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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
The state departments official definition of antisemitism must have been covered here at MW but I just noticed it recently. It is worth reminding ourselves of what it is:
link to state.gov
First they give a general definition of antisemitism followed with some examples, among others they include:
Contemporary Examples of Anti-Semitism
Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interest of their own nations.
What is Anti-Semitism Relative to Israel?
EXAMPLES of the ways in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel, taking into account the overall context could include:
DEMONIZE ISRAEL:
Using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism to characterize Israel or Israelis
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis
Blaming Israel for all inter-religious or political tensions
DOUBLE STANDARD FOR ISRAEL:
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation
Multilateral organizations focusing on Israel only for peace or human rights investigations
DELEGITIMIZE ISRAEL:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, and denying Israel the right to exist
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic.
This, it seems to me, is very close to an official US government definition of what constitutes hate speech. MJ must have noticed that "Israel firster" falls within one of the examples. Hate speech in US law can have serious criminal repercussions. So now AIPAC has their man heading that office.
David, I think you are performing an important task in your efforts to give the Sepharidim a voice. However, you are off base accusing Mossad of racism for not properly accounting for their plight inside Israel. The Palestinians enemy is the colonialist Ashkenazi Jews. It is only natural for him to focus on the Palestinians primary problem.
Also in spite of your efforts to give the Sephardim a voice, you do have to admit that a big majority of them are eager to be accepted as honorary white people and give their political support to the most extreme right wing parties. Those soccer fan thugs that break out into chants of 'death to the Arabs' whenever they encounter a Palestinian are predominantly Sephardim if I am not mistaken. I can't imagine a Palestinian intellectual becoming their advocate.
No sane intellect cares if the refugees fled of their own free will or otherwise.
I once believed the official Israeli story but considered it irrelevant for the reasons you make. However, this story is highly significant. It shows, yet again, that we were lied to about the events of Israel's founding. It shows the lengths that the Israelis will go to promote their lies. This is important because it help make the case that Israel and her supporters (either willingly or not) propagate lies and cannot be believed.
This helps provide the context for evaluating Israel's latest attempt to lie about the al Dura story and how to accept what Isabel Kirshner and the NYT are telling us.
annie, thanks for this. You do have have a good eye for a good and moving story.
When the US military, in the opening days of the war against Iraq after entering Baghdad, were killing journalist , newseum honored them including al-Jazeera cameraman Tarek Ayyoub. The US at that time accused Al Jazeera of propaganda but it seems that wasn't enough to deter the Newseum for honoring Tarek. Recall, Tony Blair and Bush discussed killing Al jazeera journalists at the time.
Is the lobby even more influential than the US military? I don't think so. The US had the sense to not make an issue of something that would go away if they remained silent. The lobby is thrashing about in desperation now -- they have so completely lost control of the message that anything they now try just blows up in their face. Be interesting to see what kind of revenge they will try to extract from the Boston Globe and what kind of blow back they attract doing that.
Instead those acts, will only bring the same amount of pressure from the other side.
And who will gain….. the Palestinians, No , the Israelis No.
The old curse on both of your houses, eh yrn.
That is the old argument to shut down debate. Open debate is not designed to "convince" the other side. The sides have made up their mind. Open debate is designed to expose the other side to the wider audience. And here BDS is winning politically. Israeli supporters are sounding more and more on the defensive because they realize at some level they have lost control of the message. The more they thrash around the less convincing they sound. Even when they "win" a round, like the recent Newseum blowup, they lose another chunk of their audience. Also each time the lobby exerts pressure on some establishment outlet (be it the Boston Globe, Newseum or the Church of Scotland) there are going to be even more former Israeli supporters (who are there because of financial and career reasons) that will silently resent that same lobby.
Each of these confrontations is positive, each results in less support for Israel and its political allies. And those silent resentments will grow until those holding them will realize they are no longer a minority and, in one short period, they will not be silent anymore.
Here's my letter to newseum:
Dear Mr Thompson
Many of us are saddened at your decision to not honor the two Palestinian reporters killed by the Israelis in Gaza last year. I guess the reason you did so was influenced by the reasoning of Abe Foxman who complained that “These men were working for a propaganda outlet, not a legitimate news organization.”.
I think you are going to get on a very slippery slope if you are now going to try to distinguish between propaganda outlets and legitimate news organizations. Would you refuse to honor a Fox News reporter who was killed by a government agency while collecting information? What about the Jerusalem Post? Pravda?
Your act here is very disappointing. I hope you apply the same standards next time an Israeli reporter is recommended for inclusion on your list.
