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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Bernstein is not listed with the long list of senior staff at the White House's Office of Public Engagement. So, he's a junior staffer. I wonder how many other ethnic constituencies have staff liaisons at the White House. Interestingly, one of the senior staffers, Danielle Borrin flaunts her Jewish community experience in her bio.
Good job, Phil, putting the idea out there.
A few years ago, the New York Times published a B'tselem picture of settler violence on its front page, above the fold. My response was to send B'tselem a check covering the cost of a video camera for Palestinian witnesses.
In our age of constant police surveillance, it's great to see citizens (in this case, occupied residents) use the camera a a mighty weapon.
Thanks, Annie.
This video drives home the point of the settlers' exercise - expanding their domain into Palestinian land.
Poor IDF soldiers, all dressed up for battle and nowhere to go. They wouldn't be carrying more ammo or be better camouflaged if they were parachuting into Teheran. Instead, here they are, doing crowd control for the settlers. As this video shows, their role was to hold back the Palestinians while the settlers illegally entered and publicly demonstrated their claim to Palestinian land.
Among these soldiers are good boys who, on weekend furloughs back home a few miles towards the Mediterranean, will complain about those nasty settlers. Once the weekend is over these soldiers will head back to base for some more complicity with the settlers.
Chaos,
I will miss your contributions. I hope you will reconsider. Your voice is vital for this forum.
If it's any comfort, I continue to learn from the thoughtful responses of commenters such as yourself to the mouthpieces of Israeli propaganda.
The video in Yossi Gurwitz's atricle shows a Palestinian fire truck in the village. I wonder if the settlers let the truck through to the bush fire.
Whether or not the fire was started intentionally or inadvertently (from gunfire? expelled cartridges?), the settlers' intent the moment they illegally entered the Palestinian fields, through the fire incident, their murderous shooting of the Palestinian protesters and the IDF's involvement, all advanced their goal of seizing the Palestinian fields by moving the scope of Jewish control outward from Yizhar's perimeter fence towards the village.
Thanks, Annie for promoting this discussion from an earlier comments thread.
I thought this pattern of "Sabbath violence" would be interesting to Americans, Jews and otherwise: Orthodox Jews violate the strict Sabbath laws and the spirit of Sabbath peace by using violence against the Palestinians - ad majorem Dei gloriam. This violence on the Sabbath day drives home the chasm between standard concepts of religion and those of the settlers.
This "Sabbath violence" is a marker of the ideological settler. To the best of my knowledge, other Orthodox Jews, such as the Haredim - even those who live on the West Bank - do not suspend the Sabbath laws in favor of attacks on Palestinians.
If it's true that the settlers set the fields of dry grass aflame as a pretext, that would make sense. Ancient Jewish law (BT Eruvin) cites an attack by (non-Jewish) robbers on "straw and hay" as sufficient to justify a Jewish counter-attack on the Sabbath. At least one Israeli Orthodox
website made the explicit connection between this Saturday's shot-to-kill incident and this ancient Jewish text.
Finally, the frequency of such settler violence on the Sabbath is likely prosaic. The men are home on the weekend. There's plenty of time to get into mischief.
(Of course, the settlers will say the same for the Palestinian villagers.)
I knew some Germans in the 80s in Israel and they had that German self-hatred, or at least, self-doubt. One of them, whom I got to know well, came to Israel in search of healing. She is no longer dealing with these issues. Others opened up to the complexities of Israel, and became aware of Palestinians. My impression is that Germany, overall, has long since moved on.
Here's my attempt at psychologizing Applefeld: His disdain of all things German is representative of his generation's attitudes. Entering Zionist Israeli society as a teenage boy must have left a strong impression, perhaps creating a new trauma. I wonder if Applefeld didn't feel the need to prove his Zionist credentials, and is still stuck on that place. Native-born Israelis of his generation famously looked down on Holocaust survivors. The hyper-masculine new Hebrew Man saw the traumatized, European refugees as a vindication of their own rejection of Europe. There was no way Applefeld was going to write in any of the European languages he spoke, including his native Yiddish.
