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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Names:
"Miller, Abrams both say settlement pressure misguided" (June 22, 2009)
link to blogs.jta.org
Check it out: "liberal Zionist" Aaron David Miller in bed with neoconservative Elliott Abrams in obstructing criticism of Israeli settlements by the Obama administration.
The phrase "Likud mole inside the Democratic Party" comes to mind.
BEGIN ARTICLE
TITLE OU raps Obama on settlements
PUBLICATION JTA
DATE June 2, 2009
URL link to jta.org
BEGIN BODY
END BODY
END ARTICLE
The Orthodox Union: key leaders of the Jewish religious establishment (that is, of Orthodox Judaism). Did they have any allies working within the Obama administration, perhaps at high levels? We need the social graph.
To explore this issue further, Google [site:jta.org obama settlements]:
link to google.com
"Full Text of Letter from Ronald S. Lauder to President Obama"
link to worldjewishcongress.org
Ronald Lauder: pro-Israel billionaire, president of the World Jewish Congress, one of the most powerful string-pullers in the Democratic Party.
Focus on pro-Israel billionaires; follow the money; data mine their financial influence within both the Democratic and Republican Parties.
There is no conceivable way that any American president can defy a cabal of pro-Israel billionaires without being attacked by their powerful network of allies and paid tools in the mainstream media, the US Congress, etc. Obama knows the score. He is boxed in by the Israel lobby.
An especially well-researched and fact-filled post -- and almost unbelievable, despite everything we have learned about the settlements program for decades now.
To understand where Ben Shapiro is coming from, be sure to read this:
"An Open Letter to American Jews"
link to townhall.com
Dan Crowther,
One presumes that you have noticed that many members of the American political establishment, power elite and national security community have lined up in strong support of Chuck Hagel and are furious about the attacks on Hagel?
jon s,
This is the same question I just addressed to yonah fredman:
To what degree is your understanding of and emotional attachment to Israel and Zionism grounded in your upbringing in Judaism and the Torah?
Do you see Zionism as being the natural and organic expression of Judaism? How do most Jewish Israelis and Jewish Zionists that you know think about this issue? Is their Zionism grounded in Judaism?
Again, I am trying to fully and clearly understand your views, not challenge, confront or debate them. So relax.
Thanks
yonah fredman,
My following remarks are not made with a confrontational attitude or in the spirit of trying to pursue a "debate" or win an intellectual argument. I am just trying to fully understand your take on the role of Judaism in Zionism. I want to know about what *you* think, not what I think or what I think you should think.
To what degree is your understanding of and emotional attachment to Israel and Zionism grounded in your upbringing in Judaism and the Torah?
Do you see Zionism as being the natural and organic expression of Judaism? How do most Jewish Israelis and Jewish Zionists that you know think about this issue? Is their Zionism grounded in Judaism?
I would also be curious to get the viewpoint of jon s on this issue or that of any other committed Zionists who are reading this.
Thanks
Annie,
Trying to engage in rational debate with people who have been deeply indoctrinated in irrational cult ideologies and mythologies can be unbelievably frustrating. It's like bashing one's head against a stone wall. I feel your pain.
But the effort must be made, and in some cases minds can be reached.
Enlightened people have mastered the art of deprogramming themselves with regard to their childhood indoctrination in various religious ideologies. It requires intense intellectual effort, a strong curiosity about the world and an independent spirit. For some people, those hurdles are simply too high.
Believe me, I get why many political activists are convinced that only methods like BDS will achieve significant progress in moving the needle on American Mideast and Israeli policies -- coercion rather than rational argument.
The civil rights movement in the United States largely succeeded through political activism and coercive pressure, not through "fair, open and well-informed debate." Sometimes you've got to get down in the trenches. That may be where Phil's head is at now, and I respect that.
James Canning,
Many liberal Zionists have been arguing that Israel should get out of the West Bank for decades now, while not lifting a finger to make that happen or in many cases deliberately obstructing or sabotaging efforts to achieve that outcome. Their words don't match up with their deeds.
Religious Zionists are much more committed to realizing their vision of biblical Greater Israel than liberal Zionists are to realizing their vision of a two-state solution.
