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Total number of comments: 299 (since 2009-12-26 23:23:42)

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  • Israel supporters target New America Foundation for upcoming event with Max Blumenthal
  • Hoenlein says Obama will pick Hagel for 'Ministry' of Defense -- whoops, make that Defense Department
    • There was this precious tidbit from Hoenlein's interview towards the end:

      The real mesage is that we all have to be united. ... Jews have to put aside differences today to recognize that we are facing challenges that need all our our resources, every Jew, everybody that cares. And if we are united we can unite the rest of the world around us. But if they see our divisions we drive people away and they get confused and they don't understand. And it means political leaders and religuous leaders from other sectors - we have to bring everyone together if we are going to meet the challenges that future generations will hold us to account for what we do now because their security - their lives - will be at stake in these decisions.

      Precious. -N49.

  • Obamas' Christmas card gets thumbs down over cranberries and trifle
  • IDF spokesman posts blackface photo of himself as Obama, then issues non-apology
    • You can't make this shit up. The person in charge of furthering Israel's good image via social media is found to have posted a picture of himself in blackface on Facebook, along with a reference to Obama. That's gold, baby, gold.

      What does this say about Tablet, the rag that just did a fawning profile of the operation "Sacha" led? Did they not see this picture? Or did they see the picture and omit mention of it? Someone should ask. -N49.

  • The war in the West Bank
  • Ceasefire terms are almost identical to those after Cast Lead 4 years ago
    • How can Beinhart publish this guy? See:

      Count the outright fabrications:

      "Hamas initiated the current round of hostilities against Israel at this particular moment not at Iran’s behest, but because it felt emboldened by the rise of Islamist allies in the region,"

      "Ever since it assumed control of the Gaza Strip by force of arms, "

      "For its part, Israel responded as severely as it did to Hamas’s provocations (firing an anti-tank missile as an IDF jeep on the Israeli side of the border; "

      "it continues to oppose progress toward a two-state solution."

      The author constructs a fantasy out of whole cloth. How can we take Beinhart seriously? -N49.

  • Christian leaders will not be cowed into silence about widespread human rights violations
    • To add emphasis to the rabbi's point, pls see the following.

      This is a clip of an anti immigration protest in Tel aviv. The idea here is to influence the election.

      Shocking. Are these people that clueless? Or are they just so brazen that they feel norms of civilized behaviour don't apply to them? Methinks the latter.

  • Exile and the Prophetic: Chomsky’s absent ‘Jewish’
    • As a quick addendum / clarification to my post above (still at the moderators): I did not want to imply that just because there is a streak of ethnic nationalism within a community it does not imply that it is intrinsic to that community that there be ethnic nationalism. Pierre Trudeau was a Quebecer and also a great universalist who chastised the separtists as being petty provincialists. Same goes for Israel. Just because one is jewish does not mean one is destined to become an ethnic nationalist.

      I know you don't want to discuss this anymore but I just don't know how one can discuss zionism without recognizing it for what it so plainly is. -N49.

    • @ Bruce

      >> Nationalists demand loyalty from citizens. This is exactly the kind of language you heard from 19th century nationalists.


      It appears from my perspective, at least, that you are not fully clear on the distinction between ethnic and civil nationalism. Sean and Annie did a good job in trying to walk you through it, but to no apparent avail.

      Ethnic nationalism is premised on who the citizens are (based on race, language, religion, culture, etc.) whereas civic nationalism is premised on shared ideas the citizens believe in. The US is an example of civic nationalism. A better example is Switzerland -- here we have. French, German and. Italian citizens all proudly boasting of their Swiss identity, this via shared Swiss values of limited central government, strong property rights, etc.

      While Canada is for the most part a society based on civic nationalisn, there does exist a strain of ethnic nationalism in Quebec amongst the separatists. This is where I first got a taste of this philosophy. It is a nasty piece of work. The chant at the time was Le Quebec au Quebecois. As an Anglo, I knew they were not referring to me -- I could have had roots back 200 years in the province but I would never be Quebecois, I would never belong there. Ethnic nationalism is profoundly alienating and illiberal.

      Zionism is just another form of ethnic nationalism. There appears to be discomfort at this because of the implications. For example, it would be absurd to separate Quebec nationalism from the French language and concepts of pur laine kin folk. But to pursue a parallel analysis into Zionism is to expose yourself to accusations of anti-semitism.

      I don't know how one gets around this. I do know, however, that to deny the political genus that Zionism belongs to is to misread the beast at hand.


  • Extremist youth group storms French mosque after releasing anti-Arab manifesto
  • If only it was just one tweet: One activist's experience in the 'Our Land' Facebook group
    • @Bruce

      >>I fear you slander Phil here. Phil has never written a statement such as

      Several things here.

      1. I (obviously) never meant to imply that Phil held these views. Insofar as my post could have been misconstrued, I apologize.

      2. Berlin herself claims she did not write that. Now, i agree that Berlin has come off as being a little flaky, but you should have nonetheless included the fact that she denied making the statement.

      3. Bruce, your lack of tolerance for alternative or "offensive" views is alarming and gives off the faint whiff of a totalitarian streak. As per your post elsewhere, do you really want to shut down the comments section? Wow. We'd all be well served to read Phil's words again, this from upthread:

      "One of my themes here is that Jews are strong enough and well-situated enough, and the principle of free speech is strong enough, for us to have an open discussion about these things, with everyone participating, without a pogrom starting.”

      If you can't deal with this, Bruce, go find yourself another sandbox to play in. -N49.

    • @Schmuel

      >> seen, Abunimah, MW, Today in Palestine and others have actually exercised a lot of caution and circumspection: addressing the issue after it had already gone public, giving Greta the opportunity to explain ...

