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I think the great investigative journalist John Pilger would disagree with your comments on Australia’s treatment of the indigenous Aboriginee population:
“… in fact more rights for indigenous as it happens, and an official Government sorry, not to mention countless billions spent annually on trying to help the few indigenous still in need,…”
I saw his docu-film called UTOPIA a couple of years ago and it reveals the quite a lot about the real treatment and attitudes towards the Aborigine people until this very day
I’m not sure if you’ve seen the film but it’s free to watch on his website and its also available free on YouTube. I’ve never lived in Australia but I know that you and some other commenters here have and do (Talknic, Shingo, RoHa…) so would be interested to hear other comments about this
However over the decades I’ve learned to trust the work John Pilger has done on most subjects including the israel/Palestine issue so the film seems very credible to me
Isn’t it heart breaking that we often are estranged from family. Especially, when so many people espouse the sanctity of family. In the mountain west, there are many fundamental mormons. Because polygamy is illegal, they hide their ways, there is much abuse. They use all those cult tactics you brilliantly described yesterday. Seldom is there visibility from outside, and seldom is there hope from inside. Those poor young innocents.
Your addition…and attention to all, has been a first on mw, in my memory.
Thank you so much CG for your empathy and warmth. I don’t have a ‘tool’ to help with this I’m afraid. None of my childhood friends would have anything to do with me and neither do any members of my family except my brother and his family and there too, there is tension as my sister in-law is a committed Zionist who doesn’t question and isn’t interested in politics anyway.
In other words, I have no advice whatsoever except to try and remain calm, and always remain compassionate regardless, while at the same time maintain firm boundaries and insist on saying what we believe. We must demonstrate by example that there is an alternative way to live in the world that isn’t about scoring points, about winning an argument and or knocking down the other person. ‘Fighting for peace’ is an oxymoron. I have always searched for a non-adversarial way to do activism, or do anything really… It seems to me, from reading your comments on this thread, that you would have no problem being this way with whomever you are relating to. So that’s my wee contribution.
I have to sign off for now as my first client is due in less than 10 minutes. Thank you so much for being you and for your excellent participation here. You and people like you are the ones who make a difference to the world and make it all worthwhile. Until later…
No, you are not going on. This is valuable stuff. I love cause and effect. While you were writing, I was doing a brush up on Edward Bernay. I like looking in other peoples toolboxes from time to time to see if I recognize what the tools are for. Probably because I would like to be able to find one that helps to get thru to friends and family…like you would, to your childhood friend.
Thanks for the heads up on “searching for Sugar Man”. I’m definitely going to watch it, especially as I’ve never heard of him until you mentioned it. Sounds like an incredible story.
Both Bob Dylan and Paul Simon have undeniable talent and have created some of the most incredible music since the early 60s. With regards to Dylan, the answer regarding his religious beliefs are a little mysterious and might be “blowing in the wind” somewhere but I can’t find them. Here’s a clue:
But whether we agree or disagree that lc, Dylan or the Coen Bros have real talent or not I think it brings us back to Avigail’s description about how deep the brainwashing goes, even with artists who have created some of the best music, film of all time. We would like to believe that someone like Dylan would only have a universal humanitarian way of thinking where no single group is favoured at the expense of another. But I think we have to accept that however great some of these artists are, their zionist brainwashing runs at a deeper level than their artistry. Sad but true.
I had to finally dump one lifelong Jewish friend recently who I always thought would eventually come around to the truth, being a very learned “highly intelligent” academic an’all. But he just can’t change his thinking on this one issue yet we are on the same page with everything else. It’s too frustrating to deal with him any longer. It’s like there’s some kind of denial barrier, some sort of firewall around his brain that refuses to accept real facts and truth about the i/p issue. He reminds me of those Jewish artists
Thank you CigarGod!
I think having been abused at home made me feel like an outsider anyway. It’s really hard to look at society around you in a positive light when such terrible things happen to you at home, no one sees it, or if anyone does, they do nothing about it.
It’s easier to question maybe and not trust the mainstream around you. On one hand it’s a terrible burden on a child and it was on me. I very nearly didn’t make it. But on the other I have to wonder if it helped me know that things are not always what they seem and that bad things can happen even behind closed doors, even when people insist on maintaining an image on the outside. Maybe I could empathise with the look in the eyes of all the Palestinian labourers who were building our apartment blocks in the streets around me. Maybe I saw something familiar.
As an adult survivor of abuse it is really easy for me to identify with other victims and certainly with the Palestinian people. I did a lot of work on this over the years and I could see that my family did not evolve in isolation. They were a part of a social context. Of course not everyone in Israel abuses their children. My parents are particularly damaged people. But you can see in them the elements of narcissism, of focus on image, of cowardice, deceit, superiority, fear and of a profound lack of compassion and empathy. Long story really.
Not everyone makes it after a childhood like mine. I consider myself very lucky. Although I don’t believe in god the way god is seen in our main religions, I have believed my whole life that something was watching over me. After two very real suicide attempts in my youth, I knew I had to make a choice to live and have clawed my way out of the black hole I was put into.
It’s an amazing place to be where I am now and I love the fact that as a psychotherapist I can accompany others on similar journeys. I questioned because I didn’t have a choice but to question. Questioning my reality was part of recovering personally. As I was recovering from my family trauma I also recognised that I had to recover from my societal trauma.
Many of those who are very loyal, patriotic Zionists in Israel come from good families where they were loved and not abused. They still believe that Israel is a good country. I have a few old school friends who despite their own military service still can’t believe that the Israeli state is bad and immoral. If things don’t look good they are armed with justifications and comfort themselves that they are good to their families and children, that they are good people who have good family values…
The last time I had contact with an old school friend that I was very fond of, quite a few years ago now, and politely tried to say what I thought (he unfriended me on FB immediately after), he told me that he believed his government knew what it was doing and that things aren’t as bad as I am portraying them. This is a very intelligent and capable man, a former officer in the Israeli airforce and I have a suspicion he is working for the Mossad. He comes from a well-to-do, very loving family. I knew them intimately and as a youngster always wished that his parents were my parents. Now, however, it seems that I am outside the cult, while he is completely sold out on it. My hellish childhood might have played a useful part in all of this after all… But I don’t wish this on anyone and the outcome isn’t always a good one. Sorry to go on here…
Thanks Oldgeezer. I appreciate it. :)
Stories like yours, must explain why the ancients felt some were called of God. The odds against you coming out of the fire with a free mind, were impossible.