Foxman: These men were working for a propaganda outlet, not a legitimate news organization.
Well that is going to disqualify any reporter from the Jerusalem Post, Channel 1 (?) and any number of other Israeli media outlets next time one gets offed as collateral damage or deliberate assassination. Stay tuned we now have a new political arena to open this debate.
J14 is a left wing Israeli movement that is based on economic justice. Israel was founded in a large part by European Jews who were socialists. They have a long tradition. However, from the very beginning it was a movement that explicitly excluded non-Jewish Palistinians. The commune movement of the Kibbutsim and the worker movement of the Hisrardot was based on the notion that only Jews should farm the land or be workers. Hisradot was already picketing construction jobs during the 1930s if the contractors hired Palestinians. This economic justice movement was from the very beginning a Jews only movement.
If the Palestinian farmers and laborers were actively excluded from the new economy that the Jews were building from the very beginning then it seems quite clear that these actions were designed for ethnic cleansing. (Hey if the farmers can't farm and the workers can't work, then immigration is the result -- unfortunately for Israel that didn't happen, too many were left behind that continue to demand their rights.)
It is no surprise that J14 would exclude the Palestinians. After all, J14 is descended from left wing Israelis that helped initiate the exclusion of the Palestinians from their new nation. It would be truly radical if they were to invite Palestinians into their notion of economic justice. Who knows, if they did that then they might have to consider political justice.
This is a major change. With the NY Times corp owning the Boston Globe one would not have thought that the editors would not have been given that much freedom. What does this mean?
The explanation I prefer is that the lobby has suddenly lost much of its influence. Maybe it was one very courageous editor that is nearing retirement and wants to do the right thing as he leaves. Another factor, is that advertising revenues are not as important to profitability so the paper is less vulnerable to boycotts. Whatever, this represents something new.
I do love Noam Chomsky even though I disagree with his over-all political sense of what is happening in Israel. If he helped move Hawking then more power to Chompsky.
I find it very distasteful to see criticisms of Finklestein and Chomsky because they lack proper ideological views of the Big Picture. I think my big picture is better than theirs, but it doesn't even compare to their clear critiques of how Israel is oppressing the Palestinians. Right now bringing that story to the American people is much more important than what we all think is the ideal solution to the problem. Once Americans begin to see what the problem really is, then we can debate on how to solve it.
Henry, I was just guessing. I have no idea how these sites make their money. In any case, if change.org can prosper promoting petitions like this than more power to them. I just thought it was interesting that they would use BDS as an avenue to support Obama's policies. Ironic, don't you think?
Change.org Inc is a for profit organization that hosts petitions for progressive causes. I think their business plan is to bill the sponsor of the petition for each signature. I wonder if they are using the Hawking thank-you as a loss leader to attract people to sign paying petitions?
Now that would be a weird development if BDS/Hawking is being used as a draw to gain support for Obama?
So a Zionist organization, Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, threatens to pick up its marbles and go home if Newseum doesn't back down. And it looks like they won't back down. Isn't this what we want -- isn't that what BDS is all about, isolating Israeli institutions?
This hysterical reaction on the part of Israelis, especially many of the liberal Zionists, is an encouraging sign. The message from BDS seems to be percolating through their thick skulls. Of course, the initial reaction will be to circle the wagons and become even more fanatically expansionist -- that is a normal psychological response. But it is a sign that the message is beginning to penetrate. Perhaps it will result in some sober reflection, if not today then maybe later.
This absence of dialogue is a good thing.
Well Phil is growing into a real radical. I like it. This reminds me of the civil rights dialogue that was happening in the late 50s and early 60s. I remember being part of one of these big sessions in school. All of these white people were spouting off with their racists views and were totally oblivious to how offensive they sounded to the minorities and the few lefties like myself. Those discussions went no where. But the civil rights movement did. It is not that we won these people over in argument but that there views were roundly denounced as unacceptable. So they stopped saying stuff like that in public. And slowly, racist views declined in America, mostly through the new generations not being exposed to the poison.
be infamous in history for his Morgenthau Plan to reduce Germany to poverty after World War Two.
What exactly are your talking about here?
Sorry Mirriam. You do not make the case. Intel is an American company. It is one very creative company. It is not Israeli. What you say above does not change that fact. I know you want to claim cherry tomatoes and hummus and many other things but they are not yours. No more than Intel chips are yours.
Just googled around a bit and it seems that the chip in question was developed in an Intel company in Oregon (that is in the US, not Israel).
Last I looked it was:
69% Yes
31% No
As far as I know Intel is an American company. Can anyone explain why the hasbarists continue to claim Intel inventions are from Israel? Yes, yes I know that they have a presence in Israel but that does not mean their chips are Israeli.
