Commenter Profile

Total number of comments: 4623 (since 2009-08-12 22:27:08)

yonah fredman

"i am a zionist who believes in a two state solution." This was my profile sentence for the last three years. Here is my update: The two state solution is striking in its simplicity and its legal basis on the 1947 partition resolution and UN Security Council Resolution 242 of 1967. A US president should certainly pursue this direction. But unelected to the US presidency, I am not so limited. Recent calls from various parts of the Israeli political spectrum to grant the right to vote (in Israeli elections) to West Bank Palestinians appeals to me. The trick is to turn this idea into a policy of the state. Granted this would not solve Gaza or the refugees, but it would be a giant step, if not a leap. Another addendum: Shlomo Sand is the last person I thought would "buck me up" in my Zionism, but he has. The attempt to dismantle Israel in the one state plans offered will not result in a solution, and I think that at some point the situation will clarify itself into forcing israel to turn itself into a nation of its citizens and to get Israel to withdraw from the West Bank. As Sand says things don't look good from here.

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  • On eve of University of California honor, Bill Maher defends anti-Muslim hate speech in Vanity Fair interview
    • quote from karen armstrong is in the post's first paragraph: this is ‘the sort of talk that led to the concentrations camps in Europe. The sorts of things that people were saying about Jews in the 30s and 40s.’

      Since the fall of the Shah in 79 there has been a conflict between nations that raise the flag of Islam and the United States. Currently there is a group called ISIS killing hostages that are citizens of the United States.

      I think the conflict between the US and much of the Islamic world is focused on a number of issues, which includes Israel, the aftermath (or enduring legacy) of colonialism, and one of the many factors of the conflict includes the difficulty of societies to adjust to modernity. I think that Islam was dominant in large regions of the world until recently and that dealing with the content of the Koran is a small part of the real problem.

      The hatred of Jews in the 30's and 40's had an echo of the theological battles of the previous thousand years, battles in which the nonJews had all the weapons and all the power of state and the Jews had suitcases and words to memorize so that they could be uttered without much trouble when they were being burnt at the stake. But the major hatred of the Jews in the 30's and 40's was not theological, but racial and economic.

      I suspect that much of what has been said by Maher has not been based upon a calm and knowledgeable reading of Islam, mainstream or radical. And I'm sure if you pick one of such statements I would agree that its content does not add to the debate and to the knowledge of the public. But just reading karen armstrong's statement without seeing which statement of Maher is being condemned as leading to genocide, it seems to be that her statement was over the top and would only serve to muzzle. If i had a specific statement's of maher's which was cited as the cause of hatred of American Muslims then I could deal with Armstrong's statement in a different fashion.

    • There is a battle of ideas regarding Islam and that battle of ideas is a very real battle. As in: what was Islam in the 8th century and what is Islam today? To muzzle that battle of ideas with the specter of genocide and hate a la Europe in the 30's and 40's, is to muzzle the battle and thus Karen Armstrong's statement is stupid, if one believes that the battle of ideas should be fought rather than muzzled.

  • JVP offers bold universalist Hanukkah message in the wake of Gaza slaughter
    • Hanuka's heroes were not universalist, although the occupying power did not believe in freedom of religion, so the idea of revolting against an occupying power and freedom of religion can be one possible lesson of the historical events. Although recognition of Hanuka is certainly not as extensive or as early as other holiday recognition, it is mentioned in the Talmud and the laws of lighting of the candles is part of the Jewish law books including the one compiled by Maimonides, which was hundreds of years before Zionism.

  • Israel will lose all American Jews but the crazies
    • The Likud would be best off if they replaced netanyahu, but i agree that the west bank and gaza are israel's two problems and a mere change to the Likud would not be enough. Yes, the Israel brand is worse off today than at any time and Naftali Bennett has lips that charm his followers, but a manner which alienates the rest of the world. But no, there will not be an open uprising in the next few months.

  • 'NYT' writer takes Salaita's side, saying U of Illinois violated 'intellectual and academic freedom'
    • the steady pain inflicted by Israel against the Palestinian people is something that I don't normally comment upon. but it is a remarkable pain that has been inflicted and I am sorry that my role here as adversary does not give me sufficient opportunity to comment on the suffering of the Palestinians.

    • Hartman- I am certainly biased in favor of Hartman. I met him, I come from his milieu. The comment of mine was in defending a man a few days after his death. i cover up the sins of the recent dead. this is my hypocrisy. this does not let salaita's words off the hook.

    • I am a hypocrite. I give hartman a pass, when I shouldn't.

      but guess what? no one has heard of hartman or cares about hartman and this salaita dude is now a famous representative of the Palestinian viewpoint, and no matter my hypocrisy or hartman's exterminationist rhetoric will change the fact that this new face of the Palestinian movement tweets some offensive shit. and you deal with it by throwing my words and hartman's words at me. I am not famous. hartman is not famous. salaita seeks fame and this tweet should be cited as part of his offensive pearls of wisdom.

    • quote: you may be too refined to say it, but i'm not: i wish all the fucking west bank settlers would go missing. unquote. 6:59 p.m. june 19, 2014 -

    • seafoid- Whatever the settlers should do, as long as the name Salaita comes up and his tweets are put to the test, that tweet will be the one that i quote. tweet and whine both have one syllable.

    • Whenever I read an article about Salaita and it quotes one of his tweets, but it does not quote the tweet that I find truly offensive, I consider it a bit of a cover up of Salaita.

      I am not part of the academy and I do not know what standards of free speech entail or not, but calling for the settlers to all go missing, when the missing at that moment was a kidnapping, is certainly more egregious than the relatively anodyne tweet quoted here.

  • Yes, Virginia, there is a liberal Zionist
    • First: The piece by Brownfeld asserts that there was/is such a thing as liberal Zionism- the movement of Buber and Magnus. But he dismisses that movement as insignificant and the Zionism which triumphed was not liberal.

      Second: the liberal in effect tells the 400,000 Jews who lived in Palestine on September 1, 1939: You should not be in Palestine. You should leave. And I'm sorry if this means that most of you will go to your deaths, but that's the way it goes. One must measure your survival against the destruction you will inflict on the indigenous and I choose the indigenous over you. So I'm sorry if it means your death. But that's the price you must pay.

      The 400,000 who lived in Palestine on that day in 1939 and their millions of offspring alive today would answer you: No. We choose to live.

    • The Old Testament is certainly not a universalist document — it is a tale of endless bloody battles between one nation and all the other nations. It is a nationalist document — a Zionist document.

      quote sean mcbride.

      well, sean, not precisely. although the tales of abraham, isaac and jacob and the exodus from egypt can easily be taken as a nationalist document, quite clearly history has shown that all you need is just a tweak here and there and abraham can be seen as the father of the nations and his discovery of the one god that Adam knew is a rediscovery. The exodus of Egypt can be taken as a nationalist message, but obviously liberation theology has shown, that it can be taken as a universalist message as well.

      it would have been sufficient to claim that no major jewish philosophy has taken the lesson of that early part of the bible as a universalist message, but you weren't satisfied with stating history (however falsely) you needed to malign the entire book and its possibilities.

      It is true that the stories of first prophets would fit in with the nationalism that you see in the first five books, but the last prophets: isaiah, jeremiah and ezekiel cannot be as easily dismissed. Isaiah in particular has many sections that are universal in nature; including regarding the Temple Mount: and my house shall be known as a house of prayer for all nations. 56:7.

