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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
A. The flotilla was basically intended to breach the blockade or siege.
Huwaida Arraf, one of the flotilla organizers, said the six-ship flotilla began the journey from international waters off the coast of Cyprus Sunday afternoon after two days of delays. According to organizers, the flotilla was expected to reach Gaza, about 250 miles (400 kilometers) away, on Monday afternoon, and two more ships would follow in a second wave.
The flotilla was fully prepared for the different scenarios that might arise, and organizers were hopeful that Israeli authorities would do what's right and not stop the convoy, one of the organizers said.
"We fully intend to go to Gaza regardless of any intimidation or threats of violence against us," Arraf said. "They are going to have to forcefully stop us."
(see By Anshel Pfeffer, Avi Issacharoff and The Associated Press. Report: Gaza aid flotilla changes course to avoid confrontation with Israeli warships. 31.05.10)
This is the ninth time that the Free Gaza movement has tried to ship in humanitarian aid to Gaza since August 2008.
(see Israel: Gaza aid convoy can unload cargo in Ashdod for inspection link to haaretz.com
It is not a question of materials...
It is a question of law... the legal compliance and respect of national integrity of an independent state....
[If an armed group of Somali pirates had yesterday boarded six vessels on the high seas, killing at least 10 passengers and injuring many more, a Nato taskforce would today be heading for the Somali coast.]
The Israelis have made many dipomatic caution and press releases worldwide to countries (like Turkey) with citizens involved in the flotilla adventure... the Somali pirates never did this before thy attack ships...
[Afterwards, we should tell them “we deeply regret any innocent loss of life.”]
Yes, but I do hope those who died are found indeed innocent after the appropriate and just investigations... I saw the actions on board on youTube
(see link to youtube.com
I too felt sad for the loss of lives... what a loss...
[You have no business on this blog. No one wants you here and no one is remotely interested in your mindless dribble. ]
Yes, today I will celebrate in silence... in sorrow, and in sympathy for those who have lost their lives...
I too were not happy of the deaths of the persons killed… But this is the tragedy we have been argueing against the flotilla plan. There would be widespread shock outburst among the people, but hope emotions will subside after any investigation are completed.
If we seek for truth and justice, we must see the situation with even mindedness. If the people who attacked the IDF soldiers who boarded the ship where Israeli citizens, the charges could have many counts: a) rebellion, b) grave assault, c) resisting authority, and, d) some violent acts may qualify to premeditated assault or murder (seeing the activists have attacked the with bars instantaneously right after they the IDF touched down the deck), etc. I am not sure about automatic weapons, but what I saw it was the activists made the ‘first assault’ against the opposing party (the IDF).
(see link to youtube.com
But because the attackers (activists ) may have involved other nationalities, the issue is truly a violent provocation by a citizens of foreign country. Worst the assault is against government forces. With impulsive reactions this is goings seriously closer at the verge of war… The most possible scenario is international mediation…The fact the intent or motive of attack involved a party of belligerence, the next issues could be whether Israel implemented the international conventions on rules of engagements…
[Israel is now all but officially isolated. ]
Or this incident further reinforces and reaffirms the integrity of Israel as an independent state...
[You and the rest of the freaks are only winning because you have money, guns and PR. ]
How about rationality based on institutionalized norms?
[Fuck you zamaaz. You’re not human rights advocate and you don’t believe in the rule of law.]
No law prescribes the violation of itself... and true rights is absolute; whether they are humans, men, or nations ... the pursuit of 'human rights' in violation of law is not a right itself...
[If people knew that the ships are bringing food, toys, essentials for a starving population then suddenly no one gives a shit about this bureaucratic smokescreen.]
The supplies can be delivered in many ways...
As I have 'suggested' before, in the world of laws among men and nations, it is not the question of supplies but the exercise under the regime of the law...
[We all knew it would do it.]
and it is their legal right to do it...
The implementation law is even equally tragic... even the Islamic countries practice executions under the due process of law...
According to some Haaretz news, the Israelis has been shadowing the flotilla at 70 miles, waiting until they cross through the territorial 68 miles from the baseline...
There are baselines on the sea allowed by international law... (if remember it right) there is even an archepelagic law that extended up to 200 miles from the baseline...
The Israelis has given forewarnings... this is in accordance to the Hague protocols...
[When has the world of rational men become reversed?] Or perhaps the world of militant activism is on the 'isomeric parallel' world...
I am really sad for the affected people...
[This kind of repugnant filth has no right to be here. ]
Is upholding the national integrity of state of Israel, and invoke what is supposedly legal, a repugnant filthy thing? When has the world of rational men become reversed?
If Phil bans me, I recognize his right... as I respect anyone's action to do within his right... As all do is express sincerely my conscience regarding these Israel issues.
Will Phil ban me because I oppose your contentions in whatever ground or circumstance I see irrationality? When I joined this debate, I am aware this as a War of Ideas In The Middle East. If there ware no protagonists, then it is no war anymore…
He can review all my contributions and determine if I am truly worthy to be banned....
Will justice makes difference between Nobel Prize winner, and those not? The Christian world does not agree on that;
[But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. (James 3:17)]
If they violated the law, they go to jail as well….
As a say again, 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating'...we will see if the Israelis cannot capture the maritime violators... If they are captured, you lose... the violators suffer... if not, you win.... nobody suffers...as for me in both consequences, I have nothing to lose...
Please read international maritime laws (on territorial and passage matters) and on the Hague conventions on conduct of War.
No! There is the time for such catastrophe as written in the Book of Revelations... as I said before, 'what is important in the pudding is in the eating'... As you mocked these writings it is up to you, its your choice... but if these were true and realized, then your joy of sneering can never compensate the ‘heat of fire and brimstones promised for mockers and unbelievers’... As for me, I have nothing to lose in believing... in as much as what is important for now is the legal rights of the state of Israel...
[zamaaz you advocate genocide against the indigenous Palestinian Arabs and eventually Jews who do not convert to Christianity.]
Inasmuch as these are illegally brought goods, the government has the right to confiscate it... And as I proposed before, it is for the Israeli government to bring the goods themselves to intended people... this is the legal avenue to do things appropriately...
