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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
I see another endless Israeli-style logic/legal/hasbara opening there.
If/When the international community finally did get serious about using international law to bring some justice to the Palestinians by using a referendum to clarify the illegality of the occupation, Israel could turn around and argue that any such referendum would be invalid because most of the participants in the referendum were not entitled to vote because they were refugees, not legal residents.
I'd call myself cynical, if this kind of circularity wasn't a staple of the pro-Israel argument, here and elsewhere.
I hope some good comes from this. Both to shine another light on injustice in the Israeli detention and humiliation system, but also to spotlight the outrageous decision to award Israel the UEFA U21 tournament at the same time it is preventing Palestinians from playing in FIFA tournaments elseqhere (whether by direct imprisonment as it is here, or by denial of exit and/or reentry permits).
I thought that unfettered access for sport was one of FIFA's prime directives. Israel simply cannot expect let alone demand normalcy when it absolutely refuses to reciprocate.
Thanks for posting this. More power to your son. May he continue to represent Palestine, on and off the pitch, for many years to come.
And the ADL sez...?
So the handicappers at inTrade give a 40% chance of global economic meltdown by the end of the year.
Low enough risk, I guess, to bomb a non-existent nuclear weapons program to salve a un-salvable "ally" to get money/media to get re-elected. I mean it's better than 50-50 that there won't be a global economic meltdown, isn't there? What's everybody whining about? This is the kind of leadership I can really cast a vote for. True dice-rolling, bet-your-farm risk takers don't come along very often.
BTW, InTrade is great for the handicapping, but they don't always pay their bets.
That seems to mean J-Street wants to have its proverbial cake and eat it too. To represent itself to be a nominal outsider without taking an actual "outsider" position, publicly.
What cowardice. And I used to donate to help support an "option" to the status-quo.
There was a video a year or so ago that had the J-Street "policy" director "debating" (actually deferring in the extreme) to Dersh that showed this cowardice. What a waste of hope/money (on my part) and opportunity (on their part). I can't find it now.
Not killed. Executed. For a minor traffic accident.
@Annie And with all the fuss about madrassas a few years ago, being crucibles for hate.
Thanks, tgia. Didn't know his history.
@ Mark b.
Yup.
The settlers are seen streaming down the hill away from the fire zone toward the village, before the fire. They were attacking (or cordoning)- before the fire was set.
What really happened, imo:
Settlers, bent on harassment, as per usual set fire to Palestinian lands and crops. As ykohen said (elements of truth and all that), the wind this time was blowing in the wrong direction, endangering the settlement. Ooops, settlers then try to put out their own fires. Palestinians, thinking the attack is still on, continue to throw stones. Settlers, realizing their rabid stupidity, open fire on the Palestinians in defense of their settlement. Voila, anatomy of a "self-defense" claim.
On a less assumptive note, I wish someone would or could "Ken Burns" one or some of these attacks with chronology and maps showing Palestinian land, settlements on Palestinian land, with actions overlaid. It would take maybe four or five maps to show the progression. I think it would go a long way toward showing that settlers are the instigators and just how egregious this ritual arson is.
@ykohen Every time you goof balls try to post evidence to support your "position" it shows why you so rarely do so.
Any normal person reading that Charter and the "Article 24" link you just provided would understand that it means exactly the opposite of what you just wrote.
The entire charter is laced with phrases like "the Palestinian homeland." It specifically and repeatedly describes Palestinian nationality and territory as being a real thing.
Your Article 24 assertion was even more bizarre. As part of the Charter of the PLO, A24 simply, clearly, and ONLY states that the PLO is not the government. That's why it's #24. That's why you left off the second half of the text. Full Article:
For someone to zip past all that comes before A24 in the PLO Charter, and settle on A24 as a proclamation that "Palestine doesn't exist and therefore the land belonged to no one until WE came along" is an archtypical demonstration of how utterly bankrupt and untenable your thinking is (as well as your reason for being there on Palestinian land). More bluntly, it's just a thinly veiled version of the "land without a people" racist credo.
You spout settler fantasy so I assume you're a settler. Why don't you just say you're there because you have the guns and you can do anything you want. At least that would be honest. Also, you should bear in mind that in the near future, you will be living under Palestinian laws, so the "might makes right" precedent you set now may well come back and bite you in the "hilltop" (or ass...). Ten years from now the people in the house next door and across the street will be Palestinians with equal rights.
Important post. Reeling, and the subsequent scrambling to maintain popular acquiescence to support for Israel through the economic benes of joint exercises is probably, by definition, unsustainable.
"Nailed" it.
"But if sent out by postal mail, it was signed by Pitts."
That's been my experience, FWIW.
Wow. Pretty f'd up s't.
I guess that my take and/or point is that terms/concepts like "Manifest Destiny" and "peopling of the West" have come to be regarded, broadly and correctly, as negatives, by the vast majority of people in the US.
God, we could get into a lengthy conversation about whether that's reversible or not (it certainly is), why and how, but at the moment, there is a general awareness of wrong about those past beliefs. Not so in Israel.
