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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Great find American.
So these letters, like Bibbi's 3 thousand year old ring that he also keeps in his desk, are fake or at the very least, being misrepresented by him.
This guy has to be one of the mist devious, cynical and disturbed people on the planet.
That's hillarious Mooser. Jonathan Pollard would probably have Krauss offering to keep his cell warm so that he could just visit his family for the weekend.
Has anyone noticed how every time Netenyhu wants to make a political point, he conveniently has something in his desk to act as a prop?
Which sugegsts you must be deeply disturbed. You should have been sickened by his exploitation of that tragedy for political gain.
The problem is that the ISraelis elected this socipath to office, not the Israeli defence establishment.
No, the threat is that Israel would lose it's ovwewhelming nuclear wepoans advantage and will no longer be able to act with impunity - and like you, the Israeli government can't tolerate that outcome.
Including your own intelligence agencies douche bag. Truly amazing.
South Africans did not have nukes Woody. They had a nuclear wepoans program but produced none.
I’ve looked it up. Apparently the same tech that gets you 20% enriched uranium gets you 90% enriched uranium.
Barry's piece is full of obfuscation and BS.
I won't get into all the flaws in his piece, but the bottom line is that the gun type nuke he refers to is a complete waste of time unless you have a massive bomber to drop it. The Nagasaki bomb was the size of a car and could never be delivered by a missile.
Israel would see any such bomber long before it got anywhere bear Israel and shoot it down.
The tough part is not even the enrichment, it is the implosion/detonation decide and delivery systems. An implosion system is very complicated and requires thousands if tests using depleted uranium - and no, such tests cannot take place us a steel containment vessel.
I've worked at a nuclear facility as a nuclear engineer. The facility had 2 research reactors - one that used 20% enriched fuel and the other a much lower. Only the 20% fuel reactor was used for medical isotope production, as only 20% U235 can produce sufficient neutron flux - so Barry is the one creating a smokescreen when he argues that there are many types of research reactors.
In fact the TNR in Iran was built by the US and was originally a TRIGA type reactor - the one that uses near weapons grade fuel. The Iranians decided after the revolution that they didn't need a reactor that used such highly enriched fuel, so they converted into a 20% fuel reactor.
That's hardly consistent with a regime that wants to produce nukes.
Irrelevant. No one but the superpowers coudl possibly deliver a gun type nuke.
Israel has threatened to use it's nukes a number of of times. Most infamously was in 1973, when they threatened to go nuclear unless Nixon sent arms ro them.
Or put another way. The fact we haven't found it proves they are hiding it.
War is neither justified nor a good idea. Iran are not even tyign o produce nukes, so unless you n come up wit another very compellin reason to go to war, there is no justification.
You're simply revealing yourselfto be an extremist and a crazed one at that.
It's not a fact. The fact i they they are NOT going for nukes, which is what the US and ISraeli intelligence community have concluded.
The only one burrying their head in the sand is you, while you refuse to accept the evidence and base your argument purely on hysteria, fear and irrationality.
For the umpteenth time dufus, they are NOT trying to produce them - which is the conclusion US and Israeli intelligence have both come to.
So why do you keep repeating this BS? Is your Zionist brain impervious to facts and evidence?
Yes and yes. The centrifuge cascades need to be configured differently and there are a number of technical issues to overcome, not least of which is to stop heavy metal impurities like molybdenum from destroying the centrifuges.
An enrichment plant is not a meth lab whee you can hide it in a garage. They require significant infrastrucure to operate. There is no way they could keep these places secret with the IAEA there 24/7.
No, they are playing for more guarantees that they will not be attacked and that sacntions will be lifted.
Fredblogs is a garden variety Zionist sociopath. He pretends like he doesn;t want a war with Iran, but rejects every logical reason and evidence for why war with Iran is unjustified.
Straight from the horse’s mouth.
And let etrasnlate what the horse (who BTW has pledged allegiance to US policy on Iran in return for the job) actually said.
In other words, the political whore Amano is saying he cannot provide credible assurance that somethign he has no evidence exists does not exist. The fact is that he has no evidence undeclared material exists, and has no reason to believe it does, but is playing politics.
He's right, but what he is saying is entirely above board. 20% is higher what is needed to run nuclear power plants, but it is the enrichment required to run a civlian research reactor to produce medical isotopes. And BTW. All of that enriched uranium, every gram, that is produced by the enrichment facilities is 100% accounted for by the IAEA.
BTW, the fac that Iran has tripled monthly production of uranium refined to 20 percent is not in any way illegal, nor does it suggest it is beyond Iran's legitimate needs.
Stop being so coy Fred, you clearly want a war more than anyone. If you had any interest in avoiding such a war, you wouldn't be trying so desperately to ignore evidence and ample reports that debunk the aggelations Iran is producing nukes.
No, you want it to be true, which means you would rather there be a war based on spurious allegations than peace based on facts.
Stop trolling Fred.
First you're complaining that the IAEA is not being given access to sight they have no business visiting, and then when the Iraniasn agree to give them access, it's still not good enough because they are obviously trying to hide something.
On the two previous visits to Parchin, the IAEA were given free reign to look anywhere they wanted. The US will have their satellites watching every stone on the sight, so they will detect if anythnig is hidden.
Just admit it. You want a war with Americans dying just to keep your apartheis state feeling a little more secure.
Not only that, but notice that this is not the first time the IAEA has been allowed to inspect Parchin? They were allowed to inspect it twice in 2005.
Sorry, but this syracuse.com link is completely BS. The headline that Iran is enriching uranium closer to nuclear weapons grade is hysteria, becasue the IAEA has never accused Iran of producing nukes.
Scondly, Iran has indeed produced it's own fuel elements for the TNR reactor, so Hague is lying.
Thirdly, the story is contradictory. How can Iran have enough fuel to powerthe research reactor for 5 years if, according to the IAEA, they have only just started enriching at Fordo?
No it's not and you are simply an ignoramus. Iran, Brail and Turkey tried tro broker a deal in 2009 to have the fuel supplied to them by other states and the US rejected the offer, so Iran decided to produce it themselves.
