Total number of comments: 1792 (since 2010-02-26 10:49:56)
An old Jewish guy in Oz. Tired of the fallacies surrounding the I/P issue. We were given the territory for a homeland state, with more than enough room for every Jewish person on the planet. Even today. Since declaration, Israel illegally acquired more and more land outside of it's actual Sovereign boundaries. All I ask is that Israel adhere to the law, under which it can easily protect itself, grow and prosper. I've received too many threats for opposing Israel's policies towards the Palestinians, broken windows, graffiti'd walls, hate mail, hate snail mail. I'd prefer to remain anonymous, if that's OK. Who I am is irrelevant. It's the information that counts. :-)
Website: http://talknic.wordpress.com
@ hophmi "So why do the Palestinians need an army if it is no threat to Israeli hegemony?"
You know what hegemony means? link to google.com.au
Let's paraphrase. 'The Palestinians have not been able to halt Israeli hegemony without an army, so why do they need an army?'
Maybe to stop Israeli hegemony..
Israel can't nuke the Palestinians it occupies without slaughtering Israelis and contaminating itself. Likewise the Palestinians can't use a nuke to stop Israeli hegemony.
All states have an equal right to self protection. The Palestinian State only needs enough of a military to stop Israeli hegemony.
In fact, Israel has a " sacred trust" to ensure the Palestinians reach that stage.
@ Woody " Scratch a zionist"?
No need. It ooooozes out like settler excreta over Palestinian farms
@ mondonut " If the Palestinians are not interested in either negotiating a 2ss or in their own political unity"
Uh? You've been shown this before
Of course you must ignore it in order to continue your idiotic, false narrative. Such a good little propagandist.
"Northern border" ? Refer to UNSC res 497
@ Obsidian I practiced in New York City before making aliyah."
A) This yours? "First I paraphrased Norm, than I gave the original quote, which I had to search for in archives." link to mondoweiss.net
A legal practitioner of any worth should know accurate paraphrasing does not change the meaning of what was said. You changed the meaning completely.
B) Aliyah quite recently ... or not so recently link to pages.citebite.com .... Oh? link to mondoweiss.net ... whatever, congratulations
The JNF and ILF buy 'real estate' claim it is 'territory' and sell to unwary buyers, including Israelis willing to be duped link to wp.me
@ hophmi "Actually, they can say whatever they want, since this is a free country."
They're US citizens? The First amendment is " afforded to citizens "
[[the current rule is that "the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action. link to law.cornell.edu
"...that’s the way it works
See above
@ yonah fredman "I believe that her statement is ambiguous and she should clarify for us
Uh? Interpretation? Ambiguous? Read what's actually said, don't change anything. It's quite clear
The territory of Palestine that became Israel 00:01 May 15th 1948 was renamed "Israel". No longer Palestine. Whatever remained was/is Palestine.
The Israeli Government of 1948 understood "outside the State of Israel" "the Government of the State of Israel operates in parts of Palestine outside the territory of the State of Israel" ... "areas, outside the territory of the State of Israel.."
@ Mayhem "Can one interpret the intent of this expression to be anything other than to get rid of the Jews from Israel?"
Uh? link to unispal.un.org
Palestine is not Israel. Israel cannot be independent and a part of Palestine.
MORE @ link to wp.me
What remained of Palestine after Israel was declared independent of Palestine is still being colonized by a state that tramples on the basic tenets of Judaism and breaks laws, UN Charter and relevant conventions adopted in large part because of what befell our fellow Jews under the Nazis, doesn't deserve the title 'Jewish state'.
"The human rights of Israeli Jews don’t matter – they are expendable because her cause matters more to her. "
First you speculate, then you build an argument based on your speculations... it's straw Pajero...
"The continuation of efforts to get rid of Israel, that have been going on in one shape or form since 1948, remains the root of the problem"
The UNSC says otherwise... link to wp.me
3. Reconfirms that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem have no legal validity and constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;
The more the Jewish state's criminality is exposed, the more desperate it becomes.
Because innocent people might die as a consequence of lies, Propaganda for War and Inciting National, Racial or Religious Hatred is illegal link to refworld.org
Spreading the Hasbara, false accusations, slurs & smears is no better than purposefully infecting people with aids.
"I still remember like it was yesterday the time my Saxon great to the 80th power grandfather smacked my Celtic great to the 81th grandfather on top of the head with a battle-ax. Historical memory–it’s very traumatic."
Th' big bang wuz scarrrry ... Loud too....
@ Obsidian "I don’t do BS, bro"
BULLSH*T!!
//"Norm said that he, ‘rejoiced in the death of occupiers, including Americans’”//
Asked for evidence, you provided NO THING that said he ‘rejoiced in the death of...’
What you have shown (again and again) is a propensity for bullsh*t
@ miriam6 "the Wall was put in place to stop suicide bombers entering Israel "
Say.... Why isn't the wall on Israel's border instead of being illegally built in non-Israeli territory?
"No doubt this comment will attract the usual predictable ,misanthropic ,hateful ,nihilistic comments from certain other m.w. commenters about how Israelis deserve to be slaughtered by terrorists"
Cite verbatim an instance from an m.w. commenter about how Israelis deserve to be slaughtered by terrorists ... thx
Say aren't false accusations against the basic tenets of Judaism? I guess you're not Jewish ... or Christian for that matter
"It was only after 1993 in the wake of nihilistic suicide murder employed by the arabs against Israel that Israel finally realised there was no other way to protect it’s civilians BUT to build the wall."
Strange. The Israeli Government was encouraging its civilians to illegally settle in "territories occupied" long before 1993 link to wp.me
GC VI is to protect all civilians, including those of the Occupying Power. Instead Israel ENDANGERS its own civilians, a war crime and a crime against humanity. Quite sickening.
jonah "From the Israeli point of view it was and is a necessary act of defense against terror attacks from the WB"
Uh huh. So, why aren't the checkpoints on Israel's border? GC VI is to protect all civilians. Why are Israeli civilians encouraged by the government of the Jewish state to settle illegally in "territories occupied" where they and their children are endangered.
