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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
What is so diabolical about Miller's argument is that it designed to torpedo the current negotiations with Iran or, at least, make it very difficult for Obama to succeed. This became more clear to me after reading Stephen Walt's May 25 posting (link to
that describes the negotiations in very straightforward terms.
In part Walt writes From a purely strategic point of view, this situation is pretty simple. Iran is not going to give up its right to enrich uranium. Period. If the West insists on a full suspension, there won't be a deal. It's that simple. At the same time, the U.S. and the rest of the P5+1 would like to maximize the amount of time it would take Iran to "break out" and assemble a weapon. The best way to do that is to limit Iran's stockpile of enriched uranium to concentrations of less than 5 percent. If Iran insists on keeping a large supply of 20 percent enriched uranium on hand, we'll walk too.
What was so promising in the last few months is that Obama signaled that the US would accept enrichment to 5% and Iran signaled that they would limit enrichment to 20%. Other topics would have to be addressed but none are deal breakers -- the US would have to drop its talk about regime change, perhaps some softening on sanctions (Europe would be quite happy if the oil embargo was lifted) and so on.
What we are seeing now are the Israeli and AIPAC tactics designed to thwart this progress by mobilizing Congress and public opinion against Obama reaching that "simple" solution. This is taking the form of insisting that Iran give up any enrichment, insisting that the Iranian enrichment facilities are vulnerable to Israeli bombing attacks, keeping the demand for regime change on the agenda and whatever other poison pills they can devise. Aaron Miller laid this all out quite clearly in this latest piece. If Obama showed any flexibility in the negotiations on any of these points between now and November, the lobby in coordination with the Romney campaign would pounce with cries of betrayal and weakness.
All we can hope for in the short term is that the diplomats can keep the talks going until November. I hope the Iranians have the patience to play this game. And I don't see why not, for they will continue to enrich to 20% as long as Obama delays which will just give them more chips on the board for when the negotiations become serious. I remain optimistic that this will work out. There is not much evidence for this but I feel that the US Congress is getting a little impatient with AIPAC continuing to demand more and more resolutions from them.
Justice, that sounds so correct. Miller is playing the concern troll here. 'Oh my god, war would be so horrible. But Iran has such unreasonable expectations and the US can never accept Iranian enrichment for nuclear fuel that the ending is inevitable -- the US will have no choice but to go to war with Iran. I (Miller still talking here) am the humanitarian liberal and as much as I hate war, the Iranians are leaving us no choice.' Miller is obviously another dual loyalty Zionist/American like Dennis Ross and Indyk who will promote Israeli policies over those of America.
In any case we must isolate these guys and expose their game. They are not working for US.
Miller is right about one thing and that is the current talks are really no more than a cease-fire. They will definitely delay war. I don't trust his predictions about what will happen in 2013. He sounds like he is part of that Israeli/neocon campaign to sabotage the negotiations. If he is not consciously part of that he is saying what he hopes will happen.
You guys are way too pessimistic and impatient. The US is not going to go to war against Iran. These negotiations will be drug out until November. Then we will agree that Iran has the right to enrich U and to keep their bomb proof facility. AIPAC will be working hard to subvert the talks and Israel will continue to hysterically wail on the sidelines becoming more and more isolated from the rest of the world.
To be sure these will be a dangerous 6 months but I believe our military and intelligence services will be working hard to counter any destructive actions the Israelis are considering.
Ben Ami says: there is a growing fringe in Israel whose values are out of sync with those of the Jewish community broadly.
I think he is in denial. This is not a fringe of the Israeli Jewish community, based on some opinion polls I have seen these views are likely supported by about half the population.
I am a betting man but I do not bet on my political predictions. In January of 2003 I was still convinced that the US would not invade Iraq -- it seemed obvious that a war against Iraq was not winnable. All those people who ruled then must know that as well as I did. That was one big error on my part. Fools ruled then. I am assuming that these fools may have learned a lesson.
In any case, one can put down 2 c notes on no war with Iran today and collect 3 c notes at the end of the year provided there is no war. Good rate of return, but I will decline for now.
Time for another round of diplomatic tea leave reading.
It appeared recently that the US was willing to allow Iran to enrich U to the extent of making fuel for its reactors. Apparently this concession was not made in the Baghdad talks that just ended. However, the talks will continue a month from now. Then they will continue a month from that day. Each of the 5 + 1 countries will presumably host a talk one month apart. Gee, that takes us to late November. That I believe is a reasonable target date. Obama has a delicate balancing act on his hands. On one side keep the talks going with reports of progress and set-backs etc and on the other side keep AIPAC under control. Netanyahu will continue with his hysterical braying but we all know by now that Israel is powerless to move without US support.
I think Obama could pull this off. Iran will keep its Fordow facility, will continue to enrich for fuel and will probably trade the 20% enrichment for some returns. Bottom line, no war.
And let us not forget how Israel's efforts to cultivate European pine forests has turned out.
The 'stop genocide in Darfur' propaganda campaign in 2003 - 2005 was another Zionist supported cause, designed to partition Sudan. As is now well established there was no genocide going on there -- maybe 20,000 people perished by military violence but the rest died of famine.
OMG I just watched the video. What else is there to say: Zionism equals racism. Absolutely amazing. If only Americans knew.
Maybe ironic is the wrong word here but many of those African refugees come from S. Sudan. Recall that is the new nation that Israel worked hard to birth. Israel and US neocons worked hard to give them international credibility as a new nation. This involved supporting the insurgents with money and weapons. This involved supporting a civil war that created huge numbers of refugees. It is only natural that some of those refugees would migrate to the sponsoring country Israel. Oh Israel, you must reap what you sow. You did help create this humanitarian disaster it is only right that you support the resulting refugees.
Annie, this is a pretty good take on what is happening. I was puzzled recently seeing Eli Lake as someone who was expressing "concern" about the move towards war. He always seemed like a war monger to me. It is much more reasonable to assume that he is playing the role of the concern troll in an orchestrated attempt by Israel to sabotage the negotiations with Iran.
This is important progress. I remember well just a few short years back arguing with the Zionists that Israel was destroying the two-state solution and they kept on coming back with their support for that outcome and it was only up to the Palestinians to become a little more reasonable. They seemed so sincere.