Why are you so sarcastic Catalan? I don’t understand why such a tone is necessary. However, to try and address your point anyway: it took William Wilberforce 52 years to get slavery abolished in England, and that was just in England. He spent his entire career working towards it. How long did it take women to get the vote? How long did South African apartheid last before it was finally defeated? Some things sadly take time.
The momentum against Israel is growing. Regardless of your particular sentiments, the world is beginning to ask questions that should have been asked a long time ago, but it’s happening now. Partly this is because Israel itself is becoming more brazen and arrogant, thinking that it can get away with anything, partly because it’s harder to hide things in a world with the communication technology we have now and partly because education about Israel’s true beginning and true trajectory is gradually coming through everywhere all around the world. The momentum is growing whether you like it or not. The BDS empowers individuals who feel powerless otherwise because we can all make choices about where we spend our hard earned cash. We don’t need to be rich and powerful to not buy dates made in Israel at Marks and Spencer or Tesco’s.
I believe we will see an end to the exclusively Jewish state, and the start of a one state for all in Palestine in my lifetime (that is unless climate change hasn’t driven everyone out of that area already!)
Your sarcasm isn’t discouraging. It’s just a bit sad. I don’t even understand the purpose of it. I have heard this exact argument that you make from many people before. So because it takes time it means it is not happening, or that it shouldn’t happen? It is a strange line of argument.
There seems to be fear and wishful thinking behind this kind of argument. Fear is the greatest enemy of compassion, kindness, empathy and real human progress towards the wonderful, safe and wholesome world that we are capable of creating. Overcoming fear and resisting the fear others try to instil in us, should be everyone’s main goal. How about it Catalan?
Turn on your sarcasm detector, Kris.
What we have in the case of the Zionist movement and Israel is a pattern of a serial perpetrator of murder, mass murder and terror. This is a well established fact. That pattern started well before the creation of Israel, see eg the murder of Jacob Israël de Haan on 30/6/1924 or the King David Hotel bombing on 22/7/1946. That murderous pattern continued after the creation of Israel, see for the early days for example the murder of Folke Bernadotte on 17/9/1948 and then read “Israel’s sacred terrorism” based on Moshe Sharett’s Personal Diary:
Since the early days of Zionism there are so many proven Zionist and Israeli state sponsored murders that it is hard to keep tracking them all. The murderous pattern of Israeli behaviour continues to the very recent time, think for example of the attampted assassination of Khaled Mashal on 25/9/1997, the car bomb killing Imad Mughniyah on 12/2/2008, the murder of Brig Gen Mohammed Suleiman on 1/8/2008 (which was just recently proven by US documents to be an Israeli job), the assassination of Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh on 19/1/2010 or the recent serial murder of Iranian scientists.
The murder of Jacob Israël de Haan proves that the Zionist movement targeted also jews. It was not a single case. Naeim Giladi wrote in detail about his role as a Zionist in attacking Iraqi jews on behalf of Israel in his book: Ben-Gurion’s Scandals: How the Haganah and the Mossad Eliminated Jews. We also know from things like Operation Susannah and the attempt to sink the USS Liberty that Israel also has already attacked US targets in the past.
Generally I’ld say Israeli murders and terrors fit in two motive categories: either Israel committed state sponsored murders to get rid of anactual or perceived enemy like Khaled Mashal or Imad Mughniyah or someone deemed otherwise harmful to Israeli interests like Folke Bernadotte, or Israel committed acts of terror and murder with the intention of blaming the crime on someone else, ie perpetraiting “false flag operations”, like it was the case with attacking Iraqi jews or Operation Susannah. One regular motivation for Israeli false flag ops was to enlist the US in fighting Israel’s real or perceived enemies, ie starting US-led wars of aggression in the service of Israel. AIPAC/WINEP operatives publicly talk about using such “options” in the service of starting wars Israel wanted to get started:
A typical Israeli method to ensure false blame was faking signal intelligence. Victor Ostrovsky wrote about how the Mossad did falsely blame Libya of terror in his time with radio signal boxes placed by the Mossad in Libya for that purpose. In the case of the Ghouta chemical false flag terror attack, Israel simply provided the US with faked signal intelligence, essentially saying to Obama: now you must go to war, because we proved hereby that Syria crossed your chemical red lines.
So, now comes the funny thing. Despite this whole record of serial Israeli murder, terror and false flag terror targeting likewise enemies and friends, terrorists and innocents, Arabs and Westerners, Muslims, Christians and Jews, Syrians and Americans, and clear motives for Israel to perpetrate the crimes, there still exists a big taboo of talking about and investigating a possible Israeli sponsorship of the JFK murder and 9/11. It’s even deemed anti-semitic to speak about this.
I’m sure you are correct Annie, but if you talk to a human long enough, you will find one topic they are completely berserk about.
Around here we have a saying: Happier than a dog in cow%@$#. There are a lot of happy dogs in cow country.
We know it is pointless to try to reason with them. It’s like a sudden mindless fever…or someone said a magic word.
It just makes them so happy…to lose their minds.
He means the biblical Ahab who was a king in the kingdom of Israel that supposedly split from the kingdom of Judea. The bible portrays it as sinful because it ‘strayed’ from the ‘one true god’ worshipped by ‘ever faithful’ Judea, and supposedly worshipped foreign idols. Propaganda is rife in the bible and if you read it right you can see who the dominant cult or faction is. People then were the same as us now, they just didn’t have technology. But they thought the same and power plays and cultish psychology were exactly as they are today.
But interesting to bring up that Ahab too.
Either way, the bible obviously isn’t history but a collection of writings that were cobbled together from scrolls at various times. They were written by people searching for answers to question we still ask now, or building a mythology for the purpose of particular groups and factions. Plenty of propaganda in the bible too. Ahab and the kingdom of Israel get a bad reputation because they don’t follow the dominant faction that happens to be in power at the time. Simple stuff. It’s being done today as we know. Who said that history is written by the victors? So we don’t know really know if Ahab, if he even existed, really was ‘bad’ as he was portrayed in the stories of the bible. Just saying…
FROM THE CENTER FOR RESPONSIVE POLITICS (opensecrets.org) AS OF 10/28/13:
● Pro-Israel: Money to Congress
• All cycles
All Candidates: Total to All Candidates: $112,474,561
Incumbents Only: Total to Members: $91,696,169
Party / # of Members / Avg. Contribution / Total
Democrats 1,468 $17,787 $27,119,594
Republicans 973 $14,977 $15,500,766
Independents 2 $1,181 $15,350
TOTAL 2,443 $17,452 $42,635,710
The US House of Representatives has 435 members and 5 non-voting delegates.