And this is why I think we now need to direct our intellectual fire at liberal Zionists, not neoconservatives, if our goal is to produce a fair and just Mideast peace settlement.
(In truth, I don't think there is a snowball's chance in hell at this point to salvage the two-state solution.)
Added note: I think Barack Obama and Joe Biden have been perfectly sincere in their desire to oppose the expansion of Israeli settlements. But they learned early on during their first term that any effort to pursue effective policies to stop the settlements would be met with overpowering counterforce by many wealthy and powerful "liberal Zionists" within the Democratic Party (like billionaire Ronald Lauder and Chuck Schumer).
Barack Obama is totally boxed in on the settlements issue by the dominating presence of the Israel lobby within the Democratic Party. No doubt he is intensely frustrated at being politically hogtied. Republican George H.W. Bush expressed the same frustration during his term.
The Israel lobby is able to control any American president through a wide range of coercive instruments and tools all across the political spectrum.
Why would anyone expect liberal Zionist John Kerry to cross the agenda of the liberal Zionist billionaires who financially dominate the Democratic Party?
Their consistent policy all along has been to obstruct or sabotage the application of any meaningful American pressure on the Israeli government with regard to its openly declared policy of building biblical Greater Israel.
Expect nothing but evasions and doubletalk from Kerry concerning Israel's ever-expanding settlements in "Judea and Samaria."
The standard liberal Zionist formula: express high-minded sentiments about achieving a Middle East peace agreement while not lifting a finger to make that agreement happen. They are running interference for the Israeli settlement movement and biblical Greater Israelists behind a cloud of empty and misleading rhetoric.
Wow -- look at those numbers. Lists can tell you what is really going on -- collections of hard datapoints that tell the true tale.
The Israel lobby has purchased the services of the US Congress on behalf of the Israeli government. Many members of US Congress are paid performers in a melodrama that has been scripted for them, often down to every last word.
Annie,
How do you identify yourself in terms of ethnicity and religion? To what religion did you receive the greatest exposure growing up?
Me: Anglo-Irish, Roman Catholic by upbringing, currently humanist, theosophist, transhumanist and Americanist (in Thomas Paine/Enlightenment terms). Also progressive libertarian politically.
I received a great deal of exposure to Roman Catholicism, of course, but have also been exposed in depth to quite a few other religions (Judaism, Islam, Unitarian Universalism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.) through study and friendships.
Regarding the innate preciousness of human beings that you discussed earlier: one good takeaway from Roman Catholicism -- the belief that each and every human being is equally precious, cutting across all national and ethnic boundaries. That stuck with me -- a universalist outlook on the world.
dimadok,
Actually, what is Annie's ethnic and religious background?
It is helpful for us to understand what cultural conditioning and biases we all bring to the Great Mideast debates. Phil has been refreshingly frank and intellectually honest in analyzing his own cultural conditioning -- he has set a laudable standard for all of us, from all ethnic and religious backgrounds, to match.
Regarding my own ethnic and cultural background: Anglo-Irish by ethnicity, Roman Catholic by upbringing, currently progressive libertarian and humanist by choice. My current ideological/cultural framework explains why I oppose ethnic and religious nationalism across the board and without special exceptions.
Hostage,
What a pity that Judt, Kovel, Bauman and Sfard have had so little influence on the Conference of Presidents, AIPAC, the ADL, the AJC, the Israeli government, the US Congress, the American mainstream media, the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform establishments, etc. They lack powerful billionaire backers like Sheldon Adelson, Haim Saban, Mort Zuckerman, Bruce Kovner, Bernard Marcus, Irving Moskowitz, Rupert Murdoch, Lev Leviev, etc.
During the last decade or two they have lost, not gained, influence in Israel and among the worldwide Jewish establishment. Look at all the key trendlines and indicators. Crunch the numbers with a bit of computational social science.
Keeping in mind Phil's editorial tastes:
In-depth discussions about all aspects of religious Zionism are always welcome here:
link to friendfeed.com
In-depth discussions about all aspects of the Semantic Web and list-based knowledge processing technologies are always welcome here:
link to friendfeed.com
MRW,
I saw Bill Maher's remark on Israeli control of the American government last night (on DVR), and noticed that he delivered that line with complete seriousness.
