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Total number of comments: 7300 (since 2009-12-17 04:46:00)

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  • Jodi Rudoren loves a winner
  • Mr. Netanyahu, what is your endgame?
    • That's what the poor are for. Why else would they keep us around, making the place look untidy?

    • "If he is alive, the assassination of his wife and baby son may not have made him gentler and more peaceable."

    • " In other words they have no plan other than violence, will the world put up with this?"

      Has done up to now.

  • 'NYT' op-ed calls on Jews to abandon liberal Zionism and push for equal rights
  • In Photos: Thousands pack Rafah streets for funeral of top Hamas commanders
    • "Are you attacking Israel for bombing Gaza in an attempt to find everlasting peace?"

      My powers of sarcasm are, once again, inadequate.

  • Democratic Party leader echoes Netanyahu's new theme: Hamas equals ISIS
    • That seems to be a recurring problem with these guys. The US and Israel set up groups like Al Qaeda, Hamas, and so forth, to split up opposition and/or do their dirty work, but then those groups start getting their own ideas.

    • Thanks, Walid. Your posts on these matters are far more informative than the MSM.

    • "Before Hamas=ISIS appeared out nowhere, Israel was quite accomodating to Palestinian rights and national aspirations."

      Yes, we noticed that Israel gave the Palestinians full, equal, rights.

      What do you mean by "national aspirations"?

  • Entitled ideology supporting 'incineration' of Gaza resonates with Nazi ideology -- Siegman
    • " but Jew vs gentile everywhere. "

      This point is not sufficiently recognized. When the Zionist says "We matter and you don't", the "you" does not refer solely to Palestinians.

    • Just to clarify things here.
      There are several claims involved with this story. They include the idea that the systems of the Fukushima reactors were disabled by the Stuxnet virus (created by Israel to attack Iran), that explosives and nukes were used to destroy part of the Fukushima plant, and that the tsunami was not a natural event.

      link to jimstonefreelance.com

      I'm inclined to suspect that the Stuxnet virus played a part, but I find the idea of nukes in the Fukushima plant a bit hard to swallow.

  • My personal BDS
    • "There was no doubt a lot of forced eviction, aggressive and brutal expulsion, which I agree is unforgivable”

      And it hasn't stopped.

  • Ari Shavit calls out every brutality, except the ones Israel is complicit in
    • " the ethnic cleansing, massacres, and terrorism were justified because it resulted in a Jewish majority state on someone else’s land "

      A claim which stems from the idea that Jews are more important than other people.

  • 'Lesson: The Jews will defend themselves even if it means killing children'
  • 'I mourn my Jewish community, which seeks to justify these inexcusable acts'
  • Ceasefire comes to a close -- Mohammed Assaf's 'Raise Your Head High'
    • "Anyone with friendly, or even objective, attitudes to Palestinians would say, for a start, that they have rights equal to anyone’s and deserve to be fully enfranchised citizens of a fully sovereign state with frontiers determined by a normal procedure."

      That does not imply a right to a Palestinian state, but certainly a state in Palestine. I prefer the one state solution on the grounds that the two state solution rewards the injustice of the Zionists, but I also think the two state solution, with full sovereignty for the Palestinian state, would be better than the current position. (Especially so if it is a step towards a single state.)

      Of course, I, being the butterfly upon the road, have the luxury of sitting back and pontificating about concepts of justice in a matter in which I have no real stake. The Palestinians are not so fortunate, so their decisions may well be more pragmatic.

  • More Orientalist insinuations in the New York Times
    • But in all the harbours I have seen (and that's quite a few) the gulls keep going back to the buoys.

    • It is absurd to think that after the Romans slapped down the Jewish rebellions, all the Jews then left Palestine.

      It is absurd to think that the country was empty when the Muslims arrived.

      It is absurd to believe that none of the people who were there when the Muslims arrived were descendants of the Jews.

      It is wrong to think that language is a sure indicator of ethnic origin. In many places around the world there are black, brown, red, and yellow people who speak English as their first, and often only, language. Very few of them are direct descendants of Lincolnshire farmers.

