Commenter Profile

Total number of comments: 627 (since 2009-12-26 23:23:42)

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  • David Remnick erases Norman Finkelstein
  • Gingrich comment that Palestinians are an 'invented people' enters primary debate
    • Well said.

    • nobody invented me

      "Peoples", not persons! ;)

    • From WaPo debate FactCheckORama:

      “These people are terrorists. They teach terrorism in their schools. They have textbooks that say, ‘If there are 13 Jews and nine Jews are killed, how many Jews are left?’ We pay for those textbooks through our aid money. ”


      During the debate, Gingrich reiterated his controversial claim the Palestinians are an “invented people,” which has been criticized in some Republican quarters. But he also raised a new charge about Palestinian textbooks, which he said the United States pays for “through our aid money.”

      This funding claim is correct only in an indirect sense: The United States is the largest single-state donor for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), providing nearly $250 million in 2011. As a recent Congressional Research Service report made clear, this funding is closely scrutinized by Congress. But UNRWA underwrites the schooling of Palestinian refugees and thus provides money for textbooks

      The issue of Palestinian textbooks is controversial, one the Palestinian Authority says it is addressing. We cannot immediately find evidence of the statement claimed by Gingrich, and it is not clear if he is referring to a statement in one of the newer textbooks.

      There have been a number of reports by pro-Israel groups that say the textbooks in Palestinian schools reinforce hatred of Jews. But one Palestinian expert has argued that studies in English that claim to show such bias in Palestinian textbooks are “based on innuendo, exaggeration, and downright lies.”

      Here is what the State Department’s human rights report said about the new Palestinian text books:

      The PA Ministry of Education and Higher Education completed the revision of its primary and secondary textbooks in 2006. International academics concluded the textbooks did not incite violence against Jews, but showed imbalance, bias, and inaccuracy. Some maps in Palestinian textbooks did not depict the current political reality, showing neither Israel nor the settlements. Palestinian textbooks, used in Palestinian schools, as well as in Jerusalem municipality-administered schools in East Jerusalem, inconsistently defined the 1967 borders and failed to label areas and cities with both Arabic and Hebrew names.

      But the Israeli media has reported that Israeli educational system “is hardly better than the Palestinian one when it comes to inserting political messages in textbooks.”

      “This president decided he was gonna try and negotiate for Israel by sayin’, “Let’s go back to the ‘67 borders.” That’s not what Israel wanted to hear.”


      Romney is greatly oversimplifying what President Obama said earlier this year, in an admittedly controversial speech. Obama made it clear his proposal included land swaps: “We believe the borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states.”

      We wrote at the time that, in diplomatic terms, this was a significant shift for a U.S. president, in part because of what he dropped various diplomatic code words of meaning to Israelis. But Romney is taking it a step too far, especially because Obama almost immediately clarified his statement in his response to Israeli concerns.

      “The fact is, the Palestinian claim to a right of return is based on a historically false story. Somebody oughta have the courage to go all the way back to the 1921 League of Nations mandate for a Jewish homeland, point out the context in which Israel came into existence, and ‘Palestinian’ did not become a common term until after 1977.”


      Let’s stipulate that both Israelis and Palestinians have their own historic narratives, and woe be the Fact Checker who tries to decide which narrative is right.

      But Gingrich’s claim that “Palestinian” did not become a common term until 1977 is bizarre. The very League of Nations mandate that he mentions was called “The British Mandate for Palestine.” The text of the declaration mentions the word “Palestine” 45 times and “Palestinian” twice.

      link to

    • Here is Remnick on this issue: link to

      Again -- again, again, again! -- and more agains yet after reading Remnick -- trodding down the path of "National claims" is a very dodgy business. Do advocates of the Palestinian cause really want to get into a Big Swinging Dick contest as to Whose Nation Is More Worthy? Bad idea.

      First off, I don't think you can socialise rights. There is no such thing as "group rights" and the whole notion of "group rights" has corroded political thought for too long now. People have rights. Groups have rights only insofar has people -- individuals - confer their rights to some broader decision-making entity.

      The Palestine-Israeli conflict is a matter of the gross violation of individual rights.

      The Palestinians are dumb dumb dumb to fight the battle on the "nation state level". We'll end up contesting biblical reference counts and the like.

      People have rights. Full stop. -N49.

    • Annie,

      Somebody should send this map (of Palestine as depicted in Roman times) to Newt Romney for Christmas. The map was made in 1821. link to

      Apart from that, I agree with MJ Rosenberg that all "peoples" are invented, including Palestinians. Nationalism is a top-down phenomenon.

  • Israel's myth of invincibility drives a dangerous idea-- attacking Iran
    • >> And yes, as the Saudis, the Americans, and the Europeans have all said time and again, a nuclear Iran would upset the balance of power in the region and likely set off an arms race.

      And who would have started the arms race? --N49.

  • Israeli station airs footage of soldiers attacking handcuffed, blindfolded Palestinian
  • This is how Palestinians spent their Thanksgiving...
    • >> Only Americans have Thanksgiving.

      Not true, RoHa. Canadians also celebrate thanksgiving, although about a month earlier than our friends south of the border. -N49.

