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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
playforpalestine,
BEGIN ARTICLE
AUTHOR Allan C. Brownfeld
TITLE Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel
PUBLICATION Washington Report on Middle East Affairs
DATE March 2000
URL link to washington-report.org
BEGIN QUOTE
The authors point out that “…the adherents of Jewish fundamentalism in Israel oppose equality for all citizens, especially non-Jews.” The respected Israeli sociologist Baruch Kimmerling, citing evidence from a study conducted by other scholars, declared: “The value of the [Jewish] religion, at least in its Orthodox and nationalistic form that prevails in Israel, cannot be squared with democratic values. No other variable—neither nationality, nor attitudes about security, nor social or economic values, nor ethnic descent and education—so influences the attitudes of [Israeli] Jews against democratic values as does religiosity.”
What particularly concerns the authors is the total contempt which Jewish fundamentalists show toward non-Jews. Rabbi Kook the Elder, the revered father of the messianic tendency of Jewish fundamentalism, said, “The difference between a Jewish soul and souls of non-Jews—all of them in all different levels—is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle.”
Rabbi Kook’s entire teaching, which is followed devoutly by, among others, those who have led the settler movement on the occupied West Bank, is based upon the Lurianic Cabbala, the school of Jewish mysticism that dominated Judaism from the late16th to the early 19th century. “One of the basic tenets of the Lurianic Cabbala,” the authors write, “is the absolute superiority of the Jewish soul and body over the non-Jewish soul and body. According to the Lurianic Cabbala, the world was created solely for the sake of Jews; the existence of non-Jews was subsidiary. If an influential Christian bishop or Islamic scholar argued that the difference between the superior souls of non-Jews and the inferior souls of Jews was greater than the difference between the human soul and souls of cattle, he would incur the wrath of all and be viewed as an anti-Semite by most Jewish scholars regardless of whatever less meaningful, positive statements he included.”
END QUOTE
END ARTICLE
playforpalestine,
You wrote:
"shneerson did not say this kind of stuff to the best of my knowledge"
You haven't been paying attention:
BEGIN ARTICLE
AUTHOR Allan C. Brownfeld
TITLE Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel
PUBLICATION Washington Report on Middle East Affairs
DATE March 2000
URL link to washington-report.org
BEGIN QUOTE by Rabbi Menachem Schneerson
The difference between a Jewish and a non-Jewish person stems from the common expression: ‘Let us differentiate.’ Thus, we do not have a case of profound change in which a person is merely on a superior level. Rather, we have a case of ‘let us differentiate’ between totally different species. This is what needs to be said about the body: the body of a Jewish person is of a totally different quality from the body of [members] of all nations of the world… A non-Jew’s entire reality is only vanity. It is written, ‘And the strangers shall guard and feed your flocks’ (Isaiah 61:5). The entire creation [of a non-Jew] exists only for the sake of the Jews…
END QUOTE
END ARTICLE
Chabad-Lubavitch (Menachem Schneerson) and Shas (Ovadia Yosef) seem to share the same virulently racist beliefs and attitudes towards non-Jews.
You are being shifty, evasive, slippery and intellectually dishonest on these issues in a way that has become quite familiar to me by now. No one here (certainly not me) has claimed that all Jews, religious or otherwise, hold racist beliefs. But many Jewish religious Zionists do indeed hold such beliefs. And the organized worldwide Jewish community as a whole bears full responsibility for the racist and apartheid policies of the Israeli government in the occupied territories.
I am unclear on this: are you yourself a religious Jew and Jewish religious Zionist? If so, of what type?
What does your handle "playforpalestine" mean?
Terryscott,
You wrote re: Ari Fleischer and Chabad:
"It means he’s a Jew, WJ–guilty until proven innocent. And it’s not antisemitism because there is no such thing.
And you wonder why this site gives Phil bad dreams!"
Do you and wonderingjew know how to use Google? Try Googling [ari fleischer chabad] and you'll get 243,000 results:
link to google.com
Two facts about Fleischer and Chabad:
1. Fleischer was the co-president of Chabad's Capitol Jewish Forum.
2. Fleischer received the Young Leadership Award from the American Friends of Lubavitch in October 2001.
But you assume that Fleischer is being associated with Chabad merely because he is a Jew. Why did you make that assumption? Most Jews have no association with Chabad-Lubavitch.
Wikipedia on Ovadia Yosef:
link to en.wikipedia.org
BEGIN QUOTE
Ovadia Yosef (born September 23, 1920) is the former Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel, a recognised Talmudic scholar and foremost halakhic authority.
He currently serves as the spiritual leader of the Shas political party in the Israeli parliament. His halakhic responsa are highly regarded within Orthodox circles and are considered binding in many Mizrahi communities, among whom he is regarded as "the most important living halachic authority."
END QUOTE
playforpalestine,
Would it be fair to say that Ovadia Yosef is a more formidable authority on Judaism (certainly in Israel) than you are?
BEGIN ARTICLE
TITLE Yosef: Gentiles exist only to serve Jews
AUTHOR Jonah Mandel
PUBLICATION Jerusalem Post
DATE October 18, 2010
BEGIN QUOTE
The sole purpose of non-Jews is to serve Jews, according to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the head of Shas’s Council of Torah Sages and a senior Sephardi adjudicator.
“Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel,” he said in his weekly Saturday night sermon on the laws regarding the actions non-Jews are permitted to perform on Shabbat.
According to Yosef, the lives of non-Jews in Israel are safeguarded by divinity, to prevent losses to Jews.
“In Israel, death has no dominion over them... With gentiles, it will be like any person – they need to die, but [God] will give them longevity. Why? Imagine that one’s donkey would die, they’d lose their money.
This is his servant... That’s why he gets a long life, to work well for this Jew,” Yosef said.
“Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat.
That is why gentiles were created,” he added.
END QUOTE
END ARTICLE
I don't think that Yosef and Schneerson represent the views of all religious Jews (obviously not), but they represent the views of a significant and influential sector of religious Jews. One can easily turn up hundreds of similar quotes from right-wing religious Zionists.
BEGIN ARTICLE
AUTHOR Allan C. Brownfeld
TITLE Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel
PUBLICATION Washington Report on Middle East Affairs
DATE March 2000
URL link to washington-report.org
BEGIN QUOTE
Rabbi Schneerson always supported Israeli wars and opposed any retreat. In 1974 he strongly opposed the Israeli withdrawal from the Suez area. He promised Israel divine favors if it persisted in occupying the land. After his death, thousands of his Israeli followers played an important role in the election victory of Binyamin Netanyahu. Among the religious settlers in the occupied territories, the Chabad Hassids constitute one of the most extreme groups. Baruch Goldstein, the mass murderer of Palestinians, was one of them.
END QUOTE
END ARTICLE
BEGIN ARTICLE
AUTHOR Allan C. Brownfeld
TITLE Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel
PUBLICATION Washington Report on Middle East Affairs
DATE March 2000
URL link to washington-report.org
BEGIN QUOTE BY Rabbi Menachem Schneerson
The difference between a Jewish and a non-Jewish person stems from the common expression: ‘Let us differentiate.’ Thus, we do not have a case of profound change in which a person is merely on a superior level. Rather, we have a case of ‘let us differentiate’ between totally different species. This is what needs to be said about the body: the body of a Jewish person is of a totally different quality from the body of [members] of all nations of the world… A non-Jew’s entire reality is only vanity. It is written, ‘And the strangers shall guard and feed your flocks’ (Isaiah 61:5). The entire creation [of a non-Jew] exists only for the sake of the Jews…
END QUOTE
END ARTICLE
Questions for any Chabad-Lubavitch members here:
1. Christian Zionism: pro or con?
2. Dubai assassination: pro or con?
3. Greater Israel: pro or con?
4. Iran War: pro or con?
5. Iraq War: pro or con?
6. Islamophobia: pro or con?
7. Israeli settlements: pro or con?
8. Jewish ethnic nationalism: pro or con?
9. Jewish religious nationalism: pro or con?
10. Jewish segregation: pro or con?
11. Likud: pro or con?
12. Meir Kahane: pro or con?
13. Mossad black ops: pro or con?
14. neoconservatism: pro or con?
15. Operation Cast Lead: pro or con?
16. targeted assassinations: pro or con?
17. torture: pro or con?
How does Chabad-Lubavitch profile out?
Ari Fleischer, a leading member of the Bush/Cheney administration, is a member of Chabad-Lubavitch. Billionaire Lev Leviev is a member. I am trying to figure this issue out.