  • HAMAS made me do it!
  • Lobbyist tells Eliot Engel he has 'the blood of hundreds of Palestinian children on his hands'
    • "We simply fear that because of the assimilation we will become extinct. "

      And why will it matter if they do?

  • Witnessing Gaza
    • From my point of view, as regulars here well know, accepting membership in ordinary humanity is a duty.

      If the Jewish ethical traditions have, indeed, come to an end, this will help with the process of fulfilling that duty, for then all Jews will have to be participants in the general moral community.

    • "I keep saying a bit boringly that meanings are not real things and that we can all use words as we like provided we make ourselves clear and speak consistently."

      Though if we want to be understood, we should use words in the way other people use them, and if we want to be really clear as well as understood, we should use them the way I say they should be used.

  • UPDATED: Bay Area demonstrators succeed for **fourth** day in 'Blocking the Boat for Gaza'
    • "the UN-recognized right of Jews to self-determination"

      I don't recall the UN saying that Jews - qua Jews - had a right to self determination. Neither the partition suggestion nor the recognition of Israel imply recognition of such a right. They were only pragmatic accommodations.

  • Israel correctly fears its 'delegitimizers,' says leftwing member of Irish parliament
    • Intermarriage is a matter of people freely choosing to marry the person they love. It is a matter people freely trying to make their lives happy, full, and flourishing. It is a matter of accepting our common humanity.

      And these people declare it worse than mass killing motivated by hate and denial of common humanity.

      Only a really sick and twisted mind could say that.

  • Gov. Cuomo annexes Jerusalem to Israel -- and 'NYT' echoes him
    • It is dangerous to underestimate the stupidity of politicians.

      You are right, of course, in treating what he says as being totally divorced from what, if anything, he believes about the issues. With very, very, few exceptions, politicians' words derive from the belief that those words will help them to get elected.

  • Video: Gaza forces young Jew to overcome 'giant hostile ferocious backlash' of her community
    • In Galileo's time (and for many hundreds of years previously) educated people believed the world was spherical. Galileo was was prosecuted for teaching heliocentrism.

      The torture issue is less certain. There were three degrees of torture. First, verbal threat. Second, being shown the instruments. Third, the actual use of the instruments on the body. (With commendable American efficiency, US authorities usually skip the first two degrees.)

      The evidence we have suggests that Galileo was never subjected to the third degree.

  • Man who saved Jewish boy in Holocaust acts to save Israel from 'racist... quagmire'
    • OT, but I find the title "Righteous among the Nations" a bit insulting. Of course, it does not, in strict logic, imply that people who do not get that award are not righteous, but the very title itself does suggest that righteousness is a rare quality in "the Nations".

  • Checking under Israel's Iron Dome
    • "grants for Jewish heritage preservation overseas (US Heritage Agency)"

      !!!!

      This makes no sense at all! What is a "heritage" (Jewish or otherwise) and why should the US government be paying to "preserve" (whatever that means) a non-US one?

    • Scott Adams once suggested that it is possible that the engineers who built the US nuclear deterrent missiles just took the cash and filled the missiles with old radio parts. No-one would know until a nuclear war started, and then the Government would have other things to think about than suing engineers.

  • Question for the American Jewish Establishment: Where does Zionism end and Judaism begin?
    • "the will’s ability to triumph."

      Didn't someone make a film about that?

    • They had to get help from Joseph Swan.

    • And again I urge you to take up the task yourself. (If not Yoo hoo, yahoo, etc.)

      You can get ordained online.

      (link to northernway.org

      if you don't want to bother with any training.)

    • "The American Jewish community in 1967 was faced with a serious assimilation problem. Jews became white people in the 1950s. The ethnic neighborhoods across the United States that had existed in WWI were collapsing. Jews no longer went to Jewish schools (whether in practice or public schools so Jewish), they no longer grew up in all Jewish neighborhoods. Judaism had effectively become just another denomination.... Every 100 years or so half the cultures on the planet die. Do you want Judaism to be one of them that doesn't make it this century or not?"