  • Who's on top in VF piece-- 'Tom Buchanan' Winkelvosses or 'lifelong elite' Zuckerberg?
    • I do tech. What Zuckerberg did -- as per "I am going to f-ck them in the ear" -- is an outrage in my little world. You don't take someone else's code and screw them with it. A complete breach of trust. Outrageous. In some countries he'd be swimming with fish right now.

      Z's attitude seems to be: I did it 'cause I could. Come get me.

      Sounds a little bit like eee.

      What a class act the "new elite" are, yes? Society seems well-poised for a new golden age.



  • Romney promises to abdicate American foreign policy towards Israel . . . to Israel
    • Any incident instigated by either Israel or the US would signal to Iran that an attack is imminent.

      What does the purported plot by Iran to kill the Saudi ambassador mean then? I see more provocation ahead. -N49.

    • What are your odds of an "incident" in Iran that compels the two US candidates to "take a position" mid-election? You know, put the tip of the sword to their tender parts when they are least able to empoy their better instincts?

      Agitation seems to have picked up of late. Election related? -N49.

  • Minneapolis panel pitting Zionist and anti-Zionist Jews gets no media attention
    • So a group that does not practice racism is racist because it might have practiced racism. So racism is determined by thoughts and not by actions.

      C'mon, eee, don't pay dumb. RoHa refers to a system, and a system can have characteristics even as it remains inactive. For example, Canada could put a law into place which forbids entry to jews. Would such a law be racist? Even if no jews were to "test" the law?

      Which begs the question: If it is ok to deny citizenship to non-jews (as you clearly claim), then surely it is ok in your mind for other coutries to explicitly deny citizenship to jews -- yes? Please clarify. -N49.

    • >> eee: Nationalism like other forms of nationalism is here to stay.

      You are wrong here, eee. Nationalism peaked one hundred years ago. Been downhill ever since. The world is getting smaller and more cosmopolitan. Entropy, baby, entropy. You and your antiquated worldview is fading fast. -N49.

  • Testimony of an Israeli activist who was robbed and beaten by settlers while attempting to assist the olive harvest
  • Boycott update: Champion fencer Sara Besbes stands down rather than plays Israeli
    • >> BDS is not nuclear weapons, but if you introduce it into the battlefield, you can hardly complain when the other side uses it also. Are you sure that using BDS will not in the end harm the Palestinians even more than it harms Israel?

      What you seem to be projecting here is a world where Israel plays in tournaments with all its friends. You can count these friends by looking at the average support it gets in the general assembly. Soccer against Micronesia? Volleyball against Guatamala? Basketball against the US?

      Israel is a country that can't get a prom date. -N49.

  • Some preliminary questions about the alleged Iranian terror plot
    • Iran is a terrorist state and it was trying to intimidate KSA and the USA.

      eee, You don't really believe this, do you? -N49.

    • I’m no conspiracist.

      What does that mean? -N49.

    • With ZERO evidence against Israel people here were saying it was plausible that Israel was involved in the events in Egypt.[Emph added.]

      Look up the word "plausible", eee. A synonym might be "believable." It is entirely plausible that Israel is stirring the pot in Egypt, if for no other reason than it has a demonstrable history of stirring the pot in foreign countries.

      As for Iran setting up a hit on a Saudi on US soil, this is less plausible, if for no other reason than Iran has little or no history of meddling in other people's affairs. -N49.

  • Panic and shock sweep Cairo
    • Enlightened Egyptians are rightly blaming their government, not third parties like you.

      I am not blaming anyone. I am simply saying it is plausible that Israeli fingerprints could be found somewhere here. I give you motive and means. I also point out a history of Israel inteferring in the affairs of other countries.

      By contrast, you say it is outlandish that anyone could ever suggest Israelis would ever do such a thing. And then, well, you say it again. And again.

      Hey, one more thing -- what do you think the two Israelis claiming to be photographers were up to 10 years ago today (Oct 10 2001) when they were busted inside the Mexico Congress Building with guns, a hand-grenade and other bomb-making materials? eee, what were these two up to? If I were to suggest "covert activities" would you upbraid me for my outlandish views? -N49.

    • Egypt’s Coptic Orthodox Church on Monday blamed “infiltrators” for triggering last night’s clashes in Cairo’s Maspero district in which 25 people, most of them Christians, were killed.

      Hmm. The paranoid truther in me thinks this sounds familiar. Infiltrating demonstrators and inciting violence which then gets pinned on the demonstrators. I know, I know -- it's my tinfoil talking. Of course it is. Right?

      link to

      Right. -N49.

    • >> Here is proof that it is plausible that Palestinians want to annihilate Israel:
      link to What do you think of my evidence?

      Huh? You're equating Memri with Oded Yinon? You are disintegrating quickly, eee.

      >> Your standards for deciding what is plausible and how to judge evidence are clear for everyone to see.

      I would hope so. -N49.

    • Israel doesn’t have to be involved in this one- the Egyptians are fighting amongst themselves.

      I accept this. But I also would not be surprised were there to be a helping hand along the way. -N49.

    • You bring ONE article from 29 years ago by a nobody and that proves your point? Really? On the basis of that article from 29 years ago, you are accusing Israel now?

      My contention in this thread is that it is simply plausible that Israel is stirring the pot. I argued Israel has both the means and the motive. You disagreed that they have the motive. To quote you: "Israel has absolutely ZERO interest in stirring the pot."