Now it is honestly out there -- one-state for Jews and some vague solution for the Palestinian problem. They have not yet decided on second class citizenship (don't call it apartheid!) or the transfer option (don't call it ethnic cleansing!). Now the only democracy in the ME will have a public discussion on which of these two solutions it will be. Let the debate begin.
What a weird assessment of the nationalistic nation state. The countries of N and S America, subsaharan Africa, India, Indonesia, and increasingly, most of Europe are multicultural if not multi linguistic. Your views are so 19th century, just like Israel.
That is an excellent idea. The US and EU should terminate all funding to the PA. Of course, as the occupying power Israel would then be responsible for providing support to the occupied people -- this according to some Geneva convention on war and occupation.
Oh the fond memories of SF demonstrations -- everybody looks so cold. East Bay is so much more comfortable.
We have learned too much in the past dozen years to find this news about Clinton shocking. But it does remind me that I have carried a incorrect idea about his role in the "peace" process while president. I recall thinking that Clinton was acting in good faith and was really interested in a viable 2 state solution. I always blamed his failure in achieving anything was because he was too trusting of Dennis Ross who I viewed as an Israeli mole. I didn't know that Clinton had already accepted a million bucks in 1992 in exchange for backing the settlements. Well live and learn.
Sorry Krauss boy you lose on this one. We all love Mooser and pay attention to him because he does not take himself seriously. If you haven't noticed his self doubt is what we all identify with and this makes his comments (humorous as they may be) even more serious.
When I first heard the Israeli government's attacks against BDS I saw it as a sign of weakness on their part as is suggested in Phil's headline. However, if one is fighting against a political campaign, never repeat the charges made against you. This Oren character does that here and I think he is too slick to make that error.
This is an orchestrated campaign to create fear in the hearts of American Jews so those suckers will pour more funds into Israeli charities. Fear is Israel's greatest ally. It is a sign of weakness in one respect -- Israel is using it's propaganda opportunities to target American Jews. One would think that constituency would be locked up by now.
Watching these changes in Zionists public statements is about a exciting as watching grass grow. Even 15 years ago there were virtually no Zionist organization that would back this kind of statement. Officially, they seemed to back two-states but their behaviour has subsequently established that one-state was their policy all along. Two-states was just a cover for their real aims. There is now increasing claims for an all out one state policy from establishment figures. As everyone knows a democratic one-state solution will be the end of the Jewish state -- simply not possible with a majority of non-Jews. Walsh seems to know it too. So now that the Zionists are advocating one-state they are also openly advocating apartheid or transfer.
What is scary is that they have been prepping the US public for this for about 5 years now. They had Obama and all of the Republican presidential candidates boldly announcing that we should recognize Israel as a Jewish state. This has opened the door for official recognition of the apartheid/transfer solution to the Palestinian problem. This has been a slow change in official policy but at some point there will have to be a major showdown. Not sure how it will play out but for sure it will involve considerable suffering by the Palesinians.
he tries too damn hard and not much funny about the right wing
The modern right wing has made good satire obsolete --how can a self parody be satirized (to borrow a Norm Lear quip).
Woody Tanaka says:
This is where I become a pendant.) False. There is at least one viable path to do so. You merely have to breed the dog through successive generations to replicate, in reverse, the evolutionary path taken between the last common ancestor of the dog and rabbit and modern dogs
Permit me to be pendantic. There are probably a number of mutational steps that are irreversible. Deletions are the most obvious but if one of the ancestors to either dogs or rabbits was a hybrid, going backwards would be impossible in principle if the two donor species are now extinct. Hence impossible in principle.
As much as it pains me to support denis he does raise an important point.
Survival after a 75 day fast is unusual. The subject becomes delusional towards the end. Bobby Sands died after 66 days and the other 10 IRA prisoners that died did not live much longer (someone correct me here if you know more about this, I couldn’t find the numbers). It is difficult to know how long one person can survive a true fast (i.e. zero carbohydrates, fats or protein but hydration with physiological salts). The big variable is the amount of body fat and total muscle mass at the beginning. Long term survival is not guaranteed even for a very fat person, there is what is called starvation ketosis that can kill by itself (this results when a starved person begins to catabolize stored fat).
I suspect that if he wrote that letter after 75 days then someone along the line is slipping some protein and carbohydrate into his hydration solutions.
As much as it pains me to support denis he does raise an important point.
Survival after a 75 day fast is unusual. The subject becomes delusional towards the end. Bobby Sands died after 66 days and the other 10 IRA prisoners that died did not live much longer (someone correct me here if you know more about this, I couldn't find the numbers). It is difficult to know how long one person can survive a true fast (i.e. zero carbohydrates, fats or protein but hydration with physiological salts). The big variable is the amount of body fat and total muscle mass at the beginning. Long term survival is not guaranteed even for a very fat person, there is what is called starvation ketosis that can kill by itself (this results when a starved person begins to catabolize stored fat).
I suspect that if he wrote that letter after 75 days then someone along the line is slipping some protein and carbohydrate into his hydration solutions.
Yitzgood, I find your comment a little confusing. What is one supposed to do when they discover that their rabbi is raping children? Are you saying that such cases must first be subject to halacha? I have no idea what that means but I guess you are saying there is some Jewish law that has precedence over American civil law. Please let us know what this law might be. Us Americans are curious.
These images are powerful as is mentioned above. It is so ironic -- today the image of the jackboot on the neck of the downdrodden is the Israeli Jew oppressing a Palestinian. A century ago it was an imperial German soldier oppressing one or another European minority (often Jews) as was depicted in numerous political drawings at that time. It was not just British propaganda directed against the German and Austro-Hungarian empires during WWI but was part of the numerous national liberation movements that proceeded that debacle. Today it is becoming fixed in the minds of the world -- Israel is jackboot oppression, Palestinians are the victims.
There is no way that hasbara central can erase these images nor the symbolism that they represent. Zionism's days are numbered I do believe.
Nice catch Dickerson. Some the great Eastern European Jewish rebels gained their reputation for refusing to recognize the "pale".
Interesting metaphor Andrew: In the time it takes you to admit Israel might’ve gone overboard, you could have more fun riding a glacier.