      As for the wisdom books of the bible: Psalms, Proverbs and Job, certainly in Psalms a nationalist can find much to mine in that direction, but Psalm 23 is rather universal, no? and how about Ecclesiastes? Is that not universal?

      So clearly a nationalist is not lacking sources within the Old Testament to bolster their cause, but someone who dismisses the entirety of the Bible as merely a nationalist document, well such a person obviously is either ignorant or has an ax to grind? I don't think you're ignorant.

  • Liberal Zionists seek to strip Naftali Bennett of freedom to travel in hope of saving two-state solution
    • I think that a call to picket any synagogue or gathering whenever one of these foursome is scheduled to speak would be a more difficult feat than calling for a travel ban, which takes merely moments of signing a letter rather than organizational efforts of a picketing campaign. Before reading this item, I truly could not pick Uri Ariel out of a lineup and this is still true with Hever, who I never even heard of before. I have heard Feiglin speak and he is not charismatic. Bennett is charismatic and therefore scarier, although we will see how Feiglin does in the Likud primaries in order to really gauge how far off the right wing might be from taking over the Likud. I think they're still far off.

    • I understand the objection of true antizionists to the tepid attempts by liberal zionists to condemn four settler leaders. I dislike them too: feiglin, uri ariel, bennett and hever (who i've never heard of before). despite my opposition to the men and their positions and actions, i oppose limiting their right to travel to the united states or elsewhere in the world.

  • As US media awake to a 'nightmare' Israel, NYT brings Blumenthal in from the cold
    • tablet cites the wiesenthal center which cited blumenthal's chapter headings because of their zionism = nazism theme. does such rhetoric qualify for antisemitism? Not in my opinion, but it certainly reflects a style that is designed to rub many jewish people the wrong way. when yeshaya leibowitz, an academic, used it, i did not think it was particularly useful and blumenthal would probably cite leibowitz as his shield if not his reason. the decibel level of blumenthal is something that plays well with those that agree with him, but rubs others the wrong way. that in itself does not justify the antisemitic label. i know that zionism = nazism or israel flag equals swastika are quite offensive to many jewish people. the words offend me less than seeing the symbols. those pretty much are like calling my mother names (camus?). them's fighting words.

  • Saban confronts Bennett: 'Are you willing to cut commercial ties with Europe?'
    • When did Phil Weiss stop being a journalist and sign up as full fledged out to lunch propagandist? I'm not sure. But certainly this: "It wasn’t clear just what Bennett meant by these threats, but he implied that Israeli-made stents and chips that are now working would cease to work the morning after “you pressed the button” of boycott.

      Utter unadulterated bushwa. There was no threat that things would stop working the next day, it was a claim that Israel must fight its battle not by changing its policies, but by becoming indispensable as an economic ingredient in the world economy.

      Here i was complaining about graphics and mistranslated "grassy knolls" taken to extreme by contributors. But here is Phil out to lunch playing to the choir. If there was such a thing as disbarment in the "profession" of journalism, phil would deserve to be disbarred for this nonsense.

  • From Hillel to Sabeel: The path to unlearning Zionism
    • Welcome to Mondoweiss, Mr Derfner, where nuance is a dirty word, almost as bad as "dialogue".

    • Much of the Mount Scopus campus of Hebrew University was located in territory nominally under Israeli control and protected from the Jordanian occupation by the UN, as in this quote from wikipedia: "In the wake of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Mount Scopus became a UN protected Israeli exclave within Jordanian-administered territory until the Six-Day War in 1967."

      It was not available for use by Israelis, but it WAS NOT part of Jordan.

  • Mamdani's 'holistic' challenge: Anti-Zionists must persuade Jews they can only be safe by dismantling the Jewish state
    • mooser and roha dissing jewish languages. nice.

    • oy vey- a comment on your name. until recently i thought that oy vey was merely a Germanic phrase given a yiddish twist, but in fact- oy is a biblical Hebrew word meaning woe and vey is a Germanic word meaning woe, so oy vey literally means woe woe.

    • Zionism is worse than anything will take its place is the contention of people here and the end to that paragraph.

    • Edward Said said that he did not know what would happen to the Jews in post Zionist Palestine, but this respected professor from Uganda wants people to be convinced that they can know what post Zionist Palestine will be like? At this point there is nothing to point to a good looking post Zionist Palestine. The only answer of people here is that to suspect the worst is racist and that Zionism is worse than anything that will

      This project of convincing that a state is a danger rather than a cure is a project that's in its infancy and needs to advance to college level. Currently there is no assurance or even hint of assurance that the South Africa paradigm will predominate over the Algeria paradigm. And to pretend that all that is needed is a campaign of propaganda to open up people's minds and undo a very real fear is silly at this point of time.

  • Israel has no answer to BDS, Barghouti tells packed hall at Columbia
    • I have done no research on the efficacy of BDS.

      Currently the Middle East is a mess, in turmoil, and the images of journalists being beheaded predominates. If one removes Israel versus Palestine from its context, most people see Israel suppressing Palestinians. If one views it in the context: realists will ask: What will this new Palestine look like? Like the MB in Egypt? Like Assad, ISIL, like Iraq? What is the role model that can be pointed to as: see, this is what we will achieve when Palestine is no longer under the Zionists' control. In fact, there is no such example: Lebanon? Tunisia? Maybe I haven't studied enough to find the role model and I just assume there isn't one.

      BDS is in good shape because it does not need to appeal to realists, only to the idealists. It need not appeal to the reality of the region. It can remove Palestine versus Israel from its context and pretend that the region is functioning smoothly and Israel Palestine is the only problem.

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  • AIPAC seeks to blow up negotiations between Iran and US
    • Yes, Rouhani is now the leader. But Ahmadinejad left a big negative impression, his own doing, even though Roha thinks when he talks about gays he is saying something useful that deserves a positive spin. Sick.

    • It's nice to know that people like RoHa defend Ahmadinejad on the holocaust as a matter of free speech. People who are middle of the road- Juan Cole- attack Ahmadinejad on this issue, but thank god all people do not follow Cole's lead and instead wave the flag of free speech with a picture of Ahmadinejad as their leader.

      The revolution that will overthrow the elections system in America is not on the horizon and I for one thank God for that. Those who wish to compare the American elections to the Iranian elections and say that they are both suspect are obviously not interested in American opinion writ large but in preaching to those who agree with them. The topic of this post was a PR campaign aimed at Americans writ large. I am on topic, you are not when you preach to your own choir.

    • Iran is run by mullahs. Iran is suspected of faking its elections results in 2009 and reacted to the street protests in the aftermath of that election in violent fashion. The president (figurehead) of Iran for 8 of the last 10 years was Ahmadinejad, a holocaust game player, and a man who denied there are homosexuals in Iran. These are facts and Israel's media PR campaigns don't change these very negative facts.

    • There were two navies that Israel had to fear striking on the day in question. They were US navy and USSR navy. The idea that Israel would have attacked the ship because of secrets regarding the invasion of Syria or war crimes in Egypt, are merely motivations provided ex post facto. As in such an attack makes no sense, let's try to figure out how it could make sense. I don't know what happened that day. I know that there was a war going on. I know that Israeli forces in Egypt were taking incoming fire, the source of which was not ascertained, and any possible source for that incoming fire was suspect and had to be dealt with pronto. that's what war is like. take care of it now. so the possibility that despite the flags and clear markings that this was an accident cannot be discounted.

