Total number of comments: 10 (since 2009-10-22 10:57:12)
yoram
I am a former American. In my youth I belinged to Hashomier HaTzair and attended a Yesheva I made Aliyah from from Colorado and have been living on a moshav in Israel for the past 22 years.
Website: http://www.IsraelSeen.com
OK Shmuel, I read your blog page...I even tried to read Israel Yuval...but all I got was a condensed description of his intentions.
NOW you give me Haber, who I am not sure who he is, or where or why I can find him.
Again the issue is not hegemony or discrimination, its one of sharing and honoring and respecting each other other.
Shmuel, as you quote, "... just because it is in your head doesn’t mean that it is not real."
Is that to say, that just because I and many others, Jews & non-Jews believe that the Romans exiled the Jewish people, does not mean that our belief is not true, ie, that the Jews were in fact exiled from Judea
A restful and refreshing Shabbat to you all
I appreciate that for Mr. Hilton Obenzinger involvement with the native American community was cause for an awakening experience. I too was privileged to live with an intertribal band of young native Americans in the wilderness of California and was truly inspired to return to my tribes ancient land.
So I can not help but wonder what would his reaction be if, against all odds, those same native Americans were to organize themselves sufficiently so as to be able to challenge the people who had assumed control of their tribal lands?
I know it’s a stretch, Mr. Obenzinger, but the same violent and cruel Europeans who exiled the Jewish people from their ancestral lands thousands of years ago, also exiled the “natives” of the Americas from their land. Is that the similarity you realized between “them” and “us”? For some reason I doubt it.
When you speak of Israel’s colonization, I wonder, which is the home country which sends the Jewish colonists there, to the eastern end of the Mediterranean? In traditional, classical colonial script, those colonists then strip the colony of its natural resources which are returned to the mother country from which the colonists were sent, no? Can you name the mother nation from which the Jewish colonists were sent and to whom those same colonists return the plundered wealth. And could you be so kind as to tell us what wealth did these colonists come to plunder. Could it be the immense riches held within its earth, of oil and diamonds or maybe even coal? Or is it the exploitation of the vast lands of rich fertility, well watered soil, bursting with produce? (In Roman times it was indeed considered one of the bread baskets of the empire)
You did not know that there was such a thing as Palestine? How ironic. Up until 1948 the people who answered proudly to the designation Palestinian were the Jews who came to rebuild and reclaim their ancient homeland.
The name Palestine is in itself an interesting historical anomaly. I think that it is the usual SOP for people to name their nation according to their language in a way that represents and reflects who they believe themselves to be. It is not by chance that the very people who claim to be “Palestinians” can not even pronounce the name of their nation properly. Perhaps that is because the name has nothing to do with them. In historical fact the Philistines, who conquered the coastal plain came from the Greek islands and are known historically mostly in their relation to the Hebrew tribes with whom they competed and fought. The story of David and Goliath is their star appearance in history along with the chapters of Samson and Delilah. I recently learned that they too were exiled to Babylon at the same time as the Hebrew tribes. Seventy years later the Jews returned but the Philistines had assimilated and disappeared. So that by the time the land was given their name by the Roman emperor Hadrian, they had already ceased to exist five hundred years before.
You wondered why the Arabs “wanted to push the Jews into the sea”? The simple answer has to do with the inability and/or unwillingness to share. We all have only this one small planet to live on. Much of it is water; some of it is desert, or high uninhabitable mountains. On the little that is left we must make room for everybody. For us, Jew and Arab, Israeli and Palestinian to be able to live here together, to prosper and contribute our individual creative talents to the welfare of all mankind it is necessary for the Arab / Muslim world to recognize the legitimate historical claim of the Jewish people to any of the land between the river and the sea. That is the entire issue, all the rest is distraction, reaction, smoke and mirrors.
I used to think that for the Arab, Muslim people of the land of Israel it was particularly difficult to accept the prior claim of another people and consent to sharing their land. But I now understand that this challenge would be difficult for any people.
And this Mr. Obenzinger is the essence of the conflict.
Can you imagine Sioux people; still practicing their ancient nature based spiritual traditions, speaking their own unique language, requesting of the non-Sioux occupants of Nebraska for a degree of independent sovereignty over one or two counties of the state? Or of the state where you live, would you be sympathetic to returning native Americans? Would your neighbors? Would you understand their claim? Would you be willing to share your home?