Totals may exceed 440 due to mid-term replacements.
Party / # of Members / Avg. Contribution / Total
Democrats 377 $82,141 $31,227,126
Republicans 301 $53,446 $16,379,493
Independents 5 $102,324 $1,381,590
TOTAL 683 $71,725 $48,988,209
The US Senate has 100 members.
Totals may exceed 100 due to mid-term replacements.
The numbers on this page are based on contributions from PACs and individuals giving $200 or more.
All donations took place during the -1-All election cycle and were released by the Federal Election Commission on Sunday, August 18, 2013.
SOURCE – link to opensecrets.org
P.S. UPDATED FIGURES
Thank you Rossross, look, this is all speculative anyway and more a hypothesis than anything certain. But when I talk about the effect of the past, on societies like the US or Australia, I don’t mean that it is conscious. I think there are things that lurk in the shadows, underneath if you will, that people aren’t aware of but that are affecting the way governments react. I do think there is guilt (of the wrong kind) both in the US and in Australia that might be playing a part in the policy on Israel.
As for Australia’s policy on Israel I am no expert but I tend to disagree with you. Australia has been starry eyed about Israel for a very long time. Didn’t Bob Hawk get literally teary on TV talking about Israel? All Australian governments since then (not sure about before) regardless if they were Labor or Liberal, have been extremely supportive of Israel, always voting against resolutions that were not in Israel’s favour or otherwise abstaining.
Australian has been having really strong military ties with Israel for a very long time. Australian clearance divers (those divers whose job is to remove and disable old ordnance that lies at the bottom of the sea — very dangerous job) are trained in Israel and so are sections of the police and special forces. Please do not ask how I know this but I do. The Australian public is largely unaware of these things going on and the personnel who do the training in Israel are not supposed to tell. Israeli ‘experts’ in various aspects of ‘security’ are contracted to come to Australia to instruct various sections of Australia’s security outfits. So there are deep and quite practical ties going on. There is a real admiration of Israel in Australia and there I am not sure I can entirely attribute this to the Zionist Jewish lobby in Australia. Israel takes every new MP in Australia to a free of charge tour of Israel where they are being taught the official narrative of history as Israel wants them to know complete with the ‘poor victim Israel that is the only bastion of democracy in a sea of a savage Middle East. I know this because three years ago when I went on a book tour in Australia I spend three days in Parliament House in Canberra on a lobbying attempt with politicians there. Bob Carr was the only one who really questioned Israel more openly and the other ones did that very quietly. The Australian Greens were the only ones who refused to go on this junket tours of Israel, on principle and even their policy on Israel leaves quite a lot to be desired. But either way, I and my companions from APAN were told all about how Israel does it. Not so much the Zionist lobby in Australia but the actual Israeli government.
As for Australian treatment of Aboriginal people, I know you are very positive about it but I am not so convinced yet. Australia still has a way to go in its treatment of Aboriginal people, despite the formal apology from Rudd a few years back.
Anyway, like I said, the business about the role that this alleged guilt plays is speculative and I am not attached to it. I just think it might be playing a part there. Crimes from the past, even if they have been atoned, don’t just disappear from the psyche of people especially when the victims are still there to remind us of what was done to them.
@ Avigail Abarbanel
“4 years of high school that I otherwise loved”
Only 4? I loved it so much I stayed for a decade
(I thoroughly enjoyed your article but as I was late to respond I felt it was piling on until I had a suitable opening to justify it. thank you/)
Mooser, you are such a gem! You have such a spirit… :)
I have to say I can relate to the same experience of the aggression and a kind of insistence in the delivery. It grated on me very badly. I had no ‘evidence’ to back up any opposition on my part, I just had a gut reaction against all of it. I too hated to be told what to think. In my case it was in regular classes at school (8 years of primary school and 4 years of high school that I otherwise loved) on the history of Zionism. We had dozens of ceremonies and ‘special days’ where we learned about Israel’s wars, the war of 1948 or as they called it ‘the war of independence, and holocaust memorial day. It seemed there were endless days like that throughout the year and in class we were forever rehearsing for these ceremonies.
This continued also throughout my military service as well. They have a great many of those in the military to continue the indoctrination that starts in early childhood in kindergarten. And yes, the horrid Israeli folk dancing. Goodness. I hated it and felt guilty for hating it. Those who did it were considered the cream of the lot and the best of ‘us’… They were the quintessential Israeli Jew, the new Jew’ the one who wouldn’t go again like ‘sheep to the slaughter’… ‘There was a class mate of mine who was gorgeous and who everyone liked and I was secretly in love with him throughout high school. He only thought of me as a friend sadly for me… He used to dance really well and loved it… I wonder now what I was thinking… I just thought it was awful and I didn’t do it. But I am a singer and was always the soloist everywhere so used to sing all these Israeli nationalist folk songs. I never thought about the meaning of the lyrics. Can’t sing any of them now. I shudder to think that I used to sing them and like them…! Awful stuff.
Yeah thanks for the translation yonah. Don’t you have a recent bombing of women and children to defend?
ps… I don’t speak Aramaic or Russian either.
pps. I apologize, I shouldn’t have limited you women and children. Perhaps it’s shooting unarmed youth in the back.
Money makes the world go round
Oh Annie~ you’ve captured so many of my own feelings, and have expressed it all so well. Thank you.
old geezer- You expect me to faint in dread at the suggestion that I am not left wing? zionists are called nazis all the time on this site. name calling and labels are really not in the realm of ideas.
here is the link to the article in 972 where the Erekat quote can be found.
link to 972mag.com
It is linked back to an article in Hebrew Haaretz, which I am at this very moment trying to decipher.
For clarity sake, this is my order of preference for resolution or steps towards improvement of the Palestinian-Zionist conflict:
1. a negotiated settlement (along the lines of the 2003 Geneva accord)
2. withdrawing 98% of settlers from the West Bank and leaving Israeli troops there.
3. a unilateral withdrawal from the West Bank, except for parts of east Jerusalem.
