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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Didn't you get your state at Palestonian's expense Oleg?
I can't believe you stepped right into the dog turd.
Israelis make it so easy to make.
And we an’t figure out why would any liberal defend Netenyahu, or Sharon, or Olmert, or Barak.
Insulted after he issued isults all round to anyone who callegened his arguements, most recently, his derranged just war argument - which of course, he is willing to apply to anyone but Israel.
Slater is intellectually bankrupt. He is clearly capable of lucid thinking, but he remains commited to the cause of Jewish supremacy, though he would never admit it.
Hell, when he was last here, he found common cause with eee of all people.
I agree Dana,
In spite of all his motal posturing, there Slater is little daylight between he and Beinardt.
His juvenile tantrums and continued commitment to Jewish exceptionliasm - not to mention his love of "just wars", mean I don't take him seriously either.
Slater is just another Zionist gatekeeper, though he liked to operate behind enemy lines.
So will war, racism, greed, disease, famine, poverty - but I see no reason to agrandize any of them either.
That's funny, seeing as most religious ideology and rationale is rediculous.
Even Slater is not immune to this blatant contradiction.
Now why would that happen if there was no gaps between the US and Israel with respect to Iran's nuclear program?
While I see where you come from Avi, if merging cultures means an end to suffering and human rights abuses, it's a fair compromise.
Immigrants to the US, Canada, Britain, Getmany and Australia are generally expected to learn the local language to get ahead, so one would expect the same in Israel.
As for cultural heritage, it's never static anyway. Indiand is the defacto local cuisine in London.
And that remains the logic to this day.
Especially when you factor in the interest the US pays on that money (which is borrows) and the interest it then pays to Israel on that money when Israel uses it to buy treasuries.
How so? Meir Dagan and Anthony Codersman have both stated that Israel is a strategic liability.
Sio what part of Israel was Jerusalem in 1948? Oh that's right, none of it, so thanks for proving my point.
Bombing is not an invasion. Try harder.
Which is precisely what Israel had been doing since December 1947.
An act fo war and agression. Again proving my point. This is too wasy.
But after declaring independence Israel just held its positions.
Outide it's borders, which made the holding of those positions abn act of agression, and anyway, they were seizing more territory, not holding.
They chose to engange them, bevasue the Israelis militias had been engaging Palestinians for 5 months and expelling them and destroying their villages.
So yes, it was very much defensive. The Israelischose to attack the Arabs and as Ben Gurion predicted, the Arab armies came to their aid.
Alternatives might have included Israel not starting a war, but then again, Israel had alrady been bombing the British and gave the bird to the UN when they suggested revisting the UNGA181 plan.
That's exactly waht Jordan did, as per the agreement with the British.
Or Israel could have done that, but that might have meant allowing the refugees to return, and that would have spoiled Ben Gurion's plans to "expell the Arabs and take their places".
Point being, as the Director of the Office of United Nations
Affairs (Rusk) has predicted:
“The Jews will be the actual aggressors against the Arabs. However, the Jews will claim that they are merely defending the boundaries of a state which were traced by the UN and approved, at least in principle, by two-thirds of the UN membership. The question which will confront the Security Council in scarcely ten days’ time will be whether Jewish armed attack on Arab communities in Palestine is legitimate or whether it constitutes such a threat to international peace and security as to call for coercive measures by the Security Council. The situation may be made more difficult and less clear-cut if, as is probable, Arab armies from outside Palestine cross the frontier to aid their disorganized and demoralized brethren who will be the objects of Jewish attack. In the event of such Arab outside aid the Jews will come running to the Security Council with the claim that their state is the object of armed aggression and will use every means to obscure the fact that it is their own armed aggression against the Arabs inside Palestine which is the cause of Arab counter-attack."
You did not mention the presence of Israeli force, which is an entirley different argument. The forces were illegally stationed there. Their presence was an act of agression.
False. There was no invasion of Israel, so you are lying. The bombing of a Tel Aviv Central Bus Station is not an invasion. Hamas rockets striking Sderot do not constitute an invasion.
Rubbish. Israel alrady had an airforce and aitni aircraft artillery.
Not an invasion either. After the cross border skirmish in 2006, Israel began bombing Southern Lebanon for 2 weeks before there was any invasion.
Right after you provide the legal evidence that the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank was illegal. It's been weeks so I am getting a little impatient.
You're certifiably insane. I asked you a very simple question. You declared that Jordan’s actions were illegal. Now assuming you have not been appointed a world court judge, one has to assume you came to this conclusion based on what you read with regard to it’s legality.