      Do you really think that “Zionist tactics” were used to “silence” Greta? <<

      I don't see it in quite the same way. Greta did explain, but her accusers then insisted that she betray a confidence and disclose the contents of a private FB page. In other words, she was frog-marched off a plank.

      The group she administered was, in passing, no more offensive than that seen here in the early days. See upthread.

      So yes, this episode does have the whiff of Zionist tactics. Taint with the charge of anti-semitism and then compel the accused to show otherwise.

      I should also say that while I don't think Phil's original post was the site's finest hour, I commend our host on allowing the full and vibrant discussion that followed. Regards -N49.

    • @Schmuel:

      >> I don’t want to get into any philosophical questions about what truly makes an anti-semite, the fact is that Greta is responsible for this current sh*t storm

      But the fact o the matter is that Greta was smeared as an anti-semite, notwithstanding what TodayInPalestine says now, a fair bit after the fact. The same tactics used to silence critics of Israel were turned on one on their own.

      This was a) bad tactics and b) poor form. -N49.

    • >>My impression is that Greta (1) has a tendency to make very confused statements (like referring to herself in the third person, being confused about getting on a plane vs. a train), (2) is very anti-Zionist,

      Yeah, my impression (and again, i would not know her if she rear-ended my moped) is that Berlin is a bit of a nut. But you have to be a bit of a but to get the idea to run a blockade into Gaza with a ship full of activists. If you weren't a nut, you wouldn't do it. A movement like this needs its nuts.

      The more I think about this, the more this whole brouhaha appears to be a internecine power squabble laced with personality conflicts. It reminds of a bad flashback from my college days. If the Movement is going to be successful, it will have to grow up a bit. --N49.

    • @Today

      >>I won’t keep quiet about anything that is harmful to my cause.

      Not asking you to "keep quiet."

      >> Which elected officials are you talking about?

      See below + sundry posts by Hostage. I didn't know Hamas was a group of zionist stooges.

      >> We do not need to accept any “pro-Palestinian” voice into this movement simply because you guys want us to.

      As a human being I take exception when anyone smears another human being as being a bigot / anti-semite without evidence or justification. Slander is wrong. I don't care who you are or where you're from. Slander is wrong.

      >>Do you also go to African-American communities and enforce your opinions on them?

      I am not "enforcing my opinion". I am voicing my opinion. Do you have a problem with that?

      >>Your privilege is that you think people (who happen to be white) can do or say whatever it is they want and that the we (the Palestinians) should be accepting and OK with any of that regardless of how damaging it is to our cause.

      Huh? How the hell do you know who I am or what color my skin is?

      >> If Greta is not a racist then why the hell don’t one of you pull her aside and tell her that she keeps shoving her foot deep down her own throat?

      I had no idea who Greta even was five days ago. I wouldn't know her if she rear-ended my moped. Her only mistake as I see it is that she tweeted in the wrong place. Then the holier-than-thou crowd went ballistic and created this god-awful mess.

      If you think this furthers your cause you are mistaken. -N49

    • Annie,

      Re: "n49, actual elected representatives? "

      I was referring to the Hostage post here:

      "For whatever reasons, Palestinians are not flooding the internet or mailing lists with denunciations like those that have targeted Atzmon and Berlin."


      "The hasbara fellowship talking points that go completely unanswered are invariably about official party statements or remarks made by major party leaders or cabinet ministers, including Abbas, Rantisi, Meshaal, and Nasrallah who’ve publicly claimed that the Holocaust was a myth invented by Jews or funded by Zionists and that the 6 million figure was a fantastic lie, e.g."

      Read the entire post. Why is TodayInPalestine giving us the gears when her own elected leaders (eg Hamas) hold far, far more scandalous views? -N49.

    • Annie,

      I was here back in 2007. And Joachim what's-his-name was all over the comment sections back then, with or without so-called "context." Indeed, there was very little difference between what transpired in the Mondo pages then and what Wolf was so indignant about as per the post above re Greta's FB page. But no one issued grand missives disqualifying Phil from the Movement, nota bene.

      I agree with you, though. As a site becomes more popular the administrator assumes a greater public responsibility. I get that.

      But Greta's page was private. And as a private group, the same responsibilities do not accrue. It was unfair, then, for leaders in the community to come down on Greta as though she were administering a public group, impugning her reputation in the process.

      It was also very much unfair.

      If someone had done this to Phil back in '07, I would have reacted with the same passion as I have here.

      I think we should all pause for a moment and contemplate what "solidarity" really means. If we truly understand the essence of this word, perhaps we won't find ourselves in this unfortunate situation again.

      Best regards -N49.

    • >> but stop these hysterics against Palestinians because we don’t want her representing us.

      TodayInPalestine, I am sorry, but on what authority do you say this? Are you an elected Palestinian official? Is there an established constituency that has handed you their proxies? If so, please elaborate.

      Otherwise, your cause might be better served by policing what your actual elected representatives have to say about the holocaust, statements that pale in comparison to anything that Greta has ever said. To turn a phrase, prudence begins at home. -N49.

    • It remains, Annie, that if Greta was guilty of a knee-capping offence, then so was Phil. Put differently, if Greta is an anti-semite, then so is Phil. This much is now very obvious.

      You now excuse Phil because Phil's "offense" occurred before the blog "got so much traffic," to quote you above.

      Like, say, the sort of minimal traffic you'd expect to see in a private FB page? -N49.

    • If I remember correctly, Joachim what-s-his-name used to post here.

      Phil later banned him and rightly so, for the guy is an obsessed nutbar. But at the sametime, Phil was not condemned as an anti-semite for having tolerated him.