      Because of the Lavon affair and other arrogant moves by the Israeli military the possibility of high up Israeli army command of "take out that American ship, they're spying on us" cannot be dismissed.

      If Israel had received assurance from the US: we have no ships in the vicinity, which was in fact what was supposed to be if the Liberty had monitored all channels like an efficient ship would while in the vicinity of a shooting war, then shooting at a ship that displayed an american flag, but that the americans say had been ordered out of the zone, that then might explain part of the cause and effect of what occurred. (as in: they're flying an american flag, but they are not americans, for the americans assure us that all ships have been ordered out of the zone.) this is speculation. but certainly to exclude this fact: that an order was given, if not necessarily received, is to discuss the issue without a relevant fact in hand.

      This credulity: because the USS Liberty claimed to never have received orders, because they didn't monitor that radio wave, is indicative of misplaced credulity.

      another possiblity: the white house wanted the ship out of the zone, but the us navy did not want the ship out of the zone. or the commander of the ship felt like ignoring the command. this is conceivable. but the tunnel zone focus on blaming this on the higher ups in the israeli structure is more important than looking at all the facts and all the possibilities.

      and let us recall how this topic came up: we were discussing iran, as in: that was the topic of this post. and i offered an explanation that was unrelated to israel as to why the american public disdains the trustworthiness of Iran. rather than bolster the trustworthiness of the iranian leadership through some set of proofs or logic, instead, because I am Zionist, therefore the topic can be changed to the USS Liberty. This is not quite ad hominem, but it certainly is avoiding the point. The US public if it recalls the hostage crisis has good reason to disbelieve Iran and the fact that Israel also deserves, or more rightfully deserves, US skepticism is in fact avoiding the point: iran has earned its bad estimation in the US public's mind.

    • Thank you phil munger for clarity on how high up you think this order went. i did not say that the liberty defied orders (although that is not inconceivable) I merely asserted that it had been ordered to leave that place. the snafu whereby it did not receive its orders does not change the fact that those orders were given.

    • "The USS Liberty was not supposed to be there". From what I read the US navy had ordered the USS Liberty out of the zone? Did you read differently?

    • Philip Munger= Sorry for using such a casual phrase like bad taste in the mouth. sometimes i type the words straight out of my mouth and don't wait to consider the snide remarks.

      The USS Liberty was not supposed to be where it was. It had been commanded to move out of that area. That command was slow in being answered.
      How far up the israeli command do you think the plot to attack the USS Liberty went in the Israeli command structure? obviously not to eshkol, he was not in control of the army. as high as dayan? as high as rabin? who do they suspect made the decision?
      i was young, but i remember clearly the day the USS Liberty was attacked. That aspect of the day is in retrospect quite sad. how far up the ladder did this decision take place? i sense from the little that i've read that it was a time where decisions took place in a hurry. the israeli navy from what i've read felt deprived that it had not seen any action and the israeli boats seem to be the culprits of the actions.
      how often did the board get cleared at israeli headquarters. if a ship is sighted at 10 a.m. is the commander aware of the report at 2 p.m.? what was the israeli chain of command in controlling its violent activities of planes and ships?
      i have not done sufficient research into the USS Liberty. but have yet to hear how high up the Israel bashers think this decision was made.

    • I oppose further sanctions at this time. I support the negotiations, which DO NOT seem to be on the verge of success as inferred in this post.

      Anyone who was 10 or older in 1981 was left with a bad taste in their mouths from the experience of the hostages in Iran. The hold that this has on the public is demonstrated by the popularity of the movie "Argo" recently. The regime of Iran was until recently represented by Ahmadinejad one of the worst Public Relations images in recent memory. The foreign policy of the country is dictated by the supreme (unelected mullah) leader. No wonder they have PR problems.

  • A defensive Netanyahu announces elections hours after firing opposition members Lapid and Livni
    • if you object to dual citizenship write your congressman to change the law. I assume the law that would be passed in the US would allow for those with dual citizenship to choose without being strung up in the village square by a bunch of rubes with pitchforks.

    • i have dual citizenship.

    • Early elections are good. It means that we (Israel) are about to elect Bibi for the last time. The sooner his last term in office begins the sooner it will end.

  • Pssst! Is Israel going crazy?
    • mooser- explain to me again,
      how it is
      that one
      should not consider you a bully?

    • Quotation marks around a swear word, don't make it less of a swear word. Graphics of this sort quoted from some sick scary dangerous right wingers, is still use of sensational graphics. The eye sees way before the attribution and the logic counter with their weak arguments. The picture is the message, not the attribution and the logic.

    • ad hominem ad infinitum ad putzem.

    • philosemitic

    • A graphic of this sensationalist nature makes me wonder about Phil Weiss's "the Jews are the key to US policy on Israel" thesis. It would seem that despite this thesis, Phil tilts his blog in an offensive direction. That is: the only Jews who will end up agreeing with Phil are those who already agree with him. How is MW taking a role in changing Jewish opinion?

      Who is this type of graphic aimed at? It seems aimed at the comments section of MW, with its attitude ranging from fervently antiZionist to violently antiZionist. And its (the comments section's) attitude towards secular Judaism (as in: are secular Jews allowed to call themselves Jews or must they call themselves former Jews?) somewhere between hatred and disdain and certainly not philSemitic by any stretch of the imagination.

      This graphic is playing to the choir of those apathetic or disdainful of secular Jews and how does Phil Weiss think MW is to play a role in influencing what he considers a key demographic.

      Maybe he is aiming it towards the true believers and thinks that the stronger the antiZionists are in their solidarity and resilience, that eventually this will influence the Democratic party and eventually the US Jews of the moderate left of the Democratic party will follow their liberal hearts into the antiZionist camp. Maybe.

      But this type of graphic will entice no one except those who are already true believers.

    • I'll use an understatement and a euphemism. Israel is going through a tough time right now. But I don't think the photoshopped photos at the top of this post adds to sanity or depicts the essence of the problem. the choice of this graphic indicates a sensationalist tendency.

  • 'I observe that you are a fascist' -- Zahalka to Feiglin
    • The widespread use of the term Palestinian to refer to Arab Palestinians seems to have been something that occurred after the 6 day war. All other earlier citations are proofs that the term did not come out of thin air, but as a commonly used term even by the Palestinians, it was not common at all.

    • His one tweet was far worse than uncivil. the "i hope they all go missing" tweet.

    • mooser- funny that you should mention "lascivious".

      piling onto the anti salaita band wagon is the net effect of pointing out that his tweets were far worse than merely uncivil. he is out of a job and ultimately that seems to be the work of "donors" and ideally the academy should be above pressure from donors, so pointing out flaws in his current campaign add up to approval of his firing, which is not my intent.

      i do not know that his tweet was blood thirsty. the formulation i came up with immediately after the perverse use of lascivious (how embarrassing to use such a term when i merely meant that he wanted blood) was that salaita wanted to be fritz fanon and jackie mason as one. that formulation although maybe not nearer to the truth of the tweet was certainly more interesting than a mere accusation of bloodthirstiness, and certainly less embarrassing than using a sexual term, when all i meant was that he lusted for blood.

      the conflict between palestinians and zionists has shed lots of blood and lots more palestinian blood than zionist blood, so maybe salaita is justified in wanting to even the score. but it's tough to believe the contortions of logic using a thumb like the talmud learning rabbis who parse the text (pilpul, right?) and figure out that salaita's words were innocent. just goes to show the lying propensity of activists. (unspecific to this cause or bent, a general fact.)