Would any Chabadniks here care to comment on this quote from Allan Nadler? Nadler is a Harvard Ph.D.
BEGIN ARTICLE
AUTHOR Allan Nadler
TITLE Last Exit to Brooklyn: The Lubavitchers' Powerful and Preposterous Messianism
PUBLICATION The New Republic
DATE May 4, 1992
URL link to drew.edu
BEGIN QUOTE
Gentile souls are of a completely different and inferior order. They are totally evil, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Consequently, references to gentiles in Rabbi Shneur Zalman's teachings are invariably invidious. . . . Their material abundance derives from supernal refuse. Indeed, they themselves derive from refuse, which is why they are more numerous than the Jews, as the pieces of chaff outnumber the kernels. . . . All Jews were innately good, all gentiles innately evil. Jews were the pinnacle of creation and served the Creator, gentiles its nadir and worshiped the heavenly hosts.
... Moreover, this characterization of gentiles as being inherently evil, as being spiritually as well as biologically inferior to Jews, has not in any way been revised in later Habad writing.
END QUOTE
END ARTICLE
Alan Nadler email address: anadler@drew.edu
Alan Nadler telephone: (973)408-3222
It's interesting that Phil on January 8, 2011 cited this quote from Moshe Greenberg which argues that "the main stream of Jewish thought is permeated by genetic spiritual superiority of Jews over non-jews, disconcertingly reminiscent of racist notions of our time":
link to mondoweiss.net
"What emerged for me, from the study of the first chapters [of Sefer Hatanya, the central works of the Chabad ultra-Orthodox organization] was the discovery that the main stream of Jewish thought is permeated by genetic spiritual superiority of Jews over non-jews, disconcertingly reminiscent of racist notions of our time. Living in Israel for the past twenty years in a Jewish majority that is no more sensitive to the feelings of minorities than Gentile majorities are ... [with] Jews in their midst, I have come to realize the vitality of Jewish racist notions, and I am more than ever convinced that the hold Judaism will have on this and future generations will be gravely impaired unless these notions are neutralized by an internal reordering of traditional values."
What does Phil think about this quote now?
My own impression from browsing around in the literature about Chabad is that it is a racist movement. Most of the Chabadniks I have encountered have also been Kahanists.
But wait: the racism of Chabad may even be too much for some Kahanists -- see these two JIDF tweets:
JIDF: . @ElSmoocho Chabad seems to claim that Jews have a "spiritual soul" and "animal soul" whereas non-Jews only have "animal souls"
JIDF: . @MasonRabbi By contrast, what IS clear: Chabad teaches that the Jewish soul is somehow different, or better, than the non-Jewish soul.
(As I recall, JIDF objected to these racist beliefs in other tweets -- I'll look them up later.)
lyn117: "Be glad they didn’t make you drink poison, like Socrates."
One could spin an interesting fictional plot in which Mossad engineered this event for Phil's "benefit."
Shmuel,
Insightful comment.
As I read Phil's colorful account (great writing, Phil!), it was obvious to me that he was being manipulated, hustled and psychologically coerced by classical cult methods. In this case we are dealing with an actual ethno-religious nationalist cult -- not something that merely resembles a cult.
I've been in these kinds of environments myself and the staging was familiar. Bathe the target in a feeling of warm fellowship to lower his or her defenses (the wine obviously helped) and gently apply pressure. There is always the underlying threat in these kinds of situations that if you don't abandon your mind and soul to the cult you may suffer severe punishments.
Hey -- this is what Goldstoning is all about. Phil just endured a small Goldstoning moment.
Barack Obama spoke: "So when efforts are made to equate Zionism to racism, we reject them."
Questions for Barack Obama:
1. How can a state which supports and funds illegal JEWISH-ONLY settlements on occupied territories be anything but racist?
2. Would you have a problem if the United States officially pursued preferential policies in any domain for WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants) only?
3. Should Germany and France officially declare themselves as the states of Christian ethnic Germans and Christian ethnic French respectively? Create housing at government expense for Christian ethnic Germans and Christian ethnic French only?
4. Have you studied the many racist statements that have been made over the years by many Zionist leaders? By Theodor Herzl? By David Ben-Gurion? By Ovadia Yosef?
5. Have you thought about these issues at all in a serious way? Are you capable of discussing and debating them? Or do you just play along to get along?
Anyone who does not take a serious interest in American foreign policy, and Mideast policy in particular, should not be running to serve in the US Senate. Politicians who take their marching orders from AIPAC are not looking out for the best interests of Americans.
Western Sky,
You wrote:
"I don't think Warren cares about Iran. Or Israel. Or Palestine.
Her issues are economic fairness, punishing those responsible for bank and Wall Street fraud, and other domestic concerns."
Does Elizabeth Warren understand that disastrous US Mideast policies (like the Iraq War, the Afghanistan War, a possible Iran War, etc.) are capable of wrecking the American economy and undermining all the domestic social programs she cares about? Why isn't she addressing these important issues in a forthright and informed way? Is she not a serious person?
Does Elizabeth Warren understand that the same gang of neocons and neolibs appears to control both Wall Street and the military-industrial complex? That there is a connection between these endless foreign wars, Wall Street corruption and the decline of the American economy and quality of life?
One fears that the answer to all these questions is, no. She is as naive and ignorant about foreign policy as Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann. The alternative: she is willing to go along with AIPAC to get ahead and without regard for the negative consequences for the American people.
Elizabeth Warren is a huge disappointment, but no surprise -- many "progressive" Democratic women seem to be pro-war fascists and racists when it comes to Israel -- Madeleine Albright, Susan Estrich, Hillary Clinton, Ann Lewis, Nancy Pelosi, Jane Harman, Dianne Feinstein, etc. Their self-contradictions trouble them not in the least.
Google [madeleine albright iraq children worth it]. Elizabeth Warren walks in the Democratic tradition of Madeleine Albright.
The truth of the matter is that Likud and AIPAC, through an elaborate system of carrots and sticks, bribes and threats, have acquired close to absolute control over the Democratic Party. Democrats need to go along with the Israel lobby to get along.
The Israel lobby is its own worst enemy.
The methods it uses to crush free speech and punish political opponents are often heavy-handed, tyrannical, bullying, sinister, coercive, smothering, overbearing, dictatorial, oppressive, suffocating and autocratic.
Why is it that most pro-Israel activists and Jewish nationalists fail to understand that their behavior is intensely alienating and that they are turning most of the world against Israel? Where is that fabled Jewish faculty for appreciating irony?
Has there ever been a messianic ethnic nationalist who wasn't a dim thug? Strident and xenophobic ethnic nationalism brings out the very worst in human beings.
Hostage,
You wrote:
"That’s the addlebrained self-contradictory bullshit we can always expect from you Hophmi. “Israel” and “Jewish state” are inherently ethnocentric concepts with no redeeming secular value."
Amen.
After a while the shiftiness, intellectual dishonesty, self-contradictions, game-playing and manipulations of pro-Israel activists like hophmi become nauseating. There is no truth in them whatever -- just an endless stream of nonsensical rationalizations. There is very much a sociopathic vibe to the entire mess.
Zionism is as pure an expression of ethnic nationalism as one can find and Israel is by its own definition an ethnic nationalist state. Why all the clamor from the Israeli government and the Israel lobby for the world to acknowledge officially that Israel is a Jewish state in the ethnic sense?
Personality traits commonly associated with members of ethnic and religious cults:
1. abusive
2. aggressive
3. delusional
4. evasive
5. in denial
6. illogical
7. intellectually dishonest
8. irrational
9. manipulative
10. self-contradictory
11. self-righteous
12. shifty
13. slippery
We've seen it all in these exchanges.
eGuard,
Hophmi seems to be swimming in a sea of perpetual delirium. It is impossible to communicate rationally with him. He makes far too many errors in basic logic to bother even trying to clean them up.
His pattern is to try to say something -- anything -- about as many points as possible without making any effort to check his statements for factual grounding or logic. He is much too intellectually lazy to bother. He's got his cult beliefs and he's going to defend them no matter what. There is something childish about his persona.
As for David Broder -- you get it. He was a prominent Washington Post writer and he was in fact a Jewish ethnic nationalist. The Washington Post is swarming with them. Ethnic nationalists from other ethnic groups need not apply.
hophmi,
You wrote:
"You conjecture, based on nothing other than the religion of the writers, that Jews must support a position because they are Jews..."
You are either extraordinarily stupid or extraordinarily deceitful. It has been pointed out to you over and over again that Jewish neoconservatives and Jewish Likud Zionists are not being singled out for their religious backgrounds or affiliations but for their *political* beliefs as explicitly stated by themselves in their public writings.
