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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
The anti BDSers are way louder than the BDSers Hop.
In their defense, they hate to tread carefully. If they cay it like it is, they might find their access to the press room revoked the next day.
You can probably thank his editor for that.
Only if you ignore the grand bargain that Iran offered Washington - to normalize relations, cut ties with Hezbollah, put it's nuclear program on the table and even play nice with Israel. The offer that Washington rejected yes.
Apart from that, it was business as usual.
Funny how you are your tribe went to great lengths to pretend otherwise with Ahmadinejad had the job.
So what was he trying to trick naive observers into believing when he hand picked his right wing stooge?
You people are a joke.
And a complete sideshow, seeing as all 16 US intelligence agencies and the Mossad agree Iran is not producing nukes, nor even decided to.
Absolute rubbish. The purpose of the sanctions has NOTHING to do with stopping Iran’s development. As I said, all 16 US intelligence agencies and the Mossad agree Iran is not producing nukes, nor even decided to, so the sanctions are pointless, but purely political.
As they say about opinions and a certain part of everyone's anatomy....and there has never been any efficacy for sanctions.
Strictly speaking, he has never denied the Holocaust. In fact, he gave a speech at the UN arguing that the Holocaust was used to justify Israel's creation. But either way, one would have to be truly insane to suggest that Holocaust denial should be justification for sanctions, let alone war.
Correction, that was supposed to be Rafsanjani not Katami.
Nice try but fail. Even before his first day on the job, Bibbi was calling for the world to resist diplomacy and apply more pressure.
As for Rouhani's statement, I'd call that an excellent first day - albeit a statement of the obvious.
A typically brilliant piece Nima.
I thought the same thing Annie, when I saw a report on the news which featured Bibi saying that it doesn't matter who the president is because it's the Supreme Leader who sets foreign policy.
When Khatami, the reformist, was president, the anti Iran hawks said the same thing. Then when Ahmadinejad was elected, Kahmeni's name was never mentioned. Now that another moderate has been elected, they've resorted to insisting he has no power.
But whatI find most reassuring is the cynicism about the Iran boogie man kabuki dance in Israel.
And yet Kerry clearly lacks the gag reflex to be able to insist that Russia not send anti aircraft missiles to Syria because it threatens Israel's security.
Yeah right Hop. That's why they invite Nakba deniers to discuss the Nakba and offer Susan Abuela an opportunity to appear as a token Palestinian.
I agree Donald,
A very entertaining article.
I can't help but wonder if it's really a coincidence that the female darlings of selective foreign interventionism - Samantha Power and Anne-Marie Slaughter - were not named as such to serve their said purpose.
I don't think so. Power's job will be the same as Suzanne Rice - to veto any resolution against Israel. he could have simply written a software application to do it.
As Phil has pointed out, Obama is placating Netenyahu in return for avoiding war with Iran.
I suspect your pharmacy got your prescription mixed up with that of a paranoid schizophrenic.
The mind boggles. She'll probably bring a knife and cut off her left breast.
Thanks for pointing out the sheer absurdity of Jonah's and Miriam's hasbra Tree.
I'm still laughing at Miriam's claim she is not a Zionist.
Yes Pamella Gellar, whatever you say.
The ICJ ruled the apartheid wall to be illegal, as it was a blatant instrument to steal and annex land beyond the 1967 borders.
False. 1,500 Palestinians are able to traverse the apartheid wall every week, so any determined suicide bomber would have absolutely no problem in getting into Israel. The reason suicide attacks ended is because Hamas declared an end to them in 2006.
There were no suciide attacks 25 years ago, so that proves that the Wall just another stage in the ongoing process of grabbing land.
Rubbish. As Miko Peled points out in his book, by 1993, the Israelis had decided that they had stolen enough land and built enough settlements and settlements infrastructure to render any Palestinian state an impossibility.
Funny how this Pamela Gellar mini me begins a comment by referring to me as "Stinko", and then preemptively complains about the inevitable criticism she will attract from reeling talking points from the Israeli MFA web site.
The Wall is a complete failure.
And of course, this has done absolutely nothign to slow down the ongoing process of land theft, ethnic cleansing and mass murder perpetrated by the Israelis, which again, proves that the Wall had nothing to do with security.
Chaim Wizemann himself said that there is not a single Palestinian who's life was not adversely affected by mass Jewish immigration.
The 1939 White Paper was a direct result of the negative impact it as having.
So strong that any negative reporting is derided as a concerted delegitimization campaign.
Yeah, I'm sure Eichman, Hess and co only represented themselves , not the Nazi party. Just a bad apples no doubt.
Without the occupation, there would be no terrorism. The Zionist terror gangs carried out 600 terror attacks in the 1940s. Are you now suggesting the British should have remained and erected separation barriers and check points?
