Commenter Profile

Total number of comments: 8736 (since 2009-12-17 04:46:00)

Showing comments 8736 - 8701

  • 'We are you and you are us' -- Netanyahu has tons of American friends
  • Activists call on Oprah Winfrey to distance herself from Leviev over human rights abuses
  • Palestinian is shot at Qalandiya checkpoint a day after Israeli soldier is stabbed at Bethlehem checkpoint
    • No surprise to me. Over the years I've known a lot of Muslims from a lot of countries, and have come to a really depressing conclusion about them.

      They are just people.

      Some are intelligent, many are idiots. Many are reasonably decent, some are absolute scum. Sometimes they do nice things, sometimes they are arseholes . Like the rest of us.

  • Flotilla members still imprisoned as video emerges of violent Israeli attack during capture
  • United Church of Christ votes to boycott & divest from companies profiting from Israel's occupation
    • Michelle, I was being sarcastic. Just about anything that does not suit the Zionists is labelled "anti-Semitic". Zionists are not interested in truth.

    • Mysterioso, don't go dragging facts into this. It's anti-Semitic.

    • I don't think the Australian Antactic Territories are for sale. But maybe if someone makes a good offer...

  • In effort to thwart BDS, some Israel supporters urge partial settlement freeze
    • " If Israel were to adhere to the law it would hold at least a modicum of high moral ground. -"

      Not that, but at least closer to the top of the moral pit it is in.

  • My journey from Zionism to Palestine solidarity
    • "Our focus should be on reconciliation"

      A first step to reconciliation is admission of guilt. Can Israelis admit that the basic ideas of Zionism ("Jews have a right to take over Palestine", "We matter and you don't", etc.) were wrong, and that they wronged the Palestinians?

      Or are they just going to witter about "narratives"?

      link to

  • Israeli forces shoot 14-year-old Palestinian with live ammo during West Bank march
  • Oren's criticism of US Jews earns his book five thumbs down: 'slinky,' 'self-aggrandizing,' 'twists reality'
    • I didn't know there was any sort of forest in Brooklyn.

    • "One historian quipped that “Gentile” is the only time in history that an overwhelming majority accepted the name given to it by a very small minority."

      But only when it is needed to contrast with Jews. We don't go round thinking "I'm a Gentile" or worrying about our Gentile identity.

  • 'A traumatized society is dangerous'
    • I said "the saner parts of the world", plus others. I didn't say "everywhere".

    • "There is no such thing as Israeli nationality"

      In the saner parts of the world, as well as in the US and even more dubious countries, "nationality" means "citizenship of a sovereign state". My passports say "Nationality: Australian", and "Nationality: British".

      So as far as we are concerned, an Israeli citizen has Israeli nationality. "Jewish" is not a nationality. Hence eljay's comment.

      In Israel, however ....

    • But the Swedes do tell rude jokes about the Norwegians.

      On the other hand, the Norwegians tell the same sort of jokes about the Swedes, so they probably think it all evens out.

    • "those Jews who feel a need or an inclination for identity"

      You are just trying to wind me up, aren't you, Yonah?

    • 'Because there is no such thing as “American Jewry”. -'

      So you can't be tried before a Jewry of your peers?

    • ” Who built the menhirs and dolmens that dot the landscape of Brittany and Cornwall?”

      Obelix, wasn't it?

    • "Ms. Abarbanel does seem to be saying that Jewish religion, culture and identity are paranoid and cult-like."

      She does.

      Now the two interesting questions are

      (a) Is she right?


      (b) If so, what, if anything, should be done about it?

    • Those were the days, when you could go out on a raid, slaughter the men and boys, and carry off the girls for a harem.

      Try it now and you get the Politically Correct mob nagging at you. Bunch of killjoys.

    • "the genocides of Canaanites and Amalekites and all sort of other ites (and their male animals, too)"

      But sparing at least some of the women.

      Deuteronomy 20:14, Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Numbers 31:17-18

    • Yonah, "You are opposed to Jews and Judaism. You aspire to a day that this cult is broken apart, so that the individuals can join the universalist religions of modernism or Christianity or Islam. You are not against individual Jews only against Jewish identity. "

      You say that like it's a bad thing.

    • "If anyone was to be traumatized, one would think it would be the Russians. "

      There was a fair amount of trauma all round. The Indonesians said that three years of the Japanese was worse than three hundred years of the Dutch. The Chinese were a bit put out by the Japanese invasion, as well. North Africans were probably none too happy about their countries being used as a battlefield (they are still clearing up the land mines) but no one has bothered to ask them. And the list goes on.

      But neither the Russians, nor the Chinese, nor the Indonesians, nor anyone else, spend all their time whining about it. It is important, but not a religion. They do not demand special treatment or extort money from Swiss banks or drag it out as an all-encompassing excuse.

  • 'Jewish cow' is udderly superior to all other cows in the world, Netanyahu says
  • We must break out of the paranoid survival myth
    • And yet, for a reasonably long chunk of human history, the Muslim countries were more developed than the Christian countries. The Christian countries started overtaking the Muslim countries when they became less Christian and more secular.