Even if Dersh is "winning' these arguments because the audience and Peter can't distinguish the truth from a lie, he is still slowly losing. The receptive audience is mostly already convinced, older American Jews who will accept any new fact to bolster their love of Israel. But the audience is getting smaller so Dersh is losing this debate one funeral at a time.
Shmuel, it did not occur to me before that the old Hebrew religion had many calve deities. Isn't there also some notion if a truly red calf is born in Israel, then to this day it means that Israel can begin to rebuild their temple on the Dome of the Rock.
What a hoot. WWIII happens because a sacred red calf is born. And this happens 2,500 years after the old testament fanatics suppress the worship of the the Golden Calf and their followers destroy the world over a red calf.
Now that would be ironic. What goes around comes around I guess.
Just a general sense that people from Central Asia and the steppes were cattle herders, they migrated and invaded the ME on multiple occasions and cattle were central to their religion. Aryans is very vague term to describe those people.
Wish you were right Miriam but we all know that probably more than 80% of Israelis approve of torture prisons for Arab prisoners only.
Please stop demonizing the Golden Calf. That represented our Aryan ancestors Cattle deity. It was a much more practical deity than that ridiculous desert sky god imported by the Jews and Christians.
annie says: tgia, not sure if the individual members of these militias see themselves as such.
Absolutely correct annie. Once those fools realize that they are in effect fighting inside an alliance that involves Zionist forces, that alliance will unravel quickly. To be sure many of them are mercenaries being paid paid by the Gulf monarchies but they are also motivated by religious conviction. Once it enters into their thick skulls that they are fighting on the side of US imperialism and Zionism, I suspect there could some interesting changes in loyalties.
Good links annie. I suspect that the Turkish public is more politically sophisticated than your average Westerner. Their government is also aware of the dangerous game that they are playing (from your link):
“These are manipulative reports which have nothing to do with the reality,” a Turkish Foreign Ministry official told Hürriyet Daily News.
As Claude Cockburn once said "never believe a story until it is officially denied". We should accept that the Turkish government has entered into secret agreements with Israel. I hope that the Turkish people will deal properly with the current Muslim Brotherhood government.
annie, I think biorabbi is on to something. This is evidence of a secret understanding between Israel, the FSA, Turkey and probably the Gulf monarchies to destroy the Syrian government. The fact that Barak was in Istanbul recently is probably relevant (link to 972mag.com).
This information needs to be widely known. The anti-Assad forces are working with the Zionists. We all know that a majority of the Turkish public have been against their government's involvement in this war against Syria. If the Turkish public realizes that means they are now allied with Israel in this war then it seems only natural that a strong public opposition could emerge. This could be the issue to undermine public support for the Turkish Muslim Brotherhood movement. This could be an issue that could topple the current government.
It seems totally insane to me that the Western supported puppet regimes in the ME could survive if those regimes are openly identified with US and Israeli wars against brother Muslims in Syria.
I agree that so far Israel's military acts are not really significant. The important message is that the FSA, Turkey, the Gulf monarchies and Israel are in an alliance against a Muslim state. This will strengthen the Iran-Iraq-Syria-Hezbollah coalition -- the message being sent out to the Arab world is that is the true anti-Zionist coalition while those who ally with Israel and the US are the traitors. It is probably the best news Assad could desired.
Now that Israel is openly backing the FSA and their Al qaida militias will have major political reactions in the ME. Turkey's support for the rebels has never had a majority backing of its people. This will likely result in more direct popular opposition to their government's role. No way that the Turkish people will support an Israeli attack on a fellow Muslim nation. I suspect we will also see more active support for the Assad government in Egypt. Even the Saudi and Qatar backed militias inside Syria will begin wondering if entering into an alliance with Israel is such a good idea. I have no idea how the internal politics inside the Gulf monarchies work, but there must be some serious doubts even there about where their governments are leading them.
Hard to predict how this will play out but I am leaning towards the notion that the US and Israel will be big losers in whatever happens. At least we will be even more diplomatically and politically isolated from the rest of the ME.
Two people have already pointed out Landis actually supported the beginning of the Syrian uprising before the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafists turned it into a civil war. And to some extent he still backs them.
However, he is deviating from the neocon party line by arguing for the US not to become militarily involved so they will try to smear him for having dual loyalties. This coming from a WINEP clown is too much. With them we are not even talking about dual loyalty, their only loyalty is to the state of Israel, pure unadulterated agents for a foreign state.
Rather than a 1-1 land swap of territory, there should be a 2 to 1 ratio.
