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Total number of comments: 723 (since 2010-07-08 12:35:09)

tokyobk

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  • Peter Beinart demolishes Gaza hasbara
    • Though Peter said that about liberal Zionism because he as always tried to keep his beliefs reality based. Others have simply said "What? What occupation, what discrimination? Where?" and the ignored contradictions between enshrining ethnic nationalism in the state versus democracy.

      He and others who have the understanding that what they believe must conform to and be explained by what actually is, will reformulate and some will stop calling themselves Zionist. He can't and won't ignore the consequences of Gaza. Why now and not 2009? A few reasons why this is different. Mainly, the lead up and motivations for this are not deniable and so the rationalization is not believable. 2009 was mostly discussed among those interested and partisan. This time the twitter feed and the horrific imagery has broken into the mainstream. People who have had no personal or ideological attachment to I/P are believing their own eyes and what it looks like to them is a massacre. That can't really be contextualized.

      Israel is simply behind the curve of a narrative it used to completely own and is flailing.

      In terms of PR abilities, Dermer is no Oren either. No where near the former ambassador to the US in talking skills.

  • Will 'Protective Edge' galvanize the US mainstream, as 'Cast Lead' galvanized the left?
    • Strangely everything you wrote, word for word, could have been in an AIPAC fundraising letter, and is literally the justification given for the wall.

      I also don't think Hamas can be crushed and I don't think Israel wants to because next would be a one of the two regional groups. I think the plan of this government is to try to pound the sumud out of the Palestinians, also impossible. And to break up Hamas/PA alliances which I think they have done.

  • To my Jewish friend (you know who you are)
    • A pre-emptive and prognosticated boycott of Jews (ex. Phil and Adam, thankfully!) Unless you meant that after 2009 you started your BDS of your Jewish friends, but I think you wrote from your heart, and strangely in support of an argument often made against BDS that it is indiscriminate and antisemitic.

      Though, you are completely right in closing. The lack of self-awareness of many Jews is terrifying. Despicable, really. It seems to me that many Jews I know and online either don't know or don't care about what has been said about and done to our people for centuries.

      Seafoid is not entirely wrong I must admit. In some ways we are seeing an end of the Judaism we thought we knew.

      It frankly is indeed well time for anyone who identifies as Jewish to answer the questions: Do you accept this in your name? and, how many Palestinian lives claimed, especially children's lives, is an ethnically supremacist Jewish State worth?

      Any answer over 0 is troubling.

  • Video: Celebrities, artists and activists call for Palestinian freedom in #GazaNames project
    • My guess, Citizen is that as soon as you say Israel your friends and family stop listening because they know its a 1/2 step from "Israel" to "the Jews" with you, and (as you have said here before) how we don't give David Duke's ideas enough of a chance, etc... They probably see that kind of discussion as a fixed cost not worth paying.

      I actually have come to suspect you are probably a nice person in real life in the ways that matter. My guess is that if my car broke down in front of your house and I rang your bell you would help me get to a mechanic.

      The thinking you display here though is bigoted and essentialist (permanently innocent and authentic but slightly dopey non Jewish Americans- Dick and Jane you call them, manipulated by an eternal carpetbagging cosmopolite i.e. The Jews).

      You once, for example, asked which side of Obama's ancestry you should blame for his ineptness on I/P, the black side or white, when of course the answer is neither, since ethnicity does influence choices but from politics not genetics.

      Fortunately for the rights movement in I/P more and more Jews are going to get in the game publicly and privately. And more and more non-Jews who cannot be construed as anti-Jewish bigots in any way, who don't have a racist bone in their bodies, are seeing Gaza in human terms. Since, despite your ideas, American non-Jews have been zionist for their own reasons since the creation of Israel. You may even come to disregard your own thesis.

  • As in Vietnam and South Africa, Gazan masses are willing to pay high price for freedom -- Kasrils
    • The tunnel networks in Vietnam were presented at the time as proof of the rodent barbarity of the VC, yet now in retrospectives the willingness to live in caves for months under severe bombing by the most advanced technology is depicted as nothing less than iron and moreover super-human will.

      The tunnels are even on the tour maps of Western visitors to rebuilt Vietnam. They are proud of them because they provided the brain network of an invisible army who could coordinate the downing of a brand new million dollar plane with WWII and Korean era equipment.

      I understand why the tunnels are frightful to Israelis as a problem of an advancing army but what it says to me is that they need to come to there realization that a people willing to tunnel is basically never going to be conquered. Ever. The goal of finally and forever subduing the Palestinians is impossible.

      Therefore the only option is peace and reconciliation based on equality.

  • Which crowded cities can you fire into?
    • NCINA,

      "I couldn’t give a hoot about the world or public opinion."

      But the world gives a hoot about the actions of your government whether you think that scrutiny is fair or unfair, increasingly.

      Look at the numbers, especially among the young. I am interested in the numbers among American Jews over the next years. My guess is they will remain higher but skew with the young and non-white (I assume they did not poll non white Jews separately though we exist) which are plummeting.

      Israel cannot last as an island or a fortress for very many decades. Do you think it can?

      And the case "we don't target civilians" is incoherent given the human landscape in Gaza. That is how most normal people will see it, especially with images not just brought into their living room like TV did in Viet Nam but into their electronic scrapbooks which is where pictures of other humans we know and like go.

  • U.S. casts lonely vote against establishing war crimes inquiry in Gaza
    • Keith I don't disagree with you at all on your grim prognosis or that this war is about destroying Hamas. That goal is obviously shared by the US and makes my point that they have their own reasons for being involved there besides "Jewish money."

      Yes, of course the US wants strips of land and in fact stakes its empire on them.

      You guys do know that the war in the Pacific was fought over strips of land, right, and won by their steady capturing? You have seen a picture of Midway? Do you think they fought to the death at Iwo Jima over sulfur? And the US prescience now in Asia, which it considered is new pivot, is mostly strips, small airfields. The Suez is a (giant) strip of land as well. etc...

      The US has its own reasons for wanting to control Israel. Its a dialogue, dysfunctional as it is and perhaps scrapped in the future. If not Israel than the PA which is why it has seduced Abbas.

    • Donald, I was thinking of the most recent Pew which depicts as you say the republican aspect but I think among Christian democrats it is still above 50% pro Israel though that may change. Someone insistent on the Jewish element will say the Jews own all the media so that is why Christians are Zionist but I don't think that is true and I also don't think that explains US foreign policy interests which as of now are perceived as overlapping. I think if anyone can convince the US that Israel is not worth it, it is Bibi though and he sure seems to be trying.

    • Do tell Amigo, what are those exceptions?

      Seafoid, "Jewish" money may buy senators but it does not buy Christian zionism and does not fully explain why the US wants that strip of land for its own empire purposes.

    • I think the general Japanese sentiment leans towards Palestinians. This comes from not having any predisposed dislike of Arabs, Muslims and most of all a reflexive dislike of (and embarrassment regarding) nationalism, especially armed and dangerous nationalism. So when things flare up there mostly what I hear is what is wrong with Israel that they are doing this? The average government bureaucrat is "Arabist" in outlook because of the above but also because Japan needs oil (has always needed to import 100% of its oil which was a big reason for WWII). Japanese academics who deal with the subject tend to be very critical of Israel at the least and more often than not actively pro-Palestinian.
      I still keep a subscription to the high school paper I used to first decipher written Japanese, because it tells me what Japan want to tell its children. The coverage on I/P carries the same sentiment, I think.
      But, Japan has an issue much more important to it than any other, certainly than any far away conflagration, and that is looming, rising China and for this reason it always keeps America closest, whether it feels friendly or unfriendly, in agreement or disagreement.
      I read "Abstain" in this way.

  • Avishai says we misrepresented his views
    • I actually never had a problem with Mooser, why would I? He seems like a funny old guy. And I understand he is popular here, and I understand why he is popular here but for whatever reason he has come at me unrelentingly and most annoyingly he reinterprets everything I say pretty much with the exact opposite meaning and tells me its what I really mean. I find that to be dishonest and bullying and, why should I take that. No one here likes a bully.

      Yes the details and the nuances matter which is why I would rather not be turned into Mooser's 2d image of me especially when he has to misrepresent my words and intentions to do so. Can you understand that?

      I just have no idea why the guy has such a hard on for me.

    • Wow, I have you spooked Mooser. You are now referring to our conversions even when we aren't having them. And your bizarro (literally, remember that character form superman) interpretations astound me.

      Actually the term historic Palestine is useful for exactly the opposite reason you insinuate (imagine that). I use that term to mean the river to the sea, everywhere precisely to make clear I am not just talking about 1948 boarders but the entire county, because while a liberal Zionist wants to make a big deal about separation between Israel proper and the OT's and Golan and Gaza, I think that in a one state situation you have to include all of the relevant lands of historic Palestine.

      But, you know everything so there is no telling you anything, even the truth.

    • Mooser: "Okay, than we both agree, all settlements should be removed, every Israeli who has served in the government or IDF should be investigated for criminal activities and war crimes, Israel brought before the ICC, full compensation should be paid to all Palestinians affected by the Zionists
      and any Israeli (non-criminal, of course, if there’s any left) who wishes to remain can stay, as a Palestinian citizen, if, and only if, they get permission from the Palestinians, and after the Palestinians have received full compensation and justice. To be paid by Israel, not the US, damn it.
      I’m glad we agree on these things. I’m sure you agree it’s the only possible and just solution. And I’d like to see a program exposing all Jewish kids to the crimes of the Zionists as part of their religious education.
      That lucid enough for ya?"