I do not have the power to convert Jews into Christians, only God has the grace to do that…I only press for what is right among individuals, people, nations, etc. in accordance to the law;
I too is concerned with Palestinians for they are the ones suffering the intransigience of others who could be personally benefiting from this huge international drama…
[Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings]
If these activist are truly for mercies, they shall give it to both the rights of Palestinians and Israelis. The Palestinians may need supplies, the Israelis need obedience to their laws…
[And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. (1Samuel 15:22)]
These are quoted from ancient Jewish scriptures… Now that you have touched spiritual matters, I included these for you.
What is legally punitive here is the 'criminal sanctions' against those who intentionally challenged the national integrity of state of Israel...
[The flotilla, which includes three cargo ships and three passenger ships, is trying to draw attention to Israel's three-year blockade of the Gaza Strip. The boats are carrying items that Israel bars from reaching Gaza, like cement and other building materials. (Report: Gaza aid flotilla changes course to avoid confrontation with Israeli warships. Haaretz.com)]
It is not the question of bringing in civilian materials... It s question of law, and national integrity being challenged here..
[The flotilla was fully prepared for the different scenarios that might arise, and organizers were hopeful that Israeli authorities would do what's right and not stop the convoy, one of the organizers said.
"We fully intend to go to Gaza regardless of any intimidation or threats of violence against us," Arraf said. "They are going to have to forcefully stop us."
(Report: Gaza aid flotilla changes course to avoid confrontation with Israeli warships. Haaretz.com)]
This is pure intentional premeditated transgression. When ‘what is right’ is about to violate one’s national integrity… the world 'came' into the state of isomerism… a mirror image... Then arrest becomes a wrong act… This illusionary symptom of insanity cannot be used as ground for exoneration based on partial insanity… The nature of territorial violation remains in effect…
[Yes I saw this article yesterday and am disgusted. Israel is going from manic to truly psychotic.]
Better 'psychotic' than totally obliterated...
[A blatant act of piracy.]
Pirates are sea outlaws, they have no legal authority, jurisdiction, nor personality over certain area of the sea...
[From a friend of the flotilla: I was just told by Audrey, a spokesperson, that Israel told the captain that they're expanding Israel's territorial waters to 68 miles. The boats are at 70 right now with helicopters flying around. I think it's going to be very difficult to get timely and accurate news at this point. Hope I'm wrong.]
[From Felice: The White House is directing callers to contact the State Department main switchboard and ask for the duty officer responsible for dealing with imminent threats of abduction of American citizens. Please call the State Department as well. 202-647-4000. You can remind them that American citizens are being attacked with American military aid given to Israel and tell them they have ample influence with Israel to keep the flotilla safe.]
When you come into the into the territorial waters of Israel, there is no application for technicalities of “imminent threats of abduction of American citizens”, and “being attacked” (natural militant exaggeration)… the ‘right of innocent passage’ could hardly be applied (the ocean is too wide and there are navigational aids to use).
Encroaching is simply a breach of territorial integrity and laws, and liable to certain violations as provided by national and recognized international laws …
The US government may be simply facilitating safety and comfort of their citizens, but of course , on matters of legal offenses, its within the right of domain, or jurisdiction of the Israeli government.
The best way of showing 'materially clean' cargo is passing a through inspection by the Israeli government, as well as obtain custom, and maritime clearances at all, but I think that is moot and academic as the ''illegal /smuggled cargoes" will be confiscated accordingly....
[From their twisted perspective, Palestinians (on both sides of the Green Line), should not be on equal footing to any Israeli Jew at any point in time.]
In a state of perpetual conflict such as the Palestinian Arabs versus the Jews... the word 'equal footing' is not applicable... and irrelevant.
[So when did you stop beating your wife, Witty?]
Such a rebuttal in a supposedly ethical debate... how can one gain sympathy for his arguments with such a character?
[thanks to Nakba celebration, I could have not understood the roots of Palestinian refugee issues]
I also thanks to all the commentators here in Mondoweiss... from their opposing responses I learned a lot on the rationales and arguments pros- and-cons in the Palestinians issue...
After learning all about the Nakba history, (thanks to Nakba celebration, I could have not understood the roots of Palestinian refugee issues) I do not agree on two-state solution anymore.... The Nakba historians showed Israel has no primordial culpability over the fate of the Palestinians...it was on their Arab leadership own ... So the Palestinian issue is solely concerns of Arab leadership and positive initiatives...
[Your sad little bible is nothing bit a work of fiction and you and your genocidal fantasies have no business being here.]
Are you sure I am the relatively isolated one? or it could be you? Look at the real world around you...
[There is no ancient history or archeology that pertains to Israel.]
I think this delusionary rejectionist attitude make the Palestinians cause much more difficult, and wasteful sacrifice....
No, its is not the Bible alone, but many of those relics of ancient Assyrian, Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian empires , the Jerusalem diggings etc.... in encyclopedia, in museums, history books, etc... I think we have dealt with this issue before...
What should be addressed here, to make measures work, is not only the Palestinians total welfare, but the Jews total welfare as well...
[Pinch me so I can wake up from this nightmare. Don't fall for it people. Don't let them define you as the problem, because we are not the problem. Human Rights Activists are not the problem. Don't let them turn the argument into us defending ourselves against this ridiculous aggressive victimhood strawman ad hominem argument.]
The human rights vision of Annie is ideal indeed... But as for me, she needs more contemplation of the total complex of the conflict situation... We cannot simply claim to address the problem after seeing a 'corner' of the whole problem.... The Palestinian problem, take it or leave it, requires a wholistic approach...
[The Jews existed for 2500 years without a sovereign Jewish state, and they would continue to exist if there were no longer an Israel.]
This is a view of a man that lacks reading about ancient history and archeology....
If this is the attitude of man fighting for the rights of Palestinians... theirs is a lost cause...
[(which will do wonders for my waistline )]
Rachel, do you really had that nice waistline? Wow! However, chocolates either Jewish, American, or Arab... for a girl, are surely threat to good figures...
but a thing of joy for kids... shall we teach the children to become war freak like us adults?