      So you want to keep Jews as a separate "culture" locked into Jewish ghettos. And that is so important to you that it overrides concern for human life, human freedom, human well-being. You have made a "culture" your idol, and will sacrifice both Jews and Gentiles before it.

  • How to respond to thoughtful people who can't help saying 'but Hamas'
    • The UN partition plan was a suggestion, but since it was opposed by a substantial part of the population, it never gained legitimacy.

    • The war of 1948 was the result of the Zionists' plot to create a Jewish State. The plan was evil in conception, so it is hardly surprising that it lead to evil in execution. The responsibility for that evil lies with the Zionists.

      And no matter how badly the other Arabs have treated the Palestinians, that does not in any way reduce Israel's responsibilities.

  • Liberal Zionism has lost its refuge-- a plausible two-state solution
    • Russia is already showing Australia and the EU that sanctions can work in other directions than those the US wants. The new Russian ban on importing agricultural products from those countries has already hit the producers, and China, Turkey, and South American countries are all stepping into the gap to supply Russia.

      And in a grand "nose to spite the face move", the Ukrainians are talking of blocking Russian gas exports through Ukraine. They will lose their own gas supply, and their new BFF, the EU, will love them even more when the North Wind doth blow.

    • That's what I fear. It's bad enough having South Africans here, but they don't whine and at least their children seem prepared to accept mainstream Australian values.

      I can't imagine Israelis being anything but a pain in the neck for a couple of generations at least.

      (There are still tensions and clashes between Serbian and Croatian immigrants. )

  • Hope in the one state solution 
    • I like "The Most Serene And Popular Republic Of South Levant".

    • "It leads many to wonder what exactly is Israel’s long-term strategy, "

      I think it has two aspects - the Zionist vision, and the Micawber method. The vision is Greater Israel with only a few Arabs to do the menial work. The method is simply to take advantage of whatever turns up.

  • Israel got tank shell that killed 20 at UN school from US without Obama's approval -- WSJ bombshell
    • And yet Boykin needed the help of the Muslims in the Pakistani and Malaysian armies.

    • Meh.

      In '73 the US stripped material from NATO bases in order to resupply Israel. This was a breach of the NATO treaty, and made Western Europe a bit more vulnerable to the Soviets.

      But Israel was more important.

      (Of course, NATO knew as well as the Soviets that neither intended to attack the other, but the public wasn't supposed to realise that.)

  • Reading Salaita in Illinois—by Way of Cary Nelson (part 1)
    • And Phil's Law strikes again.

      The spell check on iPad didn't catch that extra i, and I failed to edit.

      But the otiose "for" still seems wrong.

    • Also, the "for" is otioise. It should be "he intended there to be no Israelis in the West Bank". "Intend" follows the same pattern as "like" and"want".

      "I want you to get it right."
      "I would like you to get it right."
      "I hope you intend to get it right."

      I bet Abbas gets it right.

  • The Walzer Problem
    • Just war theory requires, first, a just cause. What counts as a just cause is the hard part. My own inclination is to go with David Luban, and say that a war in defence of human rights is a just war. (Though I can see some difficulties with this idea.)

      This means that a state which grossly violates human rights has no right of defence if the aim of the attacker is to improve the hr situation in that state.

      (So, of course, before we attack a state we will loudly claim that it violates the rights of its citizens and that we are going to correct that situation.)

      Mind you, under classical theory a state may have no right of defence if it is obvious that the defence would fail or the cost of the defence would be greater than the cost of being conquered. The cost to the attacker as well as the cost to the defender has to be taken into account. But we could also argue that the value of the defence includes the deterrence effect, in that it would discourage the attacker from attacking other states, and thus save more misery in the longer run.

    • Just War theory does seem to be something we philosophers play around with in our scruffy offices but which has no connection to the brutal business of actual wars.

      However, it has had influence on the real world. Mostly, this has been in the Jus in bello aspect. The rules of war which officers are supposed to follow, and the concept of war crimes, are derived from classical Just War theory.

      Walter, of course, twists the facts in order to pretend that Israel's wars are just.

