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Total number of comments: 449 (since 2010-05-07 21:27:34)

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  • Aussie media focus on Carr's assertion that Israel lobby had 'direct line' into Prime Minister's office
    • This from the aftermath of the firing of Rudd and installation of Gillard:

      link to middleeastrealitycheck.blogspot.com.au

      Note the quote from that other Jerusalem Prize winner Greg Sheridan - Foreign Editor of the Australian. And this:

      'She wants to be Australia's first female prime minister and she knows that means currying favour with the Jews'." (Australia renews its love affair with Israel, Dan Goldberg, thejc.com, 10/12/09)

      Jews amount to 0.3% of the Australian population. Muslims on the other hand comprise 2.2% of the population and their number is increasing.

  • Australia opposed Palestinian UN bid because foreign policy was 'subcontracted to Jewish donors' -- report
    • Gillard was given her reward for supporting Israel:

      link to jewishnews.net.au

      According to ZCV president Sam Tatarka, Gillard “has demonstrated over her entire political career that she identifies and empathises with the Jewish people and our connection with the land of Israel”.

      “The Zionist Council of Victoria and the Zionist movement of Australia are honoured to be able to demonstrate our gratitude and respect for Ms Gillard’s many years as an unstinting supporter of the Jewish and Zionist cause,” he said.

  • Protest Sunday: The Israeli settler movement is not welcome in New York City!
  • The horror: 'Breaking the Silence' releases women's frightful testimonies of occupation
    • Why do they attack civilians? Here's your answer from Avraham Burg:

      "Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should
      not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centres of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves to Allah in our places of recreation, because their own lives are torture. They spill their own blood in our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites, because they have children and parents at home who are hungry and humiliated."

      But I know you'll be back asking the same question next week or the week after because you're not here to hear the truth.

      Where did the word Palestine originate? It comes from "Philistine" - the name that the ancient Greeks gave to the people of southern coast of Canaan. And what's your problem with that?

  • Kennedy's insistence on right of return prompted Ben-Gurion to rewrite history: They fled 'of their own free will'
    • Yes - if you want to know what's happening in Syria, forget the MSM. Try

      link to moonofalabama.org

      which has been proved right most of the time - unlike the BBC, the Guardian, and of course any of the US newspapers "of record".

    • Thanks pabelmont - not sure what went wrong with my link.

      Erasmus - read to the end:

      "It was only in mid-1963 that the Kennedy administration decided to apply real pressure. But this had to do with the more general policy the U.S. government was pursuing at the time. It was about to embark on delicate and far-reaching negotiations designed to keep both Germany and China non-nuclear, and the last thing Kennedy wanted was for Israel to do anything that might upset the applecart."

    • I'm sure you're aware of another way in which Kennedy pressured Israel in 1963:

      link to sscnet.ucla.edu

  • Glenn Greenwald brings facts and reason to 'Real Time', ruins Bill Maher's night
    • I'm always skeptical about wikipedia as a scholarly source but this page

      link to en.wikipedia.org

      suggests that there is a range of Islamic scholarly opinion about punishment for apostasy including (and I quote) " no punishment at all as long as they do not work against the Muslim society or nation".

      On the other hand the following is a quote from Deuteronomy:

      "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."

  • Stamberg bit her tongue
    • @RJL: Let them negotiate; how many offers by Israel have they refused, even refusing to suggest a counteroffer?

      Don't know that they've ever made a reasonable offer but you might enlighten us. And a reasonable offer would be a state of their own with control of their borders, their airspace, a fair share of the water, and based at the very least on 1967 (if not 1947) borders and Al Quds as its capital. That, given the history, would be a reasonable offer. And there has been a counter-offer on the table from the Arab League for many years.

      When are you hasbarists going to stop telling lies?

  • Video: Israeli settler lecturing Palestinian farmers -- 'You'll all be our slaves, if you're worthy, if you behave well'
    • giladg is not here to speak truth or to learn. giladg is a propagandist. giladg will be back again making exactly the same statements next time no matter how many times you correct them.

      Joseph Goebbels: “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

  • Israeli strike on Syria followed violations of Lebanon's airspace and movement of missile defense system to north
  • Rights of return-- first class and no-class
    • And the rest of the world has the right to boycott it.

    • I don't see the analogy - well to be precise I see your comment as a good argument against the current Israeli policy of immigration. Germany has allowed the Jews who were forced out during the Nazi regime to return - and their descendants. Israel has not allowed the Palestinians who were driven out by the Nakba to return nor their descendants. So what was your point? And what is dubious about their claims? Please elucidate?

  • Israeli reporter admits suppressing images of 'piles of bodies of civilians' when Israel went 'crazy' in Gaza
    • History did not spoil us with power, wealth, nor with broad territories or an enormous community lot, however, it did grant us the uncommon intellectual and moral virtue, and thus it is both a privilege and an obligation to be a "Light Unto the Nations" — David Ben-Gurion.

  • The limits of liberal Zionism: 'NYT' columnist Roger Cohen misrepresents the Nakba and the right of return
  • Holiday greetings from the BDS movement
    • Just said hello to the wonderful people demonstrating for BDS in Rundle Mall in Adelaide, Australia. As they told me, they're in now in their 116th week of protests and have never rated a mention by the local (Murdoch owned) so-called newspaper, "The Advertiser". There was so much news in Adelaide today that the main headline in the Advertiser was the cricket!

  • Veolia withdraws bid for North London waste contract under boycott pressure
    • Thanks mikeo -

      I just loved this from your link to hackneycitizen.co.uk:

      From Councillor Linda Kelly:

      "David, Martin, Jonathan,

      Please refrain from putting any more responses on this site. You are only giving Dobbs, Miranda Molly, Benjamin and the rest a platform.

      Please any intelligent reader of this page will realise what is going on. They will always have to have the last word, so feel free to follow on after I post this."

  • In 'Dissent' debate, Walzer hints that leftists who focus on Israel are anti-Semitic
    • Many Australians would agree with you about "irregular maritime arrivals" (IMA). Please note the name - these are not "refugees". Since this is a concern of yours, I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted but for those less knowledgeable here is an Australian report on the situation from January 2011 which makes clear the difference.

      link to aph.gov.au

      This report sets out the issues clearly, as you will be aware GilGamesh, and is a necessary read for those concerned with the problem. It is not entirely a black and white issue and much of the current debate has been whipped up by the Murdoch Press and other right wing media to cause political embarrassment to the Labor Government, though the latter has not dealt with it well.

      There is one aspect that all sides of the political spectrum are united on; namely, that all should be done to prevent the large number of deaths at sea caused by these attempts to illegally enter Australia by boat.

      As to refugees, Australia continues to welcome them at a higher rate than almost any other country in the world - in 2008 only the US and Canada took more. Here is a recent announcement of a significant increase which, I suspect (though I admit to not having done my homework on this) moves Australia to number two behind the US.

      link to abc.net.au

      Australia takes these refugees, as is the case for all of its immigrants, without concern for the colour of their skin or their religion - many of these refugees will be from Afghanistan and Sri Lankans. But I guess you know all of this, Gilgamesh.

