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I just love the idea that the first, last, and only time that Israel stated its borders was on May 15 and that it stated its borders were those of UNGA-181. (Of course, Israel later claimed to annex bits of occupied territory such as Golan Heights and East Jerusalem. Annexing would seem to indicate a change of borders. However, for waheter it’s worth, UNSC said all the annexing was null and void.)
Now, hem, hem, I have long suggested that Israel should, in any workable :: “just and lasting” :: peace, fall back onto a smaller territory than that which it controlled on June 1, 1967. Of course I thought that that “control” was the same as its “borders”. Now I know different. OTOH, a lot of countries have seemed to think that Israel’s borders were fixed as the June 1, 1967 control-borders. Maybe some of the documents of “recognition” of Israel, even the USA’s, can be interpreted to support the borders-as-in-181 thesis. International lawyers, please step up to the plate to explain if recognition goes with formal documents only or goes with usages, customs, the flow of history, etc.
I recommend to Israel the benefits to it of falling back onto its declared territory, that is, UNGA-181. Why? Because in that case, enabling a PRoR (which might one day be required) would result in a smaller inflow of Palestinians into Israel — that is, only those refugees who came from Israel-181 woulr return to Isrfael-181, the rest returning to (new, smaller) Palestine.
“It’s the Wizard of (amos) Oz, it’s the march of folly, it’s a change in the wind, it’s the waters of March”
You are amazing seafoid!
Thank you Lara Kiswani, and all of the devoted activists of the campaign to end the injustice!
“We will insist on our rights and on our obligation to defend our capital,” said Netanyahu -”
Must be nice to declare a disputed place your capital, start building more and more illegal settlements, universities, and everything needed for a capital, and pretend it is so, even though the entire world including the US has still not recognized it. Only in zio-delusional land such stupidity is accepted.
The parasites of the ME.
Powerful stuff bornajoo.
I often think about how much Israelis lose out on by growing up in a dysfunctional society
The unwashed takes on new meaning :-)
Unwashing is a traumatic experience that brings into question a lot of things in a lot of places people fear to go.
When one’s parents, brothers, sisters, cousins, Rabbi, teachers, political leaders have been brainwashed over generations, who does one turn to, trust, believe, believe in and; turning back once you’ve accepted the first unwashed truth is a betrayal of one’s self. One can see self betrayal in the inability of some folk to look you in the eye.
Zionistas will never admit anything, complete denial is necessary to keep those loose ends away from prying eyes and tugging fingers. Tug any of the loose ends and it will lead to a complete breakdown in the Israeli propaganda narrative. Example …
“We appeal – in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months – to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions”
Are we to believe the people who drafted the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel were actually un-aware of Plan Dalet under which Arab inhabitants of what would become Israel were being cleansed?
Let’s tug at this same loose thread … The Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel were being invited to stay in the Declaration. Can’t be denied. A few weeks later, if the same number of Arabs who fled the violence of war were to return, they’d be a demographic threat. It simply doesn’t add up!
Same loose thread .. Right of Return .. the Israeli demand for a Peace Treaty with Palestine before allowing any Right of Return at all. Remember, they are the “Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel “ who fled. I.e., Israelis!
Think about it … What would a peace treaty with Palestine mean for them if they are NOT citizens of Palestine?
None of it adds up
Yonah maybe your positive feelings wrt “religion and nationalism” would evolve if you spent a bit of time on a site like “The Occidental Observer”. While being part of an ethno-religious in-group wrt zionism and Jewishness might be all warm and fuzzy, on that site you would be the out-group. There you might discover an ambivalent or negative attitude towards “religion and nationalism” in yourself! Unless it’s confined just to other peoples ethno-religious nationalism. Anyhow, it could give you an inkling of why most people here tend towards negative opinions of it.
>> hellsbells @ October 24, 2014, 4:03 am
+1 to that.
The Harvard Divest folks (as we all) should also be alarmed by a non-ethical concern: that their university’s (or other) investments are to some (probably large, or what’s the fuss about?) extent invested in fossil fuels at a moment when those investments can be expected to lose value as anti-climate-change activity “fires up” (PtP).
As matters stand corporations have a right to exist and to do legal business, and citizens have a right to protest and to do legal politics. BDS and Divest are politics. Nothing in them about right-to-exist of corporations, nations, etc. (Indeed, BDS seeks a rights-respecting Israel, an Israel that is as vastly transformed from its present state as S.A. is from its Apartheid past.)
Israel is indeed a producer of terrorism. It does not limit its activity to waving flags, however, but does its own (severe) violence against Palestinians and others and has done so for 66 years.
Waving a Palestinian flag may be a provocation (to Zios) but is (IMO) more like speech than like action and is certainly not violence. Punching the flag waver is violence and is, in this case I’d argue, a “hate crime”.
Protecting the violent and waving-off the injured is standard behavior for police forces which see themselves as in the business of  protecting status quo and protecting the rich and powerful rather than  enforcing the law and preventing crime. (These are actually different jobs, and only  makes sense for a truly public-serving police force.) NYPD, is this you?
Thanks for responding. I think it’s important that we get your opinion on these issues and even those that oppose the views of most of the people on MW. I tend to agree with the majority view on MW because their views match my own direct experiences. Hence why I immediately felt at home and comfortable on the MW site. I’m very new to blogging and any kind of political activity and until now have confined my efforts to trying to change the minds of friends, family and acquaintances, most of them Jewish, but not all.
I also feel that you are someone who can and may eventually be able to drop the last remaining mental barriers you have which stop you from accepting the actual reality of the situation. You remind me of my oldest brother and not that long ago he was where you are now but he finally came around!
Yes let’s focus on the Israeli self identification in that poll and thanks for sending the article from 972.
That same elder brother has 4 kids ALL of them ardent hard core Zionists and even scarier to me than the youth I met in Israel. How did this happen? Well even though I argued for many years until my face was blue my brother and his Israeli wife were determined to send their kids to a Jewish faith school in London which I was completely opposed to. So it was obvious to me what was going to happen, and it did. These 4 kids are impossible to speak or argue with. They only have Jewish friends, they are completely brainwashed and they are terrifying people. Only the older one, thankfully, is a bit more wordly and has other friends except hard core Jewish zionist ones. They absolutely hate my guts and wish I was dead simply for not sharing their views and I’m not exaggerating. When the most recent slaughter in Gaza was taking place they were calling for the total death and destruction of ALL ARABS everywhere, not only the Palestinians. They have all been on the indoctrination program in Auschwitz and other places and they are no different to the Hitler Youth. I find it all completely sickening.