      Well, a former senior Israel official disagrees with you. Here, in the article I posted, a case is laid out for Israel's motive. You present no arguments to counter the official's arguments.

      Interestingly, his views on Iraq are also interesting. It was argued that it would be in Israeli's interests if Iraq were to be broken up also. Now, why did we go to war there, hmm?

      >> Yes, I have been schooled.

      That'd be right, fella. -N49.

    • Interesting Counterpunch follow-up to Yinon's piece here: link to


    • eee: Israel has absolutely ZERO interest in stirring the pot. The worst outcome for Israel is a unstable Egypt because that is where terrorist organizations flourish.

      Ok, found some material. You say Israel has "ZERO" interest in stirring the pot. Oded Yinon, Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs senior advisor back in the early 80's, disagrees. He published the following in KIVUNIM (Directions), A Journal for Judaism and Zionism; Issue No, 14--Winter, 5742, February 1982. Money quote:

      The myth of Egypt as the strong leader of the Arab World was demolished back in 1956 and definitely did not survive 1967, but our policy, as in the return of the Sinai, served to turn the myth into "fact." In reality, however, Egypt's power in proportion both to Israel alone and to the rest of the Arab World has gone down about 50 percent since 1967. Egypt is no longer the leading political power in the Arab World and is economically on the verge of a crisis. Without foreign assistance the crisis will come tomorrow.12 In the short run, due to the return of the Sinai, Egypt will gain several advantages at our expense, but only in the short run until 1982, and that will not change the balance of power to its benefit, and will possibly bring about its downfall. Egypt, in its present domestic political picture, is already a corpse, all the more so if we take into account the growing Moslem-Christian rift. Breaking Egypt down territorially into distinct geographical regions is the political aim of Israel in the Nineteen Eighties on its Western front.

      Egypt is divided and torn apart into many foci of authority. If Egypt falls apart, countries like Libya, Sudan or even the more distant states will not continue to exist in their present form and will join the downfall and dissolution of Egypt. The vision of a Christian Coptic State in Upper Egypt alongside a number of weak states with very localized power and without a centralized government as to date, is the key to a historical development which was only set back by the peace agreement but which seems inevitable in the long run. [emph added]

      The Western front, which on the surface appears more problematic, is in fact less complicated than the Eastern front, in which most of the events that make the headlines have been taking place recently. Lebanon's total dissolution into five provinces serves as a precendent for the entire Arab world including Egypt, Syria, Iraq and the Arabian peninsula and is already following that track. The dissolution of Syria and Iraq later on into ethnically or religiously unqiue areas such as in Lebanon, is Israel's primary target on the Eastern front in the long run, while the dissolution of the military power of those states serves as the primary short term target. Syria will fall apart, in accordance with its ethnic and religious structure, into several states such as in present day Lebanon, so that there will be a Shi'ite Alawi state along its coast, a Sunni state in the Aleppo area, another Sunni state in Damascus hostile to its northern neighbor, and the Druzes who will set up a state, maybe even in our Golan, and certainly in the Hauran and in northern Jordan. This state of affairs will be the guarantee for peace and security in the area in the long run, and that aim is already within our reach today.

      link to

      The entire article should be read. Very revealing.

      At any rate, eee, you've just been schooled. -N49.

    • Israel has absolutely ZERO interest in stirring the pot. The worst outcome for Israel is a unstable Egypt because that is where terrorist organizations flourish.

      Israel has a track record of sowing discord amongst it enemies. It wants them to fight each other as opposed to forming a united front against them. For example, it payed a role in starting Hamas, this to undermine the PLO. Lebanon was one long experiment of playing one group off against the other. There is a quote of some IDF guy articulating this approach of divide and conquer -- can't find it. But it is entirely consistent should Israel now be fomenting sectarian discord in Egypt.

      Your argument is completely preposterous.

      Yeah, you keep saying that.... -N49.

    • Annie,

      i looked for the article on the site and could not find it so i googled the headline and guess where it popped up? arutz sheva, the israeli rightwing settler publication.

      I missed that. Interesting. It would have been more interesting has this guy popped up after Tahir. But I still think that scratching this outfit would bring forth some ripe smells. -N49

    • eee,

      >> 1) How do you explain the coincidence that Phil was there at EXACTLY the time the riots happened? What are the chances of that?

      Yes, the "coincidence fallacy." Yes, Phil was there, but so were millions and millions of others. In other words, there were 15mm other coincidences yesterday too.

      2) Phil has the motive because he wants the US government to sanction the Egyptian military to help the revolution and discredit the Islamists that are targeting Copts.


      3) Phil does not need much money since he has many Egyptians following this blog and he teamed up with them.

      Again -- huh? Show me evidence of a history of Phil working with Egyptian blog-followers to blow up mosques.

      eee, you are making a silly rhetorical argument (as you will agree) that in no way obscures the fact that Israeli intelligence has the means and the motive to stir the pot and demonstrated track record of doing things just like this. -N49.

    • Yeah, the guy's name has been around since 2010. So he might be just a crank. All grist for the mill. -N49.

    • Speaking of inflaming tensions, does this site look strange to anyone here?

      link to

      Slick production values delivering a political view to the right of Pam Geller. The organsiation seems to be paper thin. All Hollywood storefront.

