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No, Yonah, but you are not considering context if you start taking bits and pieces. I believe that there is a religious side and a political side to the Quran. What you picked up were the political tones set when the Jews fell out of grace with the Moslems (or vice versa) when they came out and flatly rejected that he was was the one they had been waiting for. And that, also came after the trading between them stopped. Much of the religion was actually picked up from the Jews a little from the Christians and when it started out, Moslems celebrated and fasted Yom Kippur with the Jews and for a few years prayed 3 times daily facing Jerusalem. When there was a political falling out, that’s where these sort of “unfriendly to the Jews” passages came in. In other parts of the Quran, there is nothing but love, admiration and praise for the Jews and statements to the effect that the Jews were the “chosen ones” and that the land was “promised” to them. You don’t appear to be aware of these other “friendlier”passages.
Would I be correct to be like you and that jerk Maher to say that Jews in general are bad people because their scriptures have ther god ordering them to slay all the Canaanites and others, rape their women and so on, or that all Jewish damsels are naughty because of what Dinah did? Of course not.
I’m not saying that the Moslem religion is all sugar and spice but also saying it’s not all doom and gloom as you and Maher are making it to be. With all religions, you have to know what to take from it and what to leave behind.
“For more than 40 years now, this contempt has never been shaken. Israeli leaders relied on the US to block each and every Security Council resolution that the Israeli government disapproved of, irrespective of its content. “(Avnery)
Close, but not accurate, the US voted against Israel on March 18, 1978 on UNSC Res 425 to get out of Lebanon 5 days after it invaded it. On the other hand, the US did absolutely nothing to enforce this resolution during the following 22 years while Israel maintained its occupation. Had it not been for Hizbullah’s armed resistance that succeeded in kicking Israel out in May 2000, today Israel would have polluted South Lebanon with squatter red tile-roofed row settlements like those on the WB.
Getting back to Avnery, I wouldn’t lose track of the historic fact that he’s an ardent Zionist like the other Zionists he names in his article Oz, Grossman and Yehoshua that with him and others signed a plea to the Europeans to supposedly help the Palestinians. These people aren’t Zionists of the same streak as Netanyahu, but they are Zionists nonetheless. I don’t believe they are driven by a great love for justice for the Palestinians as much as by their fear of losing their comfortable lifestyle in a Zionist-controlled Israel because of where crazies like Netanyahu are taking it. Avnery, of his own admission, began as an ethnic cleansing Zionist in 48. He switched gears once Israel was firmly established. If by December 20 of this year in his article he is still pushing for a 2-state, he’s still living in fear of losing what he has. Just about the only Israeli that doesn’t leave me doubting his true motives is Jeff Halper that’s toiling to bring justice to the Palestinians and contrary to Avnery & Friends that still dream of saving their Israel by throwing a few crumbs to the Palestinians in the form of a small Palestinian state.
Halper said, “Many of us worked for so many years for a two-state solution. But the two-state solution is dead, completely dead, and the Israelis have killed it. Our message — especially in the West — must speak this word clearly.”
Anyone that’s still talking about 2 states is clearly but vainly looking out for Israel’s interest, and this includes some of the Palestinians’ current leaders.
Walid- Are you denying that Muhammad fought wars? Are you denying that Muhammad defended his wars with statements found in the Quran? Are you denying that Muhammad extolled fighting of the infidel? Are you denying that Muhammad used politically incorrect language (sons of pigs and apes) to scold the Jews who were opponents?
Should i go through each verse quoted on anti Islamic web sites so that you can clarify that all the statements that seem to extol violence are really statements of peace?
If we must go through verse by verse, then we shall start with the second sura verses 191 through 193:
“And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing…
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)” (Translation is from the Noble Quran)
Thanks to Mark for a powerful statement. I don’t know whether 1 state or 2 is the better way forward, but he obviously understands the problem. Oddly enough, NPR had a good story (good for NPR, that is) tonight on the situation in the West Bank. It was told from a Jewish perspective, of course:
I might point out that “Unfaithful Servant” ( Video 4:17) is not the only The Band song with Scriptural content. There’s “Daniel and the Sacred Harp”, “The Weight”, and “This Wheels On Fire” to name but three.
“You don’t have to be a brain surgeon to understand that!” abc
A brain (surgeon ) is a terrible thing to waste.
For American Jews to do something that Israeli Jews and their supporters in America don’t like is “treasonable”? Isn’t their country the United States? How is it treason? Aren’t you confirming all the accusations about dual loyalty?
OT: Not sure if someone else already posted this, but recently Jewish-Israeli actress Natali Cohen Vaxberg was interviewed by German journalist Martin Lejeune. She spoke about how one of her appearances in Germany was cancelled. She also gave her opinion on how Max Blumenthal and David Sheen were treated by German politicians and German media.
link to m.youtube.com
By the way, I think that her English sounds really cute.
” Isn’t it about time that Jews who support Israel don’t give free licence to Jews who think it is OK to help the efforts of the enemy?”
Gee, I don’t remember any vote, any Jewish plebiscite which determined just how Jews are expected to express their feelings about Israel, how they express their support of Israel or how they criticize it? You are against American Jews trying to make Israel a better place, or even understand its history? What is it you are trying to hide? Would you like to cite Mr. Roth’s anti-zionist statements? He seems to care more about the real Israel than you do, frankly.
