Total number of comments: 1705 (since 2010-02-26 10:49:56)
An old Jewish guy in Oz. Tired of the fallacies surrounding the I/P issue. We were given the territory for a homeland state, with more than enough room for every Jewish person on the planet. Even today. Since declaration, Israel illegally acquired more and more land outside of it's actual Sovereign boundaries. All I ask is that Israel adhere to the law, under which it can easily protect itself, grow and prosper. I've received too many threats for opposing Israel's policies towards the Palestinians, broken windows, graffiti'd walls, hate mail, hate snail mail. I'd prefer to remain anonymous, if that's OK. Who I am is irrelevant. It's the information that counts. :-)
Website: http://talknic.wordpress.com
dimadok "Israeli Arab Judge, Salim Jubran, has been appointed to the head of Israel Central Election committee" (my bold)
That'd be an Israeli citizen, under Israeli civil law, which doesn't apply to "territories occupied"
In "territories occupied" Israeli civil law has no legal jurisdiction, Israel's illegal civil policies are not dissimilar to apartheid.
Propagandists do not care! As long as their BS is out there being propagated.
Don
"maybe I am missing something…
glasses ?
link to youtu.be
Kerry in perspective.
link to wp.me
Newclench "You do know Israel has no declared borders, right?"
The words of the Israeli Government May 15th 1948 say otherwise in the Israeli plea for recognition "“MY DEAR MR. PRESIDENT: I have the honor to notify you that the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression, and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law. The Act of Independence will become effective at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time" link to trumanlibrary.org
In the words of the Israeli Government 22nd May 1948 statement to the UNSC "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine"
In the words of the Israeli Government's 31st Aug 1949 attempt to claim territory it had previously stated was "outside the State of Israel" link to unispal.un.org
Like the DNA waffle, "we made the desert bloom" or the cherry pickings from Mark Twain, it's another stupid distraction.
As of 00:01 may 15th 1948 (ME time) it's completely irrelevant to the internationally recognized legal sovereign extent of the State of Israel and the State of Israel 's legal obligations as an Occupying Power over territories "outside the State of Israel" ... "in Palestine"!
hophmi " Oh yes, I forgot. You’re for suppressing pro-Israel speech"
Uh? You forgot something you just made up? WOW!!
Advocating that the Jewish homeland state adhere to the law instead of ignoring its legal obligations, is pro-Israel.
Should be easy to produce some actual evidence Muhammad al-Dura is alive. The report is entirely speculation. Israeli propaganda is really quite pathetic
mondonut "Well done Shingo"
There was nothing for Shingo to refute. Shingo's "picture" was apt.
Should be easy to prove if he's alive. Without evidence it's only speculation.
RJL" if they butt into Israel’s business "
Israeli activities in territories "outside the State of Israel" are the business of all UN Member States/the UNSC and are governed by International Law (binding), the UN Charter (binding), relevant conventions (binding), under which Israel has a " sacred trust" to abide by the aforementioned binding legal obligations as the Occupying Power over non-Israeli territory.
UNSC res 476 reminds Israel for the seventh time of its binding legal obligations.
".. by denying Jews have any historical right to the Holy Land "
As of the moment the extent of Israel's sovereignty was stated by the Israeli Government and the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel came into effect, at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time), our 'historic homeland' became just that, historic.
Israel is now the Jewish state. We no longer have a right to all our 'historic homeland' unless we adopt to become Palestinian citizens in territory which is NOT YET Israeli.
The Zionist Federation/Jewish Agency's unrelenting demand to have a separate Jewish state destroyed our right to settle anywhere in the 'historic' homeland, missing opportunity after opportunity link to wp.me
Unlike Israel, in over 2,000 years the Palestinians have never had an opportunity to miss. Palestine and what was left after Israel was declared independent of Palestine, has been under occupation in part or whole by some entity or another since the Roman era. By Israel since at least May 22nd 1948, certainly since 12 Aug 1948 according to official Israeli Government statements
One cannot declare independence while any of one's rightful territories are under occupation of another entity. It's the very same reason why the Declaration for the Establishment of the State of Israel only came into effect at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time), one minute AFTER the midnight 14th May 1948 expiration of the British occupation of Palestine under the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine.
"That is racism, period"
We are not a race. Period.
@BrianEsker
"One of the most common cries we hear on campus these days is “Palestine will be free from the river to the sea!” "
Independence cannot be declared while one's rightful territories are under occupation. Israel has prevented a two state solution for 65 years by occupying non-Israeli territory. link to wp.me
What was left of Palestine (after Israel was declared and recognized "as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947") has territory that extends from the Jordan River to the Sea.
" There can be no illusion what this represents, and it sure ISN’T a 2 state solution!"
The delusion is yours
" all this highly synchronized Jew hatred"
State policies that run counter to International Law are Jews? WOW!!
justicewillprevail "must have missed the Israeli declaration of war on Syria"
Chapt VII tells us the UNSC must first be informed
E.g., link to mfa.gov.il As far as I know the last legal declaration of war ever lodged with the UNSC !
@ Obsidian "Emil Ghoury, a member of the Arab Higher Committee"
Benny Morris's "a member"..... is not THE Arab Higher Committee.
"the Palestinians were disorganised and unprepared for war, and they themselves launched their invasion of Israel, in May 1948"
Strange .... The Israeli Government website tells us the Arab states invaded "Palestine" link to mfa.gov.il
There's no UNSC resolution condemning any invasion of Israel in 1948 (or at any other time).
There are no UNSC resolution or Armistice Agreement calls for any Arab state to withdraw from any Israeli territory
No USNC resolution calls for peace in Israel (they do call for "peace in Palestine")
The Israeli Government in May 22nd 1948 confirmed to the UNSC that Israeli territories were not invaded and that Israel operated in territories "outside the State of Israel" .. "in Palestine" link to wp.me
@ Obsidian "There are hundreds of millions of people who will say that you have it backwards."
There's nothing in International law giving your theory any credence.
mondonut "basically your argument is that the borders of the state of Palestine are defined by drawing a line around some people?"
How do you think a state is defined? Read this first though, its the LAW since being ratified 1934
You keep looking for the next stupid excuse when you're faced with indisputable evidence.... why?
@ Obsidian
Theological 'legal material' is irrrelevant to International Law, the UN Charter or the relevant conventions governing what a state may or may not do in territories outside its sovereign extent and over which it is the Occupying Power.
Further to @ mondonut
"Again, you cannot define what is Palestine by attempting to define what Israel is not"
If territory isn't Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian, Egyptian or Israeli, it belongs to someone else, it doesn't actually matter who. Just so happens tho, what remains of Palestine, is Palestinian.
Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt had Internationally recognized borders well before 1948 and Israel's sovereign extent was defined by the Israeli Government May 15th 1948 "as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947," and subsequently recognized as such.