      It may well be appropriate that Berlin step down. Referring to herself in the third person may be reason enough (!). It is branding her a bigot that I object to. Pot, kettle, etc. -N49.

  • Norr responds to Ash: Who is trying to get the solidarity movement back on track and who is merely fanning the flames of division?
    • >> I would have supported that comment except that they are holding up most comments on your previous piece – good, bad and neutral (I know that for a fact – heard from a number of people to that effect).

      Yes, comments are being held up on that thread but I am not sure they are being held up uniformly. A few of my posts have been pending while those of others, written later, have been posted. One just has to look at the timestamps to figure this out.

      I guess it is fair to slow a debate down but it is not so fair when this is done selectively.

      I am at least glad Norr got the chance to respond here. He makes a better case than I could anyway. --N49

  • Estelle and the freedom of association
    • I want to know whom Ash considers an anti-semite / bigot. ?? Don't pussy foot around -- spit it out! -N49.

  • Free Gaza's Col. Ann Wright disinvited from Swedish Boat to Gaza
    • Annie,

      >> the discussion of the private FB group was not made public, ever.

      Do you see your mistake, Annie? You are asking that Berlin violate confidential relationships. This was a **private** group. Berlin has no right to violate the understanding with the other members of the group unless **all** members agreed. If it was a group of one -- Berlin herself and no one else -- then Berlin would have had full authority to release the screenshots. But insofar as other members had entered into a confidential relationship, Berlin had no authority to comply with your request.

      As it was, presumably, Berlin asked the members of the group "what should we do in the face of this request?" And, presumably, the group discussed this and decided that the best and fairest way to comply was to ask volunteers to come forward to vouch for Berlin. Again, if even **one** member objected to releasing screen shots it would have been improper to release the screen shots.

      I find it highly objectionable that Berlin was put into this position. Namely: violate a confidential relationship or be branded an anti-semite. This is an immoral request.

      David Samel is a lawyer and understands the common law issues surrounding duties of confidence. A duty of confidence is a duty that falls just beneath a duty of trust, the highest duty the law recognizes. This is not a trivial consideration. Yet the powers that be demanded that Berlin violate this duty. Or be branded an anti-semite.

      I don't post here that often anymore. But I am still very proud of the work you guys are doing. I guess I lit up on this topic because I found it so disappointing that, with all the angels on your side, you could turn and act in so immoral a fashion. -N49.

    • >> [Berlin] may be blameless but her faux pas was serious enough to put the burden on her to show it, and she hasn’t.

      She hasn't? She a) apologized; b) explained what happened; and c) sought and received public corroboration from the private FB group she meant to post the link to. David, what else should she have been expected to do?

    • >> Had Ann Wright not gone public on this, there would be no brouhaha and nobody at MW would even had been aware what happened, as there was no announcement from Ship-to-Gaza that I could find.

      Wboa!! According to Ann's note, she was asked to leave at the behest of pro-Israelis based in Sweden. Presumably, they were given an ultimatum. Needless to say, then, Ann's decision would have been publicised either way.

      First we blame Greta. Now we blame Ann. You guys are *classy*.

    • >> Not only did she accuse Ali Abunimah of issuing fatwas

      Well, that's pretty much what he did, yes? Plane/train Ali branded Berlin an anti-semite before the world.

      As for the back channel after talk, well, please do tell. I have no doubt there must have been some heated discussion behind the scenes, but us plebs have not been privy to that.

      All we know is that Berlin mis-tweeted a reference to some nutbar video, apologized for as much yet was nonetheless dispatched into the wilderness as a result.

      Then came the oh-so-predictable pile-on. Who ever tbought the Zionist crazies would ever be appeased by a sacrificial scalp? Surely we should know better by now.


    • Doesn't make any sense to me either, that comment. But surely, Adam, this latest news should give occasion for you and Phil and Annie to reconsider what many have felt was a capricious and short-sighted decision on your part? -n49.

    • Mcohen, you did not answer the question.

    • Toivo,

      Two days ago you were front and center calling for Berlin's head. Now you lament the damage this hath wrought.

      For myself, I pointed out that once you start running it becomes much more difficult to turn and fight.

      Now here we are. What a mess. -N49.

  • No room for racism in a movement working for equality and freedom
    • > takes a certain political sophistication to understand why she must go,

      I have not seen a single "sophosticated" rebuttal out of you or anyone else to the cogent arguments against the knee-capping of Berlin. Or do you consider plane/train Ali's arguments to be sophisticated?

      That parlour room poseurs like yourself are even in a position to determine whether frontline activists like Berlin "must go" turns my stomach. She has done more to advance the cause of Palestinian justice than 1000 of your type could hope to accomplish in 1000 years.

    • >> For those attacking Mondoweiss for being principled and honest here, you should read Ali Abunimah’s comment above.


      I read what Ali Abuminah said. Apparently, Berlin is an anti-semite because, (in part): "in one version of the story you were on a train to Toronto, and in another version, the next day, you were getting on a plane to Canada."

      Did Mr. Abuminah stop to consider that Berlin might have been taking the *train* to get to the airport where she was going to board a *plane* to Toronto?

      I don't know either. But then again, I am not the one branding Berlin an anti-semite.

    • >>Both Phil and I emailed you last Saturday and you continued a conversation with Phil at least until Tuesday. We both asked for documentation of the Facebook group you referred to to corroborate your version of events. This would clarify, and I think end, the story. We never received it, and while that is certainly your prerogative, questions will persist until it’s shared.


      You say you needed "corroboration" from Berlin as to her explanation. What do you mean by this? What would have satisfied this need? The Facebook page whence the link came? Ali Abunimah already has this -- you could have simply asked him for it. Or did you need the Facebook page to which Berlin intended to copy the link? Is that it?

