Total number of comments: 277 (since 2010-01-29 23:27:39)
PeaceThroughJustice
Posted in the early years of Mondoweiss under the name "David," but that name was not available when I returned.
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Off topic (sorry), but there's a new indie documentary on US policy in the Middle East--
Valentino's Ghost: The politics behind images
Michael Singh, Producer
link to valentinosghost.com
I haven't seen it, but the trailer talks openly about the cost of supporting Israel; and even more shocking, I notice that the list of interviewees is not dominated by Jewish names.
It's currently showing at the Quad Cinema in Manhattan.
My senator was one of the original 18 sponsors and I wrote him to complain about it last month. So far there's been no response, which is quite odd since congressional offices usually make an effort to reply to all messages, even if it's only with boilerplate. Perhaps it's an indication that they're feeling the heat, or maybe it's just an indication that an AIPAC-provided intern is managing their inbox. In any event I sent a second message yesterday and explicitly asked for a response. We'll see.
"The fear of a billion people compared to a fear of 18 million people (Jewish world population in 1939) are two totally different things."
...
"So the irrationality of anti Yehudi feeling is much greater than the irrationality of anti Muslim feelings."
And right on cue, Wondering Jew jumps in to defend the sanctity and honor of his favorite (only?) topic. How dare anyone even compare antisemitism to other puny forms of prejudice? Why, that would be "antisemitic."
(And as a bonus, he gets to put in a few digs at Islam. How could he have resisted.)
I see. So apparently you think it is "antisemitic" to have a villain who is Jewish (and in the case of Cohn or Tolstoy's character, not a villain at all but merely a figure who is not particularly likeable). That's an awfully tough standard you've set, particularly considering the unique significance of the charge of "antisemite".
But I'm mainly interested in the way you elided caricature and persecution, because it's something you've done before. Are there any minority groups you can think of who are not caricatured? In fact, can you even think of any who are caricatured less than Jews? Is all caricature bad?
"Mark Twain, Charles Dickens, Tolstoy, Ernest Hemingway, they all caricatured Jews. ... Back when Jews were persecuted, the Jewish community and friends of Jews had to organize."
You might want to be careful about that slide from caricature to persecution. You do it without even thinking about it. (BTW, is caricature really "antisemitism"?)
I hate to be pedantic, but if you're going to claim that Mark Twain, Charles Dickens, Tolstoy, and Ernest Hemingway were all "antisemitic", then I think we deserve to see the evidence you're basing this on. Just so we can judge for ourselves. Are fictional villains ever allowed to be Jewish?
Nice piece, Matthew. That list of Founding Partners is very revealing. Continuing on the subject of distortion of the media, Max Kaiser ("edgy" economic commentator) made an interesting statement yesterday--
"I have come to see Hussein Ibish as one of the brightest, most consistent and fair minded spokesmen on the I/P issue."
Uh-oh.
Two quick points:
Remember this is a list of the world's billionaires. There aren't many Jews in China (yet). In the U.S. economy Jews represent a much larger percentage--
"At Least 139 of the Forbes 400 Are Jewish"
Jacob Berkman, JTA, October 5, 2009
link to blogs.jta.org
Second, from your economics classes recall that capital tends to be largely concentrated in the hands of the wealthy. So to say that Jews represent one third of America's wealthiest class is also to say that Jews own roughly one third of the US economy.
"Yes, it could foster anti-Semitism, ..."
I don't understand this. How, by leading someone to think Jews hold great power?
I thought "antisemitism" had something to do with a mental disease among gentiles causing irrational behavior.
"surging movement inside the Jewish community of anti-Zionists and non-Zionists"
LOL
You think this kind of optimistic claim will help inspire change, but it actually just lets people avoid looking at the problem squarely.
JVP's money would be better spent trying to educate Americans about the I-P situation, than on burnishing their own self-image.