Perhaps Bill is beginning to wake up just a bit on Israeli issues. On most issues he is very sharp.
Jamie Weinstein: yet another overexcited neocon/neolib clone who is all wound up about Israel. All of these characters are perfectly interchangeable -- not a trace of individuality or individualism in them. Standard cult member profile. Completely underwater and undeveloped as rational adults.
MRW,
You're right:
Satire, parody, wit and humor are powerful tools for deflating the delusional beliefs of dogmatic ideologues of all varieties. One strong cutting skit is worth a hundred long-winded theological doctoral dissertations.
But official theological doctrines as defined by Christian, Jewish and Muslim religious authorities do in fact exert considerable influence on the affairs of the world.
Recent generations of many young Jews have been intensely indoctrinated in Jewish religious Zionism by leading authorities from all three major branches of Judaism. Ideas matter. This theological propaganda is producing minds like Ben Shapiro (who is an Orthodox Jew and an extreme religious Zionist).
See:
"An Open Letter to American Jews"
link to townhall.com
Phil,
In the war of ideas, I think that enlightened Christians need to take on Christian fundamentalists, enlightened Muslims need to take on Muslim fundamentalists, enlightened Jews need to take on Jewish fundamentalists, enlightened Roman Catholics need to take on abuses in the Roman Catholic Church, etc.
I also think that enlightened members of all these traditions need to take on religious fundamentalists collectively -- to combine forces and leverage their power. That is my point of view.
Phil,
I have been baffled that we've run into this major disagreement between us because I usually find myself in agreement with you on the finest details of almost every issue.
Reasonable and rational people from all religious and secular traditions critique religious fundamentalism all the time in important books and articles.
The critique of religious Zionism, in both its Jewish and Christian expressions, is especially important, since religious Zionists are driving Greater Israelism and the settlements movement, which is the main obstacle to achieving a Mideast peace agreement.
Disagreements with religious Zionists do not constitute an attack on Judaism or Christianity as a whole. To make that argument is equivalent to claiming that disagreements with Zionism constitute antisemitism and an attack on Jews as a whole.
How has our communication broken down on this issue? I honestly don't get it.
I've stated many times, and with sincerity, that I respect Judaism, Christianity and Islam at their best. The debate here is about the perversion of those traditions by fundamentalists and militant nationalists. I strongly believe that enlightened Christians, Muslims and religious Jews need to join forces and develop an effective opposition to Abrahamic fundamentalists and extremists all across the religious spectrum.
If you would prefer that discussion about these issues not be pursued on Mondoweiss, I will of course respect your wishes, but with a heavy heart -- I think they lie at the heart of everything that is driving the Mideast towards an apocalyptic explosion. I confess: I am wound up about the subject, as are many enlightened Christians and religious Jews (including Marc Ellis, for whom you have provided a major platform on Mondoweiss).
Hostage,
Former high-level CIA officer Philip Giraldi is doing heavy lifting in taking on Old Testament cultists among the Christian spectrum of religious Zionists. See:
article; AUTHOR Philip Giraldi TITLE Towards a Christian Zionist Foreign Policy PUBLICATION Antiwar.com DATE February 14, 2013 URL link to original.antiwar.com
Would anyone be dim or intellectually dishonest enough to construe Philip Giraldi's critique of Christian Zionism to be an attack on Christianity as a whole?
And would it be too much to ask Jewish humanists and Jewish religious progressives to be as vigilant and vigorous in their critique of Jewish religious Zionism as Christians like Philip Giraldi and Andrew Sullivan have been in their critique of Christian Zionism?
While you are arguing the fine points of international law, the Israeli government is pulling the strings of Christian Zionists in pursuit of its own messianic Bible-based ideology. You can witness its handiwork in James Inhofe's attacks on Chuck Hagel.
Hostage,
I've read a few hundred such books, by the very best scholars.
Which five books or authors have most influenced your thinking about Israeli and Mideast politics, Hostage? -- particularly on the big picture issues.
For me: Yehoshofat Harkabi, Karen Armstrong, F.E. Peters, Ehud Sprinzak, Gershom Scholem, Shlomo Avineri, Norman Cantor, Victoria Clark, Amos Elon, Gershom Gorenberg, Yoram Hazony, Elliott Horowitz, David Hirst, Paul Johnson, Ian Lustick, Arie Morgenstern, Israel Shahak, Yuri Slezkine, Edith Zertal, Geoffrey Wheatcroft.
