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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Yes, I think that the more recent strategy of importing migrant labor from Asia and eastern Europe was quite intentional. Although those laborers have strong grievances about the slavery like conditions, they don't form a political block.
I'd be curious about methodology. Is there a land-line bias as Crowther suggests? I'll check it out if I have time. The numbers don't jive with my limited sampling out here in red state land but then I'm not chatting a lot with the sizeable minority of christian zionists here. Outside of those folks, I'd say Israel is not on the radar (but jobs/economy are!). The ex military I've met here are critical of Israel and our support.
Christian zionists are the big issue here. Big rallies, a tv station. scary.
Um, the Israeli/Zionist premise that all Jews do/should support apartheid is ant-semitic.
The Israeli position that Jews cannot live among other groups is anti-semitic.
Good point.
In my more paranoid moments, however, I did become suspicious of some of the timing of the media focus on the church crimes and coverups just as anti-war nuns were being sentenced to prison term in the us for protesting at fort Benning.
In both conflicts, the colonialists emphasized the ethnic dimension the most. If we start with the 1798 rising as a reasonable beginning to the "modern" phase of Irish rebellion, this was organized not by Catholics but Protestants: Wolftone, Emmet, etc (ok, I'm papering over some divisions within protestantisms in N. Ireland). Their has been a tension between more universalist (and often socialist) and nationalist/ethnic threads in both Irish and Palestinian resistance experiences. And the colonial side pushes the ethnic divisions. Same in South Africa.
RW: "How can Jews confidently live in a “democratic single state” with those that hold such views? "
This is an anti-semitic statement conflating the zionists with all Jews. So opposition to oppression is proof the oppression is justified?
implied.
A guy carrying a sawed-off shotgun walks into the hotel and asks everyone to hand over their money. He walks out with the cash and never uses the shotgun. Trustworthy.
I thought that was too generous to other Harvard professors --- the place is not known for high ethical standards. For example, crooked economist Martin Feldstein (see link to tinyrevolution.com
On the other hand, I've known some good biologists from Harvard. Still, I wouldn't let my kids go there.
Right. On.
Thanks Avi,
I was also confused by this piece. I agree that we can't put history back in a bottle" --- I assume this means "we can't ignore history." But we can work to undo the consequences of that history. Afrikaner nationalism was a "transformation" of the French Huguenot community. And 1994 was another transformation.
Well, violence, and the threat thereof, was also very important in ending apartheid. I prefer BDS.
There have been similar events at other universities. I know of a history department in which the local Jewish community got the university to eliminate an endowed chair position in ME studies (!) rather than let the department hire an arab-american scholar to whom the dept had offered the job. The university now has a chair in "Judaic history".
Funny :). I assume that was a witty impersonation.
Ok, yes, he has a white-supremacist constituency, but to imply that all Jews are white-supremacists is anti-semitic. Your first statement just mentioned Jewish population.
This is an offensive antisemitic statement and assumption. Were senators from states with large white populations supposed to support Rhodesia?
edit: ... at least for points 1 and 3.
Hey, I think I agree with Wondering Jew for once --- at for points 1 and 3. She said what she said, I don't agree with it. She apologized. It was an angry outburst and it pales in comparison to the anti-Palestinian comments that are routinely made by public figures. It should not be unforgiveable.
I think it close to impossible that Jews will be forced out of the Middle East --- although I see very few Israelis actually working to prevent that by setting up the foundations for a democratic state: one person, one vote, equal rights. Everything that Israel is doing is making bad outcomes more likely. In my opinion, someone like WJ who is worried about Jews being forced out of the ME should be actively working for a single state solution.
Dude, can't we just be happy the idiot isn't here? Don't jinx it.
WJ, you are not serious, are you?
1) To understate . . . Lebanon's borders are slightly different than Gaza's . . . are you really someone who believes that the closure of Gaza has anything to do with weapons? If so, this is the problem: Israelis and zionists believe their own propaganda.