What's Israel doing to "irritants" with advanced US warplanes, German submarines and nuclear missiles?
In the next version, I see one streamlined hi-tech gizmo that can soothe both the violent and non-violent strains of irritants with just one button.
From Michael Oren in the WSJ article:
Israel may seem like Goliath vis-à-vis the Palestinians, but in a regional context it is David.
and a Goliath all over again in US and world politics, which is what Oren is addressing.
That casual addition of the word "seem" is delicious in its hutzpah. Israel's overpowering command of every kind of top of the line materiel, its domination through the use of police, secret service agents, informers, not to mention torture, not to mention its control of Palestinian water resources, roads, medical treatment, international travel and other aspects of life only "seem" to make Israel look like a giant brute. In reality, and in the proper "regional context", the Palestinians are actually dealing with a nation of soft-spoken, musical-loving poets.
When dealing with appearances, it's all just a matter of perspective. If you think you're seeing Goliath, you're wrong. Michael Oren will help you see that you're really looking at David.
Why do you think Michael Oren is so concerned about BDS?
Are you also keeping tabs on Israeli terrorism of Palestinians? Taxi reported that Israeli warplanes routinely violate Lebanese airspace and fly aggressively around Lebanon; the ongoing Occupation is a machine of violence and so on and so forth.
does the deal include the revocation of privileges
This isn't Israel doling out prison privileges. This is Netanyahu capitulating to the Palestinian moral high ground because he is terrified of a Palestinian hunger striker dying. Netanyahu is convinced that this is a good deal. This is an Israeli declaration of faith in Hamas and all the other Palestinian factions. Israel sat down with Hamas, negotiated a deal and signed it.
Haaretz is reporting that today, Netanyahu returned 100 Palestinian bodies that were being held as bargaining chips in Israel.
Does anybody know how many more bodies of Palestinian militants Israel is holding on to?
There's some truth to that. Attacking the Moslems is - to borrow a term recently used by Mitt Romney - a Judeo-Christian enterprise. The Jews of AIPAC may be sitting in the driver's seat but the Christians are eager to head in the same direction too. Not just for the money.
Oleg was paraphrasing the Talmud (BT Sanhedrin 44a) in its gloss on a verse from the Book of Joshua. The scope of the statement is limited and subject to much debate over the last 15oo years.
The thrust of the Talmud's statement is that a sinner is still a member of the community. This statement does not address a Jew who is not guilty of any infraction but the desire to leave the community. As I've posted already, there are Halachic ways for a Jew to opt out of the Jewish community.
Oleg is an honest representative of the official Israeli mindset. The State of Israel counts foreign-born children of expatriate Israelis as Israeli and inflates its Jewish census in other artificial ways too.
@ Oleg -
I brought specific examples of how a Jew who, out of personal conviction, no longer associates with the community, is no longer considered to be Jewish. A concrete expression of this, is that, according to Jewish law, you may not desecrate the Sabbath to save such a person's life (Mishna Berurah, Shulhan Arukh, Orah Hayim 329:3)
I already quoted sraeli law, which follows Jewish law on questions of Jewishness.
In reponse you asserted:
Most of the rabbinical authority that debated on this point agreed that that is the situation.
Would you provide references to support your statement?
What are you credentials to speak for rabbinic authority?
Would you respond to the rabbinic point of law that I referenced. Namely, that, per Judaism, a Jew can elect out of the Jewish people?
Another thing is that you can’t unbecome a Jew even if you change religion
According to Jewish Law, a Jew who converts to another religion (mumar lete'avon/lehac'is) is considered to have left the community of Jews. Jews can, and have, been banned from synagogues and the community (Spinoza was just one in a series of those who were excommunicated). Jews who convert to Christianity are treated as outsiders and are denied the benefits of membership in the Jewish community.
Israeli law also limits the Right of Return to children of Jews who do not practice another religion.
All Chosen People can choose to become unchosen.
After kristalnacht in November, 1938, The US government could have taken in Jewish refugees as the British government did.
