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- Two friends meet for 5 minutes in Jerusalem 5
- Video: Soldiers aim guns at fallen boy’s head outside West … 14
- Abulhawa declines to ‘balance out’ several Israelis in ‘Al Jazeera’ … 15
- Exile and the prophetic: The Jewish Identity Network 7
- Trauma begins at home 7
- CNN’s Tapper lends himself to claustrophobic discussion of unicorn– Israel’s … 8
- Church of Scotland’s revised ‘Promised Land’ report has softer edges … 21
- Guatemalan genocide got assist from US, Christian Right, and Israel 18
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- Israeli airport sorts passengers with ‘Jewish stickers’ and ‘Arab stickers’ 676
- ‘Newseum’ folds under pressure, will not include Gaza cameramen in … 312
- Dershowitz calls Hawking an ‘ignoramus,’ a ‘lemming,’ and likely an … 203
- In photos: Gaza marches and rallies mark 65 years of … 149
- Glenn Greenwald brings facts and reason to ‘Real Time’, ruins … 145
- San Francisco bus ads condemn Israeli apartheid: backlash begins 120
- Washington Post’s racism map omits Israel 101
- Washington state bus-ad campaign dares to state: ‘Equal rights for … 100
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- Dershowitz calls Hawking an ‘ignoramus,’ a ‘lemming,’ and likely an … 149
- Glenn Greenwald brings facts and reason to ‘Real Time’, ruins … 88
- International Criminal Court opens preliminary investigation into attack on Mavi … 88
- Israeli airport sorts passengers with ‘Jewish stickers’ and ‘Arab stickers’ 69
- Washington Post’s racism map omits Israel 67
- Barbara Boxer’s visa bill for Israel comes under concerted attack 64
- ‘Newseum’ folds under pressure, will not include Gaza cameramen in … 62
- Church of Scotland backs away from boycott call in the … 62
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- RT @MhamdG: Two friends (@WalaaGh & @MahaIghbaria ) meet for 5 minutes in Jerusalem http://t.co/226bwrY48g via @Mondoweiss, 2 hours ago
- Story behind a photo - Two friends meet for 5 minutes in Jerusalem http://t.co/0UZkQMevP1, 2 hours ago
- Exile and the prophetic: The Jewish Identity Network http://t.co/UPuEQQgkjI, 6 hours ago
- Trauma begins at home http://t.co/on36d4DzxP, 6 hours ago
- CNN’s Tapper lends himself to claustrophobic discussion of unicorn– Israel’s survival as ‘a Jewish democracy’ http://t.co/GAK5ZiP9jt, 6 hours ago
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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
My point exactly Mig.
In fact, I am pretty sure that no one recognizes Israel as a Jewish state - not even the US.
Then why should Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewis state? Why should anyone for that matter?
So long as you are willing to admit this means Israel is not therefore a true democracy.
OMG!
spoken like a true human being
Yes it reminds me of Miko Peled's sister when his niece was killed in a suicide attack. When Bibbi (then pm) asked to attend the fineral, Peled's sister told him to stay away. She blamed him for the death of her daughter.
Recognize Israel as a Jewish state.
Right after you recognize Palestine as a Palestinuan state.
I personally know a couple who visited Jerusalem during the 60's.
Israelis love double standards don't they? To harp on the fact that ALL Israelis, be they Jewish or otherwise, were not allowed to visit cannot be discussed without aknowledging that Israel and Jordan were in a sate of war.
They very armistice terms that Israel itself was violating right?
No, it's the fact that Israel won't be able to live up to them, as is he case with ceasefires they repeatedly break.
Israel does not have the authority to make that descision. After all, a thief doesn't get to decide whether they are legally entitled to keep the objects they steal.
False. Olmert offered pieces of E.Jerusalem.
Apart from the fact that in maintaining the settlement blocs (5.5% of the OT) Palestinian territorial contiguity (especially with Jerusalem) would have been severly compromised, no to mention the fact that Olmert’s government approved the construction of thousands of housing units on the settlements just as he was making his “generous offer”, the “offer” was contingent upon Abbas’ PA “regain(ing) control over the Gaza Strip, which the militant group Hamas seized from forces loyal to Abbas in June 2006″.
Nor is ethnic cleansing, mass murder, land theft, violation of the Geneva Conventions on human rights.
You mean like the ICJ?