What is so absurdly specific about asking proof of illegality? Hostage has already debunked your claim that the UN isn't a legal body – the fact that the UNSC can pass enforceable resolutions proves you wrong - but he ICJ certainly is, so let's start there. In fact, let’s lower the bar even further, how about citing any court ruling anywhere!!
You've clearly given up even trying to make sense, and are just retreating into your bubble of paranoid delusion. It's beyond ridiculous that anyone can claim that the same body that gave 56% of Palestine to 30% of the population (who only had ownership of 7% of land at the time), and admitted them as full members, can accuse it of being biased against it. In fact, Israel was admitted to the UN a year after Jordan took control of the West Bank and EJ. If the UN was so biased against Israel, why did they admit them as members, especially seeing as Israel’s militias were already situated beyond Israel’s declared borders?
What tactics? Israel’s intransience is there is black and white within the preamble of UNSC 242. You really are making an utter spectacle of yourself.
Prove it. No one believes a thing you say, so you’d best back it up with a source.
Yes there is. Hostage has already explained this to you, but here goes again:
All refugee communities, whether those under the care of UNRWA or UNHCR, have their refugee status passed through the generations while their plight remains unresolved. Refugees in Kenya administered by UNHCR are a good example. In this regard, the accusation that UNRWA uniquely perpetuates the Palestine refugee problem is ignorant of international refugee law and practice.
link to ynetnews.com
Yes, it's a treaty based on customary intertional law. Treaties that violate customary intertional law are DOA.
It would if that's what Jordan did, but that's not the case. Jordan didn't invade anyone. It entered territory (as per the agreement with the British), to defend the Arab portion of Palestine, just as the US did with Kuwait when it was invaded by Iraq. Jordan then put the annexation to a vote. Invasions require a military force to arrive without the consent of the resident population.
Again, if it was illegal, then cite the proof. Don’t just stamp your feet and expect to be taken seriously.
No it didn’t. You described it in context of the 1948 war, not something that took place 22 years later and 3 year after Jordan had lost control of the West Bank and EJ. It was not a massacre to quell Palestinian independence in the West Bank.
No, they attacked Israeli forces based in Palestine. The forces were stationed around the settlements.
Yeah, UNSC meaningless. And reality is whatever you are able to pull out of your a##
Youve become a joke here PFP. Maybe it's time you moved on to turf where you can get away with peddling your BS.
Stop fillibustering. I asked you for anything that proves the annexation was illegal, be it UN resolution, ICJ ruling or any ruling by an equally legitimate legal body.
You said it was illegal. How do you know if you have no basis for that conclusion? You’d think that the Zionists, with all their resources, would have found a legal basis to accuse Jordan of behaving illegally. They’ve had 64 years to come up with one.
It's only clear and obvious once it's been established by a legal body, so who ruled that Jordan had no right?
It's not incumbent upon me to prove legality. You’re the one claiming it was illegal. So where is your proof?
That might be relevant if there was mention of limited right of return.
You're still flying by the seat of your pants PFP. These findings did no set precedent . They were based on customary law, which was in place in 1948.
What are you babbling about? Refugee law is a law. What else do you think it is?
<blockquote< Treaty regarding a specific conflict. aka: not a law.
Dayton was based on refugee and customary international law, so yes it is.
What do you mean failure to uphold even a single aspect? You only cited one alleged violation.
Perhaps, but that is not evidence that the annexations was illegal.
Rubbish. The massacre took place AFTER Jordan has lost control of the territory.
As always Hostage, it's immensely satisfying wathing you shredding PFP's and Oleg's sophomiric BS.
If only your incredible posts weren't wasted on such amateurish drek!!
You realize that the Arab states attacked Israeli settlements within what was the Mandate Palestine area, right?
There might have been as a consequence of fighting close to the border, but they certainly didn't launch any kind of invasion on Israel.
Israel was already in the Arab territory of the UNGA181 partition, so yes, it was a defensive war. Jordan made a pact with Britain to defend the Arab territory and not invade Israel. Britain agreed to those terms and we have proof in the form of the Armistice line, which lies outside of the ISraseli 1048 border.
There was 1973 technically , but that was blowback for 1967.
"THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open to the immigration of Jews and for the Ingathering of the Exiles from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice and peace as invisaged by the prophets of Israel; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex; will guarantee full freedom of conscience, worship, education and culture; will safeguard the sanctity and inviolability of the shrines and Holy Places of all religions; and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations."
link to brijnet.org
You're a master of ignoring the obvious.