But I was talking of individuals. Citizens can lobby, spread awareness etc., the kind of work that people here do. On the other side of the spectrum, Hannah Arendt shows convincingly, how everybody has moral agency - including the Gestapo. Nazis could speed the murders up, as the did in Poland, or go slow, as the did in Denmark. And those resistant Nazis did not risk their lives or even livelihoods to do that.
Oleg -
I don't agree that belief in God/atheism is a moral lesson in and of itself. And your description of the human cruelty we see in the news every day is also not a moral lesson.
We the Jews need to be able to protect our selves, nobody else will…
The reason I am alive today is thanks to the kindness and dedication of a group of Jews and non-Jews. My mother would have died in the Holocaust of not for the principled stand and great effort that these people took.
So, the first lesson I learn is that, when others are silent around you, try to notice what's going on and take a stand on behalf of the victims.
What is the moral content of "never again."? What is in my control that I would have done differently if I were targeted the way my grandparents were? I don't know what my family could have done differently, from a moral or a practical standpoint, to have escaped the Holocaust. I think there is nothing more they could, or should, have done.
If you want to focus on "never again", I would direct that at the American and, yes, Jewish bystanders who could have done more to save Jews. Today, in the case of the Palestinians, we are the bystanders and there is plenty we can do. Israel claims it is acting in the name of all Jews, dead and alive. It persecutes the Palestinians and threatens the Iranians in my name. So, I have the moral responsibility - and opportunity - to counter that.
Oleg - Many Holocaust survivors have learned compassion for those who are oppressed today. Does your appreciation for the predicament of German Jews in the 30s give you a sense of what a Palestinian must feel, harassed, barred entry to their homeland and hampered in international travel? What is the moral lesson you draw from the Holocaust?
1) Note on terminology: it's "Agudat Yisrael (or Israel)" or "The Aguda".
"Aguda" in Hebrew means "union". So: The Aguda = The Union.
2) Interesting that the less insular modern-Orthodox Yeshiva University rep, Rabbi Blau is at odds with the very insular ultra-Orthodox Aguda.
3) Look how Zionism has become the universal Jewish dogma. Back in the day, the Aguda was founded in Europe as an anti-Zionist group. Today, see how much of the speech of the President's envoy to the Aguda group was about the President's support for the State of Israel.
This is why the U.S. cannot afford to let Israel make peace with the Palestinians. The only thing of value that Israel can give us if we are not religious is endless war.
There's an idea for a new Israeli innovation: Exportable Hasbara! If it could work for Israel, perhaps it will work for your regime too.
To dictatorships and other mortally flawed regimes around the world: Come to Israel to learn vital skills that ethically-compromised states cannot afford to ignore. In Israel you will learn how to:
1. Develop a national narrative that appeals to the superpower's dominant religious group.
2. Focus the world's attention on your cool industries.
3. Develop a mythology of victimhood.
4. Intimidate your detractors.
Let Zionism be a light to the nations! A beacon that makes even the darkest regimes shine!
I couldn't find that on the RTE website. Please provide a reference.
Jeff Halper has noted that Israel's hi tech industry is heavily involved in military contracts. For instance, Elbit's technology is used on the separation wall. (Phil makes the same point out at the end of his article. ) Maintaining low grade violence against the Palestinians boosts the Israeli hi-tech industry. You can't beat the label: "Tested on the battlefield." Israel needs to keep its battlefields active enough to lend credence to this claim.
Given how dependent one of its leading industries is on war, it would be disastrous for Israel to have peace.
They can only focus on Israel as an industrialized, Western country because, right now, there's no violence against Israelis. In other words, it is the Palestinians' commitment to non-violence which gives Israel the space to bring in droves of tourists and sell the brand. And Americans, at some level know this. It wasn't so long ago, when Americans were terrified of going to Israel.
Not to argue that it's possible to change people's minds or stay close to those who see Israel as good, but I find, that there is usually an opening for making this point. Yes, things are calm there, but only on the Israeli side of the wall. On the other side, there is violent Occupation. My experience has been that most Americans object to the settlements.