"BTW, Ramadan Shalah, Palestinian Islamic Jihad leader, publicly admitted that Israel’s security fence is an important obstacle to the terrorist organizations."
Care to actually quote what the translation on the video says.... thx...
Please try to be honest for once. link to youtube.com
jonah "If the so-called West Bank was sovereign to Jordan 1950-1967, why a sovereign state as Jordan is launched hundred of terror attacks against another neighboring sovereign state during this period?"
So called Judea and Samaria were officially rename the West Bank while under Jordanian sovereignty. The area has never been sovereign to Israel. On what date was the name of this non-Israeli territory legally reverted to Judea & Samaria and by who?
Examples please of the State of Jordan launching terror attacks against Israelis in Israel.... If true there'd very likely be UNSC resolutions against Jordan if true .... go ahead
"An sort of creeping war of attrition...
Uh? Israel has been doing the creepy creeping war. Illegally claiming by 1949 more than 50% of the territory slated for an Arab state. link to wp.me The Arab states had/have a right to restore those non-Israeli territories to Arab control
Like all pushers of the wholly holey Hasbarrow, you have to conveniently ignore the fact it is Israel censured by the UNSC, not the states attempting to restore their rights.
"what do you think?
You can't admit to anything, your Hasbara nonsense will completely unravel.
giladg "You would have to be the ultimate naive person on this earth to think that Mondoweiss is going to store any information that will show Israel in a positive light"
You would have to be the ultimate naive person on this earth to think there is anything positive to say about any state while it is still illegally acquiring territory by war, illegally annexing territory illegally acquired by war and illegally settling territory illegally acquired by war.
You would have to be the ultimate naive person on this earth to think there is anything positive to say about any state while it is breaching International Law, the UN Charter and relative conventions adopted to in large part because of what ^&*&^%$ Nazis did to our Jewish fellows. Rather odd for a Jewish state ... no? Yet that's precisely what you're supportive of. WEIRD!!
"Take my word for it Walker
Uh? You call for evidence of assertions, back your assertions in the same manner. Go ahead.....
@ jonah
" There was quite a lot of terrorism against Israel before 1967 from the Gaza strip and the West Bank occupied by Jordan"
Israel occupied non-Israeli territory long before 1967. According to the Israeli government, from May 22nd 1948 link to wp.me
The West Bank was sovereign to Jordan 1950-1967 and the territory of the UN Member State of Jordan in 1967
BTW WikIPedia is second hand opinion, infested by and subject to propagandists
They reflected Government policy tho. link to haaretz.com
@ mondonut "As for RoR, no person on this site has ever offered an reasonable explanation of the Palestinian definition of the RoR, which includes 1948 and the descendants
B) The Palestinian claim for RoR to what became Israel, is under UNGA res 194. Adopted in 1948. Here is the definition according to the UN. link to unispal.un.org
It says nothing about lineal descendants.
You are of course repeating nonsensical Israeli propaganda referring to the irrelevant UNRWA figure. Surprise !!!!!!! UNRWA didn't exist in 1948. I have pointed it out to you before BTW.
A) "no person on this site has ever offered an reasonable explanation of the Palestinian definition of the RoR"
Only a &*^$% brain dead liar .... link to mondoweiss.net
link to mondoweiss.net
link to mondoweiss.net
@ mondonut "Plenty of Israelis think otherwise"
Plenty of Israelis are ignorant of Israel's legal borders. As a consequence they're ignorant of the implications, actual legal status, why the UN keeps reminding Israel of its obligations, why there is no demographic threat to Israel, why the UNSC hasn't condemned the Arab states for allegedly invading Israel, why the settlements in non-Israeli territory are illegal etc etc and why the Israeli Government must keep them in the dark and feed them more bullsh*t
There is no demographic threat to Israel within its legal borders. link to wp.me ... It's mathematically IMPOSSIBLE!!
"the non-existent RoR." For Jewish folk from Arab States too?
hophmi
"OJ Simpson was assessed $33,000,000 for the wrongful death of two people. Multiply that by 3,000,000 and add some and you might approach a fraction of a proper figure ....... etc etc etc
Is a non-Jewish life worth the same hophmi ?
OlegR ... to use your odd all encompassing terminology
Jews to world : 6 million of our people were murdered.
World to Jews : We are sooo sorry , we deeply respect and sympathize with you ... here take half of Palestine
Jews to world : We want more!
World to Jews : We are sooo sorry, you can't, you signed an Armistice Agreement
Jews to world : But we made the dessert bloom
World to Jews : We are sooo sorry, it's irrelevant to the sovereign extent of the State of Israel and what, as a UN Member, the State of Israel may or may not do in territories the Israeli Government said were " outside the State of Israel"
Jews to world : The UN is biased
World to Jews : We are sooo sorry but according to the rules you agreed to when you became a UN Member, we have to keep reminding you of the binding laws, binding UN Charter and relevant binding conventions that you keep breaking
Jews to world : What about China?
Netanyahu to Jews : Oooops I'm sooo sorry... duh!
DavidK "The Haredim hate Christians. They regularly spit on monks and priests in Jeruselam"
Is it common elsewhere or specific to Israel and the areas Israel occupies?
Many of the tourism 'articles' in Haaretz are for places outside of Israel's sovereign territory. It's not a new phenomenon.
Nor is the omission of 'illegal' when writing about the illegal settlements & illegal settlers, or using 'disputed' for occupied territories, or Israel's borders with Syria
No opportunity is wasted. It's all part of the brainwashing and propaganda re-inforcement program.
@ Bill in Maryland
link to jewishpress.com
BDSM By: Lori Lowenthal Marcus ... link to google.com.au LOL
quirx "The first necessary step is abstention (or absence) in the UN Security Council on any resolutions regarding Israel."
UNSC members can only abstain from or vote for Chapt VI resolutions emphasizing or reaffirming already existing Law, UN Charter, conventions. They cannot veto Law, UN Charter, conventions. The US already abstains from Chapt VI resolutions effecting Israel.