It's absurd that you believe that and yes I do.
link to haaretz.com
link to ynetnews.com
Bibbi only agreed to a butchered concept of a Palestinian state in May/June 2009 after much arm twisting.
link to msnbc.msn.com
According to what evidence PFP? You don't do yourself any favors by making stuff up and refusing to source it.
Actually, the word used in property, not homes, and it certrainly does not say they do not enjoy the right to return to their country.
How do you know what was "intended"? How do you know Jordan never intended for its annexation to be temporary? You make all these blatant statement without so much as producing a single link or citation.
BTW. Hostage pointed out that the Jordan became a trustee trustee only at the instance of the Arab States.
Please stop being such a lying idiot. You're not even reading the entire passage of Artilce 24, which reads:
This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area.
There was no relinquishing, it stipulated that it would not "exercise any territorial sovereignty" while Jordan was holding it. There is no mention that anything was relinquished.
Your link does not even mention how many East Jerusalem Palestinian permanent residents have applied for Israeli citizenship.
Sorry, but you're just making a fool of yourself by including the Hebron Massacre, which took place nearly 20 years ealier as evidence of systematic ethnic cleansing. The evacuation of Jews from Hebron wasn't even carried out by Palestinians, but by the British.
Was it not AFTER the Zionist leaders have accepted the partion of UNGA181? The borders were very clear, and Israel's letter to the US explicitly referred to these borders.
First of all, the Palestinians that remained were not allowed out of kindness on the part of Israel so much as pressure from the Vatican and secondly, the Jewish population in Jerusalem and the West Bank was tiny compared to the Palestinian population originally inside Israel.
Cut the BS PFP. Either come up with a ruling that the annexation was illegal or shut up. You've had long enough to think about it.
Because the area it outside of Israel's border and doing do is a violation of the 4th Geneva Convention. Furthermore, ISrael is not simply allowing Jews to return to that area, it is trasporting it's population to the area, while simultaenously expelling Palestinians.
If this was about "allowing" Jews to return to Jerusalem, then logic would dictate they allow Palestinians to also return home.
That was not the agreement Jordan had with Britain.
If Israelis wanted peace so badly, I guess they wouldn't have assassinated Rabin, much less elected the man who incited the hostility against him - Netenyahu.
Just like Israel did to the Mizrahi Jews from the Arab States right?
Or did the Mizrahi request those?
Don't make more of an idiot of yourself, of course it means something:
1. The Arab League had informed the UN ahead of tone if their intentions. The UN entered no objection and neither did the British
2. This was 1948 and tgr same UN had just voted to give the Jews 56% of Palestine, do your line argument that they were biased against the Jews fails at the first hurdle.
First of all, that doesn't prove anything one way or the other about the UN in 1948, secondly, Israel had shot itself in the foot by bombing UN targets in Lebanon, so put that down to typical Zionist monumental stupidity.
That's because Israel has been in the business if human right violations for a lot longer.
Judging by the links you provided, the data from the studies is kargy open to interpretation.
Interestingly, one if your links even argues that these studies suggest the lineage is only 2000 years old, which implies Judaism is no older than Christianity.
I have, and the reviews are either hysterical polemics accusing Sand of Jew hatred or they agree with some if Sand's findings and refute others.
True, but then it would be pretty difficult to make Zioni look any macabre and sadistic than it looks today.
Most Israelis would welcome the creation of a Palestinian state provided that its existence brought more stability and security to the region.
False. Netenyahu was elected on a platform opposing a Palestinian state. This plicy remains central to the Likud Chater.
False again. The majority support the settlements.
No it hasn't.
First of all, none of your links discuss the fact that the whole people’s old thing was invented in the 1800. Secondly, Kazars themselves iroginated from Turkey, so they would be considered Middle Eastern.
Geneticist Prof. Mazin Qumsiyeh (Yale, Duke), in chapter three of his book, Sharing the Land of Canaan (“Biology and Ideology”), explains that such studies generally fail to adequately examine genetic similarities between Ashkenazi Jews and Turkic/East-European populations. Markers present in “Middle Eastern” populations are generally present in Turkic or East European populations as well. Iraqi Jews could thus have the same markers as say German Jews, but from different sources – Iraqi Jews from their genetic similarity to Arabs, and German Jews from their genetic similarity to Turkic or East-European populations. An Italian study (Poloni et al., 1997) that did take such factors into account showed Ashkenazi samples to be closer to Turkic than to Sephardic samples.
