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va'yikra 19:33
devarim 10:19
etc... and more importantly how this has shaped secular Jewish consciousness and our understanding of our experience in europe and the "east."
These scummy racists are indeed horrible - listen to them.
Do you hear them making a sober case against illegal immigration? I hear them projecting scummy racist fantasies onto a woman brave enough to call them out.
dimadok,
This is one area where I don't mind Jews being held to an unfairly higher standard. This kind of behavior is a violation of everything we claim to hold dear about ourselves and both our religious tradition and history on planet earth. This video evokes pity and horror.
When you see some nutter on MEMRI you are probably convinced he or she is a nutter regardless of the agenda of that group. I feel the same way about this and the Max Blumenthal videos. The source and the audience don't change the contents if adequately translated. Naturally people here will froth at anything that makes Israel look especially bad. This video does.
These protesters are disgusting at every level and an embarrassment.
Hi Seanmcbride,
Here the ADL condemns all three from their extremist watch site.
link to accessadl.blogspot.com
"In the last several years, Wilders has been embraced by U.S.-based anti-Muslim bigots like Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, and has served as the keynote speaker at demonstrations organized by Stop Islamization of America (SIOA), an organization led by Geller and Spencer that promotes a conspiratorial anti-Muslim agenda under the guise of fighting radical Islam. "
So, is there a chance you sometimes leap on assumption rather than conclude on confirmation?
April 29, 2012 at 4:46 pm
tokyobk, so you rely on goy soldiers and cops to keep your nice way of life here in USA and use your thus secured time to make the lives of the native (also goy) Palestinians across the sea miserable on a daily basis. I guess you have earned that higher soul your G-d awards & rewards. And, hey, you didn’t even have to pay for it! Kudos to you!
Citizen,
You are revealing yourself, I think
I am an American and a Jew not and Israeli and not a political Zionist, reject any notion of higher and lower souls any racism against Palestinians. I do think that Jews should be able to live peacefully as equals in that region no more no less. Ideally one state, I have thought two states is a good and practical place to begin as it would bring Israel back to 67.
Why should I not be proud of my country, The USA?
So, seriously, why have you made such assumptions about me?
And PS, go to Arlington you will see Jewish stars, including that of my great uncle Mike and Crescents too, not just crosses. I have "goy" relatives who served even though they couldnt get seated at a lunch counter so please try your best to respect my right to feel as American as you.
The word goy as you project it on to me is as offensive as the assumption that I am a firster simply because I am Jewish or the co founder of a Jewish society (the kind which has as its mission putting Phil Weiss next to Shmully Hecht at the same table.)
Citizen,
You are revealing yourself, I think
I am an American and a Jew not and Israeli and not a political Zionist.
I reject any notion of higher and lower souls any racism against Palestinians.
I do think that Jews should be able to live peacefully as equals in that region no more no less. Ideally one state, I have thought two states is a good and practical place to begin as it would bring Israel back to 67.
Why should I not be proud of my country?
So, seriously, why have you made such assumptions about me?
And PS, go to Arlington you will see Jewish stars and Crescents too, not just crosses.
I love my country as much as yo and find the word goy offensive as the assumption that I am a firster simply because I am Jewish or the co founder of anJewish society (the kind which has as its mission putting Phil Weiss next to Shmully Hecht at the same table.)
Not at all since I live in America where Jew hatred at this point is practically non existent and where it does exist not only carries no weight but ensures the bearer complete marginality.
Hi Keith,
You are having a conversation with someone, not sure, but def not me since you ascribe all kinds of things to me by your many assumptions that I did not say and don't believe.
Anti semitism in the US is almost non existent, which happens to be my only country. There is some more antisemitism in Europe and more still in the ME. The popularity of the Protocols (which you can google) is troubling. I am sure some are buying this to study, some probably most are buying it because they believe it is a true document. Israel does not make this easier but it is not the only cause of prejudice against Jews which has a long history in both places. Not sure how much Phil or MJR can do about this, I hope a lot. Without a doubt Zionists have used antisemitism real and imagined to justify Israel and aggression.
I do love a good shmooze (both the yiddish and german meanings) and used to like wine.
I invited Phil precisely because he is also representative of Jewish opinion. I agree completely with Phil about the status of Jews in the US. We have as a group money and power.
I think Pamela Geller is a racist and in fact she was suggested as a guest and I declined.