  • Have I failed to acknowledge Palestinian violence?
  • US branch of the Jewish 'family' owes the homeland 'unconditional love' -- Rosner
    • And you should set up a non-Zionist denomination.

      If not you, who?

      If not now, when?

    • "What do you think the British empire was but an organization to promote the Anglo-Christian agenda?"

      In the earlier phases, it was more a disorganisation. There was no plan to build and Empire. The various bits of territory were acquired in a variety of different ways. Frequently the man on the spot simply took over and sent a message back to London. (Peccavi!) The trading posts of private companies turned into colonies, sometimes to the annoyance of the British Government.

      Nor was there a single motive. Some of the prominent motives were:

      1. Private profit. Sugar plantations in the West Indies, the Hudson Bay company, the East India company, and so forth were all organized to make rich people richer.

      2. Dish the Frogs. (Always a worthy enterprise.) Confounding French machinations played a major role in gaining India and Canada. I recall reading that when a French diplomat asked a British official how much of Australia Britain claimed, the official (who had only the vaguest idea what or where Australia was) replied instantly "the whole".

      3. Set up bases and coaling stations for the Royal Navy.

      4. The sheer adventure of it.

      Yes, in the later stages there was a lot of humbug talked about Christianity, and some prominent figures were enthusiastic Christians, but it was never really part of the official agenda.

      Queen Victoria ruled over more Muslims than the Caliph, as well as nearly all the Hindus, Jains, and Sikhs, a goodly number of Buddhists, Taoists, and sundry others. The official (if unspoken) position was that they were all less annoying than Welsh Methodists or Scottish Presbyterians, so let them get on with it. Except for the Thugs.

      The British did promote the English language, the ideas of education for women, Rule of Law, and (oddly, for a despotic empire with a strong racist streak) personal freedom. After profiting from the slave trade in the eighteenth century, Britain became a strong force against slavery in the nineteenth.

      But the Empire was not set up to promote these ideas.

    • NORAID, etc., collected lots of money from Irish people hiding in the US and from Americans who pretended they were Irish because an ancestor came from Ireland, but that wasn't US government money.

      How many high-ups in the US government have dual US/Irish citizenship?

    • "the UK should be governed by a government elected by the people of the UK to act for the benefit of the people of the UK. "

      I believe Clem Attlee tried that. It didn't last, though.

    • Perhaps they think that the support of American Jews will be enough to ensure the support of the U.S. The lesser beings will follow their masters' lead.

    • " the deutschmark; "

      Pssst. The Euro.

  • Is the firing of Steven Salaita the beginning of a new Blacklist?
  • Three dissident Jewish orgs to hold silent vigil during 50 Jewish orgs' memorial to Israeli dead
    • ".Where Jewish Laws were created and handed down to the Jews by Prophet Moses via God, "

      I think you mean "by God via Moses"

      Actually, although it purports to be based on the principles laid down by the prophets, most Christian, Jewish, and Islamic law was cooked up by men. Much of it, it seems, by miserable old men who hated everyone, and especially women. I think they never had a girlfriend, never had any fun, and didn't want anyone else to have any either.

  • Boycott Israel?
    • What does the US gain from supporting Israel? To me it seems that support is detrimental to US interests.

  • Hollywood's latest blacklist shadows Bardem, Cruz, Almodovar
  • 'One nation, one state, one leader' -- frightening slogan at Tel Aviv protest
    • " mixed marriages among the sheep, "

      There's talk of doing the right thing and marrying sheep?

      The Welsh and the New Zealanders should feel ashamed.

    • In the 19th Century, the results of the Enlightenment, the scientific revolution, and the industrial revolution, had so changed the world that it seemed obvious to Europeans that there were different levels of civilisation, and that these were associated with the various races. The British were the highest level, followed so closely by other Northern Europeans that some of them impudently thought they were equally high, then down through Southern Europeans, Chinese and Japanese, Indians, and so on until they arrived at the most primitive blacks and Irish.

      Interestingly, it was at this time that European archaeologists greatly extended knowledge of ancient civilisations that ran counter to the race-based ideas.