Jewish neoconservatives and Jewish Likud Zionists define themselves -- by their own free will and in their own words -- as Jewish ethnic nationalists -- which is something much more narrow than being a Jew or Jewish religionist. They are ideologues of a particular well-known type by their own choice. They own those beliefs and have to take responsibility for them. They have to defend their beliefs in free and open debate in democratic societies and can't evade those debates by the cowardly recourse to the antisemitism smear.
You continue to ignore these points and push ahead with the same nonsense. Why do you do this?
You come across as a person whose mind has been severely addled and disordered by ethnic cultism and magical thinking. Nothing you say makes any sense at all -- you are trapped in a weird psychological and mental bubble and don't realize it. The sole effect of your confused efforts here is to further turn reasonable people away from Israel.
hophmi,
You wrote:
"I'm not doing your homework for you."
I am on the verge of dismissing you as a complete idiot.
How am I supposed to know which authorities, experts, books and journals *YOU* rely on to understand and analyze Mideast politics?
I think you know so little about this subject in a serious way that you have no idea who are the leading scholars in this field.
Every word you write is an embarrassment to Israel.
hophmi,
Let's see a list of your key authorities and experts on Mideast politics.
hophmi,
Which political issues do you care about more than Israel and conflicts with your ethnic, religious and national enemies?
And my deep insight of the day about basic human nature:
Any expression of ethnic or religious nationalism whatever is an irritant and provocation to ethnic and religious outsiders.
hophmi,
How is it "antisemitic" to point out that an amazingly high number of Washington Post writers are Jewish ethnic nationalists who agitated for the Iraq War and who are now agitating for an Iran War? You haven't managed to rebut a single factual statement on this matter.
And is it "antisemitic" to point out that Jewish ethnic nationalists are vastly overrepresented in mainstream media outlets like the Washington Post and New York Times compared to other ethnic nationalist groups in the United States? Why is this happening?
You repeatedly fall back on the antisemitism smear in these discussions because you can't analyze these issues in a rational, factual and fair-minded way. You are yourself an emotional and zealous true believer in Jewish ethnic nationalism.
Pro-Israel activists and Jewish nationalists like yourself are abusive, evasive, fact-challenged, intellectually dishonest, irrational, manipulative, overbearing, paranoid, self-obsessed, shrill, slippery and xenophobic. You have turned most of the world against Israel and against your narrow cause. Many Jews are beginning to figure out that this is a dead end ideological movement that is going to turn out to be a catastrophe for all concerned.
Mayhem,
You wrote:
"On the Jewish side there is this open-minded plurality and acceptance of different views and opinions so sites like Mondoweiss can flourish."
Mondoweiss points of view and authors are almost completely censored in the mainstream media and American Jewish establishment. From the standpoint of the Israel lobby, the Internet is a highly subversive and dangerous technology that needs to be brought under authoritarian control.
Even Peter Beinart, who is not nearly as adventurous as Philip Weiss, is now now under massive attack by the Jewish establishment and the Israel lobby for daring to state a few obvious facts about the real world.
The truth is, Zionism is now a reality-hostile and autocratic cult that specializes in shrill bullying and intimidation. It didn't have to be this way -- quite a few Zionists over the years have been quite rational and reality-based (up to a point) -- but those days are long gone.
Hostage,
Hophmi is completely impervious to all the well-documented facts that you and others bring to his attention -- repeatedly in this discussion he has failed to respond to or even acknowledge these facts.
Hophmi is an ethno-religious nationalist cultist. Cultists by definition are only interested in using information to prop up their irrational and indefensible beliefs -- they do not use facts about the world to search out the truth with an open mind.
hophmi,
Compare the number of New York Times op-ed articles on Israel with the number of op-ed articles on Ireland from 1960 through 2012. I am betting that the ratio is 10 to 1, or even 20 to 1, or even more. What do you think?
Run the same numbers for Germany, France, Italy, Sweden, Japan, etc.
The obsessive overfocus on Israel in the American mainstream media compared to other nations is grotesque -- and especially when one takes into account the number of Israelis and pro-Israel Jews in the United States compared to the numbers for other national and ethnic groups.
The smartest move that American Jews could make at this point is to greatly reduce the level of cantankerous controversies about Israel in American politics and culture. But the level of noise and clamor about Israel seems to keep increasing with every year.
Shingo,
Hophmi missed the main point: Irish ethnic nationalists are not a clamorous and warmongering presence on the op-ed pages of the Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal and other leading American newspapers. Nor are members of any other ethnic nationalist group except one -- hophmi's and Charles Krauthammer's group to be precise.
Most Americans are not ethnic nationalists and want nothing to do with ethnic nationalism. If they *were* going to go down the ethnic nationalist path they would be ethnic nationalists for their respective ethnic groups. They would be pursuing their naked ethnic self-interest in the same way that hophmi is pursuing his. But most Americans get what Americanism is all about -- it's trans-ethnic.
hophmi,
I named 32 Jewish ethnic nationalists who have been given a prominent platform on the op-ed page of the Washington Post. You didn't challenge or question any of the names on the list.
Once again: can you name any other ethnic nationalist groups that have been given a prominent platform on the op-ed pages of the Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal and other leading American mainstream newspapers?
Can you manage to come up at least a few names? Even one?
Who are the Irish, Arab, German or Italian equivalents to Charles Krauthammer at the Washington Post? Keep in mind that Jews represent only 2% of the American population and aggressive Jewish ethnic nationalists even a much smaller percent -- most American Jews do not share the views and agenda of Jewish neoconservatives and Likud Zionists.
What is going on here? What explains the extreme bias of the American mainstream media in this domain? Might it have anything to do with the agenda of the owners and top management of these media outlets?
Hostage,
After Googling around in the searches below, I get the impression that these trends are rapidly accelerating:
1. israel christians
2. israel christians arson
3. israel christians assaults
4. israel christians attacks
5. israel christians burn
6. israel christians new testaments
7. israel christians death threats
8. israel christians graffiti
9. israel christians insults
10. israel christians murders
11. israel christians price tag
12. israel christians spitting
Bob Simon and 60 Minutes didn't come close to getting the real story here.
Annie,
To get a handle on this, try Googling [israel attacks on christians]:
link to google.com
You'll hit the mother lode.
As for attacks on Muslims (both verbal and physical), the situation is of course much worse.
All of this was predictable: messianic ethno-religious nationalist movements, which is what Zionism has morphed into, derive their energy, forward momentum and reason for being from apocalyptic conflict with cult outsiders. Without an endless supply of enemies, they fall apart and collapse.
Chu,
The level of Jew-counting in mainstream Jewish publications like Forward, JTA, Tablet Magazine etc. is mind-boggling -- for instance, check out the "Chosen Images" feature in Forward:
link to forward.com
They are obsessed. But apparently the rest of the world is expected to avert its eyes and take no notice.
By the way, in reference to hophmi's recent remarks, is there any religious content in this Chosen Images series? Or is this all about ethnic solidarity, pride, self-promotion, etc.? All ethnic groups are narcissistic and self-obsessed to a degree -- but most of us try to keep a lid on those primitive impulses. And very few Americans are ethnic nationalists.
hophmi,
Here is another way to frame this discussion with the aim of uncovering the facts and the truth:
Sort US ethnic groups by the combined number of ethnic nationalist op-ed articles respectively in the
1. Wall Street Journal
2. New York Times
3. Washington Post
4. New York Daily News.
5. New York Post
6. Los Angeles Times
7. Chicago Tribune
8. Chicago Sun-Times
from 2000 to the present.
You already know what the bar chart is going to look like, right? It is going to be bizarre.
hophmi,
The issue is not Jews as members of a religion that is under discussion here, but Jews as members of an ETHNIC NATIONALIST group (and not merely an ethnic group -- the key term is "nationalist").
Do you grasp the distinction? Many secular, agnostic and atheist Jews are militant about being Jewish ethnic nationalists -- in fact, many or most of the founders and early leaders of Zionism were Marxists.