      It is entirely fair of us -- the Mondoweiss community -- to ask you what you needed to see so as not to damn this woman as an anti semite and in this way effectively end her career.

      While you are at it, with Berlin 's permission, would you please publish the full correspondence between yourself, Phil and Berlin. I for one would like to see the sort of due diligence you undertook before cutting this woman off at the knees.

      Thank-you. -N49.

  • 8 former board members of Free Gaza Movement deplore anti-Semitic messaging
  • Free Gaza Movement Twitter controversy leads Jewish Voice for Peace to distance itself from group
    • >> it's called damage control

      Fair enough. But what if there was no damage in the first case? Berlin **referenced** a nasty tract. She did not *endorse* it.

      And what happens? The left scatters.

      Once they get you on the run it becomes very difficult to turn and fight.

    • I saw the tweet. There is nothing in it to suggest Berlin endorsed the views in the referenced video.

      This is ass-covering by the anti zionist left in fear of the very folks you chastise by day. And your opponents smell this fear.

      A sorry day for the movement.

    • Can somebody please link to the egregious tweet? Referencing anti -semitic material is not the same as endorsing it.??

    • >> that’s different than printing “Zionists operated the concentration camps”

      Did Berlin say this? Or did she merely reference someone who did? My understanding is the latter. I could be wrong. But I think the onus is on you to demonstrate as much. ??

    • Alex, see my comment re annie below. But yes, this is a smear job in the same tradition as Thomas.

    • >>what are you talking about? helen thomas didn’t come close to implying zionists operated the concentration camps.

      Annie, my god, where did Berlin imply zionists operated the concentration camps?

      See, Alex. *that* is the smear, the implication that Berlin is a neo-nazi and the onus is now on her prove otherwise. Out of Annie's mouth no less.

      It has been shamefull how Berlin's friends have chucked her overboard as quickly as tbey have. . The Josh Blocks of the world will have taken notice.

    • Greta Berlin just got Helen Thomas'd.

  • 'New Yorker' fiction parody contest award winners, at last
    • How about a Mondoweiss embroidered keffiyeh-tzitzit matching set? Now, that would be hip. -N49.

  • 'Al Jazeera' reports Syrian regime committed Houla massacre in effort to ignite sectarian conflict
    • Eleanor:

      I now see that my initial comment provided a distraction for the regime apologists who would otherwise merrily keep on spouting their usual nonsense in the guise of ‘reserving judgement’ on the massacres.

      Hostage has done a pretty thorough job in showing that there is no definitive evidence either way in determining "who" committed the massacres at Houla. You don't acknowledge this. You should.

      Moreover, it seems a priori more likely that the FSA committed the atrocities. The reasoning is as follows: The rebels can't hope to overcome the Syrian military all by themselves. They need Western help, (or at least someone's help.) The only way to garner such help is through sympathy and all the commensurate support that that engenders. This is all the more important because the rebels have no obvious cred or popular support. To distract and simplfy -- to manage the narrative -- benefits the FSA greatly.

      By contrast, Assad had nothing to gain by Houla and much to lose.

      So without knowing another thing about the incident, I would bet it was the FSA who dun it. They had far more incentive to undertake such a heinous crime. Am I spewing nonsense here? -N49.

  • Why Israel is 'singled out'
    • >> There are horrible human rights violations in many African countries, ...

      How many African countries were patronized by American politicians of late? Or ever? Israel insinuates itself in to the corridors of power. Romney goes to Jersalem (and not "some African country"), and half the media follows him, live broadcasting all the way. Who is singling out whom? -N49.

    • There is little question that, around the world, Israel is singled out in a way that is ridiculously unfair ... Globally, there is no question that an utterly disproportionate amount of the UN’s time is spent dealing with the Israel-Palestine issue, and that this is largely driven by Arab politics, not a concern for human rights.

      Actually, Israel is singled out by the US Congress. How many visits this year? Compare that number is to visits from congressmen & women to Canada, the US' largest trading partner. I will take a stab at it and say the scorecard is 100-0. And this is to say nothing about the presidential hopefuls. What's the line on Romney showing in Ottawa anytime soon?

      Israel singles itself out. And it does so by design. There is an extant political goal to insinuate itself into the wheel house of global power politics. And then when views antithetical to Israel's rather atrocious record peep up -- you're picking on us!!

      Please stop the whinging when what goes around comes around. -N49.

  • Richard Cohen and the Jewish man's burden
    • Krauss-- your spiel about IQ is outdated nonsense. See my link above. Why is it that the IQ of Mexicans in Mexico is less than the IQ of Mexicans in the US?

      Genetic origins of IQ is junk science. N49.

    • Yikes!! The "jews are smart" meme seems to be running amok here tonight, supported, apparently, by the liberal progressive set here.

      Gimme a break, guys. Is a population rich because it's smart? Or smart because it's rich? Best evidence supports the latter. See here:

      A revised interpretation then is : zionists steal land, get rich, turn smart.

      Not the other way around. -n49.

  • Announcing the 'New Yorker' parody fiction contest -- put your spin on history!
    • NorthOfFortyNine June 30, 2012 at 1:05 pm

      Late entry, please consider


      Cindy had done it for the money -- it was the shortest path between her folk's home in Lafayette and a diploma in veterinary technology. and all the bucks that went with that. Field exercises four week-ends per year -- that's all they wanted. The deal seemed cold enough. Then came the letter in the mail.