RoHa,
That makes perfect sense. If there's one thing that just destroys wonderful music, it's people performing it. George Bernard Shaw used to go to concerts and listen to the entire concert with his eyes closed. He may have been on to something.
You may have seen clips of settlers in white shirts attacking Palestinian olive farmers. The settlers wear white shirts on the Sabbath and religious holidays.
Rabbinic Judaism developed the concept of Sabbath to the point where it supersedes a whole list of Biblical commandments.
The settlers reading of Judaism is regressive. They promote "The Land" to supremacy. The settlers have revived a defunct Talmudic law that states: if non-Jews are encroaching on Jewish property in the Land of Israel, you are required to violate the Sabbath and take up arms to fight them off. Palestinian olive farmers, who insist on continuing to grow their olive trees right next to Jewish settlements, fit the bill.
The scandal involving Israeli rabbis who publicly banned the sale and rental of Jewish-owned apartments to Palestinians is a similar case.
Shunra -
Thanks. I'm familiar with the term Hamoro Shel Mashiach (The Messiah's Donkey) from Kook theology which fuels ideological settlers on the West Bank. 100 years ago, "the Messiah's donkey" was a stratagem of the devoutly religious to explain how come the Jewish Age of the Messiah was led not by the devout but by atheists. The donkey provided a solution; the atheists are the donkey that heralds the Messiah. The atheists will build the roads and towns. And then, the religious, will infuse that "body" with spirit.
From the way Israel is going, the plan seems to be working.
The Messiah is taking over from the donkey.
I agree that it is accurate to point out that Jewish religious thinking kept alive some pretty nasty stuff. True, if you add up all the exemptions "mipnei darkhei shalom" it's a long and substantive list - but nobody ever does. Thus the concepts of discrimination in Jewish thinking were kept alive into the modern era, even if they were only on the books.
My impression was that "mipnei darkhei shalom" is more common in practical Jewish law. I read it as inculcating the importance of harmonious relations.
As you note, Maimonides (among others) explicitly distinguishes between how to conduct affairs when Jews are powerless and what to do when they have power. Maimonides is significant because his 12th century code of law is the most expansive, including laws associated with the Land of Israel and the Messianic Age. This is useful for the settlers who believe they have both.
The difference is that non-Messianic Halachic Jews such as the ultra-Orthodox may have callousness towards non-Jews based on attitudes of discrimination such as the one you cited, but the settlers dig into the really nasty stuff of Maimonides that makes attacking Palestinians on the Sabbath a religious requirement.
RoHa, I forget which country you are from...what is so egregious about the Liberal Party, or, for that matter opera.
Now, if you were to say, a shrill soprano or a wobbly bass, I'd feel the same way.
Citizen -
1) That's the point. Judaism was never meant to be militarized. On the contrary, the founders of Rabbinic Judaism went to great lengths to hide, explain away, or supersede the militarism of the Bible. Therefore "armed Judaism" is a contradiction in terms.
2) Regarding usury and states tolerating their Jews, I think that the history of thew Jews can be explained to a large degree as a collaboration, if not collusion, between Jews and the majority, such as Christians. At certain points in Europe, it was theologically convenient to the Church to have the Jews cowering, alive but humbled, under their protection. As you point out, the Jews' prediliction for moneylending and being the middle man in general was useful to non-Jews and advantageous - given the repressiveness of the Christians - to the Jews.
3) Many of the tribalistic rulings of Jewish law come from an age when the boundaries between Jew and Gentile were as obvious as night and day. But already in the 19th century, leading rabbis voided the usury ruling that you referenced. The first modern denomination of Judaism, Reform Judaism famously expanded the scope of interest of the Jew beyond the Jewish community. Other modern denominations, including the Orthodox have followed suit to greater or lesser degrees. The 19th century rabbi, known as "Malbim" expanded the ban on usury to include non-Jews and explained away the traditional ruling in the context of ancient Israelite religion, as not being relevant in the modern world.
I see the State of Israel as being regressive in their attitudes to non-Jews. Israelis embrace separateness. Zionism models itself on a mythical, lost world that predates Rabbinic Judaism. Zionism idealizes the world of the Bible, bypassing 2,000 years of rabbinic commentary.