Israeli society is continually fed a cocktail of fear, paranoia and racial hatred by successive right wing governments and it’s absolutely no surprise to me that a whole load of people on the left have moved to the right and those who were on the right are moving further to the extreme right. Netanyahu, Bennett, Lieberman, Russian immigrants, American settlers are all spewing their poison out all over what is already a sick and mentally damaged society. And these people have Guardianship over millions of poor, defenseless and completely innocent people, unless you call fighting for dignity and freedom a crime?
I would like to once again return to the example of my 17 year old cousin who was just here visiting for 2 weeks. She is a typical example and representation of a huge swathe of Israeli youth. What she shows is just how effective the brainwashing program actually is. She as so right wing, so racist, so intolerant, so paranoid, so fearful and so nationalistic it was impossible to even think about bringing her back from the abyss where she now stands. And this is the future generation that is supposedly going to live side by side in peace with the Palestinians?? At least with some of the older generation, as we saw in the The Gatekeepers, there was a realisation that none of the brutal oppressive policies have actually worked and peace and trust was the only long term solution. The fascist right wingers have now sabotaged any chance of that well in advance by producing new and more advanced right wing prototype youths straight from the hasbara factory pre programmed to hate and dehumanise even more than before
So we have reached the stage where we should all forget any idea that any change will come from within Israel that will be strong enough to finally relieve the prolonged suffering and injustice to the Palestinians. That’s never going to happen. It will only happen by outside pressure and that’s where I will focus my efforts.
The key to the whole issue in my opinion is mainstream opinion in the USA which is where you live
You say that your opinions are irrelevant to that mainstream opinion but I know that just from the small amount of headache I’ve been giving certain people here that it all does make a difference. Every email and letter you write does make a difference. It’s one more reply that has to be given and it’s another reminder that not everyone agrees. I also believe that as Jews our opinions may carry a bit more weight and we have more chance of dodging the accusation of anti semitism
After presiding over a summer war that cost Israel its highest soldier casualties since June 1967 – realy?
talknic is right on this one, Michelle. I think what you have in mind is that Palestine should receive financial compensation for the loss of the stolen land. They certainly have the right to ask for that, but they have a greater need for territory than money, and it would also be more just for them to receive territory in exchange for territory. Did you read the Note from Truman to Ben-Gurion in 1949 [ link to digicoll.library.wisc.edu He expressed very strongly the need for territorial compensation.
God Bless you.
When Ronald Reagan was president, he called the Soviet Union an “evil empire.” Did he say it didn’t have a “right to exist”? No, that wasn’t part of the debate. Even the Soviet Union’s leaders didn’t say it had a “right to exist.” In 1991, new leaders there decided to disband the Soviet Union. They didn’t say it had no “right to exist”, and their opponents who wanted to maintain the Soviet Union didn’t defend their position by saying that it had a “right to exist”. When I hear people speaking of “Israel’s right to exist”, I ask them whether or not the Soviet Union or Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia ever had a “right to exist”, and when and whether those countries lost that right. I never get a coherent answer, and it becomes obvious that they’ve never thought of the general concept of a country’s “right to exist”; they’re just repeating a pro-Israel slogan because it tests well in focus groups.
Oops. My apologies Dr. Fincham.
And with ever comment the noisy video restarts. YUCK!
Please don’t insert self starting videos. They are grossly annoying when the sound comes on a full volume in a house where people are asleep. Make a damn policy NOT to do this!
@ michelle “in some places when ‘you’ buy property
the actual land is not part of the sale, (i learned this while house hunting)
seems like the Palestines might not need to give up any ownership
just collect a land rent”
Land is ‘real estate’ for which individuals or companies or institutions hold some form of deed. ‘real estate’ exists in the ‘territory’ of states. For example Chinese companies can and do own real estate in Australia, they have no territorial or citizenship rights what so ever.
Territory belongs to all the legitimate citizens of that territory whether they own ‘real estate’ rent or lease real estate or are homeless and live under a bridge.
The Palestinians do not have to show deeds to real estate to prove the territory is Palestinian. It is Palestinian by default of what was not proclaimed as or recognized as Israel, what has never been legally annexed to Israel and what was not the territory of the surrounding Arab states.
triple blush. i probably shouldn’t have open that door. and thank you.;)
Petlak teaches a class on “why the Cossacks were right in hindsight even though very Jews realised it at the time”
“But I can identify as Jewish without ever stepping foot in Historic Palestine. I am a Jew that stands in solidarity with the Palestinians’ right to self-determination. I am a Jew who believes in human rights and equality for all. I am a Jew who sees the opportunity to voice a call for human rights by Palestinian Civil Society.”
Are these Jewish traits exclusively? Of course not. I am a little exhausted by the “I’m a Jew who……” part, as if your empathy and compassion when you see others suffering is somehow exceptional because you’re a Jew. It isn’t. That’s what bothers me a lot about throwing the “I’m a Jew who…” bit into the conversation over an over again. Who cares? It sounds to me more like “I’m a Jew. My people have suffered horribly throughout history and most recently with the holocaust. Therefore for Me to have empathy for others is exceptional.” No it isn’t. This is still clinging to that “chosenness” bit that is bullshit. If you care about the situation of others, it shouldn’t be because your a Jew or inspite of the fact that your a Jew, but that you see yourself as part of the big picture, the world and the human family.
Sick and tired of the Jews for this, Christians for that, Muslims for this, etc. I’m tired of labels.
@ David Gerald Fincham
//“The fact that GoI has “fully integrated” Palestinian land means nothing about who has a moral and legal claim on it.”//
“Yes it does. The Israeli citizens living in the “fully integrated land” have the same human rights as every one else”
They can have those rights in the country to which they are citizens. It is NORMAL for people who’re not the citizens of a country and who’re there without the express permission of that country, to be deported and their assets frozen pending clarification of legalities
“It is not their fault that the Israeli government took that land from another people 66 years ago. “
It’s not today’s German citizens fault that Hitler came to power. Germany has paid and paid and paid and is still paying with TODAY’s German taxpayers money.
Israel TODAY is STILL illegally acquiring Palestinian territory. TODAY’s Israeli govt is encouraging illegal settlers, illegally building more in non-Israeli territory. Israelis TODAY elected TODAY’s Govt!
“They cannot legally be driven from their homes”
Nonsense. Illegal aliens are deported. It’s NORMAL.