The land that was first mentioned in the land swaps was for Israel to give up parts of the Negev Desert for WB land containing the up land aquifers. If we go by farm prices in California (much water) for parched range land in Nevada the ratio should be closer to 100:1.
Thanks annie. I thought something like this might be happening. I waited a bit before complaining. I do realize that MW is supported by volunteer help and backlogs like this can occur.
I am puzzled about something. I posted the following over 24 hours back"
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
April 30, 2013 at 5:16 pm
This is a pretty good advocacy for a one state solution. Perhaps as one of many who believes that the two-state solution is likely dead but could have worked and maybe be salvaged today if Israel would agree, let me defend two states.
First the path towards one-state would be on Israeli terms. Today those terms are the apartheid solution. Perhaps if that started to break down, we would have to also consider active ethnic cleansings and various degrees of mass killings — Israel certainly has the willingness to carry out such acts. Most rational observers believe that these are acts that won’t work in the long term. However, the short term could still be many decades and in the meantime another one, two or more generations of Palestinians would be suffering under Israeli oppression. There is a human cost here that should be unacceptable. Also in the next few decades we could see another world war — such an event would open the doors to genocide. That could be irreversible.
The advantage of the two state solution is, if Israel willing, a solution could be found tomorrow. International law and political support is already in place. The problem with the one-state solution is that the world is not yet prepared to accept such a result. There would be real inertia in dismantling or abandoning all of those policies and treaties devoted to the two state outcome.
Why is that waiting moderation? There have been a number of other comments posted after that. Are my comments here considered to
inflammatory? I mention this now because in the last few weeks some of my comments have been held up for one or two days. Is this some kind of hint that my comments are not welcome? Let me know. I will go elsewhere.
This is a pretty good advocacy for a one state solution. Perhaps as one of many who believes that the two-state solution is likely dead but could have worked and maybe be salvaged today if Israel would agree, let me defend two states.
First the path towards one-state would be on Israeli terms. Today those terms are the apartheid solution. Perhaps if that started to break down, we would have to also consider active ethnic cleansings and various degrees of mass killings -- Israel certainly has the willingness to carry out such acts. Most rational observers believe that these are acts that won't work in the long term. However, the short term could still be many decades and in the meantime another one, two or more generations of Palestinians would be suffering under Israeli oppression. There is a human cost here that should be unacceptable. Also in the next few decades we could see another world war -- such an event would open the doors to genocide. That could be irreversible.
The advantage of the two state solution is, if Israel willing, a solution could be found tomorrow. International law and political support is already in place. The problem with the one-state solution is that the world is not yet prepared to accept such a result. There would be real inertia in dismantling or abandoning all of those policies and treaties devoted to the two state outcome.
what are they waiting for? Abbas is waiting for the next payment from his international backers. This is the structure for managing the Palestinians that the US set up during the Oslo process.
Palestinians cannot begin to resist until they get rid of the PA.
I knew Dershowitz in the early 80s in my participation in a group that discussed Israel. At the time I thought he was genuinely interested in some kind of solution to the IP problem that would provide the Palestinians with some autonomy and civil rights. He was of course so obsessed with Israeli security that it was difficult for him to show much empathy for the Palestinians.
After the collapse of the Oslo process in Camp David in 1999 and especially after cast lead in 2009, I listened to his continued defense of Israel. I was puzzled about one thing -- was he dissembling and dishonest when I knew him or had he changed in the meantime to an unrepentant annexationist.
This is an interesting story here with his reception in NY. My either/or explanation looks like it was wrong, there is a third possibility that he was as deceived as I was in 1980 about Israel's intentions and has continued with the delusion since. This is not really that surprising since those us of who knew him then did not consider him one of the sharpest knives in the drawer when it came to complex analysis. Glib to be sure and very fast on his feet with the clever retort but beyond that not too smart. And quite entertaining in any group.
Olmert makes the sensible suggestion in NY that Israel can not rule the WB and he is booed and jeered by a presumably American Jewish audience. This I believe is the reality of the tribal thinking among those who identify with Israel.
How long has it been that these people knew the whole Oslo process was a sham? It didn't occur to me untill about 2000 or so. This is not going to end well for either Israelis or Palestinians. American Jews should do OK though.
These Israeli policies to keep out those who do not support the Zionist enterprise is perfectly understandable. Therefore, those who want to enter Israel and visit the Palestinians will have to revert to subterfuge. Indeed, the birthright trips provide the perfect avenue. What it means is that veterans like Frank Barat will be excluded. But it does open upon up the opportunity to send in young Jews who sympathize with Palestinian rights. This should be considered a positive opportunity in the sense that young recruits can gain experience.