      It reminds me a little of the fraudulent gay flotilla video. When was the site above created? What is the first mention of this group and its only named person, one Ashraf Ramelah? Any way to dig up details of who this person is? Someone want to call him? The curious want to know.... -N49.

    • I think it was done by Phil Weiss*. He is the person behind these events. Think about it. He was there. He has the interest in doing it because then people like you will blame Zionists. Therefore it is quite plausible Phil Weiss is behind these acts. You don’t know, neither do I. * Just to be clear, I am trying to show N49 how preposterous his argument is.

      This is sophistry, bad sophistry. Phil Weiss has neither the motive nor the means. As to motive, the Arab Spring gave great hope to anti-Zionists. To think they would have a hand in undermining it is ridiculous. As to means, yeah, I see the money is just pouring in here on this site, surely enough to support a network of in-country operatives and support people. -N49.

      ps -- What is your hypothesis for wtc7? A band of little tiny fairies with really, really sharp teeth all of whom worked in unison to relieve the building of all its structural integrity at precisely the same time? Dish it, eee. Gimme your theory.

    • What a wild accusation.


      What -- organisations are put together to execute covert operations, are known to have executed covert operations, have ongoing interests in conducting covert operations, yet it is a "wild accusation" to suggest they conduct a particular covert operation.

      What does Mossad do all day long? Play backgammon?

      Maybe the Israelis had a finger in this, maybe they didn't. You don't know and nor do I. But to suggest that it is entirely plausible that they did is hardly a wild accusation. -N49.

      ps -- on the truther quip, if you believe wt7 came down as it did due to fire, you're an idiot. Seriously.

    • There is no doubt in my mind Israelis are active in country. The fact is that Israelis have been active in-country for almost 40 years. Mubarak's #2 was likely an Israeli spy, for one:

      According to a cable dated August 2008, "[Assistent Israeli Minister] Hacham was full of praise for Suleiman, however, and noted that a 'hot line' set up between the Ministry of Defense and Egyptian General Intelligence Service (headed by Suleiman) is now in daily use.

      link to

      What sober person thinks Israel has now stopped intelligence actions re Egypt? What, their man Mubarak gets tossed, and Israel picks up its kit bag and goes home? That they would be stirring the pot re the Copts is entirely plausible. -N49.

  • In memoriam: Hanan Porat, an extremist by any other name
    • eee,

      Please comment re:

      link to


    • >> [Goldstein] has absolutely nothing to do with Ratner’s lashing out on Porat. National aspirations are coming from both sides and I as Israeli support my country, rather than considering the Palestinian aspirations first. Seems strange does it?

      The issue is not "national aspirations" but rather Porat's particular strain of "national aspirations." Many Quebecers also aspire to nationhood "in the whole of Quebec" -- that's one thing. It is quite another were Quebec nationalists to deny resident "non-Quebecers" -- Anglos and Jews, say -- full citizenship rights. And suppose some lunatic francophone nationalist gunned down 29 jews at a synagogue and a prominent nationalist leader says: "Bon Fete!" Dimadok -- you'd be the first to piss on this person's grave. Ratner feels the same way about Porat and how can you blame her? -N49.

    • >> It seems that [Ratner's] narrow mind cannot comprehend Porat ... having beliefs that contradict Ratner’s. ... Yes his ideology is a complete opposite to the national Palestinian aspirations, but that what makes him one of key figures in Israel national building and creation of multifaceted society.


      You present extremist nationalist ideology as a mere "difference of opinion", indicating that you, like eee, operate in a value-lite (if not value-free) universe.

      So tell me, would you have a problem if I spat of Goldstein's grave? Or was Goldstein just a person "with strong convictions"? -N49.

  • Kol Nidre in Cairo. Not
    • The dispute in a bottle is that the Arabs do not want to accept a Jewish state in the middle east. All the rest is bull shit.

      It is a dispute in a bottle because land theft has been the hallmark of Zionist presence in Palestine. If foriegners showed up on Canadian shores and started stealing land, they would not be welcome either.

      Don't you feel Zionists have contributed one teensy eensy bit to the hatred they now encounter by the local population?

      >> My thoughts are simple regarding this case. This is an internal Israeli matter.

      Has Israel claimed/annxed this territory? -N49.

    • eee,

      I see you are active again. Last time we exchanged views we discussed the Anatot incident. You said the settlers were "ordinary folk" (paraphrasing) who had been provoked. When I pointed out that what appeared to have provoked these ordinary folks was the sight of a Palestinian flag, you came back and said, no, no -- the provocations had extended for a long time prior to the day on the incident.

      Then came Adam's post which gave us some background on the dispute. See here:

      link to

      I want your views on this, for this seems to be a microcosm of much of the friction between the two sides. The dispute in a bottle, in you will. So therefore I want your thoughts on this. I asked in the appropriate thread, but you never stopped by there. So I find you here and ask you to pls comment. Thanks -N49.

  • A society coming apart at the seams: Settlers attack IDF in the West Bank
    • RJ,

      eee seems to have skadaddled. It has been a bad week for the "We -- Israel --are just another normal western-style democracy" crowd.


      ps -- That dude with the shiv caught on tape trying to stab "leftists" outside the settlement gate -- is he in detention yet? eee, you appeared to be in touch with this group, if indirectly. Can you tell us if the dude who was caught on tape trying to stab people with a concealed knife has been arrested yet? Hey, tyia. -N49.

