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  • Before there was 'fake news' there was Judith Miller
    • "Before there was ‘fake news’ there was Judith Miller"

      I don't know much about this person, but I do know about fake news, and I know it long preceded her.

      Fake news was old news when Waugh wrote Scoop! and Humbert Wolfe wrote:

      You cannot hope to bribe or twist
      (thank God!) the British journalist.
      But, seeing what the man will do
      unbribed, there’s no occasion to.

      A fine article by John Pilger:

      http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/01/17/the-issue-is-not-trump-it-is-us/

      Particularly depressing part for me:
      A few years ago, Terry Eagleton, then professor of English literature at Manchester University, reckoned that “for the first time in two centuries, there is no eminent British poet, playwright or novelist prepared to question the foundations of the western way of life”.

      No Shelley speaks for the poor, no Blake for utopian dreams, no Byron damns the corruption of the ruling class, no Thomas Carlyle and John Ruskin reveal the moral disaster of capitalism. William Morris, Oscar Wilde, HG Wells, George Bernard Shaw have no equivalents today. Harold Pinter was the last to raise his voice. Among today’s insistent voices of consumer-feminism, none echoes Virginia Woolf, who described “the arts of dominating other people… of ruling, of killing, of acquiring land and capital”.

      And more about lies here.

      https://coto2.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/some-big-lies-of-science/

      As for truth, I've quoted this before, and I will again.

      子曰:「...君子於其所不知,蓋闕如也。名不正,則言不順;言不順,則事不成;事不成,則禮樂不興;禮樂不興,則刑罰不中;刑罰不中,則民無所措手足。故君子名之必可言也,言之必可行也。君子於其言,無所苟而已矣。」

      The Master said, "... A superior man, in regard to what he does not know, shows a cautious reserve. If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success. When affairs cannot be carried on to success, proprieties and music will not flourish. When proprieties and music do not flourish, punishments will not be properly awarded. When punishments are not properly awarded, the people do not know how to move hand or foot. Therefore a superior man considers it necessary that the names he uses may be spoken appropriately, and also that what he speaks may be carried out appropriately. What the superior man requires is just that in his words there may be nothing incorrect."

      Analects 13:3

  • 'Constructed crisis for political ends': anti-Semitism claims are prime weapon for UK Israel lobby, Al Jazeera shows
    • According to Wikipedia, the term "male chauvinism" was first used in a play in 1935. However, it remained almost unknown to the rest of the world until the later 60s, when the Women's Libbers started using it. (I, of course, remember this.) it was quite a useful term, and easily understood because in those days quite a few of us actually knew what words meant.

      Nowadays, thanks to the usual deadly trio of laziness, carelessness, and ignorance, the "male" is, more often than not, omitted. The term for extreme nationalism is used to mean the belief in male superiority.

      And I expect to hear the usual cries of "it doesn't matter because we all know what they mean". Only sometimes we don't.

    • "We’ve gotta say in the language of social democracy, I think, these people are misogynistic, they are homophobic, they are racist, they are anti-Semitic, they are reactionary."

      And so they should be denied all rights and never allowed to participate in any political process.

      (Incidentally, when did people start using "misogyny" to mean "male chauvinism"?)

    • "There is no Anti-Semitism in Britain"

      Not now, but I'll be back there again for a few days in February.

  • Antisemitism and its useful idiots
    • "the luxury of reading about all of the 100 or so candidates for the Senate before voting. "

      Luxury? Sounds like a cruel and unusual punishment to me.

      You are also unfortunate in your polling station. Quite a few do offer vegetarian options, in plain wrapper and without publicly questioning your patriotism.

    • "a revealing example on the accusatory phenomenon as a whole"

      Anti-Semite!
      Homophobe!
      Racist!
      Sexist!
      Climate Change Denier!
      Islamophobe!
      Populist!
      Xenophobe!

      So much easier than actually using reason and gaining enough knowledge to debate the issue.