I agree about the residual slurs, like "Redskins," but the naming conventions on military weapons is a long-held paean to a couple of the virtues of Native Americans. Fierceness and tenacity. That doesn't preclude any of the other virtues. But then, taking someone's identity without asking ("Israeli" couscous=Maftoul) is wrong.
Long conversation...
Very much to be done.
@seafoid and lysias
Yeah, As I was writing the thought felt too broad, but I do feel that we and most colonial powers have at least established a pivot point on the morality of doing it again. A reference with which to clarify what's right and wrong going forward. As you both say, we have done it, and it took 150 years for us to start thinking about it, and another 100 years to decide on the morality. It's a long-term, ongoing, imperfect, and painful process to maintain that direction, but it is a general positive direction imo.
When a few hundred people hold up a sign that says "Nakba, BS" it's like someone here holding up a sign saying "Wounded Knee was OK with Me." I don't see that happening here, apart from hate groups.
So I think there is a real difference between there and here (though I admit our backsliding wrt Muslims), at this point. The questions to me are whether the Israelis will ever advance beyond "Trail of Tears"-era (1830s) US societal thinking, and what the means for the Palestinians.
When I read stuff like this, 60+ years after the initial fact, in an electronic info era, I don't see them making the transition, if left to their own devices. The prospect of Israel learning these known lessons on the backs and necks of the Palestinians for the next 50-100 years is painful to contemplate. Drawing these distinctions makes me hope, rightly or wrongly, that the contrast between Israel's entrenched 19. c mindset and modern thinking can be heightened, and enough people shocked, so the 50-100 years might become 10-30 years.
Points taken, though. BDS.
One big difference between our despicable colonial treatment of American Indians and Israel's current and ongoing despicable colonial treatment of the Palestinians is that we never denied what we did. Some celebrated it, some said it was OK, some that it was necessary, some neo-liberally lamented it as a byproduct of a greater good, but never that it didn't happen.
That collective acknowledgement enabled us as a society to identify and address (to whatever extent we've been successful in doing so) the unchecked immorality that enabled us to do it. Despite all the foreknowledge and historical lessons available to it showing the healing and coexistence benefits, Israel stridently and forcefully resists that collective acknowledgement.
Israeli introspection could be the beginnings of a fundamental de-"delegitimization" tool, but Israel is hell-bent on fighting its fundamental morality/justice crisis with a losing and increasingly debased (as in responding in tangential terms, e.g. pinkwashing) PR effort. Wish they'd get on with it.
"Israeli" products?!?
Who will come to our rescue, eGuard?
"...Israeli organization Zochrot urged the university to place a plaque on the wall of the lounge, recognizing the history of Sheikh Muwannis. To date the administration has rebuffed their request."
Elsewhere, "Hier wohnte..."
This is the counterpoint to "losing." :)
Kathleen just told of an acquaintance who surprised her by being at least aware of the situation in Palestine. The Methodist debate yielded similar experiences for me. Seemingly out of the blue, a newspaper in heartland, Charleston, WV starts a discussion about Israeli Apartheid (as a carryover from the Kairos-UMC debate). 60 Minutes. The challenge to the conventional wisdom on this really is veining out.
But then I read the comments...
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Leading with the antisemitism charge really is the act of desperate people. I hope the GAZ editors, who may not experience or be aware how routine this practice is, can stand the heat.
Explicitly so. And the definition says if "any" of the five listed criteria are satisfied, it's genocide. Israel is doing at least two.
link to hrweb.org
Thanks for bringing this up.
@ American Yep. Red flags. Lessons learned, enough to project forward and see where Israel's unchecked and brutally escalating behaviour might be heading.
The five outcomes of continued Israeli settlement and assimilation are known. 2SS (dead), 1SS (prospect of a protracted C/R struggle that Israel deems an Existential battle), Hafrada-stans (total separation, with international [government] acceptance, at least at first, pending grass-roots action), expulsion (slo-mo with international acquiescence, onging), or extermination (we've tried everything and they just won't leave and we're not going to allow the "destruction of Israel," end game).
Nobody believes (or wants to believe) that the last one will happen, but then nobody believed, in advance, that 6M Jews and a similar number of undesired others would be herded into death camps. Who knows what unchecked desires lead to, even in Israel.
Red flags are important context.
@Sumud Exactly. GDP isn't the measure. Israel simply wouldn't exist in it's current, self-described, "modern, western" form, if not for the stolen Palestinian resources.
AKA, ALL the water[sheds] in the region.
Old map. Ongoing, though ever so slightly constrained (Jordan), process. Explains almost everything about this conflict, its zero-sum and/or covetous bitterness, its lack of a resolution, and a lot of the comments here in support of the above from the resident hasbarachiks.
@Denis It doesn't matter because he knew going in that he was choosing a path that had a high probability of resulting in his death. It's probably more likely that he wrote it before he started and got it smuggled out, before all the notice. Call it a will of sorts. Someone almost certainly did fill in the number of days.