    • eee,

      Were the settlers "provoked" again?


  • Rambunctious reporters question US State Dept's double standard on Syrian/Palestinian aspirations
  • Story of a land grab
  • The new 'internalized conflict': Israeli settlers targeting Israeli activists w/ impunity
    • >> You think the settlers know who is an international and who is Israeli?

      Why should that make a difference? Is it ok to sucker-punch female internationals and not female Israelis ? Vice versa? I don't follow. -N49.

    • eee,

      You ready to climb down yet?


  • The death throes of Greater Israel
    • >> You are badly mistaken if you think this is an isolated incident. Again, I am not justifying their action, just explaining to you the provocation.


      Well, actually your are not explaining the provocation to us. You are alleging that there was in fact a provocation. But it sounds like you are in touch with someone in the community -- is this correct? If so, why don't you invite them to detail the various and sundry provocations and we can post it here on Mondo. I am sure Adam and Phil would provide space for these settlers to air their gripes with the protesters. Then we can weigh this against what we saw in the video, including, for example, a settler dude walking into an group of unarmed protesters with a concealed knife and stabbing one of them in the face.

      These people are fed up with someone camping in front of their homes for months telling them to move.

      Yeah, I would advise them to get used to that. They should cut a deal with the owner and I am sure the problem would go away. -N49.

    • Let’s say 100 Iraqi Jews from Israel with deeds to their houses in Baghdad went and camped in front of those houses, tried planting trees in the garden etc. do you not think this would be a provocation even though they believed that they were on their “rightfully owned, property”?

      eee, The tape indicates the provocation was the hoisting of the Palestinian flag several hundred meters away from the settlement gate. It was this little fluttering spec in the distance, apparently, that enraged these "good, decent folk", to paraphrase your characterization of what everyone else sees, plain as day, as batshit crazy thugs. -N49.

    • The people in Anatot are not the settler fringe which you discuss.

      Apparently, they are. Live and learn. -N49.

    • Show me ONE place where I defended the despicable act of hitting the woman. Just ONE quote.

      Here you act as the attacker's apologist:

      If poking a camera into someone’s face for long periods of time is not a provocation, I don’t know what is. Again, it does not justify one bit what the guy did, but he was provoked. I am not blaming the woman for being hit. It was not her fault at all. But what she did is a provocation.

      He was not provoked, eee. The protesters were standing outside the gate. They can't poke the cameras into the settlers' faces so long as the settlers stay at home and mind their own business. Instead, the settlers charged out of the gate and attacked the protesters.

      And if they don't want protesters outside their gate, they should pick up and move somewhere where title is not "contested." -N49.

    • >> If poking a camera into someone’s face for long periods of time is not a provocation, I don’t know what is. Again, it does not justify one bit what the guy did, but he was provoked.

      Bullshit, eee. These fanatics left their homes, walked out of their compound, confronted the protesters and stuck their faces into the cameras.

      All they had to do was stay home and watch TV. They chose not to. They chose instead to form a mob and attack these people. The attack included a sucker punch on a woman. It also included the use of a concealed shiv on some dude's face.

      Do you support the arrest of these people? In Canada, the attack with the shiv might cost you several years in prison. Do you think this will happen here? -N49.

  • 'Rocks Falling from the Sky': Settlers attack Palestinians and internationals in Dura al-Kara
    • However, there is really only one solution, to negotiate and arrive at a deal along the Clinton parameters.

      If Israel is now so desirous of negotiations, then why does it not cease building settlements on "contested land"? Surely as a good faith measure it could manage this much?

      Nope -- Israel has done nothing to suggest that negotiations would result in anything different this time around. Nothing. -N49.

    • Do you really want me to be sorry that the Palestinians are the weaker side in the conflict? There is a conflict. The Palestinians are at the losing end.

      eee, man, I don't understand it. Why do you bother spending time trying to convince us that you view the world through a moral lens and then go drop a clunker like the above quote? It makes no sense. Why just give it up and concede that morality does not guide you in this conflict? It would save us all some time. -N49.

  • Imagine if this article was about whites and blacks in the US
    • Hostage,

      I would never want to face you from the wrong end of an argument.


    • So what if the Jewish community was against secession of Quebec? What exactly is your point?

      My point? A world full of tribalists is a world that does not get along.

      There is also the hypocrisy: Jews tend to be for tribalism when it suits them (Israel) but against it when it does not (eg. Quebec.) There is a real stench to that. You can't have your country but we demand ours.

      In Goose-Gander terms, you have to ask the question as to whether Jews would support Israel if it meant Jews elsewhere were treated like Israel treats its non-Jews.

      How good an idea is Israel if it were to mean putting a wall around St. Urbain Street and forcing the Jewish residents there to shuttle through checkpoints to enter and leave, so long as their paperwork was in order? And if they complained? Or sought redress from the UN? We threaten to do the same with Outrement.

      In your tribal mind, eee, this is perfectly alright.

      Such is the hypocrisy of tribalism. -N49.

    • You can call national aspirations “segregation” until the cows come home. It won’t make it so. What ... almost 50% of the people in Quebec want, what the Slovaks want, ... , is a state of their own, not “segregation”. And that is exactly what Jews want, yet you fault us for it.

