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Here’s a scorching post by Yossi Gurvitz at +972 on Jewish religious law on the issue of soldiers raping women during war.  

Answering a question from a concerned reader regarding the Torah’s position on rape during war, Colonel Eyal Qarim of the Military Rabbinate wrote nine years ago – out of uniform – that ‘prohibitions against immorality’ are removed during war….

Q. Is it allowed in our days [sic] for an IDF soldier, for example, to rape girls during a fight, or is such a thing forbidden?

Rabbi Qarim answered thus:

“The wars of Israel […] are mitzvah wars, in which they differ from the rest of the wars the nations wage among themselves. Since, essentially, a war is not an individual matter, but rather nations wage war as a whole, there are cases in which the personality of the individual is “erased” for the benefit of the whole. And vice versa: sometimes you risk a large unit for the saving of an individual, when it is essential for purposes of morale. One of the important and critical values during war is maintaining the army’s fighting ability […]

As in war the prohibition against risking your life is broken for the benefit of others, so are the prohibitions against immorality and of kashrut. Wine touched by gentiles, consumption of which is prohibited in peacetime, is allowed at war, to maintain the good spirit of the warriors. Consumption of prohibited foods is permitted at war (and some say, even when kosher food is available), to maintain the fitness of the warriors, even though they are prohibited during peacetime. Just so, war removes some of the prohibitions on sexual relations (gilui arayot in the original – YZG), and even though fraternizing with a gentile woman is a very serious matter, it was permitted during wartime (under the specific terms) out of understanding for the hardship endured by the warriors. And since the success of the whole at war is our goal, the Torah permitted the individual to satisfy the evil urge (yetzer ha’ra in the original -YZG), under the conditions mentioned, for the purpose of the success of the whole.” 

Wow. Herein lies a hornet’s nest. The first is that according to Qarim, the rape of female prisoners is not just permitted, it is also essential to war; the success of the whole at war relies on it. Even Genghis Khan, who (according to tradition) said that the best thing in the world is “to crush your enemies, to see them fall at your feet — to take their horses and goods and hear the lamentation of their women. That is best” – even he, who excelled at rape, did not see it as essential to warfare, just a satisfactory outcome. Stalin, likewise, dismissed complaints about rapes carried out massively by the Red Army by saying “a soldier has urges,” but he did not see it as an essential element of military life.

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47 Responses

  1. seafoid
    seafoid
    March 29, 2012, 9:09 am

    “The wars of Israel […] are mitzvah wars”

    That’s BS. Take religion out of war. It doesn’t belong there. Otherwise it becomes Jewish Jihad.
    Most of these rabbis who supply the occupation with the moral signoff are way out of their depth.

    Meanwhile increasing numbers of Ultra orthodox don’t want to sit beside women on El Al flights. Israel is really turning out nice .

    http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/anglo-file/ultra-orthodox-jews-increasingly-refuse-to-sit-near-women-on-el-al-flights-1.420298

  2. Dan Crowther
    Dan Crowther
    March 29, 2012, 9:15 am

    Max Blumenthal should take this to the streets of Tel Aviv, like in his “feeling the loyalty to the Jewish State” video.

    What is going to be heee-frickin-larious is the ziobots below me on this thread screaming out: Israel is not as bad as Genghis Khan!! HAHAHA. A few years ago, it was “israel is not as bad as China or North Korea” then it was “Israel is not as bad as Zimbabwe or Sudan” — Now, its Stalin and Genghis Khan……..We’re slowly wittling away at the list, Zio’s……

  3. dimadok
    dimadok
    March 29, 2012, 9:18 am

    Wrong translation.
    גילוי עריות means not just rape but any prohibited sexual relationships, including incest, sex between brother and sister, sex between married woman and non-married man and vice versa, sex between any first relationship family members. So why stop at the “permit on rape” accusation, Phil?
    This is one of three mortal sins in Judaism, punishable by death. So the only plausible explanation for the meaning was ” having sex” and not “raping” with another woman, whether she was married or not. Moreover, there is no mentioning about forcing the woman to have sex with the soldier.
    http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/גילוי_עריות

    • annie
      annie
      March 29, 2012, 10:36 am

      from yossi’s post:

      UPDATE: Following comments doubting whether rape was the issue of the Rabbi’s answer, I post here the question that he was asked:

      Is it allowed in our days [sic] for an IDF soldier, for example, to rape girls during a fight, or is such a thing forbidden?