If you have never heard the expression "son of pigs and apes" it really means Keith that you are having a conversation about somethng you just don't know a lot about, which is ok, but you ought to google, and correct not project ignorance.
The Protocols were and are believed by people. I own a copy too. I said people who rave about sons of apes and pigs and the protocols.
Someone who thinks a document is obviously bogus because he realizes it is bogus shouldn't lecture someone who studies history, btw.
Mooser, you know well as I that there are racists who hate Jews. Go to any neo-nazi website, go to the NOI website which is recently back obsessed with Jews, look at where the Protocols sells as a work of non-fiction.
I don't think most people involved in this issue are Jew haters.
If you can roll your eyes about it great, it means we live in a really safe time which we do, thanks to life in the US.
I do not think most people who support Palestinian rights are anti-Jewish.
I think there are ---- Individuals --- who hate Jews and Phil Weiss and MJR cannot do anything about that. If Israel went away there would still be people raving about sons of apes and pigs and the Protocols would still be a bestseller.
I do think that non-Muslims should not po poo Islomophobia and men should not roll their eyes about sexism etc...
No I don;t think Jews are inclined to hate arabs. I think individual Jews hate arabs and no amount of an Arab being nice to them or sharing their politics will change that - individual's- racism if it is truly core racism. Same in reverse.
Sigh. please read what I said.
Individuals. Individuals. Be they in the Muslim world or not. Individuals. Not groups.
He would be asked whatever the person asking him wants to Again, lots of people have schticks and agenda. My schtick is promoting a salon related to Jewish issues. There are Chabad cultists, Zionist cultists and certainly anti-zionist cultists.
I imagine the rabbi would ask him his Hebrew name. This is what rabbis do.
If his views being accord the respect they deserve meaning everyone will agree with him the answer is no. Not everyone will agree with him but he certainly has the right to speak them and the topic of Israel Firsters real or not is interesting.
You have an issue with Chabad, I don't. They believe all sorts of things that seem strange to me just as do Baptists and Shiites. By doctrine Islam teaches that the saliva of dogs and the sweat of kuffar is najis or impure. So what? its a religious belief that can be considered racist but most Muslims don;t really believe it. If Chabad believes Jews have a second soul thats also a big yawn for me. Its as I say schtick.
MJR claims his work reverses resentment towards Jews.
I hope so but not so sure it matters to those individuals who simply hate Jews.
You have the privilege to deny there is such a thing as Jew hatred or people who simply hate Jews. You are free to think its all made up but Jews aren't and should't be asked to, least of all by non Jews.
I can live with the same statement that I have problems with this Jewish state and that ethnic religious states are not desirable.
There were Palestinians who supported equality and those who wanted to drive out the Jews.
Most ethnic cleanings in the ME happened long before the modern state but of course they happened all throughout history.
I am not disagreeing that "the land without a people" existed as a concept before 1948 and I find it an abhorrent thought.
You and I share the ideal, I am sure, of a secular state where all groups live equally and protected.
I believe the next best step would be two states with a shared Jerusalem.
In itself, I have no problem with a Jewish state that gives refuge to Jews from around the world. I have no problem with Pakistan providing refuge for Muslims from India during the partition, though clearly there is both Apartheid and cleansing in that countries founding. Neither are ideal but this is the planet we live on.
I love America and what it has provided for Jews and others in spite of its history (and I am also descended from its slaves and -for reals because everyone says so- from the natives who were ethnically cleansed here).
I agree that we cannot say for sure if Israel has made things safer for Jews or not. I personally do not need to know there is an Israel to feel safe in the US.
And we must ask the question of Palestinians. Can Jews live as equals in Palestine? I hope the answer is yes. Are you sure it is yes?
Thanks for the dialogue!
Hi MJR,
You are also most welcome to come to Eliezer talk about your new blog, about the term "Israel First" as you see that controversy, or any other issue on your mind or from your long career on this subject.
Do those in the world Muslim and otherwise inclined to hate Jews really care about Phil Weiss and MJ Rosenberg? I want to hope so, but doubt it.
I will have a formal invitation sent to your mail which I hope you will take up as schedules work.
rgds,
obk
Set up would imply a person is brought in on a false pretext and then ambushed. Neither happened to Phil.