See above. The claim they are making far more than they would need is BS.
Stupid argument. Iran have never come close to entiching to 90% and indeed, it has been revealed that they have serious technicla difficulties in even achieving 20%.
Stick to what you know Fred, which is clearly very little.
Stop lying Fred, you are over your head on this topic. The IAEA aren't even suggesting that Parchin is a nuclear facility.
And the Mossad's and the US intelligence communty's. We all agree Iran is not producing nuclear wepoans.
Then educate yourself and stop trolling.
"Israel believes Iran itself has not yet decided whether to make a nuclear bomb, according to intelligence assessment to be presented later this week to U.S. Joint Chief of Staff [Martin] Dempsey."
link to haaretz.com
And..
U.S. Agencies See No Move by Iran to Build a Bomb
link to nytimes.com
If the U.S. agencies are saying it, I’d have to put that down to not wanting to make the same mistake they make in Iraq.
Yes it wold be a mistake to make false claims and repeat lies.
Right Fred, all 16 US inteligence agencies can't see what you can. How does that explain why the Mossad can't also see it?
Rubbish. Even the Mossad admits there isn't one.
They are making highly enriched uranium (20% U-235) which is higher than nuclear power plants require.
But not higher than necessary for their research reactor which produces medical isotopes.
They are also refusing to allow IAEA inspectors to inspect all their nuclear facilities.
Rubbish. They denied access to military facilities, which the IAEA have no right to inspect anyway.
Why would the Mossad and all 16 US intelligence agencies indulge in phony denials?
Israel is giving support, financing and trasingin for Jihadists against Iran. Does that warm your heart too?
Yes, We are you, and you are us. We’re together., except when we're not.
We're not when we adopt a policy of not telling you when we plan to attack Iran, but we
are when we need your weapons and planes and bunker busters and jet fuel and to come to our rescue when we find ourselves over our heads.
In other words, you are not us and we are not you.
What terrorist organiAtion does Waltzer belong to Krauss?
Look Fred, a day ago you didn't even know what the Road Map was, now you're trying to tell me what the Quartet has determined? You Zionists have no shame.
Israel SIGNED and RATIFIED the Road Map for Peace, and that agreement (remember, a signed and ratified document) committed Israel to freeze all settlement construction right away, not 8 years later.
Israel signed it, Israel ratified it, and then Israel immediately reneged on it.
The Road Map is divided into three Phases, and nobody has a right to down-tools WITHIN A PHASE for any reason. Or, put another way: even if the other side *is* dragging its feet all you can do is put your head down and power on to the end of Phase I, at which point you refuse to go to the next Phase until the other dude has caught up to you.
This is how it was written: "In each phase, the parties are expected to perform their obligations in parallel, unless otherwise indicated."
Got that?
OK, having got that then we can make sense of what **is** in Phase I.
And what we see is this:
"Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel’s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel."
That "Palestinian leadership" is The PLO/PA i.e. it is Abbas And His Bunch. It most definitely is not Hamas, nor it is Islamic Jihad.
Or, in short: so long as Abbas And His Bunch are committed to non-violence then that provision has been fulfilled.
Q: Why?
A: Because the only group recognized as the "Palestinian leadership" is Abbas And His Bunch.
But what about Israel?
"Israel also freezes all settlement activity, consistent with the Mitchell report."
"GOI takes no actions undermining trust, including deportations, attacks on civilians; confiscation and/or demolition of Palestinian homes and property, as a punitive measure or to facilitate Israeli construction"
"GOI immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001"
"Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements)."
Not much room to maneouvre there, Fred......
Abbas has carried out all of his obligations under Phase I of the Road Map. Every last one of them. To. The. Letter.
The Quartet makes that call, and the Quartet is exceptionally happy with the progress that Abbas and Faayad have made in the West Bank, and the Quartet has not the slihtest complaint about how Abbas And His Gang have fullfilled all of their obligations under the Road Map.
He is now waiting for Netanyahu to pull his finger out i.e. to do what he has to do in order to join Abbas up on the podium, at which point *both* Abbas and Bibi procede to Phase II, which is when negotiations take place.
Netanyahu is having none of it. He has downed his tools without carrying out A Single One Of His Tasks in Phase I and, furthermore, he is insisting that he doesn't have to carry them out i.e. he is demanding that everyone proceed immediately to the final status negotiations.
So dispute the fact that Bibi is in complete and utter violation of *ALL* of his Road Map committments, he still has the chutzpah to demand his prize. And what is that prize? It is to be able to lock Abbas into a tent while the IDF bulldozers continue to tear down everything that is around it.
The Israeli position is simply beyond chutzpah. It is obscene, Fred, and made worse by the utter refusal of people like you to pull your head out of the sand and stare that obscenity in the face.
Rubbish. You are insisting that Abbas must come to the negotiating table *even* *though* Israel has not even done *one* of the things that it committed itself to doing when it signed that Road Map For Peace. Abbas would be crazy to do that, for reasons that should be obvious even to you i.e. if Israel has a "right" to unilaterally "rewrite" agreements then no agreement that bears Israel's signature is worth the paper that it is written on.
Think about it: if Abbas agrees to that then he is acknowledging that Israel has a "right" to renege on any agreement that it signs and ratifies.
How seriously would you take an offer by a thief to stop stealing from you temporarily, knowing that once the time was up, he fully inetnded to continue stealing? Netenyahu made a commitement to toa moratorium (which he never observed anyway) with the promise that he would go back to buildign settlement no matter what the outcome of the talks.
Phase I (as early as May 2003): End to Palestinian violence; Palestinian political reform; Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian cities and freeze on settlement expansion; Palestinian elections.
Phase II (as early as June-Dec 2003): International Conference to support Palestinian economic recovery and launch a process, leading to establishment of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders; revival of multilateral engagement on issues including regional water resources, environment, economic development, refugees, and arms control issues; Arab states restore pre-intifada links to Israel (trade offices, etc.).
Phase III (as early as 2004-2005): second international conference; permanent status agreement and end of conflict; agreement on final borders, clarification of the highly controversial question of the fate of Jerusalem, refugees and settlements; Arab state to agree to peace deals with Israel.
link to en.wikipedia.org
You're a Zionist so lying is unavoidable for you.