2) From my perspective, it is a good thing Hizbollah had arms to protect themselves or Lebanon would be under Israeli occupation and therefore a country I could not visit. if you are an Israeli and covetous of the Litani, then your perspective may differ.
Yes, that is exactly what Israel has. And South Africa had a similar plan with the Tricameral Parliament.
Anyone have the full words to (or a recording of) the song Tommy Sands is singing in that video at the end?
We are sailing away, with hope in our soul
Sailing to say, “You are not alone.”
Sailing today, “Salam, Shalom,”
For peace on the shores of Gaza.
"Apartheid South Africa, by contrast, had no such moral standing. The government’s overt racism offended Western political sensibilities far more than Israel’s occupation of Palestinian land, and American and European policymakers did not believe white South Africans deserved protection in the same way Jews did after the Holocaust."
The Holocaust was enormous and the dangers of fascism apparent. But unless you rely on some sort of racial/cultural essentialism, there is no reason to think that Jews would be the most likely victims the next time a holocaust happens. One purely factual grounds, the Afrikaners had a better case for minority protection (they existed nowhere else on the earth). And they had all the familiar justifications for "self rule": they had been the first victims of concentration camps, etc. Victimhood as an rational for oppression of others is an old story.
I've met conservative Afrikaners who admire Israel and shake their heads: "that is exactly what we wanted, it was allowed for Israel but not for us." Hell, they'd been there three and a half centuries and God also gave them that land.
South Africa was terrible at hasbara and lacked a dedicated set of people outside the country who were defending it. Unlike Rhodesia, the Afrikaan nationalists in South Africa never appealed to "pan-whiteness." Not that that helped Rhodesia in the end --- American mercenaries played a minor role. An attempt to buy an American paper by a branch of South African intelligence ended up causing the Muldergate scandal that contributed to Botha's downfall.
"First of all, persecution and victimhood bestow neither wisdom nor virtue. Jews are no better than anyone else, for having suffered."
Excellently said.
"He confuses the meanings of anti-semitism, to only include the definition of Jewish by birth (race). In contrast, Jewish by association (community, institutions) IS a form of anti-semitism."
This makes no sense at all. Jewish by association is antisemitism? What? Are you arguing that gay rights depend upon if the evidence supports biological determinism vs choice?
Barghouti made perfect sense: Claiming that someone who is anti-Israel is anti-Jewish is itself clearly antisemitic. This claim assumes that "Jews" support Israel and this as abhorrent as claiming that "Muslims" are terrorists. Just as it was a white supremacist argument that all whites should support Ian Smith's Rhodesia or South Africa under the Nats.
"It was a mistake as my studying economics and later accounting was a mistake, as my joining a yoga organization was a mistake, as your attending Harvard was a mistake."
I have to agree with the economics and accounting, but yoga? Surely you didn't kill many folks that way, Witty? Friends don't let friends go to Harvard or commit genocide.
Oh, I see, you are a 9-11 conspiracy buff. I'll tell you about 4x4s, and you can tell me about steel melting.
Oh, Avi got there first. I was also going to call bullshit on our current resident white supremacist. Assuming it was the common AIL Storm jeep, it can easily ram and upturn a tractor (the tractors I've seen most Palestinian farmers using are not huge canola-harvesting combines).
Ho hum another murder. But the IDF know how to spot the swart gevaar.
Fair enough, but for far too long I've seen the whole issue of Palestine framed in the US according to the perspective of these liberal Zionists (or, more specifically, American Jews who are Zionists, some of whom are liberal). This partly attests to the important place that some liberal Zionists have had in working on what is broadly the "pro-Palestinian" side -- or even the importance of Jewish anti-Zionists who are sensitive to the types of arguments that will work on their Zionists family and friends. But I'm interested in changing American policy and attitudes, and at some point, it is important to realize that these liberal Zionists are an extreme minority in the US overall. Now one can argue correctly that they represent opinion shapers, etc.