      I can speak to you about Quebec, for I know this very well, and it was during my time in Quebec that I developed my antipathy towards nationalism of all stripes.

      I don't have time to do this now. It is a much longer post. Maybe I will send something to Adam and Phil: "The Wandering Goy: How I became an anti-tribalist."

      But in the meantime, let me leave you with this nugget: the segment most opposed to Quebec Nationalism was the Jewish community. And pretty much vice versa. That is to say: tribalists don't get along with each other. Whereas the rest of us generally do.

      Which world would you rather live in? -N49.

    • And by the way, just as leaving Gaza improved the demographic situation for Jews dramatically, there will be similar moves in the West Bank if the Palestinians keep on with the unilateral moves.

      You can't help but out do yourself, eee. So, like, if the natives don't shape up and get real, Operation Bantustan, Phase II, gets the nod. Am I feelin' you? --N49.

    • It may well be connected with the increasingly voiced idea of Israel annexing the West Bank.

      Yes. There is a grab-it-now movement afoot. I think you are right -- this is part n parcel. -N49.

    • That's a brilliant analogy, SF. -N49.

    • >> re question as to whether the "Jewish state must concede Jewish geography Jewish geography in order to secure Jewish demography."

      Unbelievable. Adam asks how this would go over it it had been in reference to Blacks in the US. Another thought experiment asks after a reaction should it have been about Jews and admission to Waspy clubs or New England grad schools. To wit, an update from the Dean of Admission: "It appears, based on incoming applications, that Jews are declining as a proportion of overall enrollment. We find this an encouraging trend, obviating the need to take more definitive measures to ensure ethnic balance at our school."

      eee once said he agreed with the maxim that what was good for the goose is also good for the gander. I agree. -N49.

  • Knesset to vote on full Israeli annexation of the West Bank
  • Obama's impossible dilemma--and ours
  • Obama approves secret sale of 'bunker buster' bombs to Israel
    • I hope the desperate Obama gets it in the next 48 hours that aipac ain’t EVER letting him stay in the White House past 2012

      Exactly -- the lobby knows Obama is paying lip service and would be completely untrustworthy in a second term. Bachman or Perry is a far safer bet.

      Why can't the kids at dKos figure this out? The main obstacle to a second term is the very thing that is verboten to discuss. Dum, da da dum dum. -N49.

  • Ismail Khalidi: A tragic lecture, justifiying a vicious occupation, with no awareness that we killed the two-state solution
    • Again, you are intent on misrepresenting me.

      I don't have to misrepresent you, eee, for you are doing a remarkably competent job impaling yourself as it is.

      Was evicting Arabs in 48 justified? Absolutely as it saved many lives by stopping a civil war

      The incursion of european jews into historical palestine created untold displacement, misery and death for 60+ years, conditions which persist through to this day. Cast Lead, for example, was a direct, if delayed, result of Israeli action in 47. If you truly wanted to save lives, your homies should have turned around and gone back to Minsk or New Jersey or wherever it is you are from.

      The only way to reconcile your statements here is to infer that you believe a jewish life is worth more than a non-jewish life, a point of view that would not be unique in your country.

      So what will it be: moral relativist? Or hardcore supremecist? You choose, we wait. -N49.

    • They bought or rented the properties they resided on. And this will have to be the route taken by Palestinians.

      eee, This horsecrap and you know it. There are millions of people sitting in refugee camps with title to homes inside mandate Palestine that are now occupied by jews. These jews did not pay for the land -- they stole it. Do you dispute this? Are you saying all these occupied homes were paid for? Really? Land deeds transferred with a notary's signature at the bottom of every page?

      The record is clear: the Palestinians were driven out, the land considered "abandoned", and newly arrived europeans were given the keys. That's what happened and your belief system, eee, allows for this.

      So long as it is the jews doing the taking. -N49.

    • In short I oppose the ROR because it will create more evil than good in my opinion. I don’t expect Palestinians to agree with me of course.

      eee believes it was ok for Jews to kick Palestinians out of their homes but it is not ok for Palestinians to recalim these very same homes.

      Put differently, eee believes it is morally justifiable for A to do X to B, but not ok for B to do X to A.

      That is very definition of moral relativism. -N49.

    • Address what I wrote, not what you wrote.

      Everyone saw what you wrote, eee.

      I believe that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

      No you don't. You do not support the ROR. It is ok in your mind for Jews to seize Palestinian homes, but it is not ok for Palestinians to seize these same homes back. It really is that simple.

      With such a belief system, it is rational to expect you will go on unjustly seizing Palestinian homes. It is pointless to negotiate with a party such as this. -N49.

    • I never said it is morally ok for jews to kick palestinians out of their homes, ... I am not a moral relativist. ... I think there is a very good argument in the case of the Palestinians not being allowed to return.

      You guys following this limbo act?

      We took the land because Israelis believed that .... creating a viable Jewish state is a greater good that justifies the evil of not allowing the Palestinians to return.

      That is the position of a moral relativist. And as such, were you the Israeli rep at the table, you wold string the Palestinians along for as long as you could. That is the only course of action consistent with your statements here. -N49.

    • The incentive is that Israelis do want peace.

      But you have peace now. You have peace now and with every passing month you acquire more land. There is little or no short-term cost for you and your gains are considerable. Again, for someone with your belief structure, it does not pay for you to give away land that you don't have to.