I’m not in favor of expanding the settlements.
Who cares? You elected a government that is.
Actualy it's a very good reason because the peace talks are based on teh Road Map of 2002 what Israel signed and ratified. Under that agreement, Israel is supposed to STOP all settlement building before peade talks are to commence.
In other words, more of the same. You are all for Israel gettin away with murder.
Nakba denial is censored. Stop lying and you won't be censored.
They are according to Israel. Look at any Isreli map of Israel and they are indeed included.
But Isral atatecked the Palestinians, stolen their land and occupied them and still won't let them vote.
Just the land they happne to be living on.
False, but go on...
Actually, they do when they profess to represent Jews.
I love the way you invert reality ProusdFascist777.
She made it clear that she was denied a chance to participate at Hillel, not the other way around.
56% of it yes, Israel stole the rest.
Israel started the arms race long ago, and has tried to maintain it's position as the only horse in the race.
Who do you want to blame for the 60 billion arms de to Saudi Arabia? Iran?
Which is ironic give the war party's line that Iran is run by the mad mullahs.
False. The only person with the authority to speak on behalf if the Ieanian regime is the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
Quoting some obscure cleric with no authority is like citing Avigdor Lieberman (before he became FM) as a spokesman for Israel.
So unless you can produce any such statement from him supporting the use of nukes, you are lying.
Good point Woody, and his belief that Iran cannot be trusted with nukes was not based on his opinion of Tehran's politics, but their religious extremism.
You said that Iranian immunity was the main problem, so clearly you suport an attack on Iran or at the very least, Israel having the option - that makes you somewhat of a scycopath.
Nor did you answer the qustion as to whether you think Israle having nukes is a good thing
Like I said, you are on the same page as the Netenyahu government in this regard. You regard the possobility of Iran being immune to attack frm Israel as "the main concern", becasue you want Israel to have hat option - while Israel coninues to enjoy immnity.
It just goes to prove that there is no such thing as a liberla Zionist.
False.
Not their behavior or their policies no. Most people don't like empires, racism apartheid and colonialism.
It's not about Iran being the good guys. If you are remotely concerned with facts and truth, then you would conclude Iran is not producing nukes and that the Israel's push to attack Ian is based on lies and a false premise.
Do you support such wars Oleg?
It IS all lies. That's why all 16 US intelligence agencies and the Mossad agree there are no nukes being produced by Iran.
Again, there was never a Cold War style Nuclear confrontation. Teh Cold War was notable becasue of the absecene of Nuclear confrontation.
How can that be worse than a war?
No it's not the question he should be asking, it's the question you prefer to answer. it's no surprise that you haven't the honesty to answer it.
The reason you want the question reframed is blatantly obvious. There was no nuclear confrontation during the Cold War, the reason being that both aides had nukes - and like the Likudniks in power, you can't bear to see the Israelis hands tied.
The only time nukes were ever used was when the US was a nuclear hegemon and you simply want Israel to remain the sole nuclear power in the region.
You have quite a sick and sadistic mind.
There's no evidence at all. Had there been any, Panetta would not have had the confidence to stare that the Iranians are not building nukes.
Actually, Eljay, Israel routinely uses it's nukes for blackmail.
During the 1973's Yom Kippur War Israel was almost overwhelmed by Arab forces. Prime Minister Golda Meir authorized a nuclear alert, ordering 13 atomic bombs be prepared for missiles and aircraft. Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Simha Dinitz threatened “very serious conclusions" if there was not an immediate airlift of supplies.[9] This forced U.S. President Richard Nixon to make emergency airlifts of state of the art military supplies to Israel.[10][11]
Seymour Hersh documents in detail in his book The Samson Option, which describes Israel’s strategy of massive nuclear retaliation against “enemy” nations should its existence as a Jewish state be jeopardized through military attack. Israeli leaders created the term in the mid-1960s, inspired by the Biblical figure Samson, who destroyed a Philistine temple, killing himself and thousands of Philistine enemies. [1][2]
The nuclear blackmail was used by Israel to prevent the SOciets intervening militarily on behalf of Arab nations.[13] Obviously an Israeli nuclear attack on Russia by the United States’ great ally Israel would result in Russia sending thousands of nuclear weapons towards the U.S. and the U.S. responding in kind.
Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, said "If left to its own Israel will have no choice but to fall back on a riskier defense which will endanger itself and the world at large... To enable Israel to abstain from dependence on nuclear arms calls for $2 to 3 billion per year in U.S. aid."[17]
Ariel Sharon said things like "We are much more important than (Americans) think. We can take the middle east with us whenever we go" [19] and "Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches."[20]
Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres has admitted that nuclear weapons are used by Israel for “compellent purposes” - i.e., forcing others to accept Israeli political demands.[28] In 1998 Peres was quoted as saying, "We have built a nuclear option, not in order to have a Hiroshima, but to have an Oslo," referring to imposing a settlement on the Palestinians.[29]
Israeli Israel Shahak wrote in 1997: "Israel clearly prepares itself to seek overtly a hegemony over the entire Middle East...without hesitating to use for the purpose all means available, including nuclear ones."[33] Zeev Schiff opined in 1998 that "Off-the-cuff Israeli nuclear threats have become a problem."[34] In 2003 David Hirst noted that “The threatening of wild, irrational violence, in response to political pressure, has been an Israeli impulse from the very earliest days” and called Israel a candidate for “the role of 'nuclear-crazy' state.”[35]
And as Martin Van Creveld, a professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, said: "Most European capitals are targets for our air force....We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under." [38]
So as you can see Eljay, Israel has used it's nukes gratuitously for blackmail.
It won't. Nukes are useless and impractical.
But this question reveals your real concern. If a war goes nukes, you want to be sure that only Israel has them so that Israel is spared, even if the other states are not.
Have they been attacked or invaded?
What regional aspirations Oleg? They have not invaded or attacked anyone in 270 years. What are they waitign for?
As for their treatment of women, sexual minorities, as we to believe that bombign the country will improve the plight of those groups?