And that “efforts of the enemy” was exceptionally dumb, even for you.
>> Mayhemeee: Jews are supposed to be free to go about undermining Israel in the name of free speech while nobody gives a rats arse about the tactics of the pro-Palestinian camp? … Palestinian journalists are repeatedly arrested in the West Bank and Gaza Strip for reportedly criticizing the policies and leaders of the PA and Hamas.
What is it about Zio-supremacists that renders them unable* to comprehend the simple fact that acts of injustice and immorality committed by others do not justify their, their co-collectivists’ and/or their supremacist “Jewish State’s” past and on-going acts of injustice and immorality?
The rapist’s actions are not justifiable simply because murderers exist in society.
(*I hate to think that they are so utterly devoid of any sense of morality that they are able to comprehend but, just the same, purposely choose wrong over right.)
I never dreamed I would live to see the lines being drawn this plainly. The demand for servitude (to Zionist ideology), as well as support. And it is Zionism itself which is demanding this demarcation, as if they have anything to gain from it!
there are so many articles about this stuff but it generally stays in regional news or the jewish news like link to thejewishweek.com . it’s a scandal tho. it’s a constant drip drip drip.
bottom line, i don’t think ny politicians can stay in office or judges on the bench unless they toe the line. or police commissioners either. it’s rigged and it’s not treated like the catholic church scandal that’s for sure.
The Brooklyn ultra-Orthodox community has been plagued with sexual molestation charges in recent years, many of them stemming back decades. It has a history of harboring and protecting alleged molesters while shaming and intimidating those who attempt to come forward with allegations of abuse.
but does it hit the national news? no.
mayhem, israel has a history of jailing and killing palestinian journos and photojournos so i am wondering why you ignored that? did you read Israel Arrests 8 Palestinians For Facebook Posts? link to imemc.org link to addictinginfo.org
Eight Palestinian citizens of Israel were arrested Monday on charges of inciting anti-Jewish violence through their online postings, in a move by the Jewish State to criminalize all dissent.
A police spokesman said the residents of occupied east Jerusalem were charged with “inciting hatred, violence and terrorism” against Jews and Israeli security forces, by posting criticisms on Facebook.
In November, Mahmoud Asila was arrested for posting a picture on Facebook that claimed he was in support of the attacks carried out by the Palestinians against the Israeli forces occurring in the West Bank. The problem for Israel, is that as the West Bank is illegally occupied, the Fourth Geneva Convention asserts the same right of the Palestinian citizens to armed resistance against occupying forces. Israel is therefore not only in breach of International Law by illegally occupying the land of the West Bank, but is now jailing those who express views in accordance with International Law.
Should Jews be permitted to put on theatre that extols the efforts of the Nazis in exterminating Jews? Where’s the limit?
i’m curious why you are choosing to come up with this hypothetical scenario? this is the US, not israel and not a place under military occupation. and rather than your fabricated example, the counter scenario of a play about the history of the nakba, even fictionalized, would be (a play about the history of the holocaust, and) the opposite of your fabrication. it would be “Should Jews be permitted to put on theatre that exposes the efforts of the Nazis in exterminating Jews?” for clearly no one is extolling the efforts to slaughter and ethnically cleanse palestinians in this play. are you advocating american theatre should stay away from history of the nakba (or the holocaust) because it offends some? would you say the same thing about a play about wounded knee?
we shouldn’t be using the israeli governments standards for free speech or artistic freedom.
Well, I wouldn’t get too down on the tents themselves. Many revivals were held in tents. At the old campgrounds. And the anti- or non- Zionist Jewish revival which is starting to coalesce in the US will need places to meet, either for fellowship, study or services. until more permanent facilities are secured.
Yeah. Ingrates. Thirty million civilians gave up their lives in the process, too.
Thanks so much and I send my love and best holiday wishes to you and your family, Cliff.
(I just wanted to wait a bit until the thread quieted down on the topic before responding to your generous greeting.)
That’s what I did after I did a double take.
Oh, the irony.
Selective memory, lysias.
Well, we had at least one Israeli come onto these pages during the summer massacre and say how proud he was of how Israeli society had not fallen apart under the intolerable, unprecedented strain of having their beach barbeques interrupted and trips to Thailand put on hold for 2 whole days when Ben Gurion was shut down.
Every Israeli should be given a medal for endurance, if you ask me. Every darn one of them.
Jews are supposed to be free to go about undermining Israel in the name of free speech while nobody gives a rats arse about the tactics of the pro-Palestinian camp? It seems like MW is quite willing to support anything that slams Israel, but with true hypocrisy is totally blind to the other side which is much much worse in its behavior.
Should Jews be permitted to put on theatre that extols the efforts of the Nazis in exterminating Jews? Where’s the limit? Isn’t it about time that Jews who support Israel don’t give free licence to Jews who think it is OK to help the efforts of the enemy? This is not a free speech issue per se but an issue of not committing treasonable activities – not doing things to unnecessarily endanger or damage the position of Israel in the eyes of the world. There are plenty of other people doing this – so why lend them assistance?
Palestinian journalists are repeatedly arrested in the West Bank and Gaza Strip for reportedly criticizing the policies and leaders of the PA and Hamas. This regular assault on freedom of expression does not seem to bother the Western countries that fund the PA, or Hamas supporters from all around the world or Mondoweiss.