  • Citing growing division among Australian Jews over Israel, cartoonist refuses to apologize for likening Gaza to Nazis' victims
    • Level headed? Nick Dyrenruth?

      link to enpassant.com.au

      Fatheaded maybe! And certainly an uberzionist.

    • "Add to this the fact that Israel’s closest and most powerful ally, the US, is not exactly popular in the ME".

      You talk as if this happened totally by accident. Some nasty people suddenly decided on a whim that they didn't like the US?

      Might not it just be a tiny bit to do with the fact that the US consistently supports a racist regime that is continually stealing land from Palestinians, bombing its neighbors, and ignoring International Law? Might it not be to do with the fact that the US consistently vetoes any UN Security Council resolution that is even the slightest bit critical of Israel? You may not yet have worked this out, but popularity is usually a response to one's behavior.

    • The Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) Radio National Breakfast program this morning had a big item about the mistreatment of Australian exported animals in Israeli abbatoirs. I wish they made a similar fuss about the mistreatment of Palestinians but they speak hardly a word about that.

  • 'We lost Europe,' says Israeli official
  • Palestinians under occupation should demand voting rights (Goldberg's latest variation)
    • @mondonut And here's the rational response to that. "To define an Israeli citizen - at least by birth - you need to define its borders. Please do so! "

      Abbas still in office? Ask Israel and the US.

  • If Hillel rejects nonviolent resistance to the occupation, what does it propose in its place?
    • I realise a little off-topic but this is great news to me as an Australian. And apologies if it has already been posted but haven't seen it.

      Australia will abstain on the Palestine statehood vote - it was going to vote "No"! Gillard has been rolled by the Labor caucus.

      link to smh.com.au

      No doubt the recent Israeli killing spree in Gaza had an effect.

  • How Israelis imagine their future
  • Regurgitating Israeli talking points, Amanpour lectures Meshal that 'int'l agreements' bar right of return
    • How many Jews emigrated to Palestine under the Ottomans? According to this:

      link to en.wikipedia.org

      there were 84,000 Jews and 660,000 non-Jews in 1922, a few years after the Ottoman empire collapsed.

      Sorry I don't possess a prayer book, but my God has given me a piece of velum on which it is written that I have rights in perpetuity to the entirety of New York City.

  • AP's Matt Lee confronts Nuland: 'You're staying silent while people are dying left and right'
  • On the Jewish Israeli street, there's no solution to Palestinian issue but more violence
    • Excuse us for getting angry with you but when you pen inanities like: "I do agree that more needs to be done" it makes me - and I suspect a few others around here - see red. Yes more does need to be done - that's a statement of that is obvious to anyone of the meanest intelligence and humanity! Israel needs a complete rethink. The Zionist agenda - acknowledged by many historical leaders including your hero Rabin (see above) - is to steal all of the land of the Palestinians. Israel needs to let that go. If it wants peace it should either evacuate all of the settlers instead of protecting them from Palestinian responses to their aggression, give back all of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and give the Palestinians the chance of a real state with an army, protected borders, and the right to decide who lives there, or it should give all Palestinians in all of the occupied territories equal rights. It's a choice it will have to make or be forced to make eventually. The only other alternative it really has is ethnic cleansing on a massive scale and since you appear not to be as extreme a Zionist as Gilad Sharon I'm sure you wouldn't want that.

    • Did you read what I posted above about Rabin - incidentally I forgot to attribute so it can go here
      link to alhewar.net?

    • Would that be this Rabin

      Rabin joined the Palmach, a unit of the Jewish underground army in Palestine and was deputy commander of the Palmach in 1947-1948 when the group engaged in ethnically cleansing Palestinians (as Benny Morris documented expulsion of Palestinians in the LOd and Ramle areas were carried out under Rabin’s command). Famous as Israeli defense minister in the late 1980s for ordering troops to “break the bones” of Palestinian demonstrators (mostly children). Rabin stated that “The Oslo “Peace Process” is “A new instrument for reaching traditional [Israeli] objectives” (according to Uri Savir, his chief negotiator, from link to fmep.org ). Henry Kissinger stated “I ask Rabin to make concessions, and he says he can’t because Israel is too weak. So I give him arms, and he says he doesn’t need to make concessions because Israel is strong” (quoted in Findley’s Deliberate Deceptions p.199). Yitzhak Rabin, once said (in the Knesset): “For all its faults, Labor has done more and remains capable of doing more in the future [in expanding Jewish settlements] than Likud with all of its doing. We have never talked about Jerusalem. We have just made a ‘fait accompli.’ It was we who built the suburbs in [the annexed part of] Jerusalem. The Americans didn’t say a word, because we built these suburbs cleverly.”

    • Just replace "Jews" by any other tribe - defined how you like - that has been oppressed - Bahais, Romanies, etc. Should each get there own state and get to choose where to put it - even if that land is occupied by someone else? Should they be allowed to have an immigration policy that is fundamentally tribalist? My own country had a "White Australia" policy for many years but eventually decided that it was racist and now takes people of any ethnicity or religion.

      "Palestinians wouldn’t want to get revenge on the 5 million Jews remaining in the state"

      So why might they want revenge from all you peace-loving and friendly Israelis who have been trying to offer them their own state for so many years?

      And do you think that some of the animosity towards Jews might just be because
      1. Israel calls itself the Jewish State and claims to represent all Jews world wide
      2. It behaves in a brutal and inhuman way towards the people it has displaced.
      3. While doing 2. continues to claim to be the victim.

      Don't you see cause and effect here? Or do you believe that the poor Zionists in Israel were just minding their own business, driving native people off their land, killing those that refused to budge, and the horrible people in the rest of the world took umbrage at this?

    • Israel has been offered 1967 borders and refuzed it - well ignored it. I'm amazed that they would be offered that much. Israel made the choice to continue stealing land - and it will serve it right when it forced to accept the one-state solution. The situation in the West Bank is not getting better - more and more land is being stolen. Will Israel give up East Jerusalem? Will Israel remove settlers?

      Gaza - worst possible timing - who chose that? Did you read the Magnes Zionist article I quoted or do you just skim read like you accuse others of doing?

    • What has this got to do with anything? Why don't you cry for the Palestinians?
      And why did you cry for Rabin - not for the untimely death of a fellow human being but apparently because it gives Israel a bad name. Let me tell you, what Israel is doing in Gaza is giving Israel a much worse name!

    • "It would save Israel money and help vent the frustrations of Gazans who can’t turn their hands to anything other than launching rockets to cope with having Jews next door to their Iranian garrison."

      They can turn their hands to many things - I'm constantly amazed by the resilience of the Palestinians in Gaza in the face of Israeli attempts to destroy them:

      link to electronicintifada.net

      But whenever they do Israel seeks to prevent it.