As someone who spent some time on glaciers it is true you do not feel the motion most of the time. But every once in awhile a whole lot of hell breaks out very quickly. These are the collapses of seracs or a sudden shift that opens up a thousand foot deep crevice in what appeared as smooth snow or the calving of an ice burg. As far as human perception can tell at any given point the glacier seems motionless. But there is continuous strain building below the surface.
I like to look at attitudes towards Israel with that kind of dynamic in mind.
At the first J-Street conference I over-heard a woman saying "What is this, I don't love Israel, why should I love Israel?" Based on the supportive chuckles from a dozen or so people within earshot, I think she was not alone in her assessment. The delegates at that conference were way to the left of the J-Street organizers.
This speech by Ilyse is party-line but must sound incredibly naive to the average member of J-Street. Nevertheless, Phil is right that this kind of change is positive, even if progress here is measured in baby steps.
Uri Avnery has an interesting take on the new coalition government in Israel. (link to counterpunch.org
It is one that makes more sense to me then the ravings of Goldberg, Abrams and Krauthammer.
Israel will not attack Iran on its own. It wants the US to do it. Except we don't, and that was the message from Biden before the rabbis: go ahead Israel if you insist but you do so by yourself. The three neocon stooges are simply spinning the latest political news out of Israel in a way that might increase the chances of getting the US involved in war with Iran. It is not going to work, at least not this easily. Our NSC, military and intelligence professionals know what Israel is doing and they will thwart them using the diplomatic and bureaucratic tactics (mostly invisible to us plebeians) for which they were trained.
I don't think this meeting is important in any way. Obama has already tipped his hand that the US will agree to Iranian enrichment for its nuclear reactors. Israel's demands are just nonsense. Nor will the EU go against Obama on this point.
I simply see this whole exercise as another symptom of Israeli desperation. They are becoming more and more isolated and irrelevant on the world stage. They are crying for attention. Ashton is doing no more than placating the spoiled child hoping to avoid a worse tantrum.
Allison you have much more patience than I could ever muster. This has to be a task as difficult of any described in Greek mythology.
A) Debate with one who comes from an ideology that is proud of a good lie if it promotes the Zionist cause.
B) Debate over the meaning of legality with respect to OPT. To carry this out the Israeli will fall back on any of the following sets of laws, depending on which one backs their interests. 1. Ottoman land deeds and records. 2. British colonial administration rules. 3. Israeli law. 4. Special regulations for ruling OPT. 5 International law. 6. Geneva conventions or 7. United Nations resolutions.
C) If you not befuddled by A or B, the professional Zionist will try Distraction (look over there, over there, see Tibet!), or Dissembling (well now we must take into consideration the Arab character) or Obfuscation (well that brings up Emanuel Kant's categorical imperative).
I would prefer chewing on broken glass.
Lance I see your point but I think Scheuer is completely consistent. He was tasked as a CIA agent to fight Al qaida. He thinks that war should be fought and some of his rhetoric describing this fight sounds downright bloodcurdling. At the same time he recognizes that they are motivated by legitimate grievances. I have not seen him engage in "Islamo-fascism demonization" propaganda, however.
“yay BDS”; a six year old campaign that now even the VP of the US is speaking about,
Good catch I missed the significance of that reference. Yea for BDS, indeed, this shows how deeply they occupy the Zionist mind while at the same time hasbara trolls expand terabytes of bandwidth insisting that BDS is irrelevant.
Response here to Rusty Pipes and Harry Law. Two sensible responses but in complete opposition. I have to agree with RP. Even as someone who has managed a political campaign and advised the successful candidate while in office, it is sometimes difficult to decipher what a politician really means when dealing with a sensitive subject.
Biden's task was to deliver the message to the rabbis that the US was not going to attack Iran on Israel's behalf. Problem here is how to deliver that message without insulting his audience. His speech, if a little histrionic by my standards, is how I would have designed it. Deliver the message and wrap it is standard boiler plate that does not commit the US to anything we have not already promised Israel.
This is a positive development. It is now clear that the Israeli public backs the settlements and the apartheid solution to their problem Palestinians. The three Zionists commenting here reinforces that conclusion. The reason this is a positive development because it was just a year or so back that progressive Zionists kept insisting that a majority of Israelis really really backed the two state solution and that a negotiated peace was possible. Now we can completely dismiss that nonsense.
This clarifies the political path that both the Palestinians and her international supporters should follow.
1) Given that a clear majority of Israelis support the status quo we can conclude that Israel cannot reform from within. They can be pressured through BDS. This will take some time. It is only human nature to circle the wagons when pressured from abroad. People will initially put up with a lowered standard of living and privations caused by an economic strangulation. But once the idea settles in that sanctions will not be removed without reform something will happen. Maybe an increase in emigration, especially among the higher middle classes or maybe outright capitulation.
2) The Palestinians can rally around Marwan Barghouti's call for an immediate end to the "peace" process, dismantle the PA and reconstitute their movement into a non-violent civil rights campaign. This would mean and end to the $100s of millions dollars used to support the Palestinians and force Israel to assume financial responsibility of their occupation. This too will go far in economic pressure against Israel.
Annie, good call. I agree that the military is going to do its best to preserve the negotiation process with the Iranians. I suspect they started to get real worried that Israel was going to provoke a war and they will continue to work hard to prevent Israel and their plants here to do so.
Well AllenBee that is an interesting take. But I do not think so. Our shift to China policy is, I believe, an effort on the part of our State Department to redirect our policy in an important direction. Those professionals must realize what an insignificant pimple that Israel really is in bigger picture. Surely, China is more important in international affairs then is that tiny nuisance of country in the ME. I think what they are doing is a mistake, but China should take up more of our time than insignificant Israel (sure Israel has amassed 400 nuclear war heads but still their economy and importance in the world amounts to very little).
Ignatius's report that the reactions of the Israelis are "choreographed" with the US is absurd. That is not how politics and international diplomacy works. Some US official was simply trying to spin Israel's reaction to the Iran negotiations and the obedient Ignatius, scribe that he is, simply passed it along.
I think Israel is more isolated internationally today than any time in the last two decades. Amridor's visit is a desperate attempt to influence events. They know that Obama has decided on a course in defiance of Israel's demands and this is their effort to become more relevant and perhaps to gain information on potential differences among the parties that might be used to split the coalition.