” nor can a piece of territory legally be transferred from one sovereignty to another without the agreement of a majority of its residents. “
To be precise , without the agreement of a majority of its legitimate citizens. Sans illegal settlers!
“That is why I say Palestine should be given territory (empty as far as possible) in the Negev as compensation for the territory which was stolen from it in 1948-49″
Why? Give Israelis illegally in Palestinian territory a choice, become Palestinian citizens or go live in Israel. There is no need for ANY land/territorial swaps.
@ 666 “anddddddd the “secret documents” are available to you courtesy of “talknic””
Courtesy of the Truman Library, the UN, even the Knesset actually. Are the documents incorrect? Don’t actually exist? I’ll await your honest reply……….. Thx
“but you only talk about israel”
Correct. Only Israel proclaimed its borders. Only Israel has been lying about its borders, deceiving Israelis for generations, illegally selling them non-Israeli territory
Go whine to the Zionist Federation, Jewish Agency and their propagandists who try to keep the truth from being known link to en.wikipedia.org
“so what were the arab declarations at the time for a state “
For the same reason Israel wasn’t declared an independent state while the British occupied Palestine under the LoN Mandate for Palestine, the Arab State could not have been declared independent while Jewish forces occupied territory slated for the Arab State.
By 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) Jewish forces under Plan Dalet, were occupying non-Israeli territory. They’ve never left BTW. So although Palestine can and has declared a state and that state has been recognized by the majority of the Comity of Nations and by certain UN bodies, it is still impossible for Palestine to declare Independent Statehood because it is not independent of Israeli occupation.
Never the less the Arab statements were the same as they were in 1922. Very reasonable, within the Law and reflective of the League of Nations Covenant. A democratic unity state with equal rights and freedom of religion.
“we know that the mandate had ended but surely arab leaders must have wanted their own state ?”
Uh? They had their own state, Palestine. The British occupied it as trustees under the LoN Mandate for Palestine.
The state existed, only recognition was provisional on that state gaining independence. link to avalon.law.yale.edu
It was a state in which Jewish folk could immigrate, achieve Palestinian citizenship, buy land and settle anywhere in the Jewish People’s historic homeland. link to avalon.law.yale.edu
Their state, Palestine, was partitioned without their being asked.
“did all these declarations actually exist in a vacumn”
Certainly not. They actually exist in the official records of the US, the UN/UNSC, British Hansard and the Knesset etc. Quite easy to find if you know they exist. But the Israeli Govt and education system won’t tell you they do.
I suggest you take your pathetic whining to the Jewish Agency, Zionist Federation/Movement and Israeli Govt. They’re the folk who’ve been duping Jewish folk with their lies!
Personally speaking I think he’d look a lot better if he looked like you.
Sorry. Just a guy at heart ;)
i just have to ask, could Junot Díaz even be anymore handsome? it’s hard to
concentrate stop looking.
sorry. just a girl at heart.
This story is a clear illustration of the reasons for the failure of the Palestine solidarity movement. Its members really seem to think they can use left-wing morality to liberate the Palestinians. “The New York City Palestine Solidarity network “strongly condemn[ed] anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and all forms of racism,” noting that “phony accusations of anti-Semitism undermine and take lightly the seriousness and danger of true anti-Semitism.””. Why on earth would a Palestine solidarity network care about “anti-Semitism”?
nice story ty for sharing
seems like we’re in this life to find ourselves
and more often than not we must first lose ourselves
When activism comes to the States the bots have obviously lost their hasbara mojo.
It’s just a matter of time now.
They don’t have the mass of people behind them. They are just a well organized minority.
They need darkness to function. خلص
It’s the Wizard of (amos) Oz, it’s the march of folly, it’s a change in the wind, it’s the waters of March
É pau é pedra
É o fim do caminho
É um resto de toco
É um pouco sozinho…
É madeira de vento
Tombo da ribanceira
É um mistério profundo
É o queira ou não queira…
It is wood, it is stone
It is the end of the way
It is the rest of a bole
It is a bit in loneliness
It is madeira de vento
The fall of the bluff
It is a profound mystery
It is the “want it or not want it”
might not apply but in some places when ‘you’ buy property
the actual land is not part of the sale, (i learned this while house hunting)
seems like the Palestines might not need to give up any ownership
just collect a land rent
sure would be nice just to know that they are free and are treated fair by their neighbors
by your own measure the right of return is in favor of the Palestine people
who were removed from their ancest. lands through an illegal sovereignty
Did you get my memo? Don’t be so optimistic about the changing off the guard. Yeah, young Americans are becoming more liberal, but not so with younger Israelis. I just listened to a talk by Fr. McGarry who studied at Hebrew University years ago and said he came to IP from “the Jewish side” and started a dialogue group. The interviewer asked him, with a glint of hope, whether young people there are more interested in dialogue, and he was clear, unfortunately, that it’s the opposite:
(around min 10)
link to vimeo.com
Petlakh teaches at the SAME Hunter College that forced Israeli policy critic Norman Finkelstein…
RE: “United Jerusalem was – and will remain – Israel’s eternal capital. All attempts to attack its residents will be met with a very sharp reaction” ~ Netanyahu (speaking yesterday after the attack)
MY COMMENT: Wednesday’s attack by al-Shaludi was truly a godsend for Netanyahu!
RE: “On the evening of October 7th, after a basketball game between the Brooklyn Nets and the Israeli team Maccabi Electra Tel Aviv at Barclays Center in Brooklyn, Palestinian-American Nerdeen Kiswani was attacked by a group of Maccabi Electra fans. The 20-year-old Hunter College student was punched in the stomach, and a Palestinian flag was torn from her hands. “ ~ Ben Norton
AS TO THIS TYPE OF “PROTO-NAZISM”, SEE: “Met Protest Over ‘Klinghoffer'; Proto-Nazism on Exhibition”, by Norman Pollack, CounterPunch.org, October 22, 2014
[EXCERPT] Israel’s policies and actions toward the Palestinians has been a principal incitement of international terrorism. To say that, does not excuse the latter, but does help to explain it. Had Israel chosen a different path from its founding (Arno Mayer’s Ploughshares into Swords records in detail the events of 1945-48 demonstrating the Zionist paradigm of ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Arab population, with few dissenting voices, such as Martin Buber and Judah Magnes), one can speculate that the historical outcome would have been a different spirit and structure of the Middle East, far more promoting of Jewish security certainly than in the present. The irony of history: authoritarianism feeds upon itself, force against force, hatred fully reciprocated. The original fault lies with a totalitarian Zionism which refused to credit the humanity of those it sought to displace, rather than live peacefully among—hubris hiding behind the fig leaf of providing a refuge for the victims of the Holocaust.