Again, I can't see that it matters when he wrote it or the mechanics of its release. The sentiments expressed are genuine and representative of the thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli detention purgatory.
All of which is moot, because his strike is over.
Well said.
Tears too. But also, so much for that "when they love their children..." racist BS.
I hope this goes viral. Brick by brick. [Deliberately propagated] misrepresentation by [deliberately propagated] misrepresentation.
This letter is what Everyman would say to his unseen daughter in similar circumstances. EVERY man.
Agree, Annie. Or even on Day 1, knowing the potential (likely?) outcome of what he was entering into.
It doesn't matter one whit when he wrote it, if he dies without prospect of a better life, in unspecified, indeterminate, and hopeless (literally) Israeli detention.
And in the company of so many others in the same situation...
At this point, knowing nothing else of history, Nakba, "humiliations galore," tens of thousands of dead Palestinians and Lebanese (Arabs), indefinite detentions, 40-year Occupation, and/or numerous failures to embrace Palestinian overtures, a Martian would have to conclude that there's always something [new] that's "the" obstacle to resolving this justly...
...something other than consistent, deliberate Israeli policy over generations, of course.
Ditto, Shingo. This is like watching a customized book being written in real time. Amazing.
Thanks Hostage.
@Oleg Well, my bad. So how many times HAVE you stayed with a Palestinian family in the WB or Gaza? Invited that is, not as part of some takeover of a home as an observation point or other such implementation of the Occupation humiliation outreach program.
Looking forward to part 2.
Ever been to the Palestinian remnants of the WB and stayed with a Palestinian family for even a day, let alone a week or month? Shared their reality?
Thought not (and the corollary is "Why not?" Fear I suspect. Raw fear, and not of the physical harm variety either. More of the challenging fundamental mythology variety, which is much more threatening to people like you, and the Israeli cab driver.).
Every account, like this one, where an Israeli Jew, or any Jew for that matter, makes the small effort to live beyond the wall for more than a day trip, is a story of transformation. That's a "reality" problem that you and people that think like you have that is vastly more powerful, influential, and transcendent than the typical "Blah. Blah. Blah." retort.
I'm not sure you're informed enough to make broad pronouncements about ME realities (plural).
Or worse, much worse... Cast Lead was a campaign event.
Olmert was out there competing for the very same right-wing campaign cash after all.
First the "Apartheid" statement. Now this. Olmert sounds almost ripe for a Truth and Reconciliation type unburdening. Israel's Joe Valachi.
There's some pretty big implications (beyond annexation) in that piece. Especially toward the end. I'm not sure I quite understand what Halper is saying (e.g. whether Palestinians taking an exclusive lead in the (traditionally)/their (as Halper states[?]) own struggle is a good or bad thing) yet.
This article has the kind of "out of left field-y" (to me anyway) recombinant (factually) niggle of revelation - just out of reach. Or it could be nothing. Don't know yet.
Thanks, Talkback. I'll have to re-read it a few times to understand it. I hope it's discussed here.
Yeah...
"The picture that emerges is exactly that painted by Yuval Diskin: a Holocaust-obsessed fantasist, out of contact with reality, distrusting all Goyim, trying to follow in the footsteps of a rigid and extremist father – altogether a dangerous person to lead a nation in a real crisis."
...With Nukes.
I don't know how much the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists factor actual crazy people being actually in charge of a few hundred nukes and long-range delivery systems, into their Doomsday Clock appraisal (5 minutes 'til at the moment), but they should.
link to thebulletin.org
Sent them this article link. A tick of the Clock in the wrong direction is a fairly significant thing. If Israeli nuke-amplified warmongering was the cause of such a tick, it would be significant PR setback for Israel's self-perceived "interests."
On that note, it was funny-sad, in an ironic and unintentionally self-mocking sense, to read Barak's recent breathless exclamation about nukes in the hands of an unstable regime in the middle of an unstable region being a bad thing, implicitly (and just shy, as usual, of explicitly) worthy of war.
“Just imagine the most unstable elements in the hands of the most unstable regime in one of the most unstable regions of the world,” he warned. ...
I read it here first, but from the NYT:
link to nytimes.com
A friend once said that there is little, if any, self-awareness in the rhetorical claims offered in support of letting Israel do whatever it wants to do. True dat, and we see it at MW from the resident hasbaratchiks. That/their continuing divergence from reality (and/or complete reliance on what has worked so well in the past) will be a major contributor to the collapse of the predominant "more-more-more (more-more-and-even-more)" strain of modern Zionism. People just see right through it if exposed to it for more than the time it takes to scratch your head and ponder for a brief moment.
The act of a hunger strike is a profound, moving, and un-ignorable statement in the face of perpetual hopelessness and oppression.
But, and it's not a dismissive "but," rather an accusatory one, Israel will not let these strikers die. To let Bilal Diab and Tha’er Halahleh die is to bring massive attention and condemnation to the indeterminate detentions, and Israeli policy is to fly just under the radar of outrage. Adnan was near death and his demands were met. These and the rest of the current hunger-strikers will have their demands met as well. They will be granted release before they die.