    • The basic "out of Africa*" theory is now being challenged by the multi-regional continuity theory, which suggests multiple but not entirely separate
      "creations".

      link to actionbioscience.org

      (*Thank you, Pliny the Elder and Karen Blixen.)

    • But don't forget that Zionism is pluralistic, democratic, artistic and creative. So it should be no surprise that Zionists artfully create a plurality of different stories, and peddle whichever ones the majority of Zionists approve of at the moment.

  • Six arrested in civil disobedience at Federation offices in Philly
  • 'An extreme rightwing regime behaving in the most criminal fashion and defying the world and unscrupulously using the Holocaust to justify what they're doing'
    • I came across this, which purports to be a list of dual nationals (Israel-US) in US politics.

      link to budgetcamerareview.com

      If it is accurate, then there can be no doubt that the US government is occupied by Israel.

      Australia is very tolerant of people having multiple citizenships. (I have two, my son has four.) But Federal MPs can only have one. (Australian, of course.) I don't know about government officials.

      The US, on the other hand, is not happy about US citizens having other citizenships as well (my son notwithstanding) and yet apparently tolerates all these dual citizens in high positions!

  • A Palestinian defends violent resistance to occupation
    • The Palestinians wanted a single democratic state from the start. The Zionists didn't. They wanted a Jewish state. After a lot of wars and ethnic cleansing, the Palestinians said "OK, keep 78% of our land and let us build a state in the remaining 22%." But the Zionists block that as well.

      The Palestinians want peace. The Zionists want the land without Palestinians.

    • Well done, Hostage, tree, Keith, talknic. But I'm sure Ian will just shrug it all off, and carry on. It's the Zionist way.

  • American woman abandons Zionist group after hearing Palestinian describe slaughter of six family members
    • Mooser, the content of your posts belies your self-deprecation.

      But if you don't feel holy enough, grow a beard and get some strange headgear. Look at this lot.

      Ayatollahs and most other Muslim "clergy".
      Sikh men.
      Eastern Orthodox clergy.
      Amish men.
      The Archbishop of Canterbury.
      Rastafarian men.

      If it works for them, it'll work for you.

      Go and open up that non-Zionist synagogue.

    • "Does it mean you are retroactively against the idea of a national liberation movement for the Jews of Europe in the late 19th century?"

      Yes.

      Jews are not a nation, even in the 19th century sense.
      "National liberation" does not always lead to either more rights or improvement in the well-being of the people liberated, so we cannot declare it as always being a Good Thing.

      "Does it mean you are against Hebrew culture."

      Assuming there is such a thing, does it need Zionism to exist? If it does, is it so valuable that it justifies the evil of Zionism?

      "Does being anti-Zionist mean that you oppose the existence of Israeli folk dancing"

      That would be Mooser. I don't mind as long as they don't sing.

      Zionism "is very hard to define because Zionism is an idea–and really, a whole slue of ideas which are understood and interpreted differently by virtually everyone who uses the word."

      Not difficult at all. The core concept is that of creating and maintaining a Jewish state in Palestine. Two interpretations which seem to cover it perfectly.

      MHughes:

      My definition of Zionism ... is 'the belief that Jewish people, and they only, have an inherent right (now commonly called birthright) to a share of sovereignty in the Holy Land; others having that right only by the grace and generosity of the true heirs' - this has been the position since 1948.

      And

      The idea of Zionism before the 1905 Congress was that Jewish people deserved land under their special and permanent sovereignty either somewhere to be determined or (better) in the Holy Land. This was, whichever alternative is considered, manifestly contrary to human right, since it excluded at least some people, living somewhere, from sovereignty over the place where they lived. After 1905 only the second alternative remained on the table, directing exclusion and injustice at the non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine. There never was a form of Zionism which was or could have been compatible with any idea of human rights for all, and therefore capable of putting into effect without massive suffering and cruelty.

      Saleema:

      We matter and you don't.

      "The other problem is that it is not clear that whatever this hard to define thing is, is inherently harmful"

      To anyone with any moral sense, it is clear that Zionism is evil in conception and has wrought great evil in the world.