The Holocaust was the systematic execution voicing World Evil, mercilessly planned and carried out on a hitherto unknown scale of human depravity. Survivors and descendants would bear the scars. Yet rather than engender compassion embracing the whole of humanity and life itself, the reaction was that of vengeance, of seeking power, however ruthless the consequences, as a self-protective shield with the inscription, “Never again”. At first, that seemed natural, and even commanded world respect following World War II. But the psychology of suffering was so intense as though breaking into another realm, what I am calling the introjection of the mentality of the Nazi executioner, perhaps not even realizing it.
How otherwise view the history of modern Israel with respect to its own militarism, cult of superiority, reactionary stance in world politics, discouragement of internal dissent, and, obviously, treatment of the Palestinians, an Occupation not unlike what Europe experienced decades earlier? Humiliation, check-points, bulldozers, terrorist-like arrests in the middle of the night, the ever-present blockade, all-in-all a studied effort at imposing degradation on a people, the better (presumably) to enforce social control.
From IDF shootings of adolescents to the scene in New York, Monday, October 20, at the Metropolitan Opera is a straight-line projection, nominally, to protest the performance of John Adams’s “Klinghoffer,” but far more, having nothing to do with the opera, rising to the occasion of absolutist self-justification of all Israel has done and everything it stands for. For the most part, world Jewry supports that record and finds only goodness in Israel, making Judaism and Israel indissoluble in meaning and moral value. There I disagree strongly. Israel is not Judaism, and, indeed, is fast becoming a curse on Judaism, by its wanton killings, arrogance, willingness to cause universal calamity to satisfy its policies. Bomb Iran. Bomb Assad. Bomb, bomb, bomb, power stations, water treatment plants, schools, shelters. Invincibility, the national disease. And AIPAC, hosannas to the heavens—American Jewry fearful of its own shadow, not from external forces, but congregational unanimity lest one be declared the Self-Hating Jew. . .
ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to counterpunch.org
On second 39 of the video, if you freeze the video at the right instant you can get a good view of the guy who snatches the flag. I have my opinion of who it looks like-Petlakh-does anyone agree? There are lots of pictures of him on Google.
“I also feel irrelevant to the discussion here at MW, where the editors and most commenters have an ambivalent or a negative attitude towards religion and nationalism including almost all manifestations of Jewishness that are not universal in their essence”
Did you just say you would feel relevant to the discussion at a site where an unambivalent positive attitude towards religious nationalism includes almost all manifestations of Judaism that are supremacist in their essence? Okay, sure.
Actually Petlakh’s actions could be construed as criminal. Punching a woman in the stomach is a felony; in concert with stealing her Palestinian flag as well as affiliation with sexually threatening associates, this could well rise the the level of a hate crime. Finally, the made up story that he was himself a victim of a hate crime could be construed as obstruction of justice. I believe most tenure contracts have clauses allowing dismissal for felony conviction. And moral turpitude. Both appear operative here. I hope Mondoweiss will continue to publicize this case, following from arraignment to trial and to closely monitor Hunter college’s action. Inquiring minds would wonder if Petlakh would not have known who she was given that she is also a Palestinian activist. Also, one wonders about the YMHA response – is this man their chosen role model for Jewish youth?
link to unz.com
ADL is enlisting the cyber media to stop speech – Hate Speech.
It is amazing pure simple ,Orweillan .
But are these guys are looking into the abyss and trying to draw the rest with them?
The empire on way out really becomes very repressive,arrogant,and incoherent . The movement of any nature under the burden of reality can die in same fashion. The dirty tricks,the lies the suppression the monolithic ramblings from the rowdy feckless crowd to the more sober serene places adorned by politicians and media show the death of the Zionism .
What has happened in 13 yrs? PNAC or AEI or JINSA did not expect history be created in this direction. Their dream of Israel transcending the reality and create a new reality of its choice has died years ago ,just like American dream of control over the events in ME . The more they mop the floor, more wastes appears . Is that frustration evident here? An academic going ballistic out in the open against his own student tells something is rotting and it is rotting from head.
Has it ever happened anywhere else in the world including in Na8 Germany!
” Yes, there is a widespread tendency to dehumanize the Palestinians.”
Thank God they don’t take it as far as, you know, actually killing them! Just call them names a lot.
So let me get this right, Jackdaw. In the non-anti-Semitic version of the opera, Klinghoffer defeats the terrorists, throws them in the brig, and single-hands the ship back to port?
I agree w you Rusty. It’s a bizarre standard. I dont remember hearing it in connection with South Africa.
“Police Spokesperson Inspector Micky Rosenfeld who did not have specific details qualified that the arrests and questioning of family members was “Just general standard procedure”
Right, cuz we all remember how they arrested the families of Abu Khdair’s killers.
I’d venture to guess that most supporters of BDS against energy companies would not argue that they have no right to exist, but no right to continue operating as they have been, not just in predatory capitalist habits, but in anti-environmental mindset and practices that are contributing to our planet’s heading fullspeed into a global warming crisis.
I’d also assert that those who condemned apartheid in the 80s did not claim that a country called South Africa had no right to exist, but that it had no right to enforce a system which deprived its citizens of rights based on race and ethnicity.
bornajoo- Yes, there is propaganda, group think, at play in Israel. Yes, there is a widespread tendency to dehumanize the Palestinians. This tendency is too easy to fall into in much of Israeli society.
Rather than attack this head on, let me cite this article from 972,
link to 972mag.com
Although the prime topic of the article is the rejection by most Jewish Israelis of the idea of a full withdrawal to the 67 lines, I would like to focus on the self identification of Israelis in the poll. we are told that of the 505 Jewish Israeli people polled, 304 identified as right wingers, 125 as centrists and 68 as leftists, or approximately 60% right, 25% center and 13.5% left wingers.
Why do you think these people ended up with those political “allegiances”? I would assume that for the most part, people tended to agree with their families or peer groups. I’m sure there were those who started out to the left and then became more right wing and there were those who started out to the right and then become more left wing.
Would i call all those who identify as right wing as being more easily brainwashed than those who identify as center or left wing? No. Certainly those who come from right wing and stayed right wing, their environment influenced them to maintain a certain attitude and certainly those who come from the left wing and stayed left wing were also influenced by their environment.