Speaking of rhetoric, Netentyahu recently proclaimed "Death to all Arabs". Doesn't that put him in the same league as Iran's leaders? Is it therefore a good idea to let such a regime is allowed to have nukes?
Nice ad hominem. How about readin what Annie said, or does sticking to the truth make your job of creating a counter argument too difficult?
BTW. Did you find that evidence that Iran is producing nukes yet?
A nuclear arms race will begin when neighboring stated such as Turkey and South Arabia which are the main contenders with Iran over influence
in the region will launch their own programs.
Israle already started the arms race. The problem with Irael is that they hate for anyone else to be able to compete in it.
Israel tends to have very good relationships with US sponsored tyrants and dictators.
Which it contionues to maintain as enermies, in spite of he Arab Peace Initiative, which offers peace and mutual recognition.
And the US could turn around tomorriow and declare Israel a a threat to it's existence and decide to nuke it. The King's Tporah could become law in Israel. Anything is possible, the reality is that Iran's superme leader stated that nukes are imcompatible with Islam, so it's more than a tempoarty fatwa.
Are ther e any other non sequitirs you'd like to add?
Tell me Oleg, do you want to continue beating your wife? I have no evidence that you do, btu I just thought I'd ask.
Both the US and Israeli intelligence community agree Iran is not producing nukes. So what evidence do you have that they don't which makes you so much more sure that they are?
I am serious here it’s interesting what goes in your mind on this issue. Because whatever it is, it is certainly not facts or evience.
He's made such a monumental fool of himself on Steven Walt's blog that he's decided to sell his Hasbra here. As has been explained to him countless times, and as Hostage originally posted here:
the reference to “historical connection”, was concocted to downplay the fact that the Zionists lack any legal standing to assert a claim to the territory of Palestine during the Post-WWI peace conferences at Versailles and San Remo. The Principle Allied Powers decided there were no bases for a legal entitlement, so Lord Balfour suggested that some polite words about the “historical connection” of the Jewish people be added to the Mandate instead. The travaux préparatoires of the British Foreign Office Committee that was tasked with drafting the Mandate reveal that the Allies did not consider the historical connection as a basis for any Jewish claim:
“It was agreed that they had no claim, whatever might be done for them on sentimental grounds; further that all that was necessary was to make room for Zionists in Palestine, not that they should turn “it”, that is the whole country, into their home.
– See PRO FO 371/5245, cited in Doreen Ingrams, Palestine Papers 1917-1922: Seeds of Conflict, George Brazziler, 1972, pages 99-100
The General Assembly resolution that you cited not only excluded the bulk of Judea and Samaria from the Jewish state, it prohibited the inhabitants of the Jewish state from obtaining citizenship and moving there:
no Arab residing in the area of the proposed Arab State shall have the right to opt for citizenship in the proposed Jewish State and no Jew residing in the proposed Jewish State shall have the right to opt for citizenship in the proposed Arab State.
— United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181, November 29, 1947, Chapter 3: Citizenship, International Conventions and Financial Obligations
It might be nice if there was any legal relevance to such a claim in terms of Israel and it's legitmacy or creation.
Bingo.
So what is refereed to as the destruction of Israel is the the denial of provelage. And giving up that privelage and entitlement is what is referred to as commiting suicide.
Clearly paying higher taxes or receiving fewer services is tantamount to the destruction of Israel.
You're an inspiration MJ.
Dersh is obviously scared of you because you:
1. know your stuff
2. have insider knowledge of the workings of AIPAC
Keep up the great work!!
Except when you want to cite the false accusation that they called for Israel to be wiped off the map.
The latest NIE (all 16 US intelligence agencies) and Mossad agree Iran is not producing nukes. It is therefore the height of dishonesty to keep talking as though Iran's pursuit of a nuke is a foregone conclusion.
But then, that's what we've come to expect from you isn't it?
Not bad for a cult movement hey?
I hope this sets a fecal precedent, though I expect Dershowitz will get involved if the implications were that far reaching.
Are you offering to recommend one Mayhem? One of many you've seen?
Where? You're new to this forum aren't you, or are you posting under a new name having been banned.
I'm sure it makes your argument easier to make such false accusations. I would live nothing better to see the Syrian regime and every other human rights abiding regime (including Israel's) toppled. I just don't support foreign intervention, especially one that had the support of Al Qaeda.
But hey, if you want align yourself with Al Qaeda, who am I to stop you?
LOL, you hasbrats are great for comic relief. First you argue that the casualties have been confirmed reports, the in the same breath you dismiss reports as unreliable.
As you demonstrate by example. Do you support Israel's occupation, illegal settlements, refusal to allow refugees to return and home demolition?
I mean, you wouldn't want to inconsistent now would you?
The 8000 Syrian casualty account figure is entirely consistent with the countless reports that have come out of the country and that have been issued by the UN and human rights NGOs.
False.
The Nation ran a headline in January that 7,384 chi;dren had been killed, citing the United Nations Children’s Fund (Unicef).
link to nation.com.pk
The problem is that the Nation made up the number killed by adding the "as of January 7" date times thousand and the number 384 the UN got from somewhere.
MSNBC reported the story about those children in Syria which at least got the number right which the UNICEF's Rima Salah used:
At least 384 children have been killed and virtually the same number have been jailed, the United Nations Children's Fund said. UNICEF spokeswoman Marixie Mercado told Reuters the figures were based on reports by human rights organizations which it judged to be credible.
The UN's own human rights official Navi Pillay made up a number back in December. Navi Pillay was exaggerating numbers of people killed in skirmishes in Syria. At the same time she was calling for the U.N. Security Council to refer the situation to the International Criminal Court.
December 1: Syria now in a civil war with 4,000 dead: United Nations
Syria has entered a state of civil war with more than 4,000 people dead and an increasing number of soldiers defecting from the army to fight President Bashar Assad's regime, the U.N.'s top human rights official said Thursday.
December 13: Syria crackdown has killed 5,000 people, UN says
The death toll from Syria's crackdown on a 9-month-old uprising has exceeded 5,000 people, the top U.N. rights official said Monday, as Syrians closed their businesses and kept children home from school as part of a general strike to pressure President Bashar Assad to end the bloodshed.