      You are talking about a truth and reconciliation process similar to South Africa ending Apartheid and yes something like that would have to happen in a future state based on equality, otherwise it would not be equality. Hell yes on the settlements. I don't know if we share thoughts all the details but certainly, material compensation and right of return has to happen. In short, all forms of defacto and dejure inequality must be ended and redressed. I should say my standard would be international law also considering the rights of Jewish citizens to remain safely, not what Mooser things is fair (no offence to your mighty ego since you believe yourself to be the paragon of justice and its emissary here) but I am sure we are close, and more importently to this bizarre conversation, closer-- far closer than anyone who really thinks the things you insist I think. Again do you not see the monstrously inflated sense of self you have (probably covering up a not so monstrous sense of self) that you hold you and you alone to be the model for fairness and justice? If anyone falls short they are not only wrong but bad. There are DSM notes on that my friend.

      Since you have a problem with interior and exterior minds:
      Your fawning and bullying on behalf of your position as the mashgiach in charge of kashering the comment section of MW -is visible to me- so not an example at all of reading a soul. I just need to read the comment sections and see how you treat me and others who you feel challenge your primacy (which by the way were not). On the other hand you telling me consistently that I believe something -other than what I make visible- is an example of soul reading. Do you understand the difference? Probably not

      Also, and by way of example, you say I was making a homophobic slur but I did not know for sure your gender (of course I suspected based on your alpha gorilla behaviour that you were male) so assuming everything inside your head is known to others is also a form of narcissism consistent with your belief that know what other's think, even more than they do. Ok, off to cook dinner. Its been real and you have gotten me to think more clearly about how I approach this huge problem in our world. So thanks for that and see you again, probably gumming my ankle alas.

    • “That said, I can’t really see much difference between philosophically me and other people who reject the idea of a Jewish national state in historical Palestine and who wand there to be one state where all have equal rights.”

      "Which is just a really sleazy way of saying you want the Zionist to keep what they have stolen, and not be called to account for their actions. And how the hell can a state be a “Jewish national state” and have equal rights for all. If it’s got “equal rights for all” than it is not a Jewish national State is it?"

      Yes, Mooser that is just what it means. It means no Jewish national state, doesn't it? Now, someone who writes that kind of sentence is A) Zionist or B) Not Zionist ? Pick one and please remember the definition of Zionist is someone who believes in a Jewish state in historic Palestine, not someone who believes that Mooser is a tad paranoid and a bit of a narcissist because he thinks he knows a person really means "not X" when they say "X."

      "You are just a Zionist who won’t admit it, or thinks he can hide it. And all that subterfuge, misdirection (Jewish social group? WTF?) and most of all your cowardice."

      Again, you should be worried (as in talk to a professional) that you actually believe you can see into another person's heart and know them better than they know themselves. It is also a sign of narcissism to think that people who don't live up to your standards are cowards. I don't think passing Mooser's purity test makes me brave. I am quite happy in the company of the many people who are actively (meaning not just on websites) engaged in this issue in an ethical way, who reject Jewish nationalism but don't call themselves anti-Zionist.

    • “That said, I can’t really see much difference between philosophically me and other people who reject the idea of a Jewish national state in historical Palestine and who wand there to be one state where all have equal rights.”

      "Which is just a really sleazy way of saying you want the Zionist to keep what they have stolen, and not be called to account for their actions. And how the hell can a state be a “Jewish national state” and have equal rights for all. If it’s got “equal rights for all” than it is not a Jewish national State is it?

      Uhm no, Mooser its a way of saying that I reject the idea of a Jewish state in historic Palestine just as anti-Zionists do and I believe that there should be one single state where every person has one vote just as anti-Zionists do, because there is no daylight between my ideas and an anti-Zionists ideas though I don't give myself the label. How, Mooser, how area you going to spin that into the exact opposite of what it transparently means? I know you can because you always do but wow. Just read what I say Mooser. Its pretty plain. I reject all aspects of the Jewish state. Reject without any reservation. Reject Jewish supremacy in any form especially as the claim behind a state in historic Palestine. I reject this as clearly as Ali Abunimah in his book One State which I regard as the only ethical solution in Israel/Palestine. Got it? Or is your need to be right and to kasher the MW kitchen more important than allowing someone to mean what they say, repeatedly.

      "Aww how nice, you finish up with a nice homophobic slur. You never disappoint."

      Wait, what's homophobic about that? Nothing wrong with same sex love of any kind and clearly you have a crush on Phil (I kind of do too though I suspect he likes you better) and want to be the number one in the comment section, deciding who is fit and who is not. I think that is the root of your problem with me and others who clearly are not Zionist who comment here that you flash your teeth at (sorry feline phobic reference)

      “Non-Zionism is actually an important ethical tradition which includes a lot of people that are admired here at MW. “

      "So now you are just making up stuff. “An important ethical tradition”? Going back 15 minutes?"

      No I go back to the beginning of Zionism and I am referring to Finkelstein and others who have called themselves things other than anti-Zionist. The Mooser test of Purity.

      Unfortunately this crisis is going to continue. Fortunately more and more people like me, including Jews are going to speak up and say that the price is not worth it and that nationalism must be denuded in every form including Jewish nationalism.

    • Non-Zionism is actually an important ethical tradition which includes a lot of people that are admired here at MW. In fact, the last time I spoke personally to Phil Weiss he said to me he was a non-Zionist, so I guess you have to kick him out of your special club for the Holy and Pure of mind and spirit. He may have changed what he calls himself and I would understand why but frankly Mooser, your snarking at MW is not really much of a contribution to the cause however important you feel being the crossing guard here is. I am happy to be in the company of people who feel committed to equal rights in Israel and Palestine and don't pass th much vaunted Mooser sniff test of "anti-Zionist."

    • Obviously I don't think Zionism makes us stronger. I think Nationalism is seductive. My point. I was going to add that I don't call myself an anti-Zionist because of the other people who do who tend to be self-righteous, but you kind of put that on display perfectly. You are one perfect being with the gift of insight into human souls, Mooser.

      That said, I can't really see much difference between philosophically me and other people who reject the idea of a Jewish national state in historical Palestine and who wand there to be one state where all have equal rights. That is the substance.

      Sure I have pointed out time to time things to Phil about the comments and his Facebook page. Ask him. Its not really my place to control either but I can have my opinions just as you.

      About Israel, I thought from one of your posts that you mentioned being in Israel but I do apologise for the incorrect assumption.

      My opinion of you is that you want to be king Jew-splainer here and that is more important to you than anything on this issue. For some reason I set you off and I still can't figure out what is its but I don't really think its about Israel or Zionism.
      The upcoming MW prom? Don't worry, Phil is definitely asking you not me. I am not his type either.

      Anyway, I am sure you agree there are many more important things to talk about, and we should end this. Just stop lying about what I say. Thanks.

    • Yes, Mooser, you are mistaken as I keep telling you. You are misreading me. How many times have I not said it. And don't have to apologize but if you care about honesty you should indeed stop reversing what I say or as above asking me questions as if what I say is only some Jewish Hudna so that Zionism can come back and win. In this moment especially, where a father in Gaza had to go to two different morgues to pick up each half of his blown up daughter, your and my shpilkes is really irrelevant but because I think there are larger points I will try again to tell you that I would never waste my time pulling a trick on the MW comment section. These issues matter to me greatly and I am being serious.

      I keep telling you and have been for a while I am not a Jewish nationalist of any kind and you keep telling me I am. You keep purposely, or insanely or stupidly reading back to me the exact opposite of what I mean.

      I am also being 100% genuine when I say that when you take off the clown mask and write lucidly about Zionism and Israel (and Judaism/Zionism) I agree with you almost to the letter. I am amazed at your refusal to believe this even though I keep telling you. What is it? What about you makes you able to see into the hearts of men and what about me makes you insist I am not being genuine.

      Liberal Zionism has always been contradictory and there are no circumstances under which those contractions would not exist. There have been however circumstances in which those contradictions were hidden or disregarded. The internet, cellphones, many other factors especially the recent Gaza incursion make it impossible to hide them. Also the formal state engagement with the West Bank blurs the green line and this is terrible news for people like Peter Beinart who want to make those distinctions rigid.

      Now, I don't call myself and anti-Zionist for reasons we can discuss (please, please, please Mosser don't run around the end zone with the nerf football on this, trust me its a label. please stay focused for a moment. Mooser! put it down. put.down. the. nerf.) ok thanks...) I consider myself non-Zionist in substance, I cannot see any distinction between what I believe and what you seem to believe in your lucid moments. I am a non Zionist. I used to be a 2 state solution person because I thought it was a good stop of war and start of humans living together. I am now in light of undeniable reality as much as a one stater as Ali Abuminah.

      You made Aliyah, right? I think one of your posts indicated that. Or, that you spent serious time there. So why would you feel in the position to judge anyone. Because you know I am involved in a Jewish social group? My involvement was precisely because I am interested in real dialogue not in group think. Or because I call our antisemtiism where I see it here. Yes, I think a few regular commenters here are anti-Semites or close to it. And, btw, in fact I have had many opportunities to take money from Israel and I don't mean a birthright trip. I probably could have finagled myself onto an air force jet back when they still let non IAF take that ride. But I never have. I never let myself get hooked that way realizing the power of tribe, the power of nationalism. Hatikva does give me goosebumps, the though of Jews being powerful is alluring to me. That is exactly why I fear nationalism, anybody's and ours first of all. I don't judge you Mr. Moose, in fact I also laugh at your jibes sometimes, but I just don't understand why you think you can judge me on this issue.

      So, quit ankle gumming me and let's both focus on what's important which is in our own ways letting other people Jewish and not that the issues in I/P are human rights issues not tribal issues and the only solutions are those already figured out in the last 300 years of ever unfolding rights. If someone does come here who indeed was questioning the issues, as you have thought incorrectly of me, how about lending them a hand instead of a jeer?

