Commenter Profile

Total number of comments: 5004 (since 2010-02-26 10:49:56)

An old Jewish guy in Oz. Tired of the fallacies surrounding the I/P issue. We were given the territory for a homeland state, with more than enough room for every Jewish person on the planet. Even today. Since declaration, Israel has illegally acquired more and more territory outside of it's actual proclaimed and recognized Sovereign boundaries and it encourages Israeli civilians to break laws that were adopted in large part because of the treatment of our Jewish fellows under the Nazis. All I ask is that Israel adhere to the law, under which it can easily protect itself, grow and prosper. The Palestinians ask for their legal rights under the Laws all states are obliged to uphold. Israel demands more and more non-Israeli land. I've received too many threats for opposing Israel's policies towards the Palestinians, broken windows, graffiti'd walls, hate mail, I'd prefer to remain anonymous, if that's OK. Who I am is irrelevant. It's the information that counts. :-)


Showing comments 5004 - 5001

  • Emails show Missouri museum canceled 'Ferguson to Palestine' event under pressure from Jewish group
    • @ Steve Grover "Principled"

      acting in accordance with morality and showing recognition of right and wrong
      synonyms: moral, ethical, good, virtuous, righteous, upright, upstanding, high-minded, right-minded, proper, correct, honourable, honest, just, noble, incorruptible, anti-corruption, scrupulous, conscientious, respectable, decent

      What principle is there in stifling open dialogue?

  • World Water Day protest targets Massachusetts-Israel Water Partnership
    • @ Herb Glatter "Perhaps it’s time to boycott water"

      Interesting theory.... How does one boycott water?

    • @ Herb Glatter
      "So Jews are “steali....." No Herb, Israel is!

      " So " Israel is " “stealing” yet they build desalination plants for Israel and now in the largest plant in the Western Hemisphere for drought-stricken Southern California that incenses you?"

      No Herb, just the stealing part.

      Two fails Herb. Keep up the good work

  • Bill Maher justifies Netanyahu's racism by saying U.S. has done much worse
  • Zochrot and BADIL bring Nakba to U.S. audience
    • Giles March 23, 2015, 7:25 am "The war by the international Jewish leadership on Ger ... etc ..."

      Methinks evidence is necessary for any such assertions

  • 'Do US Jews need a Jewish state for our safety?' debate begins in wake of Netanyahu victory
    • @ TwoRedDogs agreed ... however "Do Greeks-Americans, Italian, Irish, Armenian, German-Americans" the Muslim-Americans from various countries "etc., sleep better knowing they have a state to run to if need be?"

      They don't have a state to run to unless they hold dual citizenship.

    • Of course they do. What if the US suddenly heeds the Israeli apologists call for the US to give back all that territory to Texas, Hawaii, Alaska, (despite the fact that they were all legally annexed with the agreement of their inhabitants) or, return the bulk of the USA to the American Indians?

      Same for Australia and Israel's apologists calls to return the land to the Aboriginals.

      We'd all be clamoring to go live in Israel, a state that illegally annexes, illegally settles, illegally dispossesses, is continually at war because it continues to occupy other folks territo ...

      Hey wait a minute ... I just noticed ... there's something weird

  • A response to Michael Douglas
    • Ditto. It's a pleasure to be a part of a thoughtfull and honest community

    • "Along the same lines, could you please tell us your qualifications with respect to International Law."

      I can read what is written.

      Andrew Kent omits and fabricates. His article conveniently forgets to mention one crucial fact. All civilians have a right to flee the violence of war and all civilians have a right to return to their homes simply because they're civilians!

      "the Article concludes ... that international law did not provide a right of return"

      UNGA res 194 tells us Andrew Kent is a f*(&ing idiot.

      11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible; link to

      The UNGA res 194 definition of a refugee is here BTW

      Andrew Kent then goes on to spout the usual Hasbara nonsense "1. INTRODUCTION
      The two-year war which gave birth to Israel ..."

      Strange. Israel was proclaimed independent effective 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time). "the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression, and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law. The Act of Independence will become effective at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time" link to

      There was no two year war of independence. The '48/49 war was fought by the already independent State of Israel in and over non-Israeli territories the Israeli Government itself claimed on the 22nd May 1948 were "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine". None of the UNSC resolutions on the Question of Palestine call for peace in Israel. They all call for "peace in Palestine".

      "... also made refugees of approximately 600,000 to 760,000 Palestinian Arabs."

      A) The UN gives a more exacting figure ".. refugees from Israel- controlled territory amount to approximately 711,000"

      B) Never the less, poor Andrew steps in ziopoop again. They were not all Palestinian Arabs, some 482,000 ( " In addition to roughly 600,000 Jews, 350,000 Arabs resided in the Jewish state created by partition. Approximately 92,000 Arabs lived in Tiberias, Safed, Haifa and Bet Shean, and another 40,000 were Bedouin ") were, according to the Israeli Declaration of Statehood itself non-Jewish Israelis

      By the signing of the Armistice Agreements in 1949, there were only about 20% non-Jewish Israelis remaining in Israel. (150,000 or so)

      Simple maths tells us of the 711,000 non-Jewish refugees, approximately 332,000 non-Jewish Israelis were dispossessed from Israel by Israel and some 379,000 Palestinians were dispossessed from territories "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine" by Israel.

    • M Douglas is an actor, he has no other qualification that I know of that warrants publication of his ill formed opinion.

      It’s true the charge of apartheid within Israel’s pre-1967 borders is debatable since all Israeli citizens, both Jews and Palestinians, have civil rights, including the right to vote.

      This sentence shows us just how ingrained the Zionist narrative has become.

      A) The non-Jewish Israeli citizens dispossessed in 1948/49 and subsequently refused RoR have been effectively stripped of all civil rights by Israel.
      B) "Israel’s pre-1967 borders" are a nonsensical weasel words. Israel's proclaimed and recognized borders have never been altered by any legal mechanism link to
      C) "both Jews and Palestinians" more nonsensical weasel words used to divert attention away from the apartheid policies of the JEWISH state. Israel was declared independent of Palestine. There are no Palestinians who're citizens of Israel. It's Jews and non-Jews.

  • Netanyahu's honesty towards Palestinians casts unwelcome light on American Jewish leadership
    • @ JeffB "The UN unequivocally ordered the factions in Yemen to stop fighting"

      A) Unless it's a Chapter VII resolution, it can only be a recommendation

      B) Yemenis are fighting in Yemen. The UN cannot intervene

      C) For 67 years Israel has been fighting in and over territories "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine". Sans a veto vote in the UNSC on VII resolutions, the UN not only can intervene, it is obliged to intervene. So too can Regional Powers as the Arab states did in 1948, for which there was no UNSC condemnation even though Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Egypt were UN Members at the time.

      " How does this not conflict your theory of the UN’s divinity?"