So according to Pillay, in the eleven days between Thursday the 1st December and 12th December 1,000 people (over 90 per day), died in Syria through civil war like violence. Where did that UN official get her numbers from?
On December 6 the New York Times reported on 36 dead bodys, likely killed in sectarian violence, that were found in Homs. It did not report any any killing elsewhere but added:
The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, an opposition group based in London, called it “one of the deadliest days since the start of the Syrian Revolution.”
That weird "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights", which is clearly on the side of the opposition and certainly doesn't downplay the numbers, calls 36 dead "one of the deadliest days". But the UN comes up with a number that represents more than 90 per day killed on each of the last 11 days.
Navi Pillay has no credibility when they make up such false numbers.
Iran's role has not even been proven.
In other words, you are all for war on Iran, based on lies no less. Got it.
Face it Mohr, you only care about rights when they provide an excuse to go to war with peoepl with brown faces.
It does bomb civlians and so long as the US vetos UN resolutions against Israel, their cause is protected.
After all, Mordecai Gur(Israeli politician and the 10th Chief of Staff of the IDF) told Ze'ev Shiff (Israeli journalist and military correspondent for Ha'aretz) that:
The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets.
1. The casualties in Syria in the past year (8000) have exceeded the total number of casualities from the I/P conflict
Where did you get the figure of 8,000 from?
. Israel does not want a war that will destabilise the Middle East even more.
False. A destabilized ME keeps Israel's perceived enemies divided, which Israel loves.
False.
1. The Mossad agrees with the last 2 NIE's, that Iran is NOT producing nukes. In other words, not only is the Israeli leadership lying about Iran, but the sanctions serve no purpose.
2. Israel is launching and supporting terrorist groups as they conduct terrorist attacks inside Iran.
Clearly Israel is desperate to start a war one way or another.
Based on the brain dead comments from Israelis about the film, you are wrong.
Yes it's a shame. It reminds me of the claims Israel lays to all the Nobel Prizes won by Jewish individuals.
Where to begin?
1. Israel is not only killing more people, but poses a greater threat to world peace.
2. Israel is pushing for a dsasterous war with Iran based on false pretenses.
3. Israel's leaders have managed to convince Israelis that Iran is full of people who want to anihilate them, which is false.
Need I go on?
Yes, and then came the off the cuff attack on Iran.
there is no doubt in our minds that your sympathy for the plight of ordinary Iranians is certainly heartfelt Mayhem.
It's a bigger shame that Jews and Palestinians are being held hostage to Zionism.
Palestinians in the West Bank , Hebron, EJ and Gaza would agree.
ROR is a human right, It's nto for ISrael to decide on their behalf.
What absolute rubbish!
1. Europe has been paying reperations to Israel ever since WWII. Israel will have to do the same
2. Very few JEws were expelled from Arab countries after 1948, but they should receive reperations too yes.
Did you know btw that Palestinians in Lebanon enjoy the same civil rights as those in the WB?
False. Gaza was a land swap in the sense that more of the West Bank was taken as a price for the pullout from Gaza. The hard liners in Israel decided that the cost of preptecting 8000 illegal settlers in Gaza was better spent put towards protecting even more illegal settlers in the WB.illegal
LOL. In the mean time, Israle wil lsteal the rest fo the West Bank abnd flood it with another 1 million religious nut jobs who would rather to go to war with the IDF than move.
Becasue Shmolom Ben Ami, who was foreign minsyter at the time, stated that he woudl have rejected the Camp David offer had he been a Palestinian.
Note that destruction has become an Israeli euphamism for debning Israelis everythign they want.
Obviously I don't live in Israel.
What country did your family come from Oleg and how many passports do you have?
In other words, Israel is not going to agree to anything unless it is forced to do so.
Yes Woody, can we not have a discussion without you cutting so close to the bone?
What ever happened to diplomacy, ignoring the ekephsnt in the room and telling a few white lies to keep things civilized?
The meaning is the reality they have lived for 45 years.
What had the Arab Spring got to do with it?
I love how every time a single state is raised, you hasbrats screech that "we can't accept that". When the 1967 borders are mentioned and you screech "we can't have that either, we need Jerusalem". Then you're asked to come up with your own proposal and you shrug your shoulders and say, "I dunno".
No, why don't you cut the BS and fulfill your commitments under the Road Map that your leaders signed and ratified in 2002 - you know, the one that requires Israel to stop building settlements and stealing land BEFORE final status negotiations are to take place?
The Palestinians would be crazy to negotiate with you until your leaders price that they can be trusted and are willing to honor past agreements.
No, right now they realize that "negotiations" with only the Americans in the room is nothing but a cynical ploy by which Israelis
get to stonewall and steal land while maintaining the facade of wanting a solution.
They are trying a reconciliation with Hamas but i doubt it will work
they hate each other too much
You mean George the US steps in and stops it in it's tracks like they did in Egypt?
Either way, that's beside the point.
Depends on the shit your government is pulling there right now.
What's that got to do with withdrawing from the OT.
You mean without crazed messianic leaders succeed in dragging the world into a regional war based on lies?
Yeah right, you thugs stile their land from under them and offered them crumbs and they didn't show any gratitude for your generosity.
How unreasonable!
And yet here you are, threatening violence if they try to take it back.
Rubbish. Most Israelis have elected increasingly right wing governments, the last of which campaigned on a platform of rejecting a two state solution.
The same leader got a massive bump in the polls when, in a speech before Congresd, he rejects 2 States along
1967 borders with exchanges of land of equal values.
You mean like no demands to be recognized as a Jewish state, or demands boy the Palestinians disarm?
Yeah who you gonna believe Chaos, Oleg or your lying eyes?
It's not the national state of the Jewish people. It's a state with aJewish majority, but that will change.
That's beside the point. It's obvious that the jewish majority living in Israel won’t stand for anything. In antpy case, once the hard core settler zealots completely take over the place (and continue to refuse to pay taxes) the place will fall apart and the left right and middle of the political spectrum will abandon the place.