The activities Israel may or may not engage in as the Occupying Power of any territories "outside the State of Israel" ( MORE link to wp.me ) are determined by the binding International law, the binding UN Charter and relevant binding conventions as reflected, REAFFIRMED and EMPHASIZED in numerous UNGA/UNSC resolutions, REMINDING all the parties of their binding legal obligations.
@ Hostage There is a maxim in the Torah which says: Cursed be he who moves back his neighbor’s landmark. And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ — Deuteronomy 27:17.
and
This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
The West Bank was part of the Independent Sovereign State of Jordan (UN Member) in 1967
@mondonut "Again, you cannot define what is Palestine by attempting to define what Israel is not. "
In conjunction with what the other states in the region are not, one certainly can define Palestine.
Israel defined what it is not. Israel has no right to non-Israeli territory.
@mondonut Israeli Government statements and UNSC resolutions say you're spouting twaddle.
@ Citizen
" Mavi Marmara (Blue Marmara, where MV is an abbreviation of motor vessel) is a Comoros-flagged " link to en.wikipedia.org
link to en.wikipedia.org - leads to - link to en.wikipedia.org - leads to - link to turkgemileri.com
"..legal equivalent of foreign sovereign territory – namely, foreign-flag ships" link to chamberlitigation.com
Obsidian "Maybe because the ICC prefers prosecuting genocidal war criminals rather than getting involved in a land dispute between religious loonies"
The Palestinian claims are not religious. They've been based on legality A) the LoN Covenant. B) The LoN Mandate for Palestine C) The UN Charter D) Numerous UNSC resolutions against Israel for being in breach of the law.
mondonut "Maybe it’s the part where Palestine does not actually have territory"
The Israeli Government official statement to the UNSC May 22nd 1948 " .. the Government of the State of Israel operates in parts of Palestine outside the territory of the State of Israel" link to wp.me
" and the ICC is in no position to define it for them"
True, the court cannot define territory. However, Israel defined its sovereign extent effective 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) and was recognized as such. The other states in the region had already defined boundaries before 1948. Palestinian territory was defined by default of the legal sovereign extent of its neighbours.
In considering the alleged crimes of an Occupying Power, the court must base its judgement on the Internationally recognised legal extent of the Occupying Power's sovereignty, which according to the Israeli Govt of 1948 was ".. within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947" link to trumanlibrary.org
Israel has never legally annexed any territory and it is inadmissible to acquire territory by war.... go figure..
IL1948 Uh huh...
refugees from Israel- controlled territory amount to approximately 711,000 link to pages.citebite.com
@ hophmi
"This blog is at least in part about hating Israel"
Uh? Care to post verbatim some of the alleged hatred of Israel this blog is at least in part about ... thx
"The visit was designed to promote the increased employment of Palestinian medical staff workers"
Some people just can't help LYING! The visit was designed to promote increasing employment of Palestinian medical staff workers.
"Conference boycotted by Hawking has hosted Palestinian speakers every year "
How many Palestinians will be going this year?
Hawking has freedom of choice ... ever heard of it? Has boycotting caused any more outrage than what he might have said? (think about it)
A boycott uses far less effort, especially for a man with his condition and it seems to have had the desired effect of pushing the issue out into the world's consciousness just a tad more ..
drip by drip
"I just hope they’re got the message that they lost the war of public opinion a long time ago."
It's not in a propagandists brief to get any messages
Unless civilians are allowed to flee the theatre of war, any attack is illegal.
However, under the Israel Egypt Peace Treaty, Egypt was obliged to Israel
There's nothing pinpoint accurate about the damages caused by the explosion of modern munitions.
Simple logic tells us the notion defeats their usefulness as a weapon of war.
Correction:
Statehood is irrevocable except through the exercise of self determination via a referendum of the state’s legitimate citizens and by which territory may be legally annexed to the state and/or be ceded wholly or in part by the state to another power.
"the exercise of self determination by the people of those territories done legally through referenda is the correct constitutional procedure and which properly rejects a “states right to exist” "
Hostage nailed the 'right to exist' as well as it can be nailed.
'rejection' of the 'right' tho, is after the fact
It ought be something along the lines of :
Statehood is irrevocable except thru the exercise of self determination by a referendum of the state's legitimate citizens by which territory may be legally annexed to the state and/or be ceded wholly or in part by the state to another power.
@ jonah
And let’s be honest for once: What other refugees in the world can still retain its right to return after more than 65 years? "
Let’s be honest for once. What other refugees have been refused RoR for 65 years? Israel doesn't even allow return from the surrounding Arab States to any Palestinian territories.
" the right to flood..."
The so called 'flood' is via the Israeli promotion of the irrelevant UNRWA definition. Unfortunately for that theory, the Palestinians claim RoR under UNGA res 194. UNGA res 194 was adopted 12 months BEFORE UNRWA even existed!
Furthermore UNRWA's mandate doesn't even extend to final status link to unrwa.org
UNRWA's definition is not applicable except to serve the purpose of ascertaining who is eligible for assistance whilst they are a refugee.
DEFINITION OF A “REFUGEE” UNDER PARAGRAPH 11 OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION OF 11 DECEMBER 1948 (UNGA res 194) link to unispal.un.org
".. the sovereign neighboring state that happens to be, for more 65 years now, the state of the Jewish people"
Only within Israel's Internationally recognized sovereign extent. Israel doesn't even allow the return of Palestine refugees currently in neighbouring Arab states to the non-Israeli territories the Jewish state currently occupies. It does however encourage its citizens to illegally settle in "territories occupied"
----
BTW how do these reconcile?
They're welcome to stay, but within weeks of fleeing the violence of war, they're suddenly a demographic threat if they return? Doesn't make sense.
BTW all alive today were only children in 1948. Now they're 65 minimum
All civilians have the right to flee the violence of war, no matter who tells them or why, because they're civilians. They also have the right to return, because they're civilians.
The moment they take up citizenship in a country other than that of return, they are no longer refugees and have no refugee rights. The Palestinians have chosen to adhere to their rights, which must really irk some.
"Jordanian annexation of the West Bank in April 1950 was unlawful and was never recognized by the international community, with the exception of U.K. and Pakistan"
1) No countries recognized Israel's illegal annexation of East Jerusalem.
2) Legal annexation is by agreement of the representatives of the legitimate citizens of the territories to be annexed. See the US annexation of Texas. link to tsl.state.tx.us
3) Legal annexation only has to be agreed between the party to be annexed and the annexing party. Recognition by any other parties is not a prerequisite to legality, agreement is THE prerequisite.
4) There is no vote on recognition at the UN. Same applies to the recognition of statehood.
5) Unilateral annexation is illegal. UNSC res 252 and EIGHT reminders, of which UNSC res 476 encapsulates it rather nicely link to domino.un.org
"In conclusion... "
Every one of your quotes is against your case. I'll deal with just one as an example.