    • I am unsure of the definition of "fascist", but it is a dirty word to me and apparently to Feiglin. It is a street protest word and for a speaker to kick out a member for calling him a fascist seems to be within his parliamentary ken.

      The law against Zoabi is a much more serious issue. and the nation state law, of which ever form is passed is also a serious issue, but kicking out an MK for a session because he called the chair a fascist- not a serious issue.

  • Elizabeth Warren visits Netanyahu, even as he undermines US negotiations with Iran
    • i was fortunate enough to be born in the us. my citizenship cannot be revoked.

    • i've been following the israel arab conflict (as it was then called) quite closely since february 3, 1972, the first time i landed in israel. I spent two and a half years in a yeshiva located in the west bank. those years included the yom kippur war which was as traumatic for israel as the second intifada, if not a little worse.

      If i can sum up my opinion in a few words it would be that i don't decide the future, i react to the situation. I'm sorry if i am not as radical or as silent as you wish i would be. i really don't think the comments section of mondoweiss makes two farts worth of difference. mondoweiss, itself does make a difference, but some zionist mouthing off in a peter beinart supporting role on an antizionist web site, not much difference. and by the way. the amen chorus, not much difference either. i like to have a place where i can attempt to clarify my position on the issues. and if i fall short of your images of what a good person should be or what a good anti zionist should be or what an american should be, then tough luck, the US has lived for 238 years or so, and only about 150 years since the civil war, in a way the second birth of this country, and in a way it was born again as a result of the movement against jim crow of the 60's. the Jewish people in one form or another has existed over two thousand years and even if zionism is not the answer to the continuity of the jewish people, the existence of the jewish people is certainly a major factor in my life and i will not apologize for that.

      i was fortunate enough to be born in the us. my pla

    • just- I am a dual citizen, and my closest relatives live in Israel. i have US citizenship and Israeli citizenship. If Israel and the US get into a shooting war I would probably stay on the sidelines. just- where do you live? are you a US citizen? btw- what right do you have to ask me if I pledge allegiance. Is there a US law that requires me to pledge allegiance? Are you in the employ of the US FBI or some other agency. Or does commenting in the MW comments section give you the right to pose questions of loyalty? Have we ever had a discussion that got beyond name calling?

    • Netanyahu would love to be able to kibosh the negotiations with just a few words. What role the Republican Congress will have in Obama's negotiations over the next 7 months is not clear. But as reported in the press, there is a very real gap between the US position and the Iranian position on two issues: timing of the ending of the sanctions and primarily the number and types of centrifuges that Iran will keep under the agreement. A very real gap. This headline "as netanyahu seeks to undermine" is just an added extraneous inaccurate twist. It seems as if Weiss cannot write a sentence with Netanyahu in it, that does not include some blame. It seems almost out of habit. It certainly does not reflect the reality of the negotiations.

  • Efforts to suppress Palestinian activism on US campuses won't work
  • The Minds of Others: An interview with Max Blumenthal
    • This concept that Jewish has no meaning in a secular sense, that CitizenC proposes here, negates history. Being Jewish had a meaning in a secular sense in Germany between 1933 to 1945, I'm sure he would agree. And in that sense, in Germany which is still "dealing" with its black page of history, that Jewish meaning in a secular sense has a very real presence.

      Zionism is in fact built from several building blocks and one of them is that the Jews constitute a people. The facts of the actuality of Jewish nation building running over the interests of the Palestinian Arab people is not sufficient, to me, to negate all aspects of Zionism, but only its implementation in a specific place and time. In fact the Jews at certain times are more like a people than at other times. In 1944 in Europe, the Jews were a people. In 1881 in Czarist Russia the Jews were a people. In 2014 in America, Jewish peoplehood is not as clear as those two previous examples. But an analysis of peoplehood and the Jews deserves better than mere dismissal, in fact it deserves analysis and not disdain.

    • mooser- ad hominem, ad infinitum. ad putzem.

    • CitizenC- Zionism is also the source of US Jewish privilege.

      if you could be more specific on this, I might be able to understand what you are saying. Max is contending that Jews are privileged in America (because they are rich and have accrued power as a result of merit or shall we say freedom to associate), and since nothing stopped them on the basis of their ethnicity. thus they are white and merited and therefore they are privileged. What is your contention? That they are privileged because they support Israel? They are privileged because other Jews give them a leg up in their chosen professions?

      Please be precise.

    • eljay- junior high school.

    • "this political ideology (Zionism) is permanently altering what it means to be a Jew. " Max tells us. Therefore it is appropriate to ask, what does it mean to max to be a jew. (various answers according to the Pew polling include: making the world a better place and having a sense of humor.)

    • I understand the objection of blumenthal to the 'Zionism makes up for the Holocaust' aspect of German guilt towards the Jews. I understand that a truly universalist take on the Holocaust would mean that all oppression is bad and if only the Germans would be willing to learn that lesson they would be more welcoming to minorities. But to focus on the Jews' whiteness is surely over the top. Universal lessons are tough to learn, specific lessons are far easier. But the whiteness of the murdered Jews is really besides the point. hitler didn't kill them because they were white and Germans don't feel guilty because they were white. Who knows why Hitler killed them and history has given this past to the German people. Some wish to erase the past. Some idealize ultimate lessons from the past. But in fact the past is quite specific. Germany murdered Jews and that is the fact. Their whiteness is irrelevant.

  • Poster questioning Zionism makes her feel 'unsafe', Wellesley student says
    • horizontal is engaged in an ad hominem attack. he refuses to deal with the idea of a community and communication, but instead dismisses anything i say because of some side issue (zionism). do you or do you not agree that pro choice and pro life groups on campus owe each other time to debate. i think that on a campus they owe each other that courtesy because of the (facade) nature of a campus as a community of people seeking truth.

      on the streets of nyc, pro palestinian people should expect pro israel people to show up and either yell at them or interact with them. if they choose not to interact, then the yelling at them is the logical next step.

      but horizontal refuses to deal with idealism (campus) or reality (nyc) and instead refuses to talk about the idea but rather the source of the ideas. my name calling was in reaction to that.

    • horizontal- your name is one dimensional. which indicates your inability to communicate, a word that comes before democracy.

    • A university is a community, and the root word of community and communication is the same one. Belonging to a community dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge entails responsibilities that are not incumbent on a human at home with internet access. the university community needs/demands/ requires some kind of communication with other members of the community. let us suppose that there is a pro choice group and a pro life group on campus. they owe each other the time of day, the ability to communicate with each other about the basics of their stands. those who do not believe in dialogue are fine, if they do not belong to a community, but once you belong to a community, that aspect has demands.

    • "It is certainly the case that Palestinian solidarity groups don’t go in for dialogue with Israel lobby groups because dialogue has failed to lift the occupation one iota." The fact that dialogue has not alleviated the occupation one iota, there is purpose in dialogue when you live in a community where your opinions are being voiced in the public square. those in the public square who utilize their right to free expression "owe" those who disagree with them some modicum of interaction. it has little to to with the results in the middle east, it has everything to do with the nature of a democracy and free speech in the public square.