      Uh? You're inventing theories for me. WOW! Thanks. But no thanks! I'd rather support an Israel adhering to its self determined obligations. After all it was Israel's choice to join the UN, Israel's choice to be obliged to International Law. It's failure to live up to its self imposed and noble obligations and aspirations is a huge disappointment.

      I realize you're not a big believer in International Law, neither was that crummy schmuck Hitler. Oh well, we all choose the company we keep

    • Digging yourself a deeper hole JeffB?

      What is it about " I doubt Jacobs’s Israeli colleagues include" you can't comprehend?

    • @ JeffB "To put that in American terms, what sanctions would you propose to hit the USA with that if you so desired would get it to abandon California, New Mexico… and the other territories acquired from Mexico?"

      UH? Why are apologists for Israeli intransigence so ill informed?

      The US legally annexed the territories you mention by agreement with their legitimate inhabitants, same Hawaii by an agreement and even Alaska by an agreement with the RUSSIAN citizens inhabiting it, long after it was bought. (what the US actually bought from Russia was the right to annex) By adopting that legal custom to acquire territory, the US was instrumental in that legal custom eventually passing into Customary International Law.

      " What sanctions to your propose that will get Israel to give up the homes of about 10% of the their population and counting Area-C as about 1/7th of the country, a 1/7th of the real estate"

      The loss of the US UNSC veto vote should do the trick

      BTW Israel .. real estate? States have territory. Your "1/7th" isn't Israeli territory. Israel is legally required to withdraw from all non-Israeli territory. Israeli citizens can opt to go too or remain and become Palestinian citizens. Where's the problem? They'd be doing something they can't legally do as Israelis. Live anywhere in the Jewish People's historic homeland in Palestine!

      "If you want a reasonable goal like more colleges or civilian not military courts then you can talk pressure but otherwise you are just asking the impossibl"

      Nazi Germany was far nastier, far more militaristic than Israel. I'll bet Hitler thought it impossible Germany would be defeated.

      BTW your 1/7th is bullsh*te! link to

    • “It’s time for Jewish leaders to tell us – without apology – where they stand.”

      Up to their necks in elephant poop

    • @ JeffB "They don’t. They aren’t his colleagues. His colleagues are rabbis. Amira Hass, Gideon Levi and Ilan Pappe did not graduate Hebrew Union College and don’t have semikhah"

      I guess that's why M Ellis wrote " I doubt Jacobs’s Israeli colleagues include Israeli dissidents like Amira Hass, Gideon Levi and Ilan Pappe. "

      To put it politely Israel's apologists really are quite ... how can I say this ... inept!

  • Netanyahu's victory marks the end of the two-state solution
  • New York Times published piece about Netanyahu’s racism, then rewrote all of it
    • Most worthy news services publish a retraction or similar when they change an article.

      The NYT is a slimy pro-Israel propaganda front

      Original link to (

      The original version is "By ISABEL KERSHNER and RICK GLADSTONE" -- Isabel Kershner reported from Jerusalem, and Rick Gladstone from New York. Gabby Sobelman contributed reporting from Jerusalem, and Robert Mackey from New York.

      link to
      The second version is "By Jodi Rudoren " -- Jodi Rudoren contributed reporting from Tel Aviv, Diaa Hadid from Nazareth, Israel, and Michael D. Shear from Washington

      It isn't the first time the muck bucket has left a trail littered with evidence of its duplicity link to

  • Oberlin students highlight plight of Palestinian political prisoners with week-long installation
    • @ Hady " .. when you say Oberlin Ohio is not under Occupation, this is not accurate"

      America's indigenous peoples have full citizenship and the right to vote.

      "It is like an Israel saying that Tel Aviv is not under Occupation"

      Tel Aviv is within the boundaries proclaimed by the Israeli government and recognized as Israeli link to

    • @ hophmi
      "They should be more honest. They should throw the rocks at passersby and see whether they get arrested"

      You should be more honest hophmi. Oberlin, Ohio is not under occupation. There are no IDF passing by.

      Why is it hophmi and co insist on jumping feet first into their mouths?

  • The farewell party of the mezuzah-kissers
    • Jackdaw would accept a hub cap from his own car in return for the thief keeping the rest.

      Israel's generous deals involved Israel swapping non-Israeli territory with the Palestinians for non-Israeli territory so Israel can keep non-Israeli territory. IOW Israel offered NO THING!

      Furthermore none of Israel's demands have any legal basis. There is no law obliging the Palestinians to recognize Israel or any other entity. The UN has UN Members who do not recognize each other.

      There is no law obliging Palestine to dis arm, in fact the UN Charter says all states have equal right to self defense.

      There is no legal basis for Israel claiming non-Israeli territory for defense, the UN Charter tells us all states are equal. International Law tells us it's inadmissible to acquire territory by war and UNSC resolutions reaffirming and emphasizing the UN Charter and International Law show us that unilateral annexation is illegal

      There is no legal basis for not ending the occupation and there is no legal basis for illegally settling Israeli citizens in non-Israeli territory.

      There is no legal, moral or logical reason why the Palestinians should forgo any of their legal rights and there is no legal, moral or logical reason why Israel should not be held to the law.

    • Incriminating himself in a war crime. The man is a blithering idiot!

  • Sheldon Adelson is not the problem
    • @ seafoid "You should have put a STFU in there"

      LOL sometimes it's necessary to self moderate :-)

      +10 re bad faith. It seems to be a pre-requisite to the Zionist colonization project. Lock them in a room together and they'd be rid of themselves in a flash

    • @ catalan " I am sorry for making the grammar comment. In hindsight, it was unnecessarily harsh. It was a mean and arrogant..." and false in that instance.

      Please address the topic or content of my post

    • @ catalan "Unlike talknic I don’t claim expertise in international law. "

      Odd, I've never made such a claim.

      BTW my grammar isn't the topic

    • @ pjdude " talknic believes Israel’s conquering inside the partian lines is legal i don’t"

      Not quite. The razing of homes, villages and the dispossession of non-Jewish Israelis within partition boundaries prior to (or after) 00:01 May 14th 1948 (ME time) had absolutely no legal basis what so ever.

    • @ catalan "Talknic has an obsession with the borders proposed under the Partition Plan"

      It's essential information necessary for people to understand the basis on which hundreds of UN/UNSC resolutions are adopted reminding Israel of the obligation to adhere to the Laws, Charter and conventions they re-affirm and emphasize.

      "Yet the UN, the Arab League, Hamas, Fatah, and even Iran have indicated that they would accept a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders, assuming the other issues are resolved as well. I just fail to understand why the partition plan needs to be discussed any more"

      Knowing where Israel's actual borders are undermines the wholly holey Hasbara, dispelling the Zionist myths, the nonsense about UN bias against Israel and the nonsense about Israel's 'generous' offers

      Israel's actual borders are the basis of hundreds of UN/UNSC resolutions giving Israel hundreds of opportunities to adhere to the law and that far from being biased against Israel, the UN has in fact been incredibly lenient. No other UN Member has been in breach of so many of their legal obligations for so long. No other UN Member state has missed so many opportunities

    • To clarify. I'm an Australian. English is my primary language.