My experience of Jewish life is that the boundaries between family, religious life and cultural community are more fluid than that. Anyway, finding the non-Zio version of any of those three is not easy to come by.
As Shmuel has explained, being Jewish is not a private matter. Being Jewish means being part of a community. Therefore, your premise would equate Judaism with Zionism.
@ Oleg -
Since you agree that Israel depends on the US, our opinion as American citizens has an impact on your life.
Democracy happens every day, not once every four years. As a US citizen, I believe that participating in activism such as Mondoweiss is more valuable to democracy than casting my ballot in elections. That is certainly the case in the US where my vote doesn't count in most elections, local or national. The last time I voted for the city council, my alderman ran unopposed - just as he has done in at least five other city elections. My vote for president in November will be symbolic, since my state is one of the many that are not in play. So, I take elections with a grain of salt.
I do vote but I value citizens who advocate and participate in public affairs more than those who limit their participation in democracy to voting.
Oleg, you mocked the bloggers of Mondoweiss for no good reason and then complained when you got some of your own medicine back. You won't get much respect around here with that attitude.
you guys really overestimate your influence on Israeli politics.
In the end i go to the voting table and decide who will represent me in the Knesset and what policy i want implemented.
The Israeli politicians let you play the democratic game of voting, but don't fool yourself that you have real power.
You may be interested to learn that the West Bank settlement project was authorized, not by the Israeli government, but by the major world Jewish organizations. Similarly, Israel's nuclear program, airlift of Ethiopians and even the formation of the state itself would not have been possible without the financial, political, moral and logistical support of Jews and Christians around the world, and particularly in the U.S.
I wonder if you have spent any time outside Israel and had the opportunity to appreciate how Israel is the product of forces much larger than itself.
Makes sense. I was talking about recently arrived Israelis in the U.S.
I imagine that, in Israel, Israelis feel more secure. Although, I expect German are a special case.
@ Klaus - as others have explained, all Israelis (and many Jews) who come out as anti-Zionists pay a social price. It strains relationships, sometimes to the breaking point. I know of cases where coming out as an anti-Zionist has cost people their job.
I had a close childhood friend in Israel. We lost touch in recent years. We spoke a few times on the phone and made tentative plans to meet that never came to fruition. A year ago, he suddenly contacted me by email and almost immediately started to harangue me about my blog, on Israel. My efforts to avoid a blowup confrontation only slowed him down a little. It was quite unpleasant. Since then he has not responded to my emails. I feel that that relationship which was dormant is now dead.
Similarly, I had a close friend of some 18 years with whom I've shared the ups and downs of life. The kind of guy I would speak to several times a weeks. Our friendship is much less engaged now. I attribute that to discomfort over the issue of Israel.
In general, managing what to say and what not to say among Jews is a constant negotiation.
Seems to me that gays who "come out" can leave their family and join a gay community. Their parents may turn out not be homophobes after all. I don't see Harvey Milk's strategy working for Jewish anti-Zionists. Jews who come out as anti-Zionist do not have a Jewish community of fellow anti-Zionists that they can join. Moreover the general American community is either indifferent or just as Zionist as the Jews.
I think that's true. In my experience, Israelis have a strong "us vs. them" mentality. If you are not with us, then you are with them. I've seen this repeatedly. An Israeli starts talking to a stranger. At some point, the Israeli realizes that the other guy is actually Israeli/Jewish/has family in Israel or whatever other marker makes the other guy safe. The Israeli's whole bearing changes to acceptance and, worse, approval.
I love Israel with everything I have, and because I love Israel, I can’t not notice that the range is getting smaller. That when American teen tours go, they don’t go to the souk as much. They’re not free to wander the Arab quarter. Many of them don’t go to Bethlehem anymore.
Ilyse Hogue is showing how long she has has been away from Israel. Bethlehem?! Israelis - and certainly American Jewish tourists - stopped going to Bethlehem (and other areas) over 20 years ago.