“During the peace talks, the director-general of the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group criticized his own government, declaring, “There is no freedom of expression in our areas.” A Palestinian blogger was arrested by the PA for starting a Facebook campaign called “The People Want an End to Corruption.” A West Bank university lecturer was arrested for criticizing Mahmoud Abbas on Facebook. The former information minister was shot after calling for reforms in the PA. This bullying and intimidation is intended to deepen the frustration and hatred in Palestinian consciousness and provoke hostility toward the Jewish people.”
Zionists could have had a secular and democratic but “culturally Jewish” Israel.
I think such an outcome would be fine, but I question whether local Arabs living in it would have resisted even that. Imagine if Native Americans in part of the Midwest decided to make the regions that they make up a majority into a culturally Indian democratic state. I think that the local non-Native Americans might resist creating such a state, because they would not want to suddenly live as a minority in a new state dedicated to a different culture. A more feasible option would have been something like Lebanon, Canada, or other binational states.
Nonetheless, I do think that what you are proposing would be more realistic and would get along better with its neighbors than what we have now.
there are many flaws in your logic loq, and your framing leaves you open for people easily poking holes in your narrative. but i would just like to start here: when you say “based on the fact that there are 5,000 militant muslim groups” what informs you of this alleged “fact”? it doesn’t sound like you’re saying it’s a fact maher made this claim but you’re claiming it as a fact yourself. and even if there were ‘5000 muslim militant groups’ are you implying, or defending the idea that a muslim group that is militant is inherently immoral? or that a religious militant group is inherently immoral. or that a militant group is inherently immoral?
you already stated “Mayer, and others like him, are not against muslims as people” so, am i to assume it’s not the muslim part of being a militant you object to? so if it’s not the muslim part you just object to militants in general? and what of jewish militant groups? no prob w/them? or are you claiming all those alleged 5,000 muslims groups are the same. could you direct me to a site with a list of them, all 5,000 please.
and when you say There is a study of treatment of women around the world which found that the muslims were at the bottom of it
could you source whose study that is please.
and when you say Again, he was simply justifying his comments based on the facts , don’t you mean his allegations or his interpretation of events?
Roha- quote: it’s disrespectful to him to lumber him with that name. lumber, not a part of my vocabulary, is that a neutral phrase or a negative phrase. if hate is too strong a word to describe the use of the term lumber, please provide a word of your own.
Spinoza was sociologically and biologically a Jew until the day that he died. There is no way to separate the man from his upbringing. and he was an outstanding individual who through god’s grace or pure chance had the brain independence and will to suffer excommunication and prevail far advanced from his humble beginnings.
Well, the Senate’s torture report has served to remind us that the 9/11 Commission’s account of how 9/11 happened is all based on the testimony of detainees who were tortured, and to whom the staffers of the commission were denied access. That testimony has zero evidentiary value.
Somebody remind me. Who liberated Auschwitz?
There was an article about such a case of pedophilia in Brooklyn in The New Yorker a couple of weeks ago.
What strategic interest has the U.S. had in Israel since the end of the Cold War, now some 25 years past?
The most important group that was pressuring this organization is based in Potomac, MD, one of the richest suburbs of D.C.
It was also pressure from donors that made the Metropolitan Opera abandon simulcasts and radio broadcasts of its production of The Death of Klinghoffer.
Nothing wrong with crises, personal or otherwise. They are opportunities for growth. What cowardice to try to avoid them at the expense of others’ suffering!
hmm, i disagree dakr. i think what’s likely is that shmuley showed up with the intention of creating material for writing a hit piece against the activists and the bds movement. he probably already had his headline planned out, a fear mongering ‘boycotting jewish businesses’ type smear. the activists were out there the week before and i don’t think he just happened to walk by.
then, what seems clear from the video is the activists just kept right on chanting and singing however he claimed they responded w/ FU! he also lied about his quote. he also claimed the protest was against “ordinary jews”.
and there is something nasty about making claims against the adalah protestors of which no evidence exists.
allegedly NK was instrumental for shutting it down but they deny that. i think it’s much more likely that sony shut it down themselves because they were told the next batch of releases were much more damaging and they couldn’t contain the fallout. hence, it was blamed on alleged threats to movie theatres who showed the film and sony was so concerned they pulled it. but that allegation came after they hired a top dc pr person. i just don’t buy it.
their biggest problem was ending the leaks. so, they pulled the film.
Boteach stood in front of the empty Leviev store and began shouting. “Israel,” “Down with Hamas,” “Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East,” “Down with the Palestinians.”
As usual, the hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist fails to mention that he and/or his co-collectivists are responsible for:
– Jewish terrorism;
– ethnic cleansing; and
– over 60 years of theft, occupation and colonization of Palestinian land and oppression, torture and murder of Palestinians.
So, North Korea shuts down a release of a film they find objectionable, National Media goes wild, and Israel shuts down a play, nothing.
>> y.f.: Welcome to Mondoweiss, Mr Derfner, where nuance is a dirty word, almost as bad as “dialogue”.
Zio-supremacists love “nuance”, “dialog(ue)” and “peace” – hell, they even love “morality” (the “goal + methods” kind) – but they absolutely despise justice, accountability and equality.