The claim of being more "pro-peace" than the other guy actually just clouds the issue in Americans' minds. As my log-in name suggests, if it's just "peace" that's your goal then you should be helping Netanyahu turn the screws on the Palestinians. Because Netanyahu definitely wants peace too; it's just that his peace is the peace that follows surrender.
Roger Hertog (junk bond billionaire and Israel-firster) is the Chairman of the NY Historical Society's Board of Trustees. In fact, three of its four trustees are Jewish.
link to nyhistory.org
"we are shown as being undifferentiated whites."
Oh, the horror.
Just a little snippet from one of the videos on the PFMEP site (from the Rev. Dave Berge, Youth Pastor, Ojai):
"I come at this from the perspective of someone who had almost no experience at all. ... But you know, being elected a commissioner in the General Assembly has its perks, in that people want you to be educated and informed. And so in February I had the opportunity to take my first trip to Israel. And so I spent a whirlwind ten days going all over the country, ... etc., etc., etc."
link to pfmep.org
But they would say that, wouldn't they?
"National exit polls are now saying that 68% of Jews voted for Obama – ten points behind the president’s performance in these polls four years ago. Once again, the night is young, and these figures could move. Few expect Obama to hold on to the 74% of the Jewish vote he won in 2008."
link to blogs.forward.com
November 6, 2012, 8:56pm
Thank you Eva. I did not mean to imply that Zionism was the only conceivable outcome of Jewish ideas of separateness and choseness, but just that it undeniably grew in that soil. (Other ideas -- nationalism and colonialism -- also played a part.) I should have been more careful so that even those people who want to misunderstand wouldn't have had the chance.
The problem with this policy is that it presumes Zionism has no roots in Jewishness, that it is an alien set of ideas that has hijacked "real" Jewishness. But this is by no means clear.
Don't conflate anti-Semitism with irrational behavior.
Off topic:
Gilad Atzmon was interviewd last night on (surprise of surprises) the BBC World Service.
link to bbc.co.uk
BBC World Service "Weekend" 14/10/2012 8:35 GMT (He comes on around the 30:15 mark.)
The context is a new film about him and his music showing this month in London. It's only a brief section and to be honest, not much of any real signficiance is said, but it was still nice to hear the announcer use the word "Zionism" as if it's something people are allowed to hold opinions on.
I haven't looked into the film yet. Here's a link to the trailer--
link to vimeo.com
Shmuel writes: "What do I think about the situation in the Occupied Territories? To tell you the truth, I don’t. As I have explained, it’s really not my concern.’"
Would you be equally understanding of a comparable statement about the Holocaust by, say, an American citizen during Europe's WWII? Why can't we expect that Jews should feel a responsibility for Zionism, not as Jews but just as human beings?
"We've decided that the reason this light-unto-the-nations thing hasn't been getting the respect it deserves is that you're all just too damn stupid to appreciate us. So from now on I'm going to spell everything out in words even you can understand. Now pay attention!"
"Shocking!"
You sure MSNBC aired every minute of Netanyahu's speech because it would bring them higher ratings? Could ownership have played a role? There are some things more important than money.
Just the appearance of the word is a kind of breakthrough. How often have you even seen the term "zionism" in any of our mass media? You'll find communism, and socialism, and naziism, and islamism, and islamofascism, and satanism, and UFOism, but you won't find zionism. Which is very odd considering how much pain this particular political ideology happens to be causing the world.
Someone with access to LexisNexis should do an analysis of this. My money would be on finding more appearances of "satanism" than "zionism".
"I didn’t think about it."
That's odd, given your fascination with the possibility that Alexander Hamilton might once have had a Jewish schoolteacher.
"Schmuck" is an interesting way of describing professional hate peddlers like Geller and Hall.
"The timing is odd."
Eltahawy is a well know activist. Hall was undoubtedly stalking her, just as Hall and Geller had earlier stalked another enemy of the Jewish people, Debbie Almontaser. It's what they do. It's not easy but someone's got to look out for what's good for the Jews.
When he reads accounts like this, does TokyBK ask himself whether Pamela Hall is Jewish? Or is it just the gentiles who are not supposed to notice?
link to jewishyellow.com
"how do you know she’s jewish?"