Let's take the Washington Post as an example (and I know how much you treasure these lists of empirical facts). One can easily come up with the names of 32 *ethnic nationalist* Jews who have written for the Washington Post:
1. Charles Krauthammer
2. Dan Senor
3. Dana Milbank
4. Daniel Pipes
5. David Broder
6. David Brooks
7. David Frum
8. Douglas Feith
9. Edward Luttwak
10. Elliott Abrams
11. Fred Hiatt
12. Fred Kagan
13. Glenn Kessler
14. Irving Kristol
15. Jeffrey Goldberg
16. Jennifer Rubin
17. John Podhoretz
18. Joshua Muravchik
19. Ken Adelman
20. Leon Wieseltier
21. Meyrav Wurmser
22. Michael Ledeen
23. Norman Podhoretz
24. Paul Wolfowitz
25. Peter Beinart
26. Richard Cohen
27. Richard Perle
28. Robert Kagan
29. Victoria Nuland
30. Walter Pincus
31. William Kristol
32. Yigal Carmon
This is quite extraordinary considering that Jews comprise only 2% of the American population.
Can you come up with the names of Washington Post writers who are Irish ethnic nationalists, Arab ethnic nationalists, German ethnic nationalists, black ethnic nationalists, Japanese ethnic nationalists, white ethnic nationalists, Latino ethnic nationalists, Anglo ethnic nationalists, Chinese ethnic nationalists, etc.?
Let's see what your lists look like.
Let me help you get started:
# Washington Post writer+Irish ethnic nationalist
1. ...
Many of those Jewish ethnic nationalists above, by the way, were ringleaders of the Iraq War and are now ringleading the campaign to attack Iran -- on behalf of Israel and Jewish ethnic nationalism.
They rather stand out like a sore thumb, don't you think? -- and especially considering that the Iraq War and the entire Global War on Terror have been the worst foreign policy disaster in American history. They have labored mightily to make themselves conspicuous in American politics and culture, and they have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
ritzl,
You wrote:
"It's pretty sad that, as Rosenberg says, "the official charity arm of the entire Jewish community" would go full-frontal Likud on this."
The entire Jewish community is going to end up owning the strident ideological Islamophobia of Likud Zionists like Dore Gold and all the crimes that ensue from it.
wondering jew,
So it's all about ethnocentrism, ethnic self-interest and ethnic nationalism? Is this the way that Americans and Europeans should organize their politics? Around ethnic tribalism, ethnic cronyism, ethnic nepotism, etc.?
proudzionist777,
Proud Zionist = proud Jewish ethnic nationalist. How is this any different than being a proud white nationalist, proud black nationalist, proud Arab nationalist, proud Christian nationalist, proud Afrikaner nationalist, etc.? What possible appeal can ethnic and religious nationalism have for ethnic and religious outsiders? Ethnic and religious nationalism are intrinsically provincial, self-ghettoizing and alienating.
Are you turned on by David Duke? The EDL? Louis Farrakhan?
And how can any ethnic or religious nationalist state be a member in good standing of the modern Western democratic community?
Brent Black needs to get himself some new and different Jewish friends. Most Jews I know don't apply ideological criteria (especially ethnic nationalist criteria) to judging art. When they see excellence, they praise it unreservedly.
This is why Zionism may well turn out to be a catastrophe for Jews: many people (probably a majority of people all around the world) now, like Brent Black, associate "the Jews" -- the Jewish people, the Jewish community -- with Israel. And Israel, thanks to Likud Greater Israelists, has increasingly come to be associated with apartheid, racism, ethnic cleansing, house demolitions, assassinations, wars of aggression, Islamophobia, religious extremism, hostility to free speech, etc.
Why do people like Brent Black believe that Israel=the Jews? Because the Jewish establishment has successfully hammered that false and inflammatory propaganda theme into their heads.
Regarding Brent Black's sudden reversal: another classic case of being Goldstoned -- this time by Black's "Jewish friends." Appalling.
The triumph of primitive and xenophobic ethnic nationalism over universal excellence.
hophmi,
You wrote:
"Focus on the pre-’67 part, since you’re arguing the whole project is bad."
Racist Jewish settlements in the occupied territories are an integral part of the entire Zionist project. The Israeli government, the Israeli electorate, the Israel lobby and the worldwide organized Jewish establishment own those racist settlements and the apartheid regime which supports them. They are fully responsible for them.
hophmi,
You are a slippery fellow indeed. Do you support any ethnic nationalist movements around the world besides Zionism? Which ones? What about white ethnic nationalist movements in Europe? Support or oppose?
hophmi,
You wrote:
"Israel is not an example of Jewish ethnic nationalism."
Israel officially defines itself is the state of the Jews -- all Jews worldwide. Are you now going to try to claim that Jews do not constitute an ethnic group and that Zionism is not an ethnic nationalist ideology and movement?
Again: would you have any objections to the United States officially defining itself as the state of ethnic whites? Germany as the state of ethnic Germans? South Africa as the state of ethnic Afrikaners?
hophmi,
You wrote:
"I support Israel’s democracy, which expands voting rights and representation to all of its non-Jewish citizens."
This is the same ethnic nationalist state that is forever expanding JEWISH-ONLY settlements (largely led by Jewish religious zealots) in illegally occupied territories, in quest of fulfilling the biblical fantasy of building and consolidating Greater Israel.
If America were constructing ANGLO-CHRISTIAN-ONLY settlements in occupied territories anywhere in the world, in defiance of international law and world opinion, humanity would rightly describe the United States as an aggressively racist state.
hophmi,
More verbal abuse, directed by an Israeli at an American:
BEGIN QUOTES
stupid argument...
lists of nonsense...
You're a bigot...
all of the nonsense you post here...
I just don’t find your questions posed in good faith...
The statement is very silly...
END QUOTES
If you will allow me to don my prophet's cap, I am predicting that the torrent of verbal abuse that is regularly sprayed at Americans, Europeans and other national groups by pro-Israel activists is going to be the most important factor in ruining Israel's relations with the rest of the world. Policy discussions about Israel should have never deteriorated to this level. We are now past the point of no return.
Most of us have never in our lives been addressed this way by citizens of other nations who were demanding from Americans an endless stream of special favors.
hophmi,
You wrote:
"there is no Jewish ethnic nationalism in Israel"
Zionism is an ethnic nationalist movement and Israel is an ethnic nationalist state -- actually an ethno-religious nationalist state.
hophmi,
Which political issues do you care about more than, or as much as, your Jewish ethnic nationalist issues? A serious question.
I can name many issues that I care about more than Jewish ethnic nationalist issues, and I pay no attention at all to my own ethnic nationalist issues -- I don't have any in that department. Unlike you, I am not an ethnic nationalist.
For instance:
1. American civil liberties and civil rights
2. American domestic economy
3. American foreign policy
4. American health care
5. American economic competition with China, India, South Korea, etc.
6. American radical wealth inequality
7. American infrastructure
8. environment and climate change
9. women's rights
10. animal rights
Many American Jews share my agenda and values -- they are not Israel/Zionist Firsters. Do you have any idea how alienating your narrow ethnic nationalist politics are for most Americans, Europeans and other people all around the world? Do you realize that there is a great big world out there entirely outside the confines of your suffocating ethnocentrism? Now and then you should come up air and take a look around you.
hophmi,
You wrote:
"I support the Jewish right to self-determination."
Do you support the right to German ethnic self-determination in Germany? The right to white ethnic self-determination in the United States? The right to Afrikaner self-determination in South Africa?
Should Germany be formally defined as the state of ethnic Germans? The United States as the state of Anglo-Christians? South Africa as the state of white South Africans?
Your thought processes have been severely scrambled by your self-interested ethnic nationalism.
hophmi,
You're losing it:
BEGIN QUOTES
You think your bullshit...
Go try this crap...
figment of your bigoted mind...
laughed at anywhere but here...
your skewed views...
END QUOTES
My "skewed views": *consistent* support for modern Western democratic values as embodied in the US Constitution and Bill of Rights and *consistent* opposition to ethnic nationalism, religious nationalism and other pre-Enlightenment ideologies.
hophmi,
Once again: which contemporary ethnic nationalist movements around the world do you support other than Jewish ethnic nationalism and Zionism? Can you name even one such movement?
hophmi,
You wrote:
"The problem with you, Sean, is that you’re not willing to admit your tacit support for every one of these ideas by failing to call on any state but Israel to deal with it....
You’re not against ethnic nationalism."
This is false. I have spoken out strongly against ethnic nationalist movements (and their concomitant Islamophobia and antisemitism) in both the United States and Europe on many occasions, and contrasted those movements with my strong support for modern Western democratic values, which are pluralist and universalist.
The last time Europe succumbed to ethnic nationalist urges it produced Nazism and fascism.
Face it, hophmi: you are a Jewish version of David Duke. Your mind and personality are ruled entirely by ethnic self-interest and ethnic nationalism. You are radically out of step with contemporary American and European values.
hophmi,
You are being remarkably evasive.