Sorry -- that's more than five, and there are many more. Most of them are leading Jewish thinkers -- they tend to know most about the subject and write most eloquently on these matters.
Hostage,
This is a false statement and misrepresents my views.
My argument all along has been that Jewish anti-Zionists, non-Zionists and progressive Zionists are exerting little or no influence on the Israeli government and the worldwide Jewish establishment -- including the leading oganizational members of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations.
Benjamin Netanyahu and his fellow ethno-religious nationalist ideologues are controlling the conversation about Israel in American politics. The impact of those who share your views -- especially on the US Congress -- is between negligible to none.
Why is this obvious fact of life so difficult to acknowledge?
Perhaps matters will change in the future -- but current political, social, cultural and demographic indicators and trendlines in Israel do not suggest that major change in a progressive direction will occur during our lifetime. Religious Zionists are on track to acquire more power in Israel in the future, not lose power.
What this means is that it will probably be impossible to stop biblical Greater Israelists from setting the world on fire.
Hostage,
Not only have I repeatedly acknowledged the presence of progressive and humanist strains in Jewish civilization many times, I rely heavily on progressive and humanist Jewish thinkers for my analysis of Israeli and Mideast politics.
But here is the problem: the Israeli and Jewish establishments -- the Israeli government, the Conference of Presidents, AIPAC, the leaders of the mainstream Jewish religious establishment, etc. -- have successfully marginalized Jewish progressives and humanists. In fact, the power of progressives and humanists within the official Jewish establishment continues to decline -- witness the results of the recent Israeli election.
That is a straw man: no one here has ever suggested that "all Judaisms or Zionisms" are "automatically suspect."
Few people condemn all Christians because they think Christian Zionism is an odious ideology or all Muslims because they oppose al-Qaeda or the Taliban.
Annie,
I didn't say that Kahanism represents mainstream American Jewry -- I don't think that. What I have argued is that the Jewish religious establishment has embraced Zionism, and that Zionism continues to pursue the program of building biblical Greater Israel.
With regard to secular Jewish Zionists: all of the leading ones (Moses Hess, Max Nordau, David Ben Gurion, etc.) grounded Zionism in the symbols, archetypes, myths and themes of ancient and classical Judaism. Try Googling [david ben gurion bible]. Clearly this ideological tradition had enormous emotional resonance for them and served as an inspiration and blueprint for the entire Zionist enterprise from the very beginning.
The second hit from Googling [david ben gurion bible]: "David Ben-Gurion -- The Bible is Our Mandate"
link to mailstar.net
The third hit: "Netanyahu Resurrects Ben-Gurion's Bible Study Circle"
By "just" I was trying to communicate that I just read Fallows' statement for the first time.
This sentence couldn't be more clear:
He used the word "religion" in contradistinction to "one ethnic group in the conventional sense."
By the way, see this article from the Times of Israel yesterday:
"Bennett: No Palestine in ‘God-given’ Land of Israel"
A typical comment on the article:
and:
I opened the link and read the entire article carefully.
Fallows said this:
and he said this:
Fallows explicitly described the Israel/Jewish lobby as a *religious* faction -- which in fact it largely is -- comprehending both Judaism and Christian Zionism -- and grounded on a literal reading of the Old Testament.
I also opened and read Phil's article from October 23, 2007 -- 'Perestroika: James Fallows Says “Mainly… Jewish” Faction Pushes for Iran Showdown' -- as usual, it was right on the money -- I wouldn't change a single word.
Did James Fallows just push Judaism to the front and center of the Great Mideast Debates? -- "mainly of one RELIGION."
By the way, in reviewing the history of the discussion of this volatile subject (the connections between Judaism and Zionism) on Mondoweiss, I turned up this interesting article by Phil from September 6, 2010:
"Neoconservatism is rightly seen as a ‘current of Jewish culture’"
link to mondoweiss.net
The article forthrightly addresses the issue of Judaism in inspiring Jewish religious Zionists like Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir.