    • And a bit more essential information about Australian voting.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sausage_sizzle
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Sausage

      Drawing a rude picture will not invalidate your vote.

      http://mashable.com/2016/07/02/sausage-harambe-australian-election/#zaJqK1E4oqqr

      And on this site you can see the Australian coat of arms.

      http://democracysausage.org

    • We don't have primaries. Members of the party in the electorate offer themselves as candidates. A selection committe of senior party members decide which one they hate least and will cause the least amount of spontaneous vomiting from the public, and declare him/her/it/whatever the candidate.

      You can declare yourself a candidate without being a member of any party, as well. You have to pay a deposit to the Electoral Commission, If you fail to get a certain percentage of votes, the deposit will not be refunded.

      Voting is compulsory. All citizens have to enroll in their district. The Electoral Commission keeps a list, and checks it twice. It then assumes everyone is naughty, and, just before the election, sends a letter, with a voting card, telling where, when, and how to vote. It doesn't bother telling you whom to vote for, because, no matter whom you vote for, it won't make any difference.

      On election day you turn up at the polling place, ignore all the party reps telling you how to vote for their candidate, buy a sausage from the sausage-sizzle (another of your civic duties), look at the display the local historian has set out, and, eventually, go in and present yourself to a nice lady who crosses your name off her copy of the list and gives you your ballot papers. You go to the booth, scan the papers to find the "hang the lot of them" option, fail to find it, and then despairingly put numbers at random next to names you have never seen before.

      Your votes then go into the Australian Preferential voting system. (This was, it is rumoured, fully understood by George Pennington, of Bendigo, in a moment of blinding insight on the 18th of March, 1976. Apparently he forgot it the next day.) This system counts, collates, and transfers your votes for an inordinately long time, and finally comes up with a result no-one wanted. This is then called the Government.

      The British system is similar, except that voting is not compulsory, votes are not transferable, and thus can be done with a single X, and it always rains on election day.

    • Annie, people in the British and Australian systems don't know what you mean by "registered".

      Most of us are not members of any political party. We vote for whomever we want, and then grumble that it didn't make anything better.

      Joining a party is like joining a club. The party can decide whether it wants you. You pay membership fees, and have some say in the running of the party.

  • The immaculate conception of Louis Brandeis
    • "So if 1000 Arabs were caught after entering Palestine illegally, we can safely assume that many thousand more entered Palestine and were not caught."

      No, we cannot make that assumption. We have no way of estimating the proportion of caught to uncaught for that place and time.

  • Mock campaign supporting two-state solution reveals liberal Israeli racism
  • It turns out Jews are as stupid as everyone else
    • Mooser, if you give me a couple of billion dollars, I'll take up that challenge. I'll let you know if you are right.

    • Try replacing it with coffee.

    • "Yeshiva people automatically think, if only he would have studied torah he would have been a great rabbi, "

      Yeshiva people need to learn how to form conditional sentences.

      "If he had studied Torah, he would have been a great rabbi."

      "and the culture of books and queries involved in talmud study, we of the books attribute the culture of ours for producing einstein. "

      How did Newton and Hawking manage without that culture of books, queries, and advanced mathematics involved in Talmud study?

    • As the generations have got further away from European education.

    • Now check out where they were born, where they were educated, and where they did their important work.

    • Sometimes I think that in Canberra we've got someone else's share as well as our own.

    • "Insofar as there is any truth in the idea of Jews as bearers of freethinking modernity, it concerns only a transitional type of Jew who arose out of the collapse of the closed medieval ghetto"

      I have noted before that the Jews who made the greatest contributions to Western civilization were the least Jewish Jews. They had adopted the culture of the country they lived in, so that it is absurd to call the contribution of, say, a German Jew, educated as a member of the German middle class, a Jewish contribution rather than a German contribution.

    • "Anyone asked the Non Jewish members what they think??"

      Don't be silly.

  • Origins of a golden shower
    • '"Blackmail" was just the cover...'