4. a unilateral withdrawal from the west bank including all of east jerusalem
5. annexation of the west bank and giving full citizenship to its population
The reason I mention #5 before the others, is because to be honest when i talk to right wingers i don’t consider the first 4 to be an option that they will take seriously that puts them on the spot. further if i propose to Avigail one of the first four which I know the Bibi government is not serious about, then I would be scoffed at, but at least when I mention #5, which we know the right wingers want only the land and not the people, so at least there is something new introduced here: a different idea than one that: Withdraw today now! i accept that withdrawal today and now is a better alternative. Not going to happen and not very interesting to discuss. Not in the realm of ideas. In the realm of dogma. Which fits right in with your tendency to label me.
I feel that Israel is very static and a static defense will not work in this situation. If your primary objection to annexation is the will of the indigenous occupied people, then let that be the first step in my proposal. the next prime minister of israel states: the status quo sucks. we cannot negotiate with hamas or feckless fatah, therefore the path we see is annexation and with this in mind we ask the int’l community to conduct an election: yes or no to annexation and citizenship. it isn’t going to happen in the near future, but yes, i think this offer of honesty: we hate the status quo and wish to improve the situation and we are offering full citizenship to the west bank population, yes, i think this is a dynamic response. and even if the election is lost and the population votes 70% to 30% against annexation putting us back to square one, Israel will show initiative and dynamism rather than its current status quo defensive posture. also there will be that 30% to be built up upon.
“the bedrock religious principle of subvention”? Please explain.
endures in Haredi Judaism in many, many shameful verses which have led to the shedding of much blood.
brokebook, it’s not my understanding all haredi are like this. not all of them by any means.
I’m not too thrilled with the regime in Iran, either, but you haven’t explained the vehemence.
“You are anti USA”
No, just anti the regime, and not even all the regime post the ’76 revolution.
“See how far that gets you”
It isn’t supposed to get me anywhere.
RoHa – Just imagine the shit-storm if a non-Jew said that.
you do a great job of being on top of it just.
Sure she knows Americans. However, it was reported that fewer Republicans intermarry with Democrats than Jews with Christians. Socially, those two subsets socialize and discuss less and less. So among the numerous Americans that she knows there are very few who would have opposing view (and dared to say it to such a ferocious lady).
“I am sure you will agree that these visits should be as nearly as possible in accord with international standards, thereby resolving all doubts as to the peaceful intent of the Dimona project. As I wrote to Mr. Ben-Gurion, this government’s commitment to and support of Israel could be seriously jeopardized if it should be thought that we were unable to obtain reliable information on a subject as vital to peace as the question of Israel’s effort in the nuclear field.”
Geez, it’s hard to believe a US president ever spoke to an Israeli PM man to man and without alot of crap. I wonder what a second JFK term would have been like and what would the US look like today but even more, what would Israel look like? Would he have effectively cut the strings attached to the relationship between the 2 countries? It sure sounds like he wasn’t going to be a president who was going to treat the Israelis with kid gloves. But again, since his presidency, has any other US president had a spine? Guess it doesn’t really matter since the president doesn’t get to do anything substantive WRT Israel or Palestine except murmur.
Also have to wonder if this letter to Eshkol infuriated the Israelis. I read this paragraph and thought of Iran and when thinking about Iran one can’t help but think about he whose name shall not be typed and his demands, threats, fears, propaganda, war-mongering, etc., towards Iran. He suffers from that illness where he accuses others of having the same demons he himself has.
LOLOL, RoHa !!
The sense of loneliness and impotence that accompanies every Israeli attack varies in how long it lasts. During an assault a thick layer of petroleum coats everything and the act of seeing becomes impossible. We are left only to feel things, viscerally or deeply and only as a reaction.
A year later the sense of bewilderment and muddled cognition has eased. The distance from the facts permits the emergence of vision through clearer thinking.
every word thru this part i was reading with a sense of trepidation as my recall summoned and activated. many times this summer i have recalled/visulized where i was (experiencing) last year – in lebanon – the moments all seemed to last forever. the fear, the knowing whatever i was feeling was magnified a millionfold for those there, experiencing the horrific. and yet, i was significantly alive, awake, engaged, there was no choice in that. the awareness of death, slaughter and survival/hanging on to life by a thread. the children.
so, thank you for your writing ahmed. whatever accompanying impotence (omg i will not easily forget those moments; invasive needles of pain emersion) i knew we were growing deep penetrating mobile and unbreakable roots in rich fertile soil — for who could release this easily. it was a summer that would prove to leave an indelible generational imprint (our youth). and the lives that were lost and families of loved ones — whole families — i have to
believe know were not in vain. so much pain and sacrifice and for how long. the sumud and strength of palestinians and in a twisted way i suppose we can perhaps thank israel for that. it gives me so much faith in humanity knowing palestinians will never give up and knowing the world will come to admire and embrace so much extreme endurance, bravery and integrity.
anyway, as you can see your essay here has taken me back to that time. that time that has marked the changing of the tide — our tipping point. we won’t be going backwards — there’s no surprises going forward in terms of the direction we’re moving.
anyway. thank you ahmed.
The difference is greater than can be accounted for by institutional culture I think.
yes, definitely. the tide — it’s not just a big wave — it’s a tsunami of consciousness. Palestine.
John Kennedy made this strongly worded request to the new Israeli prime minister in July 1963 to allow inspections of Dimona’s nuclear facility. Four months later he was assasinated. No other president since JFK has even broached this subject. Israel is a rogue state, a member of the UN, yet continues to deny access to its facilities. I hope that changes very, very soon. I would also hope that Jonathan Pollard never be released from prison and if he is, that he is never allowed to leave the US.
I agree with your comment..! A fascinating article.
If soon (within 5 years, say), how come we see no celebrations in Palestine
for one thing israel murdered another palestinian teen today. the situation is unbearable catalan.
no excitement about this upcoming change in the Arab press
that’s not true , there are press articles about bds successes.
That they will be 50 when this supposed miracle happens?
it’s logical, not a miracle. and no it will not take 30 years.
i think you’re spamming the thread again catalan.
Who, in the last estimation, cannot leave “Israel”?
OK, I’ll open the guessing game.
Are Zionists worse than Ahab…. ?
I haven’t met Ahab but he hardly could have been any worse than the Zionists. He went after a whale with a small and pathetic crew, not against hogtied Palestinians with the entire might of the US and Europe.