The same way you would explain failed Zionist terror attacks against mainland Britain.
MI5 files: Zionist terrorist plotted to kill Winston Churchill
link to telegraph.co.uk
You don't have to. We know the context. It's OK to kill Palestinians but not OK to kill Jews and it's only terrorism when it happens to you.
What you really mean is that again, the Intifada was bad because memebers of your own tribe suffered. The fact is that Israel killed more Palestinian children than all the Israeli victims of the Intifada.
Rubbish. They were erected before the Intifada, and were part of the closure. They were part of the program to steal land.
The Apartheid Wall was also erected to steal land.
So that puts those issues in proper perspective - occupation, ethnic cleansing and land theft.
How long before Hophmi chimes in and criticizes this clip for taking the testimonies out of context?
So were you.
link to thetruthseeker.co.uk
You potta love the hasbrat projection here. The whole quest of settlements in the OT was to destroy the chance of a Palestinian state - and it was achieved by 1993.
But keep showing us the money.
Very good point Ecru.
Far from wanting to stem racism in the ranks, every one of them were brought up to be racist.
Blacks Africans could be seem most days in apartheid South Africa too.
You mean they were allowed to play in the park without being shot by a sniper? How wonderful for them!!
I have, and it is the most racist, aggressive, and hostile states I have ever been too.
Nor have any Palestinian terrorists - so taking your logic to it's conclusion - there are no Palestinian terrorists, including Hamas.
Why isn't a war criminal someone who has commited a war crime Hop? Aren't you banking on the wiggle room you get from denying that someone has been indicted because of political machinations?
Right Hop, because we all know that you pace the halls of your home, waiting for justice to arrive.
Yeah Hop, just like they saw through the games about Iraq WMD.
You people are a joke.
I wish the clip had included Henri Levy's answer. He has to be one of the biggest morons I have ever read.
@James- – You want more infrastructure for Israel to bomb in Palestine?
Amazing.
Yea right Hop. I guess the Times also failed to read the whole interview right?
Developing the economy and infrastructure. Right. That will go down well in the US as roads and brushes are collapsing and schools and police stations closed down.
Plus, more infrastructure simply means more targets for Israelto bomb anyway.
There's an interesting debate between Power and Jeremy Scahill on Democracy Now. Sadly, the are not debating about Palestine.
link to m.democracynow.org
What else is he going to do?
You hasbara lackeys really need to put up or shut up about your theory of an epidemic being the cause of death. If there was such an epidemic in the 1940s, then where is is recorded?
You’re too far gone to be helped apparently.
We have sufficient to have a pretty good guess, and given the historical events at the time, it's perfectly reasonable.
As the man said: There's no point trying to wake someone who refuses to be woken up.
There is no evidence to the contrary.
hasbara fail
Yes, let's see the quote and page number or it didn't happen.
All for a war started for Israel.
Yeah I'm sure it happens all the time Brian. When people die of natural causes, they dig up a mass grave and just dump the body among the bones of others.
Seriously, the lengths you are going to in order to deny the obvious just highlights the insanity of Zionism.
Are you going to pretend that this is a controversial argument? First of, Balfour and Lloyd George are both on the record as boasting they were Zionists.
In response to the Arab Revolt, during which 100 British Servicemen were killed, the British killed 6,000 Arabs and instituted collective punishment on the form of home demolitions.
In return for the more than 500 terrorist attacks by Zionist Jews over the last 8 years of the British Mandate, resulting in 169 dead British Servicemen, Churchill merely had this to say;
“They have shocked the world. They have affected strongly people like me, who in the past, have been consistent friends of the Jews and constant architects of their future. However, the British refrain from a violent response to acts of Zionist terrorism, even though the were seventyfive thousand British soldiers in Palestine”
They would have all bee buried in separate graves - so nice try, but fail.
Remind me when they were due to be declassified?
And then you might want to explain why declassified Israeli records which Benny Morris was allowed to review were reclassified so that no one could scrutinize. Morris' interpretation.
They are clearly pretty freaked out about this latest discovery because it would explode the whole idea that the Jews were facing annihilation in 1948. They gotta keep that claim to victim hood alive.
That's why Bibbi refuses to declassify a million documents from 1948, which were due for declassification, on the grounds of Israeli national security.
How they died and who killed them comes down to 2 possibilities. Either the Zioniost militias killed them, or the British, acting as agents for the Zionist leadership did.
Either way, they were murdered.
And mass graves dating back to a conflict, in the absence fo any other cause of mass deaths, proves that those those remains as the victims of the conflict. Some desperate hasbarats are trying to suggest there was a plague, but such a plague between 1936 and 1948 would be well documented.
You're as bad as Joan Peters.
Too funny. It's no secret that he Jews created Hollywood.