      Undoubtedly, but the effect has been to free Trump from the danger of blackmail. Suppose the Bad Guys threaten to release dossiers showing Trump is guilty of the most appalling depravity - he wears pink silk knickers, he eats French cheese, he writes poetry - and then demand his compliance. He will be able to quote the Iron Duke, secure in the knowledge that if these horrors were revealed, much of the public would simply say "CIA/CNN at it again" and discount it.

    • But you're a, Canadian.

    • Of course, this material is now useless as blackmail. Blackmail works by, in return for a consideration, keeping secret material which would be embarrassing if revealed.

      But this has been revealed, and, although it has annoyed, it has failed to embarrass Trump. And, with all the fuss around this story, it seems unlikely that any other material now being concocted would be any more convincing.

      The upshot is that, although some people may be shocked at the thought of a President who has associated with ladies, any further attempt at blackmail will fail.

      Thus, in Trump you seem to have an unblackmailable president.

    • "Trump is just not presidential material."

      None of your presidents are. But what do you expect if you keep electing Americans?

      Come to your senses and make me your king.

    • I read that, when he went into hiding, the agent asked his neighbour to look after his cat. Bang goes any credibility right there. No real SIS/MI6 agent would have a pet of any type, and cats are for super villains. This guy is, at best, some minor back room clerk.

  • Why Israel wants us to say 'terror'
    • "Every morning I wake up as I am killing a woman with a baby in her arms..."

      When I was twenty, the Australian Government offered me an all-expenses-paid trip to Vietnam. I declined. (With some difficulty. They were damned insistent about it.)

      Your post confirms my belief that I made the right decision, if only for prudential reasons. Bleak thoughts do , sometimes, oppress me in the small hours, but no such memories as yours.

      I applaud your current courage in carrying on.

  • How I got over the Milk-and-Honey-and-Chosen-People place
    • Good old Rumi delivers the goods yet again.

      One day, when I have a spare half hour or so, I must learn Persian so that I can read Rumi and Hafiz and those other guys in the original.

    • Not alone in that. Most religions have weird ideas about biology.

    • Is there a prayer to thank God for not making me a Jew?

      I'm sure Mooser and I could agree on that one.

  • The Palestinian state never had a chance: a review of Toufic Haddad's 'Palestine Ltd: Neoliberalism and Nationalism in the Occupied Territory'
    • The state of Palestine already existed in 1948, under British mandate. It did not automatically cease to exist when the mandate ended. Declaring a state in either the Partition "Arab State" or the post-war West Bank + Gaza could have been construed as recognition of Israel.

    • "At no time in the past 2,000 years has Palestine had full control of all it’s territories in order to become an independent state."

      The Kingdom of Jerusalem covered pretty much all the territory of Palestine, and it was an independent state.

      Oh.

      Set up by foreign invaders.

      Never mind.

  • Jared Kushner fired me over Israel ten years ago
    • "the quiet death of the 58 year old Nathan Lenvin during a DOJ recruiting trip in Chicago. "

      Quiet and unassisted?

  • Israel-Palestine conflict could 'explode' under Donald Trump, Israel supporter warns
  • There is no such thing as 'Progressive Except Palestine'
  • Israeli settlers attack Palestinian videographer of Hebron shooting in attempt to 'silence documentation and resistance'
    • Just, what's the connection between Streep's silly speech and Shamsiyah?

      Or are you contrasting the publicity given to the one with the suppression of the other?

  • Israeli diplomat schemed to 'take down' UK's Deputy Foreign Secretary because he slammed settlements
  • The mainstreaming of Palestinian genocide
    • "You’ve never heard of My Lai?"

      If no Jews were involved, why would hophmi pay any attention to My Lai?

    • "I don’t think that embassies fund expensive lunches for a mere chat among friends with no serious purpose, "

      I thought that was exactly what embassies were for.

    • Since American politicians are so outraged at alleged Russian interference in US elections, I'm sure we'll see them venting similar outrage at these plans for Israeli interference in the election of MPs in America's second best ally.

    • "The good news:

      Israel is digging its grave. "

      The bad news. It seems determined to fill the grave with Palestinians.