Isn't it odd, how, out there, in the real world, J Street is so edgy and current?
Donald, thank you for this. Unfortunately, the point still needs to be made that Israel is not unique. The attitude that it is, is in itself, part of the problem.
Yesterday, I had a conversation with a young Jewish woman who is offended that the State of Israel does not recognize her Jewishness (her mom wasn't Jewish). Her dad's family is Jewish, White African going back to the 19th century. She is generally forward-looking, but not on I/P. She suggested that the Palestinians should move to one of the Arab countries and that the Arab countries should welcome the Palestinians "as brothers."
Kinda surprised me. I thought that, nowadays, this argument was only held by ideological neanderthals of a certain age.
I countered by asking her if Native Americans in the U.S. wouldn't feel more comfortable just relocating to live with other Native American tribes in Central American countries.
Seemed like a logical comparison to me but she just looked blankly at me.
Gaza has problems with electricity. And as we can see it’s also a well lit strip of light right alone the coast.
Sorry to point out the obvious contradiction.
Which is it:
Dark, because of problems with electricity
or
bright, as in "a well lit strip of light"?
Hasbara 101 - use just one contradictory argument at a time.
Save the other one for a later post.
Oleg, you're getting desperate.
My bet is that every US city is well-lit,as, is, it appears every Israeli city.
But Nablus and Hebron and other Palestinian cities are not.
Oleg -
As you correctly point out, Greater Jerusalem takes a well-lit bite out of the West Bank.
Otherwise, you're looking at this starkly contrasted picture through shades of grey.
Gush Dan (on the left) and the whole coastal plain is lit up, framing the darkened West Bank on the right
Great pic.
Won't convince anybody though. Somebody else might see something else in it. It just shows how the Palestinians don't care about bettering themselves, while Israelis have developed a thriving economy.
And did we mention Tel Aviv nightlife.
Sigh.
On the Jew marrying Jew piece, my main beef is that endogamy stands - or rather, stood - for all Judaism. Would Miller's grandfather have flung his clock (a grandfather clock?) at his mother for any other Jewish reason? I doubt it.
But I am talking about the role Miller sought in American life: of artistically/spiritually mediating between Americans, seeking to resolve cultural problems. I don't think you can aspire to such a role and meanwhile be telling your children to marry inside the tribe.
That's a grand statement and I don't think that is factually true, or that this is even prescriptively desirable. I agree that if intermarriage is the last and only thing you care deeply about as a Jew, then it's a lost cause and a sad situation.
I'd be interested to see numbers and analysis. One detail that supports the England vs. America distinction on race and class is speech, in particular dialect and accent.
For instance, if you are listening to the radio in the U.S., you can typically tell right away if the speaker is Black or White. In distinction to this, in the UK, Blacks (and other minorities) have the same regional accents their White neighbors have.
I think you are right that "class" is off-limits in America, while "race" is not. Perhaps the reason is that skin color is an undeniable reality, while we like to think that all Americans were created equal with somewhat equal bank accounts. This feeds into and off the dogma that one's economic well-being is an outcome of one's own efforts, and not the result of pure luck in a racially skewed system.
Perhaps there is also a comfort factor here. For all its problems, the US has had experience handling race. Ideologically, the US can countenance race issues. On the other side, because of its economic ideology, the US still cannot get a handle on class inequities.
For instance, the epidemic of racism in certain European countries such as Holland comes from not having had any prior experience handling people of different skin color and ethnic origin. The US (and other "new" countries) has more experience. This means more successes and more failures, but it also means that you better know what to expect than parts of Europe which are new to this game.
Race is, first of all, a much more debated topic than in Europe. Here we may talk loosely about cultures or religions, almost always implictly talking about Islam, but not so much about race in of itself.
Do you notice differences based on particular countries? In particular, with regard to Germany, now that Germany has recognized ethnic Turks as German citizens, has that translated into social relationships?
I am grateful for Phil Weiss for educating me about this HBO series. I had never heard of "Girls" until reading this piece. I'm with you Dan (and Danaa) about avoiding this kind of stuff.