Both you and I spent most of our formative years outside of Israel and so the environment of our backgrounds was not dictated by a school curriculum of the mandated sort that exists in Israel. But nonetheless, we were both influenced by schools, peers and families.
In the immediate aftermath of the Yom Kippur War I would have referred to myself as a right winger and for example when the disengagement agreement of 75 was signed by rabin, i was opposed. by the time of the sadat visit to israel in 77 i was supportive of the peace effort and very pleased with the camp david accords and envisioned the need to speak to the PLO.
Was I less brainwashed than my peers who were opposed to the Sadat Begin peace? I would say, not. I would say that my personality was possibly a bit more rebellious and a bit more adverse to acceptance of the words of the “authorities” and my personality was more in tune with the imagination required to dream of peace than those of my peers.
Yes, there is a lot of propaganda and group think involved in all attitudes on this issue.
Currently my optimism regarding the future is at an ebb and i feel almost irrelevant to the discussion. (That is: those who control Israel’s government and those in America who speak for the mainstream of the community are really not interested in my opinions.)
I also feel irrelevant to the discussion here at MW, where the editors and most commenters have an ambivalent or a negative attitude towards religion and nationalism including almost all manifestations of Jewishness that are not universal in their essence.
That’s all for now.
Kudos , Ms Hannah Friedstein !
“I can only assume that the agenda and ultimate objectives were more important than the daily lives of these mere mortals”
Well, it doesn’t seem like tribal unity to me. Maybe it’s something we should call “tribal utilitarianism”?
“How did the Zionists manage to persuade “everyone” that “Israel has never defined its borders”?”
And persuade Zionism’s supporters that this was an acceptable situation. Let me take a wild guess, it was everybody else who was keeping Israel from declaring its borders?
In 1947 the Arabs proposed an alternative to the Partition Plan. It was that Palestine should become an independent democratic bi-national state with equality for all. This was exactly the intention set out in the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine in 1922, and exactly what the World Zionist Congress proposed in 1921 [ link to religion-science-peace.org
I don’t think Mr. Petlakh teaches at Hunter College, SUNY.
He is not listed in the Hunter College faculty/staff directory, and he is not in the History Department’s lists of part-time or full- faculty members.
Maybe he taught a course there once in the past.
“The fact that GoI has “fully integrated” Palestinian land means nothing about who has a moral and legal claim on it.”
Yes it does. The Israeli citizens living in the “fully integrated land” have the same human rights as every one else. It is not their fault that the Israeli government took that land from another people 66 years ago. They cannot legally be driven from their homes, nor can a piece of territory legally be transferred from one sovereignty to another without the agreement of a majority of its residents. That is why I say Palestine should be given territory (empty as far as possible) in the Negev as compensation for the territory which was stolen from it in 1948-49.
It doesn’t get better than this. Petlakh has been nominated for “emerging leader” award from the Russian-American Person of the Year organization. Voting is currently taking place online.
According to the website: “Emerging Leader of the Year is awarded to a YOUNG professional who demonstrates exemplary leadership skills with a commitment to local, state, or national cultural communities”
The takeaway: YOUNG Petlakh has lots more years ahead in which he can continue to abuse and assault people and then claim victimization.
Lying to a police officer is a crime.
I have submitted to the Palestine Chronicle a related article with the same conclusion but tailored for a Palestinian audience. I will also post a copy to President Abbas. We will see what happens.
Actually a great question. I can only assume that the agenda and ultimate objectives were more important than the daily lives of these mere mortals
Pjdude: please read my reply to talknic again. The forces of the Arab states DID enter Israeli sovereign territory (except for Jordanian forces).
Love to see the syllabus for Prof. Pletakh’s course. I bet it’s a doozy.
I’m not sure if you are aware that Hamas’ weaponry is not quite as good as the idf stuff. I know it’s all very technical but the idf have these things called laser guided missiles and Hamas have these flying drainpipes guided by a hope and a prayer. However they’ve made huge strides recently and apparently their hit rate has gone from one in 10,000 to one in 3,000. So I worked out that they would need to use up their entire arsenal to try and hit just 3 of the popcorn munchers up on that Hill in Sderot.
you mean he still has a job teaching people
not after attacking a student verbally and physically
on camera then lying to officals about it
in America in New York
say it isn’t so then make me believe it
what a sad day for truth
When people say my criticism’s of Israel are anti-Semitic, I usually tell them I really don’t care what religion they are in Israel, never really looked into it.
People have a right to exist; not nations, not businesses, not educational institutions. Those depend on many factors, one of which is adhering to internationally recognized legalities.
Sorry that I didn’t have a full 2 hours to devote to the video but the first speaker dismissed the resolution because, according to him, it would hurt students — who comprise the most progressive members of Israeli society, because it’s a meaningless, feel-good fashion statement, and because the resolution calls for the “One-State” solution which is wholly unattainable.
Not having read the resolution, it’s hard to judge the exact nature of these arguments.
However, it seems not to occur to these learned gentlemen that at the core of the BDS movement is an attempt to establish accountability, or making Israel pay a price for their actions. In the current situation, this is one thing surely lacking, given the economic and political insulation from harm that Israel currently enjoys.
” i was raised on robert kennedy “
Wasn’t that a Joni Mitchell song?
This one is the best, May 1948 after the proclamation:
“REPLIES OF PROVISIONAL GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL TO SECURITY COUNCIL QUESTIONNAIRE.
Question (a): Over which areas of Palestine do you actually exercise control at present over the entire area of the Jewish State as defined in the Resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947?
“In addition, the Provisional Government exercises control over the city of Jaffa; Northwestern Galilee, including Acre, Zib, Base, and the Jewish settlements up to the Lebanese frontier; a strip of territory alongside the road from Hilda to Jerusalem; almost all of new Jerusalem; and of the Jewish quarter within the walls of the Old City of Jerusalem.
The above areas, OUTSIDE THE TERRITORY OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL, are under the control of the military authorities of the State of Israel, who are strictly adhering to international regulations in this regard. The Southern Negev is uninhabited desert over which no effective authority has ever existed.””
link to unispal.un.org
Israel proclaimed itself a state pursuant the UN resolution defining its borders; but Israel has not stayed behind those boundaries since the war of ’48-49. Nobody authorized this land theft–hell, even the applicable UN resolution was a mere resolution by the GA which had no power in the first place to define a new state’s borders.