One thing we can be sure is that Israel will be working hard to sabotage these talks. They have plenty of allies inside the US in the government, press and think tanks to put together some elaborate plans. I thought for some time that the removal of Dennis Ross from the Iran portfolio was a sign that Obama's national security staff did so to protect our Iranian policy from sabotage within.
I am seeing growing influence by Arab Americans politics. I am active in the Democratic Party at the county and state level. After 911 and the anti-Islam backlash set in, I have been attending a CAIR annual dinner. National level politicians avoid these dinners like the plague. What I have witnessed is at the local level, many office holders do show up and more every year. These dinners are in Sacramento and at the last one I recognized 3 State Assemblymen, 4 mayors and about 6 County Supervisors. The crowd was obviously well heeled and these officials were obviously showing their support in hopes of campaign contributions. Two of those in attendance could very well be in the US House within a decade.
I think this is a very positive development and hopefully will be seen at the national level in coming years.
OlegR your expanded quote doesn't really help your case one bit. If you think that repeating those words will win any debates inside the US, then let me gently point out that you are so wrong. I gather you are Israeli of former Soviet origins. It is interesting to have you around to allow us to get a better view of the Israeli soul.
I can see why so many of your compatriots feel so isolated -- you really are isolated from the humanism that has guided the better half of Western civilization over the past few centuries.
Oh Sammy don't get bent out of shape. Sammy is an endearing form of Samuel where I come from. Just trying to engage on a personal level.
The video shows Israelis thugs beating up on Palestinians that are resisting Israeli oppression. Your complaints about the editing really does not change that obvious fact.
SammyT pleads: I encourage you to open your eyes, your minds and your hearts toward what is TRUE.
OK, I did. I see more Israel thugs oppressing Palestinians. That seems clear enough. And what is your point?
Oh Phil you can be so brutal. What an amazing comparison. Some time back you brought up good old Abe and his campaign against slavery. I liked your comparison between today and then and how in politics things can change very quickly. It was unclear when you first brought this up why this was relevant to the IP issue. But then recalling what happened after 1958 in the American South and seeing how quickly things changed it seemed like reasonable comparison. I think your instincts are sound. There is another change coming just around the corner.
But is that idea so far-fetched when Netanyahu tries to use the Esther story to justify an attack on Iran?
Not at all. Netanyahu still refers to the Palestinians as 'Amaleks'. According to the ancient texts (old testament, or talmad, or whatever) that gives the Israelites permission to not only kill every man, woman and child but their goats, donkeys and asses. We do know that modern day Israelites slaughtered the animals in the Gaza zoo, not to mention their slaughter of the Gazans during their assault in 2009.
That is what Israelis do.
Well written American. I was planning on making the same point. There was no consensus that was shattered. Israel was in agreement that the US should attack Iran. What changed was that the US clearly signaled that they were not going to do it and Israel would have to go alone if they wanted it done. Netanyahu and Barak's crazy threats that they would in fact do so was a threat to isolate the Israel from the US -- now that would have been a consensus shattering event. The grownups in Israel have been forced to come out publicly and challenge N&B to prevent that from happening. Hopefully they succeeded.
atime suggests: As best i remember CJCS Gen. Dempsey was the first major American official who was sent out to make an official statement.
Admiral Fallon in 2005 was the first major military leader that warned against an attack against Iran. The neocons in the Bush administration brought his career to an end over that one. But his views have prevailed in the highest levels since. Dempsey's statement was a continuation of that sentiment.
Chet brings up again the fact that Iran has anti-ship missiles that probably have the capacity to sink any US warship inside the Persian Gulf. It is no coincidence that it was a US Navy admiral that first publicly argued that the US should not attack Iran.
This what a successful BDS campaign looks like. Each failure to gain another coop or mutual fund to join BDS gains Israel absolutely nothing. After a failed vote nothing has changed. But each time one of these votes succeed, Israel has lost. That is a game that I will always put my money behind. You lose a campaign, then zero gain and zero loss. You win one, and Israel loses and you win. What fool would bet for Israel with those odds!?
Crazy as it may seem, Israel is putting all of its money on these campaigns. Don't they understand, they lose even when they "win" because their wins have no pay off?
Sorry, just applying a little gambling theory to this process. Not sure how appropriate it might be.
Justice I suspect that you could be correct that some in the Israeli government are thinking exactly that. If Israel could just provoke a big enough war, then the transfer option will be viable. However, I think they are mistaken. They tried that then the state of Israel will fall through emigration and one massive international economic boycott.
I have to agree with FreddyV here. Israel has really only two rational options.
Apartheid is not a stable system. It will eventually become something else. Israel has, it seems to me at least four choices. One state or two state are obviously the two rational options. The other two are massive ethnic cleansing or genocide. If Israel exercised either of these latter two, it would be so severely shunned by the rest of the world that the state would probably collapse. These latter two possibilities include scenarios of nuclear war, the Samson option and the full expression of the Masada complex. Needless to say Israel does not survive those either. Two hundred nuclear warheads sound like a lot, but humanity and Western civilization will survive.
That was one impressive demonstration. I was struck by the Golani brigate guy who was promising death to the demonstrators. Israel is coming unglued. Soon Jews will not just be killing Arabs, they will be killing each other. And the US is dedicated to going to war with these nuts. One big wow!
Didn't the Knesset pass a law last summer making a crime to honor the nakba on independence day? Or was it just proposed?
Great story Phil, it is what you do best. What struck me most was what you called the J-street faction. Utterly, utterly useless. If they wanted to be useful they would engage the fanatics in head-on debate. This would mean, of course, a willingness to be shunned and exiled from the house.
Oh poor wondering Jew. It looks like your precious leader is just a buffoon. I feel for you man, I really do. Here you thought he was a real mensch and then it turns he is just a silly clown.
This is so reminiscent of 1948, it brings back fond memories I'm sure. Soon after the Nakba, the Jews looted the abandoned Palestinian properties and kept the rugs, furniture other household items for themselves. This little detail about independence day is not openly celebrated but it is obvious that Israeli Jews have no inhibitions about looting Arab properties.
Concerning the final question about what is happening to the WaPo and NYT allow me to suggest cognitive dissonance. CD is an over-used and increasingly misused term to describe mass delusional behavior but I think it appropriate here.