[But leaving a badly painted banner in a chocolate shop is pathetic; a perfect example of hit-and-run activism.]
Yes, truly Richard... in this world- no guts no glory..., but please loyal people before using your guts, use first your brains!
Perhaps this is the first time I sided with Richard Parker...Has anyone not yet seen his sensible view over the chocolate shop issue (and it repercussions to the cause of Palestine)?
If one does not... I am sorry for the suffering people....
I did not say I recommends nor prescribed this...
[You’d like that, wouldn’t you? To have an excuse to slaughter all the atheists, Arabs and Roman Catholics, huh?]
I am just showing my interest and incitement on this anti-Jew brag by somebody:
[On May 18, 2010, as a result of the campaign launched by Stop Agrexco Italy, a coalition encompassing more than 50 national and local associations, trade unions and political parties, two major Italian supermarket chains, COOP and Conad, announced the suspension of sales of products from Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories. These products are primarily marketed by the Israeli company Agrexco, which acknowledged during a court case in England in November 2006 that 70% of all agricultural products from the settlements are distributed in Europe under their brand Carmel.]
If he or she was happily proud on this, I am even more than they...
Million or so of fundamental Christians are not yet aware of this because of lack of internet access... If these come into light by the market effects of this punitive economic conditions... then as a economic researches would give us a new outlook in Belligerent Economics....
As I said (and nothing more) this is truly interesting indeed....
This could become even worst that the AIG driven global economic crisis... and this polarity when the right of Israel be made center of global attention again...The more the controversies, the more the truth prevails, and things unknown before are turned-out into light...
I am very interested on this new arena of economic warfare against Israel... I think if uncontrolled this could to extend economic and market polarization worldwide, Jews, American Evangelicals, Protestants, and Non-Roman Catholic Christians, (and others) Worldwide on one side versus atheists, anti-semitics, Arabs, Roman Catholics on the other side. This is a new global experience and new mathematical financial system... Just like going back during the medieval times (and the times of Inquisition). Very interesting indeed...
[It works for Israel so why not Gaza?]
Because Gaza is not a sovereign state... and under an unresolved state of belligerency against Israel...
[There’s no practical reason to oppose the flotilla. The last three Free Gaza convoys have been intercepted. No weapons discovered. The two incidence of violence that have occurred in that time were perpetrated by (guess who?) Israel:
• December 29 2008: “Israeli warships surrounded the Dignity, then rammed it three times without warning.”
• January 2009: “The ship was forced to turn back by the Israeli navy, which threatened to fire at the boat if it continued towards Gaza.”
link to gulfnews.com
After these events was Israel subjected to an International war under the Security Council? None...Because it has rights to defend himself in a state of belligerency... In this case the two contending factions are still in a state of war (by professed pursuit of destruction of Israel) ... until permanent peace is mutually declared...
As these past interceptions were made by Israel, by precedence it should intercept this flotilla again according to local and international laws ...
[Do you have any reason to believe that this international flotilla, carrying aid, human rights activists and members of parliament, is anything other than it claims to be?]
It is not the issue of 'carrying aid'.. this is a question of upholding the national integrity of an independent state and its right to defend herself (even its rights in a state of belligerency)...
[Fuck Israel and the US.]
A natural response of a pro-Palestinian activists...
Do we expect peace and security for Palestine?
Look at this 8 component of this fatal Palestinian Hostility cycle:
1) Israel accommodated compromise, 2) Arabs rejected all compromise…3) hostilities… 4) war ended ….5) Arabs took violent brutal resistance against Israel…6) Israel responded with brutalities… 7) Arabs took violent brutal measures against Israel … 8) UN approves Arab brutalities… 7) Arabs took violent brutal measures against Israel…6) Israel responded with brutalities… 7) Arabs took violent brutal measures against Israel … 8) UN approves Arab brutalities… 7) Arabs took violent brutal measures against … 6) Israel responded with brutalities… thus the bloody cycle…
We do not hate the UN, we are only assessing the factors why a UN agency insinuates this flotilla affair which could spark a new round of deadly conflict in Gaza or perhaps the ME region.
Can there no other measures to prevent suicide bombing to pursue other peaceful recourses?
Has UN become a snake-pit of racial violence, or anti-semitism?
As quoted in a review;
[“Palestine Betrayed” (a book by Efraim Karsh) reframes today's Arab–Israeli debate by putting it into its proper historical context. Proving that for 90 years the Palestinian political elite has opted to reject "the Jewish national revival and [insisted on] the need for its violent destruction," (Efraim) Karsh correctly concludes that the conflict will end only when the Palestinians give up on their "genocidal hopes."]
Reflecting from this historical study of Karsh, the UN took side between two conflicting without considering its historical context and thus effectively rejected its own Charter. With these present political and diplomatic symptoms the UN is dying…
Richard now I understand why the UN agencies are themselves initiating this obvious violation to the national integrity of an independent state... and participating into the violent struggle of one of the parties in belligerency :
THE DYING UN ORGANIZATION
Excerpts from UN related documents:
“Zionist apartheid, racism, and settler-colonialism in Palestine… is violative of the most basic human standards…Thus, the Palestinian resistance is justified…”
“What do you think of the suicide bombings?...First of all we don’t call it a ‘suicide attack,’ we call it a ‘martyr attack.’”
“[T]he suicide bombers…have been nurtured by the high unemployment, the harassment of the checkpoints, the death of a loved one and sometimes the need to redeem themselves from having been recruited as collaborators in the Israeli prison camps.”
[In January 2006, the NGO called BADIL, Resource Center for Palestinian Residency and Refugee Rights, won accreditation despite the fact that BADIL advocates Zionism is racism and the end of a Jewish state . But BADIL had a U.N.-insider on its side; Karen Koning AbuZayd, Commissioner General for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), wrote a letter in support of its application, stating: “I take great pleasure in recommending BADIL…BADIL has had an excellent cooperative relationship with UNRWA.”]
[The November 2005 issue of NGO Action News advertised an international seminar which included a workshop called “Boycott, Sanctions and Divestment,” and a paper on “Local and International Perspectives on a One State Solution.” The October-November 2005 NGO Action News announced a conference organized by the Palestine Center promising to discuss “Churches and Divestment: A Third Party Intervention.”]
link to article.nationalreview.com
Why has the UN take the courage to justify and thus institutionalize suicide bombing? And destruction of a internationally recognized independent State?