I can understand the difficulty of the decedents of the people who came out of Arabia, conquered and occupied an empire, then a few hundred years later found it difficult to relate to the claims of a returning people to what had been their ancestral homeland. Nothing had prepared them for this possibility. At least in America, as I remember it, we were taught that there were a people living on the land when we Europeans crossed the sea and discovered a whole New World. There is enough historical consciousness in America of a past before most “Americans” came to conquer the land and made it theirs.
I can also understand how difficult it is to grasp the fact that a conquered and exiled native people could return and reclaim possession of the lands from which they were exiled. After all it is an extraordinary event in the story of human existence.
I know of only one other example in modern history (you may know of others). In the 18th century after “discovering” the Pacific island known as Saipan, the Spanish exiled its native inhabitants known as Chamorros to the island of Guam to work the sugar plantations. Another island people, the Carolinians found the empty island to their liking and moved in. Some time later when the Spanish closed the sugar plantations, and the Chamorros returned to their homeland, they found the Carolininans happily living on their island, in their homes.
Perhaps there is something cyclical to this process as we know that the Judeans (ancestors of the Jews) who were exiled to Babylonia, in the 5th cent BC returned to their ancestral homes to find another people, who were to be known as Samarians (of Good Samarian fame) comfortably living in what had been their land before the forced exile. And now once again we have a returned, a people native to the land, once again confronted by those who moved in during our absence.
Yoram Getzler
IsraelSeen.com
Moshav Aminadav, Jerusalem
jan_gdyn, it seems our white/brown Mr. Chasdai is not the most intelligent sensitive PC person in the neighborhood. I suspect there are people like him in every nook and cranny of human habitat / occupation.
One answer to your question "What was the increase in water use by Israelis in the West Bank from the period 1967-2006?"
For Israel in fact conveys more water from inside the pre-1967 borders into the West Bank (nearly 56 million cu.m.) than the total consumption of the entire Jewish population in the settlements across the Green Line ( just over 48 million cu.m.).
That is not counting the water going to Gaza, which is almost totally dependent on Israel for water.
Arafat & Co. encouraged the women of Gaza and all Palestinian woman to use their secret weapon, their wombs to defeat the Jews.
Only he forgot or did not care about how all those Palestinians would be feed or have enough water. He left that to Israel to supply. And we do it!
Israel supplies almost all the water to the people of Gaza. Who else would do it? Egypt?
As to my personal contribution to the demographic challange, my wife and I have nine children, and twelve grand children. We continue to do our best.
I am NOT implying that Jews are "white", I was responding to the statement of Anees of Jerusalem, who raised the issue of "white mans trauma" about a Mr. Chasdai. I live with too many Yemenite and Kurdish Jews to think that way. My wife and I are the only "white"/Euorpean Jews in our community.
Sometimes I actually think they are proud that they have us. We are their Jacki Robinsons.
Yoram
Arafat & Co. talked alot about the wh
Another assumption without any real knowledge or fact to back it up.
Hasdai sounds more like a Mizrachi (Brown/Arab Jewish) name than that of a "White" man.
Tho I suppose it makes no difference, as you seem to find fault with them (us) all.
It may be of interest for you and your readers to know that in the period 1967-2006 the overall annual consumption of the Palestinians in the West Bank grew by 300 percent - from 60 million cubic meters to 180 million cu.m. and that from 1967 to the years preceding Oslo, the Palestinian household consumption of water rose dramatically under Israeli rule - by almost 600%,
Yoram
What grown on a tree, at least on this site, seems to be just plain ignorance…the statement that Israel has ” has been a disaster for all concerned” could only be explained by willful ignorance combined with a strong dose of generic and very PC anti-Zionism.
The Arab, Druze, Bedouin and Ba'hai citizens of Israel, Muslim & Christian alike have the highest life expectancy of any Arabs in the Middle East, that’s how bad its been for them. But the real lives of Arabs may not concern you, so long as you can dump on Israel.
I am sure you are not impressed, but the flowering of Hebrew culture, which along with Chinese is one of the oldest expressions of human creativity, here has been remarkable and unequaled anywhere in the Diaspora.