My sympathies to Mrs. Petlakh.
“All of a sudden, my Israeli tour guide turns on his microphone and announces to the bus to close the curtains on the windows so that Jerusalem, our destination, will be a surprise.”
Was it supposed to be a little like arriving in a sealed boxcar?
” I was called a racist and an anti-Semite, among other things by Birthright representatives. “
Yes, they are very concerned about tribal unity.
an ad hominem attack is one that trys to use personal facts about you to refute an argument. to wit very few people have done that.
what percentage of Israel supports the terrorist settlers in the west bank? 70 80%?
Dear Dr Fincham, thank you for this superb article and many thanks to talknic for the incredible research.
So the deeper we dig we find even more lies and deception. Okay, no real surprise there but I am surprised that the likes of Uri Avnery and Avi Shlaim have just gone along with the propaganda.
It seems to me that the PA have a serious legal claim of negligence against Francis A. boyle! I wonder what his response has been to this compelling information?
Surely this is something that the PA should act on immediately as this should leverage their legal position considerably. But are/will they?
Yes Henry, there was a great deal of discussion of the borders at the GA. This is what the delegate from Lebanon said:
“It was difficult to distinguish between what the authorities considered part of Israel and what they considered merely temporarily-occupied territory, if such a qualification existed at all in their thinking. To admit Israel before it had given up territories which had not been allotted to it by the Assembly’s decision [the Partition Plan] was equivalent to giving it a blank cheque to draw its frontiers wherever it wished. In effect, it meant condoning, by a solemn act of the United Nations, the right of conquest.”
I think he expressed it perfectly. Nevertheless, Israel was deemed to be a “peace loving state” and admitted to Membership.
bornajoo- thank you for your response. i will respond later at greater length, but i just wanted to let you know that i read it.
Something like the Shoah reverberates down the generations. Look at other victims of genocide such as Native Americans and how long it took activists to change the narrative.
Spiritual suffering on that level can’t be disappeared by putting on an IDF uniform. Wife beating stats are still missing for Israel during war time AFAIK….
Philip Stephens had a big article on the FT about Israel losing its friends the other day . Zionism is fundamentally not rational which must have a big trauma component.
On the day that Phil makes aliyah, he’ll be issued his own ID card and will be able to see for himself.
How lucky for him he’s not a Palestinian like bintbiba, even though she was actually born there.
Gee, I know I should have more faith in people, but for some reason I am compelled to ask, why, when the top Zionists had a chance to make a secure state for the poor, beleaguered and persecuted Jews from Europe who had emigrated to Palestine, they choose instead to put them in a precarious, tenuous position which would require continued intransigence and violence, and had at bottom (expansion of territory by war) an illegal aim.
Why, it’s almost like they didn’t care about them!
Thank you, Dr. Fincham – fascinating stuff!
Was there any discussion of Israel’s borders at the UN Security Council or General Assembly when Israel’s admission to the UN was under discussion? Or at the “Ad Hoc Political Committee” that apparently considered Israel’s request first?
I note that there’s nothing about borders in the actual GA resolution that admitted Israel (General Assembly Resolution 273-III of May 11, 1949), just a clause in the preamble “Noting furthermore the declaration by the State of Israel that it “unreservedly accepts the obligations of the United Nations Charter and undertakes to honour them from the day when it becomes a Member of the United Nations.”
On the day that Phil makes aliyah, he’ll be issued his own ID card and will be able to see for himself.
W Jones, you are overlooking a basic, (in spite of being fairly very modern) cultural and theological principle, that of infinite fungibility.
A “real” two state settlement vs. a one state solution used to be the debate. If you think of a “real” two state solution as the IDF out of Judea and Samaria, airports in the West Bank and Gaza, and a Seaport the size of Ashdod in Gaza, there’s a fantasy.
The new focus of discussion, as evidenced by that NYT “debate” is not about how the land gets split: it’s about what are the rights of the Palestinian minority in Israel, what are the rights of the settlers in the West Bank, and how can we bring law and justice and equal rights under the law to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, and how can we provide jobs for everybody, and security for everybody.
The solutions to these problems do not hinge on a one-state/two-state paradigm. Israel could annex Areas B and C and give everyone there citizenship, they could annex all of the West Bank and Gaza and give everyone citizenship–as Rivlin has suggested–they could formally make it two states, or some type of confederation. The overarching questions will remain jobs, security, and equal rights. The establishment of borders will solve none of these problems. Tearing down the wall and beginning the re-integration process would help.
When Barghouti speaks of the right of Palestinians to return to Israel, and full equality, that is simply saying civil rights for citizens, and properly functioning institutions to maintain them, are more important than the borders or composition of the state.
The two-state solution has taken a back seat to jobs, security, and equal rights for all.
“It’s hate , not trauma that makes them what they are.”
It’s worse than trauma, actually. It’s vicarious trauma, PTSD-by-proxy. That way, it can be anything you need it to be, whereas real trauma has real consequences.
While the details of this incident are unclear, we reiterate our commitment to non-violence and express our horror at the injuries that Mr. Petlakh suffered. We hope to know soon the full details of what happened.
david gerald fincham says
he told him who phoned him who said that because he heard this from them and so on……..
anddddddd the “secret documents” are available to you courtesy of “talknic”
but you only talk about israel .
so what were the arab declarations at the time for a state,where are the “secret documents”on this
we know that the mandate had ended but surely arab leaders must have wanted their own state ?
did all these declarations actually exist in a vacumn
noting that it was issued in 2012
Mine’s from ’95, so no help there.
And this line from Wiki (I know, I know) — בשנת 2011 הורה השר אלי ישי להחזיר את סעיף הלאום — didn’t help either.
These historical posts and comments are, IMO, the most valuable contributions to MW. This sort of research takes a lot of effort and is appreciated, and I include talknic’s contributions when I say that.
GoI has survived largely by promoting a two-part emotional meme of 1) the miracle of Israel, which is a 2) tiny democratic country surrounded by enemies and terrorist groups. That tactic has to be countered by promoting a two-part historical reality that 1) the i-Jews stole (and are stealing) the Palestinians’ lands 2) by terrorism, duplicity, and illegal military assaults.
Most Americans automatically side with GoI because Americans have a problem getting over a very high emotional barrier created by Munich, Achille Lauro, decades of Palestinian bus and market bombings, & etc. In the past there has been no way for Americans to understand that the excesses of violence by the Palestinians in the aggregate do not come close to the terrorism inflicted by i-Jews on Palestinians right back to the early 1940’s. The Palestinian side of the historical story has been kept sub rosa by the MSM. Like, when was the last History Channel program on Irgun.