The point of Israel stretching it out like this is to make it as painful as possible for them to do it again when they are re-arrested, while avoiding the international condemnation that would come with hunger-strike deaths (and all that points out in terms of Israeli detention system practices).
I know this sounds like a pretty sick and demented view of Israeli practices, but then why do they continuously arrest, re-arrest, and detain for years Palestinians for spurious charges in the first (or second, or third, or...) place.
Petition signed, gladly. Thanks.
"Just that if you are going to boycott, you are going to have trouble finding a computer or phone that doesn’t have chips that trace back to Israel."
Point being, if enough people personally boycott "chips that trace back to Israel" the marginal and decidedly preferential (imposed qualitative) business decisions to locate in Israel will become decisions to locate elsewhere.
What's done is done, but what isn't done becomes a consideration.
Actually, Medea/Code Pink IS how the US values freedom of speech, if that makes sense.
@Danaa I know of the Israeli laws that criminalize advocacy for BDS, but I'm not aware of any in the "West." That is my shortcoming. Any foreknowledge of that would give us here in the US some advance notice of such efforts and would be greatly appreciated. Like send it to Greenwald...
If one can't act on one's own conscience, then we're truly in thought police mode.
And the full-blown cynic in me says that when this level of readily apparent logic and/or equally readily apparent cause/effect context is disregarded, there are outside influences involved.
Oh to be the proverbial fly on the wall in these deliberations among delegates...
And I think/agree that the personal, quiet, non-discussed boycott is what is going to make the most difference in this conflict. Just people doing the right thing at a personal level. Information (and a genuine belief, on my part, I guess, that people DO want to see "right" be done in the 21. c) is the key to that. In that sense, this was a win in the long-view, as it brought the contradictions and supporting coercions out publicly.
OK, so if investment in Palestine is the method of choice here, then build some solar power arrays, or wind turbines, or water wells in Area B/C, see what happens, get with the government of Spain, compare notes, distribute the notes to all the delegates involved in this decision, and revisit this in a year (if possible) or four (the next plenary; not sarcasm).
Which leads to some questions: CAN this be revisited next year with new information, and were specific plans put in place to invest in Palestine? Or was the "positive investment" tack simply a deflection?
Everyone* knows what happens to "positive investment" in Palestine. It gets demolished. Almost certainly by the very same company's equipment that the UMC just declined to divest from. The irony not only drips, it gushes.
But then, on a very sarcastic (and maybe a little bitter) note, if the UMC invests in Palestine, it would raise demand for more equipment from the company they just chose not to divest from. Win-Win...
Thanks AH/all. The "bright side" suggests that there is an education process going on here. One that has moved the debate (and threats) to public record/memory. That's a good thing.
*I was going to say, "Everyone here knows..." but "Everyone" is vastly more accurate.
Great observations.
@Krauss Yup, pretty similar to leadership in the Democratic Party. Or really just about all the so-called "left" in the US (including Labor). In decline. Timid. Unnecessarily and self-destructively so.
Except for maybe the Occupy... effort, and of course Medea and Code Pink. I'm literally in awe of Medea Benjamin and the Pinks. True courage. True leaders.
The short answer is Yes. BUT, in doing so, I would do (and/or insist upon with my vote) four things:
1) That a sincere (heretofore unexplored) non-military solution be pursued vigorously. Avoid at all costs a subscription to the racist view that Arabs/Palestinians are intrinsically violent and/or want the destruction of Israel (whatever that means). Subscribe to/embrace the view, with all my/your heart that Palestinians DO "love their children" and proceed from there as a fundamental guiding principle. Take a risk, given new information.
2) (Or maybe 1a) Acknowledge that bombing (starving, depriving, demolishing, humiliating...) people into submission doesn't work and hasn't worked. Palestinians are never going to leave and/or move on. Your own history tells you that. Seek another path. Solve the problem.
3) Travel to the WB and/or Gaza and live like a Palestinian. For a month, not just a day trip. You would be accepted, though you would almost certainly be feared as well. Maybe the latter would be gratifying in a certain self-diminishing sense, but it would be only one miniscule part of a complex path to understanding how to solve this problem, and the net result would expand, if not blow, your mind.
4) Re-examine your damn founding mythology. Personally and publicly. Embrace the reality of the intransigency of the problem.
I'm amazed at how few Israelis do any, let alone all, of these things. If my government was pursuing a good-faith, negotiated path to solving the rocket problem, I would gladly endure, because I would see a positive outcome. The fact that there is NO good-faith effort to solve this non-militarily (like it could be solved militarily as we are learning in the US) would cause me to move on, if I had options.
Amen.
Yeah buddy... Well said.
@CnD Please do be less "shoot first"-y and, yes, it was doubly brave of him.
The underlying problem has to be solved collaboratively, imho.