    • Well, some of the totally uninfluential and unchosen (i.e., me) have suggested a SA-style Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I suspect, though, that, however much you and I would like to see the lampposts decorated with the guilty, the very best we can hope for is a Kevin Rudd style apology and a bit of compensation. But I'm not expecting even that.

      (Who would pay the compensation? Maybe that guy with all the casinos would be happy to shell out a few beans.)

    • That's an important point that bears repeating, Mooser.
      Chain Weizmann was not a poor, oppressed, tailor in the East End when Lloyd George asked him to take charge of acetone production for WW1.
      Herbert Samuel was not an itinerant pedlar who was grabbed off the street and made Commissioner for Palestine.
      The Zionist project was pushed by rich and influential Jews, who could do a lot more than put three ha'pence into a little blue box.

    • "It is not the Zionism started once by idealistic Communists and Atheists as a liberation movement."

      Was there such a thing? If so, it hasn't left much of a mark.

      "Instead Zionism has morphed into a racist, ethnic, nationalist ideology "

      Seems to me that the Zionism that actually delivered Israel was always like that.

  • BDS will keep Israeli tanks from moving and F15 from flying, Oren says
    • Technical note. Hurricanes brought down more German planes than Spitfires did. There were more of them, and they had a faster turn-around time. They were a bit slower than Me109s, so the preferred tactic was to send the Hurricanes against the bombers and the Spitfires against the fighter escort. (Though sometimes it ended up being the other way round.)

      But the main defensive weapon was radar (invented by Robert Watson Watt) integrated into the Dowding System of early detection. This enabled the RAF planes to accurately find and intercept the Luftwaffe planes.

  • Interview with a suicide bomber
    • So you mean a state inhabited by two nations (n-nations or c-nations).

      1. Citing Czechoslovakia as an example does not help a lot. That country was composed of a Czech area and a Slovak area. As I understand it, in Palestine, before the ethnic cleansing, even the areas with the most Jews had a preponderance of Arabs, although there were areas with very few Jews.

      2. So what would be the difference between a "bi-national" state in which there are no distinct national areas and a state in which all citizens have equal rights, etc.?

      "But when I think of the Jewish immigrants,…Not the images of an invading horde."

      Not the usual image, but, as soon as they signed up to Zionism, they were invaders nonetheless

    • "He says clearly : an Arab state."

      And you automatically assume that meant an ethnic supremacy in which non-Arabs were, at best, second class citizens, in the manner of a certain Jewish state?

      Palestine was an Arab state under the Mandate. The majority of the population (including some of the Jews) were Arabs. Husseini was hardly saying anything new in referring to Palestine as an Arab state. And when all resident non-Arab Jews have full equal rights with Arabs, what does it matter whether or not he calls it an "Arab state"?

      "Jamal Husseini was not talking about a bi-national state"

      I don't know what "bi-national state" is supposed to mean, so I don't know why it matters. Jews in Australia have full, equal, rights with all other Australians. I've never heard anyone call Australia a "bi-national state", and nor have I heard anyone complain that it isn't one. But Hebrew isn't an official language in Australia.

      "There’s no mention of Hebrew and Arabic being official languages,"

      I admit that I do not have a primary source for this. I get it from Edward Atiyah's book The Arabs (Penguin Books, 1958). I will quote the relevant passage.

      "...the Arab states accepted an invitation from the British Government to send delegations for yet one more conference in London in the winter of 1946-7. But no result was achieved. The Arab delegates reiterated the now unshakable demand for an independent, democratic state in Palestine, offering equal rights to all citizens, freedom of education to the Jews, and the use of Hebrew as an official language. But they insisted on the immediate stoppage of all immigration and the enforcement of existing regulations against the sale of land to the Jews in certain parts of Palestine." (Pp. 176-177.)

      Now I agree that the last item sounds like a restriction on rights of Jews. I am not sure whether that restriction was intended to hold until the end of the Mandate, or to continue afterwards. Perhaps one of our more erudite posters can help.

      (Yonah will note that the London conference preceded the UNSCOP report.)

      I note that you seem to take exception to me referring to the Zionists as "invaders".

      The Zionist immigrants were not born in Palestine, and did not, before their migration, have Palestian citizenship. That makes them (in any normal use of the word) foreigners.

      They intended to take over the country from the native inhabitants.

      When a bunch of foreigners pour into a country with the intent of taking it over, "invaders" seems to be the right word to use.

    • Your analogies with European countries losing territory are not all that good, either.

      The Israeli invaders did not just lay down a temporary border and change the street names. They drove out three quarters of the native population and put the rest under martial law. They made it clear that they intended to take over the rest of Palestine, and carried out attacks against the neighbouring countries. Once they had got hold of the rest of Palestine, they put the Palestinians in those parts under occupation rule, and started stealing their land while trying to drive tham away as well.