UNSC members can veto Chapt VII resolutions. Unlike/Law/UN Charter/conventions, Chapt VII resolutions deal with the 'actions' to be taken against states in breach. These actions are not predetermined.
@ hophmi "A country does not require international permission to defend itself"
Correct. But that's not what was being discussed. AGAIN... this was the assertion … verbatim “the crime of planning wars in violation of treaties“
BTW Self Defense
Cite the Israeli report to the UNSC .... thx.
@ Hostage
Thx .. I was un-aware of that advisory ...
"are able and willing to carry out these obligations" .. being justification/s enough for the US to veto so it never gets to UNGA via the UNSC
@ Hostage ... Thx As always comprehensive info... tho my bad .. I read your "succession with Great Britain" as 'secession'
@ Hopmi, the link is on topic..
"The assertion was that planning the Gaza attack constituted a war crime."
Ahem.... This was the assertion ... verbatim "the crime of planning wars in violation of treaties"
@Hostage "Israel claimed as much during a conference on the debts, frozen bank accounts, and succession with Great Britain in 1949. "
?? It would have had to have been British territory, no? Is there a link to the conference text thx
@ Citizen Technically, Israel remains in violation of its initial member contract with the UN. It really is an illegitimate UN member
Alas, technically, the US can veto any attempt to kick Israel out of the UN. All Israel's eggs are in the one precious veto basket. That's why the Israel lobby work so hard to keep the US on side. You can bet no tactic is off the table
"to allow return of the 750-770,000 natives" ....
... some to Israel's actual 1948 sovereign extent and some to non-Israeli territory of 1948. As the Occupying Power, Israel doesn't allow any, even to the non-Israeli territories it occupies.
65 years ago the life expectancy was about 42. Do the maths. The vast majority of the 750-770,000 have already passed away.
Qualifying definition of a Palestine refugee 1948 according to the UN link to unispal.un.org
No lineal descendents. They had to have lived in the region to return to it.
mondonut "... Or that Israel committed a war crime simply by pre-planning how to deal with the inevitable attacks from Gaza."
"simply by pre-planning" Ooooops you missed and simply executed said plan in non-Israeli territory, without fulfilling the legal requirement of informing the UNSC per Chapt VII Article 51 of the .. "Measures taken"
Here, attempt to cherry pick and twist this around link to un-documents.net I'm sure other folk'll be able to read what it actually says.
See how International Law (all law is binding), the UN Charter (binding in its entirety on all UN Members), conventions (binding on those who ratify them), previous relative UN/UNSC resolutions (all based on binding International Law, the binding UN Charter and relative binding conventions) are: 'recognized', 'reaffirmed', 'emphasized', 'stressed', borne in mind', 'considered', 'recalled' and 'noted'
@ Mayhem I addressed what you wrote.
You don’t seem to worry that people make unfounded remarks, assertions and allegations against Israel"
An odd accusation. I often correct people's mistaken assumptions, either side of the issue.. However:
Israel is responsible for this particular mess by having ignored its legal obligations for 65 years
Only Israel can stop its illegal behaviour
It could unilaterally end occupation NOW!
Unilaterally adhere to the law NOW!
Unilaterally end illegal settlements NOW!
Begin unilateral withdrawal from all non-Israeli territories NOW!
"It is exceedingly obvious that the tactic is to throw as much mud as you can hoping some of it will stick."
I'm not responsible for people walking thru their own elephant sh*te
" there are much bigger offenders at large."
Oh, the whataboutery ... I forgot .... OK ... as you're so concerned, lead me to 'em ... you'll be there ... right?
the way forward is to seek full independence for Palestine, in terms of membership of UN etc etc etc. Even if Israeli troops remain in the West Bank
They could 'seek' but can't attain full independence for Palestine if Israeli troops remain in the West Bank and; without full independence there can be no UN Membership
hophmi
"Explain to me how the one-state solution protects Jewish self-determination rights"
Same as everyone else's rights
"So then stop telling me it’s about international law. It isn’t"
Correct. Law only comes into effect when broken. It is about the Jewish state BREAKING the law by illegally acquiring territory by war, by illegal annexation, by illegal settlements and by ignoring its obligations as the Occupying Power over non-Israeli territories.
"It’s about privileging one side of the conflict over the other"
It's about territory illegally acquired by war by a UN Member state.
hophmi "It’s not a war of aggression when it’s a war of self-defense"
Under the UN Charter Chapt VII, Art 51.. UN Members must inform the UNSC of the intention behind their actions. Israel has never done either.
The last legal declaration of war ever lodged with the UNSC was the Declaration on the Invasion of Palestine May 15th 1948 by the Arab states. link to mfa.gov.il
The UNSC saw no reason to condemn the Arab States for going to the defense of the territory allotted for an Arab state from Israeli troops "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine" according to the Israeli Government at the time link to wp.me
"It’s a war of self-defense when the government is attacking your civilians with rockets on a regular basis"
The IDF memorial site statistics tell us more Israeli military have been injured and or killed than have Israeli civilians. Seems wonky home made rockets are safer for civilians than Israel's super high tech, pinpoint accurate, mass collateral, human slaughtering devices
@ Hostage "Neither plan was implemented"
Neither was 'fully' implemented. One element of the plan most certainly was. The US recognized the State of Israel as the provisional government of the State of Israel requested
Recognition by the USSR link to jstor.org Australia link to trove.nla.gov.au etc were also based on UNGA res 181. Defined frontiers were a pre-requisite of the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States (1933) Art 1. b.
As to the remainder of the Plan for Partition, corpus separatum was never instituted. The territory was never legally separated from what remained of Palestine.
To declare the remaining Palestinian territory independent or whether to stay under the stewardship of the Arab states was an independent matter of self determination for the Palestinians. Alas Israel has prevented Palestinian independence by having occupied parts of their territory link to mfa.gov.il over the last 65 years.
@ tree - I answered to this... Mayhem "I went looking for something to substantiate this ‘soccer ball’ assertion and came across it
mentioned without any corroboration in a comment in this blog link to link to electronicintifada.net "
@ hophmi "The students shouted Olmert down."