@ahhiyawa American's point was that there is only one lobby group that comes close to trumping (or exceeds) the influence that the most powerful administration constituency, US DoD and Intelligence infrastructure, has on US war/foreign policy. If it was say, Big Oil pushing for war with Iran and the DoD "counseled" against it, discussion over. Not so with Big Israel.
You may be right about Obama, but it seems to me that he mainly wafts around on these currents of influence rather than asserts himself within them.
I wish he would go, and plant some olive trees.
نحن هذا شجرة الزيتون
"We are this olive tree." (Apologies from Google.)
So right.
And the regrettable fact that there even seems to be an ongoing political stalemate (publicly verbal or actual policy) shows the power of the Lobby. If this was a contention between the DoD and any other domestic constituency, it would not be a contest.
In contrast, in the US, "distributed by..." has replaced "made in..."
It's hard to tell at this point whether the weakening of this type of labeling in the US has anything to do with Israel, but it sure seems complementary.
I just went into Sam's and saw a little plastic garden cart that would work for me. As it turns out it was made "in Israel" by Keter, an Israeli company (they sell plastics everywhere in the US. Look for it!...) . Keter has at least one plant in the WB (God knows where the waste goes). I didn't buy it.
But because I didn't know exactly where it was made, I couldn't engage people that did pick one up to buy with simple challenges like "made using coerced labor" or some such (it doesn't help that Sam's is a Walton enterprise and totally embraces coerced labor as a rule). I could have made something up like "Factory located on land confiscated from a Christian family..." though that would have been a probable lie.
I still struggle, knowing what I know about the situation, with how to compellingly couch "Made in Israel" with point-of-purchase advocacy for the Palestinian cause.
Point of agreement being, it's really hard to advocate a true and compelling story about product origin (and conditions in that production origin, and why not to buy) when labeling is so deliberately vague, and the back story is so long. It sounds like classic anti-semitism to the uninitiated, which it is not.
Thanks for this info. Glad you euros are at least being stricter about labeling.
Israel is playing a very very dangerous game by falsely portraying and/or politicizing its treatment of non-tourist Christians. It only takes one vocal Baptist minister somewhere in the heartland to flip his switch based on information in an article like this and the contrived allegiances of the US-Israel support system blows up. That wouldn't be at all bad except for the real anti-semitism that would come with it. Good article, bad portent.
Toles should have spelled out Palestine in the holes (or made the holes bigger). That's much more akin to the reality.
Is this a backpedal of sorts? Is this analogical reversal of reality a softening of the message? This makes it look like the Palestinians are getting most of what they want with just a few settlements to deal with, i.e. whiners. Though that portrayal doesn't seem to be the intent of the cartoon.
If he's going to go to all this trouble... Baby steps I guess.
Your imaginary world has got you so twisted up hasbaratically that you don't see it, do you?
As the Israelis take more land, the Palestinian case becomes stronger, not weaker.
As the two-state option shrivels right before our eyes (the roots are already dead), one-state becomes the only option. As the only option (outside of ethnic cleansing/genocide), it is the position everyone will then adopt and move toward as a protest motivator and, in the case of most governments, political outcome (whether out of weariness or preference, it doesn't matter).
The two-state option was always a hypothetical based upon some [always in the] future negotiated result. The one-state condition is an existing fact. The Palestinians just have to do nothing and there it is. Political inertia is a powerful force. Perhaps the second MOST powerful, next to fear.
Israel has "Eretz"-ed itself right into a very tight corner (from your/its perspective).
Palestinians could, and maybe should, release all the transcripts and minutes of all the negotiations for the past 20 years (good, bad, and ugly), and disband the PA. That would further force Israel deeper into its self-created Apartheid/Hafrada corner by putting the onus for supporting the occupied population on Israel.
In the unsolicited advice department: Beyond your obvious rhetorical non-seriousness, you're your own worst enemy. You facilitate the outcome you most despise.
@Annie Well said.
Oops... the rest of the comment...
@jonrich111 Some of what you say sounds reasonable, but it doesn't seem to, to me anyway, tie together into a consistent world view. The future tense in this statement is why:
"Zionism is struggling for Jews to have a nation-state."
Jews HAVE a nation-state. They are not struggling TO have one.
Every time that future condition is included in a description of the problem, it's a huge red flag. It means that the person making the statement is simply looking past the current reality and on to some "keeping our boots on the necks of the Palestinians for a few more years isn't so bad because by then we'll have concluded our 'struggle' to create a Jewish nation-state." rationalization for doing nothing to solve the problem, now.
You see this rationalization from so-called liberal Zionists all the time. It's the fundamental and selfishly irreconcilable flaw of that conflicted mindset, imo. "Just a few more years. Remember, this is about us. We've almost got it right. Be patient. How bad can it really be [e.g. with the WB economy improving by 8% last year, and I've never been to Gaza so I can't really comment on what's going on there.]?"
The dire necessity of someday achieving a future condition which is actually a living, breathing, current reality is cited to justify all sorts of nonchalance and/or outright disingenuous-ness. Maybe you used that phrasing by mistake, but it is a very common refrain in these discussions from lib-zios. It's core mythology.