Because her first job after getting out of college happened to be in Jerusalem?
link to nndb.com
(I also happen to remember reading, though I can't find a link, that she was connected to Australia's Israel lobby before moving to the U.S. Maybe one of our Australian readers can fill us in.)
"...“If you create an impression that everything’s hopeless, you’re going to find you’re not going to be able to sustain stability,” Ross [said by phone]... “Frustration is going to build.”"
Could there be a clearer expression of the aims of the "peace-processors"?
Perhaps this thinking also explains Haim Saban's much delayed (and much reduced) campaign contribution.
Saban gave $1 million to Unity Pac at the end of June, and he wrote a pro-Obama op-ed this month. In the 2002 election he gave $10.5 million.
That's true, BK.
Now back to the subject: fraudsters who claim expertise in order to spread hatred of Islam. Are you defending this practice, or claiming it doesn't exist? Or this just more butwhatabout-ism?
It's interesting how "Jimmy Israel" seems to have taken control of this story's arc. He's made himself available to every single reporter covering it, when all the other key players have shied away. (I'm assuming that "Hollywood veteran" in the Time piece is Israel.)
And he's got some definite opinions he wants us to hear (besides, of course, distancing himself from the Islamophobia):
If this is spinning (as I'm guessing it is), then it's really only Nakoula who's in a position to contradict him. I would hate to be in poor Sam's shoes. The odds of a Jack Ruby-style assassination go up every day.
The Daily Mail (UK) originally titled their converage of this story "Mitt Romney told wealthy Jewish donors there is no point in seeking Middle East deal," as you can see from the link--
link to dailymail.co.uk
It's been subsequently changed to just "wealthy donors." (Hey, there was probably at least a couple of gentiles in that room.) BTW, the host of the event was a leveraged buy-out guy called Marc Leder.
"and you can easily see the progression in my comment archive ..."
Unfortunately, most of the very early comments at this site are longer available, lost during various software upgrades. To this day I remember one of yours, Mooser. You had just arrived from JSF, and you mentioned (I forget the context) that you didn't like to bring up the topic of I/P with newcomers to the subject because so often you would detect antisemitism. It stuck in my mind because I was always on the lookout for signs of the prioritization of antisemitism over everything else, and this angered me greatly. But the interesting part is that there has been a progression (or maybe I just misinterpreted your early comments), because now your voice is one of the ones I look to for help in navigating the tricky field of "antisemitism."
This isn't meant to sound condescending. Progression isn't something you see a lot of on internet sites, where we mainly come to be confirmed in our ideas, so I honestly often think of your example, and hope I'm keeping myself open to similar changes.
ISRAEL CHARGED WITH SYSTEMATIC HARASSMENT OF U.S. MARINES
link to wrmea.com
from Wikipedia: "Newsweek is jointly owned by the estate of the late Harman and the diversified American Internet company IAC."
(IAC Chairman and CEO is Barry Diller.)
Come on people, you've got to start keeping tabs on who owns your media. Otherwise we'll be forever talking about "antisemitic canards".
re Colin's comment on Jewish pride: I always thought it was interesting that in Christian ethics, pride is not just one of the seven mortal sins, but the prime sin from which all the others are thought to follow. But "chutzpah" is the title chosen by Alan Dershowitz for a book about "what it means to be Jewish".
(Sure hope this doesn't get me indicted by seanmcbride's indigestion.)
I don't know why you're mocking Gregory's assertion that Netanyahu is the leader of the Jewish people. Gregory is a devoted student of the subject:
"The pedophile thing is stupid."
Whew. I felt sure BK was going to find a way to insinuate that it was historically accurate.
Oh, wait ...