      When I was a kid, I'd get the apostrophe thing wrong all the time. It still happens now and then. BTW I appreciate folk pointing it out ..... when it's actually an issue.

      Were I perfect of course I'd've gotten all them ol' apostrophes under control by now. But I'm not perfect so I ain't. But hey, I'm not dead yet, so where earlier I mightn't've, there's still a chance I might.

    • @ catalan " you, presumably a native speaker of the English language, clearly do not know the rules for using contractions and apostrophes (it’s vs its). Yet you wish to be heard on international law. Learn grammar first:)

      Strange. No where in the post do I intend to say "it is". Please scan the post again. It's still there.

    • Adelson ain't the problem. He has money.

      The problem is Israel DOESN'T have the money and has never had the money to be able to afford to adhere to the law once broken by having disowned its own citizens, exceeded its borders even as they were being proclaimed to the world for recognition and having dispossessed non-Jews from the remainder of Palestine, outside the State of Israel.

      Now after 67 years of illegal facts on the ground, the cost of Israel adhering to its borders as required by law, relocating Israelis back into Israel, facing their inevitable class actions for having been deceived into thinking they had a right to settle in non-Israeli territories and paying rightful compensation to the Palestinians for their razed homes and villages and their hardship is simply astronomical, far beyond the Adelsons of the world.

      Israel's leaders have never intended to adhere to the law and they haven't.

  • Separating anti-Semitism from anti-Zionism
    • @ JustJessetr
      "It’s no fantasy"

      Whatever fantasies you need to have

      " I just reprinted Phil’s article and passed it around, and even showed the Comments section up on the big screen. Thank you all for being so open and honest in your calls for Israel’s destruction and your naked hatredsr"

      There are no calls for Israel's destruction.

      " Makes my job a LOT easier"

      Writing bullsh*t is your job? WOW! You must be very proud.

    • @ JustJessetr March 18, 2015, 11:03 pm

      I understand your need to write such fantasies

    • @ Mayhem " So many ‘anti-Zionists’ who get manically enraged pointing their crooked little fingers in the direction of Israel are white/middle class/privileged people apparently from the ‘left’."

      A ) Where else should one point where the Zionist colonization of Palestine is concerned? Greenland? B) No one on the 'right' believes in adhering to the law, the UN Charter or adhering to one's own borders ... AMAZING!

      "They chant in unison with Islamists who have re-invented the slogans of anti-semitism"

      Cute accusation, no evidence tho. Care to give an example ... thx ... I'll wait

      Speaking of convenient myths deliberately ignoring the underlying facts and becoming a means of feeling smug about yourself as a human being link to

    • @ Mayhem "No need to make any mention of the Holocaust as Sydney University professor demonstrates the insidious anti-semitism "

      Threatening to sue someone who has assaulted you is Antisemitic. WOW!! That's amazing.

      Last time Israel's false accusers took Jake Lynch to court they lost

      "When anti-Zionism is pursued to the neglect of other concerns that are true examples of criminal assaults on the freedom and integrity of other people like Russia in Ukraine, China in Tibet, Sudan or Sri-Lanka..."

      When are you protesting next? I'll keep an eye out for you

      Say are they the same Russia link to
      China link to
      Sudan link to
      Sri Lanka link to

  • In support of a just sentence for Rasmea Odeh
  • UC Berkeley Israel group wants to ban imaginary word rhyming with intifada as 'triggering, terrifying'
    • @ JeffB "18th century Virginia was worse than Israel. Israel is not running a massive Palestinian farm to ship hundreds of thousands to die in whatever the the 21st century equivalent of the West would be. That being said, one can value Virginia while still deploring slavery. Slavery was an aspect of Virginia, slavery doesn’t exist today but Virginia still does"

      "was worse" are the operative words JeffB. Israel is still occupying, illegally annexing and illegally settling non-Israeli territory and dispossessing its rightful inhabitants.

    • @ JeffB "We had 2 years ago an ethnic cleansing a few years ago where the Bodos in India kicked out the Bengali-speaking Muslims some of whom had been their for centuries ... a million people displaced in the last few years from the countries that used to be part of the French Equatorial Africa ... Burma has conducted ethnic cleansings ... that’s not including groups like ISIS or Iran/Shia groups whom the USA opposed ... There is nothing unusual about Israel’s behavior even temporally."

      Uh huh. Nice company Israel keeps and a cute exercise unsuccessfully attempting to show many wrongs make a right. Bravo!

      "I don’t see college campus protests about it"

      Surely some in Israel?!? ... Not even a lonely JeffB with a placard on a windswept street corner?!? ... why not?

      " As we’ve talked about before, state formation is a messy business in the 20th and 21st century just as much as in the 16th, 12th, 8th, 3rd… Humans are born in blood, human societies are born in blood"

      Israel was formed 67 years ago. Even as it was proclaimed as "an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947" there were Jewish forces in territories not proclaimed as Israel.

      More than half a century later Israel still has forces in territories the Israeli Government claimed were "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine"

      " The praise that Israel receives is because it objectively is a great country."

      The criticism isn't because it's a great country, it's because it's been occupying territories "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine" for over half a century

      " The Jews came to the poverty stricken, malaria infesthed shithole that was Palestine"
      Uh huh. Was that the land of milk and honey shithole link to that some Jews had lived in prior to the Zionist Colonization program began in earnest circa 1897

      "and in 100 years with constant opposition from the natives they’ve created a first world country there with a living standard on par with European countries"

      Amazing! But completely irrelevant to Israel's actual sovereign extent and its illegal actions in territories "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine"

      "They came to revive the glory that was Judaea"

      Judaea is in territories "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine"

      " has instead in a century have far surpassed anything the Herodians could have dreamed of."

      So have hundreds of other countries

      "They’ve solved the Jewish question that has tormented Europe for a millennia and built a home for virtually the entirety of Mizrahim."

      Pity they've built a lot of it in territories "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine"

      "For decades Israel and Egypt (a country with a population of 80m) have been keeping pace with each other in terms of strength of military and size of the economy. Israel has lately broken away and the Israeli economy is approaching Iran’s. Israel’s military already exceeds Iran’s. Israel’s cultural output is approaching parity with Iran’s. All while Israel’s population is the size of Tehran’s"

      Amazing! But, so what? It doesn't alter the fact that for 67 years, Israel has had its military in territories "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine" Had Israel kept to its borders, it's highly likely it would only need half it's military and would have saved more than half a century of military expenses incurred in illegally acquiring, attempting to keep and illegally settling in non-Israeli territories "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine"

    • @ eGuard "(oh and next time, do prove anti-Semitism instead of just mentioning it)"

      @ hophmi "No one will ever be able to prove that to someone like you"

      You're so right there Hophmi. As a matter of fact, without any evidence for Antisemitism no one's gonna be able to prove it to anyone, except perhaps yourself and others like you who only need accusations as evidence. Not that they are, even if they are backed up by ....... more accusations.