You're all Zionists, so you always have been.
As if you guys have ever needed an excuse to use force.
We get it alright, but regardless of what incites it, the outcome is going to be pretty much the same. The current trajectory is going to lead a bloody genocide one way or another. After all, what are your plans for the 4 million Plestinians in the West Bank and the 1.5 million in Gaza?
Yeah, I thought so.
Reality check. It's been 1948 for he Palestinians ever since.
And the only ones who think it won't happen regardless are the ideological nut jobs in the Middle.
Seeing as Dersh's own book was plagiarized from one of these phony sources, is this an admission by Dersh that he is a phony academic?
So is Dershowitz.
In some instances huh? I take it your ambivalent about their drive for war with Iran even thought the US and Israeli intelligence communities agree Iran is not pursuing nukes.
And frankly, I don't buy your argument that you are all that perplexed about the fact this blog is full of anger about Israel to the exclusion of virtually any other injustice . You obviously sought out this blog and claim to have been reading it for some time.
Of all the political blogs out there, why did you seek this one out if not for the fact that you have a personal stake in this conflict?
You PEP's are so easy to read.
Please don't be. We can take it, and no doubt, the talking points and pre prepared responses you have ready to roll out will be all too familiar.
So let it out. Say what's on your mind and let's get this over and done with. We've already dealt with Izik and Shaktiman in the last 2weeks.
We should have you sliced and diced in a couple of hours.
It was a figure of speech Izik,
Israel is now ruled by religious extremists. It's revealing that this is the only point I made that you have bothered to debate.
Shapira was not arrested because of the book, but for terrorist attacks carried out in the West Bank.
Not surprisingly, he's always released with little more than a slap on the wrist. The IDF has become overwhelmingly dominated bybreligious nut jobs for whom whack jobs like Shapira and Youssef are considered their spiritual guides.
Take your time with the rest. I'm sure you'll need it.
Israel was not withdrawing from any city. The Oslo agreement was simply a charade for Isrle to subjugate the Palestinians under a different arrangement. Israel controlled 100% of the West Bank then as they do today.
So did the assassination of Yitzak Rabin.
The most important fact about the Golstone piece is that it was an op-Ed published in the Washington Post. It was not a UN letter nor did not instruct the UN to take any actions in light of the so called evidence.
Goldstone did not issue any apology. He said he regretted that the fact-finding mission did not have such evidence explaining the circumstances in which we said civilians in Gaza were targeted, but the reality it that it was not his fault that such evidence was missing. The fault was Israel's for refusing to cooperate.
It stands to reason that his report would have been different had Israel cooperated with the fact finding mission, which they refused to do. That does not mean the conclusions would have been any different. Indeed, the other members of the investigative team completely rejected any suggestion that the report needed changing. So did Goldstone for that matter.
Stating that civilians were not targetted as matter of policy was gross deception on his part. The Report never claimed that Israel set out to intentionally murder civilians, but said that Cast Lead was “deliberately disproportionate” and intended “to punish, humiliate and terrorize”. Kenneth Roth, Executive Director of Human Rights Watch, made this point on Twitter. He commented, that the “crime of indiscriminate warfare” – not “deliberate killing” – was indeed “state policy”, and that there had been “no retraction” on that part.
Nor does Go,stones op-ed mean civilians were not targetted. Furthermore, Goldstone specifically said that the Israeli investigation established the validity of SOME incidents, not ALL incidents. After all, the Jerusalem Postreported Shimon Peres’ description of Israel’s aim as “to provide a strong blow to the people of Gaza so that they would lose their appetite for shooting at Israel”.
Then there’s the so-called ‘Dahiya Doctrine’ (after the Lebanon war in 2006) – coined when the IDF Northern Command chief in October 2008 discussed how Israel would conduct the next war: “civilian villages” would be considered as “military bases”, an “approved” plan, he affirmed. Another paper written by a reserve Colonel for the Institute of National Security Studies (INSS) at Tel Aviv University – titled ‘Disproportionate Force’- observed:
With an outbreak of hostilities, the IDF will need to act immediately, decisively, and with force that is disproportionate to the enemy’s actions and the threat it poses. Such a response aims at inflicting damage and meting out punishment to an extent that will demand long and expensive reconstruction processes.
These recommendations were noted by Ha’aretz, two months before Operation Cast Lead, in an article titled, ‘IDF plans to use disproportionate force in next war’.
If Goldstone was so sure that Israel's evidence would have influenced findings about intentionality and war crimes, then why did he not insist it be retracted? Instead, he argued the opposite.
Again, he is taking the blame for Israel's refusal to cooperate with the fact finding mission. Prior to his turnaround, Goldstone repeatedly told how he pleaded with the Israeli government on multiple occasions to participate and cooperate with the investigation. It was not his fault that they did not
And it involves using human shields. Calling it an anti-terrorism tactic doesn't change that's fact. It's simply branding for public comsumption.
Shin-Bet appealed to the supreme court on that decision and continue to violate the ruling.
link to news.bbc.co.uk
The investigations were a farce and an obvious cover up.
The UN Committee repeated testimony by Israel’s Military Attorney General (MAG) that “the military investigations system he heads is not a viable mechanism to investigate and assess high-level policy decisions”.
The Committee also noted that the MAG’s “dual responsibilities” as both “legal advisor” to the “military authorities”, as well as “his role as supervisor of criminal investigations…raises concerns”. In other words, Israel’s internal investigations were conducted by the lawyer of the subject of the investigation.
Goldstone's new found respect for Israel's knvestogatiev rpcedure ignores the fact that The Goldstone Report itself noted that the Israeli system "to deal with allegations of serious wrongdoing by armed forces personnel does not comply” with the relevant international principles. Amnesty International slammed the Turkel Commission into the murderous assault on the flotilla as a “whitewash”. In November 2010, The Jerusalem Post reported that the IDF had investigated 400 “complaints” related to Operation Cast Lead, interviewed “more than 600 officers and soldiers”, and the total number of indictments to date was three. A report by Israeli NGO Yesh Din revealed that between 2000 and 2009, less than 6 percent of investigations by the military police “against soldiers suspected of committing offenses against Palestinians and their property” led to indictments. B’Tselem’s report last year, ‘Void of Responsibility’, featured similar statistics: out of 148 cases in which Palestinians were killed between 2006 and 2009, only 22 resulted in a military police probe.