Perhaps high-volume websites like MW promoting the historical perspective of scholars like David and talknic can overcome the massive failure, if not collusion, of the MSM to get out the Palestinians’ side of the story.
A couple of comments on the post:
“And please, everyone, stop calling it the pre-1967 border: it is not a recognized border, and it did not move an inch in 1967.”
Thank you, David. I have been trying to drive that point home for years. “Green-line” or “1967 borders” – hasbara that everybody buys into and constantly re-tweets. The proper boundary recognized by the UN, the US, and every other country is the 1948 partition line and that’s what we should all be referring to. It’s also the minimum of what the Palestinians should be demanding, IMO.
“Palestine has said that, in the interests of peace, Israel can keep the land stolen in 1948-49. This is a wise decision. The stolen land is fully integrated with the rest of Israel, and this situation is irreversible. ”
I can’t agree with your soft position. Nothing that is man-made is irreversible. The fact that GoI has “fully integrated” Palestinian land means nothing about who has a moral and legal claim on it.
If your neighbor builds his garage on your backyard and “fully integrates” that part of your backyard into his property, that doesn’t constitute or justify a transfer of ownership. Now, if you ignore the problem for 20 years or so, then the doctrine of adverse possession can be used by the neighbor to acquire legal title. This is why Hamas’ hardline makes sense.
Also the “Palestine has said” clause causes me slight heartburn. Perhaps you could give us a citation of “Palestine” saying such a thing.
As for your discussion of a wider view of border negotiations — bingo! Maybe that map you base the post on ought to be completely discarded and the entire borders issue thrown wide open.
I favor the well-known last-brownie approach to settling the dispute. When kids fight over the last brownie, many moms will make one of them cut it in two, and the other one then gets first choice.
The world’s powers should force both sides of this dispute to sit down at a table with a map of the former Palestinian Mandate. One side is given a pen and a straight edge and instructed to draw a straight-line border across the map anywhere they please. The other side then chooses the part that is theirs. Such a line would almost have to run generally E-W and north of Jerusalem but south of Tel Aviv. My guess is that most i-Jews would prefer Tel Aviv and Golan to Jerusalem, the Negev, and access to the Gulf of Aqaba, and most Palestinians the opposite.
Just dreamin’ . . . The world’s powers are too stupid to take such a simple approach to the world’s most dangerous problem. Eventually, it’ll be solved by WWIII, in which case Dimona will glow for a thousand years and nobody will want the Negev — or any of it.
From the linked AZM site: Petlakh co-teaches an undergraduate Jewish history course at Hunter College.
It’s a hands-on course. This day the class went outdoor to exercise Zionist Terrorism.
Lest we forget, Sderot is built on the ruins of what had been Najd and Huj, Palestinian villages. Given this History………:
“Huj’s day of destiny came on 31 May 1948, when the Israeli Negev Brigade’s 7th Battalion, facing an advancing Egyptian army, arrived in the village. In Morris’s words, “the brigade expelled the villagers of Huj … to the Gaza Strip”………..
……Morris elaborates: “Huj had traditionally been friendly; in 1946, its inhabitants had hidden Haganah men from a British dragnet. In mid-December 1947, while on a visit to Gaza, the mukhtar (mayor) and his brother were shot dead by a mob that accused them of ‘collaboration’. But at the end of May, given the proximity of the advancing Egyptian column, the Negev Brigade decided to expel the inhabitants – and then looted and blew up their houses.”
So the people of Huj had helped the Jewish Haganah army escape the British – and the thanks they got was to be sent into Gaza as refugees……………
……But the present day Sderot, writes the Palestinian historian Walid Khalidi, was built on farmland belonging to another Palestinian Arab village called Najd, its 422 Muslim inhabitants living in 82 homes, growing citrus, bananas and cereals. They shared the same fate as the people of Huj. On 12 and 13 May 1948, the Negev Brigade of the Israeli army – again, according to Morris – drove them out. They, too, were sent into exile in Gaza. Thus did the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, as another Israeli historian, Illan Pappé, calls it bluntly, wipe from history the people who farmed the land on which Sderot would be built.”
………..who would not fire rockets at it?
I hope the Jewish Israelis emigrants to Germany have the sense to not support this zionist shit shirring :
Pro-Israel German-language Jewish magazine launches in Berlin
” BERLIN – Seated in a café in the Hotel Kempinski in the bustling downtown shopping area of Berlin, Dr. Rafael Korenzecher explains why he launched Jüdische Rundschau, a new German- Jewish monthly magazine.
“We have a message and we are not a mainstream news outlet,” he says. Now, he stresses he “has the opportunity to reach the German public” and convey that “appeasement is a false policy.”
” Jüdische Rundschau, loosely translated as “The Jewish Review,” devotes many of its articles to Israel, contemporary anti-Semitism and Jewish culture . The monthly, which Korenzecher launched in July, has a sister Russian- language publication.
” Asked why he decided to manage the paper, Heni tells The Jerusalem Post it was a “real chance once a month to bring together international and national voices in 40 pages covering topics such as Israel, anti-Semitism and the Iranian threat, which would otherwise not be heard or read in Germany.”
Heni says Jüdische Rundschau has a clear position that “stands behind Israel and has no problem criticizing the German government.” –
”Karl Pfeifer, a top expert on Austrian anti-Semitism, wrote a highly detailed article on Austrian politicians’ downplaying of Jew-hatred and the failure of major political parties to confront anti-Semitism. The October issue also reaches across the Atlantic to interview US historian Dr. Jeffrey Herf on“post-Holocaust anti-Semitism.”
” Alex Feuerherdt contributed an article on the “two-faced policies of Germany-Israel relations.” His departure point is Germany’s flourishing business relationship with the Islamic Republic of Iran at the expense of Israel’s security.
Jennifer Nathalie Pyka, a journalist from Munich, outlined the German infatuation with the Middle East in her article “The German Patient: The land of 82 million Middle East experts.”
InterestedBystander: I am replying here because for some reason no ‘Reply’ button shows up for me below your latest comment.