Hard to say who we would not bring -- trying to think of who has come that was controversial. Whomever we bring on the "right" or "left" garners complaints.
Al Goldstein came for dinner once which was, uh, interesting. His main topic of conversation was a "date" he once went on with Linda Lovelace. Gerry Springer, too. Lots of very cool non controversial people like the late comic book artist Will Eisner.
Our guest tonight is someone I cannot name unless this person choses to on her or his own later but is considered "worse" than Phil by mainstream Jewish groups.
In fact, for all your railing on Chabad, Shmuel, it is only because we have been completely independent that we can bring whomever we please. Chabad or any other organization would never approve our guest list.
I have no problem with what Phil does or says, though I disagree with him sometimes. Every human being needs to call it as they see it even where it goes against their tribes purported interests (and who speaks for any tribe authentically?). Being silent in the name of solidarity can be immoral as in the cases where Israel has trampled on the rights of Palestinians. I thank god every day that my clergy does not have the power to enforce their interpretations as priests once did and as imams seem to these days.
I believe Phil has made every reasonable effort to monitor the site and there is a lot less of the kind of thing I was referring to.
To repeat, I asked the question as a moderator who wanted to begin the conversation with a question often posed to Jewish critics of Israel. I was curious how he would respond to that, which he did. Its not my biggest hang up. I do think sometimes people like Phil get milage out of claiming to have been excommunicated which I said to him directly.
But frankly I just don't have the same view of Israel as most people here. You can call me a hasbarist or whatever or insinuate that I have not read enough or read the wrong things or am a firster or whatever other bs which functions just as calling any critic of Israel and anti-Semite does -- to shut down conversation.
I see Israel as a deeply flawed nation with a conflicted charter that began in war and blood in the context of the holocaust but also in the context of Jewish life in the Arab world. In itself a Jewish state is no more or less odd or improper than a Muslim or Arab one. Jews on a small piece of land that once housed Jewish communities throughout is not in itself an evil. I am totally ok with a Jewish state sharing Jerusalem.
PS some people at Eliezer including Shmully think I am nuts, naive, haven't spent any time walking the streets of Hebron, etc... and wonders of wonders the place still functions and we remain partners in the task of bringing people like Phil to New Haven.
And I believe most people here romanticize and contextualize the Palestinians out of deep and genuine concern but also out of a need to see the conflict as a simple battle of good versus evil. I see the Palestinians as in no way equal militarily, of course, but as adult agents. If the Gazans elect Hamas it is rational to conclude they support the agenda of Hamas.
Some people see 48 as a crime. I have a bigger issue with post 67.
You may agree with the reasons why Palestinians rejected partition but reject they did and war was fought with the intention to cleanse on both sides.
I fear two states is no longer an option but think it is the most practical solution.
In my dreams there is a secular state that protects religious minorities and welcomes exiled refugees and welcomes Jews who want to be close to their holiest sites and the land that figures in all of our liturgy.
Yes, moderation is precisely realizing that everybody has their schtick.
No, he does not.
Phil "decorated" the table long into the evening and was a memorable guest. I don't think anyone left that evening without liking him as a person whatever continued disagreements. If you have any other suggestions for mere window dressing in our grand project to dominate all opinion let me know! I am open to anyone having a turn in the guest seat except the raving narcissist Gilad Atzmon who has nothing good to offer Jews or Palestinians.
Re Chabad. Every group has their schtick and Chabad has theirs. Religion divides, and the subdivisions of course divide even more. All told, I am grateful for having the chance to spend time in that community and having met so many wonderful people.
Lastly, Shmully runs the religious aspects of the table. Members bring whomever they want. Its a Yale and Jewish organization, everyone thinks they are running the table frankly and everybody speaks loudly with authority. Phil gave as well as he got as you can imagine.
Thanks for concern about my soul, but if it is in jeopardy it is not for any open conversation that happens at the Eliezer table.
Yes, in my capacity as host I have remained silent while all sorts of garbage I disagree with is spouted. Since, as a host at a salon I am responsible for getting people to voice their opinions, some of which offend me personally. Then, I get to talk and others are quiet while I talk. That is how a conversation happens. I find the idea of "a land without a people" and denying Palestinian's their sense of identity to be abhorrent at every level and no one who knows me is not aware of this.