    • This isn't a struggle of equals. You seem to believe that it's ok not to acknowledge that Israel is the aggressor. Zionists came to this place and stole the land, drove the indigenous people out, and when they didn't go it killed them. And then had the temerity to blame them for it all. As Ben Gurion wrote "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country". Israel created the problem and it has to fix it.

      It's not enough to say "both claim self-defense". Palestinians can do so with some justice, Israelis cannot. Israel never did anything about the blockade of Gaza between Cast Lead and the latest carnage, except to attack boats that tried to break it - and then they claimed some nonsense about international law to justify it. Since when did Israel abide by international law. As Magnes Zionist suggests, what's a few Palestinian lives when it allows Netanyahu to look tough?

      Let's see Israel honor its moral commitment to the people of Palestine - then I'll start to believe peace is possible.

    • The people on this site don't dehumanize Israelis - they do it to themselves!

      Gilad Sharon:

      "We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too. "

      @unverified__b69dj389:
      "it’s been a long time since the situation was better and people were able to meet Palestinians in day-to-day life"

      You erected the wall - what do you expect?

      And don't try the "self-defense" defense! It's garbage and everyone here knows it.

      link to jeremiahhaber.com

    • "presuming that every Israeli is a racist maniac"

      Well maybe not every Israeli but a very large majority of them:

      link to jewishjournal.com

      "I also believe that the civilians of Israel do have the right to live there in the future, as neighbours to a Palestinian state"

      So which "Palestinian State" are you talking about? The one on 1947 borders, or 1948 borders, or 1967 borders, or the bantustans they are currently occupying? Or perhaps on a state that better reflected the ratio of Palestinians to Zionists at the time Israel was created? Will this state be able to defend itself from Israeli aggression? Will it be able to control its own borders? And if not, in what sense is it a state? You're just using words - they don't mean anything!

      "you can’t call for the destruction of Israel and call it peace"

      You are participating in the destruction of a people and then calling for peace. Please!

  • 'Washington Post' prints false narrative of how Gaza escalation started
    • I have to say that the Australian Government Zionist Propaganda Organ called the ABC did surprisingly well this morning. Yesterday they had Mark Regev (ugh!) spouting his usual lies, and here is a transcript of Fran Kelly doing her fearless questioning of him - oh for a Jon Snow!

      link to middleeastrealitycheck.blogspot.com.au

      But this morning they had Mustafa Barghouti on to set the record straight. Fran Kelly tried to trap him into saying that he supported violence by Hamas but he kept repeating that he believed in non-violent responses and that Israel had to bear the responsibility.

  • Israel rejects truce and escalates fighting in Gaza with assassination of Hamas leader; 10 killed, 90 wounded in Israeli attacks
    • The word "vicious" coming from an apologist for Israel's current activities has a poignant irony. I must say I can't raise much empathy for poor Hophmi and Dimadok because someone "twisted their names" while Israel is raising mayhem in Gaza.

  • 7 Palestinians, including 3 children, killed and 52 injured as Israeli attack on Gaza continues
  • Comeuppance for Netanyahu? No, he might run against Obama-- and increase daylight between countries
    • Hi pabelmont

      I posted earlier but it disappeared - maybe the moderators didn't understand the allusion - either in your comment or my response.

      What I said was:

      "Spoken like a mathematician - and a Jewish one at that."

      If the moderators don't like this can they tell me why? Perhaps flippant comments are no longer allowed - beware mooser!

  • Wasserman Schultz brags on Obama's continuity with Bush policies in ME
    • The British stance is strange and contradictory. On the one hand we have the rejection described by mikerol, and on the other Britain has agreed to station Typhoons (the "eurofighter") in the Gulf to support US and French materiel and personnel already there:

      link to rt.com

      And on the third hand (who's counting), this deployment seems to be connected to sales of said fighters to Gulf States:

      link to bbc.co.uk

      But of course just to make things ok "he Cam" is going to raise human rights issues.
      Maybe its not so contradictory after all.

  • BDS is a necessary, ethical response to a brutal occupation worsened by 20 years of Oslo
    • Let's see. Iran has no nuclear weapons, allows inspections, is a signatory to NPT, and has declared that it has no intention of obtaining them. The West has imposed sanctions on Iran because apparently it doesn't believe Iran. Israel has nuclear weapons, has done so by stealing technology and spying, has not signed NPT, does not allow inspections of Dimona, and has to a large extent remained silence and lied about its possession of such weapons. And no sanctions on Israel proper. Now that's hypocrisy, jon.

  • Secret Israel NIE warns of irreversibility of Israeli colonization
  • Exile and the Prophetic: Chomsky’s absent ‘Jewish’
    • I tried to edit but it didn't work. One other very important difference between Israel and Australia is that Australia is an avowedly multicultural country that accepts immigrants of all ethnicities and religions. In recent years, large numbers of (legal) immigrants have come from China, the Indian subcontinent, and East Africa. These immigrants are helped to settle in Australia, and to become a part of the varied and culturally rich society of this country.

    • As an Australian, I accept and acknowledge that the settlers there did some pretty awful things to the natives. There are many ways this differs from the Israeli situation though.

      First and foremost, Israel happened in the second half of the 20th century when, in the rest of the world, overt colonialism was retreating, and Australian attitudes to its Aboriginal population were shifting towards a more caring position.

      Secondly, when the European settlers arrived, Aborigines were, by and large, a nomadic/hunter-gatherer society with almost no fixed infrastructure, very unlike most of Palestine when Israel was established.

      Thirdly, Australia has acknowledged - too late and perhaps too little - its acts against Aborigines. It has tried - not always successfully - to compensate them for its previous actions. Even the "stolen generation" issue was a misguided attempt to assimilate Aborigines into the culture of the settlers (how very different from Israel) - it would be like Israel trying to convert Palestinians - equally stupid but in some senses laudable. Australia puts significant resources into helping Aboriginal communities that wish to stay separate, and at least at a legal level, prohibits any discrimination against them. Perhaps these prohibitions don't always work perfectly, especially outside of the urban areas, but they are there. Indeed in some areas of policy there is discrimination in favour of Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders. Major official gatherings (government or public bodies for instance) usually commence with an acknowledgement that they are taking place on traditional Aboriginal land. While we can never truly compensate the Aboriginal population of Australia for what was done to them, there is no political party in Australia that could adopt a platform of discrimination against them and receive a significant vote. So if Israel adopted similar policies towards its Palestinian population (both inside the green line and outside it), I'd be pretty happy about it.

      Perhaps a more pertinent example would be of the Maori in New Zealand. They had a more settled society and indeed fought a war against the settlers resulting in the Treaty of Waitangi:

      link to en.wikipedia.org

      Again the Maori suffered significantly from the settlement of the Europeans, but today they play a very significant role in NZ society. While in socio-economic terms their situation is not perfect, the NZ government has programs in place to change that. What about it, Israel?

  • Changes to the Mondoweiss comment policy
    • But Freddy V you read this site regularly. There are always newcomers and when the ziotrolls bring up their distorted view of history and it is refuted by Hostage and others, the newcomers learn. That's part of the power of this site. Don't lose it!