Correct. The Armistice Agreement was to stop hostilities, not to change or demarcate territorial boundaries or define states or statehood.
All the states had already existing territorial boundaries. The boundaries of Israel were confirmed May 15th 1948 by the Israeli Government plea for recognition
What remained of Palestine was bound by default of its independent neighours.
The UNSC resolutions on the Israel/Palestine Question call for "peace in Palestine", not Israel. The Israel Govt itself confirmed its territorial extent May 22nd 1948 to the UNSC, describing Palestine as "outside the State of Israel" link to wp.me
The Armistice Agreements
@ yrn says:
Uh? You said read carefully. He wrote an observation. Your twisted little strawman ain't gonna turn it into "He wants war ". It's a tired olde tactic Pajero.
@ jonah"The first point assumes that the West Bank is solely Arab Land, while in fact the illegitimate claims to these territories were simply and unlawfully transferred from the illegal occupying force Jordan to the PLO in 1988. "
1)
2)
3) What is it you don't understand about an Armistice AGREEMENT?
4) The West bank was Sovereign to Jordan 1950 - 1967 , part of a UN Member state for at least 17 years.
"The third point represents the Trojan Horse of the so called ‘moderate’ ‘soft’ Palestinian struggle against Israel, embodied by the Fatah under rule of Mr. Abbas, and its aims at the demise of the Jewish state (as a state with Jewish majority) by means of demographic invasion of millions of Palestinian refugees. "
Twaddle. The Palestinian claim for RoR is under UNGA res 194 adopted 12 months BEFORE UNRWA was instituted. The UNRWA definition is irrelevant to UNGA res 194.
DEFINITION OF A “REFUGEE” UNDER PARAGRAPH 11 OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION OF 11 DECEMBER 1948 (UNGA res 194) No mention of lineal descendants.
UNGA res 194 also applied to Jewish refugees as did UNRWA 12 months later (til 1952 when the State of Israel took responsibility for Jewish refugees in Israel.)
The only refugees with full right of return to Israel's actual internationally recognized territory ( sans any territory illegally acquired by war and never annexed to Israel link to wp.me ), amounts to a few thousand people ALL over 65 years of age. They were ALL children in 1948. link to wp.me
The only demographic threat by millions is in territories not yet Israeli ... some 50% of what remained of Palestine acquired by war by Israel after Israel was declared and recognized "an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947"
If collective punishment thru boycott is bad, the Israeli colonistas' calls to boycott the UK, USA, Russia, China are ... ?
@yrn “What was before the occupation in 1967″
It really must be embarrassing to have only looked at flimsy, propaganda laden narrative only to find you've been duped.
“Let me put it this way, I have never met anybody except perhaps Palestinians who really give one good goddamn about the Palestinian people. ”
1) Doesn't get out much 2) So who is he arguing against? 3) The guy really is embarrassing
The Arab states have for 65 years offered them refuge
The Arab states have fought wars on their behalf
The Arabs have for almost 100 years fought the legal battle for self determination of "the people of Palestine" per the LoN covenant, LoN Mandate, UN Charter
Ordinary civilians risked their lives on the Mavi Mamara
Activists risk their lives regularly in non-Israeli territory under Israeli occupation
Dersh has to ignore reality and the hundreds of UNSC resolutions on occupation, deny, lie and suspend sanity and rationality attempting to get his inane drivel to float.
yrn " who are ALL of you here, that tell Israelis and Palestinians what’s good for them"
Members of the human race, the majority of whom thru UN/UNSC representatives, hold Israel in breach of International Law (binding), the UN Charter (binding), relevant conventions (binding) and numerous resolutions reminding Israel of what is binding on all states.
On the other hand, you're supportive of a state in breach of International Laws, the UN Charter and relative conventions adopted in large part because of the treatment of Jews by the %^&*&^% Nazis. Bravo!!!
yrn "What was before the occupation in 1967"
According to the Israeli Government occupation from at least 22nd May 1948 and 12 Aug 1948 link to wp.me
yrn
"In April 1920 ..... April 1921"
Both long after the Zionist Federation colonization of Palestine began.
yrn "I am 9 Generation in Israel"
Israel came into existence 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) = 65yrs
9 generations in 65 years = 7.2 years per generation
'fool someone else with your stories'
" as long as the Stephen Hawkings of the world leave us alone"
Uh huh. Under a boycott he will. Dersh really is quite an embarrassment ..
@Mike_Konrad "What do you expect the Israelis to do?"
Adhere to the law for once... Get out of non-Israeli territory, take the illegal settlers, pay rightful reparations for 64 years of dispossessing non-Jews
"Steven Hawkings should have stayed out of this"
He is. What do you think a boycott is?
"Israel is surrounded by a hostile sea of Arabs"
No doubt. Things can get rather hostile when you steal, lie, refuse to adhere to the rules, show everyone you cannot be trusted, start wars, lie
James Canning "Russia and China oppose any Iranian nukes. Full stop. So do Germany, France, Britain" .. and Iran.
@hophmi
"I think the UN’s HCR spends plenty of time on Israel. "
UN High Commission for Refugees?
The UNHRC spends time on Israel because Israel is in breach of its obligations. Simple really. You seem to think tho that if a pedophile won't stop their pedophilia, they shouldn't be bothered by the law if someone else is or once was a pedophile. Is that right?
"this argument is sophistry to avoid acknowledging that America’s history is far worse than Israel’s "
hophmi, is the USA still colonizing? Illegally settling? Illegally annexing non-US territory? Israel is!
hophmi
" the boycott is bigoted in application, if not in intent"
Of course... if you ignore what the BDS movement is actually boycotting and why. If you ignore the fact that Israel is in breach of International Law, UN Charter Conventions and numerous UNSC resolutions. If you ignore what's in the room and wade around oblivious, knee or deeper in elephant sh*te
" Israel is the world’s only Jewish state."
Irrelevant, it is an Occupying Power acting illegally in the territories it occupies.
"There are states that do plenty of business with Great Britain with worse human rights records, include states Hawking has spoken in, such as China"
Name one with UNSC resolutions against it for acting illegally outside of its Internationally recognized sovereign extent
"There is little question that if Israel were a country of 1 billion rather than a few million, no one would consider boycotting it"
Strange folk're calling for boycotts on China link to google.ps
miriam6 "the mindless boycott Israel bandwagon"
To call to task a state in breach of laws, a UN Charter and conventions that were adopted in large part because of what the Nazis did to Jewish folk is "mindless"? WOW!!!!
In respect to those laws, the state is no better than the Nazis. such a state to task on its lawlessness indicates where you stand when it comes to right and wrong.
"Tragic that any academic should seek to join an ugly bandwagon campaign that seeks to single out and vilify one nation only – above all others when there are so many other countries violating human rights and international law"
The vast majority of UN/UNSC resolutions against Israel pertaining to the M East are reminders of the law, the UN Charter and relative conventions to which Israel is legally obliged.