Turn on your sarcasm detector, Kris.
@Bandolero: “Who benefits from a big crime like the Kennedy murders or 9/11 is purely accidential and shall in no way be included in a final judgement on who did it. Who says anything else can only be an anti-semite.”
Bandolero, this post is oddly unlike the other posts in your archive, which are fluently written and critical of Israel. I must be missing something here. You seem to be saying that (1)Jews benefitted from the Kennedy murders and 9/11, but only accidentally, and (2) Jews, unlike others who might have benefitted, should not be included in the group of suspects to be investigated, because (3) it is “anti-semitic” to suspect Jews of crimes? Is that right?
Top 10, all time, Mooser. ^^^ Imho.
That really is the choice these guys face every hour of every day, isn’t it. They never seem to be able to see outside their personal mental cloister, if they try at all.
I just can’t imagine going through life like that. It seems so doggedly uninquisitive, if not unimaginative.
But then, I suppose that’s what Ms. Abarbanel’s article is all about.
I don’t think one has to be decidedly “left wing” in all things to unequivocally condemn Israel for things like last year’s assault on the Gaza Strip or otherwise see things from the Palestinian standpoint in general.
I know that I’m “moderate” or “independent” or some such thing when it comes to the left-right spectrum and I (and my family) have always been pro-Palestinian, because the facts are in tune with being pro-Palestinian as far as this festering , drawn out situation is concerned.
I do think that last summer’s assault on Gaza constituted a “breaking point” for even a lot of people who say that they “don’t know enough” about the situation to really talk about it. I’ve talked to randoms before about just that and they certainly don’t dispute me when I talk about how utterly insane, how ridiculous the Israeli actions were last summer.
It’s really hard for you to get that the Palestinian cause doesn’t need a specific kind of “black activist” who more often then not ends up looking like a ridiculous parody, isn’t it?
I’m 200% pro-Palestinian and I can see that associating with these specific kinds of “black activists” wouldn’t do anything useful or positive for the Palestinian cause.
Kennedy pissed off the Mafia. They thought they had bought a president, only for him to start clamping down on them.
Kennedy wanted to rein in the CIA. The CIA did not like this.
He showed a distinct reluctance to bomb anywhere, which led some of the military to doubt that he was a true, patriotic, American.
He tried to bring U.S. currency under the control of the U.S. government. The private bankers of the Federal Reserve did not share his enthusiasm.
He opposed Israel’s plans for nuclear weapons.
And, of course, he was shagging lots of beautiful women and getting away with it.
So the Kennedy Reduction Programme had plenty of support from very powerful people.
The potential role of Israel in these assassinations is well explored in several books. Perhaps the best is the book by Michael Collins Piper in 1998 entitled “Final Judgment – The Missing Link in the JFK Assassination Conspiracy”. I lived in Louisiana for many years and given my personal experiences, I was particularly impressed with his analysis of the many colorful players from Louisiana and Texas and how they were connected to Meyer Lansky and various international Zionist figures. This book is a must read in my opinion. I found it to be enlightening in many areas even though I had previously read dozens of other books about the JFK assassination. Piper’s theory is that the plot was carried out by Meyer Lansky’s mafia cartel in cooperation with the Mossad and other Zionist forces who were all angry with JFK. The CIA passively supervised the entire operation with the blessing of the military/industrial machine. The Kennedy family feud with organized crime in the liquor business and other areas also plays a role combined with JFK’s obvious lack of zealotry for Israel and his disposition towards peace as opposed to war. The basic revelation in this book is that JFK and his father Joe had a lot of diverse enemies including ZIonists, Mafia, military, political, CIA and industrial. Secondly, Meyer Lansky was more of a overall mafia kingpin than is widely appreciated, with huge international skills and abilities. And thirdly, Lansky was prominently and financially connected to Israel and Zionist networks at the highest level. Piper’s book does not make strident claims, it just explains a lot of connections in great detail and in a new light, that astonished even me. He explores the Mossad, Zionist, Israel connection in a very well informed, sophisticated but uninhibited way.
“Israel doesn’t do such things like terror…”
oh for goodness sake bandolero, get a library card…h
Great observation, Kay24.
Whatever works. It all seems to.
I wonder how many Gaza first-responders were killed trying to evacuate civilians living in the towers who were “double-tap” notified of their imminent execution.
They were idolized here for their bravery. Why not there?
And wasn’t there some fund or other set up to aid the families of these heroes, using the 9/11 perps (or someone’s) frozen assets.
P.S. PUT ON YO’ DANCIN’ SHOES: “Libella Swing” by Parov Stelar
■ Parov Stelar
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Marcus Füreder (born November 27, 1974 in Linz, Upper Austria) better known by his stage name Parov Stelar, is an Austrian musician, producer and DJ. His musical style is based in a combination of jazz, house, electro and breakbeat. He is known as one of the pioneers of electro swing. . . .
SOURCE – link to en.wikipedia.org
Admitted publicly the perps.
I suspect that if you asked an expert in advertising they might say that the “I ❤ Israel” sign actually increases the effectiveness of the “End Israel’s Apartheid & Occupation” sign (for reasons that I will not go into except to say that an incumbent politician always tries to avoid debating a challenger*)! ! !
* SIMILARLY: ● Dueling Tennessee billboards support, oppose Christmas – link to national.deseretnews.com
There were soldiers on the Liberty ?
“Do you trust Bob Dylan?”
I was afraid someone would ask me that. His stance on Israel is confusing (or confused) but he is so far out in front artistically I can’t deny his talent. Same for Paul Simon whom I dislike personally but “Graceland” is a masterpiece in my book despite the exploitation involved.
Cohen has nothing in his catalogue to compare so I can live without him.
CG. My sentiments exactly. I reckon Cohen’s muse is Edward Bernays!
Mooser July 27, 2015, 12:15 pm
“I like your wit.”
|| Mooser: … There has already been a Ziocaine Syndrome Defense in a murder trial (a bartender served a man a non-kosher drink, and he shot ’em. You think I’m kidding?). … ||
I read about that. Apparently imbibing clamato is against his religion, but committing murder isn’t.
“Wow. You acquire citizenship in a country that faces no threats, abandon your birthplace,”
C’mon DS, are you trying to embarrass “Jon s”?
“Who benefits from a big crime like the Kennedy murders or 9/11 is purely accidental and shall in no way be included in a final judgement on who did it. ”
All crimes not immediately solved begin with investigation into who most likely benefited from the crime.