Our contributions to humanity, include advances in Desert Agriculture being used all over the world where they benefit many people. And this should especially interest you, tree >Forestry; did you know that Israel is the only country in the world in which there were more trees at the end of the 20th century than at the beginning? The list of contributions is just too extensive to add here. If you know about science this is all in no small part due to the synergy of the collection of people who choose to live and work here from all over the world. The Russian with the Ethiopians, the Americans and Moroccans with Iranians.
As for “our” Arabs, their literacy rate is often in three languages, Arabic, Hebrew & English. They, like all other Israeli citizens are covered by our universal medical insurance system including admit ion to our fine hospitals. Where they also serve as physicians including in Afula Hospital the head of the Emergency Room, and heads of other department in the Jerusalem Hadassah Hospital.
During the period when Israel controlled the Gaza strip my friend Dr. Eli Lash was Chief Medical officer for the strip for twenty years, lowered the infant mortality rate by one third.
The Arabs in the West Bank enjoy one of the highest rates of availability electricity and clean running water of Arabs anywhere in the Middle East. BTW This was hardly the situation when Israel took control.
Arab Israelis are take advantage of eligibility to enter and graduate from our universities. They have more freedom of expression than anywhere else in the Arab world, as well as the freedom to read, write and publish what ever they want.
…and Shingo I was not challenging you to live in the ancient Muslim world, not even the one of 70 years ago, when the Middle Ease was again a rich cosmopolitan area of the world. But NOW, which is what I thought we were discussing. We all know that a thousand years ago a person who did not read and speak Arabic was ignorant of the culture of the world. Even you must know, having nothing to do with Israel or Jews, that things have changed. There is not even much tolerance for different ideas about Islam much less tolerance for other religions. In Saudi Arabia if no one is looking, they still behead people who preach Christianity.
For the record the only successful ethnic cleansing in this area was by the local Arabs in 1929, and again in 1948. You know, while tens of thousands of Arabs remained in the areas conquered by the Israeli army, in 1948 not one, ONE Jew remained in those conquered by the Arab armies.
All you need to do is travel the Jordan Valley and look (to the east) across into Jordan and see the replication of Israeli farming methods to know the blessing we have been.
And these is a reason that any Arab who can make the connections prefer treatment in Israeli hospitals.
In a survey conducted a few years by a Ramala survey company the country most admired by West Bank Arabs was….Israel.
It is so terrible to be an Arab in Israel that most Arabs in the west bank would accept Israeli citizenship in a flash.
Several responses in one, if I may.
Mr./Ms/ ? Potsherd
1) On the subject of Christians in the ME. TRUE, Christians once constituted a large influential minority with in the Arab states. And if you remember your history, Christianity preceded Islam in the world and the Middle East by more than five hundred years. There were Christians in Arabia and Mecca before and during the life of Mohammed the Prophet. As a matter of fact it was the Christian community that first raised the flag of Arab independence from Turkish Ottoman rule. It was called the Arab Awakening.
But all that was before the intense influence of Arab nationalism in the 50’s & 60’s. Now after the further narrowing of consciousness here, exemplified by the various Islamic movements the Christian segment of the population has been severely reduced. With the exception of Israel, all the Middle-Eastern states have significantly smaller Christian populations than in the past.
What your thoughts really expose is another fundamental reason for the rejection by the Jewish and Israeli people of a “one-state-solution” .
The simple history of minorities in the Arab Muslim world has been a disaster for all concerned, including the Muslims, for the past half century. By minorities I include; Christians, Jews, Bah’ is, Zoroastrians, Druze, and others.
Your second posting:
Of course the best remedy for eliminating the problems of life, for the individual or nation, is to quit!
It is interesting that it is the Jews you volunteer to relive of the burden of complex existence. What could be so wonderful about adding a twenty first Arab, Muslim majority state to the community of nations? What exactly is the nature of their contribution to the pressing issues facing the community of living beings on this planet at this time; that you would sacrifice a unique community that has contributed so much to human welfare in the past sixty years?
Wandering Jew:
YES it has to do with “Hatikva” (the hope) as well as a unique stew of religion/spirituality/ethnicity/nationality/cultural uniqueness AND tikva, (hope) for the opportunity to contribute to better world for all living beings.
And we have the receipts for some great successes in that endeavor.