  • 'What is your religion?' question surprises two American visitors to the occupation
    • walid- Hebron is a fuck up and Israel is responsible for whatever laws they have instituted as a result of the fuck up that is Hebron, that they allowed to become a fuck up by allowing settlers in hebron and the west bank, still to state: "this is the way of Israel" when in fact, this is the way of Hebron (ruled by Israel) is exaggeration and propaganda.

    • annie- a few qualifiers should be added to make what you heard more accurate: Some ultra orthodox communities expect women to shave off their hair once they get married.

  • Palestinian students fear for their lives during attack on train car in Jerusalem
    • mariapalestina- I am calling this the murder of the praying rabbis. that's the title in my mind. there were four praying rabbis, any cop would be extraneous to that headline.

    • The soldier/policeman who was killed defending the rabbis, certainly deserves mention. but the target of the terrorists were the rabbis and that's why they chose that locale to loosen their gun and their hatchets and the police who came to save the rabbis were collateral damage. if the terrorists had attacked a police station and a rabbi had come to protect the police from the terrorists... but it's not like that. it's just that the target of the terrorists was a synagogue. Soldiers and cops leave for work every day knowing that they are on the front line. so there is a difference. Civilians and soldiers are different sorts of targets.

  • 'Palestine is an anxiety' for Americans-- Salaita in New York
    • seafoid- again this is the quote:

      "you may be too refined to say it, but i’m not: i wish all the fucking west bank settlers would go missing."

      if you are so devoted to the palestinian cause that you are busy trying to interpret this as something innocuous or related to something other than wishing that violence would be done; Kidnapping and all that kidnapping implied until that point in time, then i admire your devotion to the cause. the palestinians need loyal soldiers in their cause, people who would be willing to kill or lie for them. they can use you, you're a good liar.

      but check out oudeh basharat from the same time (june) who stated (paraphrase) that weak nations cannot afford the luxury of violence, that because they are small they must try to maintain a purity that larger nations need not maintain.

      there will be violence from both sides and propaganda to accompany the violence, but ultimately an act of violence like the kidnapping and murders of june or the murder of the 4 rabbis in prayer, is most useful in that it will incite violence from the Israelis and that violence against Palestinians will help the cause. but here you are making excuses for salaita and his advocacy (jackie mason style) of violence.

    • seafoid- Salaita's tweet had nothing to do with anything you mentioned. you are lying and you know you are lying. is the soapbox that precious to you that you must lie if that gives you a chance to stand on it?

    • tree- I change my mind regarding lascivious. i meant it in terms of the big bad wolf of the three pigs disney cartoon. blood thirsty.

      but i do not think he was bloodthirsty, he was primarily trying to be a comedian.

      and if you really believe that he meant that what he wanted was a peace process that led to the peaceful withdrawal of the settlers you are full of it. he meant, violence, that's why others are too refined to say it, because he meant violence and if you asked him today, unlike you who are full of it, he would say, he was being a comedian, but the words he would admit were displaying his urge of violence towards the settlers. unlike you he is not a bullshit artist.

    • seafoid- I did not advocate for or against the uncivil mister salaita's employment. i was commenting on his "comedian" stance, laughing at the kidnapping. durante used to say, "everyone want to get into the act." kol hakavod. but then to cloak yourself in the mantle of "civility is repression", well if you want to be jackie mason, then you want to be fritz fanon, you've got too much going on. it's more than just civility as frilly dances. this "civility is repression" is bushwa. this laughter is cruel.

    • annie- last time i commented at length about your laughter regarding the kidnapped (murdered) teens i was told to cease and desist and when i didn't i lost my immediate access (without moderation delay) to the web site. your laughter on this issue is suspect. your attitude on this subject is suspect.

      what if i wrote: i hope you go missing. that's really laughable, ain't it. no, it's not. it infers foul play, not voluntary bus plane or automobile.

      it really is not funny.

    • by the date of the tweet was it not assumed by most here at mw and elsewhere that the missing teens were murdered and a statement, i wish they'd all go missing is in fact lascivious talk. licking his lips.

    • quote: you may be too refined to say it, but i'm not: i wish all the fucking west bank settlers would go missing. unquote. 6:59 p.m. june 19, 2014

    • if salaita had tweeted, i wish all the settlers were stabbed or shot to death, would that have only been a question of civility. because his tweet was less direct, that does increase its civility. but if this is really about civility of the regime of oppression then it should be okay to tweet, i wish all the settlers were stabbed or shot to death.

  • Netanyahu's 'battle for Jerusalem' can't end well for any of us
    • For example, the declaration of independence emphasizes Israel's Jewish nature and democratic nature and these days the cabinet and soon the knesset wants to pass a bill emphasizing the Jewish nature and not mentioning the democratic nature. this is a step backward in Israel's relation to the Palestinian (aka Israeli Arab) minority. and I would oppose it, not on the basis of separation of church and state, but based upon minority rights.

    • horizontal- it is not clear to me that the zionists could have reached an agreement with the palestinians from the very beginning. i doubt that is true.

      as i have written elsewhere i favor separation of church and state and it would be ideal if the world eventually follows america's example. but it's not going to happen tomorrow. and so to base one's argument on a feature of statehood or governance that is not widespread in the region of the middle east is to offer an argument that rings true in america, but does not jive with the reality of the middle east.

      the zionists are not now about to share. that is an issue that deserves attention. the sharing i envision is along the 67 cease fire lines and the israelis are not near to agree to that. that is a point that can be mentioned. to term it in phrase of separation of church and state rather than "recognized bourndaries" is to put it in american language that is largely irrelevant to the middle east.

    • mooser- like amerigo bonasera i believe in america, and that includes the separation of church and state, and if the whole world had separation of church and state the world would be better off, but to pretend that everywhere else in the middle east there is separation of church and state, except for israel, is patently false, so the absence of a separation is the fact of the world as given.

      mooser- you are a bully. try not to use my name when i am not involved in a thread, and please don't use it more than once, when i am in a thread. overuse of a person's name is a form of patronizing. ask any fifth grade teacher. they must have done it to you a lot when you were in the fifth grade and called into the principal's office. shit rolls downhill so on the internet i have to get the leftovers from your fifth grade agita.

    • Israel is in bad shape in its dealings with the Palestinian people. Things have worsened under Netanyahu, but the first war on Gaza occurred before netanyahu, so it's not just netanyahu.

      Israelis are living in a bubble not realizing how this looks and how american support for Israel will end some day. i can't predict precisely when it will occur, i can only predict that eventually the Democratic party will oppose Israel.

      i love the city of jerusalem and the further jerusalem goes down the rabbit chute of hatred, the more it pains me.

      i respect those who wish to help the Palestinians achieve justice. It will probably be a bloody path between here and there. if i oppose those who harden their hearts against the Palestinians, I feel it is a "natural right" to oppose those who harden their hearts against the Jews living in Israel.

      the equation of Israel with Nazi Germany is a license to harden one's heart. the upcoming battle will involve killing and it is probably best to harden your heart. it is totally logical to harden your heart. then you have become a soldier in your cause.

    • seafoid - you are clearly addicted to the soapbox.