I appreciate your perspective but I don’t think that a superiority complex is at the root of endogamy. My sense of Jewish endogamy is that it’s about preserving the culture. I’ve seen Jews reject converts to Judaism/Jews-by-choice just because they weren’t born Jewish but mostly, it has to do with perpetuating a Jewish family. In recent decades, with the mainstreaming of interfaith marriage with Jewish children, non-Jews are welcomed into the community. I don’t think that in mainstream Reform congregations they are made to feel inferior.
Whether or not perpetuating the culture is a worthy goal, it doesn’t mean that to hold to that practice means you think others are inferior. For instance, most Jews I know who are married to Jews out of conviction would not marry a Jew who had converted to Christianity. It’s not about race or the tribe.
Israelis usually prefer to marry Israelis (or, for Israelis living in Israel they will accept immigrants to Israel who have chosen to assimilate into Israel).
The outsiderness is an identity.
oldgeezer~ I appreciated your entire post very much, but this made me LOL:
“If there’s any left wing in you it’s solely because you ate some bbq’d chicken.”
It’s always young Nazi Germany Era and everybody critical of Israel’s policies and conduct is Hitler. Illinois just made criticism of Israel an economic crime.
catalan, the Amish joke discussion was about who is allowed to make fun of who in the New York Times, an organ of power if there is one in the US.
so by your measure you approve of making fun and/or offending the ethnic religious race gender of the Jewish people rather than the current great respect piously prophets and angels medieval treatment curremtly demanded
this being your opinion what do you think about the efforts to wipe Palestine off the map
a male once was told me all men lie
i thought about this and concluded
that all ‘men’ refuse to lie
that it takes more then the crude basics to make a man
men seek/speak truth
Thanks, Annie~ it is a great article and photos.
(just goes to show how much I miss when I’m away~ it’s so hard to catch up! ;)
The CIA has no intrinsic motivation to commit crimes against America. That motivation comes from Big Money people, who take control of various government agencies. The biggest money guys are the bankers, and war is one of their biggest profit centers.
The Big Money behind Israel has been successfully covering up Israel’s crimes for decades. So they had the media and political control in place to cover up the facts about JFK’s assassination. An enormous amount of information about the assassination has come out subsequent to the Warren Commission report. The evidence is now overwhelming that MANY facts about the assassination were not considered in the Warren Commission investigation, and some intentionally withheld.
We now know the reason the Warren Commission went along with the rushed investigation, which allowed so much information to go unconsidered. They were told the alternative was a likely nuclear war with the Soviets, resulting in tens of millions of Americans dead. It may be no coincidence that a nuclear threat claim was used to launch the war against Iraq, and is now being used in an effort to launch a war against Iran.
Johnson went along with the assassination because he was under investigation for murder in Texas, and as president he could squash that investigation. Johnson then helped the Israelis cover up the USS Liberty attack because they could blackmail him on the JFK assassination.
If this all sounds like a game of thrones, that’s because it is. Democracy, ideally, would put an end to this sh*t. This is why the anti-oligarchy forces are so important in the 2016 election. “Income inequality” is merely the tip of the iceberg.
Mooser, please! I don’t want to see that sort of thing just after breakfast.
Let’s keep this blog decent, and concentrate on politics, unspeakable violence, and underage sex.
“The American people … aren’t so stupid as some on this blog assume. The whole point of an educated populace”
You are really testing the self-restraint of the non-American commenters.
Bandolero, thanks for that.
I suspect the numbers are higher in the other EU member states.
Even Greece will be sending trade reps to Iran after they undo their agreements with Israel.
“Privatizing the Acropolis can be done very effectively and with great benefit to the Greeks. ”
Hell, yes! I’ve been there. The place is a total wreck. It needs a developer to clear the old rubble off the site and build some fancy apartments and a shopping mall. Those lazy Greeks need to get off their arses and start work on the place.
So is annexation your suggestion or not? Pick a position and own it. I’m sure that it’s not likely that you are suggesting the author is a right winger yet you offered it as your solution. In your next post you disclaimed the ownership saying you found it necessary to say to right wingers.
As to Erakat, while you didn’t provide any link or context I’ll be willing to bet he was referring to all Palestinians not just those on the West Bank.
Regardless as you well know any annexation without the agreement of a majority of the legal inhabitants (and Israeli settlers are not legal inhabitants) is a violation of international law.
Trying to paint international crimes as humanitarian, or just, solutions is risible. And I doubt it’s much of a coincidence you’ve been peddling that since it was raised by a number of parties in the run up to the Israeli election.
As to Hamas rockets the simple facts are those rockets didn’t start to fly until Israel started a campaign of extrajudicial killing. Even Israeli security officials acknwledged in interviews that Hamas had abided by the cease fire and acted to enforce it against other resistance groups in the territory. Israeli fears and angers need to be directed against their own government who are conducting an illegal enterprise.
Despite the old saying you can likely put lipstick on a pig but it’s still going to look like a pig. Similarly you can pretend to be liberal or left but proposing additional war crimes which would benefit Israel shows your true bent.
If there’s any left wing in you it’s solely because you ate some bbq’d chicken.
And I thought it was anti-Semitic to say “the Jews killed Jesus”.
“A lover of rumors and innuendo.”
A lover of fine rumors and vintage innuendos. Get it right, Yonah.
Look, at least he’s not asking his “dead friend” to back him up!
Avigail, do more of these.
Real Jews obey the Ten Commandments. All of them.
Just soared from there, RHE.
guess who assassinated Bobby Kennedy? On this day in 1969, Sirhan Sirhan, a Palestinian immigrant born in Jerusalem into a Christian family in 1944, was sentenced to die in the gas chamber after being convicted of killing Sen. Robert F. Kennedy (D-N.Y.).
Read more: link to politico.com
How is it propaganda to ask who benefitted the most from these events? Is putting them in the same paragraph the same as putting the Holocaust and fears about Iran’s nuclear program in the same paragraph? Cui bono? (who benefits?) “is the key forensic question in legal and police investigation to find who has a motive for a crime.”
Cui bono (/kwiː ˈboʊnoʊ/), literally “to whose benefit?”, is a Latin phrase which is still used.
It is the key forensic question in legal and police investigation to find who has a motive for a crime.