Outstanding rebuttal Annie,
Burston is simply responding to bluster and obfuscation, because he ultimately knows he can debate you. Israel was founded on violence and terrorism. As Derfner pointed out, it elected terorist leaders to the highest office in the land. Burston's blinkeredness, hypocrisy adn double standards are so extreme, they defy description.
Here are a few prominent Israelis who disgree with Winneca's thesis.
"If I were a Palestinian of the right age, I would join, at some point, one of the terrorist groups."
Ehud Barak
link to haaretz.com
“In South Lebanon we struck the civilian population consciously, because they deserved it…the importance of Gur’s remarks is the admission that the Israeli Army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously…the Army, he said, has never distinguished civilian [from military] targets…[but] purposely attacked civilian targets even when Israeli settlements had not been struck.”
— Israeli military analyst, Ze’ev Schiff (Haaretz, May 15, 1978).
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff.
From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978:
No, nor have most of us seen Hellfire missiles.
Nor can F16's, Apache Helicopters and nukes. Are you arguing that this makes ISrael immoral?
An angry frustarted Israeli Prime ministers can order the bombing of Gaza for no reason.
In order to launch F16 sortie, not to mention doing so for decades, one needs more than the trappings of an international corporation.
Which is what the Israel government of coure – and they’re proud of it.
Go loomk at the tshirts they wear and see how the present themselves.
link to google.com.au
it's actually not huge at all, but very simple.
The London riots began when a police officer shot an unarmed man you dufus. And there have neen riots in many British cities.
Look up the Historyfo British rioting. It's practically a British pastime.
You hasbrats are simply unbelivable. Your arfument sound like they were constructed by 5 year olds.
That is not the point Annie is making.
You falsely claimed that violent response was rarely linked to oppression, and Anni debunked your theis comprehensively.
Incredible stupidity once again. One could argue that it is an instinctive natural response for a man to have sex with a woman he sees on the street and is attracted to. To do so without her conset however if clearly a moral problem.
Of course, it's no surprising that you would think otherwise. Most Zionists seem to exhibit sociopathic tendencies.
So what? That does not prove the opposite ie. That injustice does not lead to violent responses. in fact, the connection between injustice and violence is absolute. Americas prisons are filled with perpetrators of crimes who's persional histories are filled with injustice, which explains why the majority of prisoners are African Americans.
One need only take a piece of propagdna out of the Hasbra playbook. Doesn't the motto of Never Again implicitly mean that that the injustices of the past mean that a repeat of those injustices will be met with resistance, including violence?
No one is arguing that. Israel could chose not to defend itself, but it's defenders would argue that this choice would be unacceptable.
So you agree that self defense and self preservation is also a choice right?
By that standard, every Israeli leaders since (and including Ben Gurion) immoral.
Ever heard of the Waraw uprising?
On the contrary, persecution and violent response and instrincally connected. You obviuosly don't read much history.
How many of them were bombed and massacred by the hundreds at a time?
The he long-suffering populace of North Korea are all North Korean citizens who have chosen their political system.
Ever heard of the ANC, which was considerd a terrorsit organization by the Reagan administration?
Violent responses to suffering are generally a sign of a degree of freedom of movement, thought, and organization, among other causations.
You haven't read any history at all have you?
Tell me Winnica, Do you hasbrats take epective classes is stupidity?
No, you defined Judaism as the practice of Judaism. You threw in culture, upon which I explained that the Ashkenazi and Sephardic/Mizrahi cultures shared had absolutely nothing in common
until they were brought together in Israel.
How can Judaism therefore be a culture, if the culture is not common to all Jews?
No, you seem incapable of honesty and coping with the having the contradictions in your argument pointed out.
Oh please, the 49% refers to those who bothered to vote. Participation in the vote was tiny because no one but the separatists took it seriously.
Most were not interested in voting because the issue didn't matter to them. Obviously the separatists fanatics turned out in droves and were bussing people in to win the vote from all over Canada.
The result shocked Quebec such that no such referendum would ever be allowed to take place again.
Rest assured I won't be ignoring you, so long as you keep making such pathetic and dishonest arguments.
No, I am using Israeli laws to debunk your claim that multiculturalism is as universal as you like to pretend it is.
If we do live in a multicultural world, apartheid Israel apparently doesn't want to be part of it.
That would explain why Michael Oren was required to give up his Anerican citizenship when he became Israel's ambassador to the US.