    • "I got as far as “Wiessworld”. What the hell is he, 12 yrs. old?"

      I completely agree with you, Mooser. That kind of snark is usually a sign of immaturity and a serious inferiority complex which at least in Avishai's case is odd because he is an accomplished writer.

      Find it kind of odd its -you- saying it, though.

      And, btw, I also agree with your well made point on saving Judaism from rather than for Jewish nationalism. Seriously well put. Liberal Zionism cannot sustain its moral and intellectual contradictions in light of a Gaza assault that everyone can see with their own eyes. And the blurring green line is too obvious now as well.

      I would say "Ditto" but you give snarky names to people who say ditto!

  • On ‘Death to Arabs’ in Jerusalem & Tel Aviv
    • Horton Hears a Who is fitting in another way to the story of changing perspectives -- and I believe the US in general is undergoing a mind shift on I/P.

      The children's book was of course written of course by Dr. Seuss who shared much of America's fear and suspicion of Japanese people, including Japanese Americans. If you look at the propaganda cartoons he made they are no less stereotypically drawn than other contemporaneous images.

      After the war Dr. Seuss visited occupied Japan and met Japanese people and completely changed his views. HHaW is in part a parable for conquest and occupation and also a reminder to himself, it seems, and to others to make sure to listen to other voices even if they are hard to hear.

      Its not a complete parallel because the Japanese Empire was indeed a belligerent against the US and gave as good as it got in terms of radicalized propaganda (Japanese Americans living on the West coast is closer), but the transition of not seeing/hearing to seeing/hearing others seems apt at the moment because there is no doubt the imagery of Gaza is in the American mind and heart as never before.

  • 'Heartbreaking' is U.S. government's talking point for Gaza massacre
    • I like JJ Goldberg as a person and I think he is less contradictory and parsing than other liberal zionists. He has acknowledged many of Israel's flaws for a long time. Watch him to write even more critically after this round in Gaza. But he did come off tired and weak in the face of Ali's unrelenting charge and refusal to give an inch, including on the claim that JJ "would be shot" were he to go to Gaza.

    • Ali Abunimah called it a pogrom in his debate with JJ Goldberg at Democracy Now and I imagine there is less mental resistance to that kind of description than before.
      He was as intense as ever, even more so, and I wondered if in part because of the rapid death toll and horrific scope of the current attacks but also because he is aware of a growing audience reception to what he has been saying and writing for years.

  • The deafening silence around the Hamas proposal for a 10-year truce
    • Because its a Hudna, which you can google. The 10 years is a reference to a treaty with the Quraysh tribe. Islamophobes point to this as sneakiness (a chance to restock) though in fact, like any government or combatant, including Israel, they want to call the fighting off in beneficial terms other than defeat or apparent defeat. And secondly in Islamic tradition the original Hudna was honored by Muslims but broken by the Quraysh side.

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  • Naomi Wolf walked out of synagogue when they had nothing to say about Gaza massacre
    • Aiman, I was referring here to the Occupation of the West Bank.

      My point was that there was colonialism before that but that Israel probably could have gotten away with that.

      Its what other articles have referred to here as blending the green line, which is indeed happening.

      I don't disagree with you thought that what we are seeing now was implanted form the beginning even going back to Herzl.

    • I suppose you also teach history at university, Mooser? since you know what the study of history is and clearly I don't. Actually, you know everything about everything and everyone so why not.

      You are completely wrong about my motives, your hostility towards me is personal and irrational and you twist my words to mean what you want them to mean.

      And didn't you once make Aliyah? I think you are suspicious, mr purity.

    • For most Americans being religious just means being a "good" person (which is how she characterizes her stance). I also see the significant part of what she wrote as her not being like the other scholars you mentioned, particularly active on tis issue, but that her gut instinct tells her something is amiss. That there are non-Zionist congregations she might attend actually enhances the point that she is not overly religious in the sense of dogma or practice but just as it means to paraphrase Hillel and a later significant rabbi, treating your neighbor well.

    • "Yeah, Like Australia and the US? Nothing but unclaimed land and aborigine’s? Hardly."

      Are you serious, Mooser? Are you really serious or can you not read or understand? I gave those examples precisely because they are examples of genocidal conquest. US and Australia basically got away with it and there might have been an alternative universe in which Israel changed from a colonial conqueror into a more liberal state (with a highly imperfect and bloody past). That would not satisfy a lot of the decedents of the Arab expulsions and others looking back from a human perspective but they the Zionists probably would have gotten away with it.

      Seriously, what's up with you? Why is it that you want me to be an aggressive supremacist and Zionist? Why are your jokes so important to this issue?

      Can you lay off the snark for one second and actually read or no, is being king borscht belt more important to you than reading and understanding and responding appropriately?

      You might be right that with Zionism it was inevitable. That is the what if question I am asking because I am interested in history not hasbara.

    • Get a life Mooser. Obviously you have some issue with me personally, not with what I say because no matter what I say you will try to make it sound like I am arguing for Jewish supremacy when I am clearly not. You waste my time and others in a very serious moment, and to do so you need to twist my words, which is just sad.

      I said the same thing as eljay. Is eljay a Jewish supremacist?

      What I said and meant because it is true is that Israel probably could have survived as a small state that, as eljay also writes, was committed to allowing Jewish culture to flourish but not at the expense of other citizens, despite its bloody origins of conquest just like the US and Australia.

      I suppose your point is to get me to react so congrats, though how no-life of you, its just I really think that it is beyond rude to intentionally misread someone for a laugh, especially about really serious things. In fact its worse than calling someone an a-hole or some other thing which is probably banned here.

    • It is a dark hour NormanF but because the Israeli state became inseparable from the occupation project.

      My guess is that an Israel on pre 67 (defined) borders that was actively committed to removing any ethnic based legal or actual barriers of all its citizens, could have survived with a good measure of the world's support, even retaining a Jewish element to its national life. The history of its founding would have been (for better or worse, fair or unfair) treated in the same way as that of the US or Australia.

      People like Wolf would not be walking out of synagogues.

      But that is not what happened.

  • Renouncing my Israeli citizenship
  • Hamas wants to pile up 'telegenically-dead Palestinians for their cause' -- Netanyahu, on television
    • Donald, I understand the shooting and crying phenomenon. I mean in conversations with people I have discussing this for years, some of them quite committed and connected to the Israel project in the US and Israel, the tone is different in spoken and unspoken ways, more somber and more reflective. I don't know if/how this will change things.

    • I share much of your point but would not say 1940's tech was so crude even before the uranium and plutonium bombs in Japan. Further to your point in WWII the total aspect of the war was understood and that meant civilians too both intentional (like you mention at Dresden) and well too bad in the way like everywhere else. Admiral Halsey erected a billboard on the side of a hill in the Solomon Islands: "Kill Jap[anese]...Kill Kill More. You will help kill the little yellow bastards if you do your job well." It left a huge impression on the young naval officer JFK.

      The world makes a big distinction now, as it should, and also the internet, cell phone movies etc... makes this real for everyone even more so than TV did for Vietnam with twice the effect. Its impossible not to see your self or your own children in Gaza, even if you think that its all Hamas's fault. I see the shift in writing about Gaza and the way this conflict is being spoken about not at MW but among Jewish supporters of Israel and even the settlements.

  • 'We are moving from Iron Dome to an iron fist': Israel launches ground invasion of Gaza
    • Never. Because an entire group will never speak as one, not Jews Muslims or Christians.

      If I have mistaken you for someone else I apologize but you also seem to never accept -any- Jewish voice against Israel's activities as being a legitimate voice. The fact that you are waiting for all Jews to speak as one certainly says that your standard is unmeetable. But the individual and group voices in the Jewish community will continue to change, especially among the younger. Watch.

      This refusal to be accepted as representative is something Muslims who don't fit particular stereotypes have also experienced.

  • To my fellow American Jews
    • I agree with much of what you say, certainly the overall point, but remember that Jews were singled out for wholesale destruction -before- the modern state of Israel. And, I think its unintended but there is an implication that the deeds of Israel (or any other particular act in the name of Judaism) creates a pretext for the destruction of all Jews. In fact, if Israel went a way tomorrow there would still be some people griping about the Jews though they would have to return to their slime holes, not having the huge cover provided for them by aggressive Jewish nationalism.

  • 'I am a Jew. Israel is NOT My State'
    • Yes, please write an article for Mondoweiss on why you think the way you do. Your background and how you think it shaped your ideas.

      And start your own website for the old white non-Jew perspective since there are basically none of those. True the Jews will probably try to shut it down through media (and assorted) influence, but it will be fun for a while.

  • NBC reportedly orders Mohyeldin to leave Gaza -- after he criticized State Dep't
    • The very opposite of the imagery of terrorist or vermin: kids playing happily on a beach. And soccer no less, just after the world cup made that sport the universal for international harmony and fair play. This one changes things. I am surprised Phil did not go much into the Daily Beast coverage which has been clearly told by edit to tell an even story.

  • Israeli strike kills four Palestinian children playing soccer on Gaza beach
    • If you think calling out antisemitism (even if you think I am wrong) makes my profile "murky" its you that has a problem not me. Maybe you just don't want Mooser to be a complete nut-job with a beef against me.

      The same point is made here everyday: some images get into the american mind and some don't. Its been very hard to get the Palestinian point of view in the American mind and the majority of Americans still support Israel (most recent Pew). There has not yet been a single image such as the one mentioned but a recent cumulative imagery that I think is starting to stick.