I certainly did ask Phil if he worries about people who are Jew haters using his site. Its a question many Jews ask and assume to be the case and I think it gives them an excuse, btw, to alienate people like him. I wanted him, as all my guests, to be able to speak openly and honestly and he did.
I think the dysfunctional conversation between Jews is like the urban renewal in New Haven, too many cuts and segregations destroyed that town (which is now being reconnected). That was the analogy not to I - P which no does not resemble New Haven.
...no God did -not- give Israel to the Jews...
Yes, I am The BK of tokyo BK.
I invited Phil Weiss because he is an interesting guy doing intersting things on a subject which matters to Jews and the larger world which is the only criteria for a guest of Eliezer. I wont out some of our other guests but trust me they are people that are both revered and reviled here. No litmus test. Or at least a very, very wide one. (prob would not have the grand dragon of the kkk... or, hmmm...). There is no commentator on I and P of any background that I would not invite and a few on schedule.
What I thought might happen did happen and happens pretty much every Friday during the year which is people eat, drink, and talk about serious things.
I think the conversation about Israel happens in various echo chambers and I pride Eliezer on being a place where Conversations are honest and I think that happened the night Phil came.
No I do not think the commenters here are vile I think some comments have reflected jew hatred, most crazy standards for Israel. Some commenters flip to provide any context of understanding for any group other than Jews and Israel. Some. Mostbhere imo romanticize the Palestinians abit thiugh I understand that given what many are going through. I give a little money to this site because I believe in free soeech for the Jewish world, so in short, no.
Annie, yes Shabbat is religious but also the main social event at Eliezer.
More random personal beliefs:
Indeally one secular democratic state, practically twonstates but alas that might be indeed dead.
Inwould live i. a secular Palestine before a religious Israel.
No, God did not give Israel to the Jews. God does not give land and land is not"Jewish" or "Arab" (one of my problems with the BDS platform). I understand why a rabbi believes that just as an Imam believes that his Prophet landed in Jerusalem on a winged horse making it Islams third holiest site.
Jewish paranoia makes sense, though Phil is not wrong that Jews now are rich and seure and the claim that only Israel makes us safer is unproven.
Nationalism and religion (redundant?) is dangerous in all groups.
All cultural and academic boycotts are obnoxious. I am against boycotting Pakistan, China, Iran inthis way too.
And, lastly the theme that gets me to post here sometimes: Jews are a natural and normal part of the middle east and north Africa. Helen Thomas can kiss my ass. Jewsih expulsions changed the character if Israel some as an entity conceived in Europe and enacted as a settler state (the nakba not denied of course - a human tragedy that Jews deny at the peril of our collective soul). Jews should be able to live freely among other groups there including in a small, secure Israel that gives rights to all its citizens and makes consideration and restitution to expulsed Palestinians. Israel was born in blood and war on artificial borders at the expense of indiginous peple (some of whom were trying to enact their own expulsion). and thatbis the origin of many countries especially my own, the US. I am with NF, however, Isreal exists as a legal country.
excuse typing. this is an ipad and I have jetlag.
"they" who let in people of all backgrounds are people of all backgrounds and yes youbare welcome to take it or leave it just nit change it into whatbyou need it to be for you two d cutout.
There are no social events at Eliezer that don't include Jews if all backgrounds and non Jews who are included among founders, members, speakers and guests.
Hi Dan,
As a fact, Eliezer has two founders that are African American and members who are not Jewish, including Protestans, Catholics and Muslim, as well as of every major racial groups.
So, you have made some racialist assumptions which you might want to own, if facts matter to you.
No, the white man is not the source of all good and evil on planet earth. Blaming the Ashkenazim for the decision of Arab run governments to expell their Jews is enfeebling, nearly racist, and by the way the exactly of excuse used to excuse the nakba: Well their generals told them to leave.
Do you actually believe that by the way?
You are either for or against expulsions and if you are for them when it suits your politics than you are just a partisan.
So wait, Taxi, were Jews expelled or not?
Unfortunately, Taxi, the governments who expelled the Jews also conflated Judaism and Zionism.
It might be trivial to you but in numbers, land and property it counts as ethnic cleansing and its part of the story of Israel which does not mitigate Palestinian rights but does mitigate the notion of Israel as only a European colonial settler state.
Krauss, he or she probably means it exactly as written.
But this kind of thing is stupid, really and embarrassing and counterproductive, especially if you oppose BDS. Let words and ideas flow freely.