Having probably spent more time in Quebec and being engaged to a
Quebecker, I know a great deal more about the place than you do.
Polls also show they regard Quebec as part of Canada, and that separatists are regarded as an extremist minority, so your argument is irrelevant.
But Judaism is a religion, not a culture. Judaism can be practiced by societies that do not share a culture, as was the case with the Ashkenazi and Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews prior to the creation if Israel. Israel's culture was invented after the fact.
Jews trying to define Judaism get themselves into a huge hole. This definition excludes secular non religious Jews.
The comparison with Quebecois is absurd . Quebecois do not share particular religion. Culturally, Quebecois are basically Canadians who happen to be born and raised in Quecbec. Every Canadian is free to come and go from Quebec.
Not at all. Apart from the handful of separatist nut jobs, all people living in Montreal insider the fact that they are living in Montreal to no different to people living in Vancouver.
What about it? Unless that Francophone is a separatist, a Francophone living in northern Ontario is just like any other Canadian.
The only thing Quebec separatists share with Israel is the delusion that they can maintain a functional and independent state with a massive welfare cheque from their benefactors.
How's that? Does each child carry a different passport, or do you simply have a perverse idea of parenting?
Not if they're in government. They are employed to serve the interests of the public, not a foreign country.
The US president pledges allegiance to the US and to uphold the Constitution, not the apartheid state of Israel.
Tell that to the Hasbrats who insist being accused of dual loyalty is anti Semitic.
So what is she doing in Florida?
Great observation Andrew.
After all, in 1925, the Palestinians constituted roughly 80% of the demographic in region now known as Israel.
Today it is 20%.
What a dufus this Mayhem is!!
The same could be said of WASPs in the US in 1926 with regard to the Hispanic population.
Demographics will alqays chanfe and in every democracy but Israel, it is considered innevitable - neither goos nor bad.
It's only right wing racists that obsess about maintaining demographic balances.
Poerful Islamophobic bile that makes the simplistic and pin headed argument that Islam is backward and "teaches terrorism" - in spite of the fact that Menachen Begin boasted that he introduced terrorism the region.
I'm sure this reading material forms your intellectual staple along with trash from Dershowitz and Joan Peters.
Isn't it amazing how practically everything the Zionists tell us is a bald faced lie. I mean, you'd expect them to tell the truth once in a while, but they simply don't let up.
Just a couple of links w hich blow the lid off Mayhem's repugnant Hasbra.
The Beleaguered Christians in Bethlehem
link to stonegateinstitute.org
Christians Discriminated Against by Israel
link to truthtellers.org
ISRAEL'S INCREASING ANTI-CHRISTIANITY
link to truthtellers.org
Why Are Palestinian Christians Leaving Israel?
link to sojo.net
Jimmy Carter Says Israel ‘Pressured’ And Encouraged Christians To Leave Palestine
link to thegatewaypundit.com
We know you're a pathological liar Mayhem, but you are really outdoing yourself this time.
That's simply rubbish. It was not until Saddam was toppled that the Christian population in Iraq (one if the oldest in the ME) was effectively wiped out.
False. The Syrian population are among Assad's strongest supporters, because he explicitly offers protection to them.
And then along came the Zionist invaders and expelled them.
No kidding Annie.
I guess it's fair to say that Katushas, Qassams and Grad rockets are also imperfect.
As in an impperfect massacre?
Leave to go where?
Another corner of their cage?
Or leave so that they could shoot them in the back as they left?
Or led them to a house where they could be more easily bombed to death when it was targetted?
Don't be silly Talknic, there's nothing to forgive. On the contrary, I for one am grateful for your extraordinary contributions. You and HOstage are without a doubt, 2 of the most valuable controbutors to this topic anywhere on the internet. So thank you.
As for havign to repeat arguments, join the club. Every time a new hasbrat comes along, they are guaranteed to repeat the same BS and it has to debunked, not matter how laborious and monotinous it might seem, because every time they get way with posting their crap without being challenged, those who are just reading will assume it to be true.
Keep up the great work.
The right wing calls for Palestinians to be expelled from Palestine. The left wing insists they be expelled in air conditioned busses.
Don't you just love how the fascist trolls have suddenly become Fink's number one fans?
Yeah right, why would a Palestinians speak for the Palestinians when a European settler like dim knows better?