    • seafoid- the nature of the conflict between 2 hostile populations where one occupies and colonizes the other creates a predictable dynamic. fine.

      but you're like a broken record repeating the same thing over and over again, and i really don't want to hear it right now. i realize that the right wing assholes like caroline glick are not waiting 168 hours, so why should a dude like you wait 168 hours. all i'm saying is that at this point in time, i find you utterly obnoxious and stuck in your own frame of mind. i cannot really engage with you intellectually at this time. why is that so hard to understand? or are you just in a habit of getting up on your soapbox that you can't stop even for thirty seconds?

    • seafoid- give me 168 hours after the deed of har nof and then i might react less emotionally. but for right now i have to say that you are obviously someone who believes "the ends justify the means".

    • horizontal- I comment in other places on topic and have yet gotten into a discussion with you on any issue that i can recall. demanding a proposal from me is a rhetorical trick. i have no answer. i am not in charge. i am on the sidelines watching. from my behavior and reactions i see that i am opposed to BDS and the rhetoric i approve of comes from bradley burston and peter beinart. they have no answers either, but that's where i am on this issue. if you wish to engage in discussion of the issues, go ahead. if you wish to demand how i will change the reality, you are being a bit of a street corner preacher and not a real discusser.

    • mooser- you're a clown and a bully. don rickles comes to mind. i wonder what you're like in person.

    • mooser- self emancipation is a pamphlet that was written by pinsker in 1881. very imperfect, flawed, but clairvoyant. but in 2014 the politics of 1881 is the topic of jokes and nonsense from you, so i offer this sentence with trepidation.

    • Op ed from ynet writer calling for elections to replace Netanyahu:
      link to ynetnews.com

    • the idea of separation of church and state is such an easy phrase to attract americans who favor the separation of church and state in america. jerusalem and the middle east is really not about the separation of church and state. the different churches: meaning mosque and synagogue, need to learn how to share and that is something more basic than the separation of church and state, a phrase that is convenient but basically irrelevant. it isn't coming soon, but the ideal of jerusalem has little to do with separation of church and state and much to do with learning to share.

    • It is time for netanyahu to go, to quit, to be voted out by Likud or for Likud to be voted out of office. they/we will probably get someone more right wing than bibi (meaning: bibi made the bar ilan speech of 2009 and he who will follow bibi will disavow that speech, although bibi's speech was not serious.) but that is better than bibi. someone fresh will give a chance for jerusalem to get a breather. it won't last long, because the basic right wing policy is really the problem rather than bibi's personality, but we need a break from bibi. he must go.

      just a personal note: my brother who is ultra orthodox knew three of the victims of tuesday's attack. the attack on the train stop that took place two weeks ago, is three hundred yards from my parents' apartment. even the hagana train station in tel aviv where a soldier was killed a few weeks ago is somewhere that i have personally used. i have lived five years or more of my life in Jerusalem. i don't think that because i have a personal stake in jerusalem that my political conclusions are more valid than those who have spent in total less than half a year in jerusalem, but it does mean that as a human i have particularly feelings that are aroused by these attacks and therefore increased sensitivity to the insensitivity of an idiot like bibi and also to the insensitivity of many of the commentators here.

  • Inadequate religion
    • dickerson- I read that article by persico with great interest and found it quite enlightening and providing nuances to the argument among halacha followers and nationalists on this issue. (although the article by persico was quite objective and academic, yesterday i read an op ed in haaretz attacking him (among others) for lending moral support to the temple mount radicals, but i had never heard of him before the article by him in friday's haaretz.)

      when i was young, i observed halacha and did not go up to the temple mount, when i stopped observing halacha i did go to the temple mount a number of times. the view of the mount of olives is quite impressive and i can see where the urge to pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (to pick a phrase) might be tickled by one's mere presence on that spot. but peace is more important than the urge to pray and peace (or the lack of violence) is surely up for grabs these days and troublemakers stir up trouble and want to get credit for the next intifada and this is not the time to talk about freedom of religion, when there is a war on the streets going on. i probably will not see the un"occupation" of the temple mount take place in my lifetime, nor sufficient peace of any sort so that the jewish urge to pray on that spot can be viewed without the nationalist (bayonets) implications.

      ironic: the phrase that the spot brings to mind is: "for this will be called a house of prayer for all the nations" from Isaiah. but this is so beyond where we are at this moment, that it is sad.

  • For Obama officials, synagogue attack is 'pure terror' -- and not a word about attacks on Palestinians
    • About 8 to 12 years ago for about four years between 2002 and 2006, I used to go to union square park in nyc and argue with the pro palestinian crowd. some of them were obtuse, but some were more human than others. and in the aftermath of killing of israelis i'd hope for some input of a human nature, and it would most often be totally missing in the obtuse ones of the crowd, but after some conversation i could elicit some words of true humanity from a few of the nonobtuse ones.

      the nature of a blog, without human eye contact and the freedom of a real street corner conversation is in fact less likely to lead to the "some word of true humanity" that i would sometimes hear.

      the war between the zionists and the palestinians is ugly and it will present many murdered dead bodies, including all the dead of gaza this summer (particularly the civilians, but in fact, all the dead) and the relatively small number of dead in jerusalem and other parts the last few weeks. people have to make a choice to allow themselves to feel. i know that no matter what i say right now about my feelings regarding dead Palestinians will not satisfy the demands that my words measure up to the demands that I make on you. the nature of the typewriter key board versus the in-person nature of physically being on the same street corner really does not allow for real human interactioin. (except when it is as hate filled and blood thirsty like "american" and his praise of patton).

      in fact my opposition to the war in gaza in 2008 and 2009 was a reaction to the body count and my inability to bear it any longer. the result is obviously insufficient for the israel bashing crew here, but in fact my own political position has changed as a result of a human reaction.

      also: the embarrassment that amira hass referred to was specifically because the killings were done in a place of worship. the palestinians actually respect worship and that's why they were embarrassed (at least in this circumstance in the reportage of hass). people around here think, for the most part, that religion is evil, particularly the jewish religion and in fact the palestinians have respect for religion, including the jewish religion, and that goes a way to explain the difference between the reaction here and the reaction that hass experienced in israel/palestine.

    • Bumblebye- Well, you make it clear that you are happy these people were murdered. Clarity is a step forward. no, let me amend that. You are not happy, but not upset either.

      I assume that the bus driver was murdered by Jewish extremists. These extremists are dangerous and immoral. They should be caught and imprisoned for long sentences.

    • although the level is the junior high school yard rather than the halls of the networks, the reaction: "you have a hardened heart too or first" is essentially a political reaction, emphasizing the point.

      here's what amira hass wrote in wednesday's haaretz:
      "Palestinians believe that all means, including armed struggle are legitimate to fight the occupation. but in private conversations, even those who support killing Israelis seem embarrassed by an attack on civilians at prayer."

      Pro forma condemnations are better than no pro forma condemnations, but it is this element of embarrassment that I find utterly lacking here. Maybe on the West Bank, where their lives are on the line, they are allowed the luxury of embarrassment and here in the peanut gallery, only hard hearted realism is the only option for those not on the front line. but the embarrassment that hass described finding among the Palestinians has been utterly lacking here in the comments section, at least of this post.

    • There are two types of reactions to such an event: a human reaction and a political reaction. Phil and the commentators here have provided the political reaction that one would expect here. But nary a word in the direction of a human reaction. Hardened hearts, anyone?