    • JeffB March 12, 2015, 8:54 pm

      Wonderful. Now, about Israel illegally acquiring, illegally annexing, illegally settling in non-Israeli territory and illegally dispossessing non-Jews along the way ...

    • Did someone say "a lipsticked pig and a sacred cow. Either will do for their banquet"

      Only got lipstick for a pig ... sorry

  • The Nakba Day denial
  • Two-state-solution is at last disputed in Israeli elections (though not 'nation state of the Jewish people')
    • @ Mikhael " If Israel would strip citizenship from its non-Jewish citizens and the attendant full and equal rights they enjoy as Israeli citizens and then tell them that they were citizens of the PA while denying the PA any meaningful attributes of sovereignty, then perhaps the analogy might have some validity"

      Israel has stripped non-Jewish Israelis of their rights you stupid stupid person. Non-Jews who have a right to return to Israel (as proclaimed by the Israeli govt 15th May 1948 link to ) are Israeli citizens link to

      " I support something close to the 1949 Armistice Lines that were signed into existence between Israel and Jordan (erroneously referred to as the pre-June 1967 borders) with large post-1967 Israeli settlement blocs being annexed to Israel "

      Care to explain why anything should be annexed to Israel? Especially as Israel has no legal right to claim any territories beyond its proclaimed and recognized borders.

      "Most of Jerusalem, as well, should remain under Israeli sovereignty"

      Again, why? Israel has no legal right to claim any territories beyond its proclaimed and recognized borders.

      " The “borders” that existed prior to June 1967 were mere armistice lines between two belligerent states at the end of hostilities"

      Strange, the Israeli Government proclaimed Israel's boundaries effective at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) and was subsequently recognized as such (ibid)

      "Has the Palestinians shown more flexibility .... etc .... "

      Odd. It is ONLY Israel who has its military forces beyond its proclaimed and recognized boundaries and refuses to withdraw to its own territories. ONLY Israel refuses to allow the return of its own non-Jewish citizens. ONLY Israel illegally occupies and illegally claims territories beyond its boundaries. The Palestinians have long ago shown their willingness to forgo 78% of their rightful territory for peace with Israel. Israel has offered nothing, ever

      ...nonsensical, impossible demands like the return of “refugees”"

      Non-Jewish Israeli citizens have every right to return to Israel. It is neither impossible or nonsensical.

      ... they might have had their state in something close to those borders
      several years ago, now we will be stuck with more intransigent leadership from both sides for a while more"

      Your fantasies are cute. Israeli forces have been in territories that the Israeli Government on May the 22nd 1948 claimed were "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine" for 67 years

      Your drivel doesn't pass scrutiny

    • Ah ... the wonders of brain washing. One of those Hasbara habits, so ingrained you didn't even know you were doing it.

    • @ just "Is he ..... all of the above"

      Yes ... and a propagandist or a fool. Though I doubt anyone purposefully makes a fool of themselves

    • @ jon s "One of the four components of the Joint List is the Islamist Movement"

      Thanks for the 'explanation' . Are you trying to rename the Islamic Movement for some particular reason?

    • @ Misterioso You'll find that Israel did indeed proclaim its borders in order to be recognized and that's exactly how the US, Russia, Australia, the UK etc recognized Israel link to there you'll find links to indisputable documents

      BTW Purposefully not mentioning borders in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel only means they purposefully didn't mention the borders.

    • jon s "Unfortunately , inside the Joint List , Balad and the Islamists .... "

      The "Islamists" ? Care to clarify.... thx

  • Palestinian leaders vote to end security coordination with Israel, a cornerstone of Oslo and the occupation
    • @ Hostage "Palestine was more than adequately represented in that case by James Crawford, who was still the Whewell Professor of International Law at the University of Cambridge. These days he is serving as a Judge of the International Court of Justice"

      A point that will no doubt be leapt upon with glee link to

    • @ Accentitude

      These " "$$$ going to the elite Palestinian “leaders'” Swiss Bank accounts.." ... evidence being what exactly?

    • @ DoubleStandard
      "I only read this briefly,"

      Uh huh. Only as much as you're allowed?

      "but you should mention that security coordination continues despite this vote "

      Uh huh. I wonder what this means then "Palestinian leaders left open the possibility that security coordination could continue so long as Israel enforces all “signed agreements” with the Palestinians ?

  • Netanyahu's consciousness-raising
    • @ DaBakr "Once Pyongyang was ready to come out as a nuclear power, it threw out the nuclear inspectors, opened the sealed nuclear sites, vacated its signature on the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and began testing nuclear bombs"

      What does it have to do with the US negotiations?

      When Israel disregards it's signed obligations whose fault is it?

  • Do not let this opportunity for peace with Iran pass
    • @ DaBakr " the idea that a rag-tag poor and motley group of militants, could take over large swaths of Iraq, Syria, Northern Africa…..” makes Nader appear as the ostrich with his head in the sand"

      Pull your head out of your rrrrrrs and get back to us when they've won the peace.

      "Thats the problem with making deals with totalitarian dictatorships. "

      Better tell your pal, pal.

      link to

      link to

      " No level of assurance a deal won’t be simply scrapped once things are too far gone to take back"

      You're right here buster

      link to and link to AND hundreds of UNSC resolutions for having been in breach of International Law and UN Charter with it's illegal facts on the ground

      Oh BTW What evidence do you have the Iranians want or are attempting to acquire nuclear weapons? Remember accusations, backed by more accusations, despite being made by the Jewish state politicians, are not evidence.

    • @ DaBakr " explain again how Israel went from controlling the entire Sinai , half of the Lebanon, all of Gaza and yet still is an “expansionist” state."

      Explaining anything to someone who's not interested seems rather pointless. However other folk might well learn and become better informed, so thanks for asking the question pal. You really know how to do your cause a dis-service. Congratulations.

      Israel illegally annexed East Jerusalem according to UNSC res 252 and its EIGHT reminders of binding Law and the UN Charter (also binding in its entirety).
      Illegally claimed and settled non-Israeli territories held under occupation since 1948/49 and in territories held under occupation since 1967. None of the territories in red on the map have ever been legally acquired by Israel by any agreement (the acquisition of territory by force was prohibited by at least 1933)

      You can prove me wrong simply by showing when the above territories were legally annexed to Israel by agreement. Date & signatories. Thx I'll wait ....

      "Palikari makes statements and doesn’t return to engage "

      Uh huh. You'll be back with the information I requested above .... right?

    • And wait . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    • And wait . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    • And wait . . . . . . . .

    • @ Palikari
      "Iran does not want peace, but the nuclear bomb."

      Evidence? Thx I'll wait .....