      So it made no difference whether Palestinians were prepared to let it go, to forget the past, to move on. Israel would still come after them, and try to drive them out. The Nakba has not ended.

    • Page: 87
    • The Palestinians have tried compromise. Before Israel was established they offered a perfectly reasonable compromise. To wit: a single democratic state in Palestine, in which the invaders would be full, equal citizens with the natives, and in which Arabic and Hebrew would be the official languages. The main condition they set was an end to Jewish immigration.

      The Zionists rejected that.

      Since then Palestinians have bent over backwards in an attempt to compromise. They offer: Israel keeps 78% of the country, with full recognition and relations with all its neighbours, in return for (a) a fully sovereign and independent state in the remaining 22% (West Bank and Gaza) and (b) some sort of fudge so that they can pretend the Right of Return has been acknowledged.

      The Zionists ignore that one.

      So, while Israel keeps trying to drive them out of Palestine, what compromise should they make now?

  • Controversy ignites as Joint Arab List member joins Gaza flotilla
    • "The way I speak with Israeli journalists is a little different. These things aren’t intended to get out. I can’t reveal the principles I work by. For example, I don’t say who I go to in order to get good stories out here, or who I pay for things like that.”

      An excuse worse than the crime?

  • Irish activists hit hard against 1st Irish dance competition in Israel
    • That's the trouble with having a real Irishman around the place. Punctures all those Disney tales.

    • "Many an innocent young girl ended up in the Magdalene Laundry as a result of a “consultation” with one of our holy men. "

      And frequently not so innocent after the "consultation".

    • hophmi, let us ignore the fact that Australia has formally apologised for past wrongdoing, and is trying (not hard enough, some of us think) to make some sort of restitution.

      Let us agree, for the moment, that, to apply our principles consistently, we should conduct a BDS campaign against Australia as well as against Israel.

      Let us further agree, for the same giddy moment, that we fail in our duty to conduct a BDS campaign against Australia.

      How does that relieve us of the duty to conduct a BDS campaign against Israel?

      Surely it is better for us to do half our duty than none of it.

    • Bryan, you make a good case.

      I've already given my view on the Empire.

      link to

    • 'And the Geneva Conventions give us all the right to an “ancient heartland”?'

      Do they? In that case, since I am (I suspect*) largely of Angle/Saxon/Jute/Viking descent, I claim my ancient heartland of Northern Germany and Scandinavia. Since I suspect there is a Welsh ancestor somewhere in the background, I also claim the ancient Celtic homeland of Central Europe. And I want to be king of it all, too.

      (*I can't actually produce a family tree to prove this, but everyone knows the ancestry of the English, right?)

    • "In the 7th century … outside Arabs invaded the Holy Land"

      According to Zionist mythology, the Romans drove out the Jews some four or five hundred years before that. So who was living there in the intervening period, and what happened to them?

    • 'Wasn’t Australia a penal colony for Irish “criminals”?'

      Heavens, no. There was no such discrimination.

      "From distant climes, o’er wide-spread seas we come,
      Though not with much eclat or beat of drum,
      True patriots all; for be it understood,
      We left our country for our country’s good;
      No private views disgrac’d our generous zeal,
      What urg’d our travels was our country’s weal;
      And none will doubt but that our emigration
      Has prov’d most useful, to the British nation."

      Henry Carter, maybe.

  • Israeli President Reuven Rivlin calls for removal of Israeli flag
  • What I learned crossing the Qalandia Checkpoint
  • 'Six Jews sitting in the White House discussing the Palestinian state'
    • "If the situation of Israel/Palestine was being discussed, where were the Palestinians?"

      What has it of to do with them? They were't consulted when Israel was being planned, so why drag them in now? They'll only disrupt the proceedings with talk about "rights" and demands for tea, equality, and chocolate biscuits.

    • Obviously they should brace themselves, and learn to feel comfortable about dispossession, destruction, murder and cruelty beyond belief.

      Especially if it's being done to someone else.

    • "Mr. Oren states that Jews have “immense” influence in American policy-making … Mr. Oren sounds like an anti-Semite"

      Yep. It's a version of the old "Jews control everything" trope. He's a Jew hater.

      Sic 'im, Yonah!

  • 'NYT' article on UN's Gaza report strains to demonstrate equivalence in suffering
    • Israel might be satisfied with the Nile to the Euphrates, along with the same sort of control over the rest of the world that they currently have over the US, Canada, and Australia.

    • "in 1967 Israel’s territorial appetite was satisfied"

      What make you think that?

      "The link between the unprovoked assault on the USS Liberty and the wish to hide the massacres and executions was thoroughly investigated by James Bamford in his 2001 book Body of Secrets."

      I haven't read the book, but it seems a bit unlikely that Israel would risk the ire of the US over so inconsequential a matter as the massacre of a bunch of mere Arabs. Israel had already got away with so much; why not a little more?