      Our arguments about today in themselves are not going to change anything. Education of the community might.

    • Page: 4
    • @mooser "is a whole lot different than cherry-picking a line out of the Talmud, and making the assumption that there is a common thread of Jewish motivations and behavior and dissemination which is different from the rest of humanity’s"

      But we (especially you) are not stupid, mooser. We know that this kind of argument is fallacious. When one of the ziotrolls argues in similar vein about all Muslims or all Christians we treat it (especially you) with the contempt it deserves. If our potential debates cannot stand up to scrutiny by the world they're not worth the effort. There seems to me to suggest an undercurrent of Jewish exceptionalism that many on this site have rightly railed against.

      One of the ziotrolls here (can't recall which now) once said "God gave us the land" as justification of the choice of Palestine for Zionist settlement while, as we know, many of the early Zionists - and indeed more recent ones - were secular. I can imagine that the conversation might naturally under those circumstances have drifted off into a discussion of Jewish identity. Is that allowed under the new rules?

      Christian support in the US for the Israeli regime it to a large extent biblical in origin. Jewish history and culture pervade the debate. Of course we shouldn't pillory a whole group however it is defined (we'd need lots of pillories) for the actions and statements of a few. We shouldn't use selective quotes from religious works of any kind as justification for abuse of members of that religion but when it happens, we rely on you mooser to shoot them down! And that's much better than censorship!

      This site has an educational role - by opening up these and all other issues we fulfil that role. Recall: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

    • I agree entirely with Krauss, but the concept of a board of moderators that discusses how the rules apply to each comment is an anathema. That discussion should happen HERE!

    • Agreed sean. This is a worrying move to my mind and one that might force me to seek to read serious debate of the I/P situation elsewhere. It's a pity because I have come to regard this as the best site around.

      Incidentally I tried to post a comment along these lines earlier which disappeared. It may have been censored of course - who knows under the new regime. I'll paraphrase. So the use of Jewish history (real or not) to justify the current state of Israel and its policies will be allowed perhaps, whereas anyone who attempts to refute them with facts will be censored? Will the ziotrolls who quote the Koran to justify their islamophobia also be censored? I imagine that many muslims find that kind of behavior hurtful too.

      As a non-Jew I find the fact that this site is populated to a large extent by Jews one of its more attractive features - I get to understand the situation from a Jewish perspective - from both the pro and anti-Zionist side. Most of the posts here are by people who put their humanity ahead of their religion/culture. But if Jewish history and Jewish (only Jewish?) culture are somehow to be off-limits - or at least negative comments on such - then the debate will become facile.

      In my crazier moments (maybe that's all of the time) I would like to put the repeated denial of history (recent and ancient) by the ziotrolls off-limits too, but the intelligent refutation of their lies is almost always informative to me and to newer readers. The same would seem to me to apply to Jewish culture. There are enough smart people here to counter the trolls of all kinds and surely the debate itself informs us. It is pretty easy to tell the truth-seekers here from the mischief makers. Or are you saying that Jewish culture and history cannot stand scrutiny?

      The earlier nakba/holocaust denial rule was relatively clearcut and I guess not hard to police. This new rule seems much more problematic.

  • Most Israelis say, it's apartheid. Not that there's anything wrong with that!
    • Why not instead compare with your home country Mayhem? Why choose Malaysia?

      This is hasbara 101. You could compare with other countries in the world that are racist, but Israel pretends that it is "the only democracy in the Middle East" and that it has western values. Interesting that you should choose Malaysia. In this case it is the descendants of the immigrants who are discriminated against not the native population. That's not an excuse for Malaysia's behaviour btw.

  • When it’s quiet in Jerusalem the settler security cameras are still rolling
    • Where the Ten Commandments came from is not clear but almost certainly from an earlier form, possibly of Egyptian (ie Book of the Dead) or Hittite origin. Guess the Jewish scriptures were partly borrowed too.

      I'm getting rather tired of doing your homework for you giladg - you can do the googling this time.

  • Sold-out Russell Tribunal on Palestine wraps up in New York
    • Didn't you say giladg: "They can do this without having to give up on what they see as their rights."? And now you are saying that they should not have the right to defend themselves? Which is it to be?

    • If it means nothing why do you spend all of this time composing a bucket of vitriol about it?

    • Demilitarized West Bank? And will Israel then leave it?

    • @giladg: The Palestinians worked closely and coordinated with the invading countries in 1948.

      You mean that the invading army that was trying to stem their ethnic cleansing by the Zionists. This argument has already been rehearsed here many times giladg - go and learn some history!

      @giladg: And the wars continued and in 1967 when Israel moved onto the West Bank, the West Bank was controlled by Jordan, who had declared war on Israel and lost.

      Israel began the 1967 war by attacking the Egyptian Air Force.

      I won't waste my time on your other falsehoods - they have been repudiated many times on this site. You have disastrously failed Colin's challenge to write one hundred straight words in defense of Israel without lying.

    • @giladg: They need to cut from their Arab and Muslim brothers

      Why? In my country (Australia) we don't ask that Chinese cut themselves off from their family and friends in China. More pertinently we don't ask that Aborigines cut themselves off from those in PNG and elsewhere who are closest in ethnicity. We don't ask that Muslims here cut themselves off from their fellows in other countries. Why is this necessary in Israel?

      @giladg: and accept that Jews have a long history and rights in the region.

      Have they said that they don't - citation please. And be more precise - which rights? "Rights" is too vague - I could reasonably demand the right to pick the apples on my own tree, but not on my neighbour's.

      @giladg: They can do this without having to give up on what they see as their rights.

      Like the right to live on their historic land? Like the right to remain on good terms with "their Arab and Muslim brothers"?

      @giladg: They don’t have a right to sovereignty over the holiest site for Jews and the third holiest site for Muslims, the Temple Mount.

      You've just said that they "can do this without giving up on what they see as their rights". Now you're changing your position.

      @giladg: As they, the Palestinians, have never controlled Jerusalem in all of history,

      That is a specious argument. Jerusalem has a somewhat chequered history having been conquered more times than any other city. When did Jews last control it prior to the 20th century and how long for? What other powers have controlled it for long periods of time? Do the descendants of the Romans have rights over Jerusalem?

      @giladg: the Palestinians need to climb down the tree of demanding that Jerusalem be divided and that the holy sites be given to them.

      But you've already said that they "can do this without giving up on what they see as their rights". Why should those that live there not control East Jerusalem? Reasons not pronouncements.

      @giladg: Jews have rights here and those rights have been abused and ignored.

      What rights? Be more precise.

    • You seem to care enough to spend time posting here, hophmi.

    • Answer this question, giladg: what do the Palestinians have to do for you to be satisfied?