    • Daniel, I think that Viet Nam image is a really good example of how an image can change a mindset. I might have said "not one singular image..." but I think the misunderstanding is willful.

      Frankie P: Yes, Tokyobk lives in Tokyo, and even if focusing on antisemitism is iyo exaggerated or incorrect or inappropriate, it says nothing about ones opinion on Zionism or war among a civilian population and does not excuse a willful misreading that changes empathy into cheering on the death of four kids playing soccer on a beach.

      Zionism is the belief in a Jewish state in historic Palestine, not the belief that some people on MW comment's section are anti-Semites. There are many reasons why I think calling it out matters but I do agree with you that this thread is not the place to list them.

    • Jenin, I have been trying for a while to tell Mooser that he us fighting with his image of me not with what I actually believe or say. He just has to decide if telling jokes, even if it means twisting my words, is more important to him than the (very serious) subject matter.

    • Ha amazing, you are really unhinged. I must have really pissed you off because it is so obvious to anyone with a brain what I meant and it was definitely not an insult to the Palestinians braving this staggering assault.

      My point of course is that the magnitude of the assault on Gaza has not been encapsulated by just one picture but that the cumulative images are having the effect of that memorable photograph which altered the perception of the war and made pro war propaganda much much harder.

      I feel enormous human empathy for the people of Gaza and Palestinians. I just think you need to get a job, a life or if you are going to snark at least get a snark target with whom you disagree. I am sure you and I agree on almost all facts about I/P.

      Walid is right. Beyond the human tragedy, as a strategy this is a mistake Israel stepped in.

    • There is not one Phan Thi Kim Phuc photo (the little naked girl fleeing a napalm strike in Viet Nam) but the combined photos and stories from Gaza this time have indeed changed the imagery of this conflict in the American mindset, imo.

  • Rachel Maddow ignores the story in Israel/Palestine
  • Sullivan and Leveretts throw in the towel on two-state solution
    • But I don't believe that there are inherently white and black and Jewish and Muslim places in the world. I think you hold a more dim and essentialist view of the (so-called) Arab world. Co-existance is possible though it would not even be "co" since citizens would not be segregated. I do think that the more Jews can imagine a safe (for them) post-Israel the more quickly you will see a turn from Zionism.

    • I think fortress Israel is a terrible idea and don't believe it is the best option for keeping Jews safe there or in the world.

    • I like your blockade idea.

      The rest I am going to assume you mean "you" and "your" as a kind of 3rd person stand in otherwise you should be ashamed of yourself, first of all your low reading comprehension.

    • Inanna,

      Its been a terrible week. As I walked by the office tv today I heard the 200th Palestinian has been killed. So, I understand how with your emotions high you might have completely missed my meaning and intention in answering Phil's question as I did.

      We could have a separate debate about whether Jewish feelings matter or whether they should matter how/if they matter more than other groups but all that would be separate to the reality that in political terms they do matter. Its what Phil writes about all the time. I believe it was a major impetus for starting MW -- meaning how what Jews believe influences the debate and reality inordinately. My answer reflects that reality not what I think is fair or right, though I do of course want to see an equitable outcome.

      I don't support the occupation, the ghettoing of Gaza or the Zionist goal of a Jewish state. I do support a state where Jews are safe and equal but not at the expense of anyone else least of all people whose families have been living there from time immemorial.

    • "Also, when are liberal Zionists going to begin to reflect this new reality, and throw in the towel on their beloved two-state solution?"

      When they become convinced that Jews are safe in the world and in Israel (or whatever it eventually becomes) regardless of the demography.

      That may be an impossible task (because the fear is both rational and irrational and the fear is also a pretext for those whose ideology depends on it).

      But, that is the answer to this important question.

      Also, we will see who is liberal and who is Zionist more clearly in the next years.

  • Netanyahu says there will never be a real Palestinian state
    • I don't mind a caustic comment or a snipe either here and there and do it sometimes The thing about Mooser is that he is just wrong about who I am and what I believe. Snark requires wit, which s/he (I am guessing he - post middle age pre elderly East Coast) often shows. But like an ageing relative of mine who was a prankster in his youth setting the table on a roar, wry in his middle age, but who with his offbeat humour scared waitresses and check out ladies into thinking he was a wandered off , that kind of wit needs to be sharp.

      About missles: If you are firing into a populated area you may be right in your cause but you are not innocent. Both sides want to be right and innocent.

      I also think that while there will still be people who want Israel to go after a withdrawal, the withdrawal is the moral and practical starting point for a new discussion which would stop 90% of terror.

    • I don't know but that's the goal right?

      There will never be a complete reconquista of historic Palestine by anyone.

      -That- is the lesson from history.

    • So you believe Jews can't/shouldn't live as equal citizens in Palestine?

    • Mooser honestly you are having a conversation with the tokyobk in your head not the commenter at Mondoweiss or the person behind the comments. It's obvious I ask in complete seriousness since I support the goal of Israel being safe for everyone and ending the worship of nationalism and like and support Phil even where I disagree with him. Go find another snarkee please.

    • People around Netanyahu have been talking like this forever.

      Yes, Two States is dead and perhaps with it a Jewish majority Israel.

      American Jews will probably eventually come to support the idea of, if not a Jewish State, a state where Jews are also safe. How to get there? How does Phil Weiss, JVP help get them there?

      "Submit, die or leave" is actually "Submit die or leave or be drawn into a war" and for all the keyboard warrior fantasies here this week about Hiz and Hamas riding into Jerusalem, that is the ideal pretext for final conquest and massive expulsion.

      My suspicion is that the same around Netanyahu is that they think they can survive that and the political fallout and they probably can for the next half century which is about as far as any country can plan.

      As for "dying slowly:" all states are dying slowly (if they are not dying quickly) and my guess here is that Israel leadership actually agrees with something like that. We either give them a state and then they attack us and we die or we build a fortress. Fortress Israel is a disaster in many ways but the least of bad choices they believe, rough neighbourhood, king of the hill (literally given the topography, who can last the longest.

  • Understanding Hamas
    • Renouncing bad doctrines like those behind like slavery and Jim Crow, Indian Removal or White Only Australia or State Shinto is actually the opposite of medieval.

      The Hamas Charter has to go in word and spirit if Hamas wants the legitimacy the author argues for. They are one and the same effort though she wants to separate them, and no I do not take Hamas in 2D. I understand they are varied and they are also an elected body that will have to be negotiated with as long as the Palestinians want that.

    • You are saying that Hamas should be taken seriously by world governments as the elected representatives of Gaza and perhaps all Palestinians.

      You are also saying that the Hamas charter does not really matter even though they won't fully renounce it.

      But the second part actually does matter for the first. Undoubtedly, other reasons would be found to bar Hamas but that does not mean that a genocidal document can be simply waved away. There is no such thing as too much obsessing about such formal statements and you would not accept it from any other quarter.

      If Hamas is to be treated as legitimate government than it can expect to be scrutinised for how it would treat all of its citizens in a multi-ethnic Palestine.

      Moreover, Hamas like any other government can be fairly judged on how it treats the people it currently governs and the outcomes of its social and military policy.

      I happen to agree as with other revolutionary and resistance movements further engagement can mean better results on the issues above, but the charter (and other like statements) matter, and they matter precisely in the terms of legitimacy that you are arguing for.

  • Florida Congresswoman sides with Israeli police over her own brutalized teenage constituent
    • The goys against the Jews features among Zionists and anti-Zionists, among the latter spoken both in literal terms (we believe it) and as projected onto the imagined Elders (thats what they really think about us).

    • Yes, in the American media Palestinian lives are not as valuable or inherently innocent as Jewish Israeli lives.

      But, I am not sure why you are posting this as a response to me or what I have said?

      Is it that you want me to say that the murder from the skies of innocent Palestinians is an indelible stain on the soul of Israel?

      The slaughter of Palestinian non-combatants is something that has haunted me these last weeks.

      I fell less for willing combatants firing into populated areas and think that innocence is always something armies try to enroll as they roll out the artillery. I mean of course both sides of the conflict which as you point out is highly lopsided.

    • Not yet, though I do have a nice small batch bourbon ready to go into my sake flask.

    • I am not hyping that. It is what he said and meant because its how he thinks. And its a problem for this part of the conversation. If I am the only semi regular commenter who brings it up that is probably because many pro-Palestinian rights Jews are not really that attached to Judaism or the Jewish community whereas I am.

    • Tree -- I do distinguish what is interesting to me (and what I don't see others here commenting about) and what the priorities in the conflict are.

      The second and most important priorities are:

      Peace, security and equality for all people River to Sea, which special emphasis on removing all apartheid and Jim Crow like legal and social barriers to the liberty of Palestinians in Israel and the OT. And, resolving the Gaza situation in a way where all governments are responsible for protecting all people in the region.

      My intellectual interest I freely admit is where to fairly draw the line between criticism of Israel and antisemitism and trying to discern what influence anti-semtism has on this conversation. In this -conversation- the issue I go back to continuously is important.

      I will let you in on something, Tree, though I expect you not to believe me. Phil and Adam and Scott are making a huge mistake, which I have told Phil about without expecting him to believe me or of course to change his mind. Phil's FB page, as I have told him, is often a screed from the Protocols. He does his cause a disservice.

      Allowing the dissemination on his site of the drivel: 98% innocent Americans 2% interloping Jews (not real Americans) is a huge and costly mistake. It costs him money and influence that he otherwise would have access to. The people bowdlerizing anti-Jewish racism here and elsewhere are actually not his friends nor, imo friends of human rights in historic Palestine. The more American Jews are convinced to see this struggle in rights terms not tribal terms, the happier the resolution will be. One of the several things I like about Ali Abuminah is that he has painted this line brightly.