  • 'Obama coffee' is black and weak -- racist tweet from wife of Israel's vice premier
    • "I don’t think you can attain or achieve it in order to found a city or a religion – you have to be ‘of the earth itself’ in the region where you live "

      I'm sure Mooser is pretty close to the earth at least some of the time.

      In respect of churches, it is the church itself that has to be native to the area, and if Mooser founds it where he is, it is native to that area. Since he is the only member, he is also the church, and thus he is -qua church - autochthonous.

      Of course, with a favourable wind and a bit of effort, Mooser could be autocephalous as well. That'll double his chances on Saturday night.

    • 'Our religious, social and political leaders are just “self-appointed”? '

      Pick any religious leaders you like, trace 'em back, and you'll find that there was someone who appointed him/her/it/other/self as the first leader of that bunch.

      You can do it, too. Be completely autochthonous*. Start your own branch, with you as the sole member, and you can appoint yourself Archbishop, Chief Rabbi, Grand Lama, and Supreme Guru.
      And no-one can say you nay.

      (*And there's a word to impress the girls. Most of them won't know what it means, but they will go home with you to find out.)

    • "did you read the speech?"

      No. I didn't know where it came from. But even if the rest of the speech makes perfect sense, and presents a tight, clear, argument, that bit can still be, as I said, either an attempt to express an idea through vague metaphors, or just a bit of empty rhetoric.

      Can you make sense of the idea of the selfhood of a race? If so, please explicate it for me. I really would like to know what it means.

    • "Or" in place of "of" is usually a simple typo, probably resulting from DTs or a cat demanding attention.

    • +1, oldgeezer.

      (With the proviso that "it's" be replaced with "its" where it stands in the possessive.)

    • “A race of people is like an individual man; until it uses its own talent, takes pride in its own history, expresses its own culture, affirms its own selfhood, it can never fulfill itself.”

      A man can have a talent (e.g. perfect pitch), but what would it mean to say a race had a talent? A race is not the sort of thing that can tune a piano, even if every member of that race has perfect pitch.

      Does he mean that each individual man takes pride in his own personal history, just as the group takes pride in the history of the group? I suppose "its own history" makes some sort of sense, but who does the taking pride? The group as a whole? Pride is a feeling; individual human beings are the sort of things that can have feelings, but groups are not. Does he mean that each member takes pride (and why?) in the history of the group? But if the individual man is like the group, he is supposed to be taking pride in his/her own personal history as well as the history of the group, whereas the group is only taking pride in the history of the group.

      I'll let you try to untangle that for yourself.

      Tying down the notion of "selfhood" is not the easiest of tasks. ( know this because I have researched the subject in detail, and written a book about it.) I have no idea what the selfhood of a race could be, let alone affirming it. Again, a group does not seem to be the sort of thing that can have the sort of selfhood that an individual has.

      At best, Malcolm is using vague metaphors an attempt to express an inchoate idea. More likely, though, it is just empty rhetoric.

    • "Jeez, has Mondo started a “personals” section?"

      : )

  • 'Fresh Air' turns a critique of the occupation into an Oedipal issue
    • Off topic.

      For those of you who were wondering whether your mental image of Australia was inaccurate, here are a couple of stories to assure you that it isn't.

      The first is about a new discovery.

      link to

      The second is about a completely different new discovery. It starts with the enticing phrase "A floodplain near Maningrida thought to have the highest concentration of tarantulas in the world ..."

      link to

      I note that Dr. Raven has named more than 400 spiders.

      "This one is Dorothy, and this one is Tiddles, and he's Mr. Fang, and next to him we have Elvis and Fluffykins, and ..."

      Ex Australia semper aliquid novi et venenosam.

  • Journey through a fractured landscape
    • Since the Queen of Hearts is now in charge, I suspect the efforts to drive out the Palestinians will become even more intense.

  • Israeli leader turns on US Jewish journalists Friedman, Wieseltier, Remnick and Silvers for disloyalty and anti-semitism!
    • "he says Jewish journalists have a disproportionate role in American media"

      Hold on. Isn't that one of those tropey thingies?

      "Oren dismisses the claim that “Jews control the media” as an anti-Semitic canard,"

      Ah! It's a canard. That could hit hard. If you want to avoid being hit by a canard, the best thing to do is duck.

    • "Beinart is not a self-hating bigot who would deny to his own people what everyone else enjoys. "

      I presume you mean he won't deny Americans a decent National Health Service.

      But what has that got to do with Zionism?

    • I worked it out long ago. It's quite simple.

      Everything is anti-Semitic, by default.
      It only stops being anti-Semitic when endorsed by an accredited Zionist.

  • Obscure Netanyahu minister emerges as unsung international hero in latest 'NYT' report
    • "Remember that chemical weapons deal under which Bashar al-Assad of Syria agreed to give up his illegal cache of weapons? It was Israel’s achievement, not Obama’s, but Israel couldn’t take credit for it till now."