      • Tuyzentfloot
        Tuyzentfloot
        March 30, 2012, 4:28 am

        (Annie ) I post here the question that he was asked

        I was thinking of it as “preaching from the pilpulpit” but then considered that would be slightly odd :)

      • Fredblogs
        Fredblogs
        March 30, 2012, 1:16 pm

        The Rabbi’s answer says nothing about rape.

        Was the question asked in Hebrew or in English? If it was asked in Hebrew, then you may be providing an English mistranslation of the question. If he was asked that question in English, but someone translated it for him into Hebrew, they may have mistranslated the question from “rape” to “impermissible sexual relations” which apparently includes sex out of wedlock with non-Jewish women. Either of those make more sense than a question about rape and an answer that doesn’t include rape at all. Or this could just be a case of some liar putting together an answer that in and of itself is innocent with a question that was not the question being answered that makes the answer look like something it isn’t.

      • Shmuel
        Shmuel
        March 30, 2012, 2:49 pm

        Fred,

        If you read Hebrew, here is the question and answer as originally published 9 years ago: http://www.kipa.co.il/ask/show/17251-%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%AA%20%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%90%D7%A8%20%D7%A9%D7%91%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%94?fb_comment_id=fbc_10150811630815457_31584592_10151461095585457#f1c4c8e594

        The question refers to rape a few times, and ends with an explicit question about rape: “And is it permitted today for an IDF soldier, for example, to rape girls in times of combat, or is this forbidden?”

        The asker is horrified by the very idea and was obviously hoping for a negative answer from the rabbi.

        And here is Qarim’s clarification, following Yossi’s article (also in Hebrew): http://www.kipa.co.il/now/48026.html

    • marc b.
      marc b.
      March 29, 2012, 11:06 am

      yes, nice try, dimodok. the rabbi’s answer can’t be pulled from the context of the question he is responding to. an additional part of the problem of the rabbi’s interpretation is the further interpretation of the current conflict. the ‘war on terror’, the ‘clash of civilizations’, or whatever euphemism is deployed, is characterized as a war without fixed goals, a war essentially without end. anti-semitism now includes anti-israelism, and anti-semitism can never be eradicated, its potential always exists, there will always be enemies of israel. (i think i read it being described as lying ‘dormant”, inferring there is some biological basis for anti-semitism.) in other words, according to the rabbi, these ‘warriors’ (and who amongst jewish israelis are not ‘warriors’, actual or potential) have no prohibitions on their conduct in perpetuity.

    • LanceThruster
      LanceThruster
      March 30, 2012, 12:09 pm

      Yes, I find most consensual sex comes at the point of a gun while invading someone’s land and slaughtering their neighbors.

      [sigh]

  4. Chu
    Chu
    March 29, 2012, 9:47 am

    fraternizing with a gentile woman is a very serious matter, it was permitted during wartime

    What kind of sage could write this dreck? It would be interesting to hear the political rabbi argue this in front of the any Supreme Court besides Israel.
    The path to hell for Israel is being paved by those that exist within it. This wanker rabbi is one of the many whose scheming ways will help Israel destroy itself.

    • Keith
      Keith
      March 29, 2012, 1:03 pm

      CHU- The Rabbi is correctly applying Orthodox Talmudic instructions. What I have continued to stress is the degree to which American Reformed Jews and others have no real appreciation for the teachings of Classical Judaism, and how this impacts the religious Jews of Israel.

      From “Jewish History, Jewish Religion,” by Israel Shahak: “Therefore, the concept of adultery also does not apply to intercourse between a Jewish man and a Gentile woman; rather the Talmud equates such intercourse to the sin of bestiality…..This does not imply that sexual intercourse between a Jewish man and a Gentile woman is permitted- quite the contrary. But the main punishment is inflicted on the Gentile woman; she must be executed, even if she was raped by the Jew: ‘If a Jew has coitus with a Gentile woman, whether she be a child of three or an adult, whether married or unmarried, and even if he is a minor aged only nine years and one day- because he had willful coitus with her, she must be killed as is the case of a beast, because through her a Jew got into trouble.’”