Can the UN violate it own Charter?
In my impression the above prints showed the fact that UN itself enjoined the violent militancy and by taking sides become part of the participant in the conflict, and effectively promotes sustained hatred against some groups such as in the Gaza violence, and nurtures this ‘pattern of antagonism’ by justifying the violent measures of the Militants…
As written in the UN Charter, the UN was created to prevent war, promote peace and goodwill among nations… The above publications showed the UN has violated itself….and its founding principles ceased to exist … Thus its present relevance is being seriously threatened …
If the UNRWA decides to sustain a culture of economic and social mendicacy among Gazans towards the UN and donor countries, its their moral choice...
After I understood that the present plight of the Palestinian refugees (Nakba) are results of many rejectionist blunders of Arab leadership in 1948 and the consecutive wars 1967, 1973, 2008, negotiations under UN Resolutions etc., and the collective rejection of the offer by former Jordanian leader to accommodate displaced Arabs... and the professed global obsession of Islamists to kill the Jews, and destroy Israel and all the western civilization... I do not believe on this two-state solution anymore...
Better leave this conflict at that…and let the militant Palestinian Hamas formally solve the Palestinian governance problems…
[We would like to reiterate the EU’s call for an immediate, sustained and unconditional opening of crossings for the flow of humanitarian aid, commercial goods and persons to and from Gaza.”]
I totally agree to this appeal, however, we also must consider the security interest of Israel which even the Hague Convention on land warfare provides... I could likewise be very productive the international community must allow Israel government to handle the appropriate manner of discharging the relief materials to the Palestinians in general...
[Turkey has based missiles on the Syrian border to defend against Israeli incursions.]
Israel basically rely on global sympathy regarding political and diplomatic issues being confronted... thus defensive stance is the best for Israel...
[Turkey has forgone military exercises with Israel,]
sometimes military exercises are show of alliance...but it does not mean Turkey would totally become strategically gullible by mere issue of religious or moral sympathies... But so far, these alliances showed Israel has no true friend but himself with the help of the Almighty to totally rely on...
And also, in our culture men only marry damsels with age more than 23... Below than that (but not below 18 which is even morally questionable) one needs parental confirmation... Only the indigenous culture has the ancient practice of marrying younger ages but that was many many generations ago...
By the way, who's Netanyahu do you refer?
By the way, I do admire Witty, Yonira, Netanyahu, and similar others on their steadfastness in fighting intellectually for Israel...
When I joined in this debate I joined as an individual not as a team... So that is not a problem what others think of me... besides I only rely on the validity of arguments not on the strength of personalities. I have no idea on the people you are dropping here, nor care whether they are famous Jews or not... My concern is solely to present my arguments...
[Israel has no jurisdiction over the waters the flotilla will be entering you ignorant troll. Israel’s claim that it does is meaningless because it is not recognized by any international laws.]
[Gaza fell to British forces during World War I, becoming a part of the British Mandate of Palestine. As a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Egypt administered the newly-formed Gaza Strip territory and several improvements were undertaken in the city. Gaza was captured by Israel in the Six-Day War in 1967, but in 1993, the city was transferred to the Palestinian National Authority. Hamas took over the city in 2007 after months of clashes with its rival Fatah, and since then Gaza has been under a blockade by Israel. (Wikipedia)]
Gaza by virtue of its capture in 1967 is subjugated and technically under the control by the Israel government. It was transferred to the PNA, but by virtue again of its hostilities against Israel and defeat to Israel in the Gaza 2008-09 War, it technically went back ‘under the occupation control’ of Israeli government (explaining its blockade).
Likewise, with the view of the conduct of war the coastal waters around Gaza are territorial seas of Israel on various grounds: a) Gaza is technically recognized inside the territory of Israel (see Israel Map (wikipedia)); b) The declaration of independence and the recognition of Israel as an independent state recognizes its authority and domain over all the internationally recognized territory of Israel. c) there was yet no formal declaration of any peace nor armistice agreement between Gazans and Israel, thus d) Gaza has no sovereignty formally recognized by Israel its formerly ‘military occupant’ (relative to 1948 hostilities) and ‘effective political’ to control over its area (by virtue of Hamas political representation). The Gaza Palestinian ‘government’ remained deemed temporary and was not even supported by a formal declaration of armistice, and its ‘total political authority’ was voided by the fact of Gaza war (2008-2009) ) Such that without the formal declaration of peace between these people and Israel, the territorial designation of Gaza for Palestinians as well as the West Bank were merely temporary ‘provided’ by Israel in the exigency of peace. The nature of conflict and the state of belligerency can be considered as an effective extension of the Arab-Israeli war that occurred during the termination of the British Mandate in 1948. The military blockade of the Israelis (even if its land territory was included in the turnover to the PNA) is a manifestation of its ‘conventional’ authority of Israel over the land area of Gaza. (See Hague 1 and 2 Conventions )
Under such arguments Gaza coastal waters are technically considered Territorial Seas of Israel under effective control and jurisdiction by the Israeli government. Any act of breaching this blockade is 'aiding the enemies of Israel and technically subject to the war of attrition'.
This breach now become a subject to the laws, traditions, or ‘customs of war’. Sadly the Geneva Conventions generally covered only on the treatment of people (soldiers, prisoners, civilians etc.) This aspect is mainly based on customs traditions and rationality of war. There was this Hague Convention of 1899 and 1907 (pertaining to the laws and customs of war in) but the application appeared outdated relative to the latest issues in modern warfare It is perhaps nations tried to avoid war as a formal non-verbal way of communication between nations.
The are many keywords with regards to the Law of the Sea Convention;
Baselines;
High Seas;
Territorial Sea;
Inland Sea; and
Right of Innocent Passage; and the
Contiguous zone where in this extent any state can do arrest to any one that has violated its laws. (Convention on the Territorial Sea and The Contiguous Zone Geneva on 29 April 1958)
These are legal complexities that may support he arrest of the involved activists...