I think Avnery is being cautiously optimistic that the US might just change their tune… could it be that the US is ‘wearing” a poker face?
(Hope so, anyway.)
“Jews criticize overture to regime that ‘doesn’t respect international treaties, is aggressive and uses its power to occupy the territory of a neighboring state.’”
No one should have their human rights violating by anyone. You don’t have to be a brain surgeon to understand that!
Sorry, had to get that in.
msg to so-called ‘human rights activists’ and their fans here on MW:
it is so obvious that Boteach is aware he was being taped and is making a mocking gesture and facetious comment about it. He is looking at the camera from frame one and doesn';t seem to be anything but amused.
There was nothing particularly nasty or tense about this particular pro-Israel human rights group vs. anti-Israel human rights group demonstration. As much as PW tries to spin it-it winds up right where it started-
Zionists are boycotting a play about a historical event – the Nakba.
BDS boycotts the normalization of the occupation, profiting off of the occupation, and other crimes against the Palestinian people.
So there is no parallel.
You are making a superficial comparison.
Only idiots in your cult agree with you.
An egregious case is the one of Avrohom Mondrowitz. He raped boys for years in the States and then fled to Israel in the 80’s when the legal heat turned up. He’s still there and still being accused of molesting kids. Israel refuses to extradite him. I think the only “punishment” he got was that he had to wait a whopping 5 years to get citizenship.
This is why Israel is such a sick society, they would rather have a known pedophile as an immigrant than show humanity to those African refugees.
Avnery says that the U.S. has hinted that it may not use its veto. I missed that. Can someone specify where this hint was given, by whom, when?
Attempts to impose dogmatic atheism on sizable groups of heterogeneous populations in an apodeictic manner has not been an effective strategy, historically, for organizing human communities. Many individuals like to believe in freedom of thought and action (and/or free will) as well as individual liberty (and/or “open”/experimental forms of community), especially when faced with adults raised in different cultural milieus. A better strategy, it seems to me, would be to give (headstrong) human beings a range of choices: atheism, agnosticism, different forms of skepticism, and sophisticated forms of tolerant belief systems like religious pluralism.
its nice that you are so sure what Israelis “honestly and sincerely” believe . of course you wouldn’t fault Israelis for ‘knowing’ what Palestinians ‘honestly and sincerely’ believe either.
O/T, from the department of you can’t make it up!
“Czech Jews slam government’s invite to Putin for Holocaust ceremony
Jews criticize overture to regime that ‘doesn’t respect international treaties, is aggressive and uses its power to occupy the territory of a neighboring state.'”
he also ignores the whole drama surrounding pedophilia in segments of the jewish orthodox community (in ny in particular)and the strange rules that prevent or radically discourage victims from reporting it to police and instead rely on rabbis who frequently cover up abuse which has run rampant.
and what of some women being ordered to shave their heads and keep them shaved. he doesn’t have much to say about that. he pretty much just leaves this kind of stuff alone when it comes from the jewish community, so does the msm.
larry, the story is about the transition of a young person who is, for the most part, purely zionist, into a pro palestinian and this, which is reflected in the title “from hillel to sabeel: unlearning zionism”, is not a story that tells ‘both sides’ but neither does it portray israeli people as “purely” ugly either.
she explains how she ended up visiting east jerusalem and that her jewish israeli friends had told her it was dangerous and violent. i doubt if that is an unusual thought for israelis or if she was speaking hyperbole, i doubt it. it’s just background and it doesn’t imply all israelis felt like that. it was her crowd tho. she talks about how it was a “surprise to hear so much Arabic.” it is a subtle way and sensitive way of describing how she began experiencing palestinians in their normal environment in a bar/restaurant. she talks about the difference of being there when “siren for Yom HaShoah rang” and although she didn’t say it you get the feeling she didn’t expect palestinians going about their business. and in this way she relates, in a very human way how she started to understand their perspective without denigrating israelis. more smoking, drinking coffee, and playing music in east jerusalem and then she says this:
I’d return to my apartment in West Jerusalem, unable, really, to explain to my roommates–or myself–where I had been and why I was starting to prefer East to West. I had come to Israel to live in West Jerusalem as a grad student, but was beginning to feel more comfortable spending time in East Jerusalem, getting to know the people who lived there, in the place I was taught was scary and dangerous.
there’s nothing here even resembling the idea israelis are “purely ugly”. the story is about her own transition. when she says
Zionism has given people permission to act as experts on a foreign land. On the most hopeful of days, the whole thing makes me sick.
she’s describing something many many people have experienced. it’s probably the most “pure” thing in the essay, because it rings true (to her feelings).
i think by being there and getting used to (apartheid) it one might overcome what otherwise is a natural reaction (“whole thing makes me sick”) to what’s going on there. but i don’t think anywhere in the essay does it imply this purity of which you speak.
i think larry you have projected your own fears into this analysis of the article and for that reason your assessment is harsher than reality permits.
Ever since the killing of JFK there has been much factual dispute about our government’s official explanation of crucial events that have greatly changed America’s lives and those impacted by our foreign policy. 9/11 is the most obvious where intelligent criticism of the official explanations has been dismissed as insane conspiracy theory. Due to documentation classification, inter alia, our government does not allow the public to connect every dot re what’s been done in our name here and abroad. Those in power lump intelligent inquiry by citizens trying to be informed as spinners of tales of aliens come here from outer space. I think, along with Ron Paul, inter alia, that not one war fought by America since WW2 has been justified, except maybe the Korean War. Goering told anyone listening it’s easy to move a democratic society like us–simply by the use of Fear tactics. He said that at Nuremberg. Most Americans wouldn’t even know who Goering was, nor anything about Nuremberg. Nobody knows this better than Chaney.