      There is nothing not moral about my position ... For the greater good of stopping a civil war and establishing a viable Jewish state, Arabs were not allowed to return to their land.

      Part 1 of the quote above does not square with part 2. You have repeatedly shown to us, eee, that you are a moral relativist. It is morally ok for jews to kick palestinians out of their homes, but not vice versa. You have said (to paraphrase): "We took the land becuase we wanted it and we could. We won, they lost."

      For someone with that belief structure, it makes no sense to sit down in good faith with the palestinians. Better to buy time by putting on a show of negotiations, all whilst squeezing your opponent into an evermore dire position. -N49.

    • the Palestinians should negotiate in earnest since there is no other way to a peaceful solution

      eee, What incentive is there for Israel to negotiate in good faith? If I were to assume your position and (amoral) belief system, I would string Palestinians along and keep building settlements. Right? As many facts on the ground as possible. If I were pursuing self-interest as you see it, that's what I would do. Why would I give away land I did not have to? If I can steal something and get away with it, why wouldn't I? I mean you say yourself Israel effectively stole land in '47/'48 and that was a good thing. Why stop now? -N49.

  • Palestinians have a better chance of getting a state on Craigslist than from Barack Obama
  • Ashrawi and Tibi say Obama made it sound like Palestinians are occupying Israel
    • I think going to the SC makes sense. Let's get how the US really feels on paper. Dare them to veto. I think that is a good move. Get it on paper. -N49.

  • Abunimah: Palestinian focus should be on attaining rights, not statehood
    • How am I making any moral statement? I am stating historical facts and counterfactuals.

      Fer god's sake, it is a simple question: You have in the past said it was, while unfortunate, morally acceptable that Palestinians were driven from their homes in '47/'48 because, in your view, the price paid was more than offset by the creation of a "jewish state." Fine. By this logic you would have to agree that what is good for the goose is also good for the gander and that it is no more nor no less acceptable that jews be driven from their homes if that is the price to be paid for the creation of the Palestinian state.

      Yet you evade the question. Telling. -N49.

    • “So, in your view, there is nothing then morally wrong with “driving the jews into the sea”?”

      If it had happened, would you care today?

      I asked eee a simple question: If it is morally alright that Jews violently drove Palestinians from their homes in 47/48, is it now morally alright that Palestinians do likewise to Jews?

      That's where eee's brand of moral relativism gets you. Want some? -N49.

    • There is a Jewish state in Palestine because Israel won the war of 1947-48. If the Arabs would have won, there would be an Arab state in Palestine.

      So, in your view, there is nothing then morally wrong with "driving the jews into the sea"?

      Because that is what you are saying, you know.... -N49.

  • 'I prefer to live with Jews': A liberal Zionist argument for the two-state solution
    • I think tribalism should be cherished as it has great benefits.

      Tribalism was a social mechanism to get through the Bronze Age. To persist with this anachronistic mode of self-organisation is to drink the backwash of history. -N49.

    • I want to live in a Jewish state because that is where I feel comfortable.

      And these folks want to live in "British state" because that's where they feel comfortable: link to

      You shall be known by the company you keep. -N49.

    • eee: You are not Jews, just humans, don’t you know that?

      Just humans? Nice. Do you take cream with your supremacist worldview? Or do you prefer it black? -N49.

  • The privileged divide-- non-Jews want to talk the issue, Jews don't
    • It’ s like saying “bring it on” to the goys.
      Very bad idea, ..vanity, vanity.

      Yep, I sense a bad thing coming. What goes around comes around. Reminds me of the final scene in A Serious Man: link to -N49.

    • Dan Crowther,

      Got to get away from these people, Phil.

      I think it is important to hang with the "Vineyard" types. That's where the money is. Maybe it shouldn't be this way, but that's the way it is now.


      I think your contention that "privledged Jews" aren't aware of their proximity to power is utter hogwash. Of course they are aware. It just sounds "Protocol-esque" to articulate.

      I even think, when us goys aren't around, they may even gloat a bit. "Those stupid bastards gave it away! Can you believe it?" -N49.

  • Top media ethics expert: Times' Ethan Bronner is in 'very dicey ethical territory'
  • Rabbi Ellen Lippmann changes her mind on the boycott
    • I forget who said that a sense of humour is the ability to laugh at yourself. Richard, please note.

      Anyway, that's why Mooser is going with you. Maybe you`ll learn more than one thing on the trip. -N49.

    • We set Richard loose at a checkpoint, and steer him toward some particularly arrogant Israeli soldiers.

      I'll bet Witty has healing crystals. He could arrange these in a sacred pattern beside the checkpoint, entreat those standing in line since 3:30AM in the rain to join hands and channel the energy in positive accepting frequencies, rejecting otherness and mis-antagonising fear, rejection.

      "Gotta smoke?" one of them will ask. Betcha. -N49.

    • mooser wears fraying Teva sandals in some once-spritely color combo now mudstained, and he could use a pedicure

      That works too. Might even be better. Just no pedicure and - please dear god - no socks. -N49.

    • I want to come along too

      James N: Terrible omission on my part. We will need you of course.