You support Jewish ethnic nationalism as a formal organizing political philosophy in Israel. But you oppose ethnic nationalism as a formal organizing political philosophy in the United States, Europe, South Africa, Germany, Britain and everywhere else in the world. Or are you in fact ok with the United States and Europe formally defining themselves as ethnic nationalist states that favor whites over all other ethnic groups?
What's your game? Is it all about naked ethnic self-interest and nothing else? Grotesque double standards?
At least Pamela Geller is somewhat intellectually consistent: she has been in bed with the EDL (English Defence League).
To put this another way: how is the ethnic nationalism of David Duke any more offensive than the ethnic nationalism of Benjamin Netanyahu and the entire worldwide organized Jewish establishment?
hophmi,
Let me rephrase this question to cut to the quick.
Do you support or oppose:
1. English ethnic nationalism in Britain?
2. German ethnic nationalism in Germany?
3. Afrikaner ethnic nationalism in South Africa?
4. white ethnic nationalism in the United States?
5. white ethnic nationalism in Europe?
6. Jewish ethnic nationalism in Israel?
What is the rationale behind your policy positions? Something more than naked and opportunistic ethnic self-interest one presumes or hopes?
hophmi,
Which types of ethnic nationalism do you support and which do you oppose?
1. Afrikaner ethnic nationalism
2. Arab ethnic nationalism
3. Asian ethnic nationalism
4. black ethnic nationalism
5. Chinese ethnic nationalism
6. Dutch ethnic nationalism
7. English ethnic nationalism
8. European ethnic nationalism
9. French ethnic nationalism
10. German ethnic nationalism
11. Indian ethnic nationalism
12. Irish ethnic nationalism
13. Italian ethnic nationalism
14. Japanese ethnic nationalism
15. Jewish ethnic nationalism
16. Latino ethnic nationalism
17. Palestinian ethnic nationalism
18. Swedish ethnic nationalism
19. white ethnic nationalism
alec,
A major item on the Mondoweiss software wish list: include *one's own* comments in email subscriptions to threads -- valuable (and indispensable) indeed for understanding, analyzing and archiving the complete structure of conversations.
hophmi wrote: "No one is really talking about him right now, frankly."
This is your mind on ethnic nationalism and cultism -- no mind at all. A total cognitive disconnect from reality.
The most efficient way to track new comments on an article, and to search on all comments on an article, is to subscribe to them in email in conjunction with a first-rate mail reader like Gmail. Works like a charm.
I use Gmail to browse, manage and reply to Mondoweiss comments much more than the Mondoweiss website. And I use the Mondoweiss on Friendfeed group on Friendfeed to track new articles.
Trying to track new comments by eyeballing the Mondoweiss website? Forget about it. :)
alec,
You wrote:
"We are likely going to change to expand full threads on click (rather than one comment at a time). Or we may move to a toggle (New/All)."
Sounds good.
Any chance of providing the option to "like" comments and to sort comments by number of likes? Sort of like the New York Times comment system?
Is Mondoweiss built on a particular blogging platform or software package? Are you the chief programmer here?
Thanks.
Offering the option to open all the comments with a single click would solve this issue, yes?
hophmi,
All those themes and images have appeared in many thousands of articles, books, TV stories, radio stories, etc. all around the world during the last few decades. And they are based on solid facts.
Let's start with the first item on the list and work our way down, item by item: do you deny that Israel and the Israel lobby have been leading the campaign to try to goad Americans into attacking Iran?
hophmi,
You wrote: "Phil's politics are the politics of self-destruction."
Actually, hophmi, I think your politics are the politics of self-destruction and that every time you open your mouth about Israel you make matters worse.
How has it come to pass that so much of the world now associates Zionism and Israel with these themes and images?
1. agitation for an Iran War
2. AIPAC
3. anti-Arab bigotry
4. apartheid
5. apocalyptic melodrama and hysteria
6. assassinations
7. attacks on children
8. attacks on civilians
9. biblical militarism
10. biblical territorialism
11. black ops
12. chosen people supremacism
13. Christian Zionists
14. ethnic cleansing
15. false accusations of antisemitism
16. false flag ops
17. haredi spitting on women and Christians
18. hate speech
19. Holocaust exploitation
20. hostility to free speech
21. house demolitions
22. Islamophobia
23. Israeli spying on Americans
24. Jewish religious extremists in the occupied territories
25. land theft
26. messianic ethno-religious nationalism
27. neoconservatives
28. Old Testament cultism
29. personal attacks
30. police state methods
31. price tag attacks
32. racism
33. religious fundamentalism
34. self-ghettoization
35. shady billionaires
36. state terrorism
37. stolen passports
38. threats and intimidation
39. torture
40. vandalism
41. verbal abuse
42. warmongering
43. wars of aggression
44. xenophobia
Do you have any reason to believe that this situation is going to improve? And why would you want these items to be associated with "the Jews"?
I just noticed this tweet today on one of the most heavily subscribed pro-Israel feeds on Twitter:
"JIDF: RT @DavidAppletree: Fuck you, Emma Thompson, you antisemitic and hypocritical pig: link to t.co #JIDF #Jews #Israel"
Know what I mean?
One of Phil Weiss's most important essays, I think, and an inspiration for all Americans, from all religions and ethnic groups.
It should be pointed out (thank God) that there are many smart comments on the Pajamas Media site (including many smart Jewish comments) which take Kerstein to the woodshed:
Two examples:
1. From JohnJ:
"I must concur with the sentiments in the posts regarding how idiotic this article makes the pro-Israel side look. Those of us who *actually* support Israel don’t ask that people be blind to disagreements they might have with the Israeli government. It is no more anti-Semitic to disagree with the Israeli government’s actions than it is anti-American to disagree with the American government’s actions.
Put it another way: if you ever even mouth criticism of President Obama, that, according to your logic, makes you anti-American. To me, that’s an obtuse and absurd stance to take. Only a fool would dare make such an argument."
2. From Patrick Canavan:
"I’m a Jew. I love my Jewish family and friends. I celebrate the Yiddishkeit. I think that Israel has set itself on a course of slow self-destruction. I fear this bodes ill for all Jews in Israel and the diaspora. Am I an anti-Semite?"
The message which many American pro-Israel activists regularly convey is that criticism of the American government is legitimate and obligatory (they often stridently engage in this kind of criticism themselves) but that criticism of the Israeli government is verboten. So Benjamin Kerstein is telling us that Americans should exercise their democratic obligation to disagree with and challenge their own government but shut up when it comes to the Israeli government -- even when Israeli policies are severely damaging American interests and undermining American values.
It is difficult to imagine a better method for turning Americans against Israel. How did Kerstein manage to get trapped in such a neurotic and self-destructive mental loop? What would bring him to his senses? Nothing. This is a lost cause.
The Jewish establishment (and, yes, the Jewish community) needs to engage in some serious self-reflection: how did it manage to produce so many Benjamin Kersteins? What can it do to turn this situation around?
Dickerson3870,
Re: Betar and Jabotinsky: Zionism (especially Revisionist Zionism) wasn't a response to Nazism and fascism -- Zionism, Nazism and fascism all sprang from the same cultural and ideological soil (militant and mystical ethnic nationalism) during the same historical era.
Rabbi Qarim: "The wars of Israel […] are mitzvah wars, in which they differ from the rest of the wars THE NATIONS [my emphasis] wage among themselves."
It gradually begins to dawn on one that this binary ideological construct -- the chosen nation vs. "the nations" (everyone outside the cult) is the mythical core of a *racist* and ethnic supremacist belief system. And Zionism has always been heavily suffused with these attitudes. One can easily turn up thousands of authoritative quotes from both religious and secular Zionists to develop this argument.
So how, really, are members of "the nations" (goyim) expected to respond to being categorized in this way? With warmth? With feelings of friendship? Or with other feelings? This is a subject that needs to be opened up and dissected in depth. The same patterns of bitter and violent conflict over these beliefs keep coming up again and again over several thousand years of history -- and they are heating up with exceptional (probably unprecedented) force and energy right now in the year 2012.
I don't want to go off on a tangent here, but Daniel Freedman is a contributor to Ali Soufan's book "The Black Banners: The Inside Story of 9/11 and the War Against al-Qaeda":
link to amazon.com
Ali Soufan has issued a major challenge to the official story on 9/11:
"Former FBI agent says truth of 9/11 remains hidden"
link to bbc.co.uk
BEGIN QUOTE
A former FBI agent has told the BBC that he is being prevented from telling the truth about the events of 9/11 and what has happened since.