  • Booker slams UN resolution as 'anti-Israel,' while Saban says it's anti-American
    • "Time for American Revolution 2.0. King George was overthrown"

      Actually, he carried on being King for quite a while. It was his rule in America that was overthrown.

      In the light of the recent election, you might want to rethink that move.

  • New poll shows sharp partisan divide on UN settlements resolution, and between Jews and African-Americans
  • After Israeli soldier is convicted of manslaughter, Times and Post portray case as isolated incident
  • In 'breathtaking' UN vote, Obama changed his policy on Israeli settlements, making them a war crime -- Finkelstein
    • I'm thoroughly fed up with all this bitching and moaning about Trump. Americans have elected a complete arsehole as President. So what? They always do.

      Either shoot him and start your war with Russia, or learn to put up with him.

      But, for pity's sake, stop wittering.

    • Siberiak, Annie saves energy by avoiding the shift key. Don't overdo your praise, though. Her dedication to MW is slightly less than total. I hear rumours that she still goes to sleep from time to time. At least twice since Christmas.

    • I thought his gestures simply were those of someone randomly flailing around for an answer. Even if he is imitating a specific disability, I still think that making America less of a threat to the world is more important than being sensitive.

      I expected better from Juan Cole.

    • Since Keith has been burned, I should make it clear that, although I have, on a very few occasions, expressed tentative agreement with some of his comments, I am not associated with him or his subversion of MW.

      I am not now, and never have been, a Russian operative of any sort.

      I have no association with the KGB or the SVR.

      Nor am I a member of or in any way connected with ASIO, ASIS, MI5, MI6, CIA, ISI, Svenska Säkerhets Polisen, or any other intelligence gathering or similar clandestine organization, whether governmental or non-governmental.

      Beyond that which is publicly available, I have no knowledge of the structure, membership, or activities of any such organization, and, if I did have such knowledge, I would not be disposed to speak of it. Indeed, as a signatory to the Official Secrets Act, it would be illegal for me to do so, at least in the UK.

      Besides, I'm retired now.

      I hope that will suffice to dispel any suspicion which might have fallen on me through responding to some of Keith's comments.

    • Generational thing, maybe. For someone my age, the phrase "Lone Gunman" carries as much significance as "Grassy Knoll".

    • "If only we had a modern day Sir Humphrey."

      Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister are still, after all these years, the best exposé of Government in practice.

    • Annie, don't you know about Lone Crazed Gunmen?

      And Trump was mocking the way the reporter was flustered. He used the same set of gestures to mock other, non-disabled, people who were flustered when unable to answer difficult questions.

    • "Still, this FAKE FACT– that Putin hacked the DNC, Podesta et al , stole the U.S. election, and virtually installed his preferred candidate– will now be cemented into American mythology,"

      Streep is working hard to cement the fake "fact" that Trump was mocking the reporter's disability.

    • "After January 20th, Trump will be in a much stronger position."

      If he lasts that long, without some Lone Crazed Gunman (TM) taking him out.

      And by then they might have been able to start a war with Russia. They are trying hard enough.

  • John Kerry picked the wrong timeline for the Jewish state
    • Pabelmont, Misterioso. No, I haven't actually read Ms Peter's famous work, but some of the Zionists who post here assure us that Palestine was almost empty until the Zionists started making the desert bloom, and then Arabs from the surrounding countries poured to take advantage of them. Since Zionists are never wrong (you ask them, if you doubt that), I can only conclude that Balfour must have somehow inflated the figures.

      And I don't think I have an ilk to be of. Ilks are more Mooser's line.

    • 'In 1919 he responded to Lord Curzon, “... the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land”. '

      700,000 in 1919? Balfour was fantasising. There were hardly any Arabs in Palestine then. They all rushed in during the Mandate period. Or so we are told.

    • "And Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long traditions, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land”

      So Jews are more important than Arabs! Even if they are wrong and bad.

    • 'I answered: “Mr. Balfour, you meet the wrong kind of Jews”. '

      You, Mooser?