      It wasn't Obama's achievement, and it wasn't a U.S.-Russian deal. It was Putin's achievement, and it was a Russian-Syrian deal. The U.S. just had to go along with it

  • Israel's race to economic (and moral) bankruptcy
    • "All are better partners for Russia and China, strategically, geographically and in resources than Israel is. Their trade with Israel is miniscule in the larger picture."

      But I think the trade in American military technology is quite important to China.

    • I think Benedict is referring to the fences around Ceuta and Melilla. These cites are claimed by Spain, and operate as Spanish territory. Morocco disputes the Spanish claims.

    • 'Poland actually wants these “assets”.'

      So the US should break its promises to give the Poles what they want? It can't say "you can't always have what you want"?

      That is going to make international treaties easy to write. Cut out a lot of the legal waffle.
      Simply "We promise not to do that, unless some other country wants us to."

  • Jewish community must 'welcome' anti-Zionist, pro-BDS Jews, Beinart says-- but Shavit says, Excommunicate them
    • I actually almost understood some Yiddish? Wow!

      But what is "men" doing in the sentence? Is it a sort of dummy object for "gibt"?

    • Best reasons for it I've seen so far, Mooser.

      I should point out, though, that there are other ways of assuaging your … um … "leather interest", and they do not involve listening to a lot of dreary old men with beards mumbling in foreign tongues.

    • When the father gives "men" to the son, they both laugh.
      When the son gives "men" to the father, they both cry.

      But what does "men" mean, and what dialect is it?

    • 'It sort of translates as: “And how many times do you need to be told?”'

      I got that completely wrong. My guess was something like "Through Yog Sothoth shall Cthulhu regain his power".

    • "whether the Jews had evolved out of something called a nation"

      But what was that thing called a "nation"?

      " into something else."

      And what could that be?

    • "Support for Israel is essential to 43% of those questioned. Are you, Phil Weiss, saying that those 43% are crazy?"

      I hope he is, because they are.

  • Netanyahu likens BDS to Nazi Germany
    • You mean that Alicia

      link to

      wasn't quite telling the whole, unvarnished truth?

      How heartbreaking to think she would deceive me!

    • '"Comparing the Jewish State State to Nazi Germany which by the way , has a lot in common, can be prosecuted in the west especially in France.”


      Even though you lot are a bunch of rabid-anti-Semites from whom Jews are fleeing in their millions?

    • I meant "the third worst", but for all I know it might be the third worts as well.

    • The Guide says "They are one of the most unpleasant races in the galaxy - not actually evil, but bad tempered, bureaucratic, officious and callous. They wouldn't even lift a finger to save their own grandmothers from the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal without an order, signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public enquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters. If you want to get a lift from a Vogon, forget it. They are vile and ill tempered. If you want to get a drink from a Vogon, stick your finger down his throat. If you want to annoy a Vogon, feed his grandmother to the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal.
      On no account allow a Vogon to read poetry at you"

      link to

      Vogon poetry is the third worts in the universe.

      link to

  • After a hard week in the news, Israeli gets valentines all weekend from NPR
    • "Do you people realize that I am subsisting almost entirely on lettuce?"

      And a few worms, I presume. Better than sushi, anyway.

    • I understand your point.

      In Australia we do keep a lot of Aboriginal names (not the Aborigines themselves, of course) for places, even though we forget that the names mean "Don't camp here , you idiots. It'll be flooded when the rains come." In Brisbane we have suburbs called Kelvin Grove, Newmarket, and Wavell Heights, but also Toowong, Enogerra, and Indooroopilly.

      And some names have been revived. I admit, though, I struggle to remember to say "Uluru" rather than "Ayer's Rock".

      "Baffin Island is Qikiqtaaluk and Devon Island is Tatlurutit.

      The latter names have contextual meaning and resonance."

      But mostly I'd be concentrating on pronouncing them. Yet the other names also have meaning and resonance. The arrival of the British and French explorers is also part of the history of Canada.

      And I'm in favour of honouring brewers.

  • BDS could cost Israel $4.7 billion a year
    • Mooser, these are high and mighty matters, well beyond the wit of you unlettered peasants.

      Even though quite a lot of it resembles the agricultural by-products you shovel out of the byres.

  • The 'Forward''s apprehension about sending a reporter to Gaza -- a further response
    • As I recall, not only was KSM tortured, but the CIA had also kidnapped his wife and two sons.

      No surprise, then, that he confessed to being Jack the Ripper and the Zodiac murderer, and to killing the Beaumont children. I think he claimed that he only wanted the iceberg to dent the Titanic, but it drifted a bit to the left of where he put it.

  • Divestment with a bite
    • 'though it’s the way of suspicions to go beyond reason and become ‘paranoid'"

      I find it difficult to recognize when paranoia goes beyond reason. History and experience teach me that they are out to get me.

  • Israel failed to interview eyewitnesses to soccer boys' slaughter
    • "What is the matter with this frigging country?"

      I presume you mean Israel. Most of this website is devoted to spelling out what is wrong with Israel.