[United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, Part VII [9]:
* article 87(a) provides for “freedom of navigation.”
* article 88 states, "The high seas shall be reserved for peaceful purposes."
* article 89 states, "No State may validly purport to subject any part of the high seas to its sovereignty."
* article 90 states, "Every State, whether coastal or land-locked, has the right to sail ships flying its flag on the high seas"]
These provision of laws refer to the high seas... which Israel could have no objection; what is the crucial contention here is when the flotilla ships pass over the high seas and have entered the Israeli territorial jurisdiction.... This is were the reality comes in....
[Even the Zionists on this forum think you are scum.]
No problem, as along as were are 'fighting' faithfully in our own way for the same purpose...
[Have you noticed that no one takes you seriously]
Not that as a problem to me. Not being taken for an argument could mean many things... As you have mentioned my being coherent or cogent, that - also be a factor as it was that way... It could be an honor, or a condemnation... Nevertheless, my main intention is to deflect accusations against Israel that I personally felt irrational and unjust...
In short, defend Israel from unjust vexation....
[Having made a fool of yourself during your first preparances on this blog, where you cited the Bible on every occasion, you obviously figured out that everyone had dismissed you as a religious nut.]
I am sport; I can tell you what was in my mind. The first salvos were heavy scriptural to address the conflicting issue of historical as well as ethnic claims of Israel as against his critics...
Now that these were delineated (not necessarily mutually ) as well as to the human dynamics that underscore the responses of the 'enemies', and the spiritual principles that support the 'questioned' conducts of of Israel in this war...
Now I can have more 'space' to argue on secular (historical, and legal) matters...In fact I am just learning my arguments from your posts itself!
[Your subsequent posts have been no more coherent and cogent that your previous dogmatic religious citations. You were a religious nut job then and you remain one now.]
Yes, because my arguments were basically rooted to the spiritual values and moral views I grew up with since I was a child... This was not though an academic training. If I were a religious nut, it will just appear instantenously as situation calls...
[It was six you imbecile, not 1.]
I was just trying to refer to a work of another researchers (Nancy Kanwisher, Johannes Haushofer, & Anat Biletzki). According to the notes the succeeding 6 were killed in an airstrike ... In as much a I was not there personally I should the notes as it was in good faith...
I observed you always link my historical assessments to religion... I have not mentioned any scriptural writings on this matter yet! Were you deeply traumatized by my scriptural presentations in our previous debates?
LOL! You appeared like Tom over Jerry…
'A Necessary Mistake' appears to be a veiled approval of the Israeli response though many critics insist Operation Cast Lead was a mistake.
Nevertheless, this matter is simply a hindsight view of a 'finished' issue....
There is something lacking in this presentation. According to one study the Gaza conflict started this way:
[Second, and just as important, what happened to end this striking period of peace? On November 4th, Israel killed a Palestinian, an event that was followed by a volley of mortars fired from Gaza. Immediately after that, an Israeli air strike killed six more Palestinians. Then a massive barrage of rockets was unleashed, leading to the end of the ceasefire. (link to huffingtonpost.com
During the Gaza hostilities Livni as shown in Aljazeera, was referring to the barrage of rockets that hit southern towns of Israel such as Sderot. This deadly conflict was a valve off culmination after a year of rockets attacks that totaled more than 1,000 triggered by a killing of a Palestinian after a relatively 4-month lull.
If there could be some culpability by Israelis in the killing of a Palestinian, that large-scale retribution by mortar fires and rockets was a unwarranted act to trigger a war that risked the wide-scale devastation of Gaza.
[I don't see one question here about what the massive Israeli onslaught did to the Palestinians.]
This issue of excessive use of force has been raised continuously by the critics of Israel.
This issue was perhaps based on some provisions of the Hague convention such as:
[To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury; To destroy or seize the enemy's property, unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war (The Hague Convention 1and 2. Section II. On Hostilities. Chapter I. Article 23)]
Although this convention is relevant to the present, it has problem regarding implementation… On the context, this convention was dated 1899, thus it refers to the older form of explosives and bombardment where the strength and intensity of destruction is based on the number of guns used and volleys made. Making the intensity of damage relatively determined. In modern times of warfare one projectile alone can made so much complete destruction that the impact could hardly be correspondingly measured nor controlled just to make partial damage…
[In sieges and bombardments all necessary steps should be taken to spare as far as possible edifices devoted to religion, art, science, and charity, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not used at the same time for military purposes. (The Hague Convention 1and 2. Section II. On Hostilities. Chapter I. Article 27)]
The problem is when the Hamas combatants were armed civilians in civilian clothes as many were not completely uniformed (as shown in Aljazeera) making all the civilians potential targets.. Worst when armed men, and rockets were seen along these aforementioned civilian centers. Thus any violations on this matter could be partially attributed to Hamas leadership.
[Israel targets landmark Palestinian estate on West Bank with ‘papers from God’]
Such is a bad 'title' making things worst by creating an uncalled impression of religious bias against all those who have no personal interest on this conflict... but simply believed these ‘papers from God’. The title ‘papers from God’ has connotation offensive or of mockery against those who believes on the 'papers'... Now this heading made more 'potential enemies that friends'... which connotation could have even obliterate all the sympathetic arguments made for Nassars...
Are we sure Ben White is pro-Palestinian?
The Lebanon crisis reminds of the blunders made by the Arab leaders in 1948.... and the commonality were Miscalculations... Nasrallah has made two big errors; a) made supplementary abductions while prisoner swapping was till on progress...b) used Katyushas as diversionary tactics... One must never used a thing of 'massive impact' as 'diversionary tactic'. This was indeed perceived an obvious act of 'war'! Justifying massive response by the Israelis… All these created an impression of bad-faith and unwarranted aggression on behalf of the Hizbollahs, making it appeared the Israelis were simply doing a defensive stance.
[Israel does not want Shalit because getting him back would take away any excuse Israel has been using to continue stealing land from the Palestinians.]
Walid, if you were a Jew, this is only a matter of a very rational view; but if you were an Arab, why do not all the Arab leaders think like you? Have they not realized Shalit could be a like a live Trojan Horse? A wooden horse containing hundreds of moral basis for continuing attacking Hamaz?