BTW, two points about the so-called "riots" that will never be brought up by a Goldberg e-mailer: First, it has to be remembered that in this case as in the case of the cartoons they are responses to intentional insults. Not cultural differences, but blatant and repeated attempts to bait and provoke. Even those backward Arabs are perfectly capable of understanding this. Secondly, they are taking place in a context of a war against Muslims in which somewhere between 300,000 and a million have recently been killed. To me at least it seems rather obvious that this is how they have to understood, and the film (or the cartoons, or the Koran burnings, etc.) is just the trigger.
After just two posts, Mr. Hirsch has gone into my must-read list.
Interesting article, Diane. Thanks. Reminds me of another historical document from back when it was still possible for Americans to discuss the Z-word in the mass media. King Abdullah's article of 1947 ran in The American Magazine, a hugely popular middle-brow periodical of the time (kind of a cross between the Saturday Evening Post and the New Yorker)--
"AS THE ARABS SEE THE JEWS"
His Majesty King Abdullah, The American Magazine, November, 1947
link to kinghussein.gov.jo
Something doesn't smell right. Back when "Obsession" came out, it took some time and investigation before its Jewish roots were discovered. Now Bacile is openly describing his backers as "100 Jewish donors" and bragging that his intention is help Israel? Why would he do that?
I know Moore's job is not to think. He's a "persuader," and a highly skilled one. But if that paragraph of his is any indication of left political thought in this country, then we're in deep trouble. It's infantile.
By the way, has Beryl Satter ever written anything (an article, letter to the editor, e-mail message to a friend) on the subject of I/P, prior to her piece here at Mondoweiss? So far my searches have come up empty.
Good job by everyone involved. Thanks Jeff.
Technically, Garfield had a point. He believed (or at least pretended to believe) that the writer was accusing Gladstone of "corruption"--of misrepresenting Zionism not out of personal bias, but for monetary gain. And if taken literally, that's what the complaint implied. ("Brooke Gladstone will very likely receive the usual thank-you gift from AIPAC, etc.") I personally would have interpreted that as more of a rhetorical flourish, but unfortunately it gave Garfield an excuse for dismissing the whole topic.
It's a lesson worth remembering. Zionists are not being bribed to support Israel, they're doing it for free.
PS Thanks to Donald for "NPR is news for people who are immune to the troubles of others." :)
David Samel wrote, "I can understand if anyone finds my conception of my identity to be confusing."
There are worse things than a little confusion. For me, any confusion that another person's identity causes me ceases to matter (and can even become interesting/challenging/inspiring) so long as the other person admits that what he is talking about is "my conception of my identity"--in other words an idea that he has chosen for himself. But alas this isn't always the case. After many years of butting my head against the wall, I eventually realized that many people just don't share my notion of what an "identity" is. For me it's a self-idea, or self-image that we choose for ourselves, and thus something we are responsible for. (Sure it may be so deeply ingrained that it's hard to change--or even to see--but at least theoretically we can always change it.) But for many people it seems to be something more like fate, or genes. And it's these people, who do not take responsibility for the identities they wear, who refuse to treat it as something they created, that I have trouble empathizing with.
"Oh, and you can get this information at Yahoo Finance."
Unfortunately, it's all completely meaningless. (Why did you got to such lengths to avoid mentioning the Chairmen and CEOs?)
Krauss seems also to be confused. If you have an IRA at Fidelity which invests in Goldman Sachs, then it's true you can be said to be an owner of Goldman Sachs. But the person who runs Goldman Sachs is the Chairman/CEO, who last time I looked was Lloyd Blankfein. Same for Dimon at JP Morgan. You'll find about half of the major major Wall Street firms have Jews running them.
(BTW, on the media side, AP is a cooperative owned by all the other big newspaper/media players. It's leadership rotates among those owners. Not too long ago it was the Newhouse brothers, for example.)
About this thing called "antisemitism." It's a bogus concept, but unfortunately it's also incredibly seductive to ethnicists. What else could so neatly demonstrate the unique ontological status of a chosen people than a "causeless hatred" that they alone suffer from. But I should point out that if you really believe this, that Jews suffer from a hatred that is not the same prejudice that every other minority group suffers under but something fundamentally different, then there is really no basis for opposing Zionism. Because what you are really saying is that Jews and Gentiles should not live together.
