all concentration camp inmates, all heroes of the resistance - were a special source of wry amusement in my home.

      My parents often wondered why I would grow so indignant at the falsification and exploitation of the Nazi genocide. The most obvious answer is that it has been used to justify criminal policies of the Israeli state and US support for these policies. There is a personal motive as well. I do care about the memory of my family's persecution. The current campaign of the Holocaust industry to extort money from Europe in the name of "needy Holocaust victims" has shrunk the moral stature of their martyrdom to that of a Monte Carlo casino."

      link to guardian.co.uk

    • Alan Hart has an outstanding collection of interviews with Pappe, Alastair Crooke, Stephen Sizer, Finkelstein et al on youtube.

    • "Since Weiss runs the most popular Jewish progressive blog

      ;)

      everybody knows it’s true."

      Right on -- along with Finkelstein's page ( which he hasn't updated for a while ) , Mondoweiss is an admirable source, and a great project. Thumbs up to Philip, for sure.

    • Seham, don't be silly.....

    • Gellian, I have never been to USA or Canada, so I don't know, but do you think these issues are more easily discussed in Europe? You know, the press in Uk is certainly not open to these kinds of debates. When The Guardian featured some of Gilad Atzmon's writings, the 'disclaimer' before the article ( just so we knew the Guardian didn't support his views) was almost as long as Atzmon's whole article. Other UK papers such as The Daily Telegraph, had a writer, Oliver Kamm, who regularly attempted to vilify Atzmon ( but he gave up eventually.)

    • Hajo Meyer is a great man -- interestingly, he also gets harrassed by UK Zionists,( Hoffman, the Jewish Chronicle crowd etc ) and called an anti Semite and holocaust minimiser, if not a denier. His speeches have been broken up and disturbed by hardcore Zionists, catcalling and bullying.

    • N49, good points, good post. Agreed entirely.

    • Phil raises some very good and challenging points in the interview -- it's a good read.

    • ''Me: a whitebread goy. My wife: fallen jew. Our family: Pure Canadiana"

      What is a 'whitebread goy?' What is a 'fallen Jew?' and what is 'Pure Canadiana'?

      I am not being sarcastic; I just don't really understand any of these terms.

    • "Most of the time, the epithet ‘self hating Jew’ is tossed around to silence what are often fairly mild critics of Israel. But in Atzmon’s case, it is on point."

      Atzmon makes a joke of the 'self hating Jew' charge, saying he is proud to describe himself as such.

    • "the guy is a full-fledged Holocaust denier"

      Is he? How? Show us.

    • ” elite identity, that’s part of Jewish history…”

      It is that line from Weiss that worries me more than anything Atzmon has written. Think about it -- if a WASP said it, he'd be ( rightly) savaged.

      Why is a Jewish person more of an 'elite' than any other person ?

    • What's your point WJ? Care to elaborate?

    • PS -- Regarding him being a 'holocaust denier' -- I think that is also off track. Atzmon says he considers the holocaust to be like any other period of history, one that is constantly studied and viewed anew, as new discoveries come to light. All periods of history are constantly being seen in new lights, as scholarship moves on. So why is it that only some periods are 'fenced of''? Indeed, he also says he wants the Armenian massacres, the Holodomor and the Nakba to be scrutinised , again and again. He has never once denied,or tried to undermine the notion that a massive slaughter of Jews took place in WW2, and he isn't interested in minimising that slaughter, by debating whether it was 4,5, or 6 milllions that perished. So how exactly, is he a denier ?

      ( In my point of view though, Atzmon has at times, used some really unpleasant, offensive imagery on his pages when discussing these serious historical issues -- that was ill advised, and would tend to hurt or alienate people from his ideas )

    • Atzmon can be offensive in his writing sometimes.He also (occasionally) uses imagery on his website which some may consider unpleasant. But he is not anti Semitic -- he is ( was ) a Jew, and (was ) a right wing Zionist -- what is wrong then, with criticising what one was, or is? And, he doesn't criticise Jews indiscriminately, as an anti Semite would -- he is taking deliberate shots at *powerful, organised, establishment Jewry*, or those Jews he sees as being racist,exclusive,or arrogant,or those that wield their power unjustly -- Atzmon targets those Jewish groups, much in the same way that many people justifiably did ( and still do ) direct a lot of energy at savaging the WASP culture and power structure ( if you were a student in the late 60's right up to the mid 80's, you'll know whole college courses, especially in the Humanities, were often defined by having a powerful anti- WASP focus, which was also typical in much literature of the time.) When did you last hear Atzmon criticising, say, Azeri Mountain Jews, Iraqi Jews, Iranians Jews or Ethiopian Jewish groups? He hasn't, and you probably won't find much mention of those Jewish groups in his work, unless he is savaging a Sephardi or Mizrahi working in the Israeli power structure.

      He is also not against Jewishness as a religion -- he sees Judaism as a spiritual expression/seeking, on a par with other religious doctrines. He supports Torah Jewish groups, and attacks Talmudic Jewish notions, which he sees as supremacist and hegemonic.

      What I'd dearly like to know though, is why does Mr Weiss consider Jews to be an 'elite group'? I find that line to be far more offensive than Atzmon's ideas actually.

  • 'Don't Play in Tel Aviv! Apartheid is Not Punk Rock!': An Open Letter to Jello Biafra and the Guantanamo School of Medicine
    • You mean....you mean....those punk rock stars didn't mean ANY of it? You mean....you mean......their rebel stance wasn't for real after all ? You mean to tell me.....they were just after our cash, and just wanted to be....rock n roll stars?

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