Yoram
Moshav Aminadav
Jerusalem
ON THE ONE STATE SOLUTION
“the challenge remains to make the case to Israeli Jews what they have to gain from a just and equitable society”
OK which Arab Muslim society would use as an example of Arabs or Muslims having created “just and equitable” society for Israeli Jews (or others ) to reassure them of the possibility?
Do I need to delineate the candidates?
Egypt, ask the Christian Copts and the Jews that are already all long gone.
Syria? Ask the Christians and Druze, or what’s left of the Muslim Kurds.
Saudi Arabia, just ask their Arab Muslim women and Christian Philippine workers.
Or you could try Sudan.
The Palestinians are different you say?
How’s about the living example of the Gaza (Palestinian) for non Hamas Arab Muslims or the Christians or even the Jews who were cleansed in 1929, as were the Jews from the Palestinian cities of Hebron and Nablus, also in 1929. And they did not have a gun between all the Jews in the four cities.
If you think there is something to gain from living in a “just and equitable” Arab Muslim society, why do you not try it yourself.
CAUSION your wife or daughters might not want to join you. But if they do join you, rest assured they will be faithful.
Yoram
I know that the Goldstone report has assumed the status of holy script; evidentialy it satisfies some people’s needs to believe the worst about Israel. It is hard to tell if this satisfaction is an intellectual need or a sensual one. Reading the emotional responses it sounds like people are really enjoying/pleasureing themselves.
True the “investigation” was successful in fulfilling its predetermined mandate; to investigate war crimes by Israel. That was what they were charged to do, and they did it! What they were not asked to do was to determine the truth of claims by Israel of the use of human shields by Hamas. Therefore there are several glaring failures in its investigation
In response to the report itself I will try to be brief and to the point:
Judge Goldstone’s commission of investigation states:
"The [UN] Mission is unable to form an opinion on the exact nature or the intensity of their [Hamas's] combat activities in urban residential areas that would have placed the civilian population and civilian objects at risk of attack.”
We must ask what kind of investigation the distinguished judge and his staff perused.
Plain as day, in black & white the official Palestinian newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, on Jan. 27, 2009 tells us the following story:
"The Abd Rabbo family kept quiet while Hamas fighters turned their farm in the Gaza strip into a fortress. Right now they are waiting for the aid promised by the [Hamas] movement after Israel bombed the farm and turned it into ruins...
The hill on which the Abd Rabbo family lives overlooks the Israeli town of Sderot
which turned it into an ideal military position for the Palestinian fighters, from
which they have launched hundreds of rockets into southern Israel during the last
few years. Several of the Abd Rabbo family members described how the fighters dug tunnels under their houses, stored arms in the fields and launched rockets from the yard of their farm during the nights.
The Abd Rabbo family members emphasize that they are not [Hamas] activists and that they are still loyal to the Fatah movement, but that they were unable to prevent the armed squads from entering their neighborhood at night. One family member, Hadi (age 22) said: 'You can't say anything to the resistance [Hamas], or they will accuse you of collaborating [with Israel] and shoot you in the legs.'"
True Judge Goldstone, it’s hard from this description to "form an opinion on the EXACT intensity of placing civilians at risk of attack” but surely even you could understand that an inexact statement of the fact substantiated by Al-Hayat Al-Jadida that some civilians were being placed in danger even if not in an urban environment would have been appropriate in any search for objective truth. But here too, that was not the charge of your assignment by the URC.
Then there’s the use of women, children and other civilians by Hamas as human shields
In their own words, which Judge Goldstone also did not manage to find
The following is the full text of the comments by Hamas representative Fathi Hamad months before the war, articulating the Hamas ideology to use civilians as human shields for Hamas fighters:
"For the Palestinian people death has become an industry, at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the Jihad fighters excel, and
the children excel. Accordingly [Palestinians] created a human shield of women,
children, the elderly and the Jihad fighters against the Zionist bombing machine,
as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death as you desire life.'"
[Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas) Feb. 29, 2008]
Is there any reason to doubt this Hamas description of their military doctrine? Is there any honest investigation that would not take that statement into account when judging the actions by those who these who “desire death” are confronted by those who “desire life”?
Even an Iranian newspaper complained about the use of Mosques and hospitals for military purposes.
There are far more inconsistencies in the report than I think this site would be willing to post.
Yoram