Not sure what country you are from or if you have your own religious mythology but if you are American you are missing the point that the Amish actually do get to wear funny clothes and ride around in buggies and Muslims can wear headscarves. If you have a problem with it, its your problem not theirs.
Its an interesting link.
Please tell me you see the similarity of some of the reactions to what settlers say about foreign meddling in their supposedly fairly conquered territory:
"It is high time that Pakistan's Parliament looked at the need for a Free Texas (Arizona and New Mexico too) resolution. As to the continued occupation of Iowa by genocidal colonists of European origin this is a matter the International Community has ignored for far too long."
And yes to your answers. I think thank that expulsions, racism and indigenous property rights should be addressed evenly throughout the world. In that case, the 3rd holiest site in Islam would be at least half in control of Palestine and the second holiest site, the former Yatrib, would allow a Jew to step his or her foot in it.
I am making the point that you are helping me make by contextualizing Baluchistan. Mass expulsions, land theft, brutal suppression in Pakistan: "Its complicated," right?
If someone is talking about Israel and another changes the subject to Tibet, they are indeed changing the subject.
If someone is writing from Pakistan about racism and Apartheid, asking what they think about their country which by numbers has been as cruel as anything done in Israel, and which continues de facto and dejure as an Apartheid state, is legitimate.
You are either for or against expulsions, partitions and racism. I am not only being snarky. Jawad may be a universalist and genuinely progressive.
And, it is a shame the Einstein model did not survive. Jawad is right.
Sad that the Einstein vision did not triumph.
I am sure, Jawad, you are against, forced partitions, cleansing of indigenous people, and racism wherever it happens, yes?
link to youtube.com
Annie,
That is a very true quote, unfortunately.
However, when someone says they are doing something in the name of a religion or ideology it then brings legitimate scrutiny on that belief system and other adherents are obligated to clarify, as has been the case thankfully from, for example, Fayyad who said that killing children in the name of Palestine is a disgrace.
Things done in the name of Islam, Judaism, Zionism, The American Way, all bring legitimate scrutiny to those categories.
Hardly bumbling but yes, completely closed to Jews and the "white shoe" law firms as well. Firms like Paul Weiss came about similar to the firm that Buffet wanted to join and yes, as a fact, these firms which were set up for Jews that would not be hired in spite of talent at traditional firms were much more open to other minorities. I believe Lani Guinier's father was one of the first non whites to be hired at PW.
Maybe Jews overdo their role in desegregation but that segregation was no myth.
What is also missing from the Buffet story is that some firms owned by Jews such as Lehman existed from before Wall Street (it was a cotton broker) and grew alongside segregated WASP firms, so they were not completely a reaction.
I think the composition of the supreme court is interesting. Not a single WASP. All the justices are Catholic and Jewish, the people almost completely barred from the white shoe firms just a very short time ago.
You actually stumbled on it perhaps unwittingly, Atzmon thinks Judaism is a "trait" that can be above or below other traits, like being kind. This is the Spencer Geller line on Islam. Ones goodness is mitigated by ones Islamness.
PS, an bservant Muslim is never going to eat Pork or drink wine and wants to pray five times per day. Religious Muslims want to be part of the ummah and want to make the Hajj. Since none of those things interfere wi being a g ood citizen of any country, the rest of us just need to accept that sometimes a Muslim is going to put her or his Islam first. Those of us that can't accept that are just bigots.
Judaism initself is racism is his point and frankly that might be a legitimate discussion in a philosophy class or yeshivah (i wonder if people here know how much dissent is a feature built into Judaism) it is a useless and harmul position in the P-I discussion, and he is not giving it iut of love for his people, as he says. And That is is exacty what Geller and Spencer believe about Islam. No Muslim can be good as a practioner of Islam (their good qualities can override Islam). Its really sick, frankly. Again, I am all for open critiques of religion, it is the essentializing aspect that makes Atzmonthan useless as a Palestinian ally and irrelavent as a Jewish critic.
Yes, that is the Robert Spencer idea about Islam. One cannot pronounce the shahada and remain a fully human member of the world community, having sworn allegience to the ummah.
You are right of course that the Jewish expulsions do not form a justification for Palestinian expulsions or any policy which discriminates against them, but they do mitigate the European colonial settler entity argument some, and complicate the Jewish-Arab diad on all sides of the discussion.
