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I share your view of this piece North. I think Simon's a great reporter and as Roth says, he left his A game in the hotel room on purpose. The price paid to independence. But which is the authoritarian state, North-- US or Is?
agreed. its a beautiful article about moral engagement and history.
great catch, thanks Phan
Kaminer's comments on J14 and nonfeminist men leading a Palestinian movement are very helpful. I want to embrace all positive movement toward change...
you sound like my grandparents, who heard kitty genovese's screams. they lived on austin st in queens. dont get involved.
booker is friends of shmully boteach, mj reports
but jews have a long history in middle east
but hop you would agree that the percentage of drunk jewish college students who go to israel is a tiny fraction of the drunk israel-distancing whole, right? i am gonna have this both ways!
Nitrates, Shmuel, Nitrates!
helpful point, thanks Seafoid
thanks ira. we really should post this stuff
apart from the military relationship and the testing of weapons, which yes our miltary loves, there really is no National Interest here, per the National Interest types, the same people who perceived a National INterest in subjugating the Americas, then geopolitics involving communism... as there is no national interest in adhering to policies that caused 9/11
yes i agree, great post. thanks phil
all these people are exceptional. max blumenthal is exceptional. ilyse hogue is conventional, and helpful because she shines a light on the problem inside the conventional liberal american jewish community
and when they see we are only talking about human rights
fair enough. and didn't those attitudes prevail across the south during segregation among even leaders? note that i speak of cowardice
Pamela, thanks for that point. Though I was just "imagining" such a checkpoint for the purpose of prodding Bill
it does bother weiss, i have written about kinship networks before. this sure suggests one, but im not entirely sure, and i dont like throwing the charge around. certainly i benefited from a jewish kinship network, i know it; but i cant extend that conspiracy to others automatically
i was pushing it, i know.thanks jiacovelli
Why didn't you tell me that about Samel before?
Thanks WJ, interesting.
so the trend that beinart would encourage in Liberal Zionism Crisis is actually one that's peaked and will fade?
tell me more about those papers. are they online. and is that his name? Amb. do you mean?
Wow. Good news, Pamela!
truly inspiring. remember the outrage in the us when a cop peppersprayed college activists at close range?
what is the differenc.e beautiful bold palestinians hugging one another on the ground, and they spray them in the face.
i hope the world sees this and americans honor our tradition of civil disobedience
Great post, Alex. Extremely important moment. Thank you. Sadly revealing of our political process.
this comment is HUGE, today! thanks
thanks, always wanted that one
didn't you leave out Syria, hop? im sure you care about the syrians!
thanks Smithgp!!!! let us know if you get a response!
fair enough, hop, i should modulate that. but they are hawkish re iran
link to engage.jewishpublicaffairs.org
what percentage of jews are zionists? im guessing 50 percent. and of organized jewry-- 98%. a democracy of zealots
thanks Austin. helpful going to incorporate
yes and... on the other hand?
thanks elliot; helpful
its plagiarism
hop i saw your disquisition on persecution earlier, ghettoization, but can you own any part of jewish separation reflecting that impulse on our part? and the whole kashrut thing, you know a lot of that has as its intention separation. that's been my feeling. we eat different stuff. so we can't mingle
thanks Hophmi for the patient description of that world. though i was struck looking at beinart's book last night that it ends with a sentence that mentions God. i do wonder how secular JEws will relate to that. the cohort they're engaged with in christian life is similarly non-religious.
sorry marc, i had a young auden but it was a vertical, and looked like hell when it was in the feature strip; you saw him from the knees down. the shapiro is actually a little after this era.
im in a different spot from annie, wonder. im with the syrian rebels.
i believe it's a plagiarism of Dennis Ross's famous poem, "The peace process is a happy pony"
Thanks Shmuel. Dispositive
sorry Henry, failed to unpack that. Yes: responsibility
i think it comes from an insurance ad
cheap but good; i wish i'd said it
great line about hanging your head.
more important than that: disavowing the signature itself
its true i came because of american stuff, iraq war. but i dont think intermarriage is the best path, or if i ever said it i eat my words. people marry other folks for a lot of reasons, marriage is hard, etc., and most people are tribal, etc.... wondering i do think you are close to making distinction between good jews and bad 'uns, though. herzl was a bad 'un along these terms. never went to shul... christmas tree... etc
also Elliot, neocons and us share an interest: dividing the Dem party over this issue. i think it's worth the divide. the Dems fear it more than high triglycerides
touche notatall
agreed, but Elliot, I was thinking today, do non Zionists have to offer a basis for Jewish continuity to be taken seriously inside the community? I mean, does it destroy my credibility, for them, that I'm intermarried. A lot of the folks in this community are intermarried.
wow. interesting idea. it does happen you know. it happens when CAP tries to sweep stuff under the rug and both the neocons and us join to say, let's talk about this, theyr'e sweeping it
Thanks Seafoid. Appreciated.
touche dickerson
no i think Seafoid may be on to something Austin b/c her family is from Beesan, she told me. Next video.