Ali Soufan alleges that crucial intelligence was not passed on from the CIA before the attacks in 2001.
He has written a book detailing some of his claims and has been speaking to the BBC's Security Correspondent Gordon Corera in his first on camera interview on the subject.
END QUOTE
Soufan's charges nicely jibe with those made by Richard Clarke. Add his book to a long list of books by 9/11 skeptics.
It was curious to discover Daniel Freedman entangled with these controversies.
On the belief system of many religious Zionists (from the comments):
BEGIN QUOTE
The "crisis" is not with the State of Israel but the "credentials" of the author.
Whatever kind of Judaism he practices it is obvious he has not read the first Bible commentary by Rashi one of the greatest Jewish scholars. The Bible begins with the creation of the world and states that God chose the land of Israel for the Jews. That also included the West Bank.
The highest spiritual level of the world was when Judaism was at the pinnacle of success at the time of Orthodox Jews like King David and Solomon. Gentiles lived in peace and offered sacrifices at The Temple of Solomon while in paying homage to God.
As secular government fades away and the Orthodox, ultra-Orthodox, and Haredim become a majority Israel will become a "light unto the nations" when even the Palestinians and the Arab world will praise God.
END QUOTE
Daniel Freedman puts "settlements" in quotes, as if to imply that they are not actually settlements (even though the settlers themselves refer to them as settlements). He claims to have no idea what the term "tribal privilege" means.
I have yet to encounter a neocon (and that is what Freedman plainly is) who didn't strike me as being quite stupid, but at the same time gifted with a remarkable ability to pull the wool over his or her eyes -- they are capable of rationalizing absolutely anything in pursuit of their tribal self-interest and privilege. And one wonders if their religious indoctrination might have played a key role in forming these mental habits.
Regarding "higher standards" -- members of modern Western democracies expect Israel to respect and honor modern Western democratic values and practices -- it's really quite simple. If you want to be a member of the modern Western democratic community behave appropriately. Modern Western democracies are not ethnic, religious or ethno-religious nationalist states that discriminate against ethnic and religious outsiders on the basis of holy books.
By the way, check out the comments: many of the attacks on Beinart are boiling over with extreme hatred and bigotry of the kind which have already turned much of the world against Israel.
To qualify the above comment: most Jews I know are *not* ethnocentric in an abrasive, confrontational and abusive way. To the degree that they are ethnocentric, they are ethnocentric in a positive manner -- they share the positive values in Jewish culture in a low-key and friendly style. I dig that. Sharing the wealth. I appreciate that same behavior from all other ethnic groups -- this is what we've got that you might like -- what do you have that we might like? Not ethnic homogenization, but ethnic mingling and sharing. Respect.
I would like to express my thanks to some of the people who have made me acutely aware of the role of strident ethnocentrism and ethnic nationalism in American politics:
1. Abraham Foxman 2. Alan Dershowitz 3. Ari Fleischer 4. Benjamin Netanyahu 5. Brad Sherman 6. Bret Stephens 7. Caroline Glick 8. Charles Krauthammer 9. Chuck Schumer 10. Dan Senor 11. Daniel Pipes 12. David Frum 13. David Horowitz 14. David Makovsky 15. Debbie Schlussel 16. Dennis Prager 17. Dennis Ross 18. Dick Morris 19. Douglas Feith 20. Ed Koch 21. Elliott Abrams 22. Gary Ackerman 23. Haim Saban 24. Howard Berman 25. Irving Kristol 26. Jamie Kirchick 27. Jeffrey Goldberg 28. Jennifer Rubin 29. Joe Lieberman 30. John Podhoretz 31. Jonah Goldberg 32. Joshua Muravchik 33. Lanny Davis 34. Lee Smith 35. Leon Wieseltier 36. Malcolm Hoenlein 37. Martin Peretz 38. Max Boot 39. Meyrav Wurmser 40. Michael Ledeen 41. Michael Medved 42. Mona Charen 43. Mort Zuckerman 44. Norman Podhoretz 45. Pamela Geller 46. Rachel Abrams 47. Reuel Marc Gerecht 48. Richard Perle 49. Steve Emerson 50. William Kristol
Thanks to one and all, and I apologize to anyone I left out who deserves to make the list.
This is my main question: why are these folks so much more obsessively ethnocentric than I am and than the vast majority of Americans? Why? Is there any possibility that they could dial down their ethnocentrism to a reasonable level -- one in sync with most Americans? Or is that simply impossible for them?
Thomson Rutherford,
The point to focus on, it seems to me, is not simply the voluminous and conspicuous expressions of ethnocentrism from this quarter, but the *extremity* of those expressions, which are often ethnic nationalist, messianic, paranoid, xenophobic, aggressive, abusive, violent, threatening, etc. See Pamela Geller at Atlas Shrugs for a leading example of the phenomenon:
link to atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com
There are hundreds of others like her in the mainstream media and blogosphere. Most neocons are ethnic militants. Ethnic militancy drove their campaign to go to war against Iraq.
Might they succeed in stirring up significant antisemitism in the United States, Europe and all around the world? Does the sun rise in the east?
Why are some people much more ethnocentric than others? That is an interesting question. Is there a genetic factor in play as well as cultural factors?
Are some American ethnic groups more ethnocentric than others? If so, why is this the case? How can we measure and analyze the role of ethnocentrism, ethnic nationalism and ethnic militancy in American and global politics in scientific and precise ways?
On the subject of ethnocentrism, this is where to bear down to unravel this mess:
sort US ethnic groups by
1. ethnocentrism
2. ethnic nationalism
3. ethnic xenophobia
4. ethnic aggression
in the mainstream media, popular culture, the political process, etc.
1. ethnocentrism index: the number of times one mentions one's ethnic identity, issues, problems, conflicts or enemies -- otherwise known as the ethnic narcissism index.
2. ethnic nationalism index: the number of times one mentions one's ethnic nationalist issues.
3. ethnic xenophobia index: the number of times one mentions one's ethnic enemies.
4. ethnic aggression index: the number of times one attacks others over one's ethnic issues.
For instance:
sort US ethnic groups by number of ethnic nationalist op-ed articles in the New York Times from 2000 through 2011.
Ethnic groups which are well-integrated into American culture and society mention their respective ethnic nationalist issues barely at all.
For instance: compare Jeffrey Goldberg and Andrew Sullivan on the scale of ethnic nationalism. Jeffrey Goldberg is obsessed with his ethnic (and ethnic nationalist) issues; Sullivan rarely mentions his ethnic issues -- he has a broad range of interests that relate to humanity as a whole.
If Peter Beinart had his act together he would have never got bogged down in ethnic nationalism -- he would instead be a full--fledged and unqualified American.
A proper penance for all those neocons who engineered and cheered on the Iraq War would be: 1. to confiscate all their assets to help pay back a minuscule percentage of the several trillion dollars they dumped down the drain in Iraq 2. to bar them from any further participation in the American political process -- certainly not a single word more of their inane punditry anywhere in the mainstream media. Just for starters, of course. This doesn't begin to cover the issue of seeking justice for the war crimes that were committed (and which they egged on) against hundreds of thousands (or millions) of innocent civilians.
Klaus,
You wrote:
"Thank you for your comment weindeb. I found Annie's response puzzling because she herself abhors classifying victims by ethnic, religious or gender or whatever criteria (see her article about the soccer fans in Jerusalem). She must have misunderstood my first post."
That's what I thought -- we all occasionally misread texts. (Or maybe she is a developing a line of thought that I am misreading.)
This notion that Foxman seems to suggest -- that the Jews collectively (the Jewish people) physically embody God (and are not merely God's supreme agents on the planet, above all other peoples in this role) -- is, uh, interesting. Foxman is a leading member of the organized Jewish establishment. How many other leaders of the Jewish establishment share his views? From whence do these views originate? To what degree are Judaism and Zionism steeped in this outlook?
Is it fair to describe this mentality as racist? I think so. In fact, synonymizing one's ethnic group with God is arguably racism at its most extreme.
Annie,
It looks like a legit quote, then, and it means what it seemed to mean.
I don't know anything about Klaus's past comments and writings, but I think he raised a valid point here in this current comment.
Within the overall context of 20th century political mass murder and genocide (some 100 million victims according to reputable sources), Jewish lives should be neither undervalued nor overvalued in comparison to non-Jewish lives.
Annie,
What did you make of this quote from Abraham Foxman?
"[The Holocaust] is not just an example of a genocide, but a nearly successful attack on the lives of God’s chosen children and therefore on God himself.”