  • Love in the age of Trump
    • Whoops! Electronic hiccups in the server led to duplication.

    • "May has only succeeded in looking ridiculous."

      Not an unusual position for a PM.

    • "Shouldn’t we be mourning the death of truth? Aren’t the lights of liberal reason being snuffed out? "

      What truth? What liberal reason? What fantasy world is Cohen living in?

      Such things are long gone, and they were hardly there to begin with.

    • "Shouldn’t we be mourning the death of truth? Aren’t the lights of liberal reason being snuffed out? "

      What truth? What liberal reason? What fantasy world is Cohen living in?

      Such things are long gone, and they were hardly there anyway.

  • The challenges of being a Palestinian doctor in the 'Jewish state'
  • Terrorism: How the Israeli state was won
    • "The urge to survive is natural and good."

      That depends on what the survival is for. If the survivors (say, singers or French postmodernists) are going to inflict suffering on others, is the urge good?

      I have written about the morality of survival here. Read it again.

      http://mondoweiss.net/2016/02/new-york-times-picks-up-bernie-sanderss-socialist-kibbutz-but-leaves-out-the-ethnic-cleansing/#comment-824138

      "The urge to reject the coercive powers of the czar and like minded ministers and peasants is good. Freedom is good."

      But those urges does not entail setting up a Jewish State. The people of Revolutionary Yiddishland had those urges, but did not fall into Zionism.

      http://mondoweiss.net/2017/01/remembering-revolutionary-yiddishland/

      "The choice of Palestine was a logical choice, for any urge for self rule required attracting large numbers and only a popular destination could attract the sacrifice and effort that would be required for the attempt at self rule."

      But since Palestine was a morally wrong choice, another destination should have been chosen. And if no other destination was morally acceptable, the project of self rule should have been abandoned. There is no moral principle that says Jews should get what they want.

      "They were able to escape poland where they were fated to be slaughtered and instead settled in palestine"

      And when they arrived, did they say to the Palestinians, "Thank you for having us in your country. We will try our best to live in harmony with you, and help you to make Palestine a better place for us all"?

      Or did they do the other thing?

    • "the Jewish urge to self rule in 1897 was natural and good."

      Natural, just maybe. But I see nothing good about it. Can you explain why you think it was a good urge?

      "The location chosen for that self rule was wrong, from the perspective of the Palestinians."

      No, not from anyone's "perspective". It was flat out morally wrong.

      "Since in fact hundreds of thousands of jews who made it to palestine before 1939 saved their lives based upon the evil done to the Palestinians"

      It has already been pointed out to you that it is morally dubious to benefit from evil done to others.

      "it emerges that a great salvation and a great catastrophe occurred as a result of the same act."

      Not exactly. The salvation did not automatically entail the catastrophe. The catastrophe was a deliberate decision on the part of the Zionists.

      The "great salvation" occurred because the British Government allowed Jewish immigration.

      The great catastrophe occurred because those Jews were not prepared to integrate and become good citizens and good neighbours, but chose to create a super-ghetto for themselves, and suppressed or drove out the Palestinians.

      You seem to be trying to claim some sort of moral neutrality or moral balance between Zionist and Palestinian. There is none.

      Israel was evil in conception, evil in creation, and is evil in conduct.

      Zionism is merely and purely evil.

    • You have now filled me with a desire to create a beach state called Pamela Andersonstan.

    • "lack, or alleged lack, of any previous political entity in Palestine"

      I regularly ask Zionists why this is relevant. They just as regularly fail to answer.

      Yonah Fredman seems to be promoting a somewhat different history-based argument to the effect that the concept of justification for the creation of Israel is no more appropriate than it would be for an earthquake. The whole business was brought about, not by moral agents, but by the Dictates of History, against which all, Zionist and anti-Zionist, strive in vain. Thus, as with Albert and the Lion, no-one is really to blame.

      It just happened to work out the way the Zionists wanted, and tough on the Palestinians.