    • Everyone seems to be looking in the wrong direction, again. Looking for evidence or lack of evidence for WMD's

      Iran and its neighbours are advertising for tenders and contracting with each other for the construction of a huge electrical power grid. link to

      The US and Israel are afraid Iran's nuclear energy program and the grid extending to all parts of the region, west into Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and south into Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Africa and north and east will make it a hugely powerful and central player in a union of states held together by their own investment in the grid.

      The US and Israel cannot and will not tell you this for obvious reasons.

  • In praise of Mr. Netanyahu’s political theater
  • Israel tells Gaza woman she must coordinate wedding date with Israeli army
  • Israeli soldiers set attack dogs on teen -- 'Bite him' -- and rightwing politician cheers
    • Mmmm an armed settler. Valid military target. IDF didn't arrest him. Will that be investigated? If not add illegal settler and soldiers and commanders to the ICC list

  • Factchecking Netanyahu: An annotated guide to the Israeli P.M.'s speech to Congress
    • By the way ... maybe even a little off topic ... some of us just can't tell OT from OT without a twist of lemon

      What better source than the horse

      Netanyahu is surely completely insane.

      The IEAE have known from the outset the Hall in Nataz was to house 500,000 centrifuges. link to

      The IAEA know, because they've observed and advised since the design stages. That's one of the advantages of being in the IAEA. They help build nuclear stuff for peaceful purposes. Israel takes advantage of it despite not being a signatory to the NPT

    • Netanyahu's private thoughts 101

      The Iranians have said they don't want nukes, there's no evidence they are working towards nukes, so if they don't get nukes, it's because of me, Bibi Netanyahu, savior of the entire world and leader of the Jews! Of course we'll still need to invade Iran Iran must still be invaded to prove they don't have nukes, because even if they don't have nukes they might have nukes.

    • I want to see and hear Obama's next appearance. Who coaches him? Wonder if speech writers get overtime? They'll be busy. Or is it an algorythm alegorythm now a days?

      How about "Let's face it America, we're not gonna let some Israeli bullshit artist tell us how to run the the world's most powerful nation!"

      "No, no Mr President, we can't say that!

      "What do you mean "we"?"

      "Well you can if you wish Sir, but we can't. "

      "Why not, it's true isn't it?"

      "Yes but we can't say it, as a matter of fact we didn't just say it was."

      "Yes you did, I heard you!"

      "Yes, you did sir, but we didn't say it sir."

      "Well I'm gonna say it!"

      "OK guys wrap it up ... let's go next door and work on the you know what. Maybe we could just change Lincoln or Kennedy to Oba . . . . . . . . . . "

  • Pelosi blasts Netanyahu speech as 'insult to intelligence of U.S.', Amanpour calls it 'dark, Strangelovian'
  • Why Iran is not and has never been Israel’s #1 enemy
  • West Bank settlers build Star of David out of rocks to prevent Palestinian farmers from using land
    • DaBakr March 2, 2015, 10:36 pm

      Do you really think the illegal Israeli Jewish settlers would allow that to remain on someone else's land they covet?

      'scuse the correction, necessary given that coveting other folk's property is against the basic tenets of Judaism. Makes one wonder how people like that qualify for Israeli citizenship

  • Netanyahu's speech and the American Jewish condition
    • WOW!! I wouldn't be seen dead wearing a bosom!

    • @ steven l "Zionism means ONLY a country for Jews which was promised by G-D as Eretz Israel which as you might know included in the initial Balfour declaration, trans-Jordania"

      Now that is amazing ... this G-D is the same one who didn't bother to show up for the Holocaust ?

      "If one does not believe in the rights of Jews, then Christians and Muslims have no rights either. This goes also of course for the seculars."

      Jews have rights. But Israelis, even non-Jewish ones don't have any right to illegally settle in non-Israeli territories that have been held under Israeli military occupation since 1948 and 1967 link to nor does Israel have any legal right to any of those territories

      "Are we all equal or some are more equal than others?"

      The cop out G-d who gives away land to a tiny minority seems to think some are far more equal than others . I wonder who invented such a G-D

      "As far as lobby is concerned, the Muslim (Shias & Sunnis) lobby is far more richer ($) and more powerful than the IL lobby. The Arab lobby has corrupted the whole political and academic world"

      An example of this alleged corruption would be nice .. thx

      " All this was achieved thanks to the dear notion of “American greed” in politics and academia. It is all about greed rather than spirituality"

      Uh huh. Can you explain why the US who recognized Israel as Israel asked to be recognized, by its proclaimed borders link to and; who refuses to relocate its embassy to Jerusalem, (Jerusalem is not Israeli link to ) , continually vetoes UNSC resolutions against Israel

    • @ steven l "In the past 65 years, the only counter-offer from the opposite side has been NO, NO and NO"

      Uh huh link to

      I guess you've never read the Egypt/Israel Peace Treaty? Israel agreed to withdraw from all territories sovereign to Egypt after which peaceful relations were assumed. Jordan similar. Withdraw from other folk's territory and bingo ... peace! Seems quite logical and simple. No negotiations, simply get out of other folks territory

      Israel has yet to withdraw as required by UNSC res 242 and subsequent UNSC resolutions, showing BTW that 242 means ALL the territories occupied in '67 including Jerusalem BTW

      1) No talks. Why should anyone talk to a state in breach of its own borders and of International Law? It Isn't illegal to not talk to a thieving neighbour.

      It is illegal to acquire territory by war. It is illegal to unilaterally annex. It is illegal to settle ones citizens in territories one occupies. It is illegal to forbid your own citizens return to their country

      2) No Negotiations. The Egyptians didn't negotiate anything except how Israel would withdraw. Negotiations only mean the thief wants some of what they have stolen. It isn't illegal to refuse to negotiate with a thieving neighbour so they can keep what they've stolen.

      It is illegal to acquire territory by war. It is illegal to unilaterally annex. It is illegal to settle ones citizens in territories one occupies. It is illegal to forbid your own citizens return to their country

      3) No recognition. There is no legal obligation on any state to recognize any other state. In fact there are UN Member states who do not recognize each other. It isn't illegal to not recognize a state, even if it 's Israel.

      It is illegal to acquire territory by war. It is illegal to unilaterally annex. It is illegal to settle ones citizens in territories one occupies. It is illegal to forbid your own citizens return to their country

      "Can you cite one offer of true peace as a starting point for discussion from the Palestinian side?"

      Hundreds saying in effect 'get out of non-Israeli territory' Then there's Abbas at the UN in front of the world, twice offering 78% of the Palestinians rightful territories for peace with Israel.

      Israel's reply was to build more illegal settlements. Israel has offered only to swap non-Israeli territory for non-Israeli territory so Israel can keep non- Israeli territory.