It is a Latin adage that is used either to suggest a hidden motive or to indicate that the party responsible for something may not be who it appears at first to be.
Commonly the phrase is used to suggest that the person or people guilty of committing a crime may be found among those who have something to gain, chiefly with an eye toward financial gain. The party that benefits may not always be obvious or may have successfully diverted attention to a scapegoat, for example. link to en.wikipedia.org
the positive social experiences they had in the proximity to a flag of Israel
A lot of support for Christian Zionism, as it is for Zionism, is firmly based on the bedrock religious principle of subvention.
OT. Re: Bob Dylan, you might enjoy the documentary “Searching for Sugar Man.” It’s on Netflix, and it’s wonderful. I watched it twice. The Chairman of Motown Records called Sugar Man (Rodriguez) one of the five greatest artists he ever worked with, and put him above Dylan. The story is really crazy, with unbelievable twists, but heartening in the end. No one in the US knows who he is, but he sold more records in South Africa for 25 years than Elvis Presley and The Beatles combined. And Rodriguez never knew it until just before the turn of the 21st C.
“Israel of long ago was never like this current this false this anti-Israel”
Now, I’m very ignorant of both the Old and New Testament, but if I recall, there was a lot of trouble in the Old Testament over keeping the Jews in line, and a lot of contention. Lotta problems with false Gods, stuff like that. Golden Calf-ism made inroads among the community. Big problems formulating a suitable type of political-religious synthesis. Life was no bed of charoses for the Ancient Israelites.
Well, to be fair, one kid will turn into a reliable voter for the pro-patrician-class right-wing parties, while the other will not: it’s logical that the praetorian guard favor one of the praetors’ future retainers.
“I think history testifies persuasively that we are the Chosen People,”
Sure, sure, DS, indubitably! Absolutely, without a doubt, we Jews is Chosen! Unfortunately, the question still remains: Chosen for what, exactly?!
Tears the sign down.
Is the whole world playing to/nurturing lynch mobs and going caveman?
“semitic” refers originally to a group of related middle eastern languages, including Arabic, Hebrew and many others, and has come to be applied to the ethnic groups speaking those languages. “
And is it accurate in that? Are they indeed related, as the man who invented the term “Semitic” (“Semitic” not ‘antisemitism’, different guy, wasn’t it?) thought, and in the way he thought?
Of course, as long as we know who we mean when we say “Semitic” it really doesn’t matter how it started out, if it gained a useful meaning.
“As an atheist, I can live with that view.”
You are a braver person than me (Which, I freely asseverate, is not hard to be. My timidity is legendary), much braver.
If I was an atheist, I would be much too scared to admit it. If the belief in God is a delusion, it is such a big and powerful delusion that to deny it can be life-threatening. If God doesn’t exist, and religious people kill over Him they are some seriously ill mofo’s. Damned if I’ll be the one to cross those crazy violent bastards. So as I say, it’s a good thing I’m not an atheist, cause I’d be to scared to admit it, and I’d have to live with that.
Yes, I think that is the real story:
Democrats split 75 to 17 (pro Iran deal)
To me it looks like Bibi and AIPAC are heading for a major trainwreck likely to result in serious permament damage to the power of the Israeli lobby.
When Bibi, Israel and AIPAC now go against the deal as they do, they will very likely transform US support for Israel into a partisan political football. That will almost inevitably bring big discussions on long tabooed subjects regarding Israel to public attention in the US like the colonial-style law making it a duty for a US president to guarantee Israels QME. And finally Israel and AIPAC will lose big, because when the Democrats will single out Republicans on following a foreign leader and put up slogan like “When Americans made huge sacrifices fore a revolution against being a British colony, they did it not done to be subjugated by another country some time later – even if it’s a good friend like Israel. Vote American, Vote Democrat” the Republicans will have a hard time to maintain their pattern of following Bibi on whatever he does.
I can already see the lobby crashing before my eye.
“And you wonder why the persons of conscience throughout the world cringe at the mention of Netanyahu’s war.”
The massacre that 95% Israeli supported/celebrated.
Feedback from German polls regarding the Iran deal
YouGov 18/7/2015: Majority of 63% of Germans welcomes Iran deal, while 18% oppose it
Forsa 24/7/2015: Majority of 85% of Germans welcomes improved relations with Iran, 70% want more engagement from German business in Iran
Dear German Lefty
i hope all the wonders & Blessings of life
fill to overflowing the lives of you & all you meet
i’m sorry about my reply to your post
it was a poor effort on my part
i hope it doesn’t put a wall between us/our posts
Wow! Major General Hacohen openly admits to deliberately and during the last hours of Operation Protective Edge inflicting massive civilian destruction and damage in the magnitude of 9/11, which itself was decried across the world as one of the worst terrorist acts committed in history. The analogy itself underscores the significance of the matter – in order to attain high levels of sheer terror among a civilian population, inflict random but disproportionate acts of death and destruction – defined within the Israeli lexicon as the Dahiya Doctrine.
General Hacohen, it was these acts, as were acts such as the deliberate seeding of southern Lebanon with cluster bombs in the last hours of the Lebanese war, that have so inflamed world opinion against Israel’s policies of war. Those towers stand as a talisman and a symbol of Israel’s total disregard for the civilian lives of non-Jewish persons, the dehumanization of labeling these actions as “mowing the grass” and, labeling as “war” a situation that the majority of on lookers believe was orchestrated by Benyamin Netanyahu to bolster his image as a “tough guy” thereby boosting his election chances. Over 2,000 died, the majority of whom were civilians – children, women, the elderly. Additional thousands were gravely disabled. None could flee owing to the Israeli siege – more ordnance was rained down on these imprisoned people than in the famed bombing of Dresden in World War II.
Reflect sir – your symbol and significance analogy tracks a 51 day operation, which you yourself define, albeit indirectly, as the terrorist slaughter (or is it defined as a massacre?) of more than 2,000 human beings. And you wonder why the persons of conscience throughout the world cringe at the mention of Netanyahu’s war.
Who benefits from a big crime like the Kennedy murders or 9/11 is purely accidential and shall in no way be included in a final judgement on who did it. Who says anything else can only be an anti-semite. Just look at Operation Susannah or the USS Liberty to see how these anti-semitic conspiracy terrorists work to delegitimize the single and only jewish state on earth.