That would mean there are no secular Jews, because failing to practice Judaism would preclude them from being Jewish.
Israel are not offering citizenship only to those who iriginated from Israel. Fail!
Israel are not offering citizenship only to ethnic Israelis and descendants of ethnic Israelis born abroad. Fail!
Again, Israel are not offering citizenship only to those of Israeli origin. Fail again!
Again, Israel are not offering citizenship only to ethnic Israelis. Fail again!
See above. Fail!
See above. Fail!
Same goes for Cyprus, Finland, Ireland.
None of your arguments are even remotely applicable to apartheid Israel.
Definition of Repatriation:
1. to send back (a refugee, prisoner of war, etc.) to the country of his birth or citizenship.
2. To restore or return to the country of birth, citizenship, or origin: repatriate war refugees.
IN the case of Israel, ROR is offered to those who have not been norn in Israel, are not citizens of Israel, and most certainly never originated from Israel.
FAIL!
<blockquoteIt falls on the Palestinians that initiated the conflict in the first place …
The ISraelis already admitted they initiated. I guess reality isn't your strong point.
Ten why did Israel attack Gaza knowing that such an attack would incite such rocket attacks? Why did Israel do it in 2008, when there had been 4 months of calm?
Israel has been bombing and occupying for a lot longer than that.
Actually, it was Fatah who commited the violent coup agaist Hamas, under orders from Washington adn Tel Aviv.
As for rockets being fired, there was an occupation before the withdrawal, after the withdrawal, after Hamas was elected and after Fatah committed a bloody, violent coup against Hamas.
Not nly that, but Israel fired as many shelld in 10 months and the number of rockets Hamas fired in 10 years.
You mean so that Israel can come up with a phony excuse to bomb it again? An incidentally, your government has been vilently commited to preventing such a state from emerging since it invaded Lebanon.
Israel murdered 330 children during Cast Lead alone.
Israel deliberately drop bombs on Gaza with the deliberate intent of killing people. Israeli propagandisst accuse Palestinians of using children as human shields, but if that is the case, all this proves is that Israel has decided that killing those children to hit their targets is justified.
Hence, killing children is fully intentional.
That's precisley why Israel's reputation lies aloingside that of North Ko
Thanks for sharing your reading material with us Oleg. We can now put to rest any suggestion you are any kind of progressive.
A right wing extremist you are.
So how many Palestinian children has Israel murdered since January 2009 ?
The story of Jesus is a myth that has been recycled about a dozen times, and is identical to the story if Horus, Shiva and many other dieties.
It cannot be proven because Jesus never existed.
The Jewish population in Iran fears living under Israeli rule too apparently. They also fear loosing their Israeli citizenship. What do they know that you don’t Gilad?
So Ccording to our resident religious extremist, the fact that there is no evidence Jesus, Abraham and David existed, lives they existed
I guess that explains why they keep insisting that Iran has nukes even when the Mossad says otherwise.
You have to admire the selective reasoning of these Hasbrats. On one hand, they insist the territory was ruled by the Ottoman Empire, and thus it was not Palestinian, on the other they insist that Jerusalem has always been Jewish.
They also argue that Turks enactec laws forbidding the sale of land to Jews, yet they insist that Jews acquired their land legally through the purchase from Arab landlords and the Ottomsn Empire.
Being a Hasbratvmeans the truth is whatever you say it is.
I second that.
I saw him speak in Sydney and he was very powerful and very moving. He is one of the very few speakers that evoke empathy for both sides of the conflict, even though he states from the otuset that he has no interest in being even handed.
That might seem important to religious extremists, but it is insignificant in terms of claims to the territory.
None of whom exer existed acept in fairy tales.
Except offering equal rights, return stolen land or stop stealing more of it.
Probably becayse the Islamic leaders you are refrring to did not say Jews and wiping Israel off the map. Regime change in Jerusalem does not mean the anihiation of Jews.
Notice that Peled completely ignores mention of the importance of Jerusalem to Jews and Judaism.
Notice how irrelevant it is? After all, didn't the Jews accept UNGAR181 - which meant Jerusalem was not part of Israel? Obviously it coudln;t have been that important.
But he completely ignores the need for Palestinians, if they are to be neighbors of Jews, to recognize and accept as equals, the desire and need of both people to have a physical connection to the holy sites.
You're simply a religious extrmist with no concept pof reality.