      There is no legal, moral, ethical, logical, in fact there's no valid reason at all why anyone should negotiate away what they have a right to under the law, so Israel can keep what it is NOT legally entitled to under the law and to save Israel from the consequences of the law by for creating 67yrs of illegal 'facts on the ground'

      "European antisemitism is compounded with Islamic antisemitism and is spreading to the USA faster than U think"

      WOW!! Been any cries for evacuation. Homeless because entire neighbourhoods have been bombed?

      Say why don't you go kvetch to the Zionist Federation for demanding a separate state instead of accepting a deal where Jews could legally immigrate and achieve citizenship and buy land and settle anywhere in the Jewish People's Historical Homeland link to Talk about missed opportunities. The Zionist Federation and the Jewish Agency have screwed every opportunity for Jewish folk. link to

    • @ hophmi
      "So Annie, you believe Jews have too much power and you resent it"

      an accusation without evidence.

      Say .... way dam inut .... isn't bearing false witness against the Jewish faith. tch tch tch for the Jewish state hophmi breaks the most basic of Jewish tenets. Wad a guy! Mus' be very proud!

    • "is that a question or a statement hops?"

      It's an accusation

    • Were it not for the US UNSC veto vote, Israel would have been a failed state long ago, taking with it billions in investments. That's the fear

      From the moment its borders were proclaimed effective, Israel has never been able afford the legal consequences of having broken the law by dispossessing its non-Jewish citizens and illegally claiming and settling territories it conquered and held under occupation by 1949 and the territories it conquered in '67 and holds under occupation today.

      The fear of another Holocaust, existential threats etc are the 'look every but techniques' used by propagandists, magicians and charlatans to garner support

  • Oxfam says Gaza reconstruction will take a century to complete due to Israeli blockade
    • @ JustJessetr
      "Israel alone is not the driver of Palestinian suffering. Centuries of Western and Eastern empire building, tribalism, clan warfare, oil, colonialism, to name a few, embroil the entire region. "

      Uh huh! At the moment though, no one else is occupying Palestinian territories. It is "Israel, the Occupying Power" in "flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War " and a "serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East "

  • The Emperor's Nuke Clothes
  • Forensic expert says Israeli forces killing of 19-year-old Palestinian 'similar to an execution'
  • Israel turns off power to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in the dead of winter
    • @ Hezakiah "Their power was out a whole 45 minutes,huh? That’s just brutal since the last storm we lost power here in the Philly area,we were without power for a whole 7 hours and that was nothing too"

      WOW!!! A storm huh. Was the storm on purpose or by an Occupying Power who is supposed to make up the shortfall in of essentials in occupied territories it is supposed to protect?

      As you're obviously an honest straight shootin' guy Hezakiah, I'm sure you'll answer my inquiries honestly ... right? (providing Annie sees its fit to publish your replies. Maybe she can 'bleep' out anything in-appropriate )

      1) Many flattened apartment blocks, homes without walls or a roof in the Philly area?

      2) Much damage from the last time the occupying power invaded?

      3) Are there some 65,000 homeless living under canvas, a sheet of iron, cardboard link to ?

      4) Many places like this in Philly link to ??

      5) Are 70% of homes uninhabitable in Philly?

      "While you [….] whine for people that are traeted like garabge by the ones they elected"

      They elected the Israeli Government? WOW!! It's Israel who prevents adequate rebuilding materials entering Gaza. (don't bother with the Hamas should stop building tunnels schtick pal, there's only photos of one concrete lined tunnel. It was never used and it could have even been built by the IDF judging from where it ended! Or was it started?)

      "let’s see what you say about right here in America where the power company shuts the juice off whenever they want and DON’T turn it back on 45 minutes later as a “warning ” Local
      Vietnam Vet Dies Of Hypothermia After Heat Shut Off To Home"

      Here's what I say ... US war veterans are "traeted like garabge" by the US and only a sick and twisted scumbag would hold this poor fellows death up in order to justify Israel's atrocities.

    • @ assaf.d "I am from israel"

      Where in Israel? Remembering that Israeli sovereignty has never included any territories it has acquired by war or any other illegal means since May 15th 1948 00:01 (ME time) link to

      "It is related to that the Palestinian Authority has not paid the electric bill for some years!!!"

      "Israel, the Occupying Power" has made it impossible for the Palestinians to generate their own electricity. Under the Laws of War, "Israel, the Occupying Power" is responsible for the shortfall in essentials. Art 55

      But hey, lets be fair. Your assertion is if the Palestinians do not honour their agreement "
      And have a debt of over $ 500 million, which is threatening to the stability of the Israel Electric Corporation"

      Israel has not honoured its agreement to adhere to International Law, the UN Charter and the Conventions it has ratified and Israel has started (the preemptor starts its wars) numerous wars. The UNSC has issued hundreds of UNSC resolutions affording Israel the opportunity to adhere to the binding Laws those resolutions emphasize. Israel has failed for more than half a century to live up to its obligations. "Israel, the Occupying Power" has destroyed Palestine's ability to care for its people.

      Israel has illegally acquired by war more than half of what remained of Palestine after Israel became a state with it's own proclaimed borders (ibid).

      The compensation Israel owes the Palestinians is astronomical, far in excess of what it has ever been able to afford.

      "In addition the power cuts are for two three hours a day not all the today.

      Tell that to a hospital and essential services. Say ... does Israel allow generators and the fuel to run them?

      "If you were not paying the electric bill for three months here in Philadelphia
      They cut off your electricity and send the debt for collection and destroying your Credit History"

      Understandable.... So, Israel is in breach of International Law and the UN Charter for 67 years....

      "So Israel Electric Corporation waited 5 years and still continued to supply electricity"

      The UN have been waiting for Israel to comply with its legal obligations for 67 years and it has generously afforded hundreds of opportunities for Israel to comply, and still Israel is a UN Member. Must be biased .... in favour of Israel.

    • @ eljay
      I agree that as soon as Israel…
      – ends its 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) "

      Always best to back your assertions

      3rd Jun 1948 in the Knesset

      Report to the Provisional Government of Israel by Prime Minister and Minister of Defence Ben-Gurion 3 Jun 1948
      "The entire expanse of the State of Israel allocated to us under the terms of the UN resolution is in our hands, and we have conquered several important districts outside those boundaries".


      "To the greatest possible extent, we will remain constantly on the offensive, which will not be confined to the borders of the Jewish State".

      Sorry about the Antisemitic source... :-)

    • Instead of offering aid and relief for people in the grip of a natural disaster in territories Israel is supposed to be protecting as the Occupying Power, Israel takes away. What kind of ghastly evil mindset has taken hold of it?

    • @ Walid..... Far worse was realizing I was amongst millions of Jewish folk who have been subjected to Zionist brainwashing, the stench of which has permeated our communities, driving people to bizarre depths of denial, blindness and unwavering belief in the complete bullsh*t of the Hasbara.