The Goldstone Report’s findings were corroborated by other groups and investigations, such as the Human Rights Watch report on white phosphorus, Breaking the Silence’s testimonies, and evidence from PCHR in Gaza. B’Tselem documented 252 dead children, a report by two Israeli used testimonies to allege the use of human shields, and Amnesty International concluded that “Israeli forces committed war crimes and other serious breaches of international law”, including “indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks against civilians”. There is also the report[PDF] by the US National Lawyers Guild delegation to Gaza, and the Independent Fact Finding Committee report [PDF] commissioned by the Arab League, and made up of experts from South Africa, Netherlands, Norway, Chile/Germany, Portugal, and Australia.
Lastly and important side point is that in the wake of the publication of the Goldstone Report, Israeli military officials and politicians spoke about the need “for changes in the international laws of war”. Why the imperative to ‘change’ the laws, if Israel had not broken any?
You obviously didn't see Israel cooperate with the Goldstone fact finding mission. Of course, what makes Israel's investigation of itself any more credible than a tax return filed by Al Capone ?
► 1:07► 1:07www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yVHLrIpXwo
link to btselem.org
link to haaretz.com
link to ynetnews.com
Breaking the Silence says yu're the liar.
False. 50% were women and children. The rest were adut men, only a tiny fraction were militants. After all, 250 of them were police cadets which the lying IDF designated militants.
That irrelevant. Israel obviously could wipe out th entirpopulation of Gaza, but it would be a PR disaster that would inflict irreparable damage on Israel.
No he didn't because as I already explained, the Goldstone Report never made that claim in the first place.
Stupid argument. The only evidence available to us are Isrel's actions. Israel's leaders obviously would never share the orders with the public.
What BS. Terrorism doesn't require infrastructure, which is why terrorism is the chosen method of combat for those who have no infrastructure at their disposal. Isrel claims their apartheid wall stopped suicide attacks, yet 1,500 Palestinians are able to cli my over, under and around the wall every week, so any suicide bomber could get through and carry out an attack if they wanted to.
Your example is pathetic. There's no evidence that Hamas were involved and the fact that the report didnn't even make it to an English report suggests it's baseless anyway. If this were true, Nentenyahu would be al, over this like a rash.
More BS that wasn't deemed worthy of an English translation.
Israel cannot stop the violence (especially given they re so addicted to it). Hamas realized that violence wasn't helping their cause, so they changed strategy.
Here is the Wikileaks cable that revealed the true reason Israel launched Cast Lead.
link to lobelog.com
Izik,
You really are going to have to do a lot better than trying to sell your B grade Hasbra here.
Rubbish. One menber of Hamas said that 600-700 casualties were members of Hams, not militants. It was reported that Israel bombed a police academy the first day, killing police 250 cadets who we're graduating.
They were not militants.
False again. The talks had already failed by the time the second Intifada had begun.
Goldstone did not admit to any flaws in his report and certainly did not identify any. In fact, he reaffirmed that the report should not be withdrawn or even changed.
Yes he did sell out on this point, seeing as no investigation actually took place and he gave Isrel credit without seeing any part of that investigation. It shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone that Israel , an organization that praises murderers of civilians, pretends to investigate itself and never finds any wrongdoing on it's part.
Here's another horse's mouth. When the Israeli Supreme Court banned the use of human shields by the IDF (a practice it had been carrying out for some time), Shin Bet appealed the descision on the grounds that the use of human shields was very useful.
YouTube is full of examples of the IDF using human shields.
Hamas have killed militants who violated the ceasefire with Israel, which is a far more grave judgement.
What was deemed unacceptable was they got caught, or that they had a lowly rank and were scapegoated. The IDF were given explicit instructions to kill civilians and target civilian infrastructure,
This rubbish has all Ben debunked. Wikileaks revealed that the attack on Gaza had nothing to do with rockets. After all it was Isrel that violated the ceasefire (on the day of the US presidential elections no less). Prior to that date, there had been no rockets fired in 4 months.
Israel also. Optimus to occupy Gaza.
Israel did not put an end to the suicide bombings, Hamas did in 2006. If firing rockets into towns Ipis terrorism, then Israel has perpetrated far more terrorism, having fired 7,700 shells into Gaza over the 10 months after it withdrew.
Stupid argument. Kosovo was not under occupation nor a blockade, and as such, the Serbs were armed and able to fight back. That's what's war looks like. In Gaza, Israe, he been imposing a cruel and I humane blockade, and furthermore, Isral started the war without provocation for political reasons.
Gaza was a massacre without a doubt.
First, it’s 16, not 8, but that’s besides the point. How many Israelis have to be murdered by Hamas until the government decides to do something about?
No one was being murder nbetween June and November 2008 when the ceasefire was in place. Israel put their own citizens in harms way by breaking the ceasefire and refusing to returnto the ceasefire or extend it.
Rubbish. If there were any truth to that, Israel would not have mastered 330 children, or destroyed civilian infrastructure. All Israe, does it deem everything to be a security threat, be it children, hospitals, mosques, schools and then bombs them. Israel kills women and children.
Resistance is absolutely necessary. It does not have to take the forms of violence, but resistance must continue until the occupation ends.
Sorry but no one cas what to think. The tunnel story was a bullshit excuse concocted by Israel to justify an attack on Gaza. As Uri Avnery pointed out, if there was any truth to this story, Israel could easily have placed an ambush where the tunnel exited. What is incredibly stupid and infantile about this bs story is that we are expected to believe that it was more practical for Israel to conduct a raid I Gaza the it was to move the soldiers out of harms way.
After the Israeli strike, Hamas started launching rockets into Israeli towns. At that point, enough was enough for Israel.