Prof Qumsiyeh also writes:
In any event, the dispossession of the native Palestinians by Ashkenazi immigrants from Europe cannot be justified by population genetics. After all, one woud have to be blind to the basic elements of justice to allow the dispossession of people who are native in every sense of the word and whose ancestors farmed the land for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Further, it is even more unacceptable for natives to be dispossessed to favor members of a particular religion and converts to that religion, but not converts from that religion to other religions. To use genetics, however accurate or deceptive, to justify an ingathering of people of the Jewish faith while denying Palestinian people the right to their homes and lands is a travesty. Genetics and eugenics [discussed earlier in the chapter - shmuel] have been used in many other instances to support unjustifiable acts of oppression and human rights violations. We should learn the lessons of history.
It doesn't matter wheer he came from seeing as he never existed.
If that were true, Israel's bordes would still be along the 181 partition. frotiers.
Like Tony Judt said, because Isael missed out on the 19th century, it feels as though it should be entitled to behave as though it were the 19th century.
For thousands of years, people practiced slavery and human sacrifice. No doubt that too has been prohibited to "screw the Jews".
So you've read all those books and yet when I simply asked you to produce a legal ruling or UN resolution supporting your repeated allegation that Jordan's annexation of the West Bank and EJ was illegal, you came up empty.
All you could do was ask us to prove it was legal, which in itself stands as a deficit admission you were wrong. So what books have you been reading?
Is it any surprise that Talknic's revelations are "SO wildly different than anything" you've "ever read about the conflict"?
Do you ever stop to think before you type the first piece of garbage that comes to your head, or do you get a perverse thrill from being repeatedly humiliated in this forum?
"The term right of return refers to a principle of international law, codified in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, giving any person the right to return to, and re-enter, his or her country of origin"
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
The right of return is also a customary norm of international human rights law and can be found in a plethora of international conventions, including the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, as well as regional human rights treaties. The general prohibition against forcible expulsion is also incorporated into international human rights law.
Finally the right of return is also a very important element of refugee law. The principle of refugees' absolute right of return to their place of origin (including their homes) is central to the implementation of durable solutions. According to UNHCR Executive Conclusion No. 40, "(a) The basic rights of persons to return voluntarily to the country of origin is reaffirmed and its is urged that international cooperation be aimed at achieving this solution and should be further developed."
The US-sponsored Dayton Accords is a very good example of a treaty that makes strong provisions for the return of people displaced by armed conflict. Following three years of interethnic civil strife between Serbs, Muslims and Croats, the warring parties initialled a peace agreement on 21 November 1995, in Dayton, Ohio (the final agreement was signed in Paris on 14 December 1995).
The right of almost 2 million Bosnian refugees to return to their properties, or to receive compensation if this was not possible, was enshrined in the peace agreement.
The most significant provision of the Dayton Agreements for the purposes of this discussion is contained in the Annex VII Agreement on Refugees and Displaced Persons.
Article I of this Annex states that:
1. All refugees and displaced persons have the right freely to return to their homes of origin. They shall have the right to have restored to them property of which they were deprived in the course of hostilities since 1991 and to be compensated for any property that cannot be restored to them. The early return of refugees and displaced persons is an important objective of the settlement of the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Parties confirm that they will accept the return of such persons who have left their territory, including those who have been accorded temporary protection by third countries.
2. The Parties shall ensure that refugees and displaced persons are permitted to return in safety, without risk of harassment, intimidation, persecution, or discrimination, particularly on account of their ethnic origin, religious belief, or political opinion.
Which polls are you referring to?
Putting aside the fact that Israel has leg to stand on (given it destroyed hundreds) of villages, then burrows them in pine Forrest plantations.
This is simply rubbish of course. Jews and Christians were barred from entering East Jerusalem, the ban applied to citizens and residents of Israel, including Muslims. I personally know a Jewish couple to travelled to EJ in 1965.
Obviously you're a pathological liar. First you criticized the Jordanians for cutting the Palestinians lose when it dissolved the joint union, now you're alleging the denied them self-determination for offering the Jordanian citizenship.
FYI. Self determination can be exercised by a minority group within a state - if that state permits it.
Is there anything you're not prepared to lie about?
There are plenty of people from "your group" who have rediculous and shone a light on the fragment chain of people hood.
Shlomo Sand has already reveled that the whole people's old thing was invented in the 1800s, as a means of resuscitating what was otherwise a dying religion.
You gotta hand it to them. The rebranding worked.
The same is true of Catholics and Catholic churches, yet they don't call themselves a people.