Yeah, right, the son of a serior Genral in the 1967 war is detached from reality. And you're perfectly in touch with it, with all the facts and evidence available to you.
Unfortunately there are many such Israeli’s who view themselves as Israeli and not Jewish.
That's because they are Israeli and not Jewish, and that it not including the 20% who are Arab. There are huge numbers fo Russian who never even converted to Judaism.
He wasn't pushed anywhere. His family, who is stil vey close to, lives in Jerusalem.
On the contrary. he speaks with huge respect, lve and reverence for his father. You're projecting.
So much for your grip in reality.
False.
Iarael began the violence and the rockets were fired as a result.
Israel attacked Gaza killing civilians first.
Unless Israel acts with strength its opponents have and will cintinue to fire rockets and every now and then manage to kill somebody.
The exact opposite is true. There were no rockets fired until Israel acted without provocation - just as it did in 2008.
What that a google translation from another language Oleg? The sentence is illegible.
And why is the water, electricity and food is coming from Israel? Becasue:
a. Israel has imposed a blockade on food comming into the territory
b. Israel has destroyed Gaza's civlian infrastructure, so that they are unable to provide they own water and electricity .
You Zionists really should listen to yourselves once in a while. Perhaps even try the excrcise of reversing the circumstances between Israelis and Palestinians. Maybe then, the degree of sadism and collective siociopathy you display might become apparent to you.
The only thing that sepeartes the Islmaic militants and Israeli leadership, is that the Israelis are in a position to make good on their threats. If the population in Gaza was armed with an ariforce of F16's and other state of the art weaponry, you wouldn't be displaying such a patrinizing and superior tone. You'd be taking such resistacne very seriously.
You people are nothignmore than cowards with very big guns who think military superiority means moral authority and credibility.
That’s the problem with the guys in Gaza they feel obliged to say the last word
so they keep on firing till the last second before some truce takes effect
risking that they actually get a “successful” hit and get
the whole of Gaza into Cast Lead 2.0 something that nobody wants at the moment.
Right Oleg. As your fellow sadist Mayhem argued in another thread, they should just be grateful Israel didn't more more houses and kill more children and go away and wait for the next time Israel feel like bombing Gaza for no reason.
Barghouti didn't even mention settler violence ad I realm, though most of it is being protected by members of the Knesset, so it's tolerated, if not Israeli policy.
Can someone remind Gilad that neither Fatah nor Hamas, not any Palestinian group had anyhthing to do with this break and enter/murder?
Was Egypt attacking to retake the Sinai only, or to destroy Israel as Mizrahi said?
Retake the Sonai. Nasser had made repeated requests for Israel to pull back only 2 km from their position. As usual, Israel would have nothing if it.
The claim if efforts to destroy Israel are thrown around to describe any policies or actions that stand in Israel's way.
How about the policy that demands Iran stop making nukes when all 16 intelligence agencies and Mossad unanimously agree Iran hasn't even decided to try.
Pure genius.
Having a Western passport improves the odds. Don't drink beer.
While like do many others who have visited Israel, Inwas shocked, deeply disturbed, and saddened, counseling was not necessary. Unlike the millions who have to live under such the oppressive rule of the fascist apartheid state of Israel, I had the luxury of being able to leave.
Yes, you are sanguine about all this because the US has given you so many arms that you needn't worry about any reprecussions from the Palestinians. You're leasders can commence slaughternign Gazan's at a whim and it doesn't affect your day, thogh undoutedly, you'll still insist that Israel is being attacked and has to defend itself.
Yes I have been to Israel, as have a nmber of friends of mine. We all agree it's an apartheid state - one of the most racist, disturbing and surreal places on earth.
Even George Bush Jnr (the most pro US president in history)was shocked and digusted by what he saw when he visited the West Bank.
BTW. Another think that makes me angry is when a shameless bully like Netenyahu doesn't get gmhis way in Washington (where he didn't get his war with Iran), and returns back home to take it out on a defenseless population.
Reminds me of a wife beater who gets humiliated by other men and bashes his wife to proverb affirm his masculinity.
Zero credibility in who's eyes? Shahs and Likud?
You obviously don't even know who Gur is. Mordecai Gur was an Israeli politician and the 10th Chief of Staff of the IDF.
Obviously a rabbid left winger.
Like I said, look up Dahiya Doctrine - an unambiguous policy of targeting civilians.