But that is his chosen task. He is President of the United States. No man sits upon a greater throne. Bow before him.
I read this telling tidbit today wrt “interfering in elections”:
“Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has so far raised nearly 539,000 shekels ($137,000) in his bid to retain his position at the head of Likud. The sum came from 15 donors, all of whom are from overseas. Fourteen are from the United States, while one is from Spain.
At this point, Netanyahu’s only challenger is Danny Danon, who has raised a total of 261,000 shekels from 11 donors – 10 of whom reside in the United States.
Among the U.S. donors to Netanyahu’s campaign is Kenneth Abramowitz, who heads the American Friends of Likud and contributed about 40,000 shekels. The donors also included four members of the Miami-based Falic family, which owns the largest duty-free retail firm in the United States. The four each gave the maximum permitted.”
Gotta love the human rights believers singing with their santa hats on! There could not be a better contrast…
Es vet helfen vi a toiten bahnkes!
And since there is no known treatment for the Ziocaine Syndrome, only cases of spontaneous remission, there’s nothing to copyright or trademark.
And the same to you dear lady. Stay safe, warm and keep up the good fight. :)
Thanks for the link, Mooser.
From the link:
“This week, Obama threw an international bomb: after 56 years of burning enmity between the US and Cuba, he announced the resumption of diplomatic relations. This shows that he has decided to use the two years left to him in power, without the possibility of being re-elected, in order to do what he reality wanted to so all the time, but was afraid to do. He can spite the Congress and do what his soul desires.
He can decide to act now decisively to achieve Israeli-Palestinian peace.
Let’s hope he does.”
This is what I’m hoping for, wishing for, praying for and what I believe about this President.
Thanks for that link Mooser, Uri Avnery spells it out correctly…
These, then, are the battle lines:
A Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital, an Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty, the end of the occupation, peace between Israel and the entire Arab and Muslim world, or a Greater Israel, continuous occupation or annexation, more settlements and ethnic cleansing, permanent war.
Israel has to choose.
So has the world.
”impressed by the resilience of people living in a perpetual conflict zone”
Ugh. How utterly vomit inducing.
Let the good doctor ask his Israelis handlers to allow him to go to Gaza – not that they would ever consent – if he wishes to see resilience and a conflict zone. Israelis don’t know the meaning of either term. They honestly and sincerely believe that taking selfies while waiting in the bomb shelter amidst the trauma of having to miss the second half of Costa Rica vs Holland constitutes ‘resilience’.
He was too busy being “awed”…
He should have attempted to treat the rampant “trauma” that pervades Israeli society.That,s part of what neurosurgeons do, is it not.
Check this out, Mooser:
“Against a background of rising anti-Semitism in France, a French Jewish organization has begun distributing 10,000 boxes of “anti-Semitism first aid treatment” under the brand name “Antisémitox,” TV5 Monde reports.
Each box contains three honey candies, detox patches, and the text of the law stating the penalties that apply to people who express anti-Semitism publicly.
The poster of the campaign features a doctor wearing a white coat and stethoscope brandishing a box of pills that reads: “Antisémitox, the first treatment against anti-Semitism.”
“The honey candies contained in the packages works to immediately soften the anti-Semitic words and behavior that are the first symptoms,” the organizers of the campaign wrote in a statement. “These include insults, curses, aggressive behavior, hallucinations, and quenelles [a Nazi-like salute popularized by an anti-Semitic French comedian.]””
I hope that you have a copyright for Ziocaine syndrome….
It also brings to mind Scarlett in her white coat.
Maher’s point, I think, is that it’s undeniable that some Muslims are involved in bloody oppression and that their involvement springs in part from an angry consciousness, resenting and rejecting Western actions and ideas. On this basis he speaks against THE Muslims or Muslims in general, treating the oppressive ideas as authentically Islamic. But the greater part of the bloody oppression and terrorism is directed against other Muslims, who are its victims – why is the religious mindset of the victims, rather than of the oppressors, not the authentic one? Why is this question hardly raised or even noticed?
Armstrong is reminded of the heyday of anti-Jewish propaganda in the 20s and 30s. Maher replies scornfully that ‘the Jews weren’t oppressing anyone’ – note the definite article. It is quite true that the Jews, not in any sense a group acting under central direction or by clear majority decisions, weren’t in the least oppressing anyone. But it is also true that some Jewish people were deeply involved in the oppressive Soviet, increasingly Stalinist, system – and they were expressing the angry, revolutionary Jewish consciousness arising from horrible mistreatment in Tsarist Russia, frightening many in the West – particularly, of course, when the illogical leap from some Jewish people to THE Jews, or to Jewish people in general, was made or if was argued that the truly authentic form of Jewish culture was Bolshevik. Which was of course to sweep aside the culture and attitudes of the mass of Jewish people, including those who were threatened rather than enthused by Bolshevik ideas.
So I think that Maher is indeed keeping the company where Armstrong places him.
