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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Israel's economical miracle? What miracle? Israel is successful economically compared to neighboring Arab countries but not compared to West European states. It would be interesting to know how successful Arab and other countries would have been if had been blessed with millions of highly educated adult immigrants with international connections, knowhow and capital. Not to mention the constant flow of US and Jewish donations, money pumped out of Soviet Union/Russia and Holocaust "royalties" from Europe. Israel compared to the comparison group it wants to be compared - the "western" democracies - is no economical miracle. In 1968 Israel's GDP per capita was on the same level as Japan's or Italy's and ahead of Greece's or Ireland's. Now only Greece is behind Israel.
Every video in tv news (for example) is always edited and "describes" the view of the person who took it. Edited in this case only means that sections of no action are cut out or were originally not taken on the video. IDF and border police have in their vehicles cameras and they surely video all events. They could easily prove using their own video evidence, that it did not happen like shown. But they never do. Not in the Eisner's case and certainly not in this case.
Every German (and Austrian) young person had to join Hitller Jugend if they wanted to avoid severe personal and family sanctions. They had no options. Where does a 10 - 15 year old boy or girl go in a totalitarian state if he/she doesn't agree? Hitler Jugend was a nationalistic combination of scouts and political Sunday schools.
It is idiotic to claim that those teenagers had in Nazi Germany a change to radical "moral" decisions. Ratzinger went to Hitler Judend because he had to do that. Günther Grass was called to Waffen SS because ALL German boys of his age were commanded to join the army. What should those 16 - 17 years old boys have done, when even adults had no options? The young boys went to defend their country, not the political ideology or order.
Tear gas launchers are in fact grenade launchers. The difference is the ammunition, but functionality is exactly the same. Tear gas launchers / riot guns have a sight like rifles have. It is a rather absurd argument to claim that the police/soldier firing a tear gas launcher (= grenade launcher) has no possibility to aim and no control were the grenade will land. Look at the US model M-32 6 shot 40 mm launcher which can be used as a riot gun. Some example pictures of Israelis using riot guns with sights.
link to 972mag.com
link to english.al-akhbar.com
Well what do you Giladg think about those "romantic" former Pols, Germans, Russians and Americans who patrol in Palestine convinced that they have the right to those lands because they claim that their God gave it to them 4000 years ago.
Of course Iran is militarily no threat to anybody. The country is barely able to defend its own territory. It has a badly outdated air force, a weak coastal navy etc. Iran is no match in a traditional war against Saudis, Pakistan, USA etc. Every military expert knows that. Iran has the military capacity to make an attack against it relative expensive to the attacker, but that is all.
The only reason why Iran is seen as a threat is that it doesn't obey USA and the west. Iran is seen as a threat because it has shown its potential in becoming a real regional power, the nuclear issue is only a pretext which can not be solved. An industrially developed 80 million peoples' Iran with its huge natural (= financial in the end) resources is a nightmare to Israel especially when that Iran is not in the famous US leash. A five million Jews' state can only be the leading dominant regional power if big countries like Iran, Egypt and Turkey are hindered to develop and lead to long internal wars. Israel has actively supported the breaking of Sudan not because it loves democracy and the idea that people should have the right to govern themselves, but because it wants that same to happen in all Middle East except naturally in Israel/Palestine.
Sensitive? Why? Facts are facts. Jews are surely not and have not been the Romani people of Europe. We all know the numerous Nobel prices and famous Jewish business families and their achievements. Name one ethnic minority which has succeeded better in the field of education and wealth?
The Poland education facts can be found on the page
link to en.wikipedia.org
One example of the wealth of the Jews is the claim that one third of the German costs of WW2 was financed with the properties taken from Jews.
link to haaretz.com
As said Jews were a small minority in Germany in the 30's. Small but rich.
I find it a bit absurd how the same people can in one sentence brag about the achievements of their brothers and sisters in religion and in the next sentence describe how abused they are and have always been. The indisputable achievements of the Jews are well known. These achievements are not possible for people treated as the lowest in the society.
Also an interesting and less explained point in the Jewish "history" is how Jews managed to become the best educated and richest minority in Europe and USA. An astonishing achievement for a minority which claims all the time being undermined and heckled. Sure what happened in WW2 was a great tragedy, but most of time Jews had rather good times compared for example to Romani people.
Before WW2 in Poland Jews were excellently represented in professions like doctors (56% of all doctors in Poland), teachers (43%), journalists (22%) and lawyers (33%). Jews represented then about 10 percent of the population. Hardly possible for a pariah ethnic/religious group. Imagine that in Israel over much 50 percent of doctors or one third of lawyers would be Israeli Arabs (20 percent of the population). Then we could not speak about Apartheid, we would speak about the majority's dissatisfaction with the "situation" .