First their is the primary belief system -- originally applied to religious beliefs but finds applications in nationalist and political movements -- that is shared by a group. In this case belief in the goodness of Israel as the savior of the Jews. The belief consists of elements such as "A land without a people for a people without a land" , "the most moral army in the world", "the only democracy in the ME", and other beliefs that Israel is a bastion of Western civilization in a barbarian region.
These beliefs are coming increasingly under assault by reality for all of the reasons that are so well documented here at MW. This kind of conflict between the belief system and reality results in a split in the movement. There are those that reject the myths but then others have a different reaction: they react to the conflict by embracing even more fanatically their original beliefs.
I see WaPo and the NYT falling into the fanatical cult faction in this split. The good news is that it means the reality of Israel is beginning to infiltrate their minds if only at the unconscious level for now. The bad news is that they willing to actively pursue actions that are even more divorced from reality. Bad wars or other ruinous actions may result. The Chinese cultural revolution in the 1960s is one of the more spectacular examples.
In any case rational debate becomes less and less effective in these kinds of environments. What the cultists need is good therapy. What is needed is a Zionist deprogramming organization.
Keith says: Rabbis suggests to me that there is a definite link between Zionism and Judaism, anti-Zionist protestations notwithstanding.
Unfortunately, I think that is true. Many years ago (I was ten or so, we are talking about the 1950s) my Christian church was involved in a inter-denominational faith thing that Jews should not be objects of discrimination. We all agreed. In fact this group of Christians became active in the civil rights movement during the 1960s.
There is no way that this group would support the colonial occupation of Palestine. If 1200 rabbis now insist that we must support Israel in their colonial domination of the people of Palestine, then I think it is time for American Christians to engage those rabbis in political opposition. Here is the question: Do American Jews really want to engage in this type of battle? Is Israel that important to you? If so, there is a growing number of Americans that will engage in that battle.
Here's an interesting story about why Cantor helped defeat Rep. Don Manzullo . Link to: link to thinkprogress.org
Apparently Manzullo once said Cantor would not be “saved” because he is Jewish. This pissed off Cantor and he gave $25,000 to Manzullo's opponent because he thought this comment was antisemitic. This is crazy. It is part of Christian Zionism that the Jews will not be saved if they do not convert. Joe Lieberman addresses those same nuts every year and praise them for their support of Israel. Does this mean that Cantor lost the party line? Does this mean that there is a split developing between the Jewish and Christian Zionist? Let us hope so.
This is downright weird. Oleg brings up body parts trading. Seems totally oblivious to the sordid history Israelis involved in all sorts for body parts marketing -- from using bodies as bargaining chips, to illegal organ transplant trading to unauthorized selling of cadaver parts by the state coroner. So when these details are brought up all she can do is scream "blood libel"
Great debater you are Oleg -- "it is antisemitism all the time, there is nothing else I need to say".
Oleg pretends to know something:
Trotsky was from the conservative right?
OMFG
LOL
Faints…
But what she seems unaware of is that Trotsky was mentor to many of the founders of the neocon movement here in the US. You try hard Oleg but your knowledge base is just a little too deficient to play with us.
Saleema I think we are in at least 99% agreement. You talk about one God as the true God. That is good. When Abraham pushed that notion, which Jews, Christians and Muslims seem to accept there were dozens of deities competing for acceptance. Throw in the Egyptian and Greek deities as well as the Sumerian and Akkadian religions than I think we can accept that those middle eastern peoples from 2 to 4 thousand years ago believed in many Gods. This is not to mention the many Gods my ancestors believed in during those times (Viking and Finno-Ugrian people). There have to be at least 100 Gods here if not a thousand.
As an atheist myself we are in at least 99% if not 99.9% agreement. We both have rejected 99 or 999 Gods. As for myself I have rejected just one more than you have. Shouldn't that be a sound basis for all of us to get along without more war to solve this 1% or .1% misunderstanding.
Oly baby asks: “How did the western left transformed a national struggle into a colonial apartheid enterprise”
As someone who once viewed the IP conflict through the lens of two competing national movement but now see Israel as a colonial apartheid enterprise let me honestly answer why I changed.
In 1992 I truly believed that Israel wanted peace with her Palestinian neighbors and was willing to give them the WB to build a state. But 20 years of settler expansion, fully backed by all Israeli governments, convinced me that Israel had pulled one massive swindle on the whole world. Theft of the land is all they were after. Once that land is stolen, colonial apartheid is the only mechanism to rule that land while preserving "democratic" Zionism.
Thanks for asking.
Bradley Burston link to haaretz.com
seems to believe that this Eisen story is going to make a big difference inside Israel. He thinks it will awaken a conscience and break the Jewish public's blindness to WB atrocities. Hope he is correct, but I doubt that most Israelis are really that ignorant about what is going on there.
A different reaction was an article by Amos(sp) Harel (this op-ed seems to have been disappeared on Sunday) in which he said Eisen should be fired not for an illegal act but for stupidity in letting his actions tarnish Israel's international reputation. That is the Israeli reaction that I am used to seeing.
Winnie wants us to know: Most of the Palestinians I know – and I dare say I know more of them than most people in the Mondoweiss community – don’t ascribe to the narrative routinely presented here, and have a far more nuanced understanding
Well I have known perhaps a dozen or so Palestinians that live in the US over the last 30 years and have yet to hear one say anything positive about Israel.
I have to say Winnie, you are just not believable.
I first saw this story in Haaretz in the morning. It was something by Amos Harel. He said that Eisen was not removed for his violence but for his stupidity. Harel then goes on to say that his action was stupid because it caused Israel to look bad in the PR department. I went back tonight to find the link at Haaretz but it was gone.
Sometimes Haaretz tries to be "progressive" but when all is said it really is Zionist.
pable
What the hell is this reference to 'cancer ducks'. I ask because you often have sensible things to say but this makes little sense.
You want comparisons. Well there was a major immigration movement of Croatian and Ukrainian fascists into the US at the end of WWII that made a rational foreign policy with Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union difficult. Then there is the ongoing problem of the Cuban refugees who make it impossible to normalize relations with the current govenment of Cuba.
The reason Israel has become a major issue is that now, the Zionist forces in this country have gained so much influence over media and government, they have the power to make us go to war with Israel's perceived enemies. It was the Iraq war that truly exposed the danger of internal Zionist forces. Obviously today it is they that are pushing hardest for war against Iran. This is the problem. The Ukrainians, Croatians, and Cubans were a nuisance, the Zionist are a proven danger.