As Moshe Sharett was ending his career in the mid-1950s, he came to the conclusion that Israel cannot be ruled without deceit as if it's essential for the Jewish state's survival. He wrote just before resigning:
(Simha Flapan, p. 52-53).
You hasbarats as such masters of projection.
I can't wait for your rendition of how Palestine was a land without a people waiting patiently for a people without a land.
And if you had managed to squeeze in a little something about how the existence of children in the mass graved proves that Palestinians hate Jews more than they love their children, I might give you an ‘A++’.
To describe the Holocaust as widespread internecine bloodshed would be considered Holocaust denial, and it would be, because it completely avoids the fact that the bloodshed was the result of deliberate violence and it's motivations.
Even Obsidian debunked this claim, which pretty much proves the rest of your argument is but made up hasbara.
Yeah right Jon, and mass graves of Jews in Poland is not proof of the Holocaust, it is just evidence of the terrible toll WWII took on the Jews right?
Seriously, do you guys even hear yourselves when you type this shit?
If that were true, then you wouldn't mind providing a historical account of any fatal epidemics that took place in Palestine between 1936 and 1948 - other that typhus, which Zionist militias were dumping into water systems feeding large towns and villages?
The revolt against the British was in defiance of the British acting as the hired muscle of the Zionists, which ultimately led to their conquest of Palestine. You and your fellow hasbarats are going to extraordinary lengths to pretend that their grievances with the British had nothing to do with it.
No, it's journalistic-ally more than likely. You are simply clutching at straws and engaging in Nakba denial.
You really should be banned.
Again, if they found a mass graves of Jewish remains in Poland, would you or any of your fellow travellers be entertaining the possibility that they died of an epidemic?
BE is not an objective commentator. He has included numerous false statements and typical hasbara in his arguments - such as " failed attempted war of annihilation of the Jews in 1947-49" and “blood libel the Joos” , which tells us that you obviously can't tell the difference between fact and Foxman type hysteria.
Neither of those statements are object or correct.
Correct, and why were they killing Palestinians? Because they were crushing any dissent against their plans to open Palestine to the flood of Jewish immigrants into Palestine and the inevitable conquest of Palestine by the Jews. This violence on their part against the Palestinians continued right up until their withdrawal. In the last few months, they even assisted the Zionist militias in expelling Palestinians from cities like Tiberius.
How is that therefore, any difference from the Nakba itself?
Dead because of who's terrorism?
And I guess I’m just totally lost as to your gripe that the British were acting on behalf of the Jews, and in fact, little more than enforcers for Jewish conquest of Palestine.
After all, does it make any difference if victims of WWII were killed by the Germans or by their allies?
I see BE’s comment as entirely consistent with history and with the view that the British were co-perpetrators of al-Nakba in that without the British preparing the groundwork, it never would have happened
But that's not BE’s argument at all, so you are being utterly indigenous. In fact, his claim that the Palestinians made a " failed attempted war of annihilation of the Jews in 1947-49" implies that those graves are the filled with the remains of those who deserved their fete.
You're argument is beyond pathetic.
How would you feel about someone describing the deaths of millions of Jewsin 1939 as the terrible toll the WWII took on the Jews?
What idiocy! More than 10% of the population were fighters. What does it mean that 1% were killed?
I'm sure you would be surprised if Germany would allow mildly dissenting opinion on the Holocaust.
Yes, 6,000 to be exact. The revolt was against Jewish conquest of Palestine, and the British were acting on behalf of the Zionists.
Yet another text book example of a vile racist supremacist trying to salvage victim-hood from a massacre perpetrated by Israel.
Yes, it's called the Nakba. If there had been a mass graves of Jews found in Poland, you wouldn't be in such denial.
Yeah no Jews in that grave so no biggie.
Hey Bilal, I suppose Hebron 1929 wasn't a massacre either, you know, compared to the millions who were systematically disposed of during WW2
Or:
1. They will insist that these were planted there to make Israel look bad
2. They will insist these were all honor killings by Hamas
Of course the truth is that the Zionist militias killed thousands of Palestinians in 1948, so it's pretty obvious who was responsible.
Oh dear, that won't make Miriam6 too happy. She just linked to a post the other day insisting this was a myth
link to spiked-online.com
Christianity and Judaism preach the same.
Christianity and Judaism preach the same.
Christianity and Judaism preach the same.
Thanks for demonstrating that all 3 Abrahamic faiths are practically identical.
Wrong. Jew hatred has never been lower and long may that remain.
So does the Rabbinate.
That's why Israel is bad for Jews.
<blockquote The creation of a Jewish State was supported by some of the most liberal minds in history.
And opposed by most Jews. There is nothing liberal about supporting the expulsion of an indigenous population to accommodate Jews.
More Jews have died in Israel since it was created than the rest of the world, so clearly, Israel has not made Jews safe.