You QUOTED their argument points! Here again.. ” a plan which refuses rights of refugees, maintains occupation, and keeps in place the Wall and the apartheid system it reinforces, offers no peace at all.”
"This is the Olmert plan. As you can see, it includes transferring Israeli land with the ’67 borders to the Palestinians as a swap. "
It's not Israeli land. The borders of '67 are the same as the borders of May 15th 1948 link to trumanlibrary.org Israel has never legally annexed ANY non-Israeli territory. The Armistice AGREEMENTS of 1949 specifically did not change any borders. The two peace AGREEMENTS did not change any borders, they both acknowledged "the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;" per UNSC res 242.
Olmert's offer was to swap the Palestinians some Palestinian territory for some other Palestinian territory, so that Israel can keep some Palestinian territory.
"Why not one big state? Surely the right thing is for Indonesians and East Timorese to live together in one state in harmony"
Why? East Timorese sovereignty was being usurped by Indonesia. East Timorese sovereignty has been restored because the East Timorese wanted it thus. Apparently self determination for Jews is OK, but not for the Palestinians or the East Timorese.
By your criteria, surely the right thing is for USers and Mexicans to live together in one state in harmony. Right?
Mayhem "This stupid emotive remark from one of the evicted:
She saw Israeli soldiers playing soccer with the head of a two year old child "
Uh? link to electronicintifada.net I can't find the comment. You're making stupid emotive remarks up.
Lying is against the basic tenets of Judaism. That you purposefully LIE on behalf of the JEWISH state is really quite bizarre. That you provide a link showing you're LYING, suggests you're really quite stupid.
"These unfounded, insane comments"
That YOU made up...
" that are intended purely to pour scorn on Israelis"
Well .... YOU made it up...
" illustrate the bankruptcy of these Palestinian supporters. They bring disrepute on to the Palestinian position, that too often uses fabrications and lies to build its case against Israel"
YOU made it up = YOUR bankruptcy. YOUR fabrications and lies
"I ... came across it mentioned "
No you didn't. YOU made it up... without any corroboration link to electronicintifada.net "
Thanks again for affording the opportunity to show readers just how low and dishonest you can be
hophmi "You deny it? On what basis? "
On the basis that they're YOUR words.
"they’re for one “democratic” state, which they count on the Palestinians, the prospective majority in this state, to deliver. So where’s the recognition of Jewish self-determination? "
“democratic” Look it up. (Jews in the "democratic" US, Australia, UK ... have a right to self determination)
"You’re the one who cites 181 and 194 all the time.
UNGA Res 181 - recommended two separate independent states. Israeli occupation of non-Israeli territories has for 65 yrs ( link to wp.me ) prevented Arab independence in territories slated for the Arab state.
UNGA res 194 was based on having two separate entities, whether one was independent or not.
"How will this plan comport with those resolutions? It doesn’t. And you damn well know it"
Of course it doesn't, this plan has arisen because of the FAILURE of Israel to adhere to its legal obligations under the: Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States, the UN Charter, UNGA resolutions 181 & 194 and numerous UNSC resolutions.
You couldn't make it up.... but hophmi does...
"We get it; any plan that recognizes any kind of Jewish nationality you’ll oppose"
You get your own words hophmi. Not theirs
"Got it loud and clear"
Pssssst .... the voices in you head are your own.
@ hophmi "Interrupting Olmert’s speech discredits his plan? So if I shout abuse at you, that means I discredit you? LOL. "
abuse? where on the video? is this abuse or a discredit? " a plan which refuses rights of refugees, maintains occupation, and keeps in place the Wall and the apartheid system it reinforces, offers no peace at all." (you did copy and paste it, yes?)
"a guy who actually negotiated and tried to make peace"
Olmert offer - swap the Palestinians some Palestinian territory for some other Palestinian territory, so that Israel can keep some Palestinian territory.
"Honesty! BDS is for the one-state solution. It’s worked so well everywhere else, like East Timor"
Uh? East Timor's sovereignty was RESTORED from Indonesian OCCUPATION
asherpat
"settlers"? It was "population"
"I asked @Amigo whether a retreat of Israel to 1948 will be sufficient for peaceful and unthreatened existence."
You.. verbatim.. "Please indicate that if Israel stick to its own territory (I assume you mean the Armistice lines of 1948) then you, Amigo, agree that Israel then can exist as a Jewish state without the right of return of Palestinian refugees?"
You seem to keep changing things to suit you're desperation. BTW the Armistice Lines were 1949. They specifically did not change any borders.
<em"(PLO’s well known strategy link to youtube.com)?"
One of Memri's un-corroborated translations? WOW!! Impressive.
" you confirmed implicitly that the answer to my original question to @Amigo is “no” ... etc "
Can you point out where Hostage actually said as much?
Frontiers / borders / boundaries
Something else for you to ignore
@ Hostage .. “Israel” purchased less than 7 percent of the territory of Palestine
Jewish folk and Jewish institutions purchased 'real estate', not 'territory'.
asherpat "Any Arab living in Israel with Israeli passport can attend as they please."
Any ISRAELI citizen
"...one player of Israeli national U21 team is an Arab, what you call “Palestinian” "
ISRAELI citizen. BTW Arab Jews are not un-common
"And if you meant that “Palestinians” living on the east of the separation barrier, then Israel has the right.."
Israel's actual legally recognized sovereign extent ends at the " frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947" link to trumanlibrary.org
@ BrianEsker You've certainly convinced me.
It’s obvious that:
You're a brain dead supporter of Israel's illegal activities "outside the State of Israel", in "territories occupied", where the Occupying Power has a "sacred trust" to protect non-self-governing territories, the people, their property and their territory.
However, Israel has, we are told by the UNSC time and time again, illegally acquired territory by war, illegally annexed territory, illegally settled territory. Is in breach of International Law the UN Charter and the GC's.
"Throwing stones is dangerous..."
That's why the GC's oblige Israel to keep its civilian population out of "territories occupied" where violence might erupt, instead on purposefully endangering them in order to create illegal facts on the ground.