    • If you were real, RoHa the grammarian would suggest that you learn more English, and RoHa the old academic would throw you out of the class for cheating.

      But actually you are a liar. It is your website, and you are just promoting your immoral and corrupting business.

    • I am no expert on this topic, but I do want to make a few comments.

      Jackdaw has seized on TS's use of "always", and pointed out that this was not literally true. There were occasions when Jews served in Jews-only unit of the British Army. But most of us would point this out with a smug smirk, rather than frantic accusations of lying.

      As far as I can tell, most British Jews were lumped in same units as the CofEs, RCs, and fancy buggers (as the sergeant phrased at church parade), but, in Palestine, in 1939 the British Army began setting up infantry companies which were later combined into the Palestine Regiment. And these companies were segregated.

      Note that this started before Chaim Weizman's "generous offer".

      Given the context of the position of Britain in Palestine, and especially the brutal response to the Arab revolt just a few years previously, I find it surprising that the British were able to recruit any Palestinian Arabs at all. Eventually, of course, the Zionists decided that this wouldn't do. Under the British flag, alongside Arabs? Fighting the Nazis was not important enough to put up with that.

    • "as far as Zionism goes, the urge towards self rule does not suffice, "

      Then "accepting " that urge seems morally questionable.

    • "The nations considered the jews a nation apart."

      So how does that justify Zionism? Spell out the moral argument for us.

    • The Jewish Brigade should not be confused with the Palestine Regiment.

      https://www.countercurrents.org/fisk171103.htm

    • Seriously.

      Mooser believes that a spoonful of humour helps the medicine go down, but he wears not motley in his brain. He has enough wit to tell a hawk from a handsaw, and a deep moral concern for humanity. His comments mix subtle insights with pointed criticism, sometimes in plain text, sometimes wrapped in jokes. He takes the role of a jester, a fool who speaks wisely of what "wise" men do foolishly. That is serious business.

    • So it was Zionists being nasty to other, slightly less fanatical, Zionists. That will restore their good name.

    • I'm not sure it is wise to conflate "It didn't happen" with "It happened, and a jolly good thing, too!"

    • " I am the only non Jew-hater here so have much to say…"

      If you think that anyone who disagrees with you about Israel is a Jew hater, that rather dims the prospect of rational discussion. But I'll give it a shot, anyway.

      "As regards Zion, In the same way as a Moslem prays to Mecca, a Jew prays to Jerusalem and asks to return – Jerusalem is Zion."

      How does this justify the conception, creation, and conduct of Israel?

      "I love the idea of Jews not coming from Israel"
      Modern Israeli Jews come from Israel. Modern British Jews come from Britain. Many of the Jews who poured into Palestine during the Mandate were Polish Jews. They came from Poland.

      "As regards the secular state of Palestine, I think the Hamas handling of the Jewish synagogues, the annual attempts to destroy Joseph’s tomb and the stoning of worshippers at the wailing wall are indications of the tolerance that this myth would entail. Alas this idea is truly dead."

      From the nineteenth century onwards, Zionists have worked very hard both to make the Palestinians hate Jews, and to teach themselves to hate Palestinians. And they have succeeded. Even as late as the 1930s (still well before Israel created Hamas) the Arabs were willing to have a go at living together with the Zionists. But the Zionists wanted their Jewish state.

      It will be very difficult now for the hatred to be overcome. Certainly a Truth and Reconciliation process will be needed. Zionists are not interested
      in reconciliation. They just want the land. And Zionists will have nothing to do with truth. No truth-handlers, they. So for a T&R process to succeed, Israelis will have to give up Zionism.

      "I did like the idea that Jordanians owning Samaria and Judea as still seen as acceptable."

      The West Bank wasn't "owned" by Jordanians. It was governed by Jordan, and this was acceptable at the time because it was agreed with the people who lived there.

      "My point that no government existed before the Jordanians and Egypt pulled out from Judaea, Samaria and Gaza has been accepted thanks "
      Of course there was a government. The Jordanian government ran the West Bank.