You mean like you Zio fundies have been doing with the Pakedtinians all this time?
So if the Palestinians decide they are a people, is it fair to say you have no say otherwise?
Where did all those grants, forgiven loans and loan gurantees (loans Israel has never repaid) gone PFP?
That's like saying you can 't be Jewish because you ceased to be one when you grew up and became an adult.
What terrible pressure are they under and which borders are you referring to?
As opposed to the Israeli far right, who now has a 75% super majority?
Are you being sarcastic Krauss?
What about this one Sumud?
Denial "The perpetrators... deny that they committed any crimes..."
Fascinating post Avi.
Of course we do Giladg. The number is 1/10th the number of Palestinians hat have died or been injured.
Why does only the number of Israelis count Gilad? Is it that Jewish fingernail thing?
And the Israelis are responsible for many many more barbaric acts of terror. So wouldn't normal, healthy thinking says hang on, becasue the Israelis perpetrated far more and far worse acts of terror and war and that many more Palestinians had died as a result, then a price that needs to paid and those responsible - ie. Israelis - need to be held accountable to a far greater degree.
And futhermore, applying your yardstick further, if rockets are fired into Israel and kill no one, the Israel should not retaliate. And if a rockets kills one person, Israel should only kill one person is response.
Do you agree?
Not one mention in his diatribe about Palestinian rejectionism of an independent Jewish state.
That's probably because:
A. There is no such thing
B. Israel rejects an independent Pakestinian state
Probably because Israel stands as a monument to the success if terror. Israel is a state of the terrorists, by the terrorists and for the terrorists.
As are all the Jewish experts who can't seem to agree on it.
Save us from vile racist supremacist schmucks like Oleg and messianic cultists like Netenyahu.
Oh I dunno, probably becasue no one in the West does unless they are serial killers. Handling and disposing of such waste is taken care of by specialized services who go to great lengths to abide by health regulations.
Give it a rest Fred.
This is no different to the bashing the Israeki cops gave that Jewish kid who wore a kipa with a kuffiyeh embroided on it, while waving a Palestinian flag.
I forget the kids name, but if that's what these thugs are prepared to do to Jews, then this video is only a taste of what goes on wgen Palestinians are involved.
Don't forget that reading out aloud the names of arabs towns destroyed by Israel will also get you arrested.
Very true Shmuel and what's most saddistic, is that Oleg doesn't even realize it. Jews get to have their cake, while eating the cake of the Palestinians, and he thinks that's humanism.
Unless you're proposing one democratic secualr state in Palestine, then you're simply a facist supremacist. You want Israel to be Jewish, but the territories to be shared.
Sticking your head in the sand is not going to make reality go away. You simply regard Jews are more deserving and havign more rights than Palestinians. Unless you're advocating opening the borders and allowing Palestinians and Jews in all of Palestine to move about freely within all of Palestine, then you are one and the same with the Yitzhar settlers.
Simple, the Palestinians should adopt en mass non violent protests approach (and they haven't so far as we can see in this case) and they should go back to the negotiation table.
What for? The Israelis are dishonest lying thieves. They don't honor the agreements they sign and ratify (see Road Map), so what do they hope to gain by reaching yet another far worse agreement that Israel won't honor anyway.
Unless you mean peace to be submission to Israeli dominance.
Then simply put, you're part of the problem, not the solution. Talking to you is as futile as talking to Bibbi.
You're so oblivious to the status quo that it doesn't occur to you that violence has already broken out. For Palestinians live with it every day. For you are your cultist tribe, it's just sport.
So when you refer to violence breaking out, you're referring to violence coming the other way.
Oh really? How do you think those settlers got there?
Then there is no common ground for dialog, because you will only accept dialogue on your terms. You're no different that Bibbi in that regard. Talking peace while stealing land. In your case, talking peace while your side continus acts fo violence and thuggery, but turning your back on peace when the favour is returned.
There's mo fire in that clip anywhere.
None of which show any fire.
No. At 2:02, the camera pulls back to the same spot and there is nothing there.
What complexity is the video shoewing that we are missing?
Wow, I’m not sure whether you're deliberately inviking monumenral idiocy or just doing it accidentally.
Another shared value with Israel bites the dust.
That situation exists because of the illegal, immoral and inhumane occupation and land theft polcies of Israel.
Or unless he was a goy living on a plot of land you had your eye on right?
The Palestunians have a right to do whatever they damn well please on their own land.
I they want to plant bombs on their side if the fence dressed in spandex and leotards, that's their business.