Is it about enforcing UN 242, and backing it with sanctions against Israel if the IDF is not out of all occupied lands by X date, or is it another fig leaf for the moribund Oslo process
This isn’t the opposition Barghouti draws. He contrasts the BDS demands on the one hand, with ‘the comatose version of the “two state solution”… dictated by Israel’ on the other. That is, he elides the scenario of a genuine two-state settlement, or collapses it into the Kerry proposal. He does so to discredit a two-state settlement. But the beneficiary of this discrediting will not be a one state fantasy, but the US and Israeli project of legitimising a Palestinian bantustan.
You draw in my opinion the correct distinction: between a real two-state settlement based on international law, on the one hand, and the bantustan arrangement being peddled by the US on the other. As I say in the piece, I think the British vote was indeterminate on this point: it was compatible with both. That means it’s up for grabs. Of course, if our side does not attempt to capitalise on and take ownership of it, then the initiative will be squandered at best or captured by a renewed Kerry process at worst. That’s why these dismissive and/or hostile reactions are so irresponsible.
The organization expressed disgust with this “cynical manipulation of the charge of anti-Semitism “-
yes it is unreasonable for the m to view it as an invasion. invasion require actually entering said territory.
I also did “more research”, which , in my case , meant taking out my own ID card (“te’udat zehut”) and noting that it was issued in 2012 (after the previous one had become somewhat decrepit) and, no, there isn’t any “nationality ” listed.
Shmuel is correct in noting that the the deletion of the nationality article had nothing to do with any concern regarding discrimination of non-Jews. It was due to the never-ending “who is a Jew?” issue.
Here is Leonard Petlakh’s bio at the American Zionist Movement (AZM):
Vice President Leonard Petlakh received his B.A. from Hunter College and his M.B.A from Baruch College, both CUNY schools. He has served as the Executive Director of the Kings Bay YM-YWHA in Brooklyn since December 2006. The Y is the largest multi-program community center serving thousands of residents of the Sheepshead Bay, Marine Park, Homecrest, Midwood, Bergen Beach and Mill Basin neighborhoods of Brooklyn with a variety of programs for children and adults of all ages. Recently the Y has grown by adding its fourth location in Windsor Terrace, serving the Kensington, South Slope and Windsor Terrace neighborhoods of Brooklyn with programs for children and families. Petlakh served as the Associate Executive Director of the Hebrew Free Loan Society in NY from 1999 to 2006.
Petlakh co-teaches an undergraduate Jewish history course at Hunter College and lives in South Merrick, Long Island, with his wife and two sons. The eldest spends his summers at Young Judea’s Sprout Lake Camp and is looking forward to his Bar Mitzvah in Israel in 2013.
link to azm.org
Here is literally an actual example of a student being aggressed and attacked by an adult male, a teacher from the same college attended by the female victim, and I don’t see any press releases or public emails from administrators condemning this violence. The hypocrisy is nauseating and only goes to prove that ANY pronouncements made by university administration is not worth the ink it is printed on.
“HorizontalOctober 22, 2014, 6:50 pm
I’d give more credence to your statements if Israel itself were behaving any differently, but I’m not seeing it. I don’t get the feeling that a large, peaceful and understanding majority is getting hijacked into supporting the continued illegal occupation, warfare, detention, etc., by some alien right-wing government. According to the polls I saw, the latest mowing of the lawn was pretty damn popular. Perhaps many felt that screaming “Death to the Arabs” would be redundant.”
this is a worry because the same can be said about America, England …. and so called democracy …. this isn’t just Israel is it
Israel is the ‘pimple’ on the face of it
maybe it is because of global zion(?) influence/pressure
but are these ‘our’ elected world leaders really so weak
(they sure stand up strong and united against ‘us’ and our rights and needs)
not Jewish no matter
not in my name either
equal justice free Palestine
Sure, but all that “implied” business makes a difference. The difference comes down to an interpretation of what this sense of Parliament resolution is actually about: Is it about enforcing UN 242, and backing it with sanctions against Israel if the IDF is not out of all occupied lands by X date, or is it another fig leaf for the moribund Oslo process. I think Barghouti and Hijab think it’s the latter and I read you as saying it’s the former and you feel they are ungrateful, or foolish, or both for thinking as they do.
From Barghouti’s and Hijab’s point of view, UN 242 is of course not enough. It fails to address the law of return, an it fails to address the nature of an ethnic state that preferences Jews over all others in all manner of life within the pre-67 lines. And from the settler’s point of view, it fails to address their rights to live in Judea and Samaria.
From the student paper link:
Later, the topics switched to a discussion about language being used when discussing the conflicts, including how the words “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” can be offensive.
“I think people in Gaza are being oppressed by the Hamas,” Sebo responded. At this time, three people left the discussion room with high tensions.
So in Sebo’s mind, it’s “the Hamas” that’s oppressing Gaza, not the occupation, gunboats, bombs, checkpoints, lack of water, power, basic civil rights, etc . . .
Regarding feeling safe:
“I feel safe walking around campus now, but at the beginning of the year I wasn’t so sure about that,” Sebo said. “I don’t feel that supported by the administration, but I do feel support from the community.”
And this Sebo gem from the Cleveland Jewish News link:
“These people who are wearing Free Palestine badges have no idea what that means. They think it means free Gaza from Israeli occupation or the West Bank from Israeli occupation. They don’t understand when they say Free Palestine they mean the entire country of Israel. It’s not just Gaza and the West Bank – it’s the entire country. They want to obliterate it.”
I’m wondering where on the Rabbi’s fridge this would go.
The Irish Times, the establishment Dublin newspaper, already called for Irish recognition of Palestine a week ago. The case for recognising Palestine as a state – Ireland should follow Sweden.
“Among her attackers was Leonard Petlakh, a professor of Jewish history at her own school.”-
Professor of Jewish history and embodiment of the Jewish present. WTF.
Its little stories like this that demonstrate the futility in dialogue with Zionists.
It also shows how wrong Chomsky is on BDS.
He’s all about not alienating Zios. Look at the Zios in the video.
The mainstream American Jewish community is led by vulgar Zionists. Fanatical ethno-religious nationalists.
Even the tepid Zionists (like the one woman who debated Max B.) are pathological. They can be polite and sympathetic but still they’re hypocrites who enjoy freedom here in America and espouse backwardsness in Israel/Palestine for the sake of Jewish sovereignty.
I guess, I’m done with this issue.
I never had a dog in this fight to begin with. It’s such an ugly conflict and it has far-reaching implications for America and our society.
It showed me how ugly the Jewish community is in our country. And it shattered my perspective on social norms and conventions.
I have never met people so ugly than the Zionists on MW and elsewhere on the net. Other than racists in real life.