OB is a Palestinian because he lives there and says he is one, but if you are being a purist, he is also an immigrant no less than any who moved to the area as an adult, which he did.
Its roughly the same on the wiki as in other places. about 3 mil ashkenazim and 2.7 mil Mizrahi Jews in Israel.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Thats not a test that works in general or one that supports the cause of Palestinian return.
Ariel Sharon was born in Palestine and Arafat was born in Cairo.
In 2012 many Israelis can go back three generations and more and of those that can't, many trace to the Middle East which, in the case of Omar Barghouti, who was born in Qatar, is also no challenge to his Palestinian ID.
This conflict is about establishing human rights for all people in I and P. People born there or who want to move there belong there, just as in any other part of the planet. The question is rights and the sovereign entity with establishes and protects those rights.
Do Arab Jews, the largest shared id in Israel, steal falafals and culture too? How abut sticking to the issues of discrimination rather than frivolous things that are in themselves bigoted, like the idea that Jews, as Jews, are interloppers in the Arab world in toto.
Iranians?
The power dynamic is a result ofwhich nationalism is on top for the moment, which now is Zionism though fallen dramatically in world opinion still well armed.
That is seperate from the fat that there are competing nationalisms. a very small percent of people involved in this issue are not following one or the other current.
Atzmon demonizes Jewish culture and religion.
He is an ex- Jewish Nonie Darwish or Walid Shoebat.
He should not be censored. He should be recognized for what he is, however.
Those who indulge him reveal themselves.
Most commenting on this site probably believe in one Palestinian state and BDS as a last peaceful attempt to get there, IMO.
You assume that what replaces Israel will be a democratic state where the rights of minorities will be respected.
And, read BIoC's statement that when Israel goes there will be no more Apartheid States.
Now, any example of systematic racism from around the world will be written off as not really Aparthied, since Apertheid is just what Israel does, but my response was to that statement.
I don't know what you prefer. I prefer peace and peaceful solutions. I have the right to tell anyone I want my opinion as do you. Though, I think if you do recommend war you should at least be fighting it yourself. War is a terrible option for the Palestinians, in my opinion. I abhor the violence committed by Israel in an effort to maintain a militarized state. You mentioned Washington in an effort to say that who am I (as an American?) to challenge other revolutions when my society began as a violent revolution.I pointed out that Washington was complicated, like this issue, both someone who held slaves and killed Indians and yet also helped shaped an amazing democracy.
BDS is a non violent movement by its own definition which invokes international law.
It is a legitimate tactic in my point of view, though I don;'t agree with it. I support two states with any minority populations given full rights.
If you prefer war that is your choice but I hope you are at least going to fight in wars you call for and not leave the dying to others.
Yes, the Israeli army is well armed and has killed more Palestinians than the reverse.
George Washington, since you brought him up, was violent and a (rather harsh -- I have read his journal) slave owner and Indian slayer. Also, his decision to be a Republican rather than an Imperial president, including leaving office, probably helped usher in an unbroken record of peaceful transitions.
He like this situation was many things and simplistic arguments of good and bad don;t work.
Well undoubtedly Apartheid is shaped for you whatever Israel looks like, so any of the copious examples from around the world would be excused away, but sadly there is racism and oppression of entire groups all over that world and will still be there if and when Israel is gone, including all over the ME.
Go ahead and boycott, its a nonviolent tactic which is your right.
But are you serious: "last apartheid state on Earth"?
I support any genuine peace effort. I believe two states is the best solution in the short term (100 years). I would like to see a world filled with states that protected their minority populations and without an ethnic or religious basis for citizenship. I would like the Palestinians to live in peace with free travel across a unified and self governed Palestine.
And I would like Jews to be able to live wherever they want in the Middle East including lands from which they were expelled or are currently banned.
BDS is a legitimate tactic, but I don't support all of their aims and I agree with NF that they are not being honest about their goals. Their leadership claims universality but only has a problem with one ethnic/religious state.
Hi Kathleen,
I share your skepticism when someone on the internet tells me they saw or heard something. However, OB did say he wants to see Palestine next to Palestine on one of the available youtube videos. If you google the phrase and his name you will see others discussing it. I will find it when I have more time and post the link for you. And again, he uses the term "Arab land" all the time which tells me enough. As would any reference to "Jewish land" by a pro-Israeli, or even Judea and Sumeria etc...