      Baghdad in summer was bad enough, but the cinder block hellhole where Cindy was stationed cooked your brain like Jambalaya shrimp. Most of the action went down in the next wing but she still heard shit, the long halls acting as acoustic guides. Her posting could have been worse -- she could have been charged with a bunch of men. As it was, the duty cycle was light. Boredom reigned. Cindy spent a lot of her time lying on her bunk, thumbing through old porn mags.

      "Sgt. Boulard! C Block. Now!"

      That's how the call would usually come.

      Cindy would sit up and cluck twice. "C'mon, Sam," she would motion. "time to go." Sam would lift his head, half-cocked, and lumber to his feet. His tongue would pant like nothing she'd ever seen back home. "That's a good boy," she'd say as she scratched his ear and affixed his leash. "That's a good boy."

      Then Cindy herself would get to her feet, don cap on cropped hair and, camera in one hand, Sam on the other, exit her room and head down the hall.

  • 'New Yorker' story recycles Israeli propaganda on death of Gazan family in 2006
  • More on the Barghouti attack at Qalandiya on Friday
    • NorthOfFortyNine April 1, 2012 at 3:18 pm

      While they were walking down towards the checkpoint, unidentified individuals attempted to co-opt the peaceful non-violent protest.

      I know suggesting that sometimes people incite violence under the flag of the opposing group is to invite being called a member in good standing of the tinfoil hat brigade. Except that sometimes it is true. This sh-t happens.

      Please see here for a clip of Quebec police officers being unmasked by protestors at a G8 conference in Quebec a few years ago. The SQ (as the police are known) admitted in a press conference to having done this. Busted. Please see the clip. It is eye-opening. -N49.

  • Sullivan forces American attention on the settlements
    • Yeah, Annie. I have been following Sully's blog more and more. It is an amusing ride and great daily read. Love the way things are shaping up on I/P. Sullivan is pounding Goldberg and is now under his skin big time.

      Thanks for the coverage and colour commentary.

      I support Beinhart 'cause, even though he remains clueless in many regards, he moves the ball down the field. At the same time I support Atzmon 'cause, even though he is the equivalent of a stupid ten yard penalty, he speaks many truths.

      Best -N49.

    • Phil has quipped in the past that this is a conversation Jews must have. For me, I am content watching Sully pound Goldberg. -N49.

  • 'Peter Beinart's offense against liberalism' and the spiritual crisis Zionism has wrought
    • >> Excellent link Bumblebye…this young man…Saar Szekely

      That was great. Saar Szekely. Wow. That guy can sell. -N49.

  • 'Safe European home'?
    • It would be interesting to discover the order of travel. Did he travel to Syria & Afghanistan and the like beforehand? And they then let him into Israel, his passport thusly stamped? Really? Something does not add up. -N49.

    • Good catch, Dan. I call bullshit too. That the killer, on a US no-fly list, was even admitted to Israel makes no sense. The dude was an unhinged plant. This does not exculpate him or his actions, but only the willfully blind would refuse to cast the net wider. -N49.

  • Establishment Jews attack Beinart over settlement boycott call
  • As I read this, I cringe
    • the western press never even mentioned their names.

      That's a very good point. Until the name is mentioned, you're nothing but a stat.

      I wonder how much it would cost to print the names of every person Western powers have killed in Iraq and Afphanistan in the NYT?

      And I wonder how many pages the ad would run? -N49.

    • "Tribalism Watch" From Goldblog:

      1) I can't stop thinking about Miriam Monsonego, and Arye and Gabriel Sandler, the three small children executed by a Muslim radical for the crime of being Jewish. I think every Jewish parent is in shock at the horror, even though the pace of these sorts of attacks seems to be accelerating. Monsonego's killing was especially horrifying; the murderer grabbed her by the hair, tried to shoot her in the head, but when his handgun failed, he pulled out another and successfully fired. The hatred this man felt for Jews is otherworldly, but it is born in this world. It is the outgrowth of an ideology of dehumanization that has spread across parts of the Muslim world.

      2) I can't stop thinking about another case of child-murder, that of Trayvon Martin. For those of you who aren't reading Ta-Nehisi on the subject, what are you waiting for?

      But wait -- wasn't Trayvon killed because he was black? Then why not say so? Why not say that he was killed for "the crime of being black"? And why not walk us through the lurid details as per "he murderer grabbed her by the hair, tried to shoot her in the head, but when his handgun failed,..."

      Instead, Trayvon becomes an afterthought, a placeholder for "balance." Some murders are more horrific than others, apparently. -N49.

      ps -- I would have placed this in an open thread but we don't have any.

    • you, [Shmuel], should write for us more.

      Yes, he should. -N49.

    • Shmuel,

      [Forgive me, for this is a spillover post from the Atzmon thread, but perhaps germane here...]

      I must say I stand greatly enlightened (and uplifted) by your exposition of the various Jewish humanists. My question to you is quick and dirty: where are these people now? Surely you'll understand if I lump Jewish Humanists into a category that is not dissimilar, in terms of girth, to that of, say, the "Swedes of Hawaiian descent" demographic. Again -- in the context of today's dynamic, where are your homies now?

      Regards -N49.

  • Wall Street firm slammed the door on young Warren Buffett for religious reasons
    • >>we’re heinz 57s thomson. mutts

      We're all mutts. To say otherwise is pretence. -N49.

  • Palestinian and Palestine-solidarity activists issue critique and condemnation of Gilad Atzmon
    • Thanks, Shmuel. I was hoping for a link to somethig Atzmon actually said or wrote. ?? -N49.

    • Although I was not born in Israel, my personal experience is of the far more racist and ethnocentric religious-Zionist educational system, in Israel and abroad. I broke with it and so did you. I don’t think Gilad has.

      Serious charges, Shmuel. Citation? -N49.