I was stunned by it. Did he really say this? Did he just equate his "people" (ethnic group) with God and define the uniqueness of the Holocaust within that philosophical/theological framework? I know that some (many? most? all?) Jewish fundamentalists hold this racist belief, but I thought that Foxman was (relatively speaking) a secular moderate.
Perhaps the quote is a hoax or was ripped out of context. It seems like the kind of thing Ovadia Yosef would say. (Yosef is the Israeli ultra-Orthodox religious leader who described non-Jews as subhuman and dumb beasts of burden.)
This is an important topic. A strong argument could be made that racism is at the root of everything that has gone wrong with the Zionist enterprise. The more I dig into the earliest Zionist writings, the more that racist beliefs and attitudes strike my eye. Most ethnic nationalist movements are racist at the core and Zionism apparently is no exception. (Qualification: I don't think that all Israelis or supporters of Israel are racists -- but they have been swept up by an ideological and cultural system based on ancient biblical myths and memes that does appear to be racist.)
Isn't this a classical antisemitic trope?
“It’s a narcissistic book, and the narcissism of privileged and haughty people is never particularly attractive,” Martin Peretz, the former owner of the New Republic and Beinart’s earliest patron, told me. “I always knew he was a very vain man, but a lot of us are vain, and if you had his mother, or if I had his mother, I’d be even more vain than I am.” Peretz put on a mocking falsetto—“this is the most brilliant boy, he’s so smart, he’s so touching”—before going on: “It’s a Jewish mother situation. You can use that—even if it makes me sound a little bitchy.”
And doesn't it sound like Martin Peretz is succumbing to psychological projection to a degree that is embarrassing?
Two interesting facts about Leon Wieseltier: 1. He was once a Kahanist (a member of the JDL, as I recall). 2. He was a supporter of the Libby Legal Defense Trust -- a neocon outfit to be sure (and yet another front group for the Israel lobby). Wieseltier's fellow members of that group included Martin Peretz, Dennis Ross, James Woolsey, Mel Sembler, Bernard Lewis and Fouad Ajami.
Sometimes Wieseltier says some of the right things about Mideast politics from a progressive standpoint, but the bottom line is that his personality is as much ruled by obsessive and xenophobic ethnocentrism and ethnic nationalism as that of Martin Peretz, Jeffrey Goldberg or Richard Perle.
Wieseltier, Jeffrey Goldberg and Lee Smith have all gone ballistic over Andrew Sullivan daring to challenge some policies of the Israeli government and the Israel lobby. Many people have been taken aback by the ferocity of the malice they have directed at Sullivan, who has been a long-time warm supporter of Israel.
Krauss -- sometimes I just want to say, great post. So, great post -- pitch perfect.
You said: "Now it basically hangs on Gentiles." Here is the problem: how can non-Jews in an organized way challenge the Israeli government, and the worldwide organized Jewish establishment which props up that government, without inadvertently reanimating in the political mainstream the slumbering giant of classical antisemitism?
It's a real stumper. I try to do my small part by embedding my criticism of the Israeli government and the organized Jewish establishment within a larger framework of sincere praise for all the good things I admire in the Jewish tradition and in the Jewish community as a whole. But these are distinctions that are lost on the minds of most Jews and non-Jews. Therefore, when I feel in a prophetic mood and mode, I predict catastrophe at the end of this tunnel. The situation is out of control and can't be fixed.
On the Israeli espionage front, from Sic Semper Tyrannis:
link to turcopolier.typepad.com
BEGIN QUOTE
Israel's Nuclear Triggers: Secret files reveal brazen espionage and dangerous immunity
by Grant F. Smith
...claims that Milchan was recruited into Israel's LAKAM economic espionage unit in his 20s and became a key operative for Benjamin Blumberg (head of LAKAM) and Rafi Eitan (who ran Jonathan Pollard and infiltrated NUMEC). Milchan is also the close confidant of Shimon Peres and Benjamin Netanyahu. According to the book, Blumberg himself taught Milchan how to establish front companies and secret bank accounts to launder millions in commissions obtained during LAKAM and Mossad arms transactions. In turn, it was Milchan who encouraged Smyth in 1972 to incorporate MILCO and share profits on export sales to his Tel Aviv-based Milchan Brothers company. Milchan Brothers received purchase orders from Blumberg and sent them on via secure telex to Smyth. MILCO did 80% of its business with Milchan, including shipments of other dual-use technologies useful to Israel's clandestine nuclear weapons program such as gyroscopes, neutron generators, high-speed oscilloscopes, and computerized flight control systems. According to the book, after Smyth was ordered to appear before a federal prosecutor in Los Angeles, LAKAM issued a burn notice. Milchan claimed, "I felt bad, but I was ordered to cut all contact with Smyth." Milchan still officially denies any involvement in MILCO/Heli's kryton smuggling...
...Perhaps trying not to be outdone, President Barack Obama announced at AIPAC's Washington conference that he will soon take center stage in the Israeli nuclear Théâtre de l'Absurde. According to author Avner Cohen, Israeli President Shimon Peres was a key architect of Israel's nuclear weapons program from its very beginning. In 2010, scholar Sasha Polakow-Suransky released secret documents revealing how Peres even offered to sell nuclear-tipped Jericho missiles to the foundering apartheid regime in South Africa. That is why this summer, when Obama personally awards Peres a Presidential Medal of Freedom, he'll be conferring America's highest civilian award to the Middle East's most notorious nuclear proliferator.
link to original.antiwar.com
END QUOTE
Note: JIDF -- a Kahanist group which has more than 52,000 followers on Twitter link to twitter.com -- is closely monitoring Mondoweiss:
BEGIN TWEET
JIDF: ....bizarre conspiracy theories and lies found in comment sections of the antisemitic "Mondo-Weiss" site link to t.co
END TWEET
Dan --
Have you stopped to think about the kinds of malicious ops a sophisticated intel agency could run against its "enemies" using Google's and Facebook's private datasets? Use your imagination. The possibilities are endless. If you've read Victor Ostrovsky's and Gordon Thomas's books on the subject, you will know that Mossad has a special talent in this domain.
Dan,
You wrote,
"The reason why these conversations are kind of, well, dumb in my opinion, is that “commanding more effective human social networks” is not something you can quantify...."
Actually, quite a few people who are not so dumb *are* quantifying these matters with some success using a combination of social network analysis, data mining, psychological profiling, political profiling, predictive analytics, etc. There are patterns and correlations in the open and visible data that can point to and uncover patterns and correlations in the hidden and invisible data.
Have there been high-level members of the Obama, Bush 43 and Clinton administrations who would have been motivated to cooperate with Russian intelligence services? None that come to mind. With regard to Israel? That is a different matter entirely. The ethno-religious ideology of Zionism has an ironclad grip on the minds and emotions of many influential Americans. Russian ethnic nationalism and Russian patriotism -- not so much.
Dan,
For every Israeli op that is uncovered in the US there are probably thousands or more that go undetected for eternity -- which is the way effective ops are supposed to work.
Is there a highly energized Russia lobby present in the United States to match the Israel lobby in wealth, power, motivation, commitment, dedication, etc.? No, there is not. But Mossad has a very large pool of potential operatives to recruit in the United States, many of them in very high places in government, business and high tech, on the basis of intensely emotional ethnic, religious, ideological and patriotic factors. And Israel, because of its precarious position in the world, is much more aggressive in trying to spy on and control the American political system than any other nation on the planet.
You said: "Mossad is a total clown show." I'm betting that it could eat your lunch with little effort without you having the slightest idea that it had been eaten. You greatly underestimate the capabilities of Mossad, in my opinion.
How great an interest do you think Mossad would take in the assets and resources of Google and Facebook? How many friends within those organizations would be eager and willing to help Mossad if called upon for assistance?
Dan,
Do you and seafoid have any particular foreign intelligence services in mind that command more effective human social networks and resources than Mossad at the most strategic American institutions? Can you name them?
seafoid --
I repeat: Mossad is able to draw on the resources of emotional and patriotic Zionists (both Jewish and non-Jewish) from all around the world and from the highest levels of government and corporate power. Mossad isn't just about Israel -- it's about an integrated global social and political network.