Trying to construct a "Berlin Wall" between Judaism and Zionism is not a project that has the slightest chance of success in the real world, in which intelligent people pay attention to what is really going on and are not easily cowed and intimidated from telling the truth.
Nevada Ned,
Confederate and Zionist values
Southern Confederate culture is, essentially, Zionist -- messianic ethnic nationalist and grounded in Old Testament cultism concerning ethnic supremacism, mystical territorialism, aggressive militarism, etc.
Most leading Christian Zionists have emerged from this culture -- this is why they enjoy such warm relations with Jewish Zionists (like Ed Koch and Benjamin Netanyahu) and the Israel lobby. This is all about a shared ideology.
Christian Zionists cite the Old Testament much more often than the New Testament. At the core, their beliefs are radically anti-Christian and even anti-American -- remember, these are the kind of reactionary ideologues who triggered the US Civil War and defended slavery on biblical (Old Testament) authority.
See Kevin Phillips' "American Theocracy" for an in-depth exploration of this topic:
c[BOOK AUTHOR Kevin Phillips TITLE American Theocracy: The Peril and Politics of Radical Religion, Oil, and Borrowed Money in the 21st Century DATE 2007 PUBLISHER Penguin Books AMAZON link to amazon.com ]
Phillips has this cultural and political phenomenon figured out and nailed down good and proper.
The Confederate spirit is back with a vengeance -- and it is being egged on and manipulated by the Israeli government and Northern Jewish neoconservatives with fancy Ivy League degrees.
The entire universe revolves around the endless travails of Israel.
American,
Being a little bit ethnic nationalist is like being a little bit pregnant -- once you are in a bit, you are in whole hog.
Looking forward, liberal Zionists will be facing a world of grief as they try to straddle two political philosophies that are miles apart -- radically in contradiction, in fact. They need to get their heads straight on these matters and figure out why their mental wires are so tangled and dysfunctional.
I attribute most of their problems to childhood ideological indoctrination that they are not strong enough to shake off.
Annie,
"do the donkey" -- perfect. That could go viral.
Project: data mine SNL from its first show to the present for comparative number of satirical skits and critical remarks on African Americans, Arabs, Christians, Irish Americans, Israelis, Italian Americans, Jews, Latinos, Mormons, Muslims, Roman Catholics, etc.
It would be interesting to peruse the summary chart and data visualization.
I stopped watching SNL a long time ago and have no idea about its general political bent these days, if it has one.
Does it have any political redlines? What are they?
How exactly did this video get released to the Web? Did Michaels approve?
Lorne Michaels is almost certainly a liberal Zionist -- and he is serving as an Israeli gatekeeper in American popular culture.
Annie,
This is why Mondoweiss rocks: it generates vigorous and intelligent discussion and debate. Its readers are engaged. They are paying attention.
Jerry Slater,
One can't judge the toxicity or criminality of any particular political or ideological movement until it has completely run its course.
How many people had Nazism killed as of, say, 1935?
What is clear is that Israel fits into the template of historical messianic ethnic nationalist movements -- which includes Germany, Italy, Japan, South Africa, the Confederacy, etc. in their ethnic nationalist phases.
And Israel has promised to unleash the Samson Option on the world if it is backed into a corner -- and it is backing itself into a corner as we speak.
Just to be clear about this: one presumes that NormanF isn't Norman Finkelstein?
Compared to liberal Zionists, neoconservatives are exemplars of intellectual honesty -- they are perfectly upfront about their ethnic nationalist agenda.
Liberal Zionists are ethnic nationalists who are pretending to be progressive universalists -- clearly ethnic nationalism is their core ideological driver. They selectively promote (manipulate) progressive universalism among ethnic outgroups to advance their self-interested ethnic nationalist agenda.
This is the real conundrum: most liberal Zionists aggressively oppose ethnic and religious nationalism everywhere in the world except in Israel. At the same time they aggressively promote and defend the expression of Jewish ethnic and religious nationalism not only in Israel, but everywhere in the world (especially in the United States -- see AIPAC and dozens of organizational components of the Israel lobby).
Cognitive dissonance doesn't begin to cover it.
What makes them tick? What is their real center of gravity -- reactionary ethnic nationalism or progressive universalism?