Thanks Walid, you have the point here… The Lebanese must be given the right to equip itself as a democratic government …to exercise its national integrity…and sovereignty. I hope these issues must have been considered prudently by both the Lebanese and Israeli government.
There are many issues in this conflict: a) Why was Israel negotiating with Hizbollah, and not the Lebanese government? b) Why did the Lebanese government allow the Hizbollah a militant group to exist parallel to its military? e) Was the existence of Hizbollah legitimate before the Lebanese government? f) If not legitimate, why then the Lebanese government allowed the Israelis negotiate directly with the Hizbollah? Both yes, and no answers will make Lebanon accountable solely to their own demise…This is the responsibility of an established government of independent state…
The Lebanese must first explain why Hezbollah continued existing before denying any connection to them.
'Renegade attack' has been a classic strategy of Muslim armed groups whenever they pursue leverage against any established governments. There in Mindanao in late 90s, MNLF 'renegade groups' attacked government positions whenever they pursue leverage in their demands against the Philippine government. So former Pres. Estrada lost patience and declared all-out war against the MNLF positions and overrun their major camps... Eventually the MNLF lost their hard-earned territories encroached by many years, and also lost personality before the government peace negotiations. In early
2000s the MILF did the same tactic.., some renegade commanders attacked the generally peaceful towns in Northern Lanao and other municipalities of Mindanao. Then, naturally the Philippine governments responded militarily pursuing whenever these 'renegade' ran. As usual, main group denied involvement with the renegades attacks. However, as usual the renegade groups would 'take cover' behind the 'legitimate MNLF groups' so the consequences was that many camps of legitimate MILF groups (allocated for them) were overrun and captured by the Phil. government forces.
All by summary, the peace negotiation that has already underwent years of processed was suspended indefinitely...
This Hezbollah militants are simply like a renegade groups for the Lebanon government that they can easily deny when things got hot... but in any case, it was Beirut that suffered the real destruction and great losses after the hostilities.
Now who was the real loser?
Richard, whose with or whom invited, protector, did or did not recognized Hezbollah as a militia at all... those are only vestiges of the Lebanon-Israel conflict. The crucial point here is that the rockets that rained over Israel was launched from Lebanon, thus being a responsible and accountable state, leveling its cities to the grounds are but Israel reactions consequential to the war... in a state of hostilities, there was no one but Lebanon itself is responsible to its damage it shared and received during that war...
[If Israelis violated these moral and legal grounds, the whole world will convict them, if not, the whole world will absolve them…]
On the other hand if the activists were found to have acted in gross violation of legal processes of an independent state, the world will accept or recognized any adverse action of Israel and make accountable of any death incurred to the activists...
In sum, the life of a ‘martyr’ is well( stupidly?) spent… His or her name will be ‘glorified among nations’(I hope) but the real fact is – he’s or she’s cold dead! While the rest of the members are living and would be enjoying the comforts of the beds….
[“I’m sure that there are some on the flotilla and many “supporting” the flotilla that are praying for an altercation, praying for gunfire, for someone to die.”]
If someone dies, the moral questions could be; a) Did the parties in conflict observed rules of engagement?; b) Did the party of primordial interest appropriately warned the other party in conflicts? c) Was there provocations to violence?, d) Were the acts and responses of the conflicting parties conducted in appropriate, conventional, and legally justifiable manner?
If Israelis violated these moral and legal grounds, the whole world will convict them, if not, the whole world will absolve them...
Take note that independent states have class of rights according to recognized laws that govern among them, and this class of recognized laws is entirely distinct (and maybe opposite) to individual rights widely recognized within the law of the every state....
When the actions or responses of Israel fall within the bounds, provisions or privilege of law... That is the reason why no other sector, people, nation, nor country explicitly resist those ... Just as the Islamic countries bloody cut the heads-off of convicts (which is considered 'inhuman' by other countries) as provided by their own laws...
This rule of law and of sovereignty is a sad fact, but must be respected by all, as law is recognized rule by itself...
The thing is that there is a portion of the sea that the Israeli jurisdiction meets with the Egyptian...where this planned breach by the flotilla could also compromise the Egyptian government into the crisis (in scandalous levels) that Egyptians has no other option but to assist or act the capture of the Flotilla crew as well. If the Flotilla goes into the hands of the Egyptians the scenario can be even worst as the issue can be of potential strategic complication against Egypt... Much more that this flotilla was primarily intended to embarrass Israel not Egypt. Feeding Egypt 'to the wolves' can make the Egyptians really angry...
[I guess we’ll see if the same happens when Israelis murder peaceful activists carrying relief supplies from other countries in international territory.]
Definitely the Israelis will attempt to capture the activists... But personally I anticipate some violent struggle or resistance from the activist that would qualify them for temporary detention, which by process of law could extend to over a year by mere means of technicalities...
[The “Freedom Flotilla” is made up of nine ships now in the Mediterranean Sea sailing to Gaza. The ships are stocked with badly needed aid, like construction materials, medical equipment and school supplies, for Gazans; such aid has been blocked by a crippling Israeli naval, air and land blockade.]
This intent is definitely noble, but before the eyes of governments, laws are laws, and rules are rules... These are the principles that sustains world institutions...
[give these to hungry African villages in Sudan (without respect to ethnic distinction…)]
Perhaps by airlift to very remote Sudanese villages...
There are still many alternatives:
a) Capture the offenders and detain then according to the provisions of law ('throw all the books' over them);
b) Inspect the goods, and give the security cleared materials to the intended Gaza Palestinians (through IDF); if they refused officially, turn these over to West Bank Palestinian Officials, if they also refused officially, give these to hungry African villages in Sudan (without respect to ethnic distinction...) These are acts of goodwill that will also turn history excitingly…
LOL! That picture of a man could only create an insignificant fuzz....
[Damn humaneness. National integrity is at stake here, man! Crucifixion? To the right, one cross each]
Oh! I think this adventure is great, challenging, and exciting? Why are you having concerns with guillotine, or crucifixion?
All I just proposed was about the 'execution' of the appropriate laws to the fullest!