The Israelis (probably about 85% of them) aren’t even noticing the growing distance from America’s Jews
And those Israelis that are aware their reaction is 'good riddance'. I wish the American Jews could establish an equally sensible position. A US national policy of 'good riddance' might not solve the Palestinians problem but it would make it much easier for them to find a reasonable solution.
Krauss you raise the question of Jewish emigration from Israel. This is real difficult to answer. I don't think the Israeli government has been to forth coming on this question. The official number is 250,000 Israelis live abroad but some independent estimates make it 750,000. This latter number is remarkable. Imagine if 10% of the a country's population lives abroad. This is true for some economic basket cases, like Latvia, but it is not normal. Then there are large numbers of American Jews who are buying vacation homes in West Jerusalem and condominiums along coast North of Tel Aviv. These places seem to be occupied only a few weeks each year.
I would be interested in seeing some real independent demographer parse the Israeli census and land use data to see what the real numbers are. Perhaps someone is aware of such an analysis.
Well Fredblogs it can't be a red herring if the comment cannot be found anywhere on this thread. Is this a new hasbara trick? -- refuting non-existing arguments.
Bill M accurately says what is basically the inherent contradiction built into the entity known as "progressive Zionism".
Terryscott's comment is illustrative of a certain kind of rigid thinking that is common among rightwing conservatives. This has been documented in psychological testing. They cannot distinguish critical analysis from partisan opposition. They are obedient to authority and accept their ideology from them. I bet Terry thought his comment was a clever retort. These people also lack a sense of irony and humor in general.
People on the left are much more independent thinkers less will to accept ideas uncritically. Hence there is usually more disagreements among people who share common values and goals.
Terry can't help it either, we think it is a genetic predisposition.
Lyn I was not calling alison Weir an antisemite. I was saying that she was a fool to go on the air with that Clayton character. She has no political common sense.
Since I responded to your first post I went back a looked at Alison's record. You are right, she is a total fool without an ounce of political sense. However, we do not need to use up band width talking about her for the simple reason she has nothing to do with us. She is one tiny, and as far as I can tell, completely discredited "antiZionist" voice. It is not worth our time to amplify her message since her message is going nowhere on her own.
Nice move stopaipac. This begins with a story about Fox News promoting white supremacists and you divert it into a discussion about some nut job I had never heard from before. Please do note Fox News is much, much bigger and more influential than Alison (who?).
There are many decent soldiers in the US army in Afghanistan.
That may very well be true, but we just saw one go ballistic, you know Sgt. Bales. He will soon be cleared of any crime for killing 9 children and 8 unarmed adults because of PTSD. Remember Golda Mayer telling us that the IDF is the most moral army in the world because when they are in the process of killing Palestinians they cry while doing so.
It is a stupid prank that got out of hand,
Not at all. It was an original act of political protest. It worked. It revealed yet again how Israel and their backers will lie and distort, it reveals the paranoia at the heart of Zionism and another over-playing of the victimization card. This is an act that had scant attention initially but now has become an international issue.
The students now need to use this opportunity to educate the larger public about the true face of Zionism and their house demolition policies against Palestinians. I assume when they did this they were aware that opposing Israel will bring down the wrath of Zion. Too bad about the death threats but that just goes with the territory.
Annie (or should I call you annie) good link to 972mag. I remember Aba Eban well. When I first heard him he sounded like the most reasonable and articulate person I even listened to (that was 1967 or so). OMG was I ever naive then. Those transcripts of him make him appear as dishonest and despicable as Netanyahoo today.
The Zionist have been lying to us from the very beginning and their words should not be given any credibility, ever.
Our only response must be BDS until Israel submits to world opinion -- rational discussion, negotiation, whatever it is called is useless. They lie, they lie and they lie some more. They will always lie for some temporary gain but at some point no one will believe them. Game is over then.
This not a red herring at all. What is keeping this story alive for 5 days now is Israeli over-reaction. It is putting the spotlight directly on Israel's efforts to push the US into war with Iran. Their efforts to portray Grass as a Nazi will just alienate more Germans from Israel -- Grass is certainly more popular than Israel there.
There is something interesting going on here. Whatever public relations efforts Israel and her supporters push these days, simply allows for a broader public discussion and education of gentiles into what Israel and Zionism represents. Israel simply cannot win these debates at this point. Every time they try, they just peel away a few more supporters and reduce their core supporters to a position of irrational fanaticism (who then become even less convincing in public debate). I love the smell of desperation in the morning.
A former Israeli Defense Minister said in interview on Army Radio that Suleiman was Israel's choice for President. This interview made headlines throughout Egypt today. Before this story broke Suleiman was polling at 9%. If he has more than 1% support now I would be surprised.
Your friends might be right. The embassy takeover resulted in discrediting the secular forces that were part of the coalition that replaced the Shah -- namely Bani Sadr and Ghorbanifor (sp??) and their followers. With the destruction of these people and the other secular leftist forces the Islamists emerged as the most powerful political force in Iran. It is quite possible that the Iraqi invasion further consolidated their control over Iran (just your good old fashioned rally around the nation, as represented by the current government that controlled state power).
Some Iranians, I know, are convinced the Iran-Iraq war ultimately brought the Mullahs to power.
It was the crises around the seizure of the US embassy in Tehran that brought the Mullahs to power. That ended 9 months before Iraq invaded Iran.
I first became involved in the online Israel debate at TPMCafe when Rosenberg posted there. There was a time when that was one lively discussion forum. I think it became a little too lively for Josh Marshall who runs TPM. In any case that site has declined. But it was there that I learned about Mondoweiss, in fact Phil was posted there for a few times.
I hope MJ is successful at his new site. I will stop by and see if my contributions liven things up a bit.
I have difficulty criticizing Finklestein. One thing about him is that he is a lone wolf. He does not do well in groups. I read that Haaretz piece and came away with the impression that he feels he no longer has a big role to play in critiquing Israel since so many are now doing what he used to do. I have always respected him for his fiery rhetoric. His analysis of the bigger picture has always been a little weak. It seems, like with Noam Chomsky, he lives in fear of a revival of antisemitism in the West because of Israel's behavior. I can't criticize him for this fear.