    • Witnesses? We don't need no stinking witnesses. We know what happened, and it's what we tell you happened. Why let a bunch of anti-Semite journalists confuse the issue?

  • How will Sheldon save Israel?
    • "Always in gangs, heavily armed and armored,"

      Well, of course. What if the Palestinian tries to fight back? Someone could get hurt, and you wouldn't want that, would you?

  • Untold Stories: First-ever US Nakba Museum opens in Washington DC
  • UN report catalogs Israeli attacks on Palestinian children, but leaves Israel off child rights abusers 'list of shame'
  • 'NY Times' helps Israel whitewash the killings of four boys playing soccer on Gaza beach
    • "The more principled sort of Times reporters"

      I want you to think very carefully about that phrase.

  • Who's investigating the Rabbis? Jews of Conscience are.
  • 'You have dual citizenship with Israel' -- NPR host hits Sanders with internet canard
    • No, Da Bakr, he is simply pointing out that the set of Zionists is not coterminous with the set of Jews.

      But if you are right that 94% of Jews are supporters of Israel, then you are saying that 94% of Jews are supporters of injustice and oppression, since we know that the existence of Israel is incompatible with justice and freedom. (We have been told this by no less an authority than the Prime Minister of Israel himself.)

      Saying that 94% of Jews are grossly immoral sounds a bit anti-Semitic to me, but the important thing is that it's true. After all, you wouldn't lie to me. You are one of the moral 6%, aren't you?

  • Foxman bashes Israel for taking US and Jewish support for granted and not coming up with a peace plan
    • See, eljay? Israel actually has done something. A lot of things.

      Of course, it is only criticised because it is not a Muslim state.

  • Schumer says Jewish and American interests on Iran deal differ but he has 'to do what's right for U.S.'
    • "in the same way EVERY OTHER RACIAL AND ETHNIC GROUP cares similarly"

      Can a group care if the members don't?

      I recall seeing figures (can't locate them now) showing that more than 50% of American women with Far Eastern ancestry* married men with a different ancestry. They do not seem to worry too much about the survival of their ethnic groups.

      I, of course, do not care about the survival of the white race of which I am a member. If whites disappeared by, say, interbreeding with the blacks, browns, yellows, or green-and-purple-paisley-patterns, or simply as a result of forgetting, in a moment of inattention, to breed at all, it would not worry me one whit.

      (*"Ancestry", folks, not "heritage".)

  • 1266 Palestinian children under 15 were detained in occupied territories last year
    • Citizen, I still don't understand.

      1. Powers hasn't been Irish for quite a while.

      2. The fact that you and she both have Irish ancestors is no more reason for you to feel shame than the fact that both you and she write your names in the Roman alphabet.

      Feel ashamed of your own sins (if there are any) against decency, logic, or grammar, but not of the sins of other people.

  • Israel can handle any threat in the Middle East, but it will go down without young American Jews -- Shavit
    • '"Justice and freedom for the Palestinians are incompatible with the existence of the State of Israel,” Netanyahu added.'

      There we have it, from the horse's mouth. Not only the creation, but the very existence of the state of Israel is immoral. It perpetuates injustice. Accordingly, it should cease to exist.

      By that one sentence N has annulled the claims that Israel has a "right to exist", and that there is any moral legitimacy to Israel.

  • Soldiers expel 200 Palestinians from pool to allow settlers to bathe
    • With its universally unanticipated and fairly garlicky Inquisition.

    • C'mon, Froggy, admit it. You know you lot are a bunch of slavering, wild-eyed, garlic-smelling, anti-Semites, just itching for a chance to slit Jewish throats.

      So are the Norwegians. (Except for the garlic bit.) And the Swedes. And the British. And the Dutch. And the Danes. And just about everyone and everything in Europe, it seems. With or without the garlic.

      Makes you wonder why Israel wants to be in the Eurovision song contest.

    • Jewish settlers are prepared to swim in a pool that has had [shudder] Palestinians swimming in it?

      How astonishingly broad-minded of them!

      Most of us would have had the pool emptied, gamma-ray sterilized, refilled with clean water from a West Bank Judea-Samaria well, and blessed by an appropriate holy man before we entered it.

      I can't help thinking that the settlers are getting slack.

  • Is BDS practicing a double standard with respect to Arab countries?
    • "Don’t twist meanings if you say it’s not bad, then it’s good."

      Don't be silly. Most things are morally neutral. In normal circumstances, shaving before brushing hair is not an act of saintly virtue, but neither is it an the most depraved evil. Similarly, destroying a Jewish state may be neither good nor bad.

      So why is it bad?

      “ Just as an Arab state can if it wishes, not oppress its minorities, so can Israel. Even being a jewish state."

      Maybe it can exist without oppressing its minorities, but if it did not exist it certainly would not oppress Palestinians. This is a reason why destroying it would be good.

      "This is just related to the subject of double standards."

      You seem obsessed with the idea of double standards.