UNSC res 252 alone has at least EIGHT reminders. UNGA res 194 has been confirmed about 130 times and reaffirmed some 25 times.
Had Israel adhered to its obligations.... Quite simple really
But I see what you're saying..... If Hawking boycotts these "many other countries violating human rights and international law", as I am sure you are (links please .... thx ...) then you'll boycott Israel?
Or is it that Israel will suddenly adhere to the law, end occupation, get out of all non-Israeli territories taking its hundreds of thousands of illegal settlers, pay rightful reparations to those it had dispossessed?
"It is particularly dumb and ironic that any intellectual would embrace a boycott that seeks to curtail freedom of expression and exchange of ideas and interaction between people – interaction that could change things for the better"
A) Is it cancelled? B) Wouldn't Israel adhering to the law, UN Charter & relative conventions for a change change things for the better?
"Of course those who endorse the boycott of Israel are the same people who screeched in hypocritical farcical complaint when Israel decided to boycott the boycotters:"
Uri Ariel wants Israel to break International Law. AMAZING! Israelis keep putting these criminal types in power
@giladg May 7, 2013 at 4:52 pm
Irrelevant to the Internationally recognized sovereign extent of the State of Israel and the State of Israel's illegal actions as the Occupying Power over non-Israeli territories.
@ hophmi
"If the purpose of an international traveller coming to America was to protest at Guantanamo Bay, do you think he’s getting in here? "
Strange link to thejusticecampaign.org
It's kind of embarrassing, gringo....
"The man was deported because he was planning to travel to the West Bank to make life difficult for Israeli soldiers. "
Israeli soldiers still there? Why? The UNSC has ruled that Israel MUST end the occupation, get out of Arab territories, including Jerusalem. "Israel, the Occupying Power" constitutes " a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East"; link to wp.me
@ shachalnur
Why? Is there a problem with Palestine being recognized by the majority of the world?
Les "in Lebanon the only force able and willing to defend the country against Israel is Hezbollah"
Ever wondered why? link to wp.me
valency
UNGA res 181 was officially and finally accepted by its inclusion without any official reservation, in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel. It is incontestable.
@ m'donut
"Ha!"? Think you have a prize?
The Arab States have only made a suggestion in the face of Israel's refusal to adhere to the law or put forward any meaningful peace plan.
The Palestinians can agree to it being the basis of negotiations or not. It's called self determination, the very notion the Arabs based their legal arguments on for almost 100 years.
Within the framework suggested by the Arab states or not, Israel still will have to negotiate with the Palestinians because negotiations are the only legal way out of the legal, financial and moral quagmire in which successive Israeli Governments have purposefully entrapped it's citizens and purposefully prevented Palestinian statehood for 65 years by occupying "territory outside the State of Israel" link to pages.citebite.com
The law says the only borders Israel has are those it was recognized under, before it made any legal claims on "territory outside the State of Israel". Claims which were rebuffed link to wp.me
The law should still be upheld negotiations or not.
There is no legal obligation on the Palestinians to forgo their any of their legal rights in negotiations.
There is no legal reason why the negotiations should not be based on the Israeli Government proclaimed UNGA defined boundaries, under which Israel gained recognition as an independent state link to wp.me
There's no legal recognition what so ever of Israel beyond those boundaries.
The Palestinian offer of 2011 and 2012 were incredibly generous and forgiving link to pages.citebite.com
Israel stupidly rejected peace again and belligerently responded with more illegal settlements, more lies, more self deception, more dispossession of no-Jews from land in non-Israeli territory, more slaughter. In humans such behavior is usually regarded as being the reserve of the criminally insane.
Quite rightly. A state is a legal entity without religion. One of the rules the Jewish People's Council and the Zionist Movement agreed to adhere to in declaring the State of Israel.
As of 00:01 15th May 1948 (ME time) "the State of Israel" is responsible, Jewish state or not.
Taxi "Church of Scotland questions israel’s right to exist"
It's the usual crappolla spouted by liars for the Jewish state. Israel has every right to exist within it's borders, this is quite clear in the church statement:
ivri "The “Palestinian issue” was always merely an instrument vs. Israel from the Arab world`s point of view"
Odd. The Arabs have sought from the outset, the legal right of self determination for the people of Palestine (inclusive of Palestinian Jews) via the LoN covenant and then the UN Charter.
" the neo-Ottoman hegemonic ambitions of Turkey"
Please elucidate..
" for some countries, e.g. Jordan, Israel has even turned into an insurance policy"
Jordan bears at great expense the burden of refugees created by Israel's refusal to even allow RoR to non-Israeli territories under Israel occupation. Some insurance policy.
@ giladg "The 1947 Partition Plan allocated most of the good fertile land ....."
True or not, it's irrelevant. The Jewish Agency agreed to the plan, considered it binding & stated they were not dependent on the Arabs agreeing to the plan.
The Jewish People's Council and Zionist Movement declared a state "on the strength of the resolution of the United Nations General Assembly" link to pages.citebite.com
The Provisional Israeli Government pleaded for recognition on that plan and was recognized as the State of Israel on that plan. link to trumanlibrary.org
No territories have ever been legally annexed to Israel, it's actual legal borders are still those of the partition plan. The 1949 Armistice Agreements specifically did not change any borders. Nor did the two Peace Agreements with Egypt and Jordan.
".. the 1947 Partition Plan gave Jews no outside access to Jerusalem, not even the Jewish areas, and had the most sensitive areas in Jerusalem marked as under international control"
Weird notion ...
"In the plan Jerusalem was to be completely surrounded by Palestinian controlled territory"
So what? See previous guarantee
"The Palestinians rejected this plan"
Irrelevant. The Jewish Agency accepted it as binding and recognized the fact that one state was not dependent on the other party agreeing. "independence" means not being dependent on another party. There was no 'agreement' clause, no provision to co-sign. No declaration of independence in the world bears the co-signature of any other party. Israel drew its own line in the sand and has failed to adhere to its boundaries.
Furthermore... The Palestinians had no say in formulating the plan, in accepting or rejecting the plan. Would you have agreed to have GIVEN away more than half of what was promised you as a state ( link to pages.citebite.com ) without having a say in the matter?
And ... by the time the Mandate expired (necessary for either territory to be 'independent', before they could be declared 'independent'), Jewish forces were already in control of territory slated for the Arab state, so it became impossible for the Arabs to declare sovereign 'independence', their territory was not and is still not 'independent' of the control of Jewish/Israeli forces.
"... what do want from the Jews? "
"Jews"? Israelis. Conflation is a typical deception employed by cheats and liars. What people want from Israel is for it to get out of non-Israeli territory. Quite simple really, adhere to the law.