"Using children as “child soldiers” to confront the military and police is a war crime, and whoever put these kids up to it should face justice"
You're hilarious. Do you really think after three or four or more generations living under occupation their entire lives, that occupied kids need anyone to "put them up to it"? The presence of their oppressors is what "puts them up to it".
"Osama Bin Laden, who wished to be the ruler of Saudi Arabia, to express his chagrin at the lack of such a role in his life, by attacking the World Trade Center
Twaddle
"The WTC attack led to an attack by the US on Afghanistan and Iraq. "
More twaddle. The PNAC many of whom who eventually infested the Whitehouse under Bush Jnr, outlined the sequence of events in the M East in 1998.
So hophmi, when people celebrate July 4 or Memorial Day by marching in a parade or by watching fireworks, or by having a bbq, do you go around asking them how they can celebrate a country that attacks others with drones and invaded two countries in the past 12 years?
Will you boycott Alicia Keys 4th July concert in Tel Aviv ?
@ W.Jones
Wonder if John McCain entered Syria legally?
@ hophmi
"I don’t think protecting civilians is evil."
You don't think at all. You're too busy scratching the bottom of the propaganda muck bucket for the next bullsh*t excuse for an excuse
Any "Occupying Power" that purposefully breaks the GC's by encouraging its citizens to illegally settle in "territories occupied", to create illegal facts on the ground, is inherently evil.
The GCs are to protect ALL civilians from the consequences of violence that is likely to erupt in occupied territories. A government that uses its military to protect the citizens it is PURPOSEFULLY endangering, then crying victim, is the behaviour of a serial abuser.
Any state in breach of Law, UN Charter and conventions adopted in large part because of the horrific treatment of our Jewish fellows at the hands of the Nazis, is in respect to those laws, no better than the ^&%^ing Nazis. That's what you're supporting. Bravo!
That you refuse to learn from the wealth of irrefutable evidence put before you here at MW only shows how well Israeli brainwashing works or how utterly stupid some folk can be
"Black people were not blowing up white people and talking about taking over the United States"
A) They weren't being dispossessed of US territory, they had citizenship and were not kept stateless by the US
B) The Palestinians are not talking about taking over Israel. Israeli propagandists are.
C) The Palestinian claim is for their legal rights which don't include any of Israel. In fact they have offered Israel more than 70% of their rightful territories for peace. At the UN. In front of the WORLD. You missed it?
"This is a conflict between two people with self-determination rights in the same place"
No it isn't. The Jewish Peoples Council self determination became effective 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time)
Israel has for 65 years prevented Palestinian self determination by occupying wholly or in part non-Israeli territory. An entity cannot declare independence unless it exercises self control over its territory. There has always been some entity or another in control of Palestinian territory in part or wholly for over 2,000 years. Israel since 1948 link to wp.me
"And that is how the vast majority of the West understands it"
UN/UNSC resolutions are passed by the majority and they tell us the vast majority understand Israel is in breach of the law, the UN Charter and the GCs. The majority of the worlds' nations have already recognized Palestine as a state.
"How can it support China, a dictatorship that oppresses Tibet?"
Uh? You really should get some sleep or therapy, because your whataboutery doesn't shape up .. Netanyahu How could he not boycott! The shame! The hypocrisy!
Grown men playing hero with wooden guns. Need anyone say more?
Obsidian "... and Oslo was followed by the Camp David Summit, where the refugee issue should have been resolved, but wasn’t"
Just like it wasn't in 1948 when Israeli intentions became clear
It was certainly Israel's intention to keep non-Israeli territory by 31 August 1949
The Conciliation Commission emphatically dismissed the notion 3rd September 1949 . Reminding Israel of the recent Armistice "agreements" with the Arab States. (short memories I guess)
Israel simply ignored its own Armistice "agreements" and obligations to the UN Charter and has continued to do so til the present day
Dis-agree. Tho mild, it amounts to collective punishment. Not all Israelis have voted for the successive Israeli Governments who have been responsible for Israel's crimes. Due to Israeli propaganda I doubt most Israelis are even aware of the actual illegality of Israel's actions.
BDS is valid for goods illegally produced in "territories occupied" and companies who profit from or assist in the ongoing occupation and illegal settlements.
"The Nazis occupied France, Poland etc. so then according to you it would’ve been okay for Billie Holiday and Bing Crosby to perform for them in Berlin!"
In Germany, for the public, yes. (tho I doubt our allies would have allowed it)
Naftush "Thrice in recent memory Israel laid offers of Palestinian statehood on the table"
An offer by Israel to keep non-Israeli territories while swapping non-Israeli territory for other non-Israeli territory, is not an offer anyone in their right might would accept. Or for that matter offer.
"The offers included partitioning the Israeli capital, something unknown in the settling of other conflicts"
It's Arab territory (UNSC res 476)
"How about moving forward on a path that would make all that romantic struggling unnecessary?"
Good idea. Israel could adhere to its LEGAL obligations for once
Obsidian " Israel and the PA agreed at Oslo to defer negotiations of the refugee issues to a later date"
Oslo expired. GC IV is not a negotiable item. Return or compensation is an individual right. At best when and how might be negotiated between authorities.
"Keyword ‘agreed’."
Israel "agreed" to adhere to International Law (all law is binding), the UN Charter (binding on all member states in its entirety) and GC IV, also binding.
The Jewish Agency "agreed" to there being no need for the Arabs to agree to UNGA res 181 link to wp.me
Israel "agreed" to its borders being the " frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947" link to trumanlibrary.org
Israel "agreed" that it was occupying non-Israeli territory, "outside the State of Israel", "in Palestine" May 22nd 1948 link to wp.me
MRW "July 4 performance in Tel Aviv
Telling."
Not the 4th in the US.
Tzombo ".... On the Sabbath too!
International date lines make it difficult to ascertain.
jon s "The Palestinians have the right to struggle against the occupation, and to live in peace and freedom , but not to deny the same rights to us"
No one is denying ANY rights to Israelis. In fact the world at large has been incredibly generous to Israelis and the Jewish state. Over fourty years of UNSC reminders of Israel's obligations to binding law, the UN Charter and relevant conventions . All of which the Jewish state has ignored.