      "my point is there was no Palestinian nation just clans… so all the comments about a unified Palestinian view, response or direction before 1967 is unfounded."
      A "nation" is not necessary for a unified Palestinian view. And even if there wasn't a unified Palestinian view, that does not justify the terrorism and dispossession of the Palestinians.

      "As regards the right of return… again good idea – The Jews came from there so this is very relevant while the Arabs originate from Saudi, Iraq and the Bayswater road (someone quoted 7th century above so clearly interlopers) so let them return thence. "

      I thought the Jews were supposed to be descendants of Abraham, who was an Iraqi. So Jews originate from Iraq as well. Arabs, on the other hand, are people who speak Arabic as first language, regardless of where their ancestors came from. And the ancestors of the Palestinians are most likely the Canaanites, Samaritans, and Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam.

      Of course, the Right of Return applies not to "races" or "nations" or "peoples". It applies to refugees who were driven from their homes.

      As for constructive solutions that would work, there cannot be one until the Israelis give up the Zionist ideology and start behaving reasonably.

    • And do you also deny the continual terrorism?

    • Jordan was part of Palestine and it being taken away to form Jordan is some how acceptable"

      It was not part of Palestine, and it wasn't taken away from anyone. Jordan is the state of the people who lived there.

      "but when Jews get their land back it is not."

      Palestine was not the land of foreign Jews. It was the land of the people who lived there.

      "Judaea and Samaria or the West Bank of Jordan has never had local rule "

      So what?

      " between 1948 and 1967 it was owned by Jordan (as is the Dome of the Rock to this day) – never complained about by the Anti-Jew press."

      Since the native people who lived in the West Bank put it into Jordanian trusteeship, there was nothing to complain about. What anti-Jew press?

      "The Heart of the article is about Europeans somehow appeasing the holocaust"

      No, the heart of the article is the long tradition of terrorism that the Zionists employ.

      " yet continued Jewish presence,"

      Which doesn't give foreign Jews any right to live there, let alone drive out anyone else and establish a state.

      "Tel Aviv, the Peel Report had nothing to do with the holocaust. "

      No one said it did.

      "The Dhimmi turned desert into meadows"

      Mostly the Zionists stole the farms that the Palestinian Arabs had established.

      "The only reference to government in the region in the above response was Christian Jerusalem"

      Proving you were wrong about your previous claim.

      "Arab nationalism and statehood did not exist before the routing of Turkey and British encouragement…"

      From the seventh century to the first Crusade, Palestine was part of an essentially Arab State. Later it became part of the Ottoman state. There was always a state present. As for the rise of Arab nationalism, how does the time it arose give any rights to Jews to take over Palestine?

      Instead of just tossing this stuff out, show why it is a justification for Zionism.

      "As regards 1937 division refusal – 80 years – in your comfy armchair and typing on a web site is easy to State “quite-right” don’t settle for it… After all it is better to stand by principles than resolve anything ever…"

      The Palestinians offered a resolution: a democratic state in Palestine which even the foreign immigrants would be accepted as full and equal citizens. But the Zionists wouldn't accept equality.

    • "mutual recognition and respect is the only way."

      Let the Israelis start by recognising the Right of Return.

    • "Jews have always lived in the region."

      So what? That doesn't give Polish Jews a right to push into the region and drive out the Muslims and Christians.

      "Jerusalem has only ever been the capital of a state 3 times, all 3 times Jewish. "

      Jerusalem was the capital of the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem.

      "Tel Avi was established in 1880 long before the Holocaust. "

      So what?

      "1905 famine saw 25% of both Jews and Arabs perish from hunger as there was no government there."

      Unfortunate, but so what?

      " 1919 saw 90% of the land becoming Jordan. "

      But Transjordan isn't part of Palestine.

      "1937 saw the Peel plan recommendation for division, rejected by the Arabs. "

      And quite right, too. Why should the Arabs agree to having their land cut into pieces to accommodate the crazy ideas of foreign immigrants and their local born children?