It should be added that there is nothing logical in the Warren Buffet having tens of billions while I don't have any.
That's about as obscene as saying that the Jews should be happy with Hitler being defeated. Why need a state?
Should they get over it too Norman?
That's not a reference, it's an unsourced quote that does not link to any official correspondence.
It wasn't rage, it was satire, which like so much else, clearly went over your head. Nevertheless, it's amusing to watch you conform that the Zionist idea of support means kowtowing or submission.
No wonder your fellow hasbarat, Obsidian, thinks that expecting the Israels to pay back a loan is malevolent.
The disaster for the Arabs started in 1947 and has been a disaster ever since, so clearly, your concern only relates to the Jews.
Yeah right, because we can all be thankful that the region has been spared instability and bloodshed....for Jews.
Has the wish to preserve an ethnocentric, supremacist state killed off any sense of decency, justice and regard for human rights in the minds of those that consider themselves intelligent people?
Why should I? I never suggested it wasn't. What I stated was that your reaction is typical of the outlandish sense of entitlements Israel has and that repaying a loan (based on very reasonable terms) is considered in your eyes to be unfair.
Given the nature of loans, aid, grants and largess the US pays to Israel today, it's little wonder you would consider a normal loan to be an outrage.
BTW. Prove that this US Import/Export Bank was repaid in full.
Tell that to your psychotic leaders who threatened to visit a Shoah on Gaza. But I agree with you that Israel's leadership lost the moral ground long ago.
The truth hurts.
Yeah, it's not like you haven't done that since participating in the comments section.
Or not, seeing as most of them had no connection to the territory anyway.
Cut the crap. They were expelled under threat of murder and no, most do not have citizenship elsewhere. That's why they are called refugees.
What you really mean to say it that it would deprive the apartheid supremacist state of it's supremacist status for Jews. For the Palestinian refugees, the chaos would be a holiday compared to the last 65 years.
False.
4,000 died fighting for Zionism in Iraq.
241 American servicemen died fighting for Zionism in Lebanon.
34 were murdered by Zionists in 1967 and the US government remained silent.
The US has vowed to go to war defending Israel.
Millions of Americans have gone without while money was sent to Israel.
Don't be sorry Mayham. You only have hasbara drek to recycle.
Really? Where is the link?
You conveniently forget that Israel has no legal claim or leg to stand on and that their attack on Egypt was an act of blatant aggression by them and the UK and France.
Yeah, like helping Israel cover us the attack on the USS Liberty, helping the Israelis with reconnaissance in 1967, trying to sabotage and water down UNSC242 and then throwing huge amounts of money at them.
I take it your reference to "going heavy" must be a euphemism for B&D.
We did already and with the exception of the charge that Israel would would not give up the settlements in the Sinai, Carter was right.
Opposition to Israel apartheid, criminality and land theft yes.
Under Carter, aid to Israel also sky rocketed.
And you Mayhem, are an Israeli sycophant fellating a donkey.
What part of "loan" don't you understand? Or have you become so accustomed to thinking in terms of loans and loan agreements to Israel - the kind that never get to be repaid because the US tax payer foots the bill?
With the exception of the charge that Israel would would not give up the settlements in the Sinai, Carter was right.
Begin threatened Carter with a media campaign blaming him for the failure of the talks if Carter insisted on withdrawal from the West Bank.
Ever since Carter’s opposition to Israel has been well documented.
Opposition to Israel apartheid, criminality and land theft yes.
Under Carter, aid to Israel also sky rocketed.
And Camp David 1978.
What we're witnessing is the spoiled brat mentality that if Daddy doesn't give them everything they want, and do everything they want done, it means Daddy doesn't love them.
I should at that Obsidian's attitude is typical if the Zionist mindset. Everyone is an enemy, even those they who are friends of Israel and go to extraordinary lengths for Israel.
Zionism is so rooted in a ghetto a d persecution mentality that it's adherents don't believe in friends - they are only assets.
There's a mistake in your assumption Ramzi. Hertzl and his adherents were never interested in Jews being assimilate and accepted. He was of the opinion that Jews were different and that anti Semitism was perfectly normal. In fact, he considered anti Semitism to be an asset to be explored.
As someone once pointed out, Zionism and Nazism shared the same belief that Jews did not belong in society. Talk about a tragic irony!
A superb essay Sam.
A bald-faced lie.
Without the US to twist the arms of other states and bribe and cajole them, the state would not have ever been internationally recognized.
Great come back Djin.
That's debatable because it is largely personal. Every one of us on this forum arrived at the same place, but how we got here is unique to all of us. While it might be instructive to others to hear it, I don't believe it has to scrutinized as a condition of membership.
Agreed, but that's quite a bit different from having to confess to complicity in the past.