      Another thought: Maybe you could impart your mastery of Witty's tortured syntax onto a select group Palesinians. This group, in turn, could spread it around their communities. I know when I read some of Witty's mangled sentences I get an overwhelming urge to stick my head in a wood chipper. Maybe if the Palestinians employ these painful linguistic constructs at checkpoints, the IDF might feel inclined to do same. Hmmm.... -N49.

    • No, LeaNder, You are correct -- for some reason, when trying to envision Witty in the West Bank, I cast back to those opening scenes of F&L in LV. I saw Mooser behind the wheel of massive, overpowered Caddy screaming across the desert, his Samoan attorney beside him, and Witty hanging on to dear life in the backseat.


      The only thing that really worried me was the ether. There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge and I knew we'd get into that rotten stuff pretty soon . .

      Zionism & ether -- working together since 1948.

      As for my response to Mooser -- I always answer "yes" to Mooser and I advise that you do the same. -N49.

    • >> Is a “Samoan attorney” anything like a “Penang lawyer”?

      Yes. And don't worry, Mooser, we'll keep you off camera. The only thing that will make it on to the final print will be your voice and the odd shot of your cowboy boots.

      Where is Witty? I am dead serious on this! We now have gracious co-supporters. This can happen. Where are you, Witty? -N49.

    • I would seriously poney-up money to see this happen. What would the bill be? $15k? To follow Witty about the West Bank and the check points and batshit crazy settlements and the old Palestinian villages, err, remains thereof, would be a genuine treat, and that`s before Mooser`s narration. A good film maker would be spoiled for material here.

      Witty -- whatcha say? You game? -N49.

    • RIchard, I would love to hear your first hand account of a visit to the West Bank.

      We must buy Richard a ticket to the West Bank. Simone can guide. Max B can film. Mooser rides shotgun, with or without his Samoan attorney. "The Education of Richard Witty." This screams Sundance, don't it?

      Who's in? -N49.

  • The declaration of 'The Jewish Authority in Eretz Yisrael'
  • How to run for Congress in the United States
    • What do our local zionists think about this pic? I know, I know -- Americans like Israel, poll after poll shows, but they also like Canada. And US-Canada trade would be 10x, 20x, ?x that of US-Israel trade. Where is the Canadian flag on the set?

      Seriously, how can anyone not see a problem with this? -N49.

  • 'Forward's ad director says he's chosen not to visit Israel because it's gone 'so far afield'
  • 'Fundamentalist-dominated state bent on expansion and war' --Sullivan
  • 'September: The Threat of an Opportunity' - Israeli settlers plan to confront Palestinian demonstrators
    • And of course it is common sense that the Jews in 1948 had every right to defend themselves.

      In Central Greenland, with the permission of the Danes, maybe. -N49.

    • eee,

      Are you advocating a pogrom? Or just justifying one?


  • Krugman seems to want to talk about pundit-class responsibility for Iraq disaster
    • >> I rather like experts and their differential equations and have a keen distrust of common sense in science. Common sense is wrong at least as often as it is right.

      By "common sense" I mean the employment of basic high school physics. In other words: this is not complicated.

      Interesting, that Grabbe link I posted points to a paper that has been published in the Jounral of Engineering Mechanics, a serious, legit academic journal. (J. Eng. Mech. 136, 538 (2010); doi:10.1061/(ASCE)EM.1943-7889.) This is great news. A fair airing in refereed forums will quickly undermine accepted theory. That is the great thing about engineering -- open discussion almost always results in a single correct answer, unlike law, unlike arts, etc. So that's great news that this is finally gone mainstream, scientifically speaking. -N49.

    • Sorry to pile on, Donald, but I would advise to steer clear of arguments by experts and their differential equations and rather use common sense. See the Madrid fire videos I posted below. Here, the skyscaper burned all night long and into the next day. It spanned most of the top of the hotel. The cold light the following day showed how it had been completely gutted. But it did not fall down, and it certainly did not fall down at near free fall speeds. See these videos and then maybe you will appreciate how bizarre the accepted theory of WTC7 collapse appears to us. Regards -N49.

      ps: Google "Madrid Windosr Hotel fire" for more info here.

    • I commented on the Bazant paper elsewhere. I believe this theory was rejected by all parties, including the official 9/11 Committee. It was written very early after the incident and neglected the central column-set. -N49.

    • >> Seriously, do you see any teensy contradiction here? The truthers talk as though it’s obvious that it was controlled demolition

      First of all, "truthers" has become a perjorative term, in my view. I prefer "Skeptics".

      Second of all, I have only said that it is obvious is that the buildings did not come down by fire.

      Happy to address that, if you like. -N49.

    • Does anyone have any plausible suggestion as to why there has been no leak of any kind pointing to an alternative scenario?

      Interesting question. As POA points out below, there have been folks who have come out "said something." One example:

      SOUTH BEND -- The laboratory director from a South Bend firm has been fired for attempting to cast doubt on the federal investigation into what caused the World Trade Center's twin towers to collapse on Sept. 11, 2001.

      Kevin R. Ryan was terminated Tuesday from his job at Environmental Health Laboratories Inc., a subsidiary of Underwriters Laboratories Inc., the consumer-product safety testing giant.

      On Nov. 11, Ryan wrote a letter to the National Institute of Standards and Technology -- the agency probing the collapse -- challenging the common theory that burning jet fuel weakened the steel supports holding up the 110-story skyscrapers.

      link to

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