  • See how Israeli colonies killed the two state solution
    • @giladg When did Britain, France or China veto a resolution on Israel at UNSC? As far as I can see China has never vetoed a decision on anything involving Israel at UNSC.

      link to globalpolicy.org

      The only time the UK and France were involved in a veto about Israel was during the Suez War in 1956 which they waged alongside Israel and against Egypt. They vetoed a resolution calling for a cessation of hostilities.

      The USSR as it was then vetoed a few times - no more than 5 - but none since 1966. On the other hand the US has vetoed resolutions on Israel (always favouring Israel) 14 times since 1985.

      Can I suggest that you do some homework before making pronouncements on this blog?

  • 'Savage' NY subway ads get a make-over-- revealing their true character
    • I think what Colin is getting at is the death rate of middle level officers in trench warfare would have been relatively high - they were in the trenches with their men. On the other hand I didn't see high level officers such as Douglas Haig and his cronies doing much dying! From Wikipedia:

      Paul Fussell, a literary historian in The Great War and Modern Memory, writes that "although one doesn't want to be too hard on Haig ... who has been well calumniated already ... it must be said that it now appears was that one thing the war was testing was the usefulness of the earnest Scottish character in a situation demanding the military equivalent of wit and invention. Haig had none. He was stubborn, self-righteous, inflexible, intolerant—especially of the French—and quite humourless ... Indeed, one powerful legacy of Haig's performance is the conviction among the imaginative and intelligent today of the unredeemable defectiveness of all civil and military leaders. Haig could be said to have established the paradigm."

      There may be something in the penultimate sentence here, though I have more respect for military leaders than I do for political ones.

    • Off topic, I know, but ...

      David Starret was batman to Lieut Col Percy Crozier of the West Ulster Division of the 9th Royal Irish Rifles.

      Here's his description of the first day of the Battle of the Somme (link to irishtimes.com)

      "inferno of screaming shells and machine-gun bullets. Crouching, we slowly moved across No Man's Land. The colonel stood giving last orders to his company commanders, and I beside him. Bullets cutting up the ground at his feet he watched the advance through his glasses. Then he went off the deep end and I danced everywhere at his rear. Something had gone wrong. When the fumes lifted we saw what it was - a couple of battalions wiped out. Masses of dead and dying instead of ranks moving steadily forward."

      Oh what a lovely war!

    • It's a great quotation seafoid - particularly the final sentence - but it is by Private David Starret of the 9th Royal Irish Rifles. The one by Terence Poulter - also at the Island of Ireland Peace Park - is:

      "Hostilities will cease at 11.00am on the 11th day of the 11th month. After that time all firing will cease. This was joyous news. Approaching eleven o'clock in our sector you could have heard a pin drop. When eleven o'clock came there were loud cheers. The war was over as far as we were concerned."

      The war to end all wars!

  • Ninny Middleton doesn't understand the job description
    • Two comments:

      1. From link to 4information.com
      'Soon after he capitulated to the French at Fort Necessity, in the spring of 1754, George Washington, then twenty-two years old, wrote a letter to his younger brother, John Augustine, in which he said: “I have heard the bullets whistle; and, believe me, there is something charming in the sound.” This letter somehow found its way to London, where it was printed with appropriate comments by Horace Walpole. When it came to the attention of George II the hero of Dettingen is said to have observed: “He has not heard many of them or he would not think them very charming.”'

      George II was the last British king to lead an army in battle. The world would be a better place if political leaders, be they monarchs or presidents, were still required to lead their armies into battle.

      2. A few years ago Australia held a referendum on whether to replace the Queen (that is, the Queen of Australia who happens also to be the Queen of the UK) by a president. The country was offered by the then government (led by a Royalist Prime Minister) a president to be chosen by parliament. The people of Australia voted - for whatever reasons - against this proposal. If Australia were at some time to move to a republic, I doubt very much whether anything approaching the US model would be adopted. Personally I'd favour the Irish model.

  • Friedman's mirror
    • @hophmi "Friedman worked in the Middle East for years and years as a journalist"

      So did Ethan Bronner and shares the same level of credibility.

      What more evidence would you need that MEMRI is biased than it's run by a center-right Israeli? Seems like a slam dunk to me. I tend to distrust sources when I find that they consistently lie - not surprisingly - anyone who continues to trust them should be seeing a psychiatrist.

      On December 1, 2002, Friedman wrote (link to nytexaminer.com) that

      "... Saddam Hussein was an expert at hiding his war toys and, having had four years without inspections, had probably buried everything good under mosques or cemeteries. That means the only way we can possibly uncover anything important in Iraq is if an Iraqi official or scientist – a Saddam insider – tells the U.N. where it’s hidden…. Is there just one Iraqi scientist or official who wants to see the freedom of his country so badly that he is ready to cooperate with the U.N. by submitting to an interview and exposing the regime’s hidden weapons?"

      That should have marked the end of Friedman. Not one word of his should have been published. So much for his Middle East expertise.

  • Stoking fear of 'genocide,' an academic pushes Israel to war
    • You talk about Emory University, Colin, but I can't find a connection of Gregory Stanton to that organization. He does appear to have affiliations with Mary Washington University and with George Mason University. Whatever, if his posts here are anything to go by, he seems to be a little lacking in the kind of intellectual objectivity one would expect of an academic at either of those two organizations. I hope he is not citing the posts as a publication.

  • Confronting anti-semitic discourses head on: How to avoid self-silencing
  • A legacy of two martyrs
    • The trouble with this kind of hasbara is that you're always going to find you lose on the numbers game. Of course the real losers are the people who are killed and their families - on both sides.

      From wikipedia - apologies for not going to more authoritative reports but there are links there to the original sources.

      "According to the Defence of Children International (DCI),[18] of the "595 children killed [29 September 2000 to 30 June 2004], 383, or 64.4%, died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, during assassination attempts, or when Israeli soldiers opened fire randomly" and "212 children, or 35.6%, died as a result of injuries sustained during clashes with Israeli military forces"."

  • Corrie verdict energizes worldwide movement to challenge Israeli impunity
    • So what does this say about secular Jews? Can - according to the Israel Supreme Court - a Jew who becomes an atheist be called a Jew?

  • Two-stater says the reality has shifted to one apartheid state
    • I agree justicewillprevail. That Britain, having been pressured by the Zionists into allowing them to have a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine -

      link to zionismspring2010.wikispaces.com

      - should now take the displaced Palestinians seems to involve a twisted logic. The correct response would be that Britain should be required to take the Zionists. That would be suitable punishment!

  • 'After Zionism' at the Frontline Club
    • As you remark, Tim Llewellyn is no longer working for the BBC, Oleg, so what's your point?

      Neither is its former Director-General Mark Thomson who is enough of a Zionist to be appointed Chief Executive of NYT. Perhaps we are going to see a less pro-Israel BBC.

  • A modest lexicographic proposal
  • Israeli Settler: 'If I see her coming, no matter what age she is 3, 4, 7, I'll f*ck her over'. Israeli Soldier: 'No problem'
  • It's apartheid, says Jeffrey Goldberg
    • And let the Palestinians from the West Bank just try and stay in Israel after visiting the beaches - right Dimadok? But the settlers can stay in the West Bank.