"The 1947 Partition Plan allocated most of the unworkable land ... few other bits and pieces to the Jews"
" don’t come and preach here that Israel is ready to swap land that it does not want"
OK... Israel is only willing to swap non-Israeli territory for non-Israeli territory so that Israel can keep non-Israeli territory. So, can you tell us what land, other than non-Israeli territory, will Israel swap?
"The Palestinians should rejoice and these types of offers and opportunities based on the huge mistakes they have made in the past, mistakes that no one has demanded they address and own"
Swap Palestinian territory for Palestinian territory so that Israel can keep Palestinian territory Israel has illegally acquired link to pages.citebite.com and the Palestinians should be rejoicing? Your arrogance has no bounds
"... accept that Israel needs to be the nation state of the Jewish people
Irrelevant. States plead for recognition. The concept of demanding recognition has no basis in law.
There are numerous UN Member states who do not recognize other UN Member States.
"And another thing Mr. Ellis, in 1947 there were no settlements on the West Bank"
The only thing you've said with a speck of truth in it. But there were hundreds of illegal settlements elsewhere in non-Israeli territory. Occupation began in 1948 according to the Israeli Govt at the time. link to wp.me
"... you cannot fool us with your lies and/or distortions"
You're deceiving yourself
The real issue is that Israel simply cannot now adhere to the law, UN Charter and conventions. It would be sent bankrupt for decades.
Israel DELIBERATELY created this situation and Israel should in all fairness pay for its stupidity and crimes against the Palestinian people. Germany has been and is still paying for its WWII crimes.
@ Blank State .... and it wasn't conscience, the hand of peace or moral fibre
Menachem "So Mondoweiss is anti-peace process?
If you say so... no one else is...
"where only one group is entitled to receive compensation"
Only one group are still refugees. People who take up citizenship in a country other than that of return no longer have any refugee rights. They're no longer refugees.
Only one group is still being dispossessed.
Only one state is being told it must, according to the Laws, UN Charter & conventions, withdraw from other folks' territory.
@ miriam6
Uh huh. Lemme see. You want America left to the natives. So all American Jews will be leaving... right?
Let's say for example it's done though... Israel will then suddenly adhere to the law after 65 years ignoring it? AMAZING!! Israel will adhere to its obligations to the UN Charter? WOW!!!
BTW The US is no longer a colonizing nation. They swore off the habit way back in the mid1800's when they legally annexed Mexican territories by consensus with Mexican citizens of Texas. Likewise Hawaii, Alaska, annexed by agreement! In 1934 the US ratified the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States
Meanwhile, Israel is STILL COLONIZING!
Like all propagandists attempting to justify Israeli intransigence, your Hasbara has huge gaping holes.
mondonut "The Palestinians almost exclusively reference UNGA 194 as the source of the “right” of refugees and all of their descendants.."
Cut the bullsh*t pal! There is no RoR for lineal descendants under UNGA res 194 DEFINITION OF A “REFUGEE” UNDER PARAGRAPH 11 OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION OF 11 DECEMBER 1948 (UNGA res 194) People must have been LIVING in the area of return. It included Jewish folk too BTW or are you claiming Jews had no right of return to Arab States? They weren't refugees? They had no right to compensation?
"And then through a series of legal contortions attempt to make a non-binding resolution into customary law"
Strange.... the resolution is based on and reminds the parties of the law.
mondonut
"181 is neither binding nor law. Moot point however, as it has no bearing on the existence of Israel"
Bullsh*t! The final act of acceptance is UNGA res 181 being enshrined in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel. Maybe they made a mistake?
Confirmed the next morning (15th May 1948) in Israel's plea for recognition
And that is how Israel was recognized. Thus far no one recognizes Israel beyond those boundaries. Not even the USA can link to pages.citebite.com lest it break the treaty it ratified in 1934
Furthermore:
You will of course ignore the words of the Jewish Agency because they unravel your nonsense and leave you naked and wading around in elephant poo. Unless of course the official representative of the Jewish agency was LYING! Take your pick.
mondonut "What a red herring, sure most people have the right to vote but no nation of people have the right to vote in the elections of another country
"
I see. The Palestinians ARE a nation. You're slipping in your elephant's sh*t!
BTW no country has the right to illegally acquire territory by any means ARTICLE 11
The contracting states definitely establish as the rule of their conduct the precise obligation not to recognize territorial acquisitions or special advantages which have been obtained by force whether this consists in the employment of arms, in threatening diplomatic representations, or in any other effective coercive measure.
" what this really sounds like is a call for Israel to formally annex what the Palestinians consider their own territory"
Can't help your self can you.. It IS their own territory. Sovereign States do not militarily "occupy" their own territory. UNSC res 476 reminds Israel of BINDING law "1. Reaffirms the overriding necessity to end the prolonged occupation of Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem" link to wp.me
"So sure, I think most of Israel would be up for that. In fact a recent poll said exactly the same"
Under Customary International law legal annexation is by agreement with the legitimate citizens of the territory to be annexed (sans citizens of the Occupying Power) . Without an agreement with the citizens of the territory to be annexed your stupid poll is irrelevant twaddle.
"The Israelis annex the entirety of the West Bank and make a one time offer of Israeli citizenship to anyone who wants it, thereby creating the desired one state, one person, one vote"
By agreement with whom? The territory is not Israel's to offer or take. Annexation means all citizens of the territory to be annexed become citizens of the annexing state. Israel cannot 'offer' limited citizenship to territories it wants to annex.
"Of course the non-existent RoR.."
Correction - Of course Israel will refuse to adhere to the law, again. You have been shown time and again RoR does exist. Yet you still claim it's non existent...but only for Palestine refugees it seems.
"nor will Gaza be included in this offer"
It's not an offer, it's more THEFT!
"A simple peace treaty will take down the blockade"
Peace comes AFTER withdrawal. Read the Egypt / Israeli Peace treaty.
Let's say for example that there was 'one state one vote' and that state was Israel. Once established and recognized, it would be irrevocable unless it was decided by majority consensus (self determination) to cede in part or entirely to another power.
A sovereign state can basically do whatever it likes within its boundaries as long as it doesn't threaten peace in the region. Given Israel's ghastly behaviour thus far, what is to stop it from passing a barrage of laws designed to drive non-Jews out?
"Israelis will be forced to reexamine their values, beliefs, and all the sacred truths and red lines they invented. Israelis will be forced to admit .."
"forced" by what or who? It will take about two generations to cleanse Israel of all the bullsh*te it has feed its civilians and the world. As we can see from the likes of hophmi and co, they're not able to admit ANYTHING! You show them irrefutable proof of Israel's acceptance of UNGA res 181 from the words of the Jewish Agency at the UNSC and they simply ignore it and keep posting the same rubbish over and over. So while we're waiting for the bullsh*t to subside expect a lot of bloodshed.
hophmi
"Richard Falk decided to use the Boston bombing as an excuse to complain about Obama’s trip to Israel"
Quote... thx
".. among a long, oft-repeated laundry list of grievances Falk repeats over and over again"
Uh huh. Well, the Jewish state has yet to comply with the law... It has been 65 years and apart from being given the territory for a state (completely gratis, didn't cost one cent), it's had more than enough rope to adhere to its VOLUNTARY legal obligations. Reminders are a polite way of saying you're out of order. When the electricity bill isn't paid, is the electricity company biased or is the defaulter a scumbag for not fulfilling their part of the bargain?