Are they using progressive universalism in the Diaspora in a cynical and manipulative way to advance a narrow ethnic nationalist agenda? To weaken the ethnic and religious competition while strengthening themselves?
According to most liberal Zionists, progressive universalism is good for all ethnic and religious groups in the Diaspora except for Jewish Zionists. And reactionary ethnic nationalism is especially good for Jews in Israel.
Bill Maher reveals this irrational and indefensible cognitive dissonance in spades -- on the one hand he ridicules white identity politics while on the other hand rhapsodizing over Jewish identity politics. He advocates both positions with the utmost self-righteousness and "moral" passion.
Liberal Zionists like Robert Siegel, Bill Maher, Rachel Maddow and a few hundred others like them (most of them in the Democratic Party) are the most intellectually confused (or intellectually dishonest) political group ever to emerge on the American scene. One should be relentless in pointing out (and, yes, ridiculing) their blatant self-interested self-contradictions.
Back to what makes them tick: one suspects that some of them have been indoctrinated in the biblical ideology that Jewish nationalism is the only nationalism that really counts -- "the nations" constitute a bloblike collection of inferior and inconsequential peoples. Many Northern liberal Zionists (like the recently deceased Ed Koch) hold views about the world that are as primitive as any Southern Christian Zionist or neo-Confederate.
I have often posed the question to pro-Israel activists here: what ethnic and religious nationalist movements around the world do you support other than your own? One never receives a straight answer. These people don't add up.
I was impressed by how Carl Levin handled this proceeding.
Hagel confirmed -- the Israel lobby just took a huge hit.
There is not a single comment yet on the live feed at Raw Story.
Right Web on Ted Cruz and Sheldon Adelson
link to rightweb.irc-online.org
Sheldon Adelson got what he paid for.
Ted Cruz: hyperexcited fanaticism on behalf of the Israeli government and the Israel lobby. (Watching the live feed.) He is really wound up. Bill Nelson is now taking Cruz to the woodshed.
North Korea just exploded a nuclear device and all many of these US Congress members can talk about, under the prodding of the Israel lobby, is Iran, Iran, Iran, Iran, Iran. They are not looking out for the American interest.
James Inhofe: once again, Israel, Israel, Israel, Israel, Israel.
Annie,
Damned right -- hit them in their pockets and bottom line. That gets their attention.
Annie,
One often engages in discussions with the purpose of mutually clarifying one's understanding of issues and adding to one's collection of facts and documentation. Hostage and Shmuel get that.
Hundreds of leading experts and scholars on Mideast politics, like Philip Giraldi, have worked hard to develop an analytical understanding of the ideological roots of contemporary Zionism with the aim of helping the world at large to comprehend precisely what they are dealing with -- and to help mobilize political action based on that understanding.
With regard to focusing on international legal issues, of course this is crucial -- all of these lines of analysis and activism need to be pursued simultaneously and in combination.
Annie,
I engage with people who I think will provide substantive and useful pushback. I've had extended and useful conversations with Hostage and Shmuel on the subject of religious Zionism.
With regard to Yonah Fredman, who remarked:
I think it would be fair to say that his Zionism is largely the product of his exposure to Judaism -- and this is true of most Jewish Zionists -- they ground their Zionism in Judaism.
I've tried debating him before on these issues, but he won't engage. He steers clear of me.
There is an obvious first question to ask of Jewish religious Zionists: is any human being obligated to accept the religious beliefs of any particular group? Are Jews obligated to accept the beliefs of Roman Catholics or Muslims on any particular theological or political issue?
The obvious answer is, no, and they know that. That is why they are difficult to engage in rational debate. They only thrive among fellow zealots and true believers -- inside the cult bubble.
MRW,
You just made my point, not yours. Both Adelson and Murdoch are emotional pro-Israel militants.
You need to come up the names of Fortune 500 CEOs and billionaires who are agitating for an Iran War who are NOT Zionists. Who are they? Warren Buffett? Bill Gates? Nope.
The logic here is elementary.
MRW,
I don't understand your point. Please explain.
There is a great deal of evidence that Rachel Abrams and her husband (Elliott) are Jewish religious Zionists. Perhaps you have some evidence that her mind is preoccupied with financial capitalism.
Elliott Abrams has played a huge role in forging American Mideast policy.