      O.K., let us, for the moment, pretend that I and others here do apply double standards when discussing Israel. Let us also pretend that we apply double standards because we (and especially Mooser) are a bunch of fanatical anti-Semites who, in private, wear SS uniforms and read back copies of Der Stürmer.

      Would that make Israel's conduct right?

      Would that mitigate, by one scrap, the evil that Israel commits daily?

      If not, stop wittering about double standards.

      "But your noble argument does not answer my question. Why is it good to destroy a jewish state ?"

      Here's another answer.

      The idea of a Jewish State is an ethnically based state, run for the benefit of a single ethnicity. To be "Jewish", the state cannot give equal rights to non-Jews. Otherwise it would be just another state, albeit one with a lot of Jews.

      Insofar as being "a Jewish state" implies that the state will support the supremacy of one ethnic/religious group over another, being "a Jewish state" is a breach of fundamental morality.

      The concept of a land for a specific ethnic/religious group is inherently unjust. It is always wrong for a state to privilege one ethnicity over others.

      (And don't start maundering about how other states privilege this or that ethnicity. It's still wrong, even if everyone does it.)

    • Reciprocating in a inverted position is difficult, but not impossible.

    • Echinococcus, my wife's sister married a Frenchman, but I try not to let that prejudice my view of the French.

    • "Why is it good ?"

      So no answer to my question.

      I think it would be good because it would relieve the oppression of the Palestinians.

      "Why can Arabs be arabs, and not jews be jews if they so wish ?"

      Jews can be Jews without a Jewish state and without oppressing Arabs. It might even be possible for Arabs to be Arabs without being oppressed, though we are still awaiting empirical evidence for this.

      "What business is it of yours ?"

      Firstly, I am fed up with both my countries* being dragooned into helping the stupid Americans fight their stupid wars for Israel.

      Second, contrary to popular opinion, I am a human being. As such I am a member of the moral community, and thus have a duty and an interest in justice. The Prime Minister of Israel assures us that the existence of Israel is not compatable with justice. Not that I needed him to tell me.

      (*Australia and Britain)

    • One aspect of the double standards argument that I find particularly annoying is that those who deploy it ignore the protests made against the "other wrong".

      The standard form is:

      1. There are protests against Israeli conduct.
      2. There are no protests against (e.g.) FGM.
      3. The only possible reason for this difference is anti-Semitism.
      4. Therefore, the protests are motivated by anti-Semitism.
      5. Therefore, the protests should be rejected.

      The holes in this argument are such that only the totally logic-impaired Ziocaine (TM) addict could fail to drive a truck through them.

      My specific grouse is against premise 2. In every case I have seen, the "other wrong" mentioned is one that has been met with continual, strong protest, and the person making the argument is in a position to know that. The premise is a lie.

    • "Israel’s destruction as a Jewish state."

      You say that as if it were a bad thing. Why is it bad?

  • Obama's disgust for Netanyahu's 'stink' signals coming era of Jewish persecution in the U.S., says 'Tablet'
  • Netanyahu cabinet members reject two-state solution; call for annexation of occupied territories
    • O.K. Annex the lot. Then what?

    • "He added that if the PLO were to make pronouncements on creating one-state based off of religious literature,"

      Surely he meant "based on religious literature"!

    • "a just society that is loyal to the principles of a Jewish state”

      How is that possible? The principles of a Jewish state exclude justice.

  • Supreme Court slam dunks the Israel lobby on Jerusalem, 6-3 (and Rubio, Oren, and Engel are angry)
    • Hophmi, this string is so long that I am not sure whether this comment will arrive in the right place, and, what is worse, I have lost the thread of your argument.

      It seems to me that you are saying that, because European Jews were killed in greater proportion than other "ethnic groups", Jews in general have rights which other people do not have, or that their wishes must be granted even at the expense of other people.

      I do not see how even the actual victims of the Holocaust (let alone Jews safe in America, or safeish in Palestine) acquire extra rights or privileges. Can you provide an argument to support that idea?

      If not, how does the suffering of the Holocaust give Jews in general a right to take over Palestine and drive out the Palestinians?

      And I should point out that calling Israel "the state that was formed by Jewish refugees" is inaccurate. It was planned long before the Holocaust, and the plan was executed largely by people who were already resident in Palestine.

      In regard to those refugees who did take part in the setting up of Israel, I can only say they were a most contemptible bunch. Instead of fulfilling their duty of gratitude to the people of the country, they allied themselves with the people who were trying to take over the country.

      By this act, they made themselves invaders.

    • Oh, Lord! Hostage is at it again.

      Historical facts, comprehensive knowledge of documents, tight legal reasoning - how is a simple Zionist supposed to peddle his propaganda in the face of that lot?

      Just not fair to the poor dears, is it?

    • "Is there something wrong with not liking Israel? Is it against the law or something? "

      I'm pretty sure it is.

      Don't write anything against Israel. Don't say anything against Israel. Don't even think anything against Israel. Remember, these days you can go to jail for what you are thinking, let alone that woo look in your eye.