      " much of what Zionism has brought into fruition (including all of the Hebrew culture things I mentioned above) are self-evidently not harmful."

      Folk dances are not sufficient mitigation for ethnic cleansing, war, genocide, oppression, etc.

      "Even more to the point, Zionism is controversial."

      Some people make excuses for evil, some don't. So what? It does not make the evil any less evil.

      "At the end of the day, being a Zionist doesn’t make one committed to harming Palestinians."

      Yes, it does. By its very nature it denies the rights of the Palestinians.

      "It’s not Zionism that is the root or proximate cause of the occupation, the siege, or operations like Protective Edge and Cast Lead."

      Yes, it is. Zionism led to the creation of Israel and the dispossession of the Palestiniians. That is the root of the issue.

      "Not coincidentally, anti-Zionism, by definition, cannot be a part of any such compromise because it is uncompromising. Yet, how can this situation be resolved if not through compromise?"

      By the Jews of Israel rejecting Zionism and committing themselves to justice and morality.

  • On being accused of anti-semitism by well meaning liberals
    • "Does anyone know why it’s so important to Zionists that Palestine wasn’t a state in 1920? "

      I've asked the Hasbareers who post here, but got no answer.

      I suspect is because they think in terms of "peoples" rather than people. It's "peoples" who have rights to land. If there had been a Palestinian state, it would imply a Palestinian "people" with a group right to the land.

      But this guess may just be a reflection of my own distaste for the ideas of "peoples" and group rights.

  • My friends say I'm being too nice to Hamas
    • Though, before the sentence was passed, in his defence speech (again according to Plato) he says that it is his duty to go around annoying people with his questions.

      (In Xenophon's version he argues that his conduct has been virtuous, but that death by execution would be preferable to withering old age. His reply to Apollodorus is classic.)

    • According to Plato, Socrates refused a chance to escape and laid down his life because he thought it wrong to disobey the laws of the state which had supported him during his life.

  • 'NYT' is furiously rewriting history of Gaza conflict
    • I think Twitter is absolutely marvellous. Never before have so many people of such little importance been able to reveal their total idiocy to so many.

  • Gaza war gives rise to new Jewish group targeting Jewish institutions that support occupation
    • "What really matters is when other people identify you as a Jew. That’s when it starts to matter."

      So you can call yourself a Jew as much as you like, but you are only a really Jew if other people think so? Then if we all said "There're no such things as Jews", there wouldn't be any, regardless of how many people thought they themselves were Jews.

      Simple, painless, yet solves the problem at a stroke. If there are no Jews, there is no basis for a Jewish state.

      Come on, all together. One, two, three ...

    • Mooser, to my inexpert eye, you seem to be a genuinely religious Jew. Hell, I'll even say a more a man of God (not that I believe in God) than many of those beardy types with the funny hats.

      So you do it.

  • Conflict Resolution 101: Talk to Hamas
    • Nice to see someone's got clear plans of what to do. Not quite sure I would approve of them, though.

  • Bob Schieffer in a 'world gone mad'
  • What I said to the couple holding a banner with a swastika on it
    • "Nazism has won because it has finally managed to Nazify the consciousness of its own victims.”

      Some of the victims, anyway. Millions of others in Europe and North Africa managed to avoid being Nazified.

    • Japanese cartographers use the Hindu swastika to indicate a Buddhist temple. You sometimes see one one the maps of the district they set up next to the railway stations.*. Some People Of A Certain Sort complained about this being anti-something. Likewise about it appearing on a Pokemon card. The cartographers ignored them. Nintendo took it off the international version of the card.

      (*Very necessary. If you ever had any doubts about the fundamental craziness of the Japanese, learn the address system. The best way to find a place is to order a pizza for that address and then follow the delivery guy.)

    • "Oh, this is useless! Look Hophmi, how much, and what things are you owed for anti-Semitism? Maybe we could settle all this right now, "

      No, Mooser, you can't. Hophmi does not lead a rich, full, life in the way we do. He has no interest in jazz organ. He doesn't really care about commas. If he didn't whine about anti-Semitism and Jewish self-determination, his life would be totally empty. He won't give it up.