@jonrich111 Some of what you say seems reasonable, but it doesn't seem to, to me anyway, tie together into a consistent world view. The future tense in this statement is why:
Well, yes, but what seems like a lament is in fact a perfect description of leadership.
I guess I'm old enough to remember Dick Fosbury and the "Fosbury Flop." Fosbury was ridiculed for this wacky, how-could-it-ever-work high-jumping style, that just happened to win a gold medal in the 1968 Olympics.
The moral to his story is that his technique, and his implementation of his technique yielded only modest, long-term gains for him personally (gold medal aside), but his successors/imitators realized that his innovation was the basis for improvements and all that was to follow, with substantial gains in the achievable high-jump height. I believe the "Flop" is the norm, even now.
It's an analogy, but also a dynamic.
Agree. Plus his [feigned or real, who knows?] diffidence invited the open-ended and potentially devastating question of WHY it's not worth it (to criticize Israel in depth). Just another, though prominent, pointer at the enforcement mechanism of the Lobby. IOW, a "What are they afraid of?" moment.
I think that maybe an even more important implication of how Krugman phrased himself is that he did it before the fact. Should [heh] he get hammered for this, he has doubly highlighted the constraints imposed on bringing info to the US because he correctly predicted an outcome.
@Fredblogs
What completely lazy, counter-factual, repetitious, and yet somehow expected, bs.
"Withdrawal" from Gaza simply didn't happen, and still hasn't happened. Israel withdrew a few thousand illegal settlers. Once again, for the kazillionth time, Israel continues to occupy:
1) 100% of the airspace.
2) 80% of the fisheries/100% of the prime fisheries.
3) 30% of the arable land.
4) 100% of the natural gas deposits.
In addition, Israel interdicts 50% of the fresh water/aquifer replenishment.
In addition, Israel sends forces into Gaza, and/or "plinks" "Palis" (sorry, I know it's a racist term, but how else can one explain the utter disdain that must be in place to shoot flechette tank rounds at, or snipe/kill Palestinian gleaners) at any time it deems fit.
In addition, Israel blockades Gaza, and act of war. So if war it is, rockets are to be expected, no?
The occupation of Gaza never ended, amigo.
The BDS "movement" imo, is like the seven blind men describing the elephant. Each had different perceptions, but they were all still describing the elephant. BDS is only a power tool for Palestinians as a [democratically represented] group to use to whatever end. No more, no less. If it wasn't having effect, the GoI wouldn't be passing laws making it punishable to support (for Israeli and diaspora Jews). They're (GoI) afraid. Very afraid. It's a game changer. Increasingly so.
And all because they (GoI and Israelis at large) refuse to consider the choice(s) I described to you.
So you can go on believing (or proclaiming) that "extermination" is one pole of the choices presented, but it isn't. It simply isn't. It's crazy-talk. Fewer and fewer people, even Jews, believe that. It's an increasingly non-serious position, and will be reflected as such in the politics of those involved (i.e. everyone who wishes Israel well).
I know that a lot of people who post here don't like the 2SS outcome, but to me it's the preferred outcome, assuming sovereignty and some nod (compensation+) to the RoR, and some actual observance of the '67 borders as a limiting description of Israel. The 1SS is the default, do-nothing outcome. You are helping that happen with these inane [and repetitive/unoriginal] arguments. Your task, should you choose it, is to acknowledge that you are helping the 1SS to happen, or, STOP doing so.
That's your personal choice.
(And thanks to mig...)
NO. The choice, the rational choice (and that may be the hangup), that BDS presents is for Israel and Israelis to live and let live within the boundaries and moral constraints of the '67 borders. Stop the expansion and occupation and killing in pursuit of both. Revisit the mythology. To actually become a normal 21. century democratic state among other 21. century democratic states (US aside). To realize that as BDS gains traction, the world is trying to send Israel a message/offer of acceptance, not one of "extermination."
But as you say, the chances of rationality entering into the picture are pretty slim. And as PW says in his letter, the violence in Israeli society is all queued up to avoid making that rational choice at all costs. I don't know why. '67 Israel exists. Accept that and move on to better things.
Agree.
Brilliant letter. Thoughtful, genuine, contextual, urgent, and assertively inclusive. "Let's solve this together. It's time..." is more effective with people (let's face it, 95% of Methodists, and, well, everybody) that may be new to the issue and are confronted with the seemingly 0-to-120, though actually long-festering, criticality that defines it, and which they are being asked to embrace in real time.
Pitch perfect, imho. Thank you. I think it will help.
Agree. I wish that they wouldn't leave the ... at the end though for viewers to connect the dots about Israeli interference. The interview with Oren is deserving of its own segment to specifically connect those dots. The "There's a first time for everything..." statement is a hole you could drive a media frenzy through. There was a whole movie about Big Tobacco doing this (The Insider).