Where did you get the 20 militants figure from? The same lying scum bags that keep changing the resin for attacking Gaza?
Right after you explain how dropping bombs from F16 attack planes constitutes urbane warfare.
What makeshift angry is when gutless scum bags, who would soil themselves at the first sight of an armed opponent, wantonly murder women and children, the label them militants and claim they ate defending their country.
Like all Israeli apologists, you're nothing more than a fascist sadist. Little wonder Israel's reputation is in the gutter with North Korea.
BTW Asherpat,
What Gur was describing is identical to the Dahiya doctrine, which was conceived in 2006 and applied in 2008/2009 and continues to be applied.
@Shingo – 1978, you must have stayed there…
It was policy then and it is policy today. Nothing has changed in Israel's strategy.
Really?
“In South Lebanon we struck the civilian population consciously, because they deserved it…the importance of Gur’s remarks is the admission that the Israeli Army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously…the Army, he said, has never distinguished civilian [from military] targets…[but] purposely attacked civilian targets even when Israeli settlements had not been struck.”
and...
"The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets.
[Israeli military analyst, Ze’ev Schiff (Haaretz, May 15, 1978).]
I said Israel were armed to the teeth with F16′s Apache helicopters, and 1000lb bombs.
It makes you wonder what kind of whimps the Israelis are when they are armed to the teeth with state fo the art weapons, (F16's Apache helicopters, and 1000lb bombs), yet the throught of the Palestinians even having WWII era weapons makes them seeth with indignation.
Devoid of logic?
How about devoid of reality? What evidence is there that anyone killed in Gaza had anything to do with the Eilat attack?
None.
I don't have to. You're tehone claiming they are GRAD missiles, so either you can prove it or you can't.
Another great piece by Ali Abunimah, who sums up the same argument as Max.
This weekend’s attacks have followed a typical pattern. Israel launches a lethal attack knowing full well that Palestinian resistance factions will respond. It then uses the response—dozens of rockets falling on Israel rarely causing injuries or damage—as the very pretext for continued bombing. Israel also claims to have shot down several dozen incoming missiles using its US-subsidized “Iron Dome” anti-missile system.
link to electronicintifada.net
Blumenthal has wrongly claimed “Finally in November, Egyptian security forces arrested the suspected mastermind of the Eilat plot, shattering the Israeli army’s initial claims about Gazan culpability.
Wrong as usual Mayhem.
What Blumenthal writes is not contradicted by the maannews report. Blumenthal said that the Egyptian security forces arrested the suspected mastermind of the Eilat plot. He did not say that the suspect was arrestd on charges of terrorists acts.
Secondly, the fact that the sustepct died in a Cairo prison in February does not contradict the vlaim by Blumenthal that he was arrested in November. The very fact he dies in a Cairo prison obviously means he had to have been arrested.
Fail!
Put up or shut up Asher. I asked you to produce evidence that the rockets used were Grad rockets.
I'm not interested in your theories.
How many Grad rockets were fired during this exchange?
Do provodr the link if you would.
Seeing as the Syrian rebels are made up of Al Qaeda, Levy might be onto something.
I recall Bush called Sharon a man of peace.
100 rockets in retaliation? Where did yo read that Oleg?
Well, you convinced me with that compelling and rock solid rebuttal Oleg.
Israeli intelligence has already proved it to be a lie.
Now are you going to apologize to Max for jumping in on this thread without reading his column?
Or, based on Israel's track record:
if you are quiet, we will be quiet until we decide we don't feel like being quiet. In which case, we will react to any response from you and call it self defense.
(after all, Gaza was quiet for 4 months in 2008, and Israel sti attacked)
if you shoot, or plot attacks, we will hit you, and so the ball is certainly in their court, and even if you don't, we will accuse you of doing it just do that we have an excuse to hit you
Rubbish. Levy lays put the facts very simply:
Who started it? The IDF and the Shin Bet security service did.
Shin Bet does not deny this all began with a targetted killing. It's a fact.
You're simply a troll at calling from the bleachers.
You're trolling Oleg.
You said Levy was wrong, but havdnpt produced one iota of evidence to back up this claim.
So what do you have that makes Levy wrong? You said you respected him, so either you ate calling him a liar or you're trolling.
Which is it!
Poor Mayhem can't even get up to speed with the revelations about the BD behind Israel's actions.