"Though I think it’s stretching things to say that Falk wrote that the US-Israel relationship was to blame for the bombing"
Well, that's exactly what propagandists for the Jewish state are doing, "stretching things" to the point of blatantly lying again!
"it’s reasonable, given the general theme (to the extent that his screed has a theme) that the bombing is post-colonialist blowback for US policy in the Middle East"
His 'screed' has a definite, logical and rational theme. As for "post colonialist" Uh?
Are you nuts? The US is STILL IN the M East screwing around in someone else's backyard, making war based on false accusations, slaughtering the inhabitants to bring them freedumb when in fact it has been to further American interests.
The US has been interfering, arming, pitching one state against the other for over 50 years in the M East in order to promote American interests and is currently in support of a state who has been in breach of laws, UN Charter and conventions ironically adopted in large part because of what befell Jews under Nazis.
" I just advocate a different response than you do"
Would that be something that hasn't worked in 50 odd years? Imagine the Gulf of Mexico swarming with warships from the M East. Shoe... other foot... Capisce?
"there are Islamic fundamentalists all over the globe, and they are doing much more damage by destabilizing other states than they are by bombing the United States. See Nigeria, Sudan, Somalia, Pakistan, Iran"
What do you think the predominantly christained 'West' has been doing for over a hundred years. The list is far longer than anything you could dream of concocting, with the where with all a terrorist could only dream of. The armies of several countries, with their tanks, fighter bombers, artillery, missiles, submarines, warships, depleted uranium weapons, drones, atom bombs and anything else they can invent to slaughter humans. Not exactly friendly. An occasional domestic pressure cooker is to be expected.
Propagandists don't care. As long as they get their smears published. There'll always be someone stupid, or evil enough to knowingly, perpetuate them
Let's face it, smears, lies, it's all Israel has....
@ frankier
"I wonder what would people think if she had said:
“We will not rest in the crucial work of defending France’s security and legitimacy every day at the United Nations”
France is not in breach of hundreds of UNSC resolutions. The US is protecting a rogue state. No one is threatening Israeli legitimacy or sovereignty. Israel threatens its own security by being a rogue state, creating its own enemies by illegally acquiring non-Israeli territory. It is very simple.
Ms Rice should read the Montevideo Convention
@giladg
"Can you not work out why the UN spends most of its time on Israel? "
Easy, Israel is acting illegally outside its Internationally recognized sovereign extent, in "territories occupied" and not legally annexed to Israel. Israel has ignored hundreds of UNSC resolutions reminding Israel of BINDING law, a BINDING UN Charter and BINDING Conventions.
"... all the problems in the world are because of the Jews."
A meme eagerly perpetuated predominantly in Jewish propaganda and by propagandists such as yourself. I'm betting you can't find one verbatim quote in the UN ... go ahead ... surprise us
"...the Jews, now called Zionists..."
%^%&*&^ hilarious stuff.
"... the UN is more than obliging to offer its platform for bashing Israel"
Israel is acting illegally outside its Internationally recognized sovereign extent, in "territories occupied" and not legally annexed to Israel. Israel has ignored hundreds of UNSC resolutions reminding Israel of BINDING law, a BINDING UN Charter and BINDING Conventions.
"The US is still doing the right thing"
The US via the veto vote is protecting a state that is in breach of Conventions, Laws and the UN Charter, adopted in large part because of the behaviour of the ^&*&^% Nazis towards Jews.
The US ratified the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and duties of States, preventing the US from voting in favour of Israel on Chapter VI UNSC resolutions relating to territories Israel has illegally acquired by war.
The US is compromised by ratifying the Montevideo Convention (a treaty with the rest of the Americas BTW). Likewise the US is compromised by how it recognized Israel May 15th 1948, "as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947,"
cincykid77 "Do you even know what is meant by the term apartheid?"
A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.
"If you would, you’d realize how ridiculous it is to place that word in the same sentence with the word “Israel”."?
Separates men from women at the wall. On buses. Prevents Israeli Palestinians from freely marrying. It has separate towns, separate schools, separate laws, separate buses, separate roads.
"Israel has Arab/Muslim representation in its government"
Representation pro rata? Do some simple maths.
" The situation in the West Bank.... "
...where Israeli civil law and settlement are invalid.
"Having your own state means separation, does it not?"
Indeed. Israel was separated from Palestine, meaning Israelis have no right to settle in all of Palestine. The Zionist Federation missed opportunity after opportunity. link to wp.me
"Mexicans just can’t freely drive on American roads – so does that make America an apartheid state?"
They can. They do every day. Entering and exiting the US at the Mexican border is a dawdle, some just to go shopping. link to nytimes.com
link to nationalarchives.gov.uk
@hophmi
"So you’d rather live under Hezballah rule"
Read your questions again. Read the answer again. Which question was answered?
Time and again here you've shown what ghastly, dishonest, creeps, support Israel's illegal behaviour.
@ BillM
" It wouldn’t surprise me if Hezbollah sent up a reconnaisance drone to scout for Israeli forces gathering in the north"
The drone was in the wrong area
That this just happened to occur when Netanyahu was in the area raises the possibility that this was simply a cute Israeli stunt
@ Mike_Konrad
"What if God does NOT stay on the sidelines?"
Unlike during the Holocaust
@ goldmarx The world was once commonly held to be flat.
"I was referring to the Occupation of the West Bank"
Never the less, occupied is occupied. There was, in the words of the Israeli government, occupation as far back as 1948 of territory which has yet to be legally annexed to Israel.
@ goldmarx
"From 1948 to 1967, Israel got a mere pittance in US aid, there was no Occupation"
Uh? The Israel Government at the time said otherwise.
The territory "acquired by war" by Israel by 1949 has yet to be legally annexed to the State of Israel.
The 31st Aug 1949 Israeli attempt to claim those territories was rebuffed. link to wp.me
Occupation is from 1948
@Obsidian "What’s Sam’s legal status in the West Bank?"
Better question: What gives Israel the right to determine his status? It has no valid civil jurisdiction in "territories occupied"
"Maybe we’ll think about it if Palestinians speak out against Hamas and in favor of the two-state solution."
Start thinkin' pal!
BTW .. Is that the same Hamas who were democratically elected under one of the most highly observed elections in modern history? Hamas the democratically elected Government of Palestine who attempted quell an immediate armed uprising by an opposition supported by the US and Israel?