  • The selected writings of Samantha Power
    • Of course you know now, after Paul Hogan made a couple of educational films to bring you up to speed, but I was talking about Flynn's time.

    • Yes. And Errol Flynn was originally an Australian, not Irish. He later became an American. However, in Hollywood he referred to himself as Irish. Probably he did this because the Americans had weird romantic ideas about Ireland, and no ideas at all about Australia.

  • Rightwing Jews who want to destroy Muslim holy site in Jerusalem raise funds on Indiegogo
  • British gov't minister resigns over 'morally indefensible' Gaza policy, urging Palestinians to go to international criminal court
    • The Times (6 August). Digital edition.

      link to thetimes.co.uk

      My paper edition has it as the front page lead and full page 4 story. Too much emphasis on the Muslim vote (as though Muslims were the only ones concerned) but still a lot of coverage. On the front page a note that a British schoolgirl has been wounded in Gaza, which turns out to be part of a story from a correspondent who gives a horribly detailed description of the casualties.

      Even the Murdoch rags are finding it a bit much.

    • I'm in Britain at the moment. (Just arrived today.) Baroness Warsi is getting plenty of airtime. In a Channel 4 interview she just said that there is a lot of unease among Conservative backbenchers. She said that one very senior MP was almost in tears. (Soames, perhaps?). They want to see the Government take more positive action. We have already seen this unease (in the Labour Party as well) on the bit of video that was posted a day or two ago.

      When Israel arouses glimmers of conscience in the House of Commons, it has clearly gone far beyond human decency.

    • Even the ghastly Julie Bishop, who defended Israel when it misused Australian passports, has shifted a toe a teeny bit from the Israeli line.

      link to abc.net.au

      Though George Brandis is concentrating on the really important issue.

      link to abc.net.au

      Britain's Daily Mail has an interesting take.

      link to dailymail.co.uk

  • Elie Wiesel plays the Holocaust trump card in Gaza
    • "The mainstream Jewish organizations in ALL the Western countries are pro-Israel."

      If so, this shows the mainstream Jewish organisations are morally corrupt.

      (It seems I am now channelling Moshe Menhuin. Or Mooser.)

    • " people like you believe that the Holocaust is ancient history and not relevant to the contemporary Jewish condition"

      So the Holocaust, which ended in 1945, is still relevant. But we keep getting told that the Nakba, which started in 1947 and hasn't ended, is ancient history, and that the Palestinians should just get over it and move on.

  • Seven congresspeople go to Israel on AIPAC's dime-- and one gets defensive about it
    • "At the end of the day, Israel will remain the expression of Jewish self-determination"

      Still no shred of an argument for Jewish self determination. Don't you ever get tired of repeating empty phrases?

  • The British public and the world see that Israel's actions are 'wrong and unjustified' -- Miliband
    • And the Labour Party used to be more pro-Israel than the Tories. If it isn't now, ask why.

    • Ed Miliband is a British citizen. He was elected to the British Parliament by British people, and when he took his seat he swore an oath of allegiance to the reigning monarch of Britain. He was chosen as leader of a British political party by the members of that party.

      By citizenship, obligation to his supporters, and oath, his primary loyalty is to the Queen, country, and people of Britain. He is morally obliged to act for their benefit, and denouncing evil is clearly in their benefit.

      Also, as a human being, he is morally obliged to denounce evil when he sees it.

      Yet you think he should be silent out of loyalty to the "Jewish people". What is the source of this putative loyalty? Why would denouncing evil not be to their benefit as well?

    • Let's not underate it either. I'm sure Miliband has seen the demos clogging the major cities and thought "votes", but that is what the demos are for. Miliband is Leader of the Opposition, calculating his chances of becoming PM, and clearly thinks that this statement will do him more good than harm. That shows a crack in the wall.
      He hasn't nailed his trousers to the mast with it, so if he does become PM and the Zionists crack the whip he'll probably still say "Three bags full, sir", but it will get harder every time.

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