1. Gideon Levy and Max Blumenthal have already exposed the fraud behind Israel's recent actions.
2. The Guardian explained that Israel broke the truce and reported Israel 's long discredit excuse for the raid on Gaza. Uri Avnery explained how the Israeli story was full of holes and Wikipedia revealed that Israel decided that it would be necessary to sabotage the truce because Hamas were benefitting from the truce politically - and this was giving Hamas legitimacy.
3. Mayhem expects us to accept that throttle rockets from Gaza are of the same magnitude and pose the same threat as an Israeli F16 dropping 500 and 1000 lb bombs.
Ge does not bother to consider that the blockade itself is a flagrant act of war (and illegal) and that Israel would respond even more ferociously if they were blockaded.
Indeed, the mother of all ironies is that hasbrats like Mayhem would be the first to defend Israel's attack on Egypt in 1967 on response to a blockade that affected less than 5% of Israeli shipping. Yet Hamas and militants in Gaza are supposed to accept a blockade that affects 100% of shipping by taking it on the chin.
Mayhem rightly blames for the indiscriminate shelling of innocent civilians (obviously implying that civilians in Gaza are not innocent) in spite if the fact that Israeli attacks destroyed civilian homes and killed civilians.
He argues the fact that because Israel has a superior military apparatus (provided at US taxpayer expense) that this automatically confers legitimacy to Israel.
Those who ate weak and unable to defend themselves obviously deserve to be killed. That's the sick and sadistic mind of the Zionist for you.
Another profound and comprehensive rebuttal that totally destroys Levi's argument.
You blow my mind Oleg.
The fallacy begins with you ignoring the fact that Israel continues to impose a brutal, illegal and inhumane blockade on Gaza, which is not only an act of war, but based unjustified.
November 4th 2008, when Israel grossly violated a 4 month ceasefire and killed 6 Palestinians - again without justification.
There's plenty more documented here:
Reigniting Violence: How Do Ceasefires End? link to huffingtonpost.com
This is the epitome of arrogance. The only reason Israeli apologists even get away with this insufferable display of superiority is because they are armed to the teeth by the US. Otherwise, Israel would spend less to except using restraint and more time agreeing to permanent ceasefires and diplomacy.
At least wait until Marc Regev comes up with a talking point that Oleg can use.
So Israel gets to bomb Gaza whenever it feels like it, but when Gazan's retaliate, Israel reserves the right to punishment for not taking it on the chin?
Got it.
Of course you're not interested Oleg, because you run the risk of the truth getting out.
link to desertpeace.wordpress.com
Looks more like preservation of fascism and apartheid.
I second that. The piece in the economist is excellent.
Realy? I tell you what Fred, I'll stand in front of a rock (wearing body armor and a helmet and you stand in fron a a bullet without that protection. Lets see who lives to tell about it.
You really are a sadist.
Who do you know can through a rock at 100 MP Fred? Wodl you rather face a sniper bullet? They tend to be a bit faster than 100MPH
Because the stuff Israel was allowing to pass through the check points was not supplied by Israe but by the UN and the international community. It was also the most basic of items, nothning that the Egyptians would even want.
You lost the rond 3 days ago Fred.
There was a ceasefire in place that even Israel's MFA admitted Hamas were observiong with great care, so there is no basis to the claim that the tunnel was going to be used for an attack. What possible good would an attack bring Hamas when they were doing so well politicially from the ceasfire?
Your argument simply does not hold water.
As opposed to your contention that the Israelis _knew_ it was to be used for kidnapping Israeli soldiers? That's far more outlandish and absurd.
Really? Where? Based on what non Isralei government claim?
You're losing it Fred. If a tunnel that was incomplete doesn’t count, then how can you claim it was goign to be used for attacks? You're hasbra is DOA.
The one that was atatcked in November 2008 was one of them.
Most are on the banned list. After all, Israel won't even allow scholl books, pencil and pasta to get through - that's apparently reagrded as having a military use.
The stuff the Egyptians want certainly wouldn't come through check points.
Planned according to whom? Oh that's right, the centre for lies and BS aka the Israeli MFA.
You see, you're a calssic example fo the Israeli feedback loop. Israle blows up a tunnel becasue they claim it was used to smuggle weapons and kidnap soldiers. The convenient thing being that becasue the tunnel is now blown up, there is no evidence to support or refute Israel's claims.