Dan, I disagree with you on your characterization of the gay issue. Gay couples in states where gay marriage is not recognized suffer from economic and other hardships. Any positive changes in this regard are quite recent. This means that almost all gays in the U.S. have suffered economically for being gay.
-Now that the gay issue is mainstream, the powerful elites can embrace it with no fear.
-It surprises me how many gays don't get the issue of Palestinian oppression. I guess it's like another former outsider group - the Jews - not getting it either.
This is not a case of Catholics and Jews doing common cause on behalf of worker justice. The "end of days" is a key theological issue for Jews and Christians, and a divisive one.
I wonder how Christian Zionists explain away the atheism of their Jewish partners, but that is not my problem.
Under the guise of Christian-Jewish healing, a different agenda is being advanced. Just one of the damaging aspects of this collaboration is that the cause of Palestinian Christians is being sacrificed in order to achieve American Christian-Jewish unity around the unholy dyad of anti-Semitism/Zionism.
See the concerted Jewish-Christian attack on Kairos and Palestinian Christian unity.
I've heard one version or another of this wisecrack too many times to remember:
Q. How can liberal Jews collaborate with fundamentalist Christians, who pretend to love us but are really plotting to see us killed as part of their Messianic plan?
A. When the Messiah comes, we'll ask him: is this your first time or your second?
For most Jews the Messiah is just a figure of speech. But they are happy to pal around with those Christians who do take Him very seriously if this collaboration translates into Christian dollars and Christian political muscle for Israel.
I find this pretense to be distasteful and disingenuous. It's disrespectful towards people who have honest beliefs that we do not share. It's also a dangerous game which more Jews than should shrug off with a wink and a nod.
Me too. You can't imagine... :)
American -
Didn't mean to put you on the defensive. If it's any comfort, I did not suspect that you came to I/P out of some pre-existing interest in things Jewish.
I second Taxi and would be interested to read your story.
Thanks, Taxi. That was vivid and interesting. :)
Sounds like an idyllic way to live and quite the adventure.
I'd be interested to hear more about your take on Lebanon. For instance, are you in a Muslim, Maronite or Druze area? What's Beirut like?
American - I guess I'm honored that you included me in your rant, but the declaration of faith in a Jewish state that you attribute to me, was actually given by Sean.
Since you mentioned me, allow me to share that I actually do not support a Jewish state. I think such a state cannot succeed in becoming what you term a "light unto the nations"
I’ve been wondering, is there such a person as an anti-Gentile?
"Gentile" itself is anti-Gentile. It has been argued that "gentile" is the only instance in history in which a tiny minority gave a label to the majority - and the majority adopted that label as its own. The legacy of the Israelites vs. goyim of the Bible filtered through Latin is very much alive today.
My suggestion: ban the Bible as hate literature directed at Gentiles.
Regarding your legitimate questions, seems to me that as long as Jews are not ready to critically examine Jewish power, non-Jews will be labeled as anti-Semites for doing so. It's totally messed up.
Sean -
On a friendly note, I'm always curious what draws an American Christian with a commitment to human rights, but with no obvious ties to this issue, to focus on I/P.
I am familiar, in general, with the arguments focussing on I/P as a key American issue. I'm interested in the personal story.
(In case anyone is interested, my story is that I'm a Jew who through the Zionism of my parents became a Zionist - now ex-Zionist - and an Israeli.)
Sean - I'm not sure what I have done to incur your disapproval. You seem to have a recurring interest in anti-Semitism which I do not share.
Regardless, yes, I agree with you that Jews must always ask themselves what they have done to bring on anti-Semitism. Hannah Arendt said it best. It's at the very least a healthy way of getting out of the corrosive mindest of the pepetual victim.
And, if you want to draw up a list of nasty, powerful Jews, knock yourself out. When I have some free time, I might contribute some names to your list.
I know that …
- We Germans like to see the German Jews as ‘our’ Jews. – whereas
- The Israelis/Zionists like to see them as ‘their’ Jews.