    • "Just spent the last two days reading Suarez’ tough book."

      Very brave of you. I used to be able to do that sort of thing, but I am too delicate for it now. Even reading this article (and I already knew a lot of the material) was hard work.

    • "he published a pamphlet in January, 1914, in which he described the Zionist settlers as carrying on

      a campaign of terror modelled almost on Russian pogrom models."

      But we keep getting told that everything was sunshine and lollipops until the Hebron riots of 1929.

  • UN resolution on settlements is a step back for Palestinians
  • Kerry, interrupted
  • Why Obama waited 8 years to take on Netanyahu
  • The formal end of the two-state solution
    • Given the buffoons that still infest Canberra, it isn't much of a mercy.

    • Penfold, I'm pretty sure you'd be able to cope with an Israeli invasion force. But Israel was able to cause damage to Iran by hitting the country with the Stuxnet virus.

      (Stuxnet also screwed up the Fukushima plant, which is why the Pacific glows in the dark and the fish now have three eyes.)

    • "There is a major war (major bloodletting) just north of israel in syria, and the war against isis ain’t that distant either. "

      It is the same war.

      "The army is an essential element of zionism and an essential rite of passage for the youth of israel."

      That will have to stop. And it can be stopped.

      "The US military fighting across the ocean against forces whose populations are not highly represented in the US military is an entirely different dynamic"

      I seem to recall that the US Army fought passably well against Germans and Italians in spite of having large numbers of soldiers of German and Italian ancestry. Shared ethnicity, and even religion, is seldom a hindrance to making war. The current war in Syria and Iraq shows that.

    • "The military could reflect that "

      Annie, since we have been going on about NZ, I will point out that even a casual glance at the NZ military reveals a lot of Maori and mixed Maori/white faces.

      And I have heard rumours that there are black people in the US military!

      So maybe guarding Ben Gurion airport isn't such a big problem after all.

    • And if that isn't enough to chill your blood, watch a haka by the NZ Army.

    • “There has never been a non-Jewish state there?"

      The Kingdom of Jerusalem wasn't Jewish.

      Most of the time the area has been part of a non-Jewish state, which means that the state was there, just as the Swedish State is in Blekinge.

    • Vietnam, too.

    • 'Ahead of the vote, Prime Minister Netanyahu warned New Zealand that its support of the resolution was “a declaration of war,”'

      Expect dangerous cyber attacks on New Zealand.

  • Hear O Israel these parting truths -- John Kerry
    • "You have transferred into the West Bank, the future homeland of the Palestinian people,"

      The current "homeland" is, of course, all of Palestine.

    • "Palestinian settlement put Jews in the position of dominating others by power alone, rather than cultural renewal and a dialogical exchange."

      He wanted Jews to dominate others, but would have preferred dominating by cultural renewal and a dialogical exchange?

  • Israeli hysteria over UN vote is solidifying country's new status, as a rogue state
  • One-state solution gets fairer shake in a NY synagogue than it gets in NY Times or MSNBC
    • "The Israel national police that operate out of the West Bank are– terrible. "

      What about those that operate in the West Bank?

  • Scenes from a neoconservative meltdown
  • Israel's political left also condemns the UN's anti-settlement resolution
    • "which will play havoc (not) with the economies , political stability etc of these poor minion nations. "

      A few of those countries haven't got economies to play havoc with.

    • Oh, I was moved. But I told myself that Talkback would not have committed such an error deliberately, and so, in an uncharacteristic moment of generosity, I decided to let it pass.

      I also allowed an unconnected "because" to go uncensured. Think of it as a touch of Christmas spirit.

    • "Because I don’t understand why countries with a Christian majority don’t even try to invade and occupy Jerusalem to make sure, that their citizens have free access to holy cites. "

      They tried that some time ago.

  • Netanyahu accuses Obama of betraying 'commitment' to Israel and initiating U.N. resolution
    • "Most diplomats think Netanyahu is an asshole."

      Not British and Australian diplomats. They think he is an arsehole.

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