Carson lost his creds a long time ago, as far as I am concerned~ for many reasons. This is only the latest reason. Check out his wiki entry…
I guess he won’t be going to visit Dr. Mads Gilbert anytime soon. Or Dr. Belal Dabour… I guess he didn’t visit Gaza, either.
That’s what a real doctor would do.
“Machiavelli also said you need to have a watertight social media policy that doesn’t blow up in your face like a a shoddy homemade firework.”
And I seriously thought that the only thing which would blow up in anybody’s face was a push-back from devoted Hillel alumni.
Oh well Larry never did get back with anything specific. I comfort myself with the thought that his few missives will be preserved forever in the comment archives, and redound to his increased regard until the Last Trump sounds.
The intransigence of Israel on full display:
“Hatnuah Chairwoman Tzipi Livni said Jerusalem will always remain under Israeli sovereignty during a Hanukkah candle-lighting ceremony at the Western Wall on Sunday, which she held together with Labor head Isaac Herzog.
“Israeli sovereignty here, in this place, in Jerusalem, is the expression of “the historic link between a people and its land” Livni said during the ceremony.”This holy place, this historical place, this place to which our deepest recesses are tied, will remain under Israeli sovereignty forever.”
The issue of the sovereignty over Jerusalem is one of the most contested core issues between Israel and the Palestinians. After the 1967 war, Israel formally annexed East Jerusalem, an act which was never internationally recognized. The Palestinians claim East Jerusalem as the seat of a future Palestinian state.
PM: Israel won’t abide to outside dictates
Meanwhile, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel would oppose the Palestinian resolution in the UN Security Council setting a deadline for Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank.
“We expect responsible elements in the international community to reject this proposal, but in any case we’ll oppose it determinedly and of course, would not abide by any dictates,” Netanyahu said at a Hanukkah ceremony he held will IDF troops at a base near Jerusalem.”
How the US/ world can support this is really and truly unfathomable.
Love to travel on that train with you for awhile, man.
Great observations. Have a cigar!
Smiley is an anagram for slimey.
Rabbi Shmulie Boteach almost = “Bible, be thou charisma!”.
I kid you not.
We have done it and it hasn’t stopped .It is in our DNA. We spin philosophy and stories and then fight over them masking the deeper reasons for the fights . I call it the latent factor analysis . But still that possibly doesn’t capture the essence of the human nature. The overt variable masks the deeper variable which masks another layers until we go down all the way to the sibling rivalry .
Sounds sort of violent.
We exist exactly where genetic determinism and evolutionary psychology place us, right?
So…isnt the proposed solution as much a fantasy as what we seek to replace?
Oh yeah…today is my cigar sunday…so it could just be the fumes…
The Palestinian movement has some impact on Bot Ox .
Did the Rabbi ask if he had a permission to stage a counter protest? Or is it given since he is what he is?
Gideon Levy, today:
“Israel’s society, still shaped by military arrogance
A new play recently opened in Tel Aviv about a Yom Kippur general shows that nothing has really changed: We are still permitted to do anything, in the army and in civilian life, then and now.
Gorodish again? That war again? How much more can we wallow in it? There is an excellent show in town, run and see it. You mustn’t miss “Gorodish,” written and directed by Hillel Mittelpunkt, at the Cameri Theater in Tel Aviv. Haaretz theater critic Michael Handelzalts already praised it to the skies two days ago on the Haaretz Hebrew website. But it is not (only) the wonderful script, the remarkable directing, the magnificent acting, the lighting, scenery and music. It is the relevance that cries out.
First performed in 1993, the play is even more relevant in 2014. It is the incomprehensible Israeli alchemy. In 1993 it was a nostalgic play, “this is how we once were”: the generals, the debauchery, the arrogance, corruption, inflexibility and blindness. At the time we thought we had changed. That the 1973 war had healed us. That there were no more Gorodishes, nor Moshe Dayans. And look at the nightmare we’re in now. They are all back, and in spades. In fact, they never left.
There is no point in counting all the similarities. At a time when suspicions of sexual harassment, weapons theft, misuse of donations and cover-ups by commanders are being investigated in a storied army brigade, Gorodish is here and now. Maj. Gen, Shmuel “Gorodish” Gonen, who was raised in a religiously observant home, has (allegedly) been replaced by Givati Brigade commander Col. Ofer Winter, who sends his troops into battle in the name of the Lord of Hosts. The hotels have been replaced by bed and breakfasts, the sexual harassment of female soldiers by that of male soldiers as well. There are suicides in both “Gorodish” and in Givati’s Tzabar Battalion, and nearly everything else is unchanged. Not only “Kahane lives,” so does Gorodish.
But the rot in the Israel Defense Forces — one deputy battalion commander already compared conduct in the battalion with organized crime — is just one side of the picture. The other is the military and the political arrogance, and we have both. Back then its name was Golda Meir, today it’s Benjamin Netanyahu, both of them speaking the smoothest English. Then it was Sharm el-Sheikh, today it’s Sheikh Jarrah, and the attitude is the same: Israel will decide everything, according to its whims and caprices, and there is no other. What about time? It continues to work in its favor.