They are only required to dress in military uniforms when UN enemy territory.
And please remind us how tennis outfits in Dubai are not an example of pefidity.
In other words, that's a bit like saying that the murder of Fogel family was not murder, but a pre- emptive attack, given the proclivities of ISraeli settler terrorists to unleash violence on the Palestinians.
No, conclusive proof would be a bomb that they woudl have seized. After all, tehre was no explosion, so where are the bombs?
The same goes for teh occupied territories. Any Israeli who goes there is either a terrorist or someone who is ignoring their own safety.
By your own standards, the Fogel family had it comming to them.
Please explain this Samuel.
1. What were the 265 Israeli civilian targets?
2. How did Gazans manage to target 265 Israeli. Ivorian targets without guidance systems?
3. How many bombs and shells did Israel fire into Gaza since Jan 2012?
4. What do you expect to have happened after Israel broke yet another ceasefire last October? Do you think breaking ceasefires is an effective way to stop rockets being fired?
Yeah, so much so that they place the residents of Asheklon and Sderot in danger every time they break a ceasefire.
If you think that Israeli Soldiers are indiscriminately firing tank shells you are misinformed as to how the military works.
I agree, there is nothing indiscriminate about the way the IDF targets civlians. It is part of a deliberate policy of terror, as Mordecai Gur(Israeli politician and the 10th Chief of Staff of the IDF) told Ze'ev Shiff from Ha'aretz.
The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets.
Exactly. Especialy seeing as Israel plants landmines on territory it has no claim to.
Yeah, just like the Zionist militias stopped planting dressing up as Arabs and planting bombs in hotels - it ended when the British left.
That is, until the Lavon Affair, when they planted bombs in Egypt.
So where are the bombs Fred? Or should the IDF simply kill all of them just in case?
Especially when place X is land you've stolen.
A bit like, if Israel destroys a village or wipes a country off the map, did they ever exist?
Another nail in the coffin of the claim that Arafat walked away from a generous offer at Camp David or the BS Clinton said about Arafat dissapointing him,
Great pictures Dan
Superbly done as lays Hostage
There's also this detil that Hasbrats like Samuel T love to sweep under the carpet. In June 2006, HRW published a report which stated, among other things:
The IDF has fired more than 7,700 shells at northern Gaza since the Israeli withdrawal in September 2005, creating a problem of unexploded ordnance in heavily populated areas.
link to hrw.org
Yes, and they continue to do so. Of course, if Iron Dome worked, there would be no need to continue doing so.
Yes, when Israle bombs Iran, it will be doing it with Israel made warplanes no doubt....except that they don't exist.
Allowed, AFTER Israel broke ceasefires (ie. no rockets) in 2008 and 2011.
Except that Iron Dome is a complete dud and even then, it could nto have been developed without US money.
link to haaretz.com
With who's money and who's technology? Who you gonna steal military secrets from if the US leaves you alone?
Yes, the crimes against humanity would make those visionary founders blush.
Is Orem suggesting that tehre are more rockets in Gaza and Lebanon than in Israel? Does Oren have such comtempt for teh public that he expects them to believe a Katusha or Qassam even comared to the lethality of a 1000lb bomb?
Olmert just exposed this as a lie. That's the problem with Hasbra - it has a limited shelf life.
Palestinians have rebuffed Israel’s peace offers not because of the settlements—most of which would have remained in Israel anyway, and which account for less than 2% of the West Bank—but because they reject the Jewish state.
Notice how Olmert brings up 1993, and the claim that Israel recognized "the Palestinian people", not a Palestinian state, but himself ignores that the PLO recognized Israel in return, not to mention that the PLO also gave up claims to the territory that lay between Israel's 1948 border and the 1949 Armistice Line?
You have to love he hyperbole here. Where else but Gaza does Hams even exist?
Even the ones stipulated in the 2002 Road Map that Israel signed and ratified.
You can't, especially when senior AIAPC people already baosted publicly about doing so.
What, no settign for "move out of you house, there's a Jewish family that has their eye on it"?
Like they say, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
With regards to Bar Rafaeli:
Jewish extremists to model Bar Refaeli: Don't marry DiCaprio
link to haaretz.com
This probably explains the 29 standing ovations Netenyahu received. Any more proof needed of how ignorant members of Congress are on the subject?
I almost hate to say it, but while I suspect most Israelis secretly wish Arafat was still alive, I would happily trade Netenyahu for Sharon.