I believe that Simon answered your question. The Holy Land is of profound interest to half of humanity. It is supposedly the source of moral guidance to that same half of humanity. What happens there is therefore of some considerable interest. And what is happening there is wrong/immoral. As is defending that ongoing wrongness.
Thanks. If you click through to the JF letter, the "Resources" they cite at the bottom are all to Likud organ sites that promote the notion of intrinsic Muslim violence. In this case Muslim violence against Palestinian Christians.
link to jewishfederations.org
Specifically, the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, Dore Gold - President.
link to jcpa.org
It's pretty sad that, as Rosenberg says, "the official charity arm of the entire Jewish community" would go full-frontal Likud on this.
Noticed that too. Agree.
Yup. 15+ million viewers, broadcast. More online.
Simon said they had been working on it for a year. I'm not sure that's the same as sitting on it. But it's interesting to note that content WAS leaked to Oren. Oren confirmed this when he corrected himself as he started to say "I assumed" and changed to "I received information."
Spit-take! Literally.
Yes, carrying your own flag on your own land. How provocative. But never mind, of course, the root provocation of Israeli soldiers on land they have no right to be on.
"Provocation by ... cyclists??" Not serious. Typical. Weird, actually.
Sarcasm sez: He truly did break his fingers in multiple attacks with riders as he claimed. (Cloaked/background reality, or as Paul Harvey used to say "page TWO": He was the attacker and broke his fingers breaking their noses.)
On a more serious note, simple criticism of Israel IS, in fact, "too easy." I'm cautiously with Finklestein on this, though I disagree with (as I interpret it) his contention that "we" are at some pivot point for taking the initiative that his "too easy" characterization implies. "Too easy" belies the overwhelming forces arrayed against any shift in the narrative.
Still, at some point this level of exposure can/should (I know "should" is so very arrogant on my part, because so many good people are trying, including this site) be translated into some prospective, deterministic strategy(s). Getting out in front of the discussion. Not just reaction as in Beinart's late-coming. More, pointed, "if you (supporters of Israel) don't want this to happen (e.g. that Eisner was in line to be in charge of training the IDF officer corps. which will perpetuate and expand this behaviour) , which it will do/is doing, DO this... (i.e. something different/more strident)," or live with a one-state outcome and whatever that entails for a “Jewish State.”
Maybe to say it another way is that at this point Eisner's actions are endemic to Israel. The counter has to be something of equal breadth and depth. Not something "targeted" like decrying seemingly discrete incidents of this type.
Maybe I'm just restating a universal and obvious sentiment, and if so, forgive me, but there is a translation/transition period coming in the near future on this, and "we" should be prepared to exploit it.
Luv ya man.
Probably much truth in that.
@Terryscott Beg to differ. About 15 years ago an acquaintance called NPR "National Jewish Radio." Totally outside the context of the I/P issue. Totally unsuspected from this person. Totally not meant in true anti-semitic fashion, rather just as an observation of predominant input, outlook, and priority.
To be clear that is not at all bad, in fact it is and can be a major positive to view the world through the eyes of the "other." And she didn't mean it as a derogatory, only that it is different in origin and projection from how the rest of us perceive the world around us.
Knowing now what I didn't know then (to paraphrase Bob Seger), throw in the I/P conflict and the fact that it is actually a fight that MW is engaged in (a sizable difference of opinion within the Jewish community on I/P), NPR does in fact express views that occlude the Palestinian point of view from their reporting and interviews.
As I write this, I educate myself...
This tactic always slays me: "Simply put, the bitter debate over divestment would drown out the really needed conversation about how to end the conflict."
IOW, because we protest so loudly about side issues, we will never have a conversation about the central issue. Hmmm... An accurate description and an accurate (self-fulfilling) prediction.
Are the people that spout this malarkey so totally non self-aware?
Powerful indeed.
Does anyone know why ratings and comments were disabled on YouTube? Apparently too powerful for that venue.
Great interview (again). The "two things" paragraph is an important observation among many important observations:
1) Israel could have a negotiated peace if it wanted one. The 2008 truce held. Israel doesn't want one, or if they do they use it to plan for the next killing spree. If any newbies to this issue come to know only one facet of this conflict it is this. Israel operates in bad faith, as a rule, without exception. Everything is filtered by this one simple fact.
2) What Gilbert said about operating just under the threshold of formal international outrage is a major point. Israel has made a science out of collective punishment. Hunger, not starvation. Stunted children, not wholly deformed. Tents, not exposed living. Limited fishing, not zero fishing. Raw sewage into the Med, but not in the streets. Chronic illness, not epidemic cholera (yet). Brackish water, not sea water. Nitrate levels that only affect infants, not the general population. Costly smuggled goods, not full closure. Only a couple of gleaners and shepherds killed a week, not a dozen. Only a 300m buffer zone, not 1km. 30% of the arable land confiscated, not 80%.
There's probably more, and almost certainly a better way to say this.