Which foreign intel agency in the world, using its human social network, would be better able than Mossad to extract the deepest and most sensitive data from a wide variety of American organizations? AT&T, Bank of America, CIA, Citibank, Comcast, DARPA, DHS, DIA, Facebook, FBI, Google, Harvard, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Justice Department, LAPD, Mastercard, Microsoft, MIT, NSA, NYPD, Oracle, Treasury Department, Verizon, Visa, Yale, etc.?
seafoid,
Mossad is incredibly effective because it is backed up by the resources of a large global network of highly motivated supporters and assets, many of whom occupy positions of extraordinary power -- both in the public and private sectors -- in their respective nations (especially the United States). How many pro-Israel activists in the Diaspora would do favors for Mossad if asked? Quite a few -- that is a reasonable assumption.
Marty Lev -- what is his political profile? Eric Schmidt -- his political profile? Their personal social networks?
These people have enormous power over the most highly sensitive personal data of many millions of people worldwide. Consider the email stores alone -- an unbelievable record of many of the most significant details in one's life (including account numbers, passwords, plans, contacts, etc.). Could that data be used for sinister purposes? You bet.
seafoid,
How have I overrated Mossad? Mossad is perfectly capable of organizing pro-Israel sympathizers all around the world -- and at the highest levels of the American government, American academe and Fortune 1000 -- into espionage and action networks which in turn are components of a single grand network.
In the case I just mentioned, a member of the JIDF bragged about his access to all my personal news alerts on Google and other major Internet services. And he did in fact have access. JIDF boasts more than 50,000 followers on Twitter -- quite a few of them no doubt have access to private government and corporate databases.
No high-level Mossad operative would of course be stupid enough to expose this capability. But Mossad can't exercise perfect control over all the members of its networks, some of whom may not be too bright.
Associated questions: how deeply has Mossad penetrated Google and Facebook? How many Google and Facebook insiders (including both high-level and low-level insiders) might be sympathetic to the political agenda of Mossad? Google's and Facebook's private datasets represent an intelligence treasure beyond compare.
I once had someone who implied that he was Mossad-associated claim, in a threatening way, that he and his organization (the JIDF) could access all my major Internet accounts (including Google) -- and he provided proof that he could indeed do so. Ever since that incident I have wondered if Mossad (and less sophisticated organizations like the JIDF, which may or may not be associated with Mossad) have developed networks of operatives in all the major Internet companies. There are unlimited ways to abuse the information controlled by these companies.
Phil,
Shimon Peres, Dennis Ross, Aaron David Miller and Martin Indyk have soured me forever concerning all "well-intentioned" projects originating from "left-wing" Zionist circles. Either they are all grossly incompetent or they have been playing a double game all along -- I lean towards the latter speculation.
Just when you think you've grasped the full dimensions of the Israel lobby, and its dozens of interconnected component organizations and front groups, you learn of yet another piece of the puzzle:
"The American Jewish International Relations Institute (AJIRI) founded by Richard Schifter, former Ambassador to the UN has been helping to combat these anti-Israel initiatives (including the recent Palestinian Statehood initiative) by changing UN votes."
And many members of this lobby still claim that it doesn't exist and will verbally abuse you if, seeing the evidence that is directly in front of your nose, you dare say otherwise.
teta mother me,
You can find a list on Amazon.com of over 500 books on the subject of Christian antisemitism right here:
link to amazon.com
Enjoy.
lareineblanche,
With regard to past ideologically-motivated misdeeds by the groups you mentioned -- Roman Catholics, Brits, Muslims, Germans, etc. --we try to understand those misdeeds by understanding the ideologies that motivated and drove them -- at least that is what serious students of intellectual history try to do.
If any of those groups were to indulge in similar behavior today, we would of course be taking a very close look at their ideologies yet again -- that would be the reasonable thing do.
Jewish ethnic nationalism (Zionism) in the contemporary era has come to dominate the agenda and values of the worldwide Jewish establishment -- there is no way to ignore that. The ideology must be examined closely and opposed or condemned when it deserves being opposed or condemned.
With regard to Veterans Today -- aspects of the publication make me uncomfortable -- it's not at the top of my reading list, for sure -- but it is covering some important issues that other publications are afraid to touch. I doubt that Gordon Duff or Alan Sabrosky, who are both Jewish, are antisemites. Perhaps you can make the case that they are if you want to try.
I am judging Gilad Atzmon by the writings of his I have perused so far (only a relatively small proportion) -- not by his associations. So far it strikes me that he is raising important questions about the current course of mainstream Jewish politics in a way that is not antisemitic -- and, in a way, is very Jewish (in terms of speaking truth to power with intellectual force).
annie,
Now I see what was behind your brief remark, with this expanded argument of yours. It resonates with me. But I can't shake the gut intuition that American Mideast policies won't improve (and with that change, improve to relieve the plight of the Palestinians) until a critical mass of Jews reaches the same level of insight as Hostage and Shmuel. So, all of these issues are still up in the air for me.
When I look around me now, I see the Israeli government and the Israel lobby agitating with all the considerable power at their disposal to push American Mideast policy in a much worse and more dangerous direction than it already is on -- and the last decade of that policy has already been hugely disastrous, with trillions of dollars dumped down the drain in failed wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
teta mother me,
I think all civilizations have unique characteristics that make them valuable and interesting -- Indian, British, American, Chinese, Italian, German, Japanese, Irish, Persian, etc. But I might make the argument that Jewish civilization has been exceptionally influential in world history (look at the impact of the Bible on world culture) and especially creative in the arts, sciences and commerce during the last century or two (see Yuri Slezkine's "The Jewish Century").
Slezkine's book is here:
link to amazon.com
But I think we are entering a phase of human history where all civilizations are going to need to work together and merge their cultures as a matter of human survival (with the threat of WMDs lurking in the background and all that).
There is Atzmon's perfectly reasonable argument in a nutshell -- *in his own words* -- and none of his detractors have understood, addressed or discussed it in an intellectually honest way -- instead they smeared him with the kind of language that is indistinguishable from the kinds of attacks on political opponents that are typically used by Alan Dershowitz or Abraham Foxman. For shame.
Annie,
That sector of the Jewish left which has challenged Likud for the last half century or so probably reached the peak of its influence just before the failure of the Oslo Accords and the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by a religious Zionist (Yigal Amir). It has been in decline ever since and currently the Jewish left is having no impact whatever on the policies of the Israeli government or the Israel lobby. Just a point to keep in mind. This movement is going downhill, not uphill, and people need to ask themselves why that is happening.
With regard to the collective responsibility of ethnic, religious and national groups for the policies of their official representatives, I think that is an important question to think about.
I mentioned responsibility for the Iraq War by the American people. I could have also mentioned the Vietnam War, slavery, apartheid South Africa, Fascsist Italy, Imperial Japan, the Confederate South and on and on -- there are hundreds or thousands of examples.
How much responsibility do the Israeli people bear for the policies of their government and illegal Jewish settlements in the occupied territories? They voted Likud into office and in any case settlements expanded at even a faster rate under "left-wing" Labor than under "right-wing" Likud.
How much responsibility do Christians through the anti-Jewish eras of Christianity bear for its misdeeds? One could argue quite a lot and many serious minds have made that argument.
Certainly Germans as a whole were held responsible (and have held themselves responsible) for the crimes committed by German ethnic nationalism.
You wrote:
"Sean, are you seriously suggesting that you cannot see any distinction between engaging in a debate about “how the Jewish community is choosing to define itself” and the role of the Israel lobby and others in trying to promote war against Iran?"
Are you saying that you do not see the fundamental and central connection between the organized Jewish establishment defining Jewishness in terms of Jewish ethnic nationalism, Zionism and loyalty to Israel and the role of the Israel lobby in promoting all the policies it promotes -- including conflict and war with Iran?
The organized Jewish establishment -- headed by the Conference of Presidents (which in turn includes AIPAC as one of 50 component organizations) is the lead driver behind the Israel lobby. It claims to speak for the Jewish community as a whole and frames all its arguments in terms of the interests of "the Jews" and "the Jewish people." Most Americans by now have been conditioned to believe that the Conference of Presidents, AIPAC, Likud and the Israeli government DO in fact speak for the Jews and the Jewish people -- all of them that count. Any others are by definition self-hating Jews and quite possibly terrorists or terrorist sympathizers.
So, yes, I think this is an exceedingly important issue for discussion and should now be front and center for debate in American politics as the campaign to attack Iran from the Israel lobby grows ever more shrill.
Trends in Jewish communal politics in the US:
"On Iran, Most Americans Favor Diplomacy But Most American Jews Favor War – OpEd"
link to eurasiareview.com
"In a new University of Maryland poll of American public opinion, only 24 percent of those polled said they favor an Israeli strike against Iran’s nuclear program. A national poll of American Jews however, shows that 66 percent of them favor an Israeli attack on Iran."