Abbas has twice now offered Israelis the right to take over half of the Palestinians rightful territories. Once in 2011 and again in 2012 at the UN, in front of the world! Israel ignored the offer and continued building illegal settlements.
Bizarre that you should complain. Rather indicative of the brainwashed or purposeful ignorance of Israeli apologists, especially as not one cent was paid for the 'territory' of the Jewish state. The 'real estate' owned by Jewish folk and their institutions was A) not 'territory' and; B) minuscule compared to the 'territory'. Sheeeeeesh the US at least paid for Alaska!
"The Palestinians themselves don’t boycott Israel, they aren’t stupid"
Indeed, they're not stupid. But you appear to be. How does one boycott an Occupying Power and survive?
Suggest away ........
Obsidian "Why is it that supporters of Palestinian rights have so little to say when Palestinians living in Arab States are denied their rights?"
Uh? They'd be refugees who have a RIGHT of return that the Jewish state refuses to acknowledge (even to non-Israeli territories under Palestinian control).
Is that the right you're talking about? Because it's one of the only rights Palestinians have as refugees hosted in Arab states unless they apply for citizenship in those countries. Not many do as they'd rather return to their rightful homelands.
Only a few people, who're all over the age of 65 have RoR to what was declared and recognized as Israel 1948
The vast majority have RoR to what remained of Palestine after Israel was declared independent of Israel. However, the Jewish state refuses to acknowledge any RoR for Palestine refugees to any territory whatsoever.
They've been living under the protection and generosity of the Arab states for 65 years while the Jewish state continues to illegally dispossess, illegally acquire territory, illegally annex territory, illegally settle "Arab territory"
jon s "Turkey, which has occupied and ethnically cleansed Northern Cyprus since 1974"
What fun... We're doing a spot of whataboutery. Israel has been slowly ethnically cleansing non-Jews from non-Israeli territory since May 15th 1948.
".. repression of the Kurdish minority"
Israel represses the Arab majority in what remains of Palestine and; by refusing RoR even to Palestinian controlled territory, Israel also represses the refugees generously hosted by the neighbouring Arab states and elsewhere for 65 years
"..which hasn’t even acknowledged responsibility for the Armenian genocide"
More whataboutery ... Israel hasn't admitted to the Nakba.
Neither Israel's or Turkey's actions are admirable.
" yet I don’t see any petitions calling on her to boycott Turkey.
Seeing as you care so much START ONE. I'll join you.
Tel Aviv is in Israel. Israelis have every right to invite whoever they like to perform.
There would be a valid point to a boycott were the concert in Jerusalem or any other non-Israeli territory.
pabelmont "talknik recites, unsourced.." link to google.com
"At any rate, the 1947 proposed boundaries were far smaller than 1950-1966 Israel. "
The boundaries Israel asked to be recognized by and was recognized by are those of UNGA res 181. Confirmed in the Israeli Government statement to the UNSC May 22nd 1948
The 1949 Armistice Agreements specifically did not change any territorial boundaries.
Israel's first claim to territories "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine" (ibid) was on the 31st Aug 1949 link to unispal.un.org
It was rebuffed by the UNITED NATIONS CONCILIATION COMMISSION
FOR PALESTINE, citing the Armistice Agreements. link to domino.un.org
".. I don’t know what would be “legal” or “illegal” about annexation..."
1933 Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States required Israel to have A) a defined territory and; B) codified the illegality of acquiring territory by war. (codified by the citing of pre-existing International Law. Only two states, Brazil and Peru, accepted the doctrine of inadmissibility of acquiring territory by war in principle, tho they did not consider it codifiable)
Legal annexation embraces the right to self determination. E.g., by 1854 US had adopted the legal custom of annexing via an agreement with the party whose territory was to be annexed, either through a referendum of the legitimate citizens of the territory to be annexed (the Mexican citizens of Texas link to tsl.state.tx.us ), or by some other agreement mechanism, as with Hawaii & Alaska. Although the US bought Alaska, it was not sovereign to the US until annexation, which was by agreement.
The US was instrumental in this customary legal method passing into what is known as Customary International Law under which the UNSC condemned Israel's unilateral annexation of East Jerusalem. UNSC res 252 and EIGHT reminders and UNSC Res 497 (Golan)
Re - the territories acquired by war by Israel by May 11th 1949 and the signing of the 1949 Armistice Agreements. The UN can only tell UN Members how they may or may not act towards non-members, it cannot directly censure non-members. Thus there are no UNSC resolutions directly censuring Israel for acquiring territory by war prior to becoming a UN Member, even though the acquisition of territory by war was inadmissible under the 1933 Montevideo Convention.
Israel must, but has not yet attempted to, annex any of the territories it acquired by war before becoming a UN Member. If Israel now attempts to annex unilaterally, it will be condemned by the UNSC.
Contrary to popular belief, it is Israel who MUST negotiate an agreement with the Palestinians in order to circumvent the legal consequences of 65 years of illegal activities. The Palestinians meanwhile are under no legal obligation to forgo any of their rights, even in negotiations. Their incredibly generous offer of 2011 and 2012 were ignored by Israel.
“1967″ borders
No such thing ... yet.
Israel has never legally annexed any territory to its internationally recognized sovereign extent of 1948 ".. the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947" Thus Israel was recognized and accepted into the UN.
Anything BUT require Israel to adhere to the law. Kerry, Netanyahu, Blair, are quite insane.
BrianEsker
"The facts so far only show a piles of bones that were buried in an Islamic manner"
First hand account link to uk.news.yahoo.com
"There has been no confirmation or specific evidence to indicate how they got there"
First hand account link to uk.news.yahoo.com
@ mondonut
link to uk.news.yahoo.com
MHughes976 "Has Hawking since he declined the Israeli invitation accepted hospitality from China .... ?"
Netanyahu has.
Hilarious stuff.