Thanks Les, lots of folks are talking about this so it was important to put it up
and catholics have strong religious feelings about when life begins; and i have particiapted in a movement to allow them to have their beliefs but keep them off the policymaking machinery. abraham bought nablus for a sum of money, it is stated in the bible. keep it in the church
if he'd meant that he woulda written it. he doesnt feel that way, i am sure
hop i think beinart is gaining traction, actually, in a way that W&M did not, and for a simple reason, he's Jewish
MJ,
Interesting point. And I like your review.
Though I wd note that right now on WNYC Beinart said he is not Orthodox. He goes to an Orthodox shul but he's not Orthodox.... Interesting.
Phil
Shmuel im culturally bound on that one, thanks for the information. I grew up in Upper Middle Class America. It was considered absurd to do physical labor and be paid for it. I have to mull your last line...
wow. this guy might as well be a neocon-- adler!
movements build. the palestinian solidarity community existed long before i got on board. but i got on board because of the iraq war. and i found that palestinian resistance to occupation and ethnic cleansing has been going on for a long time. they have tried many different modes. the 2005 call for bds is one of the more recent modes. it represents the evolution of a sophisticated political movement.
if i jumped on any and every moral issue around the world, i'd never do anything. i care about this one because im american and jewish and both my political communities are afflicted by the character of Zionist project
thanks Shmuel. very helpful intervention.
thank you Hostage
Wow Mooser, you got me again! TKO. Down for the count. But at least I sign my name to what I say. Thats one taboo I broke!
Dan I believe he apologized. Also, this book is in some measure a form of penance.
While I agree with yr political litmus test -- its mine -- life is long
i caught that too Dan. stunning. these guys are really on a rendezvous with destiny, to nowheresville
huh. not where i come from
thanks Opal, will fix
acceptable
alas
Thanks Bruce. This is a helpful addition, it shows how thoughtful you are, and why I seized on your ideas last weekend. It is all out in the open. Then there are the more quiet elements like why Stuart Levey got his job at Treasury. And the Republican calculus is just what you say it is; as is the willingness of the media and the people to back Obama if he would only take a stand, as he did in that instance...
Thomson I looked over your earlier post and find it too blanket. I dont think this kind of language helps really. The lobby controls all appointments? I think it's important to be precise here. This isn't very precise. I think Walt and Mearsheimer were careful, and Bruce here is taking it to an important new level of understanding, of how much energy it takes up. But I regret endorsing your post whole hog, Phil
thanks Thomson, these are interesting ideas. I hope they are taken further, with rigor, and the falsities in the thinking, yours and Wolman's, separated from the gold in it.
suspicion of a possibility-- what a beautiful standard of proof you are defending, proud, for the death penalty
ha ha ha!
thanks Annie, you are a fabulous translator.
i'd add that i think all of us contain conservative elements and progressive ones. i am pretty prog on israel and palestine!
and many american conservatives were saying that the refugees was an issue in the 50s when "progressive" jews wanted to sweep that under the rug...
phil
where didja find that pixel? that's interesting
o i missed that on first viewing. that is very nice. though i felt the achievement there was the scary size of the dude coming over the building, which was enuf for me. but good funnies reward on second and third viewing.
also, Ethan, thank you for saying people should be cordial and we should have wide ideological range of commenting. i think it may be impossible, but i am for it. i certainly get sick of what i think, and yes at times even of some commenters' ideas...