Today Sullivan seems to have leaned towards one-state with:
Increasingly, it seems to me the window is over for a two-state solution in Greater Israel. Ethnic social engineering can work if you have enough brute power.
I don't recall him saying this before.
This characterization of Grass is completely off.
First he did not have a Nazi past, what he admitted to was serving in an SS division.
At the age of 17, in November, 1944 (Germany had already lost the war, they would surrender 6 months later) he was drafted into an SS tank division. Germany had already suffered over 4 million combat deaths and somewhere near 10 million irreversible wounded. They had a severe shortage in soldiers and the regular army began drafting youth as young as 14. The reputation of the SS is based on the rear line regiments that controlled civilian populations. The SS also consisted of front line combat divisions, that served the role of shock troops, i.e. those units that spear head assaults against opposing armies. In the US we have the 101st and 82nd airborne divisions and the Marines that serve a similar role.
A last point is that Gunter Grass was raised and educated in Prussia -- this was the most highly militarized state in Germany, with a 300 year military tradition. Every child was exposed to intense military indoctrination and the glories of 300 years of victorious campaigns. The Nazi Party was not particularly strong in Prussia and indeed the May plotters that tried to assassinate Hitler were Prussian.
There is absolutely nothing in this sketch that makes Gunter a former Nazi.
Just another chapter in the Israeli playbook -- if you can't deal with the message then attack the messenger.
Actually I made my comment deliberately provocative to see what hostage's response would be (didn't know that he approved of the ICC). I have more respect for his opinions in matters of international law than I do of my own.
But from my own meager knowledge I think the ICJ is less biased when it comes to US interests.
OT but here is a story that deserves its own thread.
link to haaretz.com
Guenter Grass is being vehemently attacked for writing a poem criticizing Israel as a threat to peace.
The ICC is the kangaroo court that the US established to try foreign leaders who defy US hegemony. No one should take this institution seriously.
Thomas
One of the signatures was As'ad abuKahlil, who is someone that is not under the influence of any Jewish organization
Tree OK I stand corrected on his origin. I suppose paabrhm has the right to choose who he considers the leadership. I really do not think that Jewish people would have pressured a group of Palestinian writers to dismiss Atzion, after all he a Jewish problem not an Arab one.
Other than some ‘noted’ Palestinians
That was one impressive list of "notables". If you want to dismiss them, you are dismissing the intellectual core of Palestinian resistance. paabrhm are you white? -- havn't the white people been telling the brown people for the last 300 years who their leaders should be.
annie says if she wasn’t jewish everyone would scream anti semitism, there’s the jewish privilege.
Not at all. If a black uses the n-word in a self parodying sketch no one would accuse them of racism. Phil missed the mark big time on this story. It is a nothing burger.
Fredblogs says: So does it say anywhere in this plan that the new towns are to be Jews only
Probably not, but come back in 10 years and see the Jews only village. Gee how did that happen? There will be a new generation hasbarists who will patiently explain why and at the same time deny the JNF lands carry Jews only ownership convenants.
Austin, nice review. I have one criticism. You say The cognitive dissonance is truly staggering .
Cognitive dissonance is a term defined by social psychology that finds numerous applications to political and nationalist movements. But that doesn't apply here, at least not for the most part. There are two other explanations.
I was raised in the 1950's in a family that supported Israel and were quite aware of the Nakba. It was considered a "historical necessity" much like the expulsion of 13 million Germans from their Eastern homelands or the suppression of the Ukrainian Kulaks. Israelis I have met over the years shared that view if willing to talk about it at all. This can be called many things but not delusional.
Then there are the majority of American Jews who simply and honestly believe the founding myths -- the Palestinians ran away with free will. This belief system ranges from willful ignorance to complete political indoctrination.
Good analysis Bruce. I knew there was something very suspicious in Slaughter's comments but didn't see what it was at first. My suspicion is based on her record -- a liberal establishment type that has supported every US war over the last two decades and resolute supporter of Israel in the war against Palestine.
You caught her deception perfectly. What needs to be corrected is not Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, but rather resurrection of the peace process. Without a peace process the US is standing out there nakedly exposed to the whole world as Israel's enabler. With a peace process cover, however, the ignorant Arab natives would recognize the beneficence of US intentions, according to Slaughter. I think comparing her to Dennis Ross, as someone mentioned, is accurate.
Anne-Marie Slaughter has been a despicable hawk for many years. She supported the wars against Serbia, Afghanistan and Iraq as "humanitarian wars". She was completely silent about the Palestinians and supportive of Israel from her perch at Princeton before her state dept job. How do you think she got it in the first place. While in government she supported the Nato led war against Libya.
I would take what she is saying today with considerable skepticism but we can hope that she will come out more clearly for justice for the Palestinians. Beinhart and Sullivan came from even more reactionary positions and have been sounding OK recently so we shall see. Her words here at this J Street meeting are not that good if you parse them carefully.
Marwan proposal is quite radical. If the PA stops collaborating with Israeli security in controlling Palestinians the US and EU will likely stop paying 100s of millions of dollars each year for the salaries of these Kapos. These security forces will obviously object. I fear it will lead to more fighting among the Palestinians.
It is, unfortunately, absolutely necessary. When the oppressor hires mercenaries to perform their dirty work, the fight for justice will have to be carried out against these mercenaries. This has been apparent for some time now and it is not clear how the non-violent resisters will prevail.
The Israelis have learned well from British colonialism. Hire native mercenaries to suppress the natives. Israel was quite successful in using Bedouin and Druze troops against the other Palestinians in the beginning and their ability to buy the foot soldiers serving under as Arafat was even a bigger coup. Reversing this will not be easy.
If a single killer used an automatic weapon to kill those 16 people then some very straightforward forensic analysis should have established that point. All it would require would be an investigative team to collect shell casings and the slugs recovered during autopsy and from the walls or whatever at the crime scene. The US military has experts in Afghanistan that can preform the analyses needed to determine if the same gun fired all of the rounds. This expertise is in place to track insurgent attacks against US troops.
If that evidence was not collected at the crime scene shortly after the attack then that should be considered prima facia evidence that the military is involved in a cover up.
seafoid the Russians did even a better one on Hitlers remains. They flushed him down the toilet and if any disciples wish to visit his last known resting place they will have to have their ceremony at the Biederitz sewage treatment plant on the Elbe River.