  • We are 'unwilling for an Arab to date a girl from among our people': Israeli org uses Zion Square lynching to push racist agenda
  • Israel's secret Iran meeting between security officials and Rabbi who wants to 'annihilate' Arabs
    • I think Colin that we need a new term on this site since antisemitic has become so overused as to become boring. You can be the first to be called anti-antipodean - by an antipodean!

  • My correspondence with NYT's Rudoren
    • Are you saying that any American journalists who speak both Hebrew and Arabic don't agree with your view of the world? Interesting observation Oleg.

  • A Lynching in Jerusalem: Anatomy of Jewish racism
  • My grandfather sparked my interest in debate over Zionism
    • The former General Secretary of the Labour Party in Britain Morgan Phillips said, sometime in the 1950s, "Socialism in Britain owed more to Methodism than to Marx". Indeed Labour was strongly influenced by the non-conformist movement in the UK. Now Labour describes itself as a "social democratic" party and tends to eschew the term "socialism".

  • 'NYT' publishes op-ed saying there are 'too many Palestinians and Arabs' in Israel
    • Go and google, Rabbi Baruch Kaplan Hebron 1929, Hoppy, and read about the Palestinians who protected the Jews there and the Zionist provocation.

    • From Hostage a week or so ago on this site:

      In Kletter v Dulles, the Court ruled that in 1932 the Executive branch of the US government had recognized Palestine as a separate foreign state in its treaties of commerce.

      There was a long discussion of this issue. Please OlegR keep up! And don't argue with Hostage - he'll wipe the floor with you!

    • Good for the BBC. NYT policy on Middle East reporting won't change!

    • Didn't these secular Jews base their case for stealing Palestine on some religious book?

    • Phil, Hophmi posts something that is full of demonstrably false Zionist myths " the "Arabs have been attacking Israel since its foundation" etc. and all you do is give it credibility by saying "two wrongs don't make a right". Bulls**t. The situations of the Palestinians on their own land and the Israelis on land stolen from the Palestinians are not equivalent!

    • And who is preventing peace hoppy? Here's a piece (another kind) I cited here a couple of days ago, which undoubtedly you didn't read.

      link to fair.org

      Hophmi:" Israelis are worried, and rightfully so, about being ruled by Arabs"
      If Israelis didn't want to be ruled by Arabs (or rather Palestinians) they should not have moved to Palestine. The blacks in Alabama had no choice. The Zionists did.
      How about saying "Israelis are worried about being ruled by natives of their own country" then at least we see the moral vacuum that you inhabit.

      Hophmi:"Arabs have been attacking Israel since before its founding, and have made no bones about wanting to drive the Jews out of the Middle East."

      No the Jews lived in the Middle East for millenia in relative peace with Arabs. It was the colonization of Palestine by Zionists that precipitated the current conflict.

      The rest of your argument is just as specious - as usual - except for the final sentence which I totally agree with.

  • Israeli and Egyptian militaries jointly operating in the Sinai to arrest migrants
    • To reinforce Shingo's point, as has been pointed out before on Mondoweiss but bears repeating, the Western obsession with Iranian nuclear weapons goes back a long time and they're always imminent.

      link to csmonitor.com

      It seems that the story of the little boy crying wolf just doesn't apply in this case.

    • Seems like Annie's offline but I'll oblige from link to fair.org

      "To understand what actually happened at Camp David, it's necessary to know that for many years the PLO has officially called for a two-state solution in which Israel would keep the 78 percent of the Palestine Mandate (as Britain's protectorate was called) that it has controlled since 1948, and a Palestinian state would be formed on the remaining 22 percent that Israel has occupied since the 1967 war (the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem). Israel would withdraw completely from those lands, return to the pre-1967 borders and a resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 would be negotiated between the two sides. Then, in exchange, the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel (PLO Declaration, 12/7/88; PLO Negotiations Department). "

      "Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01). "

      "The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump. "

      Thanks for the opportunity.

  • Barak to US: Be afraid, be very afraid of 'the sword at our throat'
  • The world according to Sheldon Adelson
    • From link to alethonews.wordpress.com

      "Rochlin, a politically active parent and child of conservative Jewish parents, in 1996 coauthored an open letter to the Israeli government, “Message from the original Jewish community of Hebron: Evacuate settlers,” which stated, “[Hebronite settlers] are alien to the culture and way of life of the Hebron Jews, who in the course of generations created a heritage of peace between peoples and understanding between faiths.” She sees evidence of this tradition in the fact that Muslim neighbors intervened to save her family and over 400 more when the Jewish community was attacked in 1929. Who exactly did the killing, and from where, is uncertain—but there is surprisingly little disagreement over the 19+ Palestinian families that sheltered and defended Jews. Although some Palestinian community members invited their neighbors to stay or return, by 1936 the British Mandate had relocated the remaining Jews to Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and elsewhere."

      "Curiously, although the Israeli Jews’ narratives tell radically different stories, many area Palestinians also know a great deal about the pogrom and mourn the loss of friends and neighbors. For Muhammad, head of the Abu Aisha family who live in the famed ‘caged house’ on Tel Rumeida, where their home is surrounded by settlement homes, it is a matter of family pride that his father is named among the Palestinians to save Jewish residents. Nonetheless, the Abu Aisha family struggles with daily harassment at the hands of settlers, who occupy land all around the home. Hajj Yussef, one of the few surviving Palestinians who responded in 1929, talks about “our Palestinian Jews,” who dressed and spoke like non-Jewish neighbors. To Yussef, like the children of his refugee neighbors, the obstacle to peace in Hebron lies not in difference but attitude and actions: “I have no problem living with the Jews, like we lived many years ago. But today’s settlers are not Palestinian Jews, they came here from abroad. And I have a problem if the Jews live in my country as occupiers and settlers.”"

  • Trapped
    • Zionists used to say that they wanted peace but the Palestinians only wanted violence, and they practised the opposite. Eventually we all learned the truth about that. Now they are saying they want a two state solution and they practise the opposite. So hophmi, please tell us how it is going to happen? Tell us how you are going to get, what is it now, 350000 settlers to leave Palestinian land. It was hard enough remove the 8500 settlers from that other small piece of Palestinian land in Gaza. As far as I can gather that resulted in around $1.25B being paid in compensation. So on that scale the cost of a resettlement out of the West Bank would be over $50B, or after compensating for inflation over $65B; that's around 25% of Israel's GDP. Who will pay? Don't answer, I think I know.

  • Gore Vidal: In memoriam
    • With a forename of "Luther" I doubt it. But his partner, Howard Austin, was.

      Great obituary!

  • New round of Iran sanctions pressures Obama to move closer to Israel's 'red line'
    • 80% of Conservative MPs in Britain belong to Conservative Friends of Israel, as do a significant proportion of Labour MPs - I don't have a figure for the Labour Party. I agree BIoC, this is about doing everything in their power to prevent liberation of Palestine. They feign support for a two-state solution but they will not lift a finger to help make it happen against the wishes of the Israeli government.