      Could the teachings of Classical Judaism have contributed to historical anti-Semitism? Is it anti-Semitic to even ponder the question?

      • Chu
        Chu
        March 29, 2012, 4:08 pm

        Keith,
        I have thought about this in the past. I mean why were anti-semites applying the term blood libel? As opposed to other accusations. I think there is a history about the roots of anti-semitism that needs to be explored, but until recently this site has clearly expressed that it will be off limit. But yet these types of articles pop up and where then asking the same questions.

        I was just reading Beinart’c Crisis of Zionism, where he basically uses Atzmon’s analogy about Jews and forgetting their history with regard to Purim and the cyclic nature of Jewish persecution.

        Beinart: It ends with the king giving Persia’s Jews license to do to Haman’s people what Haman wanted to do with them — and the Jews slaughtering seventy-five thousand souls. We don’t talk about that either, because we begin our stories with victimhood and end them with survival. We talk about what the Egyptians did to us when we were slaves, but we rarely talk about what Joseph did to the Egyptians when Pharaoh put him in charge of the nation’s grain. We discuss the Exodus, but we rarely discuss what happened afterward, when the Jews struggled to rule themselves in the desert. Again and again, we silence our tradition just when it becomes most relevant to our age. And so, as the joke goes, many American Jews think the lesson of Jewish history is “They tried to kill us; we survived; let’s eat.”

        http://www.salon.com/2012/03/28/rethinking_zionism/singleton/

      • Bumblebye
        Bumblebye
        March 29, 2012, 5:05 pm

        Keith:
        That also shines a light on Israel’s lack of responsibility for everything it does – BLAME THE (NON JEWISH) VICTIM! If this is the kind of indoctrination that passes for religion over there (the complete twisting of the Biblical teaching), then what hope is there for Israel??

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 29, 2012, 7:53 pm

        “Is it anti-Semitic to even ponder the question?”

        I’ll give you three guesses.

      • Tuyzentfloot
        Tuyzentfloot
        March 30, 2012, 4:24 am

        (Roha)

        I’ll give you three guesses.

        Ok, I’ll have ‘Yes’, ‘No’ and ‘It depends’.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 30, 2012, 5:17 am

        And you’re right!

  5. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    March 29, 2012, 10:21 am

    Acceptable rape is a war crime in and of itself. Horrific

    War or no war this Rabbi looks at non Jews as less than. Dangerous, horribly wrong and this attitude of “less than” is more prevalent amongst Jews than people like to publicly admit. I have been around large groups of Jewish individuals for over a 20 year period and I have often been shocked by the things I heard said about “gentiles” Often said when folks would forget I was there and listening closely. Now I am not saying that this does not go on amongst other religious, cultural or other potentially biased individuals. I had just never ever heard this sort of cultural and religious racism around other groups of people I have been around

    • Woody Tanaka
      Woody Tanaka
      March 30, 2012, 3:11 pm

      Absolutely right, Kathleen.

    • seafoid
      seafoid
      March 30, 2012, 3:13 pm

      I don’t think this is of any relevance to secular Jews and frankly it is of no relevance what Jews were taught 400 years ago but I think the type of crap they teach the kids in the yeshivas in the West Bank is very dodgy and I wouldn’t be surprised if they went way off the wall in the manner of the rabbi above.
      Yossi Gurvitz implied as much in his famous cafe interview with Mr Weiss.

      • Woody Tanaka
        Woody Tanaka
        March 30, 2012, 3:28 pm

        seafoid,

        You are absolutely correct that this is no doubt of no relevance to secular Jews, and I would hope that any religious Jews who take the religious ideas being addressed seriously would reject the bigoted ones.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        March 30, 2012, 5:48 pm

        The problem, Woody, is that there are 4 separate education systems in Israel and the state has no control over what is taught in the more radical yeshivas. There is no licensing of rabbis, no central control. In Turkey all sunni mosques and all friday sermons are regulated by a powerful ministry but Israel is a free for all.