It was hardly a fair fight.
It is as fair as any effort to fight the Zionist lobby. They have more money than we do and they will spend it in political campaigns. That just goes with the territory.
I don’t think kalithea really meant to sound so anti-semitic.
Atzmon simply brings out the worst in many people.
Davis defines: true “liberal Zionist,” one whose expressions of decency are genuine rather than cynical,
That is the most accurate and succinct definition of liberal Zionist I've seen.
Piotr, but it not conjecture that they have the sunburn-S-22. They bought those from the Russians a decade back. This is the mach 1.8 missile, it is not known if they have the yakhonts, the mach 2.4 version that also has greater range.
Daniel that worked in 2003. The US military and intelligence are a little more wary today. They got snookered in 2002 when a small group of neocons inside the Pentagon successfully moved policy for war against Iraq. In fact, the 2007 NIE statement that concluded that Iran was not developing nuclear weapons represented a real bureaucratic rebellion by professional spooks and military against the neocon political intervention . General Franks realized he had been had when he described one of the most influential neocons as:
General Tommy Franks, who led both the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan and the Iraq War, once called Feith "the dumbest fucking guy on the planet." (from wikipedia).
Imagine his frustration arguing with Feith, who as a true blue Zionist, could ignore facts and simply spout party line.
In any case, I do believe that some things have changed inside intelligence and the military.
why is the assumption made that only a single ship would be involved – the Iranians have thousands of these super-sonic missiles.
Good question. On small correction: they have hundreds of the super-sonic missiles, the exocets, of which they may have close to a thousand are sub-sonic.
This Azeri airfield story has been out there for some time. It really does not make much military sense. Look at a map. The only ways for Israel to fly there and out is over Turkish or Iranian airspace (to avoid them would require a flight over Eastern Europe, the Black Sea and Georgia, not too practical). Once on the ground the airports would be in missile range of the Iranians. If the airport is in Southern Azerbijan, it would he highly tempting for the Iranians to attack it with ground forces (as would be their right under the rules of war).
In fact, I suspect that ground invasion would not be opposed by the Russians and who knows, maybe they would join in themselves to correct a geopolitical thorn in their side. The Azeris must have cut some kind of deal with the Israelis in exchange for big dollars from international Zionists but they couldn't possibly be dumb enough to actually allow Israel to draw it into war with Iran.
Absolutely correct pixel. That is why AIPAC is successful. What I hope is that one of these days an AIPAC targeted candidate will expose their involvement and make Israel the campaign issue. Should that happen and should AIPAC lose then the lobby's influence will be greatly weakened. But first one of these targeted candidates will have to be willing to make AIPAC and Israel the issue and run on it. Somehow, I think Kentucky would be a good place to do this. I doubt that there are many Kentuckians that have really given that much thought to Israel and if they realized that some foreign power was pouring money into their state, they just might have a negative reaction to that.
If AIPAC targets Rand Paul then it is possible that it would turn Israel into an issue in the Kentucky senate race. That could turn out to be very interesting. If that were to happen and AIPAC lost, then it would go a long way reducing AIPAC's influence in Washington.
The victims Dickerson mentions went down to defeat in campaigns that did not overtly deal with Israel. Should AIPAC target Paul, the first thing that would need to be done is publicize that effort and bring Israel directly before the Kentucky voters.
He could have chosen to study at Beir-Zeit university in Ramallah. Instead, he chose to study in Tel-Aviv. This doesn’t add up.
Institutions for Jews receive more government support that those for Palestinians. Barghouti is acting completely rationally taking advantages of a wealthier education.
I was in a similar position. As the son of an active communist I raised to distrust Capitalist institutions. When I received a fellowship to attend Harvard, I accepted it. Opportunistic, probably but definitely not hypocrisy.
Sorry Amed I think Hana Shalabi will have to die first. That is the nature of non violent political opposition to Zionist oppression of the Palestinians.
This is so insane. Americans demanding 'where is the Palestinian Gandhi?" And then ignoring nonviolent opposition to Israeli oppression. Hana may die but it is not clear that any news source inside the US will give a damn.
This is great. BDS works. Israel if you want to steal even more Palestinian land, then fully expect your diplomats and citizens to be thrown out of other countries. As long as you steal then feel the pain of exclusion when you travel abroad.
giladg I don't hate Israel. I have had too many good Israeli friends over the years to feel that way. Israel is like an unruly child -- sometimes it needs disciplining but that does not mean he who wields the rod hates the child.
BDS is our rod and we will wield it lovingly.
Sorry Hophmi, Phan left you on the floor writhing in agony with a left-right-left logical combination that you could not counter. To be sure you came back in later rounds with many smoke and mirrors trying to deflect your earlier beating. Like I said before -- it is highly entertaining watching an amateur like you get pummeled by a pro like Phan.
Another angle on how Israeli society is, in general, unhinged, or why an entire nation is in need of collective psychotherapy.
link to consortiumnews.com
I have difficulty in being too critical of Waskow or other progressive Israelis such as Uri Avnery for opposing BDS. After all these people devoted their lives to convincing the Israeli people to accept and make peace with their Palestinian neighbors. For them to embrace BDS would be to admit that their life's work failed.
This falls into the realm of denial or maybe even more extreme forms of delusion. As an example of the latter, Eitan Haber in a recent opinion about the killings in France writes:
Historians will give this new era a name. I call it the ’era of Arabs riding high.’ For the first time, after hundreds of years, 1.3 billion Muslims feel they have the power to run the world and bend it to Islam’s laws and customs. Where are they headed? As yet there are no defined directions, except Islamic rule – and if necessary, by the sword." (copied from today's Angry Arab).
This is the raving of the islamophobic, ultra-right, correct? Except Eitan is part of the Israeli left. When the establishment left has moved this far to the right, then it is time to ignore what the Israelis want any more. Bring on BDS and threaten them with financial ruin, their politics are so broken they cannot help themselves at this point.
Phan writes to Hophni:
Furthermore, it is fruitless to argue logic with people for whom defense of Israel is not based on logic.
I disagree. Phan's wiping the floor with Hophni using iron clad logic is highly entertaining. Hophni's only response is to transparently dissemble and distract and hope the audience has forgotten the two knock in the first two rounds.
Dance Hophni, dance you make a great clown.