Wow, now that is a speech I could listen to without feeling nauseous. This speech puts Hogue's speech to shame. It wasn't about him and his needs, it actually dealt with the humanity of the Palestinians. Other than Hogue's oratory masturbation, this was a true display of regard and empathy for humanity ratehr than just one's delusional tribal fixation.
Come on Shunra, what's the problem with hide-and-seek? Surely, it's no more sinister than a couple of kinds sending loving messages to kids in in other countries.
You hear that Shunra? So if you have to come across of Himler's or Goebells memoirs, bear in mind that they you'll be reading about their personal struggles and their humanity and their struggle with inconsistencies in socialism.
So next time you hear a right wing settled teenager, living in land that was stolen from a Palestinian family, spare a thought that she might have broken a fingernail as she spat of the fleeing family.
Too right, so listen here Shunra. If you were angry about the ethnic cleansing of 800,000 Palestinians, mass murder, home demolitions and destruction of hundreds of Palestinisn villages before reading this speech, then there is something clearly wrong with you.
What's not to love about all that?
Take if from Samuel T. The next time Israel unleashes a Cast Lead type massacre on Gaza, don't hate it but embrace it and celebrate it. Hating such wanton and saddistic destruction only feeds it.
And you're not allowed to mention the 7,700 shells Israle fired into Gaza over the 10 months after it withdrew (Septmeber 2005), or the fact that, as Idith Zertal and Akiva Eldar documented in their book "Lords of the Land":
"After Israel withdrew it's forces from Gaza, in August 2005, the ruined territory was not released for even a single day from Israel's military grip, or from the price of the occupation that the inhabitants pay every day. Israel left behind scotched earth, devastated services, and people with nearly a present or a future. The Jewish settlements were destroyed in an ungenerous move by an unenlightened occupier, which in fact continues to control the territory and kill and harass it's inhabitants, by means of it's formidable military might."
...or the fact that Israel imposed a brutal, illegal siege on Gaza (an act of war) for the purpose of inflicting economic warfare on Hamas.
Nor are you allowed to mention the fact that Israel boke the 4 mnths ceasefire in 2008 (which Israel admit Hamas were sticking to very well)
link to guardian.co.uk
, not because of rocket fire, but because Israel feared the ceasefire was givign Hamas too much legitimacy,
link to lobelog.com
or the ceasefire Israel broke in October
link to occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com
Which led to those rockets in January.
Remember that Shunra, the Palestinians are not allowed to respond or retaliate to Israeli violence in any way, because that would be terrorism.
I second that Shunra, please explain mass delusion to Samuel. And when you're done with that, please exaplain the holes in the flat earth theory.
Neither could I RoHa, in fact, I'd give my life for my children.
The one circumstance that I've noticed has led to parents rejecting their children, is in cults or religious communes. I have a friend who's parents belong to a religious cult. They were typical loving parents until she decided to leave, at which point, she was excommunicated from the group and her parents.
Zionism ticks all the boxes in terms if cult status.
That's a text book sign of narcisism. If you don't love Israel you must hate it, which gives Israel equal stature. I find that Americans are the same. If they are not loved, they want to be hated because that stil makes them relevant. What they can't bear is to be ignored, irrelevant or pittied.
Also, being hated by someone feeds the argument the hatred is fed by irrationality, whereas indifference indicates objectivity.
I suspect Oleg shares the same anxiety.
It reminds me of some very wealthy friends of mine (an oolder couple) who think that going on Safari involves staying at 5 and 6 star hotels in Africa.
Thanks for that link Citizen,
Another example of the incoherence in these pro Israrlis. They criticize proponents of Israel
While lauding Oren, who represents a government who believes in the same ideology.
Good analogy Toivos,
I definitely think we are going to see examples of collapse and deep crevices developing and most of the Zionists who's built their house on the glacier won't know what hit them.
And to put things in perspectve here. She is laying it all on the line here for J Street, who threw even Peter Beinardt under the bus, and who are firmly commited to:
1. Israel remaining a Jewish majority
2. Ongoing military aid to Israel to ensure it remains the toughest bully on the block
This simply goes to illustrate how far these nut jobs need to go just to get up up to speed with the rest of the world.
I couldn't agree more. If this is what the Liberal Zionists think is he bleeding edge of activism, then Israel has no hope. This delusional and self obsessed woman makes Peter Beinardt look like a radical.
I'm sick and tired if debunking it.
First of all, only 75% of it is spent on arms industry in the US, which is not part of the US economy, but a massive financial sink hole.
Israel back engineers the US technology and flogs it to China.