    • @ Toivo: Mearsheimer was sent a prepublication of Atzmon’s Wondering Who. He wrote some positive things about it. This predictably brought down much criticism. Mearsheimer wrote in his defense that he had no idea of who Atzmon was and was unfamiliar with his earlier writings. He was simply responding to the book.

      Toivos -- don't equivocate. Mearsheimer did not back down at all. He stood by his blurb. You insinuate he did not. Sorry, but this is bullshit innuendo. Why can't you guys accept that Atzmon has some serious and legit things to say, even if you don't like what he is saying?

      This smear job being perpretrated here has a real lobbyesque feel to it. -N49.

    • @ Donald: As for Mearsheimer and others who defend Atzmon, I’ve already outlined various reasons why someone might do that which don’t require anti-semitism, but here they are again, with one added.

      1. Ignorance of some of what he’s said, perhaps followed by an unwillingness to admit one has been wrong.

      Are you saying Mearsheimer is ignorant of what Atzmon wrote? If so, say so.

      2. Resentment over all the false charges of anti-semitism, which leads people to refuse to see the real thing when it’s in front of them.

      Do you believe Mearsheimer is this petty? Really? If so, say so.

      3. Simple stupid political partisanship. Our side good, their side bad. If someone is an anti-Zionist, he must be a good guy. Though this is similar to 2, I guess. People get so angry it’s like pulling teeth to get them to admit that anything said by someone against a self-proclaimed anti-Zionist could be true.

      Again, do you really think a dude of Mearsheimer's stature would be so petty?

      4. Anti-semitism.

      Well, I guess that settles it then!

      Donald, have you read The Wandering Who? -N49.

    • The only relevant question is whether the Palestinian liberation movement should be “granting it quarter”.

      Shmuel, I agree that it should not. The world is not ready and embracing a loudmouth like Atzmon would only set the movement back.

      I just take exception to this pile-on calling the guy a racist. Atzmon is not a racist. The name calling is beneath us. -N49.

    • @ Elliot: @N49 – I said “uniquely” i.e. equating Jewishness with exclusiveness. I’m sure as a Jew, I have my own unreflected racism, exclusiveness and other unseemly attitudes. That doesn’t make Jewish essentially any of those.

      How many times around here have we heard "Jews are smart"? Generalizng about jews here is a pastime, but only when the generalizations are flattering. And I am fine with that.

      I am not saying exclusiveness is a uniquely "jewish trait". But in my experience has it that there is a high degree of correlation between jewishness and exclusiveness. The writers at South Park (one of whom is jewish) have had the same experience. You, Elliot, have not. Maybe it is because you are jewish? Just askin'....

      Btw, here is a clip from the script for that South Park episode.

      Moses: Hold! [Kenny stops in his tracks as Kyle looks on. Kenny looks at Moses.] There is… an impurity.
      Garth: [still behind the tree] Oh no, he's on to me, Haman.
      Chief elder: [the Scouts gasp and Kenny droops] An impurity, Moses?
      Moses: This child here is not kosher.
      Kenny: (Uh oh.) [Garth looks, curious. Kyle rushes to Kenny's side, and the Scouts move in on them.] (Help me, Kyle! What are we gonna do?)
      Kyle: Don't worry. I know what to do.
      Chief elder: Scout Broflovski, have you defiled Jew Scouts by bringing a non-Hebrew to Jewbilee?! [the Scouts grow angry]
      Kyle: Elder, It's not my fault. He told me he was Jewish.
      Kenny: (What?!)
      Chief elder: A non-Jew has inflitrated Jew Scouts and looked upon the face of Moses! He must be dealt with!
      Kenny: (I'm telling you, it's Kyle you want. He's the one who tried to get me in here, and you know it.)
      Chief elder: You are banished from here. You must leave before the great eating of carrot cake.
      Kenny: (What?!)
      Kyle: He doesn't get cake??
      Moses: No cake for the impurity!
      Chief elder: Go now. You do not belong here. [points to the woods. Kenny comes out of the middle of the group and walks towards the woods. Kyle is sad for him. Kenny looks back, then faces forward and walks on]

    • @ Toivo: Anyone who propagates the views of Ernst Zudel

      Donald below "propagated the views" of Atzmon. So I am not quite sure you mean that. What I think you are trying to say is that Atzmon endorses the views of Zundel. Am I correct here?

      If so, please provide substantiaiton. To my knowledge he has never done so. To my knowledge, he is simply supporting Zundel's right to express his views without being thrown in jail. -N49.

    • @ Toivo: N49 what you are missing is that Atzmon is an antisemite and Phil is not.

      Phil is admittedly chauvanistic about many things jewish. That's the great thing about Phil -- is struggle with these issues is out in the open.

      But do I throw labels at Phil? Did I jump up and down at his "Church of Pedophila" remark? Etc.? Surely this forum needn't degrade into name calling, even as some would have it. -N49.

    • To the extent that being Jewish is tribal, how is that different from the American tribe, the NASCAR tribe or any other group?

      Barriers to entry, that's what. -N49.

    • @ Elliot -- . You said, as I read it, that a trait of "Jewishness" did not include "exclusivist tendiencies." That is how I read it.

      South Park suggests otherwise. My own experience, including being married to a jewish wife, suggest otherwise. Please don't lecture me. -N49.

    • Donald, Do you think Mearsheimer is a racist sympathizer? -N49.

    • I must say I feel uncomfortable with your self-appointed role as to what is acceptable discourse about what is acceptable discourse.

      I think all discourse is acceptable discourse, Donald. I say the more rope you give some people,the better.

      You may beg to differ. Apparently, you do. -N49.