  • Muslims' beliefs are 'untrue' and 'ridiculous,' 'Salon' author says, offering support for Maher's intolerance
    • To compare death threats against Gideon Levy and the firing of Helen Thomas to the fatwa against Salman Rushdie is symptomatic that your logical system of analogy has been ruined by sitting inside your bubble and preaching to the choir.

  • Yad Vashem
    • The move to self emancipate that I was referring to, did not include a specific location for that independent state. It may be impossible to separate the strands of history, but in fact when trying to understand the dynamics of history it is useful to treat the aims or urges as they exist in their simplest form. The dead ended nature of the Jewish presence in Czarist Russia was clear to most people and took three different moves towards resolution: emigration, revolution or self emancipation. the smallest group was in fact those who were serious about self emancipation. and I admit that the eventual location for that self emancipated state led to a place that was already "taken" and involved overabundant dependence on bayonets and on world power bayonets. but the urge towards self emancipation in itself is noble.

    • RoHa- The largest population of Jews was ruled by the Czar and that was the primary reality. The secondary reality of the progress of the West: US, Britain, France and Australia is relevant and especially after 130 years that the progress has been more consistent, the relevance of the freedom in the West can be considered a type of counter argument to the "need" for independence. But in 1881, the primary reality was that of oppression and not the light from the Anglo countries. And in fact the light from the anglo countries was insufficient in the 20's to provide a place for the Jews who wished to leave the soon to be killing grounds. So the light of the west was in fact insufficient over the short run.

    • One out of every four comments by mooser contains something serious. this is the one. Yes, indeed, the urge for independence was correct, but the means that it took included taking advantage of geopolitical realities of the world, such as the world powers. in fact if israel today were as conscious of its need for interdependence it would be in far better shape than it is. but the urge for independence was a noble one. possibly an impossible one. but a noble urge.

    • I have never heard a Jew in conversation refer to a golah jew, it is a golus jew. in hebrew it is galut. golah jew is some kind of translation of the hebrew into an english phrase that i have never heard that juxtaposition except now.

      the move to concentrate Jews so that they could try to get in control over their own destiny and not be dependent upon the largesse and the kind hearts of others certainly made a lot of sense in 1881 Czarist Russia. In 2014 there are two large jewish communities one in the united states, which is covered by the Pew Report quite extensively and one in Israel where Netanyahu and "no exit" thinking hold sway.

  • US Jewish voters have more favorable feelings about Netanyahu than Obama
    • A poll taken on election day of the 6th year of the second term president's administration, in which the president's party gets whupped by an impressive margin and the anti president forces have been on the rampage blaming the world and all its discontents on the president and such a poll reveals that Jews feel negative towards that president in much smaller numbers than the voters at large, but in larger numbers than one would hope for... this is not a poll to be alarmed about. it is a moment a snapshot.

      the attitudes of the american jewish public were shown in the pew poll. it is tough to believe that they have changed that much since then. journalism- the first draft of history is a shoddy business if a poll of remarkable depth is not mentioned once in a post about a poll taken barely 18 months later. this is shoddy, omg, i can't believe this, look at this, journalism, rather than an attempt to analyze the american jewish adult reactions beyond the snapshot.

    • mooser- you're a game player.

    • mooser- the game player. a truly serious person. anyone who says anything against him, must be because his logic and his arguments are so strong. he is a true addition to a circus. game player.

    • moose, the game player, plays some more.

      here's the link to the poll.

      link to pewforum.org

      connection to and attitudes towards israel is in chapter 5 beginning on page 81.

      the poll was done over four months from february to june of 2013, with 70,000 phone calls and 3 thousand jews responding to about fifty or so questions. dividing people in five or six different categories. it is clearly a serious poll.

      but you are a game player. and it must be for spurious reasons that i call it a serious poll.

      game player, mooser.

    • some more internet game playing from the moose/dog.

      go to the pew poll and see how serious it was. also see who they polled and the different answers that those polled gave. it is clearly a very serious poll.

      but you are not serious. you are a game player. play away game player. play away.

    • mooser- no one says "golah". in yiddish it's 'golus' and in ivrit it's "galut". only an am haaretz would say "golah".

    • I think the difference between support for the democratic party versus support for obama is the true measure of the opposition to obama on the issue of Israel. Thus jewish negatives regarding the democratic party are 38%, but jewish negatives towards obama are 44%. That 6% is support for israel. not an insignificant number.

      i think this poll was inaccurate in comparison with the pew research of a year ago and focusing on a fly by night poll like this one is something that is useful for organizations like j street and campaigns for president or congress, but they are nowhere near the accuracy of what pew polled a year or so ago.

    • mooser- I feel that American jewish zionists will not lead the charge towards changing Israel policy, but will follow the lead of the elites.

      That is those that consider themselves liberals will follow the lead of the elites and those who do not consider themselves liberals will attempt to solidify the conservative sense of fear of the unruly Arabs. but in the democratic party, which is still the prime location of the Jewish voters, the Jewish ability to balance support for israel and democratic party values will prove impossible over time, but the thrust of Jewish american opinion will lag behind the rest of the party. Jon stewart and peter beinart represent those who will not lag behind, but most American jewish supporters of israel will lag behind.

      according to pew 69% of jewish adults care about israel. and 43% consider that support for israel is integral to their jewish identity.

    • german lefty- there is no answer to the abyss for a jew. period. all attempts to answer it fall flat. and that includes torah and zionism as well. let me put it this way: in the mind of jews searching for an answer to the abyss, zionism is one of the answers that appears on the screen.

      also, i bet you lots of the jews who live in germany come from the east to a better life. i don't think you should preach to them about leaving the past behind. history has not been kind to them. which part of germany you come from? i'm guessing from the west. i don't think someone from west germany should preach to the eastern europeans who seek a good life in germany that they should leave the past behind. that's just obtuse.

    • US Jews have a far more educated perspective on Obama than they have on Netanyahu. Edward Said remarked I believe, that US Jews basic education about Israel is Uris's Exodus. Their/our support for Netanyahu is primarily automatic, knee jerk. US Jews have given far more thought to Obamacare than they have to settlements on the West Bank. And the alternative that US Jews see to Obama is Romney or McCain or Hillary. The alternative US Jews see to Netanyahu is war in Syria, chaos in Egypt, ISIS in Iraq and Hamas in Gaza. It would/will require quite a bit of education before the knowledge of US Jews is such that they've even heard of Gideon Levy, Amira Hass or Avraham Burg or Marwan Barghouti.

    • German Lefty- German Jews. Until 20 years ago there were 60,000. Now there are twice as many. Mobile jews, as in Jews who did not live in the country (or parents) 20 years ago, might have a distinct tendency towards certain political views. Jews who live in Germany in the aftermath of the abyss, certainly have to have the abyss in mind, and though Zionism is not the only answer to the abyss, it is certainly the predominant one of most Jews who self identify and so yes, my guess is that German Jews are more Zionist than US Jews. US Jews can be ignorant or apathetic towards recent Jewish history in a way that German Jews could not be.

    • W. Jones- I am of the older generation. I opposed the war against Gaza. I think support for the war against Gaza is understandable, particularly when removed from the context of what occurred in the preceding month on the West Bank (suppression of Hamas). I think that peace is not on the horizon, but despite this pressure should be put on Israel to negotiate borders on the future Palestinian state. Most of those in the poll agree that peace is not on the horizon and they would oppose negotiating borders without peace on the horizon. If the conflict is not resolvable (I agree in the short term) these people view pressuring Netanyahu as dead ended. I feel that the two state solution needs the negotiation of boundaries as a basis for the future, but strategically it might be considered a bad chess move to change the "disputed" territory into "occupied" territory, which would be the effect of negotiating borders.