Perfectly put.
If we are to be consistent in this regard, we should all have to fill out a questionnaire before being granted the privilege of posting comments and MW.
I would also be curios what Kathleen would consider to be an unsatisfactory answer, and what should be Medea's sentence were Medea to submit to such interrogation.
Key to what exactly? What does does it matter?
You could ask anyone their reasons for taking an interest in this topic and they would all give you an answer that it personal to them and unique. What one can say about Medea is that she is putting herself on the line more than most of us put together, so even if she arrived to the party last week, I still regard her courage and conviction as beyond reproach.
Seriously, I cannot understand what the fascination is other than being driven by a misguided need to scrutinize the motives of others.
There are many issues that people remain silent on. Look at all the US military entanglements since WWII. The public, made up of well and no so well informed people, were brainwashed into supporting these adventures. Does it make them culpable for not knowing that they were being lied to?
Again Kathleen, I draw your attention back to 911 and the Iraq war. I don't think one can full estimate how much impact that event had on alternative media and information sharing. The mainstream media was exposed as an instrument of government propaganda and trust in it's legitimacy suffered a mortal wound that it will never recover from. Blogs sprung up everywhere and Youtube was subsequently born. The sharing of information has exploded.
My interest in the I/P conflict was ignited by those events and an article I read on Counterpunch by Antony Lowenstein. I had a uneasy feeling about the I/P issue for years prior to it, but he articulated what I felt in a concise and eloquent manner. It was a clarifying moment that changed my outlook forever.
What you are also overlooking is that even intelligent people have been poorly informed about the topic. How many articles have you read by so called experts on the matter that are full of BS and historical untruths - even the ones who were not deliberately lying?
Look at even people like Jerome Slater, who has been active on the subject for so long - yet even he is still struggling to shake off the cobwebs of the Zionist supremacist mentality.
Even if you assume Medea had been made aware of the realities decades ago, have you considered how much time she would have required to inquire, investigate, question and assimilate the information to become an effective activist?
After reading Lowenstein's piece, I was to discover that it would take me the better part of a decade just to educate myself on the complexities of the issue just to be able to debate the matter competently with a typical Israeli propagandist - and I didn't have to deal with the backlash from a Jewish community that would alienate me.
And to make matters worse, we all know that reading and researching this topic is fraught with landmines of myth and false narratives, that we have to navigate.
I haven't had the experience of knowing what it is like to confront what you have been raised to believe and questions it's validity, but I would imagine that it can be a traumatic and excruciating process.
I really think you are being realistic Kathleen, and I say that as someone who has the utmost respect for you.
I recall that Phil cited 911 as the pivotal moment for him, which I totally relate to because it was for me too. It wasn't that I was holding my tongue or shying away from debate - it was that 911 and the aftermath was a catalytic event which woke me up.
While I am technically Jewish (my mother was Jewish by lineage) I was not raised Jewish or practice Judaism, I don't regard myself as complicit. I simply was not politically active in matters of foreign affairs.
I think the same can be said of many Jewish people.
What do we know about Medea Benjamin's political activities prior to 911? Are you suggesting Kathleen, that being Jewish in itself meant she was automatically an active participant in support for Israel's crimes? There are many intelligent people who have taken no interests in this subject - myself included until 911.
Have you heard Medea explain what it was that sparked her to take on this cause?
I simply don't accept that Medea should be scrutinized more than anyone else simply because she's Jewish. And to be perfectly honest, if we are going to obsess about setting these ridiculous moral bench marks for Jewish people who have experienced as moral awakening, for barriers of entry to Palestinian solidarity, then we are simply setting ourselves up for continued failure.
I agree Danaa and I don't really understand the indignation against Philand Medea.
Look at Miko Peled. He hasn't even heard about the Nakba until he left Israel and moved to San Diego. In fact, he hasn't even met a Pslestinian Arab.
Yet look at the journey he himself embarked on. Personally, I think it takes far kore courage to genuinely question your own belief system and change it based on evidence.
People like Phil and Nedea are an inspiration in my book.
Having recovered from the pasting she received the last time, Mieiam returns with her latest instalment of throwing everything , including the kitchen sink, at a comment - be it relevant to the topic or not.
It seems that the Hasbara mother ship is anxious to get out as much mis-information as possible and has given her instruction s to cover as many topics as in the one comment as comment space will allow.
It's not evidence, is Hasbara and it has been resoundingly debunked. Camp David, Olmert, all of it.
I thought the US withdrew from UNESCO when it admitted Palestine as a member. Why them do they still get to call the shots?
Where do you expect they need to return from? They can stay - they just have to learn to share and not expect to be privileged among their fellow citizens. And let's face it RJL, privilege is what this really means for you isn't it?
Have enough room in the SF bay area for them?