Just like you never heard of the Peace Road Map right?
Last year, Israeli financial newspaper Calcalist quoted Egyptian media as saying that the demand for Israeli products was growing in the northern Sinai. According to the article, Gazans have been smuggling Israeli goods outbound from the Gaza tunnels and into Egypt, where customers are demanding higher-quality Israeli goods - even when they are more expensive than local products. Vendors say that the Israeli products are in high demand. In the past they would erase the "Made in Israel" logos, but they no longer do, as it is a selling point.
link to calcalist.co.il
'Tunnels being used to smuggle goods out of Gaza'
link to jpost.com
The goods in question were or course among those officially banned by Israel, so the only way they got into Gaza in the firs place was via tunnels. Why would the Egyptians request such gods from Gaza if they came from the Sinai to begin with?
You've been a joke on this forum Fred. Go back to your hasbra mother ship and get a tune up.
LOL. It has been widely reported that Hamas smuggles goods from Israel as well as Egypt.
Do you actually read what you write?
Do you read what the MFA drip feeds you?
LOL. How did they know then that the tunnel was going to be used to kidnap Israeli soldiers if they didn't know where it was going to exit?
Do you actually read what you write?
Correction. That's the Israeli government version, whcih we know is complete BS.
As Wikileaks revealed, for months prior to this unprovoked attack by Israel, the Israeli leaders were becomming increasingly anxious that the ceasefire was benefitting Hamas politically. The problem was that Hamas were sticking to the ceasefire very strictly and this presented multiple problems for the Israelis:
1. The longer the ceasefire lasted, the more legitimate Hamas was becomming, whic would lead to Israel being pressured to deal with Hamas diplomatically.
2. The ceasefire was due to expire in December. Hamas would have agreed to a continuation whereas Israel did not want it to continue, but of course, this would have looked bad PR wise. Israel needed a pretext for rejecting the ceasefire without appearing to the world that they didn't want peace.
Thus, Israel's leaders decided that a military option was necessary to put and end to all the peace.
This was debunked by Jimmy Carter and Uri Avnery. Carter pointd ou that the tunnel was used for smuggling goods into Gaza. Avnery pointed out the monmental absurdity in Israel's claims. If the tunnel was indeed intended to kidnap Israeli soldiers stationed on the border, then they could have:
1) Moved teh soldiers out fo harms way
2)) Set up am ambush at the tunnel entrance in the Israeli side and caught Hamas red handed
Israel simply came up with a BS argument to justify a raid on Gaza that they knew would provoke a response, thereby providing the pretext for ending the ceasefire.
Yeah same old Zionist argument, like killing babies in case they grow up to be terrorists.
The hostile act was the fact that Israel agreed to lift the blockade as part of the ceasefire but never lifted it. That left Hamas no option but to use tunnels to continue to smuggle gods into Gaza.
Correction Fred. Israel chose the day of the US elections to break 4 month ceasefire - without any reason or justification other than to start a war, and then ended it days before the inauguration.
Bibbi is neither of those.
Cheer up Oleg. I'm sure you but jobs will find a reason to start a war soon enough.
Rubbish. It's a pitty you pin headed hasbrats don't actually read what your leaders have said.
Netenyahu admitted to Goldberg that the problem with Iran having nukes is not that Iran would use them, but that:
1. It would lead to a brain drain in Israel, as educated and skilled Israelis migrated to other states
2. It would limit Israel's ability to operate with impunity against Hamas and Hezbollah. In fact, when it looked like the Russians were about to sell Israel the S300 anti aircraft missiles, the head of the IAF complained that such weapons (whcih are defensive only) woudl limit ISrael ability to operate in the region.
Israel has never liked the idea of a fair fight.
Ehud Barak has admitted that would not be a threat even if Iran had nukes. Tzipi Livni has said the same thing.
Daniel Peltka from the AEI (ie. Likud Central in the US) said the greatest danger is not that Iran would use it's nukes, but that it would not and therefore prove itself to be a rational actor on the world stage.
The head of the Joint Chiefs testified before the Senate recently that Iran's leaders are rational actors.
Of course, the fact that Israel has Nuclear ICBM’s aimed at Iran (including nuclear armed submarines parked off the coast of Iran) doesn't seem to bother you. That's the kind of moral tunnel vision we've come to expect from ethnocentric supremacists.