      Realizing the Jewish Agency, Zionist Federation and our Jewish homeland state lied its way into the UN and the hearts of well meaning people. Realizing the deep pockets of the Zionist Federation, Bank Leumi, JNF et al were dug and lined by ordinary folk conned into taking loans so they could sweat and toil while Zionist leaders didn't even bother to go live in the Jewish People's Historical Homeland when they could have.

      Relief from that nightmare comes thru dissing the pathetic justifications offered by Israel's ghastly propagandists

    • DaBakr "And its not like the billion of dollars that gets shoveled into Abbas’s pockets goes to help regular, non-militant Palestinians anyway"

      An accusation without evidence ... why am I not amazed? Oh I'm sure you have some, other than more accusations, which without evidence, aren't evidence ... I'll wait .... ...

    • @ hophmi "I’ll save you the trouble: there are no dams in southern Israel."


      31°21'39.79"N 34°22'33.18"E
      31°22'53.12"N 34°23'33.70"E
      31°21'56.23"N 34°27'36.04"E
      31°22'44.44"N 34°29'3.88"E
      31°29'54.97"N 34°30'59.68"E
      31°31'6.30"N 34°33'55.33"E

      "Contrary to what you may have heard, the Jews do not control the weather "

      True. Two points tho. 1) The post you're answering to says "Israel" not 'Jews' . Why is it necessary for you to conflate the two?

      2) Israel controls the resources necessary to build infrastructure to handle storm and flood waters in Gaza.

    • @ steve48 "let’s say I provide you with electricity and also owe you $250. "

      Are you an occupying Power who with holds taxes collected on behalf of the occupied?

      Read GC IV especially Article 55

      "Nobody dies because the power goes out for 45 minutes"

      Tell it to a hospital, doctor's surgery... what happens to people hooked up to life saving devices when electricity is suddenly not available? Are generators allowed in by Israel? If they do, is the fuel to run a generator available? What happens to essential services, security? Ever been trapped in an elevator with a heart attack victim triggered by the elevator suddenly stopping. I have. It isn't very pretty in the dark listening to their life gurgle away as you try CPR kneeling in their urine, surrounded by the smell of their evacuated bowels and the terrified wailing of children, mothers and panicked people beating on the walls and screaming (that was in the peaceful surrounds in Australia)

    • Hi Annie --- Seems Al Jazeera et al have admitted an error re the dams being opened by Israel and withdrawn or apologized.

      Say, does the Israeli press ever apologize or withdraw allegations when they prove to be wrong?

    • Cheyn-Stocks " Palestine receives billions of dollars and free products – fuel and building materials. (from USA and EC)"

      Sources of your information please and to show that Israel actually allows the billions of dollars and materials to arrive .... thanks

      <em"But Hamas instead of building schools and housing
      build tunnels for terrorism"

      Can you show evidence of more than the one un-used concrete lined tunnel that came out near an IDF outpost and could easily have been built by the IDF itself

      For the construction of tunnels Hamas uses child labor!"

      Sources for your claims please...

      "– and Palestine do not pay taxes to Israel!"

      Why should they?

      "and does not pay for electricity!"

      International Law (GCs) tell us the Occupying Power is responsible for the shortfalls in necessities and to protect the occupied, not slaughter them and illegally settle their territory

      "Russia cut off gas for Ukraine! – In the winter as well!"

      Is your point that Israel as bad as Russia or two wrongs make a right?

      "the sole purpose of this article is to slander and
      incitement of hatred towards Israel and the Jews!"

      Go scream at those responsible, the Zionist Federation, Jewish Agency and consecutive Israeli Governments. The Palestinians have never asked to be partitioned, displaced, occupied or illegally settled.

  • Inflammatory posters at UCLA call Students for Justice in Palestine 'Jew haters' (Updated)
  • Netanyahu flips off Harry Truman
    • @ David Gerald Fincham
      ....if the ICJ were asked whether the State of Palestine has a legal claim to the territory, outside the partition line, stolen by Israel in 1948-49, the result is not certain. "

      No document showing an agreement for the legal acquisition of those territories by Israel = not legal.

      "I suggested certain arguments that Israel might use to counter the claim, which seemed to me to have some weight"

      No legal acquisition by agreement = no legal weight.

    • @ David Gerald Fincham "The border is disputed because the ARABS claimed territory INSIDE the Partition Line"

      They claimed partition was illegal under the LoN Mandate and the UN Charter. The majority of the International Comity of Nations over ruled the Arab position (democracy at work right or wrong). After which the UNSC over ruled the Arab position, again democracy at work right or wrong. The UN then over ruled the Arab position accepting Israel into the UN, democracy at work again right or wrong. Israel came into existence by the boundaries Israel proclaimed in order to gain recognition. Those boundaries have never changed.

      "Because the border has never been agreed, how can it be the ‘legal’ border which can be imposed on both parties, which is what you are suggesting."

      Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan's boundaries were imposed on Israel as the borders between Israel and those states because those boundaries previously existed at the time of Israel's declaration. Israel then declared., thereby imposing it's boundaries on what remained of Palestine which were by default those of Israel and the surrounding Arab States.

      "We are both agreed that the territory between the partition lines and the armistice line was obtained illegally by war, and governed in violation of Chapter 11. Palestine deserves territorial compensation"

      Because Israel's borders have never changed. But why should Israel be allowed to get away with having illegally acquired territory by war by being allowed to keep territory it has acquired by war? Palestine deserves its territory, sans Israel, AND compensation. Palestine might choose to give Israel territory and then agree to the change of boundaries, that would be their choice.

      "What was Palestinian territory then is not necessarily the most suitable territory to be transferred now"

      "was Palestinian territory"? It is still Palestinian and; 'transfer' assumes it is being transferred from one owner to another. It has never been Israeli!

      "I have already given one reason: because it contains 2 million people who would be forced to change sovereignty or else lose their homes, giving both states an extra group of angry people who might cause trouble."

      The Zionist regime lives in fear of the truth being known. It spends millions attempting to suppress the truth by whatever means possible. The truth is paramount to understanding. With truth comes understanding. With understanding, violence can be avoided.

      People should be informed of why the situation is as it is, then allowed to choose between:
      A) living under the rule of a blatantly lying and criminal regime who purposefully endangered them, purposefully disregarded the rule of International Law and the UN Charter and dragged them and their state into it's current illegal situation or;
      B) living as a Palestinian citizen in a country demanding its rights under the Law and UN Charter. After the initial trauma of discovering they had been duped by successive Israeli Governments my guess is they'd not only opt to stay in Palestine, they'd also bring a huge class action against Israel, which is again why Israel and the US demands negotiations, to circumvent the law.

      " The right way to negotiate borders is with a commission of experts from both sides and an independent chairman, who will consider such issues as population density, population distribution, transport, resources etc and, of course, the wishes of residents"

      Sounds like partition all over again. How about Israel adhere to the Law as it agreed!