      That, Tree, really is my agenda whether you believe me or not.

    • Tree - what is happening to Palestinians is far worse and far more important than anyone's feelings, Jewish or otherwise. I have said such things many times. Nothing I have ever said should make you infer I think otherwise.

      I still get to comment on what I want to comment on and I still think the anti-semitism line is an interesting and relavent discussion. And, as I said, it was brought up here. The statement was not a slip it is the real feelings of some of the people in this conversation though you are right s/he has not learned the code yet.

    • Hi tree:

      I have the issues that are important and interesting to me and others have theirs.

      You can poo poo my genuine feeling as an aside or rote but it does not change what I feel (and more importantly do). PS No comment in a comment section is really much of an effort towards anything, you realise that right? I know I do as much or more than most five hour per day people here on this issue, especially the player hater nationalists. I am talking in real life not internet fantasy life.

      And no, i disagree. Measuring the antisemitism line is important and it was specifically bright up here.

    • Yeah fine but that is not what s/he he said.

      There is of course nothing wrong with describing Jewish America as overwhelmingly Zionist or that Jews give a disproportionate amount of funding to politicians (which in itself I don't think is a odd thing in our system and neither do other groups such as CAIR who are trying to emulate this strategy to influence US foreign policy).

      The Jews however dod not create the problem of candidates risking angering they paying constituents. In fact elections used to be mostly won by chicken dinners which is a feature of democracy that made its a bad word for our Republican founders.

      The "Hey you meant to say Zionist right, right, right," I read is a side lipped "hey buddy, you forgot the euphemism"

      In the case of many american Jews, sure the issue is Israel.

      Also, they the Jews do this so what can "we" do about it is a problem. Its the Citizen formula: 98% innocent but slightly stupid and uniformed "goyim" (but real 4th of July burger eating Americans) and 2% wily city slicker cosmopolite dual loyalists with a carpetbag full of cash on the ready. That formula sparks the neuron films inside the head of more than just one sad old man nostalgia for the days when the covenant was as high and thick as Israel's separation wall, but does not really describe the reality where Jews and Christians in the US are mostly Zionist with a growing dissonance based on the first hand imagery supplied by the internet.

      And let me say because 1) it is so outrageous and 2)so that I don't have to engage in a long OT conversation about how disagreeing with people at MW or being sensitive to the line between Israel criticism and antisemitism is not in fact Zionism* I find this situation outrageous. Indeed if the is was a little Jewish kid anywhere especially the middle east congress would be on a riot.

    • Yes, s/he thinks it is the Jews.

      And posting on a site run by Jews that often quotes the growing number of Jews (who btw are disproportionate in the pro-Paelstinian cause meaning more than 2%) does not matter as a fact or even an irony.

      Nor the fact that Christian America is still solidly Zionist for its own reasons of religion and empire. (Though that is changing too).

  • Israel's message to the Palestinians: Submit, leave or die
    • I wish I did know what the real word - which is what I am talking about- solution is. On the Zionist side I see denial and frankly a lot of simply not giving a crap. On the pro-Paelstinian side I see fantasies of Israel's demise which is not going to happen any time soon. Do you have a solution or is snarking on MW working well enough for you and everybody?

      I do see more and more American Jews saying some version of "not in my name" and the continued humanisation (as well as underdog status)of Palestinians in the American mind.

    • No. I am saying Israel completely conquered Palestine and is continuing to do so and this fact makes people on all sides of the issue very uncomfortable for different reasons. Which is what I wrote.

    • Whataboutery is when you change the subject to avoid having to answer a criticism. I don't think Judaism is above criticism. As for Israel, I share most of the principled criticisms as others here. As for Zionism: simply no use for Nationalism Jewish or otherwise. Not my thing.

      I don't think Christianity or Islam should be essentialized either, as I make clear.

      In fact, I agree with the tone and ideas in your response below.

      Seafóid has been going on for a while about how concerned he is for the state of Judaism and I made the above suggestion because he sounds an awful lot like people "concerned" with Islam.

    • I mean this in a completely serious and polite way: You should go over to Jihad Watch and see how they express their "concern" about Islam and its reputation and how its finally time to start talking about seriously about the religion. I think you may get an inkling of how your fears for Judaism sound. Go take a look for yourself.

      Judaism will do as well as it can and not more and the people who are suspicious of it or of Jews did not need Israel for millennia and won't need it if and when its gone.

      Think of all the millions slaughtered in the worlds of Christendom and the many different Islamic civilisations. And yet for so many others both are a path towards peace and truth.

    • Speaking to people with strong opinions on this issue it has always struck me how uncomfortable almost every one is with the basic fact that Israel conquered Palestine.

      The problem for Zionists is that just does not sound very nice or much like "a country without a people" or the arabs ran away voluntarily etc... The problem for anti-Zionists or even just critics of Israel policy and action can be 1) Israel's bloody birth makes it like the US and Australia and everywhere else, i.e. who really cares about what happened to the natives-- hey look at our wonderful x y an z... (PS when natives were a demographic and military threat in those territories the liberals of the day were not so liberal) and 2) brutal takeovers usually only reversed by reconquering. I don't see that happening in the next few decades. Really, when it happens to our group we care but when have humans really cared about the fact that power decides.

      What the author is describing is the next phase of a complete conquering done pretty much the way it has always been done.

      The terrible events we are witnessing now will get much worse I fear.

  • Palestinian rockets: The conversation no one is having
    • Lovely. You want the IDF to invade because then we can have a real blood bath and see just how nasty those Israelis are and then World Peace.

      It never fails to amaze me how people, from the comfort of their keyboard of course, are willing to ascribe death to thousands, especially when there is a chance for Israeli humiliation.

      And of course if someone calls out this kind of nakba incitement, well then they are the nasty 'Zionist.'

  • Video: Jewish mob chanting 'Death to Arabs!' stops cars in Jerusalem to check drivers' ethnicity
  • Please, pray for Palestine
    • Annie, you mean something quite different than Citizen here. You are talking about bringing Jews to America as a solution to the I/P conflict. He is talking about getting rid of the Jewish parts of Florida so his people can be free and he can finally be successful and happy.

      But more importantly than sad crankery. Recent events and the murder and this beating will I think penetrate the general US consciousness in a way that was not possible and did not happen before.

  • Change the narrative from 'cycle of violence' to occupation, JVP says
    • JVP is right here and right generally on where the focus should be.

      Every thing other than the universal application of justice within a international and consistent local legal framework, and based on the best practices of tolerant open societies, is not just a distraction but harmful.

      The Occupation has been a disaster for everyone, first and foremost -perhaps all importantly- living humans, especially Palestinian humans, though even the Israelis presumably benefiting from the overlord status.

      Secondarily, it stains the historic Jewish presence in Hebron, a holy city, which Jews have always lived in and always revered. This also saddens me greatly.

  • Chomsky supports portions of BDS agenda, but faults others, citing realism and int'l consensus
    • Wow. Points. Pretty sneaky.

      So Chomsky, Seinfeld and -Larry David (the person actuality in your clip) are not individuals but members and representatives of the, ahem, "hostile elite," eternal and essential, no doubt feeding on the pure and innocent host.

  • Glib, simplistic, and extreme -- the world according to Richard Landes
    • He begins his piece with Ruth Benedict on Japan.

      Benedict never visited Japan and knew no Japanese language if any people.

      She was translating Japanese military propaganda as evidence of the entire culture.

      Her book ended up being enormously important to US and Japanese politics and also ended up (not surprisingly because open transfer is actually how culture works) influencing Japanese ideas of self in the post-war.

      But, no scholar of Japan takes her work as a serious anthropology of Japan. It was a political book with a political purpose and result (know your enemy and then organize an occupation). All things are political in some sense but what is happening hewer is also the desire to define Arab culture for very explicit political purposes, not to understand a complex, dynamic, diverse, influenced and influencing culture of human beings in a given region.

  • Why I pull against the U.S. in the World Cup
    • "All the continent belong to us" is from the meme "All your base are belong to us" and the "s" is intentionally left out. My point is the silliness and arrogance of reducing the America-s- to America as a synonym for the USA.

      Baseball was introduced to and played in Japan since the early 1870's and in other countries from that time as well, Tanaka-san.

    • This is certainly true of some parts of the European trade particularly in the financing of expeditions to South America. Some Jewish merchants in Holland, for example, organized slave expeditions and even developed a kind of futures stock on slave voyages (since the outcomes were not predictable).

      It is simply not true that Jews had an undue part in the Arab trades, and by the way what do your mean Jews and Arabs as separate categories? They most certainly were not separate categories in North Africa or the "Middle East."

      But why is this relevant to my criticism of PW's belief that Europe deserves permanent over-dog status because of its assault on Africa when he does not apply this to the Arab world which had a slave trade from East Africa for a longer period in history and lasting longer towards the present? Likewise the Arab traders in West Africa mostly had their own overland routes with the powerful rulers of the several empires there (who made smaller, rural, nations into slaves) and really were not heavily involved in the Transatlantic routes.

      I suspect you are just playing tit-for-tat, but I was not, nor as you seem to imply, looking to shift -undue- burden onto Arabs. The Arab and Muslim civilizations remain among the most impressive in history as any one who can read a book will discover.

    • The thing I like most about your writing, Phil, is how unpretentious it is and how honest you try to be (when its often hard to have a handle on our own feelings let alone convey them). I always look forward to these kinds of pieces, more so than your analysis.

      You are certainly right on US hubris. Think for example that we call ourselves simply"American" and expect people to understand that means US as in us, not Mexico or Canada for starts and then the rest of the Americas, no small "btw." And of course they do.