Avner Cohen doesn't mention in his Haaretz article the most important fact. That the Osirak reactor was a small light water research reactor, built by the French and under IAEA supervision. Producing enough plutonium for a nuclear bomb with that reactor would have been impossible and Israelis knew that. Osirak was a Israeli message to the Arab world - "We do not allow you to become industrially and technologically developed". Operation Opera (Osirak bombing) was a as heroic military operation as the bombing of Lebanese dairy plant (Liban Lait) was. The defence around the reactor was primitive and almost not existing. Operation Opera was a great military victory only in the Israeli Jewish folklore and propaganda.
Claiming that Iran would give nuclear materials to terrorist organizations is rather absurd. What guaranties does the world have that Israeli nuclear materials do not get in the hands of extreme Jewish terrorist organizations. What is the guaranty that if a peace is achieved through a two state solution the settlers "brown shirts" do not leave a nuclear "price tag" greeting. None - especially when those religious/nationalistic extremists have members on every level of the "system".
And the "amusing" thing is that the chemical weapons and technology to deliver them was sold by the "West" to Arabs and Iranians. USA delivered to Saddam the gas weapon and Israel made healthy profits by selling battle gas technology and components to Iran. Rather hypocritical that US and Israeli outrage of the gassing of the Kurds during Iraq Iran war.
Yonira have you ever bothered to think why are they shooting those primitive mostly nobody hurting rockets from Gaza? It is asthonishing how "you" always pretend to be victims. On the other hand what have the crimes of others to do with the punishment of Israeli crimes. Equally could be said that German SS and leaders were punished, Israeli "SS" and leaders have / are not.
If the "Gaza rockets" give a justification for Israelis to kill Palestinian women and children, then Palestinians have also a justification to kill scores of Israelis. With the 1:1 ratio the Palestinians have already a rather big revenge "opportunity" in this your "Gaza rockets" way of moral. For the last 60 years Israeli Jews have not been the passive receivers, they have been the active aggressors.
If a religious/ethnic group was/is in reality treated like shit, they do not get positions in the upper owning classes and man the educational institutions in a completely disproportional ratio. They would be beggars and at the best do the lowest ranked jobs in the society. Were the Jews that? No.
Somehow the Jewish history writing is a strange mixture of whining of constant pogroms (A) and "fierce" bragging of unquestionable and remarkable social achievements (B). The problem is that if A is true B can not be. Or if B is true A is not. Lets take the Polish example. If Jews were persecuted in that amount Jewish history writing wants us to believe, how could a 10 percent minority "produce" over halve of the country's doctors (etc)?
This constant playing the victim role is a bit annoying even knowing that it is propaganda. The most economically and educationally successful minority in Europe have been the Jews. And it has been that already for a long time. It might be a surprise to many that in Poland before the WW2 56 percent of all doctors were Jews, 43 % of teachers, 22% of journalists and 33 % of layers. An astonishing achievement for a 10 % percent minority (imagine if the Palestinians had such representation in those professions, could we then speak of a pariah minority).
Jews in general represented the wealthier upper and middle classes in Europe and Arab countries. Surely there were dark periods but in general Jews were not in the status of the Israeli Palestinians of our times or the Romani people of Europe. Jews have been ministers and prime ministers "outside" Israel, not to mention the countless professors, influential bankers and media owners.
Sure I know. Christmas is celebrated on the old pagan holiday, winter solstice. Anyway, Christmas with the name Christmas is a Christian holiday and Judaism has a bit "difficult" relationship with Jesus, whose birthday is celebrated on Christmas. Now when Israel is in a very much emphasising its Jewish character as a country it is a rather hypocritical to pretend to be a secular country. For Judaism inviting guests to celebrate Christmas is encouraging to celebrate a holiday on a false (for them) prophet's birthday. If somebody should invite the Chilean miners to the Holy Land it is the Christian Churches and people of Bethlehem, not a Jewish right-wing extremist minister.
Well what is the reason then for inviting them, if it is not purely the propagandist aim? Israel is a self declared Jewish nation which doesn't celebrate Christmas and Chilean miners are mostly Catholics. This invitation is as hypocritical as it would be inviting the miners to Mecca or Tehran to celebrate Christmas. Actually more because Islam gives more "authority" to Jesus than Judaism does.
Is Israel beginning to claim Christmas as "their" holiday and beginning to build a image for Israel as the Santa Claus home country?
Well Baruch if UN would make a hypothetical partition plan where 50 percent of your land and properties would be taken in return for nothing you would surely resist. Of course those who get are "happy" and those who have by force to give are not "happy".
If UN would now make a new partition plan for all Israel / Palestine and give 50 percent of the lands to both Jews and Palestinians. Who would Baruch be now stupid and resist the division plan? Hardly the Palestinians and Arabs in general. Not even the generous division plan with 67 borders is enough for Israeli Jews. Stupid isn't it?