Seeing as a great many Israelis own foreign passports or have applied for them, those what wish to leave would obviously have little problem.
Obviously all that wish to remain. There's plenty of room.
How do expect a a serious, thoughtful answer to such an unseriousness question?
Page 3 of Hasbara manual: If in doubt and no talking points are working for you, cry out Holocaust.
Gelber also verified what Hostage said earlier, that Arab forces took the initiative without orders from the commanders.
FYI. The Haganah blew up Old Ottoman House in Jaffa on Jan 4th. They then blew up the Semiramis Hotel on January 5th, killing 20 Palestinians.
The Haganah were already attacking Palestinian villages and had expelled 300,000 of them by the time Israel Declared Independence. Even according to Gelber, the Haganah were already subjugating Arab villages inside the borders of the Jewish state.
A cruel joke indeed, to return to a booby-trapped home after managing not to get shot trying to get back to your property.
As did he roads between the road between Tel Aviv and Jewish Jerusalem for Arab vehicles. At least the road between Tel Aviv and Jewish Jerusalem was through Arab territory.
They wouldn;t have had to if the Zionist militias were not tring to capure Arab territory and illegalyl basing their forces outside the borders of the Jewish state.
Exactly. Glubb imposed on the Arabs, the partition plan. In a meeting between Ernest Bevine, the Labor Govt's foreign secretary, and Tafik Abul Huda, the Jordanian PM and Glubb, Bevine asked Abul Huda what he planned to do. Abul Huda stated that the plan was to send the Arab Legion to protect and keep the Arab part of Palestine. Bevin said that seemed the sensible thing to do, but do not invade the Jewish territory.
On the 2nd of May 1948, they met for the last time to find a solution for Jerusalem. They bough maps to show where the Jordanian army would stop and where they stopped is today, the border of Israel and the West Bank, which is how the West bank was created.
It's clearly false and nothing more than another variation of crying while shooting narrative. it simply makes no sense why it was suddenly too late after the war ended.
As Miko Peled documented in is book, his own family, and many of the other Zionist elite, were being offered the pick of the abandoned homes while the beds were still warm. They clearly never had any intention of having anyone stay.
It doesn't seem to be helping your failed argument. You were asked to provide the number of how many Legionnaires'went AWOL - you refuse to supply that number other than claiming it was "many".
Again, this has been debunked. Fighting broke out simultaneously from both sides, though the Zionist militias were far better prepared, and trained. they had after all, been planning this assault for over a decade.
Again that too has been resoundingly debunked. As Chomsky documents in his book, Fateful Triangle ;
"The fact is from November 1947 to May 1948 the Zionists were already on the offensive and had already attacked Arabs. In the months before Israel was declared, the Zionists had driven 300,000 non-Jews off their land. In the months before Israel was declared, the Zionists had seized land beyond the proposed Jewish State.
It wasn't fete that the Arabs failed to achieve results - it was that they were on the defensive from the very beginning. You're simply cherry picking the events that suit your hasbara and leaving out the events that preceded them.
Stop trolling and wasting our time. It's recycled and been trashed repeatedly.
Yes, that's the question I too would like to know, seeing as the ALA were small in number to begin with.
You've already been caught out repeatedly being wrong MN, and you admitted being ignorant of the facts, so it's you being argumentative. Kennedy wanted to successively complete the Johnson plan which required Israel to accepted the refugee "right" of return.
Give up. You've lost this round
Repeat after me,
Magic bullets don't exist.
That was 3 months after the Hagana were setting off bombs in Jerusalem and 4 months after a terrorist attack killing civilians carried out by the Palmach - December 18, 1947.
Israeli military historian Uri Milshtein wrote that Moshe Dayan justified the attack on the grounds that it had a "desirable effect" .
That is indeed a very important point SQ.
There are so many contradictions in that one argument. On one hand they claim they condemn the Palestiniasn as being rejectionists for not wanting to share the land or accommodate and welcome limitless Jewish immigration, yet on the other hand, they argue that allowing refugees to return threatens the Jewish character and majority in Israel.
So in other words, the Palestinians were apparently racist and intolerant for wanting to preserve the Palestinian character of Palestine, but it's perfectly noble and moral to preserve the Jewish character of Israel.
The other contradiction, as you point out, in the claim that there was no intention of expelling the Palestinians, but the insistence that they had to have a Jewish state with a Jewish majority where no such majority existed.
And to top it all off, they insist that the outcome (which is exactly what the Zionists wanted) was one freakish and unintended outcome.
Wow Hostage - you are ruthless in dispatching the hasbarats.
Love it!!
Rubbish. Qusair is a rebel stronghold and the Syrian army is winning. Every time the rebels get their buts kicked, they release BS propaganda about a massacre committed by the Syrian army.
Your Al Qaeda friends are getting their butts kicked and want help.