…The Israeli ethos still hinders criticism. A great army of propagandists covers for it. Even when a scandal like that in Givati breaks out, they hurry to say that these are exceptions. Watching “Gorodish” prompts another thought: Not only is this the esprit de IDF, but the army’s contribution to the Israeli state and society also includes the army’s inherent corruption and arrogance. The arrogance and corruption of the happy days of Gorodish are an inseparable part of the behavior of an occupying army. If in 1973 we thought that we were healed and in 1993 we thought that it was nostalgia, then we were as dreamers.
The conclusion is clear: Instead of defending the IDF and placing all the blame on the politicians, the time has come to understand that the IDF is the people’s army. It does not only reflect society, it also shapes it. Perhaps the corrupt behavior of former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and the rape committed by former President Moshe Katsav were born in Gorodish’s barracks. The bullying on Israel’s roads and the violence in its clubs were born there too. We cannot continue to treat the army as only a victim of society and the soldiers as only people who carry out orders. The one who ran riot during Operation Protective edge in the Gaza Strip will do the same in battalion headquarters. And a bully who went crazy while carrying out the Hannibal Directive in Rafah will be a bully in his home as well. The spirit of 1967 has never faded: We are permitted to do anything, in the army and in civilian life, then and now.
In one of the highlights of “Gorodish,” Epstein, the general’s loyal assistant, says: “We have been praying for peace, singing songs of peace since nursery school: peace, peace … Do I believe my government would prefer occupied territories over peace, and as a result would sacrifice hundreds and thousands of lives for them? I, Cohen, am a rotten person. I believe so.” Nothing has changed. Curtain.”
I agree, Kay, Arabs are amateurs when it comes to these things. Zionists know exactly who to buy, when to do it and how much to pay. Arabs wouldn’t know where to start eventhough they have much more money with which to do it. Maybe they’re not interested.
“Many of us worked for so many years for a two-state solution. But the two-state solution is dead, completely dead, and the Israelis have killed it. … “
Zionists could have had a secular and democratic but “culturally Jewish” Israel. They chose instead to establish an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and religion-supremacist “Jewish State” of (Greater) Israel. Their hatefulness, immorality and insatiable greed will ultimately be their undoing.
In an ideal world, one in which our President acted entirely without political constraint, Obama would …
Since Day 1, nothing has prevented Barry O. from condemning and opposing – verbally and in writing – all that is unjust and immoral about Zio-supremacism and the supremacist “Jewish State” of Israel.
His moral stand might have proven unpopular and, elsewhere, he may have been over-ruled, but at least he would have been on record as standing for justice, accountability and equality.
But, then, Barry “Nobel Peace Prize” O. is the guy who is cool with – among other things – on-going militarism and military adventurism in the Middle East and on-going rendition and torture.
More than junket trips. A promise to fund any opposition to your candidacy and ensure that the next election will be lost. Basically a hammer lock on Israel policy, and a guaranteed end to your political career if you stray.
Walid, I stopped voting years ago. The last time I voted I looked for, and found one candidate who wanted aid to Israel stopped, and had a very slim chance of winning. I gave him my last vote. The Arabs, even if they tried to buy any congress people, will never, ever, have the same clout as the zionists do. The zionists have their slaves in every nook and corner in the US, media, think tanks, Hollywood, you name it. I doubt the Arabs can top that.
Boteach is a disgraceful human being. The fact he’s well connected shows how bad it is in the US. Those pro-justice protestors drowned out his petty squeaks without a fraction of the panting. There is an almost disbelief in his attitude; he just can’t handle it out outside his Zionist tribal bubble. He should blow some Sodastream up his rear for leverage.
It is an old story. The US has once again interfered in getting the Palestinians their independence and rights. If the US pushed for the Palestinian statehood, and urged the EU to do the right thing, there would not be these endless obstacles. How much of this is because of Nutty Yahoo’s election bid?
Hillel will fall entirely into Open Hillel’s lap, if they want it. Not a single person can even be bothered to explain what Hillel does, besides the activities covered in the articles. Once those activities are exposed and no longer practical through Hillel, it will collapse.
Imagine what would happen if Hillel actually started serving students, instead of Israel.
“A normal secular democratic state with freedom of religion isn’t an option? “
One that gives Palestinians full and equal access to the courts, politics, cultural and social life of Palestine? No I don’t think that is actually an option. Can Israel afford it?
“You guys are quite pathetic , i’ll remind of this post, next time we will start pounding Gaza
the current cease fire collapses once again because Palestinians can’t hold their shit together.”oleg-less.
Earth to oleg. Each and everyone of us is claiming this has all the “markings” of a set up job, so your response is all phooey.
Address the points that have been presented.And if you wish to enter a discussion about who broke the so called ceasefire first , just let us know.There is ample evidence of Israel breaking the ceasefire almost the same day it was put into place.You can start at the link below.
If we do away with ALL religions, the world will be a better and more peaceful place. Less wars and violence, less hatred, less institutionalized and internalized bigotry and more enlightenment.
next time we will start pounding Gaza
Thanks for the reminder Oleg –
all those DEAD & MAIMED children,
from the last “pounding”,
and the one before that, and the previous one …
pathetic is the right word Oleg,
but it is you who are pathetic and ugly.
But wait . . . maybe I misunderstand?
Perhaps this is Zionist humor?
Sorry to disappoint, Oleg, but I’ll take Mooser any time.
“What’s at stake here is not simply artistic censorship, but the attempt to snuff out works of art that recognize that Jews and Palestinians share a common humanity.” –
So incredibly evil.