I thought the icy quote balloon for Real Cool was pretty funny!
when i was shown the door at the New York Observer in 2007, my old friend the editor told me that the new publisher is a Zionist. So by the way is Mort Zuckerman of the Daily News, and David Cohen of Comcast, which I believe helps explain Chris Matthews's refusal to address the issue directly. I am happy to do an inventory of publishers who are non Zionist. I am sure there are many; and that they are just going along with the tide. We need to be hardheaded about this. For instance, maybe the Atlantic was just going with the tide when it killed Walt and Mearsheimer's paper in 06, forcing the writers to go to England to publish a landmark analysis of US policymaking. As perhaps the Atlantic is going with the tide now when it publishes Wright and Fallows taking on the lobby. But when you try and dismiss the influence of pro-Israel money in the political process, you strike me as highly naive
true re spinoza, and haber says that. how many people achieve that relationship to their group? has this sort of identification decreased over time? any sign it is ending?
i agree. and thankfully the new yorker picked up on bad rachel
bingo. the ring too. he might as well say, cracker jack box
Krauss, one thing: Jeff didn't call it a shadow gov't but an alternative or competitive gov't. So he avoided that kind of shadowy prose... Phil
Sorry Dan for that. I'm a shameless thief. I will try and improve!
It's an obvious fact that many internet sites that have developed a following have also developed satellites; and often those satellites grow bigger than the original moon-unit. So good luck to you, Sean. I appreciate your tone and apologize that we didn't get to this response sooner. That was not respectful...
I dont think Seafoid's comment is antisemitic. Seafoid is saying only 5 percent of my religious community is not Zionist and therefore the Jewish community may be hurt when it falls asunder. I think this is true, Hannah Arendt warned about it, and part of the reason I plant my flag in Jewish turf is to prove that my community may be as idiotic as others, but there are many Jews who are working against the cultish thinking. (If you are going to go after religious communities for their mistakes, Jews aren't the only group that will face judgments)
ditto. it's an awful experience, even for a white American. I sorta want to do Xanax the next time too, my anxiety builds for a day....
this was part of the response to goldstone: tone it down, because we're trying to pull off the 2ss
this is a hugely helpful statement, Hostage
Could that pelican actually pocket that tuna?
this is funny. better satire than the post.
i think i went easy on Kirsch. apparently he does some nazi analogizing in his piece....
thank you Brenda for your long readership. I urge you to speak up more.
And yes I echo your view that the comment board at this site is one of its great strengths, and great talents have come out of it i the classic social media way.
this is the heart of it. thanks parity
and let me add:
I am surprised by the expectation that there should be little censorship. All my life all I've seen is censorship, much of it selfimposed. Most commenters here use fake names. That in itself is a form of selfcensorship: they do not want to experience in real life the consequences of creating a reputation on line. That luxury is not available to me or Annie-- who, yes, disagrees with me here.
But all communities operate cnesoring rules. IT's part of building community. I willingly accept some of this censorship because the larger goal seems to me to be so much bigger and more worthy.
My bottom line personally is realist, and pretty close to American's. I come to this issue chiefly out of Iraq war and the sense that my country made a terrible mistake because of the Israel lobby among other causes. But I find that I curb a lot of my commentary on this site-- say about Jewish identity, about the place Jews have landed at this moment in history, so empowered, so successful-- out of the need to create community. And no I dont agree with Donald's prescriptions on the sociological score. I will continue to talk about Jewish success. But I aim to be careful because I see my role as trying to build an American community against the special relationship, and that is a community that will draw chiefly from liberals and realists, in order to grow. For me, this is a Clean for Gene deal. Like the McCarthy faithful of 68, being willing to adopt a different tone in order to knock on doors...
But again, the site's shadow that made me want to post this was PArity's refrain. That may be an inescapable shadow. As a friend said recently, I'd rather the company of an Israel hater than of a neocon right now, in the U.S.
Gotta check the rice...
annie, i think i pulled one such comment, nuking. so i was inclined to think that's not unusual.. phil
is there a difference between a freedom fighter and a commenter? we have truth on our side here. our side will triumph on FACTS. and this is a public square. When we invite freedom fighters up to speak, when we welcome them to speak, when we cheer them, that is one thing, when wounded brave people come up to speak, fabulous. Those people of action will be respected and often honored. But this is a two dimensional commenting space. And I dont see what calls for violence do to advance a conversation that has the truth on its side....
Hi Krauss. I'm not with you here. I imagine there may be some quarrel about Donald Johnson's items, but the atmosphere can be offputting, and it's a fringe of commentary that causes it, and the outreach issue, to all Americans and others of conscience, is crucial. I think the comment board is one of the great values of this site. It is filled with authoritative voices, informed voices, moral voices. But I think it suffers from some dark sentiments. I know that many comment boards have intemperate voices. And polarization of the issue is of course inevitable, there are two sides here generally speaking. But our side will win with the truth, with facts and logic, and lose by invective.. Phil
disturbing story MLE. thank you for sharing that.