CIA - the world handbook doesn't tell that Israel would be the 4th among EU states with GDP (PPP) per capita. Before Israel are Luxembourg, Ireland, Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, UK, Germany, Spain, France, Spain, Greece, Italy and Slovenia. Maybe Witty you have your own internet Mossad CIA handbook with own "facts".
The notion that Israel is important and becoming more significant to EU and rest of the world is hilarious if we speak about the economy and what Israel produces. Nothing produced in Israel is vital to EU or the world and is or could be produced easily elsewhere.
Turkey is ten times bigger than Israel in population size and its economy is 4.5 times bigger than Israel's. For Turkey to flourish it needs regional peace and stability. Israel's business idea is based solely on regional instability and chaos, on which Israel's disproportional political influence is based. Turkey has much trade with neighbours. Israel basically none.
Israel nukes and aggressive attitude are a threat to Turkey like they are to all in the neighbourhood, including EU. It is certain that the EU and other (China,Turkey, Indonesia etc) troops on Lebanese border monitor and gather information much more of Israel's procedures, actions and forces than they monitor Hezbollah. Let's remember the Israeli acts against German spy ships after Lebanon war.
The only state in the region that has unconditionally rejected the existence of another state in the region is Iran.
Come-on. Iran has not rejected the existence of Israel. The only one who de facto is rejecting the existence of a state in the region is Israel. If not why wasting billions (US money) in building settlements on another states side. Arabs, Palestinians and Iranians have several times informed that they can live with 1967 borders. The problem has been and is Israel, which pursues regional dominance.
Witty your propaganda is amusing. Israel would not be the number 4 in GDP per capita among EU members. Not with GDP (PPP) or nominal GDP per capita figures. Behind Israel are only the new East European member states. One of the top 14 in GDP among all EU members? Funny. EU has 27 members of which several have a smaller population compared to Israel, Baltic states, Malta, Cyprus, Luxenbourg etc which causes the Israel's position with a bigger population. Iran would be higher on the same list than Israel would be. Not to mention Turkey.
I do not understand from where you fanatical Israel supporters get your GDP data. Israel is not especially rich or advanced compared to western countries. Israel is in no way important or vital for EU in economical terms. Neither is it for Middle Eastern countries. Israel's importance is solely based on the military and political disturbance it creates and USA's support.
Claiming that Turkey and Israel officially reconciled yesterday is "positive Israeli thinking" after a one hour meeting between the presidents. Turkey has lately clearly signalled that it is "number one" in the region, not Israel. Turkey has also signalled that it doesn't tolerate the instability Israel is creating in the region. Nothing in that aspect has changed. Let us notice it is the Israeli officials and politicians who visit Turkey and/or want to meet with Turks. Not Turks visiting Israel. That shows that Israel is now the underdog in the regional rivalry. Soon Israel and its supporters must understand that Israel is a small country with the muscles of a small country.
Hamas has clearly several times said that 67 borders are OK for them. Do you Witty truly believe that Israel favours a two-state solution? Israel favours a two state model where the other state has no land or that the other state is Jordan.
zionist rejectionist
a person who rejects a a policy demanded by the majority of the world, esp. a Jew or Israel supporter who refuses to accept peace with Palestinians and Arabs using old religious claims that God promised the land to them.
Well that is amusing - hold accountable (with limits). When has USA held Israel accountable? Not after 1956.
Both economically and militarily this "brother’s keeper” relationship doesn't make any sense to USA. In 2008 USA exported to Israel worth 5.5 billion Euro and imported from there worth 13.6 billion. So the trade deficit was 8.1 billion. If we add to it the billions in loans and donations this relationship doesn't make any economical sense to USA .
Militarily the relationship doesn't give any "help" to USA in Middle East. USA can not use Israeli troops in coalitions around Middle East. The ability to use occasionally Israeli airports and harbours is not worth the costs. Israel is useful as a partner in war only in a total war.
From the aspect of democracy and free trade Israel is a huge political and diplomatic covenant for USA.
Same conclusions could be made with the Israel EU relationship, besides the fact that EU had in 2008 a 3 billion surplus in the trade with Israel.
Well if Israel had the right to be created through invasion and ethnic cleansing in modern times then the Arabs have the same right to do the same in future.
This pro-Israeli defence "you have done the same" is idiotic. The majority of Jews live as a tiny majority among "others". The reality with Israeli Jews is that they are surrounded by hundreds of millions of Arabs and Muslims. It is naive to believe that Israel could manipulate the geopolitical "system" so successfully for the next 50 - 100 years that the balance of power would stay in Israel's favour. In the end Arabs will unite and pop the pimple. What is done now determines how the pimple popping is done.
If "we" now approve the ethnic cleansing and apartheid system done by Jews, "we" hardy can morally judge when after 25 years from now the Gaza inhabitants are replaced by some millions of Jews. Or can "we"?