      Believe it or not if I said in Japanese "I am a citizen of the United States," (beikokujin) people would find that funny or awkward since the common word used is simply, again, Amerikajin. Canadians are Kanadajin. Mekishikojin are to our south. All the continent belong to us, so to say. I have never seen beikokujin in any text book, btw.

      And then the "World Series" of baseball as if the world only stretched from New York to LA. "Soccer" did get a boost in the States in my childhood in the 70's especially with Pele and the Cosmos but as you say it really is a world sport (though spread also due to the Euro hegemony you decry).

      Etc., most of all our foreign policy which for decades was deadly to East Asians and now to Arabs.

      Like you I also have sentiment which tilts towards the supposed underdog. I went to an English pub at 4:00 am to watch Germany versus Ghana. I had seen online some humorous calculation for deciding which team to root for but could not remember the formula.

      My last West African ancestor lived in the early 1800's and my last German in the late part of that century so that, and my travels to the European country, should say Germany I guess but I also found myself rooting for Ghana.

      But I think you are making some revealing mistakes of categorical thinking (which you say you reject) that give insight.

      I feel this line and as I said I shared the feeling watching Ghana:

      "And any goal by any African player is a source of pride for a continent treated as a source of minerals and slaves and anthropology by Europe and the U.S."

      But, wait, you must know that Africa was for a thousand years the repository of slaves for the Middle East as well, right? You do know that? And Europe and even the US outlawed the African slave trade in the early 1800's whereas the trade and slavery itself was still legal in parts of the Middle East until the middle of the 20th. You must also be aware of the labor conditions in Dubai, right? So why the pass? I realize that this part of the world is stereotyped more than any other right now, and you see your job as correcting this, but the answer is not inverting the image or ignoring history. The answer, in fact is studying history wherein you realize human beings are human beings. In fact it was the span and complexity of Arab civilization that allowed such sophisticated trade across the world and for most of history, slaves were an uncontroversial cargo.

      More glaringly is the omission of China here, which any person with any knowledge of Africa knows is now the most prominent exploiter or investor (depending on who you talk to) in that continent, but is omitted here I think because you want to stick to the category of white over brown, though category which does not make complete sense in history or in the present.

      In grad school I remember an "end of colonialism" party when Hong Kong was turned over to China. Now, England stole the island and had to give it back but it amazed me that my colleagues, the beneficiaries of the best of Western traditions would celebrate the giving of territory by an open, free market society to China simply on the grounds that the Chinese were not white (and therefore could not themselves be colonialists, which of course they were and are, unapologetically, and becoming more so in Africa which fails to register in the mind of the particular kind of white liberalism expressed in this essay).

      -You'll root for Portugal? A fine country with great people but also fascist in your lifetime. My point is not to pick on Portugal but to say that your logic only makes sense as a grumble against America (in some ways deserved) not as a coherent analysis of the moral hierarchy of countries.

      Which if we were to rank countries, we are what we are, what we were for your family, because in spite of our many faults, our virtues have been many and even at times exceptional.

      When France elects an Prime Minister of Arab or Muslim descent, when Nigeria and other parts of Africa create governments with half the transparency and consistency as ours (not perfect by any means) I will take the lecture without saying, "yes but..." And yes, gay rights and women's rights and the rights of religious minorities.

      The US lags in even those against some European countries but does it better than most of the places that a white liberal instinctively considers underdog based on a color code and some reflexive but not entirely appropriate guilt.

      PS in this game the US is the hard working under-dog with a team as diverse as the grunts in every WWII film (plus black people!) and therefore you have permission to cheer us on as we strike against the Empire of "Soccer."

  • I’m a Lutheran member of a Jewish organization, and I support Presbyterian divestment
    • Woody,

      I don't think anyone needs permission Jewish or otherwise to follow their conscious. I also think in general Jewish feelings are less important than Palestinian rights.

      However, your examples don't really fit because you are considering the Jews as Israelis and thus like the other power abusers you mentioned.

      The context for Jewish permission is Jews having been historically victims in the Christian world and therefore the correct analogy would be a white person saying he or she does not need black permission to have an opinion about say Affirmative Action.

      That is to say, even though there has been a history of white racism in the US a white person may have opinions about that issue and don't need a Jesse Jackson or their cubicle mate who happens to be black to police their minds.

      I don't see anything but respect from this author and I am glad because I do think especially Lutherans should speak with humility regarding Jews and rights, given their history and the ideas of their founder.

      There is nothing wrong with asking people to be sensitive especially when their own histories regarding others are tainted as pretty much all of ours are.

  • Why a false understanding of the 'Six Day War' still matters
    • Two more points, Inanna.

      What the New Historians and others have done is, correctly imo, attacked the use of points of varying degree of factualness to create a narrative of victimhood and justified retaliation in creating and maintaining the primal innocence of the Israeli State. The fact of some orders to and spontaneous fleeing of Palestinians was a particularly useful in sustaining the idea that Palestine passed legitimately into the hands of Israel. I mentioned this because someone asked how anyone can believe that Palestinians fled and wanted to make the distinction between limited cases of fleeing and total justification for cleansing the second being the problem.

      Secondly the difference between a propagandist and historian is the first cares about facts and anything else that can be passed off as fact to the extent that they can tell his or her story whereas the historian is trying to find out to the best of her or his ability (always limited and present driven) what happened.

    • Inanana:

      I wrote some which is documented and is not completely contested by New Historians or any one else, because in limited cases it happened.

      And if you read what I wrote I am agreeing that not only were the Palestinians cleansed but that a despicable inversion of victimhood has been enshrined, hence the reference to the famous Golda Meir quote.

    • Some Palestinians were told to flee and come back. Some believed this. Most did not want a Jewish State. The Arab armies did promise to vanquish the Jewish militias.

      Its like some of the top Wehrmacht and even SS were (knowingly) of Jewish descent. Some Jewish Kapos did sell out other Jews. Some blacks in the US South owned and traded slaves. Some Jews were involved in espionage for Israel against Arab states before the expulsion of Jews from the Arab world.

      What propagandists do is take these truthful aspects and make them the symbol for "...and therefore it wasn't so bad and/or my side is not culpable."

      And then you arrive at the "we can never forgive you for making us kill your children" line.

  • Neoconservatism is 'vindicated' in fawning 'NYT' piece on power couple of Kagan and Kristol
    • The Sulzbergers are Jewish by heritage. They and the Ochs were highly assimilated German Jews who name their kids Jr. which is more assimilated than having a Christmas tree. They are about as Jewish as the current Rothschilds unless you believe Jewish is a race.

      Setting that aside, I have no problem with what you wrote above and had you written it the first time I would not have commented. But that not what you wrote. You called the Times a Jewish paper which it is not, not even with Jewish ownership or a disproportionate number of Jews even in leadership.

      I also have absolutely no problem with any question.

      The topic ruffles my feathers because I think in general Jews attracted to civil rights in Israel issue do a lousy job of (or don't care about) recognizing what is topical and even handed criticism of the Jewish community and what is promotion an eternal suspicion that existed before Israel and will exist after Israel.

      I don't bother most of the posters here no matter how vociferous their criticism of Israel or even how critical of the Jewish community as long as it is specific and has a context other than those F'n Jews are at it again.

    • Cliff,

      Your parsing is correct and it is exactly what makes the statement that the NYT is -Jewish- incorrect. "in the sense" is different than in essence. And Sean seems very interested in Essence. Btw, Is Mondoweiss Jewish?

      My self image? Kind of irrelevant.

      I simply believe that there are those for whom the Jewish part of all this is the candy, the hit, the fix. This is true even if you pin most of the blame on Israel for invoking the same series of images and symbols.

      Because of events in Israel/Palestine there is a free pass to come out of the shadows of polite society with the Jews, Jews, Jews; Then. Now. Always. The terms need to be softened occasionally but not always.

      The best part of equality and peace in that region will be peace and equality in that region. A bonus, though, will be those supposedly fighting against Jewish power (almost always player-hating nationalists of various stripes) will have to crawl back into the corner.

    • Annie, yes more. Much more. And, while the majority of Jews are pro-Israel, and while mainstream Jewish organizations are (for the moment) firmly wed to Zionism, my strong guess is that Jews are as over-represented in the Israel-critical and pro-Palestinian rights movement as they are in, for example Neoconservatism.

      If you want to say Neoconservatism is a "Jewish movement" because Jews helped create its ideology, well ok, then, as I have said here before, it was Jews in the late nineteenth century and early twentieth century who developed much of the intellectual foundation for both universalist and religious non and anti-Zionism. Western non-Jews were not usually debating Zionism in the first terms until very recently.

      So a more wide minded conclusion might be that Jews have in the last few hundred years been disproportionately prominent in political and intellectual i.e. capitalism and communism and socialism, and as publishers and disseminators of information in print and later media.

      But, I don't think Sean McBride is leading towards a general statement about Jewish intellectual output.

      I suspect from this and earlier posts, though am happy to be wrong, that Sean is fighting the Long War, for which Israel is just the latest of an eternal and essential presence.

    • Hey, Sean McBride, just curious, what percent of people prominently writing and publishing critically about US Foreign Policy, Israel and Zionism do you think are Jewish? More or less than .2%? Among Americans, more or less than 2%?

      And, what makes the New York Times "Jewish"?

  • Palestinian citizens of Israel protest draft in Tel Aviv as passersby tell them to die or emigrate
    • PS just to avoid a long OT back and forth, naturally I completely support the right of Muslim and Christian Palestinians to live as citizens with full equality in Israel and of course in a Palestinian state, and reject any idea of Jewish supremacy. I just have never seen Citizen post without the above assertions about Jews (The Jews, Joos) which I find despicable.