I am so with you on 3, Kevin. Thank you for that. This is a very true reading of history. And it is shown today when I hear all the Jewish community support for civil rights. We were leaders in that, and Jewish leaders are generally blind on I/P.
this comment needs a good soundtrack
Thanks Avi. I agree. It is hard to summon the feeling of seeing this sort of article in the American press. And yes I think it has to do with the demographics of the NYT's audience, which includes a lot of advertisers and readers who will identify with this "seeker's" path to Jerusalem
so you dont want i/p to enter our mainstream discourse with any political sponsorship? myself i dont care who does it, i want it on television.
well dan one place im coming from is they aint my people. they're israelis. but im just trying to get up the latest breaking stuff on the Biggest Issue in American Foreign Policy!
Though no fan of Dahoit, this is where I agree. If you believe in the Israel lobby as a pernicious force, then you want Israel to make its own policy without a big brother (Hannah Arendt's word) holding the bag. If that were the case, then Is. would not attack its neighbors, it would find a way to live with them.
i was recently in that Casbah myself. beautiful spaces. with marks of invasion during the 2nd intifadah. and i was with a young feminist palestinian woman bringing me to the spice market to buy the dark dried lemons they sell. using them in my rice these days. i agree: the occupation would not last if there were field trips to Nablus....
sorry, thanks. will fix!
i couldnt find it. but it was at the top of the hour last night, 7 pm MSNBC
thank you Bill. I felt that that piece underplayed his central interest. Was I wrong?
brainwashing or brainwashed? does this stuff work on anybody?
thanks iamuglow, i hope you're right. i do enjoy the free exchange of ideas. and hope that we can extend that spirit in other ways
But Jerry Slater I'm sure would applaud Mary Robinson's work. His chapter in our Goldstone book was all about international law and Gaza.
well you surely know more about this than i do. my point was more to bridle at the reductivism that blankfort was bringing here. i dont like zionism. i wish it would go away. it's 19th century in its outlook, etc. but there are surely some ills of the 20th century that can't be blamed on zionists.
what i meant by that is is a determination to make arguments that are seize-on-able by newcomers who are imbued in the mainstream narrative. it's an issue of messaging, and to some degree, definitions of community. when jack ross described revolutionary movements that eat their young, the other day, or when people talk about the narcissism of small differences-- this is the kind of energy i mean to avoid in my own work
what about Jewish bolshevism, was that a factor in Nazi crackdown? What about the fact that long before the Nazis, Franz Kafka, in his diaries and letters, was fearful about anti-Semitism in central Europe and was sympathetic to Zionism on that score? Aren't you being reductive in a reflexively anti-Zionist manner?
Yesterday I was so upset by the rancor that was flowing through the comment thread on David Samel’s post responding to Jerry Slater that I jumped in toward the end of the day to defend Slater, whose liberal Zionism and argument for military intervention were being widely mocked. In doing so I overlooked the folks on my side of the substantive debate who were also getting pummeled—for instance, a devoted worker on this site, Annie Robbins, who was getting smeared in ugly terms. I’m sorry to Annie for this and hope she’ll forgive my haste. She is an incredibly valued member of our team on this site.
The thing I like the most about this site is that we can talk about heretical ideas openly, and that by doing so we can move the mainstream debate. Yes, I bend over backwards to try and include more mainstream voices, often from the Jewish community. I want them to be engaged here. I feel we’re irrelevant if mainstream visitors can’t recognize the language. But that desire doesn’t excuse forgetting about people who have been the heart and soul of this site. I know we can push the debate but I’m not going to succeed by forgetting about friends. I do urge all participants to make this conversation more civil, and I'll try and be a fairer and more thoughtful social media person going forward... Phil
what about begin's big mouth when they wiped out 100 people in deir yassin and hundreds of thousands fled. big mouths can be very threatening.
agree it's a glorious story. stunned that it's not widely discussed
Thanks Emma. Eloquent.
ouch yer right
thanks ches! same to you
wow i just edited that part because i thought it was wordy
are there blacks and hispanics supporting paul?
thank you. i was wondering. but it's brilliant the way the mood changes right when bauer changes, right? propagandistically?