PS Neither of the links you provided actually supports your claim that millions of Arabs think "“Zionists” were behind the 9/11 attacks." Can you point to a quotation from some major figure, or prominent journalist, or respected theologian who has made this claim? Would it be "antisemitic" to believe (as I do) that 9/11 was the direct consequence of Zionism, and in that sense Zionists (or if you prefer, "Zionists") were directly behind the deaths of all those people? And would it be "antisemitic" to believe (as I do) that Zionists (or "Zionists") really didn't mind those deaths all that much?
Good links on the women in Hamas, Joe. Thanks.
Here's that Helena Cobban article from 2006--
SISTERHOOD OF HAMAS
link to salon.com
"He's saying that if you care about humanitarian universal values, you risk going to the ovens, because the world hates the Jews."
This of course is true. (The idea of being God's chosen victims is at the center of Jewish identity.) But I think Gordis is actually saying something a little different here. He talks about the potential loss of "American Jewish life as it now exists," by which he means not the ovens but a loss of "the self-confidence and sense of belonging that American Jews now take for granted." I'm going to guess that the sense of belonging he's worried about is not a sense of belonging to the broader community -- rather it's the old tribal sense. What he's really worried about is assimilation.
Zionism is anti-assimilationism, and it always has been. The interesting point Gordis reminds us of is that it's not just via physical separation in a distant land that Zionism protects against assimilation, but it works psychologically (as an ever-present symbol of "otherness") even on Jews who choose to remain in the USA.
"what is the difference ..."
It depends on what Butler means by "Jewish ethics." If what she means is just a particular local understanding of the universal principles of ethics, then there's not much difference (although as Sin Nombre pointed out, it's not clear that it then deserves the title "Jewish"). But if she's referring to a privileged Jewish insight into those ethical truths, then there's a huge difference.
"A Jew can marry a convert to Judaism and 99.9% of Jews wouldn’t say anything about it."
True, but as we know conversion in Judaism has a problematic status. I'm merely pointing out that in the case of the atheist with a Jewish mother, the question of conversion wouldn't come up.
"As for Jews who do take their faith seriously ..."
I'm perfectly willing to accept all kinds of individual instances, but I disagree with you that most people who choose to self-identify as Jews would proclaim someone dead to the community who chose the atheist with a Jewish mother. What percentage of those who choose to self-identify as Jews would you say take their faith seriously in this sense, and what percentage are secular?
Not to disagree with Phil's point about the hypocrisy of the media, but there's also an important distinction between the Mormon and Jewish takes on intermarriage. The Mormon requirement is that both partners practice the same faith, but the Jewish requirement is that both partners share Jewish bloodlines. One can choose to marry a rabid atheist, but so long as his "peoplehood" is Jewish the community will typically not raise a fuss.
It's the difference between an open and closed (i.e. inherited) religion.
Just an aside, but remember that AIEF has somehow been granted 501(c)(3) status. That means it's not just tax-exempt (like AIPAC), but tax-deductible (like the Red Cross). That means all Americans are effectively subsidizing its work.
A comment posted at the NYT blog by someone with far more knowledge of Israel than most of the commenters Phil allows here deserves repeating--
"Without a doubt Rudoren is going to publish a personality profile of a Palestinian leader that is going to anger pro-Israel people because it emphasizes human rather than explicitly political texture."
I'm sure you're right, but the problem is she's going to have to publish hundreds of them to even begin to remedy the imbalance created by years of Zionist media.
There is the issue of targeting one ethnic group, but an even bigger issue is the possibility that the CIA is now spying on US citizens here in this country. The New Brunswick episode seems to indicate that the NYPD is working with the CIA.
link to original.antiwar.com
It seems to boil down to a question of which anonymous sources you find more "compelling," "riveting," "persuasive." And that in turn is at least partially a function of which is filmed by a camera crew with higher production values.