    • "The old game" Eternal Jew. Check.
      "Host state in the diaspora" Jews as eternal other not as citizens. Check.
      "Dividing minorities from the majority." Jews as interlopers, then and now. Check.

  • Israeli government tries to undo image of Pope at the wall
    • For non-racists his and any one else's "ethnic genetic makeup" is not sufficient information for determining one's citizenship (or character). Where someone was born and raised is.
      For a racist ones ethnic genetic makeup and one's citizenship are the same, and where one is born does not matter.

    • Elaha is Aramaic.
      Alaha is Syriac.
      El, Elohim Hebrew.

    • The days of tribal nationalism are over, I meant to say, which should be good news.

      I would also add that what the Pope did in his trip was acknowledge the Palestinian struggle and speak to Israeli power -- without degrading Jews, denying Jewish suffering, or or denigrating Judaism.

      My he be an example here too.

    • I can't speak for Hophmi and I certainly don't like Bibi who is a bully and a chauvinist, and imo bad for all of the people living in historic Palestine, and I don't know if (this time) Seafóid is being specifically antisemitic, but the idea that people are essentially the stock of their ancestors is the definition of racist. Its the notion behind complementing a 2rd generation American of Chinese descent on their wonderful English etc...

      Netanyahu was born in Tel Aviv and so he is either Israeli or Palestinian or perhaps even American where he spent some of his youth, but he is not Polish in any except in racialist terms (which even then what would Polish be genetically?). The quip was not to highlight his ancestry but to label him and all the other Ashkenazim as foreign interlopers (regardless of how early and when and under what terms they came to Palestine).

      Seafóid as I remember took the side that Sharon should be buried in Eastern Europe where he of course never lived and often argues in terms of national traits as if they are heritable. He seems to believe that certain people belong in certain regions and others don't.

      What I think he and some others want is a counterstrike and this time the good guys win. A complete reversal and undoing of the last century. But these things rarely happen in history and won't happen in I/P. Israel wins in every case where its tribe on tribe and only grows beyond Jewish nationalism where it will be forced by a universal appeal.

      In truth the only winning strategy is to move forward where everyone belongs on equal terms. So, while you also see a lot of attempts to delegitimize the Palestinians from the pro Israel side you also see this lagun age of interloping on those who want Palestine "pure."

      The days of tribal nationalism which should be good news.

  • Scene of NY derailment that took four lives is a disgraceful mess six months later
    • Sadly, very sadly to me at least, coming back to the US from Japan is, regarding almost any type of technological convenience or infrastructure - especially public, effectively getting into a time machine going backwards.

      After Fukushima there were before and one week after pictures circulating the net in disbelief about the speed of clean up and rebuilding.

      Metro North between NYC and NY is slower now than it was in the early 20th century (there were less stops then but still) which I remember was one of Ned Lamont's promises in his short CT gubernatorial campaign - to improve the trains at least to the standard of the 1930's.

      And btw (perhaps just my own series of unlucky trips where I have been delayed even an hour) the lateness of one such trip between those cities often more than the average deviation for all of the trains in Japan including earthquakes and typhoon, a number of less than 15 minutes if you can believe it.

      Disasters and accidents happen everywhere but I agree with your implication that this is a symbol of a larger problem.

  • 'National Interest' readers mutiny over Israeli exceptionalist argument
    • Piotr, you guess wrong. So my question to you is why did you guess wrong and how does your wrong guess here shape your overall thoughts?
      Only you know.

      Unless of course you are more of a scholar of Islam the Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani who was asked:

      "Question: Is it permitted to pay interest to non-Muslims and also take interest from them?
      Answer: Giving interest to a non-Muslim in a deal that is based on interest is impermissible and receiving it (interest) is permissible and there is no objection in it."

      "It is absolutely permissible to take interest from a non-Muslim bank" he adds. link to sistani.org
      Or maybe you don't hold by the Shia and prefer one of the major schools but also here it is unclear whether a non-Muslim may be charged interest especially when living in a non-Islamic state. If you are going to talk about differentiation between adherent and non-adherent, Islam and Judaism are rivals in every sense of the word with thousands of volumes on considerations, and as you phrase it "tricking the almighty" with legalities and loopholes. Not that you need further education in Islam naturally, but when you have a spare moment please google "riba and non-Muslim" and you get the equivalent of the Talmud, a few hundred learned (and differing) opinions from across a thousand years of global Islamic scholarship.

      My real question, though, is for Phil and Adam, which is why do you allow Judaism to be essentialized in this way, which happens often on your site, mostly as slights that imply that the problem in Israel/Palestine is a uniquely Jewish problem, and not a historic problem of justice, as if other religions and other self "chosen" groups have not done the same and more in their own names using their own particular systems of classification and justifications, throughout history.

      I also wonder why you allow Judaism to be insulted (independent of implications for I/P) but that is a separate and not as important complaint.

      "exotic mindset" indeed.

  • CNN airs evidence Israelis used live bullets on Palestinian protesters
    • Kris, no problem. I certainly understand the anger over any attempt to whitewash this.

    • If you include my name here its because you don't read and/or don't understand what I write, which I can't really do any thing about.

      I believe that the only solution in light of the failure of 2 states is one equal democratic state.

      I don't support nationalism Jewish or otherwise and while I admire aspects of -cultural Zionism (that is the revival of Hebrew, the continuous settlement (as equals) in historic Palestine) I have never been a political Zionist, ever.

      And you can't find any thing I have written here or elsewhere that argues otherwise.

      Lastly, the idea that I support the killing of unarmed or even rock-throwing Palestinians who are protesting is offensive but again it comes from your misunderstanding of my comments here about anti-semitism, not from anything I believe or have ever articulated.

  • What’s wrong with the ADL survey and how it could be improved
    • Its Amalek.

      But I guess "Remember the Almak" would be a more catchy phrase in your dystopic future.

      At least your posts are always consistent though: The eternal (so what's new?) and interloping Jew, a cancer on the host body, ever regrouping to further menace the (otherwise peaceful and moral) world.

    • "Where are all the polls on anti-Irishism, anti-Germanic, anti-Polish, and so on?"

      Go make one. or fund one or ask the appropriate groups to do so.

      If you have the problem with the methodology of the survey, join the criticism, but if your problem is that a Jewish group wants to study or publicise their concerns about anti-semitism, well that is a different order of concern, though one shared by Joseph Kennedy Sr. and others who wanted the Jews to quit griping about their problems, decades before Israel existed.

  • 'NYT' publishes unvarnished ADL propaganda: 93% of Palestinians are anti-Semites
    • The ADL is a pro Israel group that conflates Israel and Jews in a way that I disagree with strongly (agreeing with Massad and others that doing so may be in itself anti-semitic).

      You may also be right that it is a cynical talk and not walk.

      But, they did condemn the racist slogans in Israel.

      "Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, issued the following statement:
      “We deplore the recent spate of price tag attacks in Israel, a number of which have targeted Muslim and Christian religious sites. These heinous actions are antithetical to Jewish values and those responsible – both for inciting and committing the attacks – must be identified and stopped."

      link to sdjewishworld.com

    • First of all yes, absolutely - regarding coexistence- the question of whether one wants to replace racism with reverse racism is exactly that taken up by Mandela and King and others who struggled against white over black racism.

      Secondly, its perfectly fine if you think the conversation about anti-semitism should be tabled, but the topic here is exactly that, and I am suggesting imo a better way to measure it. So, perhaps your question is better on a scale of important things but mine is more relevant to the actual thread here.

      If you asked me to list the most important things about peace in Israel/Palestine I would not put this at the top either though as I said in the above paragraph it was a central reason the world came to see the aforementioned anti-racism struggled in universalist terms. The global anti-Apatheid movement vetted the Mandelas and ANC which changed its rhetoric and tactics over the years appropriately. That was not only not a diversion but in fact helped the final push to end Apartheid.

    • Not sure we actually disagree. "Were and would" means before Israel and in a One State scenario.

      "Yahud" is now used to mean Israeli and so its hard to sort out the differences, which leads to the 93% figure. What would that figure be in a scenario of full equality? That is a number that should be on the minds of any one advancing One State on universlaist grounds.

    • Just look at their website.
      They do speak out bias against other groups.
      It does not change their pro-Israel agenda which is explicit, and a cynic might say the other work is to strengthen that project, but your basic assertion is incorrect.

    • "And if 74 percent of the people in North Africa and Middle Eastern countries harbor anti-Semitic attitudes, can that have anything to do with the west’s implanting a Jewish state in their midst, and that state’s reliance on Jewish symbols?"

      This is actually a question as or more relevant to people who argue for One State on universal grounds, than to the ADL and other pro-Israel groups. To what extent have Jews been treated as natural and normal parts of North African and the Middle East and to what extent were and would Jews be treated as such in a post Israel scenario?

      Its true that the ADL for its own purposes does not want to separate Jews and Israel, effectively treating negative beliefs about both to the same source, but it would indeed be far more interesting and perhaps useful to construct a survey which explicitly did this.

      An anti-semite is someone for whom there needs to be a Jew at the root of every problem. What percent of the world holds that? Not 25% and not 0% either.

  • 'NYT' photo feature on women in Gaza ignores Israel and Palestine
    • Every single one of the quotes shows the article is doing what the author says its not doing. (I understand the online version was edited down as is always the case.

      Depicting the full range of humanity of Palestinians weakens any attempt to make them more easily caged and bombed. But, it seems it is also threatening to a kind of Western activist who also needs his representative victims simply defined.

  • Long ago, Bill Buckley and Woody Allen agreed on occupation
    • He gave me the creeps too, the way he chewed on his pencil, though he did pick an important fight with the John Birch racists telling them they had no place in his conservatism. And he did have really controversial left and radical figures on his show and took their ideas seriously enough to debate them.