In fact, we know that the birthright tours are already being used for this purpose. Shabak, you better wake up -- do not trust all of those bright eyed and bushy tailed proto-Zionists from Europe and the US that you eagerly welcome. There is without doubt many that harbor views sympathetic to Palestinian rights. You guys should watch those birthright tourists much more carefully; they are after all potential subversives.
I like this quote from Khalidi where he is talking about what academics and officials know about partition.
On the one hand, people know. On the other hand, they can’t say.
I have to say that applies to me in my public life. I know this is true for most of my colleagues both at work and in politics. Many important people do know. And some day they will say. I suspect it will happen suddenly but when is the big puzzle.
This is a very bold article by Levy. Surely, he must know that a one person/one vote state would lead to the loss of Israel as a Jewish state. Just as surely one person/ one vote led to the elimination of the Afrikaaner government of South Africa.
This the problem with Falk. Every time he shows up we get these crazed notions that the collapse of the trade towers were some kind of controlled demolitions.
Sorry boobs, but the collapse of those towers was caused by jet airliners crashing into them. The physics and engineering principles are clear. Once a big building starts to fall down, the potential energy stored inside that structure begins to become kinetic energy and it overwhelms the strengthen of the building.
Once those airliners hit the buildings they released hundreds of gallons of fuel. When that started to burn it released heat that then undermined the load bearing strength of the structural steal that supported the buildings. It did not require that the structural steel melt, it simply meant the the load bearing strength was undermined.
In any case we are not going to repeat the arguments that have been going on for a decade now, it does mean that anytime this fool Falk appears that crazed 911 truthers come out in force.
It is just too sad. There are many unanswered questions surrounding those events on 911 but they cannot be rationally discussed because of the insanity that the truthers bring and dominate any discussion. You who do this are nothing more than useful fools for those who wish to avoid the real discussion.
I find it tedious having to defend Richard Falk. He should write with a little more finesse. He sets himself up for these assaults. He displayed egregiously poor judgement defending the 911 truther David Ray Griffin. I look forward to his retirement.
Exactly right annie. Susan Rice's name was floated out there for SoS, the Republicans pounced and there was very little push back from Democrats.
I know I wrote in opposition because of her advocating the Libyan war. Her withered effort at state is to be compared to the backing Hagel received who was attacked even more fervently that Rice had been.
Harry, surely Labor and the Torries could run candidates in NI? I thought the problem was that neither side would vote for them?
Walt discusses this report from China today on his blog: link to walt.foreignpolicy.com
That DNC vote was definitely very interesting. What was quite interesting is that those running the convention did not see it coming. Very slowly there is growing opposition to Israel everywhere in US society. For the most part it is not openly organized. But on that day, we saw a spontaneous demonstration among grass roots democrats. I have a sense of this happening but surely was surprised to see this demonstration on the convention floor. I am active in the Democratic Party and can say that in our club Israel/Palestine is absolutely never discussed. However, every once in a while a hint comes out from one person or another indicating discomfort with US policy. So far this has not led to any open discussions because the topic is just too toxic. We all know where the national party raises its funds.
rjl says: his comment will not help foster any meaningful negotiations between Palestinians and Israelis
I suspect Kerry's comment was likely motivated by Israel's immediate rejection for his plan to restart the IP negotiations. This happened in the last two weeks. Kerry is seriously pissed. He is sending a signal to Netanyahu: If you think you can continue to humiliate the US government without impunity this is what I can do. Of course the Israelis believe they can do this because they control the house and senate. But they do not control the State Department. Kerry is using the one tool he has to communicate with the Israelis.
It is Netanyahu that opposes meaningful negotiations, Kerry is trying to undermine that opposition. Kerry is foolish to even try, IMHO, because eventually Israel will go back to the US Congress with their Lobby allies, and reinforce discipline.
the Mavi Marmara crew, went with the EXPRESS intention of PROVOKING Israel
Yes that is true. MLK most certainly went to Birmingham in the summer of 1963 to provoke a reaction and he hit a political gold mine when he provoked Bull Connor and the KKK bombers.
Kerry's words are very interesting. He is giving those Turk victims a certain level of recognition for what they were -- non-violent resisters of state oppression. He is acknowledging their status as martyrs. If I were Israel this should be very worrisome. There reached a point when every time Bull Connor bellowed about law'n-order and outside agitator millions of civilized Americans cringed in disgust. Israel could be approaching a similar point -- perhaps not repelling a majority of Americans but enough to endanger long term support for Israel.