[Not One Word from any rep of the Free Gaza movement]
Yes, perhaps because the know the logical terrain of this act...
These people must feel transgressing one's national integrity is a very serious matter...
[I REALLY DO sense that with every passing day, Palestine is indeed coming closer to liberation]
See! With this sentiment, once the Israelis allowed this thing to pass over, he has opened the floodgates of violation of its national integrity… With this above sentiment, as this has significant connection to national security, if I were the government I will see to it; every culpability against the law must be charged to the violators at maximum…
I do not agree with the plan of sending these people back to their country immediately... They must be treated fairly like ordinary offenders... they have to pay their fare back after due legal proceedings... Otherwise having the grandeousness and excitement many more would come ...
Israel must maintain its dignity as a nation... He must execute what is in the law!
The Israelis must never try to explain more... they more they are apologetic they more the people think they have culpability, and guilty...
All they have to do is stand firm on the legalities of actions... the supreme power or justice lies on the law... They just have to wait till the flotilla arrives and arrest everyone there and send them to detention whenever there are basis...
In fact the greater concern here lies in the eventual distribution of goods and materials... not on the arrest of people involved!
I would like to see if any Jew (by blood) of 'la mood' happily agrees to my premises... If not, they are simply cowards... 'more mouths than hearts'...
Have not these NY Jews heared that the Islamic militants professed terror to spread the Islamic religion, and impose Shariah law throughout the world? What if the secular Americans in New York adopt too this 'la mode' attitudes among the NY Jews? Even the Jews that own funeral parlors could never enjoy their highly increased profits....
How it would be as we witness the Holocaust of 1940s is being done in entire world, from London, Paris, to New York? Can the New Yorkers save themselves?
[The sociologist's client has an answer to that: money. Good and vicious. "... to restore Jewish identity... remove Israel from the equation, or insist it radically change its course."]
Better the 'remove Israel from the equation', and we will see if they New York Jews can really live with it in their conscience under the last of their generations... If all the Jews in Israel are killed because of this la mode... they in NY too will be hunted as Jewish (by blood) and killed eventually.... When betraying or exposing the Jews to vulnerability becomes a "la mode", it would be much easier for the Muslims to go to heaven as they have eternal rewards for killing Jews wherever they are... I think this 'la mode' idea is interesting to watch...
And worst, the manner the critics of Israel taunt the world opinion, are likewise fueling this flame of hatred, and this pattern of antagonism between two peoples...
[Why do you ignore it when Israelis burn their mosques and bomb their hospitals and imprison their leaders and slaughter their children by the hundreds]
I have been telling this; war is a tragedy. Anything can happen in a war. War is not a game were responses of the protagonists are measured... War is painful, extremely painful to the point of insanity... If we detest these sorrows of war, why go to war? why force one nation to react violently? Why induce Israel to make obnoxious policies just to protect and sustain themselves securely? Systematically the Gaza Palestinians and Israel are at the state of a low intensity war...as peace between two parties was not yet formally declared yet...
The trouble in our search for peace is that we only look at the issue only on one side - our own preferred side.
I do not hate the Palestinians. What I detest more is the character of looking unto the issue one-sided... and worst, accusing the other protagonist based on this preferred side alone. Such is a callous disrespect to reason. I do not worship reason, but as for me it is a hallowed ground…
It is not I favor to the Israelis over his 'enemies'. It is not by hatred against the Palestinians (we even have recently visited our beloved muslims cousins). It is the despicable way you critics handle you burning hatred against the Jews...
[...pictures of Nazi Germany’s occupation of Poland.]
The Nazis used forced labor on the 'undesirable people'. In Israel the
people who 'relatively hateful' of Jews and rejecting the statehood of Israel are complaining over long wait in their way to their jobs in Israel...
This is why accusations of inhuman treatment by the Jews have tendency to fall back squarely on Israel critics....
Can we not see some irrational ironies between and among peoples here?
a) Why long wait?
b) Why in Israel?
c) Where are the Palestinians leaders?
d) Where is the Palestinian wisdom for enhancing their own people?
Thanks to Katya Reed for amplifying these ironies....
[“Everything I demand, I can get,” says Abu Amar al-Kahlout, who sells household goods out of a warehouse big enough to accommodate a passenger jet.]
[According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the number of “abject poor”, who depend on food aid, trebled to 300,000 – or one in five of all Gazans – in 2009.]
This statement of a trader creates an impression these informal channels are capable of flowing in goods or market products in large quantities. The fact the economy of Gaza is not literally dead, this flotilla has no other purpose but 1) to embarrass the Israeli government, 2) incite by involving other Islamic countries in a deadly war, 3) to show the world that any begrudged country can bully Israel in the name of ‘Allah’, ‘righteousness’, ‘humanity’, etc., and, 4) the potential of crating more opportunities for creating humanitarian NGOs organizations, and rake tax-free money from humanitarian programs of donor countries (it is undeniable based on experienced that in some situations NGOs were created like a business scam in the name of humanity and good intents).
I may sound cruel but sometimes we should look at the painful truth…
[Israel’s police and prisons service are now on standby, ready to deal with the potential arrest of hundreds of activists in the event that the Netanyahu government decides to block the flotilla's passage. I imagine some kind of internment camp may need to be set up for holding and interrogating the peaceful activists prior to their deportation.]
One bad possibility here is that one year or more imprisonment for these ‘global’ violators to make them much more virulent militants, to make things easier next time…
[In the name of “security” — the catchall phrase used so often to justify brutality — through its siege on Gaza, Israel has engaged in a systematic campaign not merely to deprive a society of its physical needs but in order corrode, undermine and ultimately destroy the society itself.]
The adverse policies of Israel is not an isolation, and it could viewed with fairness of war inasmuch as the UNRWA is eager and desirous to bully (with this humanitarian flotilla) Israel anyway…
Thanks to Paul Woodward for his insightful comments...
In these developments such as in the flotilla, it is now the UN relief agency and its supporters are now acting like 'global bullies'...
Remember that true justice is absolute...
Because these issues such as the apartheid wall, detailed reports, etc... by HR organizations even those acts of UN personnel, are not absolutely right, just, and reasonable...