Picture MN as he closes eyes, puts hands on ears and runs around in a circle screaming "Not so. Not so. Not so. Not so. Not so. Not so."
How do you remember that? Are you in your 70s?
Agreed, but the narrative that has since surfaced is that they deserved their fete because they were complicit in the ensuing war. Again, it's amazing and sad that we get so easily sucked into debating this narrative when we should be using your first sentence to refute the hasbara position.
All the while Gilad and co will obsess over whether the Palestinian child being targetted has any malevolent intent in his heart and whether he might, at some point, pick ip a rock and throw it.
No, your analogy doesn't apply. Israeli Jews are responsible for the Nakba. The benefited from it and they elected leaders that continue to perpetrate it every day.
Would have made no difference. The panel included a Nakba denier, so there were no Israelis actively working for Palestinian freedom
Try reading your own links.
"When the Respect MP for Bradford West learned that Eylon Aslan-Levy, a student opposing it, was an Israeli citizen, he leaves, saying 'I don't debate with Israelis'."
Aslan-Levy wasn't just an Israeli - he was an opponent of Israel's withdrawal from the West Bank.
Seriously GL, you are simply digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole.
Don't be stupid. They live under an apartheid system.
No it's not. Israel is a democracy, meaning that the leadership and Israel's policies are the result of a majority mandate. That makes them all part of the pot.
I respect that Annie,
We both know Abulhawa is right, but I personally think she needs to get more specific with her facts. When anyone makes a broad reference to international law, it simply falls flat - I find even myself rolling my eyes when I hear it.
What I liked about Omer-Man was that he simply pointed out the fact that the Israeli Supeme Court recognized the occupation under the Geneva Accords. In one simple sentence he destroyed Marcus's argument.
Abulhawa could have been so much more effective had she just pointed out that all 15 justices of the ICJ rejected the arguments made by the Levy Report and that the claim that Israel has a right to remain in the West Bank until there is a peace agreement was rejected by the ACJ and Mitchell Report, as well as the fact that Israel withdrew from the Sinai before there was a peace treaty.
She could have pointed out that Jordan did not attack Israel but responded under the defense pact with Egypt, much as the allies did in WWII and that no one agrees the blockade was a justification for war.
Those are the kinds of specific arguments that cut through hasbara. Emotionalism simply doesn't work in this forum.
You have a point Annie,
She is tough and combative, and she has had some great moments, but for someone who lives and sleeps this topic, during debates, I find that she comes across as unprepared and very reactive.
She gives a great speech, she's intelligent and telegenic.
Yes, she whipped Dersh's butt at the Boston Book Festival, but by an large, she comes across as simply the opposite number of the right wing Zionist nut cases. I think Palestinian advocates really have to up their game in these debates. Repeating the mantra about international law, without specifics is futile, because the Zios come back with the same claim.
I think apart from Dersh and Abunima, the only really effective debater is Max Blumenthal.
Maybe it's just me Annie, but I personally find it hard to watch her in debates, because she undermines herself and squanders a lot of great opportunities. She has become a spokesperson for the Palestinians and I hope she learns with time how to become more effective and learn how to better reach the audience.
Here's an example. In just a few sentences of his opening remarks, Michael Omer-Man (Jerusalm Post) makes a stronger case (in her favor) than Abulhawa makes throughout the whole debate.
link to blip.tv
That's an absurd argument. The fact is that the victims of the Nakba and as such, it's for them to decide if and on what terms they will discuss the issue with Israelis.
You don't find too many German's invited to Holocaust commemorations do you?
Oh my, what an amazing observation. The Palestinians have so much to lose by not pandering to Israelis, so let's not risk them appearing arrogant or alienating Israelis - seeing as so many of them are lining up to help.
Yea, let's pretend tens of thousands of Palestinians have not been murdered for dissenting. Rachel Corrie wasn't murdered, she just tripped over in front of a passing bulldozer right GL? And Faruk Dogan, he wasn't executed by the IDF, he just died from an accident while fishing out at sea.
Yeah give the Israelis credit for dragging out the pain over 65 years. Great idea.
Yeah as there are in a murder and a rape. In those cases, the assailant is not usually given a platform to set the narrative of the debate. They get their day in court and after that, they are locked up and not heard from until they serve their sentence.
You've fallen victim to the delusion that Israelis will solve this mess once they figure out the truth. What you can;t get through your head is not that they are not aware of it, it's that they don't want to address it, or even worse, they insist it was justified.
Your precription amounts to giving more alcohol to an alcoholic to help him overcome his addiction.
We can all get unstuck when discussing these topics Donald, but if you're appearing on live television, surely you would prepare for it. That includes having the notes on hand to slap down the talking points.