That is, while the true role of the sole Jewish State is totally different. Israel doesn’t do such things like terror, but provides valuable intelligence on significant acts of terror like the valuable intelligence provided by Israeli intelligence proving that the Syrian government perpetrated the Ghouta chemical attack, to which POTUS almost responded by bombing Syria:
But than POTUS decided otherwise and made the Chemical deal with the Syrian government and the Iran deal instead, thereby displeasing Israel. So he thanked Israel for what she does.
“and it is a verse of which christians ought to be ashamed and not proud.”
Never, ever follow Yonah through the no-leash area or a cow-pasture. Yonah has a knack for finding the biggest pile, and jumping in with both feet.
That’s it, Yonah, you tell the Gentiles about religious verses of which they “should be ashamed”. You do that. I can’t think of a more productive thing to do.
Yonah, I know, maybe we should change the old saying to fit you: “People who live in glass houses should break all the windows, that’ll show ’em!”.
Yup, both feet, and jumps around in it. Wouldn’t be so bad if he didn’t have a habit of throwing so much of it around….
Providing succour to Holocaust deniers then hophmi by inflating the number of dead. It is generally accepted that only six million Jews were murdered. And please don’t insult my intelligence by replying that six million is most of eleven million.
Shorts, sandals-and-socks are “Jewish traditional clothing”? Well, they are just right for hanging out singing old Beach boys songs…
“Christians under pressure: from bigotry at school to imprisonment and murder
Faith leaders warn of a rise in persecution around the world. Here we focus on four countries where Christian believers face official discrimination and threats of attacks by militants – sometimes at the same time …”
And they list Egypt, Pakistan, China, and wait for it…
“The Holy Land: ‘They came in the night’
The smell of burning still lingers in the Church of the Multiplication on the shores of the Sea of Galilee.
The target of an arson attack last month by suspected Jewish extremists – three people are under arrest – the church’s roof is missing from several rooms. Walls are scorched and the wooden doors, where the arsonists laid their fires, are charred black.
Nearby, in a newer annex built by the Benedictine order that cares for the church and monastery, the attackers painted graffiti on the wall calling for the “destruction of false idols” – part of a Jewish prayer known as the Aleinu.
“They came in the middle of the night,” said Fr Matthias, one of the Benedictine monks. “We’re not sure if they came by boat or climbed over the wall. We think there must have been at least three of them because they lit the fire in two places while someone else painted on the wall.”
Built in the 1890s on land bought by an association of German Catholic dioceses as a place of pilgrimage to the lake where Jesus is said to have multiplied five loaves and two fishes to feed 5,000 people, it is not the first time the monastery has come under attack.
Just over a year ago, pilgrims praying by the lake had stones thrown at them by a group of ultra-orthodox youths. In Jerusalem, the Church of the Dormition, to which the monastery is attached, was also attacked by an arsonist.
According to a statement from the Council of Religious Institutions of the Holy Land, which includes churches as well as the chief rabbinate and the Islamic waqf: “Since December 2009, about 43 churches and mosques were torched or desecrated, yet not a single person has been prosecuted by the authorities.”
While Christians across the Middle East have come increasingly under assault in recent years – most often by jihadis – the attacks in the Holy Land itself, whose Christian population is dwindling, have a particular resonance.
“It is an unprecedented phenomenon in our experience,” said Matthias, visibly angry. The attack on his church was condemned by Israel’s president, Reuven Rivlin, and the prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, who said:
“Freedom of worship in Israel is one of the foundation stones of our values and is protected by law. We will exercise the full weight of the law with those responsible for this criminal act.”
Now the five monks have hired a security guard to patrol the monastery.
Matthias was careful to distinguish between the majority of Israelis and those behind recent attacks on churches, but echoed a concern among many Christian leaders here that not enough was being done by the Israeli authorities to crack down on the extremist settlers most often linked to the attacks.
“We are really angry. We feel as though not enough is being done by the authorities to find the people behind these attacks. We need to put it in perspective. We know this isn’t Syria, where Christians are frightened for their lives, but what we are asking, as a first priority, is that they bring them to justice so no one else will be inspired to do this kind of thing.””
Kurtzer also questioned the logic of critics who insist that Iran wouldn’t necessarily react in a provocative way if Washington were unable to implement the deal due to congressional rejection. The agreement requires Tehran to drastically reduce the number of its working centrifuges and ship out almost all of its enriched uranium stockpile so that it would be at least one year from nuclear “break-out” status. But in the event of congressional rejection, Kurtzer predicted that Iran would almost certainly retain its current capability of achieving “break-out” in two months or less. “That’s the part [of the criticism of the deal] that makes no sense to anybody looking at the agreement,” he said.
Unfortunately neocons still take American stupidities for granted. They take the poor attention span for granted.
Neocons will say Iran will cheat or ignore or attack depending on what at a given time will suit their arguments . But next moment when they are asked that Iran most surely would do all those if US forsakes negotiations and kills the deals, they try to emphasize that fear- stricken Iran wouldn’t dare to do any of those .
They had offered similar arguments that Iraq had nukes and mushroom cloud was rising on the horizon and Iraq would strike but Iraq would do none of those if we attacked him first.
RHE- Are you greater than the prophet Elijah? When the prophet Elijah scorned Ahab he did not deny that he was Jewish. (anachronism: Ahab was not from Judea, but from Israel) He called him many bad names but he didn’t deny he was Jewish. Are Zionists worse than Ahab or are you greater than elijah?
Anyone remember this from last year?
“Tzipi Livni is Israel’s Justice Minister. Five years ago she was afraid to travel because of potential international prosecution for war crimes. But she’s on vacation in a Greek-speaking land, according to her Facebook page. Ofer Neiman translates:
Tzipi Livni goes on vacation (apparently in Greece, maybe Cyprus), and discovers a “horrible” sign saying “Free Palestine “, with the names of Palestinian cities (Gaza, Jenin, Nablus and Hebron). She says: “I still managed to tear a part of the sign, but it is evident more than ever that the battle ahead of us is in the international arena. We must act anywhere in the world to make it clear who here is the terrorist, and who is the state defending its citizens from terror”.
– See more at: link to mondoweiss.net
Somebody should poll the citizens other members of the P5+1 and show the republicans that their efforts will only harm their own countrymen/women.The numbers in Russia/china/France/Britain/Germany and the balance of the EU will be far greater in favour of the deal.That should make Addled son and Saban think twice before they bet on a losing horse.But I hope they they throw their ill gotten gains down the drain.