It's just really hard to comprehend the sheer soullessness of the thought processes that have to be involved in this level of intentional, meticulous, and on-going deprivation. I can't imagine myself sitting down and contemplating "200 dead a year from my policy isn't so bad, but 500 might get noticed [but only if the higher number can't be explained away as something like 'natural causes', which I think is doable!]."
Year after year. Pretty sick "stuff." US tax dollars at work.
In the self-emolation department: Methodists, who actually believe there are constructive interfaith relationships to be had and that Jews DO NOT need to convert or die to fulfill prophesy, get threatened, while the Christian denominations that DO believe that Jews need to convert or die to fulfill prophesy are embraced enthusiastically (though imo, insincerely).
Kinda like rifle-butting a Dane (not that that ever happens...).
All for Israel, or some vanishingly narrow vision thereof.
Great comment. I'd like to see a lot of these questions turned into the "preemptive counterstrike." Publicly, with a written expectation of an equally public response before the vote.
I mean these rabbis just publicly issued a thinly-veiled threat to the Methodist Church (though its hard to tell if it's a threat that warrants any attention, but Methodists being Methodist, they probably will give it its due) as their opening in an attempt at interfaith dialog.
Israel is playing a dangerous game by prompting its supporters to engage this kind of high-handedness, if not out and out brinksmanship.
And hasbarists repeat incredibly, but apparently with a straight face, that the "different standards of living" is somehow an innocuous and/or natural condition.
Disgusting. The practice and the propaganda. All of it. It won't succeed.
Thanks, lysias.
With the publicity that Greenwald has given the MEK (soon to be???) scandal of major US players accepting money from a listed terrorist group to argue for their "de-listing", there has to be a selective enforcement hiatus from the aggressive "material support" interpretations of HvHL. This may be OK for a bit.
Or there may be a proactive defense against prosecution. Maybe.
Thanks Sumud. "Liked." ;)
As the collapse of the Israeli narrative continues, she'll probably be offered the lefty (Colmes) seat on many US talk shows.
Yup. Can the vast majority of Israelis be driven to separate themselves from the rest of the world, or are they already there? I think, already there.
BDS is about power to counter what already is, as opposed to affecting [already intransigent] beliefs.
Great one. Pity that, on so many levels in Israel, this is aggressively avoided introspection.
Dickerson posted links to the film "Defamation" a week or so back. I had never seen it, but if it is in the least representative of the "acculturation" Israeli kids get, and have gotten for decades, it's not remotely surprising this revolting sentiment is accepted as normal and decent in Israel.
@Citizen It all really does contrast, throw into very high relief actually, the whole chimeric yet repetitious "Western 'democracy' " claim. Yet again.
My niece just did a semester in Denmark, with great effect and affect. Given her new experiences and the similarities you mention, she would be appalled by what goes on in Israel, and the claim that it in any way resembles a Danish-style enlightened democracy. (Note to self: New discussion indicated...)
Sort of OT, but your "enjoying" observation made me think it might be relevant here.
When you or others see a video like this or the parent "pistol-whipping" vid on youtube or elsewhere, do you "like" it or "dislike" it?
I never know if by "liking" vids that show violence against Palestinians, protestors, or Palestinian farm animals I am endorsing that behaviour or "liking" the fact that it is made available for all the world to see.
Any thoughts?
Sounds quite a bit like a silent auction.
Israel takes about 200MCM of water from the WB aquifers (more if you include the Jordan valley resources). Palestinians use about 200MCM per year, of which about 160MCM is from WB ground and surface water, and the balance (40MCM) is from the 200MCM of WB ground water, extracted for Israel, sent back via Mekerot. The water stolen from the WB is done at gunpoint. The water returned is sold back to the Palestinians at 2x or 3x the price Israelis pay.
The Palestinians in this way (and so many others) are being forcibly coerced into paying for their own subjugation. I would call that (and the rest of the resource theft, random checkpoints, solar panel and house demolitions, total forced reliance on Israeli banking system, olive tree destruction, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.) a mild hinderance to Palestinian economic development. "Different standards of living," what a sick frickin joke.
The fact that you have to so blatantly lie about easily verifiable geology, or are so completely devoid of any sense of what is actually going on, yet feel so compelled to lay out a simply and purely delusional version is why, as seafoid says so often, this whole settlement/apartheid/hafrada/colonial fantasy that has become (and maybe always was) Israel as you know it is going to come to a crashing end.
Someone once said (Lincoln?): You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. The world doesn't operate on pure fantasy for very long stretches.
Nice try.
@Talkback Hafrada is the Hebrew name. History should record it that way. Complete separation is the objective (note 10m-high walls so Israelis don't have to see what's happening on the other side). Far worse than SA Apartheid.
Wow. Netanyahu's initial (more to come) beef is that they have "five" (count 'em) weeks to continue enriching. As Nima Shirazi has pointed out here several times, the "two years hence" argument has been advanced for decades. Now it's reduced to five weeks. Who, in their right mind, believes this anymore? Heh, don't answer that...
Thanks, Annie. Very hopeful.
X-Ray '0 Vision...