Obsidian " No. But maybe an appreciation for an ancient and beautiful piece of artwork which had withstood the ravages of time. "
This story is about HOMES that had stood the ravages of time until the Jewish state exceeded its legal sovereign extent in its never ending gluttony for other people's territory. No one can live in or eat a piece of ceramic artwork.
"BTW. King David, aka Daoud, has a revered place in Islam."
Are you tying to suggest it was purposeful desecration by a Muslim? Could have been a Christian. Maybe an atheist. Or maybe by the 1967 war, because it wasn't the only part damaged link to cojs.org
@ Obsidian of May 31, 2013 at 4:11 pm - incapable of honesty, the Israeli propagandist immediately & predictably points elsewhere.
No wonder Israel has dug itself into a deep delusional and illegal hole from which it can no longer afford to extricate itself. It is the classic behaviour of a pathological abuser.
Obsidian "An ancient synagogue mosaic from the Byzantine period found in Gaza in 1965...etc etc..
By 1949 the Jewish state had already illegally acquired half of what remained of Palestine after Israel was declared, you expect the Palestinians to have a King David Appreciation Association?
Mike_Konrad "If the Israelis wanted to erase all of Gaza’s history "
I wrote something about Israelis wanting "to erase all of Gaza’s history"? When there's no argument you make one up. WOW! That's really stupid & quite typical.
"If the Israelis wanted .. they would not have left a building standing"
By your criteria if Hitler had wanted to kill all Germany's Jews he'd have just shot 'em.
Israel doesn't need Gaza, having already illegally acquired over half of the non-Israeli Palestinian Mediterranean shore line. link to wp.me none of which has ever been legally annexed to Israel.
"They probably increased street size to make the roads accessible to military jeeps and prevent sniping from inaccessible alleyways"
Speculation can be fun eh? You can say anything!
"Maybe their actions were not simon pure, but it is hardly tyranny, as it left the roads available to the locals, as well"
Your arrogance seems to be unlimited. The locals weren't capable of deciding where they'd've liked their roads and what buildings they might have removed?
BTW Under Egyptian occupation there were no illegal settlements for Egyptian citizens, maybe that's why Egypt didn't need to "make the roads accessible to military jeeps and prevent sniping from inaccessible alleyways". They weren't thieves.
Mike_Konrad "Requiring that streets be expanded is not exactly tyranny"
It is tyranny when it's the Occupying Power with no civil jurisdiction illegally requiring that streets be expanded
Sleight of jackboot
hophmi "The Palestinians elected a terrorist organization"
A) To the Palestinians they aren't a terrorist organization. So no, they didn't elect a terrorist organization.
B) The Hamas election platform, ever read it?
C) The Palestinian election was at least legal. Israelis elected terrorists in their first democratic but illegal election (it was not under the required constitution) .
D) US/Israel, knowing the candidates, didn't complain during elections. In fact they demanded the election be fair and democratic, resulting in one of the most scrutinized elections in history.
E) After having complied with the US/Israeli demand on holding elections, the US/Israel immediately f&*ked Palestine over by supporting Fatah, by banning Palestines' LEGALLY elected representatives travel between the West Bank/Gaza and by withholding finances to the LEGALLY elected Government of Palestine
"The moderate President Abbas talks in Arabic of a mass return to Israel proper."
Quote Abbas verbatim ... go ahead. If you can't you should withdraw your statement. I'm betting you'll do neither.
The Palestinian claim to RoR to Israel proper is under UNGA res 194 (1948) . People must have lived in the region of return (no lineal descendants) link to unispal.un.org
What memo does that send? The memo you send is .... you only have lies and nonsense
They have been talking shite about the occupation since 1967
Since 1948 actually link to mfa.gov.il
@ hophmi //"What matters is that the geographical region know as Palestine was inhabited, and that the people who inhabited it were entitled to self-determine in it.”//
"Those people are today Jews" Problem, actual statistics show us that Jews were outnumbered
"And they exercised their right to self-determination" Problem .. the Zionist movement did not originate in the region. " WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT "
Where is the promised constitution? In 65 years Israelis have never had a legally elected Government, under the required constitution. They were robbed of that right by the Zionist formed Jewish People's Council and Zionist Movement who became the Provisional Israeli Government. They were robbed of the right to live anywhere in Palestine by the Zionist Movement's demand for a Jewish state.
//“What is not right is that people of the Jewish faith from countries around the world decided that most – if not all – of that region belonged to them and that they had a right to cleanse the indigenous population from it and set up an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state in it.”//
" No one decided this." 1st Zionist Congress.... ever heard of it?
"The UN recognized their right to self-determination" .. within " frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947" The UN recognized the right to self determination of ALL people, then took it away from Palestinians by NOT consulting non-Jewish Palestinian citizens on the 1947 Partition Plan.
"One day, the Palestinians will get it = shoes on backwards arrogance. The UNSC tells us it is Israel in breach of International law, the UN Charter & relative conventions.
//“..The proper solution is to encourage Islamic states to transform into secular, democratic and egalitarian states...”//
"I’m not willing to push my people to be your experiment when you’re doing zero to encourage this kind of secularization anywhere else" Uh? Did you read the sentence you answered to?
//“The improper solution .. is to create an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist “Jewish State”.”//
"The improper solution is to have the Jews, and no one else, give up their rights "
No one here is advocating anyone give up any rights. EQUAL rights... ever heard of 'em?
Mike_Konrad "Judea and Samaria are the heart of historical Israel"
Historical. As of 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) the Jewish people's homeland state, Israel, is encompassed only ".. as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, " link to avalon.law.yale.edu
"The two-state solution is dead and I say good riddance."
Uh huh. So without ethnic cleansing of non-Jews, Israel as one state, will cease to be a Jewish majority.
"What Israel has to consider, now, is whether it wants to enfranchise the Arabs in Judea and Samaria, or pay them to leave.
Er no. The fat lady hasn't yet sung. Even in a one state solution, Israel must legally annex the non-Israeli territories by a referendum of or agreement with the legitimate citizens of the territory (sans illegal settlers) . Now Israel is obliged to adhere to the law per UNSC resolutions.