      Also Buckley was very much not a WASP but a WASC.

  • Passover for Palestine
    • Its a good point that is also relevant in the celebration of revenge during the Purim holiday.

      But, terrible retribution by God (directly or through men) is present in all three texts of all three major monothiesms.

      The Christian Testament of course has the strongest wording against revenge by man to man, but no Christian denomination (that I know of) argues that the God of the Torah is not the same God of the Gospels, so the problem of God's brutal (and seemingly eye-for-eye) punishment is a problem for any literal minded person (with a modern conscious) not just Jews.

      Do you believe that the new revelation or the self-sacrifice of Jesus (which cleanses some of man's debts) also reset the nature of God, meaning do you think as a Christian you are exempt from this same problem?

  • Alleged K.C. killer: 'If Jews can have a state of their own, why can't we have a White Christian state?'
    • The vast majority of people who comment at MW are in no way anti-semites. Anti-semitism is both a real thing and also an overused shorthand for "I don't want to listen and you don't have a right to say it."

      Max Blumenthal and Mondoweiss will be vilified by some in the pro-Israel community no matter how many times they condemn anti-Semitism .

      BUT, the same kind argument has been made here by a few posters, the same complaint as this alleged killer, if thinly veiled. That the GD Jews get away with things the white man (as a supposed contrast) can't. I have no idea why Phil et all don't just drain the swamp, even just out of strategy since the safer American Jews feel the more the middle, especially young and progressive, will break towards non ethnic justice.

      The brighter the red line between pro human rights that are critical of Israel and Zionism, and calumny of the "eternal" Jew, the better for everyone.

  • 66 years ago today 42 members of my family were slaughtered in Deir Yassin
    • This is a telegram from your soul not an analysis of what holocaust education programs are teaching (or are not teaching). I hope you can tell the difference. Sometimes people for whom the Jews are the center of their explanatory narrative cannot distinguish between the Jews inside and outside of their heads.

      Most Holocaust education programs are cast in global and universal terms, as they should be, though I certainly don't doubt the propensity for groups to be self centered and superlative and for groups who want to talk about their own histories to present that history as representative of humanity.

      And of course you are right that the Nazi war against the Jews (even in the context of WWII) is just one genocide, unfortunately, of several major mass killings and far too many on a smaller scale, including the horrific types of executions such as at Deir Yassin (or of my father's relatives at a river bank near Stari Sambor by the Einsatzgruppen)

      Imo, the first modern purposeful, "racial" and highly technical genocide was in the Belgian Congo, which fits your example of neglecting global horrors.

  • Friedman says Iran's friends include BDS and Jews in Open Hillel movement
    • What is not to understand?

      This is a defense of liberal Zionism, trying to push all of the threats to 2 States (as an achievable goal and as a moral stance) into one category, however strangely shaped.

  • Boteach stops reporter from videotaping Columbia University debate
    • Thank you tree, that is correct (though I kind of like the name Tokyo Ben King and certainly Ben E. King).

      I would be very happy to try to set up an open, taped, discussion between Boteach and Weiss if both parties are interested. Would have to be Fall, 2014 at earliest though and in New Haven.

  • 'The clash of civilizations’ theory is absolutely and completely dead
    • ...Your veil is thin and transparent.

      Why would it be surprising that Christian founded WASP organizations are Zionist when the majority of Christians and WASPs are still pro-Israel. (I agree this is changing, btw)?

      No, what you are saying is surprising is how these institutions are (supposedly) Jew to the core and you lament the passing of a great race and the end of quotas which maintained a tolerable number of aliens.

    • Everything you write is about a Clash of Civilizations, between the Jew and the Goy. Its equally boring. Not to mention its all about the white man finally rising up and taking back his place. Yawn there too.

      PS, its "2 Jews 3 opinions" not "3 Jews in a room" though I doubt the latter seems already to you problematic.

  • Obama doesn't talk to Jimmy Carter -- because of Israel
    • Its not an accepted fact that Israel runs US policy, though I realize screen name American that is -your- take away. Its not even really the Walt and Mearsheimer thesis though that is how people who would dismiss them as antisemitic, and at the same time people with your instincts, would like to frame it.
      A fifth column that runs US policy, who see the lobby in everything from China policy to whose novel gets published, ZOG etc... remains the thesis of anti-Semites,

      The inordinate influence of the lobby on Mid-east policy, on the "peace" process, the pretense of being a US domestic lobby group rather than foreign lobby, these things have been accepted by a growing part of mainstream people and those without your particular interest in the Jews.

  • Israel is now attempting to 'de-Arabize' Palestinian Christians, but in the 1950s it was Jews from the Middle East
    • Read and understand a post before you use fancy or foreign words or accuse someone else of being daft. Free Advice.

      Yes, it cannot be real multi-culti if it excludes Arabs and the Israel ID excludes Arabs, however diverse Jews have become there. It can be seen as a strategy that is a kind of "brown-washing" that is used to reinforce the wall between Arab and Jew, which is what I said the first time.

    • Actually the Jews and whiteness story is as old as that racial category itself, about 500 years, Jews (both Ashkenazic and Sephardic) having been granted access to the identity in the New World (whatever religious prejudices may have endured).

      Just as the larger societies notion of race is n flux in an unprecedented way, the sense that Jewish = Ashkenazic is also loosening.

      I see Israel as adopting (at least officially) a multi-cultural Western ID (exclusive to, to say the least, Arab and Muslim) since that is the "liberal" norm or at least ideal in the West. Though as I said it reflects a changing consciousness within Judaism as well both in Israel, it seems, and surely in the US.

      In fact, demographically Israeli Jews are diverse, witness Ms. Israel and the current IDF pr campaign highlighting the color spectrum of the Jewish State.

      Cynically, this can be seen as a kind of "brown washing" in that the diversity angle is meant to harden the only category that really matters in I/P. Jewish or Palestinian.

  • Grindr in Hebron: A dispatch from the last debate
  • Conservatives for Palestine
    • Sobran's comments on Jews, about whom he wrote generally with suspicion, hostility and resentment, went way beyond Israel.

      Buchanan is more careful, but it would not be over-reach to assume that he is no fan of the Jews either.

  • Florida Jewish leader quits a Hillel board to protest bar on free speech
    • There is no question the direction of the leadership and general sentiment of the Jewish American community in the last 60 years but as I have said before, non and anti-Zionism -began- in the Jewish community when Zionism itself was still a nascent idea not widely discussed, or even taken seriously as a real possibility. (There have been multiple attempts at mass aliyah in the past, but as an organised philosophy drawing on European nationalism and (world be) religious justification.)

      The kind of principled anti-Zionism on humanist grounds that most people here would claim, post-dates Jewish anti-zionism. But, better late than never!

      This -return- to the time when the majority of Jews opposed a secular state on both/either religious or dual loyalty grounds is something being discovered by liberal Jews all over, often independent of the structures. I know as sure as I know anything that this is preparation for when the two state solution fails for good. At that point the costs will be too high and the contradictions too great to maintain an uncritical Zionism or necessary conflation with Judaism and Israel.

      Young religious Jews at a (non Hasiddish) orthodox school wanted to invite Prof. Khalidi to hear his point of view. This kind of inquiry would have been an impossible thought ten or 20 or 40years ago, but not 70 or 80 years ago.

      Robust, Pro-Jewish, non and anti-Zionism will be a story within the Jewish community in the next few years, without a doubt (and to the disappointment of those who have a psychological need for the Jews to be a nefarious monolith)

  • Meet the Jewish students who are taking on the Jewish establishment
    • I admire Annie for debating in earnest but the opening, in fact return, of the Jewish community to diverse opinions on Israel is threatening not only to a narrow minded Zionism but to people who come to this issue by way of a general interest (to be kind) in the Jews. Jews here, there, under the bed etc...

      People interested primarily in achieving rights and justice will welcome any opening of the impasse.

      And by the way, these kids were in high school a few years ago. So what are they late for?

  • Effort to remove Jews from West Bank is akin to Nazi slaughter -- settler spokesman
    • Shingo,

      I find NormanF's arguments equally despicable and by the way not just in a general way but in a way which I think is a particular abuse of Jewish history, meaning not giving a shred of empathy to other people when we have often been denied that. And its semantics. The Palestinians were the people living in Palestine. Period.

      But your not quite getting the Sand thesis. Its not that the Jewish people were invented in the 19th century its that a people with a contiguous kingdom to nation state lineage who conceived of themselves as nation like other modern nations was invented. The Jewish people has been a diverse and self consciously united religion throughout the ages.

      B'nei Yisrael is a biblical term used throughout and Am Yisrael "The Jewish People" is a very old term as well.

      His title is less sensational in French and Hebrew.

  • Scholar explodes 'canonic' American Jewish belief: Russian Czar was behind 1903 massacre
    • W. Absolutely. The political Zionist narrative on Palestine is the essence of revision and using history to score points for one's side.

      I think there were cultural Zionist narratives that had a moment of life and will be revived. I think the recent NYT article by Mark Oppenheim is part of creating a new (or re-primed) conceptual well for liberal American Jews to draw from.

    • uh huh. just as I said. So you either did not read or did not understand.

    • I chose a particularly heinous example where people try to excuse someone because he may not have known all the details of an event. Same is true of, for example, Emperor Hirohito.

      So, its not a sneaky reference as you say, in fact the opposite chosen specifically because the example would be glaring to people here who might yet be willing to contextualize the Tzar or Russian government.

      I don't have any interest in vindicating Sharon but people who do find parsing to be useful which was my point.

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