On the hearts and minds, I agree. More generally: when arguing reason and persuasion, one needs to start from a position the audience is already at in order to find common ground and move people to examine their current positions. But some messages meet multiple audiences and there are trade-offs. For example, the anti-interventionist Ron Paul-type message plays a lot better with most folks in my neck of the woods, although it may not play well at the local synagogue.
You're right that name-calling serves little purpose. That's one reason rarely post --- I see little reason to even engage with some of the white-supremacist zionist . . . oops,see, there I go.
Thanks Hasbara Buster. I was going to make the same point as South African history is one of my main interests.
Arab Mks face a pretty severe limitation on enacting any change in the country when promoting equality is specifically prohibited: it is illegal for political parties to promote a platform that denies Israel's existence as a "Jewish and democratic" state. Right there the lie of Israeli democracy is laid bare.
Shmuel: Exactly. The folks who criticize use of the term 'apartheid' usually have no understanding of either South Africa nor the Occupied Territories. The points at which the analogy is imprecise are not complementary to the Israelis!
Good discussion. Those are excellent points, Shmuel and James. I think all human rationality works within the sorts of boundaries you described. I know many people who are smart and rational within one system, yet have completely nutso beliefs if you draw those boundaries or "rules" slightly differently.
I agree, I'd rather that Goldstone and Freeman exist than not!
And there is the issue of allies. To the extent that the goals of improving lives and justice in Palestine is in concordance with the interests of the elite and the views of sane imperialists, it is good to have folks making the argument.
Keith: Well said.
Or, you could check it out and actually decide for yourself if it is out of context. Amazing idea! You'd even be allowed to do that and then report back here with your own actual argument.
Another example of typical bad-faith zionist crap. Since I love to do work for lazy-ass racists, here you go:
From Bronners propaganda dated Feb 17 2010 (link to nytimes.com
"One main message of the campaign is that Israel is a technically advanced and diverse society and that its government policies are not the source of regional conflict. It notes that a number of important agricultural breakthroughs have occurred here, including drip irrigation and the development of the cherry tomato."
No fact checking, just pure stenography.
No, they were amateurs.
When South African intelligence tried to buy some American newspapers it was actually a scandal in SA and contributed to the end of a P.W. Botha's presidency.
Mooser's reply is more on-topic than mine --- the post was about the times Jerusalem reporting.
Witty: Exactly. He's more reasonable than you, but still caught up in racism.
Roger Cohen's Feb 12th column was an excellent example of zionist discourse. I'm sure he's a nice reasonable guy, but his assumptions are quite racist --- eg an admiring reference to the "zionist dream". Hell, the first paragraph gives away the game with his assertion that the US has tried to coax "Zionism and Arab nationalism" to "peaceful coexistence". Coax is a strange word to describe bankrolling Israel's arsenal.
Thanks for this report.
As disheartening as such passivity can be, it is important to remember that this is not unique to Palestine. This story reminded my of passages from William Finnegan's _Crossing the Line_ which I read decades ago. Finnegan was an American working as a school teacher in Grassy Park township of Cape Town. I remember he asked a friend about the widespread conservatism and avoidance of politics by many coloureds and blacks. He was surprised and somewhat disappointed. But to some extent, repression works, people learn to survive and many just keep their heads down. Those who do resist often pay a high price.
While I'm thinking of old books, that reminds me . . .
The main character in Sahar Khalifeh's Wild Thorns (published in 1976 as Al-Subar) is also disgusted by the passivity he sees upon returning to Nablus. The novel deals with his coming to terms with this. Of course conditions have worsened considerably in the West Bank since then --- that was before Israel started importing foreign workers for menial jobs and there were many West Bank Palestinians working in Israel.
Shmuel -
"I would not be surprised to find that many of the wealthy Jews who lobby for and support Israel do so for much the same reasons that wealthy non-Jews do, rather than some selfless sense of ethnic/religious commitment. "
Excellent point. The ethnic identity issue can help in rationalization or in keeping activities acceptable to a social group, but I also would suspect that, in many cases, rationalization is wrapped around economic interest.