  • Jon Stewart on Romney's painfully oblivious racism against Palestinians
  • Romney's racist bundler: J. Philip Rosen believes Palestinian society is 'pathological'
    • @elephantine - totally in agreement! Great post!

    • Colin: So under item (3) the US attacked a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 (Iraq) and another that offered to give up bin Laden if the US provided evidence that he was in fact the perpetrator:

      link to rte.ie

      It did nothing about the country that was the home of most of the people claimed to have committed the crimes - and note this:

      link to nytimes.com

      Interesting response to 9/11. Rational? I don't think so.

      BTW the "strong counterterrorism cooperation" between the US and Saudi Arabia discussed in my second link seems to include fostering terrorism in Syria.

      1984 arrived a little late!

  • Romney visits Western Wall, ignores question, Does Israel have a right to annex West Bank
    • @MRW: Males while they are on a mission are called elders. Also the title is used for someone very senior in the LDS Church. On the other hand there are many bishops.

      link to lds.about.com

    • England allows muslim immigrants. And Israel?

    • Oh Fred, please don't keep showing your ignorance! It doesn't help your arguments one bit - and your minders might reduce your pay. Ellen was making the point that both of these "states" existed as separate self-ruling entities but have subsequently disappeared having been absorbed into the larger state of Romania. One might make the same statement about Moldavia or perhaps Bavaria or Prussia. Did they have a right to exist? Statehood is a fluid concept - they come and go and none have a right to keep on existing. Especially if they behave like Israel.

      I would say that Palestinians would rather like the country that was stolen from them back! That seems to me to be a perfectly rational position to take.

  • Stand With Us to run counter-ads to maps showing loss of Palestinian land
  • After court victory in Australia, Palestine solidarity activists return to protesting
    • Here's a link to a story in an online newspaper run by a consortium of universities in Australia. It explains the legal issues:

      link to theconversation.edu.au

    • I'm afraid and ashamed that my country is one of the most pro-Israel countries in the world - just look at our performance at the UN. It is essentially impossible for a politician to voice support for the Palestinian cause given the flavour of the media here as the Green Party in NSW recently discovered. Even the ABC (Australian Government funded broadcaster) seems to be imbued with Zionist tendencies - a recent program interviewed a former US ambassador to Israel and no-one else about Syria for instance.

      Mercifully, our legal system is still relatively independent. And we are changing as the ethno-religious profile of the immigrants has an effect.

  • One apartheid state, with liberty and justice for Jews only
    • lobewyper: "The Israelis are very fearful of further terrorist/rocket attacks".

      It is clear that Israel provokes rocket attacks in order to justify to their US audience visiting further violence on the Palestinians - witness Cast Lead among many. The game is about "persuading" the Palestinians to leave. So in what sense do they fear these attacks?

    • Where are the Palestinian leaders? Most of them have either been killed or locked up by Israel.

  • Adelson-backed ad campaign features Jewish Dem claiming Netanyahu represents 'all' Jews
    • I think we're in agreement.

    • I regard historic Palestine as including Israel.

    • It's true that some survivors could chose the US or UK (or I would add Australia) but, as has been documented here several times, Zionists in all of those countries were doing their best to block Jewish immigration from post-war Europe, so as to make Israel the only choice.

    • By and large the "mess" of countries around Israel are the result of US, UK, France, and Israeli meddling. You cannot keep supporting and defending friendly oppressive regimes and then declare it their fault that their countries are in a mess. Why is Lebanon a mess? Because every few years Israel gets a pass to attack it. Why is Egypt a mess - surely nothing to do with the fact that the US and Israel supported Mubarak for many years? Why is Iraq a mess? Don't answer, we know. And what about Mossadegh in Iran. Yes to a significant extent I can blame the mess of countries "they've created" on Zionism and its supporters in the West. We - the West - created those countries in their present form and we in the West have supported the Zionists in stirring up problems in the Middle East. We have supported Israeli aggression against several of these countries and we have been encouraged to fight against others by Israel. The people of the Middle East would be just as capable of having functioning democracies as any other country if we stopped interfering in ways that prevent it happening and started doing something to encourage such a development with aid for education instead of guns. If the Zionists had indeed gone to the Middle East to "repair the world" in the early part of the 20th Century, they could have been a force for that change at the end of the Ottoman Empire. Instead they consorted with their UK and US supporters to steal land to construct their little uber-nationalist racist state at no matter what cost to anyone else around.

      Also I am getting pretty angry about those people who say things like "I may want Israel to leave the WB ASAP". To use the word scrawled across the maps of Israel/Palestine at the Chappaqua Station, "Bullshit!" When you say things like that, it behooves you to tell us how it's going to happen. The words are just too easy. It's like saying "I want the Earth to be flat". Impossible wishes are just a cop-out.

    • I don't understand your point here. This is about non-Jewish Palestinians who had been ethnically cleansed from Palestine by the Zionists. I don't think any Jews were ethnically cleansed from historical Palestine.

    • This was a question about Terry's grandfather.

    • He wasn't part of Unit 131 was he?

    • Hamas rockets are almost always a feeble attempt at retaliation for Israeli rockets fired from aircraft at Gaza or other acts of violence by the IDF. These Israeli rockets come from Israel - not from settlers in the Occupied Territories. Israel has no agenda to leave those Territories - if it had it would not be permitting further settlement on almost a daily basis.

      Jordan occupied the West Bank from 1948 to 1967. This was not regarded as acceptable to other Arab countries but was supported by the UK. Jordan established no settlements there as far as I am aware.

    • Israel has been menaced by its neighbors. I'd be interested to know when you think that was. I'd also be interested to know how many times you think Israel has attacked its neighbors. And also how many times do you think the territory of Israel been attacked?

    • Some did leave because of persecution - but mainly after Israel had been formed and taken its stance against the native population. Many left because of false flag operations by the Israelis - google the Lavon affair. And many left because they were paid to do so by Israel.

    • We're truly sorry that your mind is closed to the truth and wish you well.

  • Syria watch
    • And where does the US have permanent bases - I think in 180 countries around the world - what does that prove? Do you know about the US's military aid to various unsavoury regimes across the world? Do you know how many weapons from the US have found their way into Syria in the hands of the terrorists - supplied by US client regimes such as Saudi Arabia?

      You should read MoA's latest for an interesting article on how NYT has now decided that Al Qaeda operatives are not "terrorists" but "insurgents". I wonder if Americans are taking notice - Al Qaeda rehabilitated!

    • I prefer what Russia is saying at the UN - let's negotiate - to Hilary's "regime change". What about you? I read Al Jazeera (Sunni) and Al Akhbar - not sure which side of the divide that is on - and I make my own judgements, don't you? But in the case of the Guardian, it regularly comes out with "look at the atrocities the Assad regime has done" before having to back down when the facts trickle out. Why should I believe MoA or rt.com any less than I believe the NYT? The latter has a track record!