  • Israel bans renowned doctor and human rights activist Mads Gilbert from entering Gaza for life
  • Video: Routine exchange on a bus reveals racism embedded within Jewish Israeli society
    • ANNOUNCEMENT TO ALL READERS OTHER THAN MOOSER:
      I consider Mooser, three quarters of the time, to be an utter waste of time. upon occasion i will react to his nonsense with name calling and mischaracterize his statements. For example: if he says, "of course those thieving settlers ought to be afraid" I will say that he is happy that they are afraid and in fact wants to see them dead, whereas in fact, he only says that they ought to be afraid.

      To Mooser- You are a junior high school bully, who justifies your immature behavior by saying that your cause is just. but in fact you are a bully because you like being a bully and the justice of your cause does not mitigate the fact that bullying people gives you a thrill.

    • Bumblebye- if you think that mooser's words are limited to the illogic of my arguments, then you have not been reading them as carefully as i have.

      mooser- you are a game player who is also an antizionist. your antizionism i accept. your game playing is just internet nonsense. who puts a ROtFLmao as a punch line to your argument. an internet game player. that's what you are.

    • mooser- on other issues: you want to relieve yourself on my shoes and then have me provide the photos of the time you peed or shat on my shoes? not going to happen.

      on your desire to see dead Zionists. maybe I overstate. but there is no dialogue with you, just tossing of garbage and epithets and you should expect at the very least: verbal excess from me. you deserve no less.

    • please, mooser, according to you, a bus driver should have no right to inspect the packages taken on a bus, so why discuss it at all. those stealing zionists deserve to get blown up, isn't that your bottom line, and all this discussion is merely your lawyerly side rather than your justice side. your justice side just wants to see those zionists get whats coming to them. period. so this discussion is just a plaything for you.

    • Seafoid- You aren't opposed to security guards at the entrance to israeli bus stations, are you?

      You are opposed to racial profiling. You are so opposed to racial profiling that you equate racial profiling to segregated seating on southern buses. I hear you. I disagree. but in the realm of rhetoric it is closer to common demagoguery than it is to wile e. coyote.

    • Walid- There is inspection when one enters a bus station. I do not object to that. That the bus driver would be in charge of the security of his bus is not different than the inspection that exists at the entrance to a bus station.

      I want there to be a law that satisfies the urge of the public for security and minimizes the invasion of privacy involved to a bare minimum, without allowing every tom, dick and harry to demand; let me look through your purse.

      mooser- drivers experienced the 2nd intifada and to equate the looking into purses with separate seating is taking analogies to the cartoon level. Wile E. Coyote style rhetoric. Rhetoric for kindergarten and two digit I.Q.'s.

    • Watching this video I found myself siding with the Arab woman who was harassed by the Jewish Israeli passengers. I visited Israel several times between 2000 and 2004, which was prime time for blowing up Israeli buses as part of the 2nd intifada, so I am aware of the impulse to wish to inspect the belongings of any "suspect" who gets on a bus. In fact, I do not believe there was one woman who blew up a bus ever during the intifada. There was one woman who blew herself and some others up in a store, but not a bus. Nonetheless I realize the fear.

      If this is a public bus, I would think that the bus driver has the right to demand to inspect any passenger who gets on board. I do not think passengers have the right, but it would not surprise me that the driver would have the right. I am not sure what the law is.

  • What is the vision of Jews who want to replace Al Aqsa mosque with temple?
    • mooser- I don't need to prove it to you. you know it.

      if we are hauled into a court of law i will start bringing evidence, but you deny it, only because you can. you know i speak the truth.

      you pee on the guests with regularity. You shit on the guests at least twice a year.

    • hophmi- As an ideal, it would be great if the Muslims could share the Temple Mount with Jews so that Jews could pray there. There's plenty of room. But we are not dealing with an ideal situation, but one of violence and force. Given the situation, toying with the status quo is playing with fire.

      Oh, and arguing with a moose will only get you so far. He is the pet around here and instead of knocking him on the nose when he evacuates his bowels on certain guests, the moderators here instead chuckle and call him "good boy". The idealism of the rules of comments is easier to implement than the ideals regarding the Temple Mount, but the moderators really don't care about the rules.

  • Dempsey bucks Obama line by praising Israelis for Gaza tactics
    • seafoid- I was opposed to the war, although if a mode of survival, as in an easing of the siege (first time products from gaza being sold in west bank and israel in 7 years, which means since hamas takeover, is a taste of what could be done) can be found, the violence can be explained as the means by which a modus operandi was found.

      (yes, in a better world it would not take a war to go from point A, the pre war siege, to point B, the modus operandi that i refer to. but in israel and maybe the region, there is very often a "need" for a war to precede a change in the status quo.)

    • Here's how I read this: The US military is involved in fighting wars against urban populations not dissimilar in many ways from the fight Israel had with Gaza and in those wars, in fact, until this point of time, the US military has done less to minimize civilian casualties than what Israel did in Gaza and thus Dempsey feels that there is something to learn.

      Human rights advocates are not impressed by Israel's efforts for to them, the war is bad and any effort is almost by definition less than optimal and these efforts compared to some unseen alternative (it's not funny, so to propose each building having a phone number posted for the Israeli army to contact in case of an attack seems to make comedy out of people's deaths...) are certainly less than optimal. So a general who is fighting similar wars is interested in emulating Israel, and the human rights advocates who are against all such wars is unimpressed by Israel's efforts.

  • As world marks 25 years since the fall of the Berlin Wall, Israel's Wall has become a new global icon for oppression
    • There are those on the right wing of israel, Moshe Arens comes to mind, who are opposed to the wall and would favor taking it down. To put their point bluntly, in terms they wouldn't use, it is the boot on the Palestinian neck in the casbah of Nablus (or to be less artistic: it is the system of collaborators developed among the occupied Palestinians) that stops the suicide bombings and not the wall.

      The wall will not come down soon. It would take a leader with vision, either right wing or left wing, but some vision or another, to take down the wall. Netanyahu is not a leader with vision nor is anyone with vision on the near horizon for Israel's leadership.

  • After deadly attack Netanyahu vows ‘iron fist’ as clashes and closures rock Jerusalem
    • In June when the Israeli teens were kidnapped (and killed) in the West Bank, I felt it was relevant to at least mention the fact that the attack occurred in occupied territory. If the car murder that occurred the other day occurred in territory unclaimed by Israel in its application to UN membership that is relevant, but it is also relevant that it occurred in territory that was held by Israel in June of 67 before that war. If it is not relevant to old geezer or to talknic or to talkback, then that is okay, too. there are others reading this website who are not as doctrinaire as the three that i just mentioned and to them, the facts of where a nationalist murder took place are relevant. whether there is sufficient cause for the justification of this nationalist murder is really up to the individual news reader, but giving that news reader the relevant facts as in where precisely the nationalist murder occurred is the duty of a journalist. a duty that MW does not view as important apparently.

    • Shingo- I don't have the armistice maps in my hands, but my understanding is that the train station is within 67 Israel. The article infers that the train station is in Sheikh Jarrah or east Jerusalem and this is not true. It is in West Jerusalem within feet of the 67 border.

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