It is truly said that 'the proof of a pudding is in the eating'...
[Like the Geneva Conventions, the ICC rulings about the apartheid wall, detailed reports from HRW and B’Tselem and Amnesty International and dozens of human rights organizations, international human rights making torture illegal, various UN reports and testimonies from UN personnel (often having been attacked by Israel), etc….]
If these were totally legally grounded, then why was there no utmost unilateral Security Council resolution to destroy Israel?
In short, why does Israel still exist?
And yet these mighty nations out of polity did not laugh, as they have diplomatically respected the right of every one and the pain of the people suffering...
[You don’t just fight wars and then expect the loser to get everything back, it’s childish. This isn’t a fucking sandbox, it’s the world of IR and global politics.]
Not only childish... for many centuries since the dawn of civilization man has been making wars and killing each other... yet not an iota of its tragic history had a vanquished demanded and prevailed over the victor...
This demand is amazingly incredible, that even the Russians, China, British, Germans, or the Turks could die laughing with it!
[Ummm, a smart allegory ... Yes, something similar to that...]
Because until now, no critic has yet formally and categorically presented an itemized issues and historical, legal, and cultural basis for condemning Israel based on conventional principles of law, morality, and justice...
[Any criticism of Israel comes with the smell of Zyklon-B!]
Ummm, a smart allegory ... Yes, something similar to that...
If Israel gained political and strategic advantage in 1948, it was not by their own making either, they were just able to smartly hitched on the fateful opportunities (on strategic mistakes of their adversaries) that consequently followed...
If you insist on the view of making Israel accountable, you are just making yourself politically irrelevant and wasting you political energy...
Why should anyone confront an issue not of his own making? Shall we forced Israel solve problems created by Arab leaders way back 1948... By that time Israel has shared his part in the resolution (it could be nominal by context but due to subsequent reactions of Arab leaders); they by fate just turned out having the momentous advantage of the situation that precipitated.
I support energy conservation not wasting... political energy is a scarce resource...
Predestination is only 'our' own thing of belief.. among us who believed on it... but to others who don't, that is not an issue... after all it is in 'the eating that matters'... and that does not concern us either.
I just mentioned things on these matter previously for others who maybe interested to see that way.... It is only for 'seeing' and not for destroying others other beliefs...
On crucial issues such as this conflict over Israel one matured person should never count the opinion of a person who has not yet seen comprehensively the various factors of said conflict (historical, legal, political, social, etc.) much more innocent reactions of children. Otherwise it is only sentimentalizing the issue to either blow it up to a war scale, or sustaining a low-intensity deadly conflict...which tragically only the affected people actually suffer....
Why, has the nature of man totally changed?
This phenomenal rigidity of human character that crossed centuries since the first documentation of a people was ever written, made me even more a believer of the credibility of ancient scriptures....
It is better or a must for Israel to place aside this issue and move forward towards its own progress...
It is even not relevant to deal with the issue of right to return inasmuch as this issue is already 'water under the bridge' (overrun by history and conducts of war) as the result of many succeeding wars against Israel... Knowing the fact this problem was not Israel doings nor its blunders in 1948...
If you are truly a disciple of human rights, peace, and equality why deprive Richard Witty of his?... Does this proves your previous declarations were simply lip service?
A mosque is basically a building, what is the issue here is the cultural value and religious rights connected to the building...
Nevertheless we should look at the fact that no religious practice is banned here. The issue remains on the fact of destroying a building built on a questionable land. Initially a building can only be preserved if it stand on a land titled for such private ownership...but even so according to law, the state having the absolute domain, has still the right to expropriate such property if it declared so necessary...and that authority can only be persuaded by an appeal not never questioned.
Before any argument, one must first understand the workings of law and governments before condemning any of the party in conflict...
["Wawro is surprised that his book is not receiving reviews outside of a Washington Post online blog. No mention in the NYT, the New Yorker, etc. When you listen to him as well as read the book, you'll understand why. He doesn't pull his punches. The book is a must for anyone interested in the subject."]
1) Perhaps these publishers with 'more pressing priorities' have no time to review yet...
2) Perhaps his book covered more on the issues already situated 'under the bridge'...
3) Perhaps his book appears like a chat-room discussion only...
4) Perhaps the readers felt he missed intentionally a lot of facts
or rationalities that these readers have previous ideas and felt important to be discussed...
These are only perhaps, yet may have 'determined' the level of interest over his book...
[Otherwise the war, bitter conflict, and sufferings continue…]
And you have no right to complain...
My main point there is that when you raised war against anybody, you must be ready to face its reality, the courage to accept defeat, and has the humility to accept the consequences of your aggression…
Otherwise the war, bitter conflict, and sufferings continue…
Acts of violence are only prosecuted within the regime of peace, but not in a state of war... That violence was precisely the fact war was created for...
Have you not seen that the Palestinian (Gaza) war was not yet formally declared ended, nor peace declared attained? In a state of attrition, or in a state of belligerence like between two Koreas what would you expect?
I thought I am the ignorant one here?
This Gaza conflict (2008-09 war) was even the ground that gave the Israelis facts to show the whole world of the premises and reason to pursue the result of war...
Whatever they decide on these facts having gained the upperhand, shall we accuse them? What is your right to do so?
Have you not realized the international laws are also based on internationally accepted conventions? In the conventions of war, historically it was the victor that controls the situation or the territory not the vanquished... otherwise no victor is shown, and the war continues...
[Answer us straight, zamaaz — you clearly don’t believe that Gaza belongs to the Gazans living there.]
The situation of the Gazans is a product of this insane contest, a war of attrition, which I strongly believe no, not one individual has the capacity nor moral right to judge, nor condemn any contesting party involved... This is a matter for either history or a higher ascendant rules and laws to determine....
[Do you believe that Israel has the right to expel any (or all) Palestinians, should they chose?]
Define right... (moral, conventional, or legal?) By outright sense, yes.. as the result of war of attrition... This is the painful truth, but because the state of Israel allowed (perhaps on humanitarian or diplomatic grounds whatever it is (?)) them to be there, so be it...The rest is for them Palestinian to determine politically their future…