    • @ Donald: Hardly anyone here on the anti-Zionist side would have any trouble seeing what is wrong with what Atzmon says if one just altered it a little bit and made it about Muslims.

      Like? Let me help you: "The Palestinians did not serve their own interests when they (or, more properly, their leadership) supported Saddam Hussein in the first gulf war. That is, they were in this way part agents of own further misery."

      Gasp!!! -N49.

    • @ Elliot: “Jewish” doesn’t mean exclusivist. Once you take Zionism out of mainstream American Jewish (as opposed to Israeli or Orthodox Jewish), you’re left with religious practice and mindset that is not exclusivist.

      Seriously? Not exclusivist? See South Park: "Jewbilee", Season 3, episode 9

      Question: Does Donald want to ban South Park as well? -N49.

    • Donald, Here is Mearsheimer on Atzmon thoughts on the agency issue, an issue you bring up in your post as per:

      "“The remarkable fact is they don’t understand why the world is beginning to stand against them in the same way they didn’t understand why the Europeans stood against them in the 1930s. Instead of asking why we are hated they continue to toss accusations on others”

      His basic point is that the Jewish boycott had negative consequences, which it did. In Atzmon’s narrative — and this is a very important theme in his book — Jews are not simply passive victims of other people’s actions. On the contrary, he believes Jews have considerable agency and their actions are not always wise. One can agree or disagree with his views about the wisdom of the Jewish boycott — and I happen to think he’s wrong about it — but he is not arguing that the Jews were “persecuting Hitler” and that this alleged “persecution” led to the Holocaust. In fact, he says nothing about the Holocaust in his post and he certainly does not justify in any way the murder of six million Jews.

      Donald, I must say I am uncomortable with your self-appointed role as to what is acceptable discourse and what is not. It is this sort of attitude that kept rational discussion of AIPAC and what-not in the closet for so many years. If you don't like Atzmon, then don't read him. -N49.

    • @ Donald: >> I don’t know. Did you look at the Atzmon quotes cited above? Are you comfortable with them?

      Atzmon has a very provocative way of saying things and is very much an in-your-face character. I can completely understand why the Palestinian Solidarity types don't want him anywhere near their movement. I get that. He is bad for ticket sales.

      But when it comes to substance, well, I don't see it. Mearsheimer didn't either. --N49.

    • >> So, he sees Zionism as an American Jewish problem and offers an American Jewish solution.

      Fair enough. Atzmon also sees it as a "Jewish problem" w/o geographical bounds, albeit. What am I missing? -N49.

    • At the risk of getting my head cut off, here is what I have trouble squaring:

      Atzmon sees Zionism as "Jewish problem" -- fair characterization?

      Yet Weiss sees the solution to zionism as one that is necessarily jewish in nature. Sure, Wiess says that non-Jews must be brought in to the mix, but there remains an exculsivist element to his prescriptions. Fair characterization?

      I can't get my head around this. Can someone help? -N49.

  • The end of the 'two-state solution' is the beginning of a more just future
    • the benefit is that there is no *chaos* phase,...

      I completely agree that there is real risk to a 1SS approach. In fact, I would say that pogroms are being planned now. The rubric will be "civil war" (as per eee) but these will just be naked porgroms designed to make Palestinians flee. This is in the works now.

      That said, clinging to a 2ss sol'n weds the mindset to a state that is incongruous to the reality on the ground now. There are no two states! One can blather on as much as one wants about international law, but the reality is that there is now one state. I don't see how it helps to deny reality.

      So if there is to be a 2ss sol'n, it has to be apporached like Canada-Quebec or Ukraine-Russia or the few other cases where a country split. And to do this first requires the recognition of civil rights (referenda, etc.). That is the starting point for all solutions. -N49.

    • A tour de force. Should be disseminated far and wide. -N49.

  • Norman Finkelstein slams the BDS movement calling it 'a cult'
    • @ Hostage: No expropriation of land owned by an Arab in the Jewish State (by a Jew in the Arab State) shall be allowed except for public purposes.

      Rather wide berth the phrase "for public purposes" is it not? Is taking land from one (private) person and giving it to another (private) person solely on the basis of religion / ethnicity a legitimate exercise of state power? Is the UN giving sanction to this sort action? Do you approve?

      For example: Suppose Quebec Nationalists get all uppity (again) and drive Westmount Jews into Ontario and upstate Vermont. Quebec government seizes jewish property and hands it over to "pur laine" Quebecers. Quebec government then offers to send a cheque in compensation. Hostage: Are you hip with that? -N49.

    • @ Fred: Rights exist in a framework of laws.

      No, rights superseed laws. -N49.

    • Hostage,

      I know it is foolish to wade into the ring with you, but:

      Resolution 181(II) allowed the states to expropriate property from the members of ethnic and religious minority groups.

      What does this mean? That the UN provides for the expropriation of a refugee's property willy-nilly? Please explain. -N49.

  • A lull on this site
  • Jewish substitution and the white gaze
    • Speaking of tapping the "passion of Aipac" (if I can put it that way), look at MJ Rosenberg. There ain't no religion like that of the converted. Alas, good point. -N49.

  • Both sides are wrong in the ‘Israel Firsters’ debate
    • ... the decision to criticise them because they are showing loyalty to a ‘foreign’ country, rather than on the basis that they are enabling an injustice, indicates that what really matters to you is loyalty to your favoured state, rather than adherence to moral principles. ... and quite apart from its obvious tendency to slip into antisemitic accusations against American Jews (see e.g. the charge of “Fifth Columnist” levelled by a commentator above), it’s also incoherent: why on earth should “dual loyalties” (or indeed hundreds or millions of loyalties) be a bad things? Why on earth should anyone be obliged to put the alleged interests of something called “the US” above everything else?