Hamas who have said they'd accept a two state solution?
Hamas whose charter contains the following caveat "Article Thirty-One: “As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly.” (The Tried – verse 8)."
There are no caveats in the Lukid charter or Deuteronomy 20: which doesn't even justify wanting or the need to attack. Furthermore, it is contrary to the Laws of War, CG's, UN Charter in every respect. Yet that's how the Jewish state has treated non-Israeli territory not belonging to a nearby state.
Cute ...
WOW!! Only Americans can feel sadness at the loss of their kinfolk! AMAZING!!
The people making these accusations are completely insane! Israel is about to pay compensation.
@ giladg Correction ... // memri.org , sites that publish their uncorroborated translations alleged to be vitriolic talk from Muslims //
"Political correctness seems to wipe clear the sores and warts of the Palestinian people. They are squeaky clean in Allison’s eyes at least."
No they're a people under occupation for 65 years and they bear all the hallmarks of a people occupied. Hallmarks that include a propensity to react violently towards their occupiers. That's why the GC's exist.
To protect the civilian populations of both occupied and occupier. However Israel, the occupying power under 65 years of successive governments, encourages its Jewish civilians to illegally enter "territories occupied", thereby PURPOSEFULLY endangering them. Only a real schmuck would support such a government
@ giladg "I wonder why?"
You can find out by reading the full report .. link to crisisgroup.org
@ Obsidian
Meanwhile elsewhere....
@ Justpassingby
Indeed ... Is there any difference in the essence of the following two statements?
1) “Israel must end the prolonged occupation of Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem”
2) “The occupation regime over Jerusalem must be erased from the pages of time”
link to wp.me
Very sad when an educational institution doesn't know how states are recognized or the steps to becoming a UN Member.
When it comes to Israel, logic dis-appears'
Have dashed this off to Stephen Crook, the director of International Student Services. Feel free crookst@uvu.edu
Unless the country in question has a treaty or agreement not to apply sanctions, yes. Sovereign states may act unilaterally on any matter. Never the less, they might be made to suffer for the decision
I wonder if that's the same AWOL during the Holocaust, Hagee, "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" who's been watching over the United States of America's soldiers
Obsidian
"The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were facing extermination.
The Palestinians in Gaza are facing the task of building a State of their own.
Slight difference, wouldn’t you say?"
When you point out two different things, yes, they're different. It's not surprising.
Here's a few of a long list of similarities... Special passes ( if any) to move around in their own country, collective punishment, seizure of property/land, propaganda smearing slurs, racism, bigotry etc
"The Palestinians in Gaza are facing the task of building a State of their own."
First they face the task of stopping the Jewish State from illegally acquiring even more non-Israel territory and ; finding a way of having the Jewish state end it's 65 year occupation of non-Israeli territory. Until that happens independent statehood is impossible.
@ mondonut "having discovered a 70+ year old murder in the Jewish ghetto"
The execution of a collaborator.
"you can simultaneously justify widespread ... "
"widespread" Stats please?
"... Palestinian murder of collaborators"
The execution of collaborators.
"(inaccurately) equate the Jewish experience under Nazis with that of the Palestinians"
According to the UNSC, the Jewish state is in breach of Laws, the UN Charter and relative conventions which ironically were adopted in large part because of the treatment of Jews under the Nazis.
If the Jewish state was in the ghetto it would have been executed too.
OlegR "Are you for real?"
Opening scene - link to news.bbc.co.uk
However - link to news.bbc.co.uk
" and we know he does have them" link to pages.citebite.com
However - link to google.com --- link to google.com
BTW Accusation - link to google.com
However - link to wp.me
People get their news through " the media" .. so it pays not to jump to the conclusions they see fit to print.
Say.....what was their motive?
" Israel rejected the UN Partition plan less than twenty four hours after signing it"
The Provisional Government of the State of Israel said otherwise on numerous occasions
The Jewish People's Council and the Zionist Movement finally accepted the UNGA res 181 partition plan. It's still enshrined in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel - link to mfa.gov.il - effective 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) - link to trumanlibrary.org
22nd May 1948 link to unispal.un.org
yonah fredman "The theoretical person referred to by the diners was someone who was involved in the settler enterprise but not personally involved with violence and adam horowitz’s citing a link to actual acts of violence is yet another case of rhetorical excess"
A) They're involve in the illegal settler enterprise = criminal
B) The rhetorical excesses of Israeli propaganda railing against Palestinians is legend "when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us" More link to wp.me
C) The majority of Palestinians have never fired a rocket, never picked up a gun, probably never thrown a stone at an illegal Israeli settler. They were ALL children in 1948. They didn't fight any Jews, they didn't support Al Husseinni when he met Hitler, he wasn't a representative of the people of Palestine at the time. No Palestinians fought on his behalf in the Balkans. The Palestinians of the time didn't elect him to represent them. They have not claimed anything other than their legal rights. They are not claiming any Israeli territory, (RoR is not a claim to 'territory'). They have never taken any Israeli territory.
Stephen Shenfield
"There was a similar case in 1939 or 1940 when the Nazis deported many Jews into the no man’s land between the German and Soviet occupation zones in Poland and the Soviet Union refused to take them in"
Pre 1945 and the Laws, Conventions and Charter Chapters adopted in large part because of those atrocities committed by the Nazis. That the Jewish state is now in breach of those laws should be ringing alarm bells not only amongst Jews
Ironic....
Fireworks .. are basically mortars .. being fired in celebration .. from grave sites of war victims .. in territory outside of and not yet legally annexed to Israel.
Obsidian "Amazing that the 500,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries, post 1948, have been welcomed into their host countries"
What's amazing about it? Palestinians have also been welcomed into their host countries.
There are some who have forgone their legal rights as refugees and taken up citizenship in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Australia, the USA, the UK.
Then there's a few million who'd rather be Palestinian citizens or Israeli if their home was in what became Israel. Problem is, the Occupying Power over non-Israeli territories in Palestine isn't adhering to the law.
The surrounding Arab states meanwhile have under great difficulty:
Fought the legal battle throughout the LON period and under the UN charter.
Fought wars to protect what remained of Palestine after Israel was declared.
They have hosted at enormous expense Palestine refugees for 65 years.
To infer that the Arabs have not cared for the Palestinians is nonsense.
@RJL "Amazing how the Mossad and Worldwide Jewish Conspiracy never seem to fatigue!"
Amazing that Israel is still colonizing non-Israeli territory 65 years after acquiring, completely gratis, more than half of the territory of 1948 Palestine. (the minuscule amount of 'real estate' owned by Jews and Jewish institutions pre declaration was not 'territory')
RJL "On many counts, the occupation of the West Bank is NOT apartheid at all, as unpleasant, or worse, it may be."
"many" but not on all accounts. BTW even a little apartheid is sill apartheid and a little bit of BS is still BS.