Many financial capitalists don't think about Zionism, Israel or Mideast politics at all. Nor are they rabid Islamophobes or anti-Arab racists. Nor are they ethnic nationalists of any variety.
Many financial capitalists are Europeans, Arabs, Chinese, Japanese, etc. -- people who haven't the slightest interest in getting involved in Mideast wars that are motivated by Zionism and Jewish ethno-religious nationalism.
Annie,
Well, I am trying to address your questions to the best of my ability.
Let me take a crack at this:
I think we need to engage in vigorous dialogue with the theological leaders of Christian Zionism and Jewish religious Zionism (almost the entire Jewish religious establishment these days) with the objective of persuading them that their views are wrong, dangerous and self-destructive.
If we can succeed in moving the leaders of religious Zionism to a more rational position, their flocks will follow. I am suggesting a top-down, highly leveraged approach to pushing American Mideast and Israeli policies in a more sane and progressive direction, in combination with bottom-up approaches based on political activism and BDS.
If this reply still doesn't satisfy you, be sure to let me know.
Annie,
Did you notice that yonah fredman just wrote the following?
How would you describe the ideology that is driving his political vision and that of many pro-Israel activists and militants?
MRW,
I think I do understand what you mean by financial capitalists. Even thieves among that gang are not stupid enough to pursue foreign policies that are inimical to their own best interests.
Many oil industry leaders opposed the Iraq War because they thought it would be "bad for business." The Iraq War was driven primarily by the neoconservative and Christian Zionist wings of the Israel lobby -- and they were motivated primarily by an irrational ideology -- Zionism -- and in many cases religious Zionism. (Many leading neocons, like Elliott Abrams, are Jewish religious Zionists, and their hatred of Islam is inspired by that ideology. Would you describe Rachel Abrams as being primarily a financial capitalist or a Zionist?)
Annie,
I think Mondoweiss should pursue discussions on Mideast politics from many points of view and analytic frameworks, including the colonialist approach, the religious ideological approach, the international legal approach, etc. All of these lines of analysis provide valuable insights into what is really going on and they are in fact richly entangled -- not easy to neatly separate out into clear conceptual boxes.
I encounter the religious/ideological line of analysis every day in the Jewish and Israeli mainstream media, and among leading Mideast scholars -- much more so than Chomskyite analysis, in fact. I can easily pull up dozens of articles written from this point of view that have been published in Haaretz, the Jerusalem Post, Forward, the Times of Israel, Israel National News, etc. during just the last month. These issues are on my mind and on the minds of many other people who are well-informed about Mideast and Israeli politics.
You have your point of view on these matters; I have mine; MRW has his; Hostage has his; Dan Crowther has his; and so on. We are all individuals with unique and sometimes conflicting viewpoints here, not members of a unified political party or a single ideological group. We all have much to learn from one another. I have certainly learned a great deal from you.
As you know, I happen to think that fair, open and informed debate is the heart and soul of the democratic process and of human progress in general.
I am trying to understand WHY Chuck Hagel's opponents, like James Inhofe, are so emotionally excited and fanatical in their campaign to destroy him. Many of them are Christian Zionists (religious Zionists), not pragmatic imperialists and colonialists. I think we need to understand the irrational ideology that is driving their holy crusade. We need to rebut and discredit that ideology.
Would you prefer that the kind of issues that Philip Giraldi raises here:
article; AUTHOR Philip Giraldi TITLE Towards a Christian Zionist Foreign Policy PUBLICATION Antiwar.com DATE February 14, 2013 URL link to original.antiwar.com
not be discussed on Mondoweiss? I happen to be a big fan of both Philip Weiss and Philip Giraldi (the two Phils). I try to pay attention to the best minds on Mideast politics from a wide variety of viewpoints and perspectives. Each of them is seeing an important part of the big picture.
Every other leading publication and blog on Mideast and Israeli politics addresses this issue (the role of religion in Zionism) on a regular basis. I would be disappointed to see Mondoweiss narrow its vision on these matters, but Phil is certainly free to impose whatever editorial policies on Mondoweiss that please him -- every publication and blog does that.