I have the policy, especially on the Internet and especially on this topic not to believe anything unless I see or hear it myself and perhaps you do too.
but I don't have time to find the exact talk where he said it (I think an interview with Amy Goodman) but he definitely said it and by the way the first item of his platform is end of occupation of "all Arab lands." You don't think he thinks Tel Aviv is Jewish land, right?
And that is what bothers me that Barghouti is sugar coating Arab nationalism for a Western audience. Not that he does it, but that so far he has not been challenged by his critics or other supporters of BDS who come from a rights perspective.
It is no problem for him, born in Qatar and raised in Egypt to become a Palestinian simply by moving there but Jews have only conferred not natural rights, again he said it on one of the YouTube videos, even Jews expulsed from "Arab" lands.
Barghouti is open to Jewish support and I have never seen him say anything that even hints at anti semitism but without a doubt he believes that a Jewish state in itself disrupts the normal and rightful order of the ME.
Maybe no one here cares, and maybe BDS will continue to grow (pressure on Israel that leads to negotiation is a good thing) but Arab Land vs Jewish Land will only lead to war and misery.
The full right of return means the end of Israel, period. End of its flag, end of Hebrew, end of sovereignty in every way that is possible for Israel and Israelis.
It means what Omar Barghouti says is his goal; to see two states, Palestine next to Palestine.
More importantly, Finkelstein is saying. Everybody knows this so stop pretending because it only plays into the hands of your opponent, alienates you from international rights allies who want to apply the law, and reveals deceptiveness.
Judaic studies departments, like Islamic studies and East Asian Studies departments, usually get started with private and foundation gifts and they range in quality depending on the university.
Re this general conversation. Why would't Jews represent Jesus as something other than a Messiah and in their own cultural terms? Why wouldn't Muslims see Jesus as a prophet, like , Moses on the way to the last prophet, Muhammad? Why wouldn't christians see Jesus as the Messiah.
They are different and sometimes competing faiths with a shared source.
These arguments could be made relevant to Zionism but predate it by almost two thousand years.
And who would wear this rainbow keffiyeh? Palstinians? Or, western activists that need to identify their movement, in this case queer rights, with the Palestinan cause?
By all means, bust Israel for pink washing.
But as long as groups like this insist on deluding themselves that "Hamas is part of the global left" to quote another well known gay leftist, Judith Butler, there will be no meaningful contribution.
Bust Israel for pink washing and bust the rest of the middle east for the lack of pink. Without any doubt Israel uses gay rights as a convenience. But gay rights in Tel Aviv are also a fact in embarrassing contrast to other ME cities. Embarrasing to western liberals, that is, for whom Israel must be the source of all that is wrong.
The fact that the head of a gender studies group at a major western institution criticizes the concern For gender rights as "estrogen washing" says all that is twisted about this inability to hold a simple moral standard for all.
If the wall and occupation is I moral, it matters not one bit if Palestinians (or Native Americans, Africans etc...) meet the standard of small liberal arts college PC values.
Blaming the refugees for their plight or denying the historical tragedy that befell the Palestinians would be, IMO, Nakba denial. Wort of all, any variation of "Land without a people."
That some Arab officers told them to flee is a documented fact just as is the kapo phenomenon in which the Nazis forced Jews to collaborate. Some Jews in Arab lands were Zionist spies, was the wholesale expulsion of Arab Jewry justified? Of course not.
I hope that that historical facts are precisely what are brought to debate here not causes for banning.
Intent may be harder and more time consuming to monitor and not practical, but I think it is the intent that matters most in these cases.
If someone is using kapos to imply the Jews did it to themselves, ban. If someone mentions kapos as part of what happened, is that an offense?
But, it's not my site and I appreciate the need to monitor when site owners get blamed fr comments.
Well you probably are an anti-semite then, since in conservative shuls 1) there is always An American Flag at a synagogue as well, placed in the prominent position, as a "Prayer for my country" which comes before the "Prayer for the State of Israel."
Whereas mosques often do not have any state flag which is absolutely their right without any bigots drawing out their preconceived bigoted conclusions about loyalty.
Certainly not.
That's first of all a huge moral problem and secondly, as you say, a PR problem too if Israel claims to be a liberal state.