The money is borrowed by the US to give to Israel, so the US pays interest on the borrowing. Then because Israel gets the cash up
front, it buys US government bonds with the money, which skims more money from the US is interest.
And that doesn't even take into account the tens if billions in forgiven loans and loan guarantees (loans Israel doesn't repay).
Brilliant comment Marc B.
Fred has a point. What about the rights and privacy of child molesters?
You're right. What business of Phil's is any of this - it's not like he's Jewish.
Of course it is and that's precisely how it is intended - to break the deal. Israel want the talks to fail. The last thing Bibbi wants to see is a reproachment between Tehran and Washington.
The other last thing they want to see is for Iran to be removed from the headlines, as this will mean the IP conflict moves back to centre stage.
Bibbi will do anything to prevent that.
Nothing Fayad said coincides with Tor's diatribe. Fayyad does not blame the Arab Spring for the plight of the Palestinians. He argues that it has taken it off the front pages, Tor argue that the Arab Spring is to blame for the plight of the Palestinians.
Tor did not say anything about the Palestinians having failed to galvanize a distracted world behind their cause.
Tor makes no reference to Palestinian independence or how to achieve it.
Like I said Toivos,
Tor's argument are always made in a hermetically sealed environment where there is no one to refute them. It remonds me of Alan Dershowitz's speech at AIPAC a few years ago, when in front of the AIPAC audience, he demanded that if anyone had any evidence the 911 attacks had anything to do with Israel (ie. OBL's motivation) that they should put up or shut up...as if anyone in that audience was even considering it?
As Hostage said in another post a while ago, these guys always claim to be winning the legal argument except in a court of law, where it really counts. If they truly believed the law was on their side, why do they fight tooth and nail to prevent any of these cases ever making it to a legal court?
Oh really?
Has Tor not heard that Carter said Israel has violated the Olso accords?
That Israel stands in violation of dozens of UN Resolutions?
That Israel stands in violation of the Geneva Conventions?
In which case, you are a much better man than I - but I would love nothign better than sitting back and watching Hostage pull them apart.
I suggest we all lodge a complaint about this arak a denying troll. If he/she was already banned, then they should still be banned. If, as PFP claims, his/her existing name still works, them force them to use it.
I think you might be into something Tree.
PFP is too lightweight and not nearly pompous enoug to be Werdine.
As Hostage has shown from Caradon's remarks, that is clearly false. In any case, Eban was left in no doubt that it meant a compete withdraw, so your argument doesn't hold up.
But it wasn't. The meaning is specific unless qualified with caveats. When someone is or to return stolen property, like say a car, they don't get to decide if they want to keep the GPS or car stereo system and return the rest.
Now you're completely off the rails.
First, you're telling me that I shouldn't be assuming anything, yet you (ie. Israeli Hasbra) are making all sorts of assumptions about what you believe it says
Secondly, you initially claimed the language was open ended, yet you now arguing it was very precise.
Please seek professional help. I he's they can do wonderful things for sufferers of scitzophrenia
Which debunks your claim all along that they were offered citizenship. You should have given up this BS argument long ago.
And they did that because....Israel is in violation of 194 and 242.
Thanks for playing.
A different standard to whom Werdine? When was the last time the UNSC demanded Israel give up nuclear enrichment and open up it's nuclear facilities to inspections or face crippling economic sanctions?
Not so. Ire, refused to cooperate with the Goldstone inquiry, which investigated Hamas' a toons as well as Israel's.
Israel also happens to be doing the occupying and violating the Geneva Conventions. It's not the UN's fault that the Palestinians are not also doing it.
LOL, let's see them try. Of course, you missed the point that this was done with the consent of the Palestinians. If Israel follow that example, then yes.
Actually Hostage,
Chomsky gave a speech in which he pointed out that the day before Shalit was captured, the IDF had kidneapped 2 Palestinain brothers from Gaza City.
One day before Hamas captured Shalit, Israeli soldiers entered Gaza City and kidnapped two civilians, the Muammar brothers, bringing them to Israel to join the thousands of other prisoners held there, almost 1000 reportedly without charge. Kidnapping civilians is a far more serious crime than capturing a soldier of an attacking army, but it was barely reported in contrast to the furor over Shalit. And all that remains in memory, blocking peace, is the capture of Shalit, another reflection of the difference between humans and two-legged beasts.
link to zmag.org
Hostage,
I've said it before and I'll say it again. You ar simply awesome and it would be impossible to express my level of gratitude for all the arguments and resources you have provided on this forum.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
What name was that, and why we're you banned?