MRW,
Nearly all the leading agitators for an Iran War that I've noticed have been pro-Israel militants, like Sheldon Adelson and Rupert Murdoch. Among those members of the American power elite who are not pro-Israel militants, I have noticed strong opposition to going to war against Iran. The American national security community has been especially hostile to all the warmongering propaganda flowing from the Israel lobby.
I can't think of any Fortune 500 CEOs or billionaires who have been clamoring for a war against Iran who are not pro-Israel militants. Perhaps you can come up with a few names to support your theory that "financial capitalism" in general in responsible for spearheading the campaign for an Iran War.
MRW,
I want to emphasize that I think you are raising extremely important issues about financial capitalism -- I agree with you about its destructive effects.
But what precisely does it have to do with Israeli and American Mideast policies, which are the focus of discussion on Mondoweiss?
What would be the effects of an Israeli/American war against Iran on the American and global economy and on the fortunes of financial capitalists?
Why would financial capitalists be more concerned about non-existent Iranian nuclear threats to Israel than existing North Korean nuclear threats to the United States?
There are ideological factors in play here that have little to do with pure financial capitalism.
Annie,
Since Israeli leaders and pro-Israel leaders in American politics regularly invoke Judaism and Old Testament themes as a justification for Israeli policies -- especially the settlements movement and the grand plan to build biblical Greater Israel -- how is it possible NOT to discuss Judaism in relation to Zionism? That position makes no sense at all.
Furthermore, the mainstream Jewish religious establishment -- the leaders of contemporary Judaism -- have themselves merged Judaism and Zionism into a single ideology in recent decades.
I respect Judaism at its best, as I respect Christianity and Islam at their best. But I think that enlightened Jews, Christians and Muslims need to take a strong stand against the perversion of their religions by violent nationalists, fundamentalists and extremists.
Hasn't this been one of the main themes of Marc Ellis, whose writings Mondoweiss has prominently featured? Jewish visionaries like Ellis are trying to reclaim authentic Judaism from Jewish religious Zionists. So far they have been fighting a losing battle.
I don't recall anyone on Mondoweiss ever objecting to the critique of the perversion of Christianity by Christian Zionists -- and that topic comes up frequently here. They don't immediately jump to the false conclusion that a critique of Christian Zionism is an attack on Christianity as a whole.
Annie,
I think the main line of argument now should be directed at self-professed liberal Zionists, progressive Zionists and anti-Zionists who are providing cover for neoconservatives, neoliberals, Christian Zionists and the entire Greater Israel enterprise of ever-expanding settlements in biblical "Judea and Samaria."
How are they providing cover? By obstructing a serious investigation into and discussion about the ideological and organizational drivers of Greater Israelism (the settlements movement) within Israeli and Jewish culture.
There is quite a lot of that going around. Rachel Maddow and Bill Maher are good examples.
Bill Maher, for example, claims to be a fearless intellectual warrior against religious fundamentalism, but he clams up when it comes to discussing the role of important streams of Judaism in inspiring and propping up the on-going and apparently unstoppable project of the Israeli government to build biblical Greater Israel.
These "progressive Zionists" have a great deal of influence on American culture on the left and seem to be playing the same double game as old school "liberal Zionists" like Chuck Schumer, Dennis Ross, Aaron David Miller and Martin Indyk in the Democratic Party.
The neocons by now have been seriously bloodied (not to mention thoroughly humiliated by the failure of the Iraq War) and are in full retreat. Still a threat -- but not as much a problem as liberal and progressive Zionists, who are more skilled at putting a pretty face on Zionism and making themselves presentable to reasonable people.
Annie,
I notice that you regularly put the phrase "ancient Judaism" in quotes as if it were an odd or quaint phrase.
Its meaning is quite simple: it refers to any aspects of the Old Testament that are used by Jews or Christians to justify Israeli behavior or Zionist ideology. One sees the invocation of ancient Judaism all the time by Jews and Christians, both religious and secular. The language of the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is loaded up with myths, symbols, archetypes and themes from ancient Judaism and the Old Testament (or Torah).
The reliance on ancient Judaism and the Old Testament by leading Zionists like Netanyahu seems like a pretty big issue in contemporary Israeli and Zionist politics to me. I can't think of a more important issue. Romantic beliefs about ancient Judaism are the main driver of the settlements movement which is turning Israel into an international pariah.