I also recall Chomsky's point about conventional wisdom being easily repeated in a few lines. That is a very powerful weapon and a very difficult one to combat.
As they say, the lie makes it's way half way around the world before the truth has put it's boots on. And yes, debunking those lies takes a lot more time. We see that every day in the comment section where hasbara one liners are refuted by a paragraph or two.
In the case of Abulhawa, she sometimes gets overly aggressive out of the injustice of it all. The one time she got it right was debating Desrshowitz on stage, where she was able to remain calm and poised and he utterly lost it.
She should review how that worked so powerfully for her.
While I respect Susan Abulhawa and am 100% in agreement with her, I don't think she's a very good spokesperson on this issue. I saw her in a recent debate on RT, and she gets too easily rattled and irrational to argue her pints effectively. She comes unstuck too easily.
To argue this topic effectively, one has to be able to remain cool headed, listen to the Hasbara from the other side, and nick the talking points off one at a time - the way Fink used to do with such skill.
Absolute rubbish of course.
The only state that considers them disputed out of the 194 member of the UN is Israel. Not even the US regards them as disputed. In fact, not even Israel considered them disputed until they were able to illegally take the land by force.
The San Remo treaty said nothing about a Jewish state, so if you want to go back to that agreement, you will have to tear up Israel's declaration of independence along the borders stipulated by UNGA181 of 1947 and return the territory in the state called Israel to the state of Palestine.
That democratic Palestine would not be a Jewish state either under the intent of San Remo or by democratic process. So that makes you a proponent of the extinction of the state of Israel.
The 1947 UN declaration excluded the territory in the West Bank from the Jewish state. The resolution did not require either side to accept it, so your argument is DOA anyway.
On top of this, Rabbi Silver's statement to the UNSC on Friday, 5 March 1948:
“Nevertheless, reluctantly but loyally, we accepted the decision which appeared fair and reasonable to the United Nations”
“We feel under the obligation to make our position unmistakably clear. As far as the Jewish people are concerned, they have accepted the decision of the United Nations. We regard it as binding, and we are resolved to move forward in the spirit of that decision. “
link to unispal.un.org
That means that Israel gave up any claims to the territory outside it's 1947 borders, so they could not ever be disputed from that moment forth.
So to sum up, your argument is absolutely garbage from A-Z.
No, it's just a backdoor way of providing Israel will weapons without paying for them and keeping them off the budget sheet allocation for Israel.
Sounds like a clear liability.
So why does it have to be explicitly mentioned in this bill that only Israel has that right and not the US?
This bill is being proposed for Israel's benefit, not America's. The silly one is you.
Yes, Zionist nut cases are always fans of McCarthyism and crack downs on freedom of speech. It goes with their fascist ideology.
No, it affirm that right wing Zionists are working overtime to crush free speech and criticism of Israel. They, like you, are clearly scared that awareness Israel's pariah status is becoming mainstream.
Yes, we know all about the Jewish Defense League.
That's because a Palestinian state based om pre '67 borders would indeed span the river to the sea. But we know how relieved yo must be that Israel has killed that possibility.
Obviously you have never been to Israel and know nothing about it.
"We are racist. Israel is a very racist society. I know what olim have gone through over the past 20 years. Our nation does not know how to receive new immigrants," Landver says in a wide-ranging interview ahead of next week's Ashdod Conference on Immigration and Absorption. The main topics to be discussed during the event will be "Racism in Israeli Society," "The Immigrant Youth Crisis" and "Absorption Economics - Government Policies Versus Implementation."
link to jpost.com
Israel is the most racist state in the industrialized world. It actually institutionalizes racism.
A night of apartheidA succession of speakers at a three-hour conference in Jerusalem broadly agree that the ‘A word’ describes the status quo; the one dissenting panelist gets seven minutes
link to timesofisrael.com
South Africa is already here
The government is trying to build a protected autonomy for the Jewish majority and a stunted autonomy for the Arab minority.
link to haaretz.com
It's easy to be plucky when you have the IDF thugs standing right behind you. I'm sure there were plenty of "plucky" Nazi citizens who spoke out publicly against demonstrations against Nazi policies in the 30s.
Hey Gilad,
Don’t you think it is time to declare the so called passive Israeli security apparatus, nothing more than a fascist apartheid force and that Israeli public opinion is too far gone to be reasoned with?
What does a messianic cultist know about truth let alone Ghandi? Remember that the British described Ghandi in much the same way you are describing Palestinians. And if there was a Palestinian Ghandi, he'd be in an Israeli prison anyway.
So did Israel's founders. After all, that's what they ordered the Haganah to do.
I am not sure what you are trying to get at here Citizen. If you didn't share this hope, then why would you bother conning back to this blog day after day and participating in they discussion?
I know if I had lost hope, I'd give up reading about it, let alone following blogs on the issue.