      That is fair enough if the question is considered from the perspective of the individual. I don't think anyone here would question Adelson's right to put the interests of Israel over those of the US. But that is not what we are talking about.

      What raises hackles is Adelson's attempt to use his influence in such a way that the US govt act in Israel's interest. I think we agree that a state has a moral obligation to act in the interests of its subjects -- that is what it is there for. By co-opting the state, Adelson effectively forces that state's subjects to act against their own interests, which is a violation of those individuals' rights.

      The principle becomes more clear is we compare soccer clubs instaed of nations. An individual can support any soccer club he wants. You can live in Manchester and support Chelsea. That's your right. But what is not right is to influence ManU such that they throw games when playing Chelsea.

      Anyone who did attempt to do this rightly deserves to be called a "Fifth Columnist".

      My two cents. -N49.

  • Archbishop Desmond Tutu endorses PennBDS conference
    • The news round-up posts function a bit like an open thread.

      I don't drop by there often enough. Thanks. -N49.

    • Don't mean to threadjack, but has this been reported on yet?

      Phil comes in #1 on the ADL blacklist. He has been congratulated by Max B and Ali A. Let me third that! -N49.

      ps - Request to moderators -- could we please have an daily open thread post? I have often found myself wanted to say something but without a place to say it. I don't want to be rude and barge in on another conversation. I thought a daily open thread might help provide a grab-bag forum helpful to all. ?? -N49.

  • AIPAC met quietly with Dem thinktank to deplore writings critical of Israel, and took its leaders to Israel
    • Rosenberg deferred comment on this matter, directing queries to Ari Rabin-Havt, Media Matters’ executive vice president. In an interview, Rabin-Havt said the terminology was beside the point.

      “When we're talking war and peace, the facts that tweets come up is symbolic of how the conversation has gone awry,” said Rabin-Havt, who said the survival of Israel was critical to him personally. “We should debate this. As Israel is one of our largest recipients of foreign aid, this is an American and Israeli issue.”

      Bravo! -N49.

  • New checkpoint method: gassing Palestinian cars with unknown chemical
    • For once I will lean the other way. Is there any evidence a gas is being injected? How do you know there aren't just taking an air sample looking for explosive residue? That they remove the filter and apparently take it in for inspection suggests that gas is being taken in, not ejected out.

      Just askin' -N49.

  • Iran sanctions backlash-- oil buyers ditch dollar
  • New additions to the Mondoweiss comments policy
    • Sean, Do youneed a facebook account for friendfeed? -n49.

    • Sean,

      I hadn't seen the FBI files before. Fascinating. I urge Mondoweiss'ers to review these. We are not allowed to have a long thread about this, but I strongly strongly urge Mondoweiss'ers to review these FBI files. I can't be emphatic enough. -N49.

    • False flag ops are simply very effective.

      Mind experiment: Suppose a website purporting to represent a jewish community weekly were to, at a critical juncture, publish a column suggesting the President's head was fair game for lack of fealty to Israel.


      The anti-zionist / neocon / WaPo tow-line was greatly undermined by Adler's inopportune remarks.

      Now, think how easy it would have been to have faked all this?

      Especially if the suggestied narrative were to have reinforced pre-existing beliefs?

      And if not that, (or maybe on top of that), some minor vandalism in Dearborn with a sinister-esque website to explain it all?

      Cheap and effective, that's what I say.... -N49.

    • We just want to avoid long threads of conspiracy theorizing.

      Done. -N49.

    • Fwiw, Adam, I have never introduced 9/11 into a thread. I agree this is not the place to delve into it. You will only have heard a peep out of me when somone else brings it up to backstop their (noxious) argument. (Check the archives!)

      So the new policy allows for introducing the "fact" into an argument but forbids any challenge of that "fact"? This implies MW has taken a position and aims to enforce an orthodox adherence to its position.

      Why not stay agnostic and forbid mention of the event regardless of the context in which it is used? This seems a more impartial approach. -N49.

    • At the risk of being banned (!)... Adam, you say:

      "Of course you can still discuss 9/11 and it is central to many of the concerns of the site that you mention."

      I agree 9/11 is central. In the "War of Ideas in the Middle East", 9/11 provides the fulcrum of the debate, at least for many; and for the others, it provides context for the kool-aid acid trip western countries have been rockin`on about this last decade. Seriously: take away 9/11-- excise it from the history books -- how much changes? Everything changes... None of us would be here were it not for 9/11. Mondoweiss would not exist were it not for 9/11.

      Now we can't talk about it? Or we can talk about it, but only in certain ways?

      What if someone else brings it up and uses the event to butress his/her argument? We have to just eat it? Can we smirk? Or will any indication of apotasy be met with harshly?

      This is like trying to discuss foreign policy on dKos without being able to mention the Israel lobby.

      Can't we do better? -N49.

  • Military indoctrination at Nazi death camps stokes... universal democratic values!
    • @ Split -- That link is shocking. If even half of it is true it is shocking. Where is eee? These people have no manners at all. Why does Poland put up with it? -N49.

  • Report: Israel to give US only 12-hour warning before attacking Iran because Netanyahu doesn't trust Obama
    • @ Charon: "There is no route that Israel can take to Iran without going through US military-monitored airspace.

      Yes, and as importantly, there is no way iran can strike back at Israel witout doing same. That is key. The whole point is to draw the US into the resulting mess. All Israel has to do is drop one tiny bomb inside Iranian territory during the US election and you almost guarentee a regional conflagration. Which, as far as Israel is concerned, is the whole idea.

      Now, if Iran would only see this and thwart Israel designs by not taking the bait, well, that would be ballsey indeed. Don't take the bait! -N49.

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