"One thing is clear, for both situations: nothing happens until both sides hold serious talks."
Why? Israel is in breach of the law. It has hundreds of resolutions reminding it of the law and UN Charter. If Israel upheld the law, there are numerous issues that would not have to be discussed. So " nothing happens until both sides hold serious talks" is BS. Israel could adhere to the law, as required.
There'd be no illegal settlements, no uprooted Palestinian trees, no talks on borders, no refugee problem, no discrimination in the muddle of Israeli Civil Law and the Laws of Occupation outside of Israel. You never know, it could lead to circumstances where folk are very very likely to get along. It hasn't been tried in 65 years.
Having talks can mean only one thing. The Palestinians agreeing to forgo legal rights so Israel can keep what it has no legal right to at the moment
While Israel has the precious US veto vote in the UNSC, it's the only path out of the legal quagmire the Jewish State has created for itself. Without, the consequences of its illegal actions could find Israel without any clothes on and facing decades of financial hardship
"The PA is quite empowered to do so, but declines for many reasons. "
In front of the WORLD! At the UN! and again almost word for word in 2012
Even in negotiations, the Palestinians are under no obligation to forgo any of their legal rights.
Meanwhile, Israel is still obliged to the law. Talks or no talks.
@ RJL
"Why are Palestinian ties to the Holy Land/Israel/Palestine any more weighty than ours?"
A) Prior to Israel's Declaration, no 'territory' belonged to any Jewish entity. Jews and Jewish institutions only owned 'real estate' in Palestine, not Palestinian 'territory' and;
since Israel's recognition as "an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947", what remained of Palestine was quite simply NOT Israeli territory.
B) Until territories 'acquired' by war by Israel since May 15th 1948 are legally annexed to Israel by agreement with the rightful owners, it is Arab territory, including Jerusalem link to wp.me
C) The Palestinians have a legal claim upheld by the law (UNSC res 476). Israel does not.
D) The Arabs maintained a legal claim throughout under the LoN Covenant and later the UN Charter on self determination. Israel's claim to territory in the M East is based on religious notions. Options elsewhere for a Jewish haven were considered and possible.
"how can you rubber stamp an absolute right of return"
RoR is only valid for people who actually lived in a region link to unispal.un.org Countries may of their own volition extend RoR to lineal descendants. Germany has for Jewish folk.
"the vast majority of Israeli Jews have no such right"
Israeli Jews have citizenship and the protection of Israel. They're not refugees.
"the vast majority of Israeli Jews have no such right to their parents/grandparents places of birth?"
A) Israel was established to give us our own country in these situations
B) Israeli emergency law 1948 (still in force) forbids citizens and residents from entering the territory of a hostile entity. Israelis could not worship at the temple mount 1948 -1967 under Israeli law. The Law currently applies to Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and what remains of Palestine. Though in the case of the latter Israel ignores its own laws.
C) It is NORMAL in relations with hostile states to forbid the citizens and residents of hostile states into one's territory and vise versa. It is also NORMAL to inter or deport potential allies of a hostile state. The US, UK, Australia interred and deported Germans, Japanese.
Pathetic Israeli propaganda tries to make an issue of what is normally considered normal. The Hasbara is specially formulated for people haven't thought or who've lost the ability or don't want to think.
@ RJL "Reparations for Palestinians cannot be conducted without doing the same for the over 800,000 Mizrahi Jews who were mostly brutally exiled from their arab countries of birth. "
Oh? This yours //" Who “stole” whose land is fruitless, fuels a destructive fire with no achievable goal in site, and can easily be played, perhaps with more truth, by the other side."//
Never the less, having taken citizenship in a country other than that of return, (encouraged by the Israeli Government in Israel), they are no longer refugees. They have no refugee rights. Chalk it up as another loss for Jewish people enabled by the Zionist Colonization plan link to wp.me Missed opportunity after missed opportunity.
" The longer Israeli and Palestinian negotiations are stalled, the less likely those original Palestinian inhabitants of what’s now Israel will return.."
Indeed. The plan does glare out link to wp.me
" Who “stole” whose land is fruitless, fuels a destructive fire with no achievable goal in site, and can easily be played, perhaps with more truth, by the other side. Don’t you get it?"
Germany is still paying for the Holocaust because it is not fruitless to determine who are the guilty.
" perhaps with more truth, by the other side"
Israel & truth? The State of Israel was borne of lies to the International Community, the UN, the UNSC. Israel has failed to adhere to its word.
RJL "There were homes in Hebron belonging to Jews, well before 1929"
'real estate' is not 'territory'. The legitimate citizens of a 'territory' are protected under the " sacred trust" of UN Charter Chapt XI, regardless of whether they own 'real estate', lease or rent 'real estate' or live in poverty under a bridge in that 'territory'.
The 'real estate' owned by Jewish folk and Jewish institutions pales into insignificance compared to the amount of 'territory' allotted the State of Israel, completely gratis!
"Thousands of Jews were killed in 1948, a war they didn’t start"
Plan Dalet was a 'Jewish' plan. Under plan Dalet 'Jewish' forces were outside of the territory allotted the 'Jewish' state the day it was declared. With 'Jewish' forces outside of the 'Jewish' state the pre-existing civil war immediately became a war by the 'Jewish' state in what remained of Palestine. The Regional Powers had a legal right to intervene on notification to the UNSC of their intentions UN Charter Chapt VII
There are no UNSC resolutions against any Arab State for the Invasion of "Palestine" link to mfa.gov.il
"You expect time to stop, only arab claims to be met,"
The 'A'rab claims to "Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem" link to domino.un.org have legitimacy under the Laws, UN Charter and conventions Israel AGREED to uphold.
" the 6 million Jews of Israel and their histories to be irrelevant?
Israel's claims to non-Israeli territory have no legitimacy what so ever. Jewish history in the region and under the Nazis was relegated to history as of May 15th 1948 when Israel was first recognized as "an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947" as it asked to be recognized. Israel has never legally annexed ANY territory to the recognized sovereign extent of the Jewish homeland state. The right of Jews to settle anywhere in Palestine was dashed by the Zionist Federation's push to have a Jewish state. Missed opportunity after missed opportunity. link to wp.me
"When is MDW and other anti-Israel sites going to accept the reality of a land to either be divided between two peoples"
It was divided May 15th 1948 in the final act of the Jewish People's Council and the Zionist Movement accepting and enshrining UNGA res 181 in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel link to mfa.gov.il Israel has been illegally acquiring non-Israeli territory for the past 65 years
It is now 2013. Israel has had its forces in territory "outside the State of Israel" for 65 years.
" starting with eliminating obvious anti-Jewish propaganda"
Israel needs to first stop LYING to its citizens and start adhering to the law, not that it can now afford to. Repatriating hundreds of thousands of illegal settlers and paying 65 years of reparations would send the Jewish state bankrupt for decades