Both Judaism and Islam have their own religious laws and a legal system based on it. Some use it most do not.
Islam accepts people from every race to be a "member". Judaism is a much more closed club. So in that accept Judaism is more racist.
When Jews were in Warsaw ghetto and camps, where were the Zionist leaders? In Soviet Union, Britain, Palestine and USA protected by foreign governments. So yonira let's not be hypocritical.
It is interesting to read the comments in Israeli press about the Turkish "development". Israelis seem to believe that Turkey's new attitude exists simply because a "religious" party has the power. They do not seem to understand that what Turkey is doing are done because Turkey is the major power in the region, not Israel, and now it has decided to show its real weight. The chaos Israel is deliberately creating in the region hurts Turkish economical and security interests.
Israelis seem not to understand if Europe and USA are forced to choose between Turkey and Israel the result is Turkey. Without Turkey on board EU can forget the vital energy links from Middle East. EU and USA simply can not afford Turkey to "glide" closer to Russia and China. Israelis seem honestly to believe that Israel is important in economical and military sense to Europe. But it is rather difficult to understand on what that belief is founded.
Then Carnas when "we" speak about the occupation of France in WW2 or Warsaw Ghetto so we should always remember to mention that also Germans were killed.
Of course Israeli Jews have been killed during the occupation. However it could fairly be said that if Israeli Jews had ended the occupation and found a solution there would have not been those killed Israeli Jews. So long the Israeli Jews are not willing to end the violent occupation and enslavement Palestinians only option is to make the price of occupation so high to Israelis that they are willing to find a peaceful solution. If Israeli continue this present line for the next lets say 25 years there will be a plenty more of killed Jews. Should we be more sad about those future killed Jews or more of that that Israel doesn't want to make justified fair solution?
You did forget to mention the help Israel gave to Idi Amin for his coup.
Especially if Palestinians begin to use Israeli tactics. Roadblocks, security fences around the settlements, demolishing houses without a Palestinian building permit, allowing extreme Muslims to create settlements inside settlements, denying the usage of Holocaust in school bocks, giving halve of the money Palestinian schools get to Jewish schools, allowing extreme groups to make marches inside the settlements etc. How could Israel blame Palestine for behaving as Israel does?
Is Hamas building the new settlements mr. Witty? Blaming Hamas for the settlement policy and expansion is positively said hilarious, negatively said insane. The settlement policy was started before Hamas even existed and all Israeli governments have favoured it.
Surely some Palestinians and others can with relative rational arguments claim that by not allowing the two state solution Israel in the end destroys the Jewish nation when Palestinians get the majority. But it is the Israeli Jews who carry out the occupation and gradual land theft.
Syvänen should we build an illegal settlement near St Peterburg or even in Moscow? Before that we must naturally attend to an intensive course arranged by Israeli settlers. Though I suppose that Putin's Slavic "Palestinians" would not welcome us and the local "PA troops" would kick us out in a millisecond. So we will have to continue our diaspora from our promised lands. But to Kalevala must be fast added that Ukko main god promised us everything west of Ural mountain chain. To keep future options open. :)
Well Syvänen we Finno-Ugrian tribes once "owned" most of European Russia, not only the places on which we now have to "exist" and pushed to by the "bad" Slavic tribes. There still exist quite large Finno-Ugrian tribes in Russia.
Maybe we should "learn" from Israelis and declare that Moscow and St. Petersburg actually belong to us. With the case of St. Petersburg the ownership issue is easy to prove without an ancient religious book. Tsar Peter the Great built it on the swamps inhabited by the Ingrians. With Moscow's ownership we need a bit more creative history interpretation. One theory suggests that the source of the name Moscow is an ancient Finnic language, in which it means “dark” and “turbid”. :)
Israelis must have hired the same PR company which took care of creating the public image for Talebans. So extreme and religiously/ideologically motivated have the latest "announcement" of GOI and different Jewish religious groups have became.
Yes, the Supreme Court ruled, yes– the Palestinians were evicted in accordance with the law and yes, the Jews who moved in there did so legally.
I must wonder the Israeli juridical system which gives the Jew the possibility to make land and property claims to decades old (not those biblical claims) disputed ownership claims, like those in Hebron and East Jerusalem, but not gives the same rights to Palestinians. Why can a Jew claim the ownership to something he owned long before 1948 but the Arabs can’t do the same. The only explanation is that the whole Israeli legal system is profoundly racist.
If the Israeli supreme court opens Jewish pre 48 and 67 ownership cases on the area which is internationally considered as Palestinian area so should the Palestinian cases inside the "Jewish area" be opened. To how many houses could the Israeli Palestinians, not to mention the other Palestinians, move, if the same justifications would be handeled in a non-racist way?