    • "Have you or the Mondoweiss staff written anything positive about Israel?"

      I'm not staff, but I have (admittedly, in a spirit of mockery) acknowledged that Israel has sexy beach girls.

  • People behind BDS are also responsible for 9/11 attack, Israeli centrist tells NY synagogue
  • Netanyahu government ramps up effort to combat BDS
  • Netanyahu under siege, in 'the most embattled democracy on earth'
    • During the Vietnam War numerous Americans decided they would rather be Canadians or Swedes. (I met some when I lived in Sweden.) Quite a few Ausralians decided to pay extended visits to their relatives in Britain or various bits of Europe.

      So yes, there is a precedent.

      (But Sweden isn't your best choice if your name is Assange.)

  • Human rights organizations condemn Sheldon Adelson-led anti-BDS meeting
  • Rivlin to announce 'joint Israeli society' -- and try to curb Palestinian house demolitions
    • Fascinating stuff.

      "protecting the rights of Jews as a viable and vibrant minority in any country they happen to be living in,"

      I'd agree with Jews having equal individual rights, and those rights being as protected as everyone else's rights, but I can't see why they have to be a viable and vibrant minority.

      (Hint to TOI translator: "Not only does each group not interact ..." is the correct construction. )

  • Munayyer and Beinart's historic debate on the solution to the conflict
    • “So, basically, Munayyer thinks Jews have no right to self-determination”

      We have discussed and presented arguments against the alleged right of self-determination of Jews qua Jews many times. In the light of this, one would think that hophmi would present at least a ghost of a hint of the beginnings of a possible sketch of what might, after much development, and when viewed with generosity of spirit, be something that vaguely resembles an approximation of an argument for such a right.

      But one would be mistaken to so think.

  • Gaza’s al-Nasser Salah al-Din Brigades prepares for next Israeli war
    • I suspect it is incoherent because of the vagueness of the concept and the multiplicity of the items that seem to be subsumed under it. Nor does it help when “my” is explained in another vague term, “identify”. In my experience, such vagueness often goes together with incoherence. However, I will say that I have not yet detected a formal self-contradiction in the concept.

      For me, the important, and critical, question is that of which duties one owes to the members of which group*. Firstly, I say that one has a duty of support to the society which supports one. In your case, that is Israel, and it means a duty towards all Israelis, Jewish and non-Jewish, equally.** Secondly, a duty to all the people controlled by that same polity. This means that your duty extends equally to the population of the West Bank. (Especially since the West Bank is, in large part, economically integrated with Israel.) Those are, I would say, primarily “your people”. And yet you seem use the term to refer to Jews in general, which excludes the non-Jewish Israelis and the non-Jews of the West bank, but includes a large bunch of foreigners. I cannot see any reason for this.

      “If you’ve read my comments, you should know that I’ve never denied the Palestinian’s right to live in their homeland, which is also my homeland.”

      And yet you advocate partition, which means that you deny both Palestinians and local Jews*** the right to live in any part of their “homeland”, and restrict each group to just part of it.

      (*Over and above general duties to humanity in general.
      **Though, considering the support Israel gets from the USA, you would seem to have a duty to Americans as well.
      *** I use the expression “local Jews” because I do not accept the idea that Jews from other parts of the world have a right to live in Palestine.)

    • I'm going to guess that by "my people" you mean Jews. Why do you class Jews as "my"? What significance does "my" have? Do you also class Israelis, residents of Palestine, history teachers, or MW posters as "my people"? If not, why not?

      I do not ask these questions frivolously. I find the "my people" concept very difficult to grasp, and I suspect it is incoherent.

      If "my people's historic homeland" implies that Jews have a right to live there, then does "Palestian homeland" imply that Palestinians have a right to live there?

      If so, the first step to your goal of everyone in the region living in peace is to stop supporting a system which denies Palestinians the right to live in Palestine. At a minimum, support Right of Return. Better yet, support one state in Palestine with equal rights for all.

    • Non-violent didn't work either. Keep fingers crossed about BDS.

    • "I wish the Palestinians would give up violent resistance "

      They have tried non-violent resistance.

    • "The occupation came to us, we didn’t go to it,”

      This is a point that should always be remembered. There was no Palestinian invasion to take over parts of Europe or the Americas. It was the Zionists who invaded Palestine and started the whole business.

      It is their willing successor who bear the greater part of the moral responsibility.

  • Obama says peace talks are pointless because Netanyahu won't see the 'best' in others
    • I am prepared to believe that most politicians are constitutionally incapable of thinking something they do is wrong.

  • What I Was Told: Arabs hate Jews
    • With an appropriate mix of long, thin, slimy ones and short, fat, juicy ones. I think both Emperor Charles V and Luther agreed about that, at least. It was the "bite their heads off, suck their guts out, throw the skins away" policy that was the cause of the dispute.

    • That's the original 1521 recipe, is it?

    • And are you eating fresh worms, or worms from a can?

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