"Israel has a right to survive as a homeland for the Jewish people"
This yours ? "The two-state solution is dead and I say good riddance." without ethnic cleansing of non-Jews, Israel as one state, will cease to be a Jewish majority.
"It should offer equal rights to the Palestinians in the contested areas:
"contested areas" = weasel words that do not appear in any of the UNSC resolutions on the matter. They're "occupied"
"the world should NOT force a right of return for Palestinians outside Israel and Judea and Samaria"
Why not? Israel illegally claims over 50% of what remained of post May 15th 1948 Palestine link to wp.me Israel has never legally annexed ANY territory
@ Obsidian "Glubb was a lying swine"
There are no UNSC resolutions against any of the Arab States for the Invasion of Palestine, a declaration of which was submitted to the UN per UN Charter Chapt VII, signalling their intentions. link to wp.me ( To my knowledge, the last declaration of war ever submitted to the UNSC )
As Regional Powers they had a right to attempt to expel foreign forces from the Arab territory that remained after Israel declared its independence from Palestine.
@ DaBakr
"...... “we’ll get back some through negotiations and the rest of Palestine form the river to the sea will be ours very soon after”"
The Palestinians rightful territories were defined by default of the sovereign extent of the surrounding states. Palestinian territory extends from the Jordan to the Sea without including any Israeli territory. Israeli territory also extends from the Jordan to the Sea, without including any Palestinian territory illegally acquired by Israel. link to wp.me
"Does that count as double-speak -or just plain old fashioned lying?"
Neither
"Is referring to Israel as the “zionist entity” an Orwellian turn of phrase?"
Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel
" WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT"
link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org
"When the Palestinians refer to ‘Palestine’ and half the stupid europeans who actually believe they mean the other half of a 2ss when in reality they mean the entire western half of the original mandate?"
Speculation, yours and a favourite of Israeli propagandists
Abbas. In front of the world at the UN. He made the same offer again 2012 at the UN, in front of the world.
"Its not that I don’t think Israel has screwy policies for immigration its that I think if the charge that George Orwell would have “hated” Israel on any grounds other then anti-jewish that he would just have likely ‘hated’ Israels adversaries in the conflict."
Speculation can be fun eh! You can say anything!
NormanF "Every country has the right to control its borders. Nothing Orwellian about the practice"
When a country claims not to have any borders, yet there are ample Israeli Government statements link to wp.me confirming Israel's sovereign extent, it's very much Orwellian.
"If George Orwell were alive today, he’d point out that Israel is the only country in the world judged by a double standard."
Your hoary olde Hasbara doesn't float. In "territories occupied" Israel is acting outside its internationally recognized sovereign extent
UNSC res 252 has EIGHT reminders, all of which reaffirm or emphasize binding legal obligations Israel is required to adhere to.
If the power company issues a reminder when someone hasn't fulfilled their part of the contract, is it a double standard to be reminded, or a double standard to ignore one's legal obligations?
Light "Israel hasn’t ever declared its borders"
In 1934 the US ratified the 1933 Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States.
In order to recognize a state the US required:
May 15th 1948 the Israeli Government’s request for recognition stated:
Effective 00:01 May15th 1948 (ME time) .... the US recognized Israel as such at 00:13 May15th 1948 (ME time)
Confirmed by the Israeli Government May 22nd 1948 link to wp.me
UNGA resolution 181 is enshrined in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel link to mfa.gov.il
UNGA res 181 says
On the 31st Aug 1949, after being accepted into the UN, Israel made it’s first official claim to territories beyond the extent of its sovereign frontiers. link to unispal.un.org
Israel’s claim was rebuffed, citing the Armistice Agreements . link to domino.un.org
"Has the wish to see Israel undone killed off common sense altogether even in the minds of intelligent people?
The need to justify the Jewish state's illegal acquisition of non-Israeli territory has killed off common sense altogether even in the minds of otherwise intelligent people.
@ Kathleen link to talknic.files.wordpress.com
ivri "The figure used now is 7 million refugees" (referring to ' a homecoming of Palestinian refugees ')
The figure used by who? The Palestinian claim of RoR to what became the state of Israel on May 15th 1948, is based on UNGA res 194 of 1948 .. UNGA res 194 definition of a refugee link to unispal.un.org nothing about lineal descendants. One had to have lived in the area.
People with a RoR to what became Israel are now ALL over 65 yrs of age and number only a few thousand. They were ALL children in 1948, they fought no war, were not a part of any 1920's pogroms.
The 'million's figure fear mongering nonsense generated by Israeli propagandists and comes from the irrelevant 1949 UNRWA definition to ascertain who qualifies for assistance while they're a refugee. It does not extend to final status link to unrwa.org
Israel's actual sovereign extent does not include any non-Israeli territories acquired by the Jewish state by war, illegally annexed and/or illegally settled since declaring statehood May 15th 1948. The demographic threat is only in the non-Israeli territories Israel would like to keep.
Israel cannot now afford to adhere to the law. Under the law there'd be too many Israelis needing repatriation to Israel and billions of dollars owed the Palestinians in compensation. The Jewish state would be sent bankrupt.
It is Israel who must negotiate, plea bargain its way out of the illegal 'facts on the ground' hole it has dug for itself. Meanwhile, the Palestinians are under no legal obligation to forgo ANY of their rights or ANY of their rightful territory in negotiations. Israel is still obliged to the law, negotiations or not.
"...when the one thing Arab countries have in abundance is land "
It's not Palestinian land...
dimadok "Israeli Arab Judge, Salim Jubran, has been appointed to the head of Israel Central Election committee" (my bold)
That'd be an Israeli citizen, under Israeli civil law, which doesn't apply to "territories occupied"
In "territories occupied" Israeli civil law has no legal jurisdiction, Israel's illegal civil policies are not dissimilar to apartheid.
Propagandists do not care! As long as their BS is out there being propagated.
Don
"maybe I am missing something…
glasses ?
link to youtu.be
Kerry in perspective.
link to wp.me