    • The UK cheerleader for the US agenda for Syria (the Guardian) has a headline now:

      "Bio weapons will be used if Syria attacked, ministry warns"

      The BBC's headline for the same news is:

      "Syria 'will not use' chemical weapons on its own people"

      Says it all really. I'm with Annie - the only sites that appear to be consistently not US propaganda organs on Syria are MoA and rt.com.

  • NY Times 'confirms' Hezbollah/Iran connection to Bulgaria attack by quoting unnamed American 'officials'
    • Maybe Greenwald can influence the Guardian's reporting of Syria. It has consistently, immediately, and without question, parroted the propaganda of the "activists" until proved wrong when it has grudgingly changed its story. At one point a commenter said "I don't believe a f**k*ng thing the Guardian says about Syria" and received 10 times as many likes as any other comment.

  • Netanyahu adopts Facebook strategy to claim sovereignty over Jerusalem for the Olympics
    • Relative to public relations efforts by Israel and its supporters this is pretty impressive. Most of the Western media are rabidly pro-Israel, refusing to report its atrocities and consistently backing it against any opposition. And yet still it manages to be third worst. Israel should ask for its money back.

    • Jerusalem is not recognized internationally as belonging to Israel. Israel can keep saying that Jerusalem is its capital and the rest of the world can keep saying that it isn't.

    • And which parts of the West Bank would be covered by that treaty with Jordan?

    • Yes it is allowed to define its capital if that capital is on land that is internationally recognized as belonging to that country.

  • What if an American politician came out for preserving a Christian majority?
    • Not quite sure what you're saying Fred. When you say "The only question is will Israel ..." do you include the West Bank and Gaza or not?

      Otherwise your post appears remarkably Orwellian "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."

    • What about the Zoroastrians or the Jains or the Bahais? I think each of them should have a country of their own. And the Taoists? There are at least 20 million of them and no country of their own. And the Sikhs at 30 million but no country of their own. Why not carve out a piece of the US and give it to the Sikhs? In fact, why not Idaho - it's practically empty? Let's give the Sikhs Idaho - they can build a Golden Temple in Moscow.

  • The crisis of Jewish identity
  • The (what about) China syndrome
  • NY ads depicting Palestinian dispossession are termed anti-Semitic by 'Jewish community'
    • It is well established that at least post-war Zionist groups in Australia, US and UK were doing their best to limit Jewish immigration to those countries. Since you read this blog regularly, Hound, and are not being disingenuous, I'll assume know this and you don't mean that period when you talk about those countries not opening "their doors to us". Let's consider Germany alone since before 1939 Poland was not occupied by the Nazis. In 1933 the number of Jews in Germany was almost exactly 500,000.

      link to ushmm.org

      According to this article around 280000 had left Germany by September 1939, plus nearly 120000 from Austria.

      That the Zionists did their best to sabotage the Evian conference in 1939 insofar as it was not concerned with emigration of Jews only to Israel is well documented. If that conference had been successful, more Jews would have been saved.

      Here is what Landauer wrote to Wise.

      "I am writing this letter to you at the request of Dr. Weizmann, as we are very much concerned in case the issue is presented at the (Evian) Conference in a manner which may harm the work for Palestine. Even if the Conference will not place countries other than Palestine in the front for Jewish immigration, there will certainly be public appeals, which will tend to overshadow the importance of Palestine. (…) We feel all the more concern as it may bind Jewish organisations to collect large sums of money for assisting Jewish refugees, and these collections are likely to interfere with our own campaigns."

      No-one here would let the Allies off the hook for their inaction regarding the Holocaust. Are you happy to let the Zionists "off the hook"?

    • Here's some interesting reading which looks pretty credible. I and others have posted this several times on this blog. I only wish some Zionists would read it!

      link to desip.igc.org

    • link to redress.cc

      Just read it - makes interesting reading. Should be required for all of the hasbarists on this site.

    • "It's been a long time since I've felt so small, uncomfortable and red-faced as during the show of whining and whimpering organized by Israel at The Hague. ... The Palestinians are fighting occupation and we want the world to stand by us as we pay the price for that occupation. Sooner or later, the fence will fall, just like the Berlin Wall. ... Exploiting bereavement and wallowing in self-pity is fitting for soap operas - not for the strongest country in the Middle East." (Yoel Marcus, 27 February 2004)

      Btw PZ that's how to quote someone!

    • I was being facetious - what else can you do in face of this kind of delusion? I tend to agree with you Colin, but I'm sure we'd have a fight on our hands. Sorry - replied in wrong place - this is to Nazism v. Zionism statement.

    • But Transjordan was part of the "Land that God had given to the House of Jabotinsky". It was only in the late 1950s - I'm reading Wikipedia here because I'm too lazy to find a more authoritative source - that the Revisionist Zionists gave up on that idea.

    • Can't stop myself.

      "if a document drawn up to protect the civilian population from the horrors of Nazi occupation, in which Jews were the first victims, can be applied to the letter to the reality of the Middle East today"

      I'm a little confused by your logic. Are you talking about Resolution 242 when you say "document" here? Am I being stupid or was it not adopted on 22 November 1967. And if so isn't that 22 years and 198 days after the end of WWII - well the end of hostilities in Europe to be precise but I guess that marks the end of the Nazi regime. Please enlighten me - how can it be about protecting the civilian population from the horrors of Nazi occupation? Or are you equating Zionism with Nazism? I think that is regarded as a no-no on this site.

      I'm not sure btw whether you are accepting or not accepting Resolution 242 - you seem to want to cherry pick.

    • OK - one more: "safeguard the Holy Places of all religions". It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

      link to gm2j.com

    • Witty - here he is peddling his usual waffle:

      link to liberalzionism.wordpress.com

      I note that he's the perennial victim even about his exodus from Mondoweiss.

    • I'll go for the "Palestinians are far from recognizing Israel ..."

      link to haaretz.com

      link to ynetnews.com

      That took 30 seconds on google. I'll leave the rest of jonah's delusions to those more knowledgeable than myself.

    • Sometimes in my anger at yet again seeing Fred or another of the hasbarists repeat falsehoods that on which they've been previously corrected, I feel that this forum should have a three strikes rule - if you lie three times and are corrected on each occasion from reliable sources then you should be banned. But then I realise that, every time this happens, one of the wonderful contributors to this forum tells me something or sends me to a site I didn't already know about. I learn something as, no doubt, do others. Interestingly, almost always, what I learn reduces Israel's credibility. So keep up the good work, Fred.

    • Pray tell us the real history but please don't expect us to believe Israeli government sites or jewishpress.com. They don't have a lot of credibility in these parts. Give us some objective sources.

      "What is the point to show someone who sees only red that the world actually has different colors? He stubbornly and against all best arguments will persevere in seeing only red (especially when it comes to Israel). " Exactly, jonah!

      Again I ask for objective sources that counter what Hostage, tree, RoHa, Shingo and others have said here. Come on!

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