I grew up in Israel, where, as you can imagine, Zionist history is taught. I never received the impression that pre-war German Jews were Zionists or proto-Israelis. On the contrary, German Jews were presented as a cautionary tale of a Jewish community that tried very hard to assimilate. I learned that, despite all their love of Goethe and Wagner, and intermarrying and the rest of it, the Nazis weren't fooled. Because a Jew is a Jew is a Jew.
It is fair to say that Germany represented a general case. Germany, per Israeli schools, teaches that even the most assimilated and cultured Jews could not escape their Jewishness. And so, the only solution for Jews is to accept their Jewishness, accept that the world will ultimately reject them and accept their fate as a nation apart whose home is in Zion.
We seem, for example – for an important example, to have a phenomenon of greater influence for religious groups without any real rise in religious beliefs.
That's interesting. My sense, here in the U.S. is that there is declining religiosity (mainstream and even Evangelical Christian as well as Jews), yet the power of religion is undiminished.
Several people have blamed Jewish ethno-centrism on Zionism. I'm sure it had an impact but is far from being the onlyfactor.
You mention other groups that have a stronger sense of ethnic identity now than was common in the 50s. Today, it is often the case that native born Americans identify ethnically to a greater degree than their immigrant parents and grandparents did 60 years ago. Seems to be a global, American trend.
Just like in late 19th century Europe, Jews, yet again, assmilate along with everybody else into ethnic groups.
How is Zionism to blame for this American trend?
@ American: The contemporary comparison of pre-war U.S. to Germany is a fair point.
@Klaus
I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about my university studies with a professor who was a student of Mosse's.
Regarding your opinion of German education, I don't know what level you studied this material and I have no knowledge to agree or disagree with your judgement of German educational biases.
I would like to see a poll asking todays Germans ‘Do you want the pre-WW II Jews back?’ – My guess is, a majority will say ‘yes’ because we all learned in school that ‘our’ Jews were so good. (What will the Poles say to the same question?)
The posthumous love that certain European countries bestow on their lost Jews is legend. Poland has been in love with its dead Jews for years. Look at the Krakow klezmer fest, for which they have to fly in live Jews. Last time I was in Berlin, klezmer was pretty hot there too, with or without Jews.
Citizen - Yes. I think that saying originated in the late 18th century with the first modern Jew. Moses Mendelssohn, was very Jewish, but outwardly assimilated.
@ Citizen, If POTUS, or anybody else, tried to say something like that, there would be hell to pay. Until then, nothing changes the sense of perfect compatability most American Jews feel between their Americaness and Zionism.
@ American - you can call that sensibility naive, or whatever you choose to call is, but it's real. I don't see this POTUS or the next one challenging that.
The fact that you can conceive of a future breaking point between the American and Zionist sensibilities is irrelevant. The two beliefs are ideologically consonant for most Jews and many Christians and remain unchallenged in the political class. That's our reality.
Sure, mommy and daddy can get divorced. Until they do, American Jews love them both, equally, with no internal contradiction.
Thanks, Klaus.
That's interesting. I had remembered from my studies of German history (in Israel) that the numbers of intermarriage between Jewish and Christian Germans were typically lower - certainly lower than the post-1928 spike.
Even so, the post-1928 numbers are substantially lower than rates of intermarriage today. This also does not address the identity of the majority of Jews, including the highly secularized and culturally assimilated, who held on to the Jewish ban against intermarriage, even into the 20th century.
The preceding conversation was about whether Jews in per-war Germany were a separate group or were they German citizens who happened to practice the Jewish religion. The terminology you use supports the first definition and the one I was arguing for. Was that yours or Barkai's ("Germans" meaning Christian German nationals, and "Jews" meaning German nationals who are Jewish by religion)?
Would you post a source?
American -
I don't see American Jewish Zionists as not identifying strongly with the U.S. They do identify strongly with Israel AND with the U.S. They do not see any tension between the two and are not confused by the duality. You can love mommy and daddy equally.
From the other side, would you not agree that Christian America accepts American Jews as equally American to a degree that substantially exceeds the perceptions of German-Jews by German-Christians in pre-war Germany?