      "To be clear, I am not talking about the sort of ‘negotiations’ we have seen so far: there should be no negotiation until the 1967 occupation/blockade has ended and Israel has recognized the right of Palestine to exist in peace and security"

      You don't seem to understand what the Palestinians are up against. Read the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel and Deuteronomy 20:15 and Israel's Zionist leader's intentions and here Report to the Provisional Government of Israel by Prime Minister and Minister of Defence Ben-Gurion 3 Jun 1948 "To the greatest possible extent, we will remain constantly on the offensive, which will not be confined to the borders of the Jewish State".

      A rabid dog doesn't recover through appeasement. Once showing symptoms they don't recover at all

    • by either of them … link to


      David Gerald Fincham
      "I do not know why you are reproducing the whole text. I was merely pointing out that the word ”signed” was used"

      "by EITHER" not both, not co-signed, not agreed! Independence is unilateral.

    • David Gerald Fincham
      //“Israel, by referencing the Armistice agreements in respect to having the occupied territories assigned to Israel, disqualified itself. ”

      Disqualified itself? You have made that up. "

      Read the Conciliation Commission reply.

      "The Armistice Agreements were made without prejudice to a final settlement. That means the agreed borders could be anywhere."

      " Israel refused to budge from its initial position, the CC said they thought the Arab proposal was excessive, the negotiations had failed, and everyone went home"

      Therefore the borders remained as Israel defined them.

    • @ David Gerald Fincham

      I do not recall reading reading official documents that describes borders as being ‘legal’ or ‘de jure’. I suggest ..."

      I suggest you read UNSC resolution 252 and it's EIGHT reminders and; the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States is International Law (Law determined between Nations).

      Israel followed the letter of the law in making its declaration and in proclaiming that declaration to the world in order to gain recognition and UN Membership. Since being admitted to the UN, Israel has ignored the Law, the UN Charter and hundreds of UNSC resolutions calling Israel's actions inadmissible, having no legal legitimacy etc ... AKA illegal.

      "Borders are usually described using such terms as declared, defined, recognized, agreed, determinate, fixed, permanent."

      Borders are 'described' like this

      The area of the Arab State in Western Galilee is bounded on the west by the Mediterranean and on the north by the frontier of the Lebanon from Ras en Naqura to a point north of Saliha. From there the boundary proceeds southwards, leaving the built-up area of ... etc etc

      They may be 'called' "declared, defined, recognized, agreed, determinate, fixed, permanent"

      "If two neighboring countries define their borders such that they both include a particular piece of territory, then there is a border dispute. In the disputed territory, there is indeed the type of confusion you describe: who may settle where etc. The only solution is for the two states to come to an agreement on the position of their mutual border. Only then could it be said that the mutual border is recognized etc."

      Uh huh. But that is NOT the situation. Israel did not declare its boundaries to include any of the territories allocated for the Arab state under partition. Israel has not legally acquired any further territories. It is inadmissible to acquire territory by war (illegal), There is a breach of International Law and the UN Charter by Irael, which is not a border dispute.

      "Where there was a common border between Mandatory Palestine and the Arab states, the partition line, i.e Israel’s border, followed that border. The Arab states did not dispute those lines.

      Why would they dispute their own borders defined before Israel existed?

      "But the case of the border interior to Palestine, between Israel and what we may call Arab Palestine to avoid confusion, is different. It is different because the Arab states, on behalf of the Arab Palestinians, and later the PLO, did not recognize that border"

      Nonsense straight from the Hasbara manual.. It's irrelevant to ISRAELI sovereignty. States exist by unilateral declaration if they fullfil certain legal conditions, like a defined territory beforerecognition. Whatever lay outside of Israel is simpy not Israeli! It doesn't matter whether its called Palestine, whether it was/is a state or not, whether it was desert or not, whether the Ottomans had it or the Jews had it 3,000 years ago nor does it matter if the Palestinians or Arabs recognized Israel or not. If it isn't territory within the proclaimed borders of Israel or legally acquired by Israel, it is not Israeli!

      "That territorial dispute can be settled only by agreement between Israel and Palestine."

      It is a breach of International Law by the State of Israel, not a territorial dispute. Israel is required by law to withdraw to Israeli territory.

      "So far, that border is not determinate."

      It was determined by Israel effective 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time)

      "If the Arab side had accepted the existence of Israel inside the partition line, the dispute may have been resolvable in 1948-49. But they didn’t."

      Speculation. Israel has never had any intention of returning any territories. link to

      "I suggest your understanding of the conflict has been colored by your belief that the Arab forces entered Palestine on May 15, 1948 in order to to expel Israeli forces from non-Israeli territory...."

      There is no UNSC condemnation of the Arab Delaration on the Invasion of Palestine and; although there were cross border skirmishes, no UNSC condemnation for any alleged invasion of Israeli territory.

      "Because of that mistaken belief you replied, when I said that the PLO Charter claimed sovereignty over all of Mandatory Palestine, the Arab States would not allow it. But in fact they did claim that, and the Arab states supported them, at least to some limited extent, for example by allowing Palestinian fighters to cross the Green Line to carry out raids"

      A) The Green line is not the border, it was a cease fire line negotiated in 1948.
      B) The Arab States as UN Members were/are not required to recognize Israel or any other entity. They are however required to "have respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;"

      "going from a border declaration in 1948 to a conclusion that it still applies in 2015 would involve a complicated legal argument that only the ICJ could sort out. "

      It is actually quite simple. On what date and under which agreement has Israel legally acquired any further territories since declaration?

    • @ David Gerald Fincham
      "I think the concept of ‘legal’ borders does not exist in international law."

      Oh for goodness sake.... Read the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States - Art1 link to "defined territory"

      Under your notion it would be impossible to ascertain where a country starts and ends, impossible to ascertain where a country's citizens may settle, impossible to ascertain what resources belong to that country, impossible to ascertain who it might or might not tax, impossible to ascertain at which point import/export duties might be charged and collected etc etc etc

      "Mutual borders need to be agreed"

      The borders of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan existed before Israel's borders. There was no agreement between Israel and those states over their mutual borders. Why should it be suddenly different for Palestine? Palestine logically is defined by default of the borders of all it's neighbours incl Israel.

      By becoming a state and by its admission to the UN, Israel undertook to have " respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;" Unfortunately it has failed miserably

      "I have followed talknic in using the phrase ‘de jure’ to mean ‘agreed and recognized’."

      I do not recall using those terms in such a way.

      de jure: is when something has complied with the requirements imposed by the rule of law

      Recognition: it is illegal to recognize territory acquired by any war/force (ibid) because the acquisition of territory by war/force is inadmissible (reiterated in numerous UNSC resolutions reflecting the UN Charter and International Law)

      Israel was proclaimed as independent, recognized by the majority of nations as de jure based on the territory being A) defined (as required by law, B) independent (free of all control by any other entity) and C) complying with all the obligations of the law including undertaking to adhere to the law. Unfortunately after Israel was declared, recognized and admitted to the UN, it simply ignored the law and all calls to adhere to the law.

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