OT> Birds of a feather learn from each other. ISIS, which these days is Israel’s great pal, must have picked up some pointers from it on how to increase its cash flow. From al-Manar quoting the Monitor:
After Oil, ISIL Has New Source of Funding: Organ Trafficking
It has been well known that the Takfiri group operating in Iraq and Syria, ISIL relies on oil sales as a source of funding.
However, it seems there are other sources to fund the terrorist group, including trafficking human organs, the US-based media website Al-Monitor reported earlier this month.ISIL militants
The website quoted an otolaryngologist, Siruwan al-Mosuli, as saying that he lately noticed unusual movement within medical facilities in Mosul.
“Information then leaked about organ selling. Surgeries take place within a hospital and organs are quickly transported through networks specialized in trafficking human organs,” Al-Monitor cited Mosuli as saying.
He said that the organs come from fallen fighters who were quickly transported to the hospital, injured people who were abandoned or individuals who were kidnapped.”
Lol .. he seemed he did not know he was being filled, he ducks away. Palestinian Solidarity Demonstrators made it extra special singing Christmas Carrol’s and not allowing him to take over. Asking NY PD if they have a permit? The nerve on him. Have him drop the Rabbi out of his name. He is about making $$ like Christian Zionist fake pastor John Hauge
Hamas is the thrown in all Zionist supports necks.
Another pointless rocket from Gaza. Let’s mow some grass!
One way to mount a critique of a situation or mechanism is to find if an alternative exists or existed . If fighting between human,clans ,societies,or countries cant be stopped ,can it still be minimized ? Can the outcome be made less adverse ? Can the principle of justice be applied ?
Koran has not stopped empire building or fighting but has anybody or any tenet or any principle in real world? Has the UN body or Geneva Convention stopped torture or ascertained equal /just treatment of the combatants or of the feuding countries?
Could League of Nation prevent Italian aggression on Africa? Did people suffused with the ideas of renaissance and enlightenment stop enslaving,torturing and raping the indigenous of Africa or Asia or New world? Did Gautam Buddha achieve something without violence ( It was spread by the power of the empire built Ashoka across those very regions who continued to eviscerate themselves and still do ) .There was no major royal patron of Jainiasm and it survives just like a perennially endangered vanishing sect.
Did Old Testament offer the same protection from the divine laws to the non Jewish people? Did the empire built by Old Testament prophets and kings allow any olive branch or offer any welcome or assure any protection to the local or the surrounding natives? Did the triumph of democracy over Soviet give rise to the free and effective exercise of the democratic rights in the world?
One can preach whatever he or she wants .But the taste of the pudding always lies in the tasting of the pudding.
“All of Jordan’s citizens are Jordanian”
Exactly, talknic, I was talking about the national roots of Jordanian citizens. Jordan was created by Sykes-Picot with a Saudi Hashemite king appointed to rule over it. In the end, just as much as the Hashemite rulers have Saudi national roots, 3/4 of the citizens have Palestinian national roots.
Who’s in charge?
Livni: ‘The world listens to me,’ not to Netanyahu
Hatnua leader says she asked Kerry to torpedo Palestinian UN statehood bid, not delay it until after elections
BY MARISSA NEWMAN December 21, 2014, 12:20 pm
“While Playboy mansion frequenter Bill Maher points his finger at the way Muslims treat women and TIME magazine asserts that the word, “feminist” should be banned, a woman is raped every 2 minutes in the United States. Meanwhile, rampant sexual abuse in Hollywood has been reported by actors like Corey Feldman who has said that, “The number one problem in Hollywood was, and is, and always will be pedophilia”. link to counterpunch.org
from-Jessica Bernstein, Psy.D., is a doctor of psychology.
We are waiting to hear the enlightened views on woman abuse and objectification of woman from Maher.But to get that mind set ,he has to stop visiting the Sex Central.
Women abuse by muslim or of boys by the Church is a major concern of him but then he wont have access to the Hollywood platform or podium to regurgitate the processed fast food cooked out of the off -the peg- Islam-Christain phobic rants
It seems to me six of one and half-a-dozen of the other. Whatever Obama does will not be done for the Palestinians or for justice, human rights or any other ‘noble’ purpose but simply for US interests like everything else. The Cuban manoeuvres are simply a way to abandon the failed sanctions for the recently proven Ukraine regime change route. Looking at the situation in the ME, including the current political frangibility of Jordan, its streets filled with anti-Israel oil deal demonstrators, Obama cannot possibly want to do anything to promote another anti-American Arab state in the ME. On the other hand, the tide is coming in and he can’t stop it. He’s stuck in the middle, what’s known in chess as Zugzwang, a situation where whatever he does will be to his disadvantage. His solution is to seek to void having to make a move at all.
“… that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is in no hurry to ask for such a vote, and it seems the matter will be postponed for a while, possibly for weeks. ”
What else is new?
Six times the number lobby congress.
Lobby = donors.
These people also talk and write.
This is why congress listens.
This is why congress speaks…and takes junkets to iz.
This information makes me recall what obama said when a coalition of less than full-blown zionists (j-street and a huffpo writer among them) got and audience…a few years ago. They complained at obamas lack of action on more progressive policies. “I can’t hear you.”…was obamas response.