As Wikileaks revealed, this was the desired outcome. Israel also rejected calls to return to a ceasefire in Decembersand waited out the month of rocket attacks so that it could sell the story that it had been patient, but had to do something to stop the rockets. The Israeli leadership could have stopped the rocket attacks a month earlier without any loss of life.
But because Israel is a lawless society, it is not enforced.
And why would you go to great lengths to vindicate the murderous Israelis leadership and apartheid is beyond us, when you can support democracy, human rights and equality. It is also very revealing that you make such an issue of the Hamas charter while saying nothing of the PLO charter, which is practically the same.
You are either insanely deluded or a pathological liar.
Fatah lost the last elections to Hamas, but not only refused trecognize the outcome, they launched a coup to overthrow Hamas. On top of all this, Abbas continued t insist he was the legitimate elected leader 24 months after his term had expired. Is that was you take tobe democracy?
The reaso. You love Fatah so much is because they are corrupt sock puppets of Washnington and Tel Aviv and they are prepared to sell out their own population.
Ievery time David Green has come to this blog, he has displayed the same insufferable sense of entitlement. It's as though he expects the red carpet to be rolled out for him and everyone here to bend to his wishes.
It's amazing that he accuses others of bring gatekeepers, while behaving like one himself.
Your Hasbra doesn't wash here. Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth and Israel targeted civilians and civilian infrastructure. They shot civlans who were running y or carrying white flags.
Rubbish. Hamas called for an end to suicide attacks in 2006, which is precisely whe they ended.
That's easily proven false. On November 2008, Israel broke a 4 month ceasefire, during which no rockets were fired by Hamas, and the few that did fire were fired by militants not under Hamas control. They arrested or killed those that breached it.
So Israel failed to protect Israeli civilians by breaking a ceasefire.
Then for the next month, Israel did nothing to stop the rockets, which were fired in retaliation. Israel did not defend against them and rejected calls from Hamas to return to a ceasefire.
So I fact, Israel used the redirects of Sderot as human shield s during that period.
repeating something 1000 times dowsn't make your case any atringer David. Such a strategy carried out on such a scale does indeed qualify as a conspiracy, but the available evidence (ie. over 250 cases of espionage investigated by the FBI) proved that it is by no means simply a theory.
You're not being personal, just dishonest.
The “Protocols” are an anti-semitic hoax that Israel has gone to great lengths to validate.
The Hamas Charter contains a qualifier that forbids members harm to those who have not "borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings"
.
No such qualifier is seen in the founding documents of organisations like Likud, Shas and Betar all of which pledge the clearance of Palestinians from at least the Jordan to the sea.
The leader of Shas is well known for his pronouncements calling for the "annihilation of Arabs".
Betar has some interesting ideas, not dissimilar from Sheik Yassin:
"Betar supports the concept of a Jewish state with a Jewish Majority in its biblical-homeland." "The entire land of Israel as given to the Jewish people by G-d with it's eternal capital Jerusalem."
"100% Jewish Labor in all Jewish enterprises."
"Every great colonization in history, has always entailed a revolt of the natives."
"Our aim is to make Betar such a world organism which, at a sign from the center, will be able simultaneously to move tens of thousands of hands in the cities of all countries."
"Discipline is the subordination of a mass to one leader"
"every Jew is a "prince" "
link to www.betar.co.uk
The King's Torah is also illuminating:
link to www.countercurrents.org
So long as they don't embarrass, inconvenience or provoke Israeli supporters or Israel.
Well put Cliff. Green is another example of a gate keeper who expects Palestinian activism to stick to a verb narrow set of guidelines. Ideally, they should be seen and not heard, and preferably not seen at all.
Green wants them to remain passive and not to embarrass Israel.
Because as David knows, the Palestinians really have time on their side. Try telling a family who's house is being demolished to be patient.
Seriously, is it just me, or do all Zionists eventually sound like sociopaths?
Right David, and women should wear short skirts and plunging necklines in public - you know -it might provoke sexually frustrated men.
If Zionist events are going to be attended but such violent participants, shouldn't you be arguing against allowing them to be held?
So what are you suggesting David? That Zionists are dangerous, violent and unpredictable and therefore should not be confronted?
When I read your absurd comments, I feel like I'm hearing Witty all over again.
I beg to differ Walid. Regev is held in contempt by reporters outside the US. In fact, he's becoem something of an object of ridiucle.
Rather than put an end to Israeli apartheid, they are spending millios justifying it. That's not such a wonderful thing.
Greenstein's response is outstanding, but like Annie, I believe NF is too valuable and has contributed far too much to be cast aside.
This is whre I don't follow NF and I find him incoherent. On one hand he insists that the BDS monvement stick to the law, and that the law is all ecompassing, while then admitting that the law comes second to public opinion.
Which only reinforce the idea that placing one's faith in international law is futile, which again undermines NF's argument.
So the left wing is silly for not sticknig religiously to the law, but just as silly for limiting it's position to the law.
What the hell are you talking about? The state of Israel would never have become a reality without the expulsion of 800,000 Palestinians. The expulsion took place the day after 181 was passed.
As for 181 itself, it was passed without conulting either party, so acceptance or otherwise was of no consequence. The states would have been created regardless.
Wow, talk about serious narciism. For eveyone else, obstacles are fete, but for the Jewish people, the obstacles were put there intentionally to thwart them, as though part fo a master plan. Pure lunacy.
Excellent post David and superb analysis.
Listening to this interview, I couldn't help but be reminded of responses Chomsky has given to BDS. When he's been asked about it, his replies have been euqally convoluted, vague and perplexing. On so many issues regarding the IP issue, these two men are on exactly the same page, which leads me to wonder if what they share is the same blind spot rather than the same level of enlightenment.
I have listened to a number of NF's lectures on the 2ss, and I share your degree of immaculate ignorance. I do not believe I have heard NF prescribe a clear and convincing formula for securing such an outcome.
AS for the "destruction of Israel" allegation, I was dunfounded by the sheer stupidity of his remark. As you have pointed out, the only way in which Israel could be destroyed as a state would be as a Jewish state, and inquiring minds want to know if NF is, or has become an advocate for a Jewish state as opposed to a secular state.
Superb indeed.