But while you are emoting, don't forget to use your brains as well. What would the regime stand to gain?
Mooser, look around you. These aren't all bots--
JBlog Central
From Pam Geller's site:
And while you're reading this, remember that Atlas Shrugged has a daily readership more than twice that of MW, and that hers is just one of hundreds like it. Phil insists that there is a sea change going on in the Jewish community, but it seems somebody out there still enjoys the old tribal message.
PS Do you think Judge Engelmayer might be Jewish?
Frums: David and Barbara
"my own work involves issues of community self-interest."
Phil says, "Do the right thing, or they'll be coming after you with pitchforks."
But there are other reasons for doing the right thing.
"Do unto others what you would have them do unto you," and "Don't do unto others what they might do back at you" are two very different messages.
“Believe nothing until it has been officially denied.”
Thanks for that David.
marc b.: "i would also want a clear definition of what constitutes an anti-semitic incident as recorded by, say, the ADL."
I always think of the hilarious episode in "Defamation" when Yoav Shamir visits the the ADL offices to learn more about the wave of antisemitism. "We're flooded everyday with these things from all over the country. It's a very big problem." But then he talks to the staffer managing the database of incidents and it turns out they're almost all workers' complaints at not being allowed to take off Jewish holidays.
"Defamation"
link to youtube.com
(starts around 13:00)
Fred, Cohen's lies were made on the David Letterman Show (and other promotional appearances), not in the movie.
Seafoid already posted the link--
link to youtube.com
"cohen is one of those no-talents inexplicably rewarded with movie deal after movie deal"
Cohen is well connected. His agent is the CEO of William Morris, Ari Emanuel (brother of Rahm, son of former Irgun officer Benjamin).
"They should appreciate what they have and not put it all at risk."
But that's difficult when your most cherished possession is a sense of persecution.
"should have had more arc"
Because the complexity of the issue demands a more extended treatment?
(Didn't you watch it through to the end?)
The Cockburn/St. Clair book is called "The Politics of Anti-Semitism."
link to amazon.com
"The New Antisemitism" is a very different animal.
Yonah (Wondering Jew): "But I tend to believe the stories about terrorism attributed to him [Nasrallah] and his organization."
Please share a couple of these with us, with links. The whole point of a conversation like this is to share information that others may not have seen. (And the links will also give us a chance to learn which sites you rely on.)
Off topic:
Saw this at Pulsemedia.org--
"Yo Mama So Zionist"
link to youtube.com
(Apparently there is a Twitter category #YoMommaSoZionist, and this video gathers some of the best. Highly recommended.)
"Because anti-Muslim sentiments are the result and not the cause of the pro-Israel support."
Worth repeating. America's zionist community has A LOT to answer for, and this may turn out to be at the top of the list.
"... only then did he discover Zionism."
I think you want to be convinced of that, yonah. The old seductive pull of "antisemitism" as an all-purpose explanatory principle, as the driving force of history, is misleading you. The writings of the early Zionists are pretty clear: what was driving them is exactly the same thing that drives you today--how to preserve Jewish identity as a people apart in a secular age when 613 laws are a tough sell. It was how to ensure continuity of the tribe. "Antisemitism" was to them just a convenient tool to push the Zionist message that Jewishness isn't a religion but a race.
@Yonah:
Melodramatic indeed. (In fact some might even call it kitsch.)
But I think you're being somewhat dishonest, trying to wrap a devotion to Jewish separatism in the suffering of WWII. Because the question you feel compelled to respond to ("passing on the football") is the exact same question Herzl was responding to more than two generations before the Holocaust, when all around him he saw Europe's newly secularized Jews interbreeding with the goyim and realized that at this rate the bloodline was not going to last.
I happen to agree that continuity is good and it's something that should be encouraged wherever possible. But continuity for continuity's sake can also be a kind of antiquarianism, and needs some additional justification when it is causing so much suffering for others. But the Holocaust just isn't that justification.
"The Shoah ... continues to demand an answer."
What's the question again?