        You know from the US how relatively easy it is to put forward anti science as logic. The Israeli case with the settler rabbis is potentially more dangerous.

        There is an ideology with religious backup that serves the needs of the state
        and gets people to behave in a certain fashion

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHhECvN2kQI&feature=player_embedded

        This article is very informative.

        http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/77378/girls-at-war/?all=1

        Malcolm X once asked “who taught you to hate..?”
        To what extent is the manufacture of hatred in the West Bank contracted out to the yeshivas ?

  6. W.Jones
    W.Jones
    March 29, 2012, 10:32 am

    What about “Do Not Commit Adultery”?

    It sounds like he is saying in the second paragraph that prohibitions don’t matter as long as “the success of the whole” can be rationally used as a justification.

  7. pabelmont
    pabelmont
    March 29, 2012, 10:51 am

    Dear Esteemed Rabbi — [1] is it allowed for female IDF soldiers to rape or otherwise have non-generally-permitted sexual relations with enemies (or anyone else) during conduct of an IDF war? [2] Is it allowed for IDF male soldiers to rape IDF female soldiers during conduct of an IDF war? [3] How can it be that ALL IDF wars are “mitzvah wars” ?? What determines that special quality for a war and how can you know it in advance? [4] Orthodox Judaism has always condemned the formation of the state of Israel as contrary to a Talmudic teaching (roughly, that mankind must wait for the Moshiach to come on his own and should not lift a finger to bring about the ingathering of the Jews in Zion but rather leave that matter to G-d). This being so, in what way is the government of Israel religiously special — so as to justify the (as it seems to many people entirely preposterous) claim that all (or even ANY) of Israel’s wars are “mitzvah wars”?

    Thank you, Esteemed Rabbi, for your attention. As these are very important questions upon the answers to which many good and decent persons (IDF soldiers) depend for their guidance in conducting extraordinary sexual conduct in wartime, I feel confidant you will make carefully considered answer.

  8. seanmcbride
    seanmcbride
    March 29, 2012, 11:24 am

    Rabbi Qarim: “The wars of Israel […] are mitzvah wars, in which they differ from the rest of the wars THE NATIONS [my emphasis] wage among themselves.”

    It gradually begins to dawn on one that this binary ideological construct — the chosen nation vs. “the nations” (everyone outside the cult) is the mythical core of a *racist* and ethnic supremacist belief system. And Zionism has always been heavily suffused with these attitudes. One can easily turn up thousands of authoritative quotes from both religious and secular Zionists to develop this argument.

    So how, really, are members of “the nations” (goyim) expected to respond to being categorized in this way? With warmth? With feelings of friendship? Or with other feelings? This is a subject that needs to be opened up and dissected in depth. The same patterns of bitter and violent conflict over these beliefs keep coming up again and again over several thousand years of history — and they are heating up with exceptional (probably unprecedented) force and energy right now in the year 2012.

  9. Pamela Olson
    Pamela Olson
    March 29, 2012, 11:32 am

    “The wars of Israel […] are mitzvah wars”

    So convenient! I think I’ll try that one, too:

    “Whenever Pamela Olson has a conflict, God is on her side, therefore anything she might do, no matter how much it contradicts anything God has ever been reputed to say, is just fine.”

    I like this business! Maybe I should change my career so I can spout this bullshit with some kind of institution behind me…

  10. DICKERSON3870
    DICKERSON3870
    March 29, 2012, 11:37 am

    RE: “Colonel Eyal Qarim of the Military Rabbinate wrote nine years ago – out of uniform – that ‘prohibitions against immorality’ are removed during war…” ~ Gurvitz
    AND RE: “Wow. Herein lies a hornet’s nest. The first is that according to Qarim, the rape of female prisoners is not just permitted, it is also essential to war…” ~ Weiss

    FROM WIKIPEDIA [Betar]:

    (excerpt) The Betar Movement (בית”ר, also spelled Beitar) is a Revisionist Zionist youth movement founded in 1923 in Riga, Latvia, by Vladimir (Ze’ev) Jabotinsky. Betar has been traditionally linked to the original Herut and then Likud political parties of Israel, and was closely affiliated with the pre-Israel Revisionist Zionist splinter group Irgun Zevai Leumi. It was one of many movements and youth groups arising at that time out of a worldwide emergence of fascism.[1] Some of the most prominent politicians of Israel were Betarim in their youth, most notably Prime Ministers Yitzhak Shamir and Menachem Begin, the latter of whom idolized Jabotinsky.[2]…
    . . . The group initially praised Mussolini for his anti-communism and fascist principles, leading it to adopt the black uniform shirt of Italian fascism for a short period. Mussolini’s invasion of Abyssinia, however, was seen as “cowardly” by Betar and led them to break with him shortly after.[8]…

    SOURCE – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betar

    P.S. FROM TED RALL, 07/22/10:

    …Umberto Eco’s 1995 essay “Eternal Fascism” describes the cult of action for its own sake under fascist regimes and movements: “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”

    SOURCE – http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/07/22-1

    P.P.S. It appears to me that Israel/Zionism has come to resemble what Umberto Eco referred to as “fascist regimes and movements”, and consequently Zionism ascribes to the “cult of action for its own sake” (e.g. Israel’s settlement project in the West Bank, Israel’s determination to bomb Iran, etc).

    P.P.P.S. “BE(I)TARIM” IN ACTION: Jerusalem Day celebrations PART1 : Provocations. (VIDEO, 03:49) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NorLZCkCcuY

    • DICKERSON3870
      DICKERSON3870
      March 29, 2012, 11:41 am

      P.P.P.P.S. MORE “BE(I)TARIM” IN ACTION: Hundreds of soccer fans crowd Jerusalem mall: ‘Death to Arabs!’, by Annie Robbins, Mondoweiss, 3/24/12

      (excerpt)…Chanting “Death to Arabs,” hundreds of Beitar soccer fans crowded into a mall in Jerusalem after their team won a match and what spilled out …words escape me:

      The Independent: Hundreds of fans, mostly teenagers, descended on busy Malha Mall, jumping on tables, waving scarves, and chanting “Death to Arabs”.
      When a group of fans started to heckle and spit on Palestinian women dining with their children in the food hall, the centre’s Arab cleaning staff rushed to their defence and chased the fans off. But moments later, the fans returned, and started to attack the Arab staff.
      “They [the fans] caught some of them and beat the hell out of them,” Yair, the Jewish owner of a bakery in the shopping centre, told Israel’s Haaretz newspaper. “They hurled people into shops, and smashed them against shop windows. … One cleaner was attacked by some 20 people, poor guy.” The brawl might have turned deadly, but food hall staff refused to respond to fans’ demands for knives and sticks…

      SOURCE – http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/hundreds-of-soccer-fans-crowd-jerusalem-mall-death-to-arabs.html

  11. American
    American
    March 29, 2012, 1:19 pm

    This is the ‘official” Rabbi for the Israel military?
    There is no hope for these people.

    • Chu
      Chu
      March 29, 2012, 1:23 pm

      and here’s the IDF’s response to inquiring questions about the Colonel Rabbi: “Qarim was not an officer in active service when he wrote that ruling.”

    • DICKERSON3870
      DICKERSON3870
      March 29, 2012, 5:51 pm

      RE: “This is the ‘official’ Rabbi for the Israel military? There is no hope for these people.” ~ American

      FROM YNET NEWSRabbi Aviner: Women must not wear pants even when alone, by Neta Sela, 05/02/08
      One of Religious Zionism’s most prominent leaders defines trousers as a ‘self-prohibition,’ says women ‘must dress modestly also when alone and in the dark’

      (excerpt) Women must not wear pants even when they are home alone, Rabbi Shlomi Aviner has ruled.  Aviner, Beit El’s rabbi and one of Religious Zionism’s most prominent leaders, was asked in a cellular Q&A session published in the “Small World” bulletin, “When a girl goes to relieve herself at night, is she allowed to say the ‘Asher Yatzar’ (‘he who formed’) prayer while wearing a short-sleeved shirt and trousers?”  The rabbi replied that it is permitted to say the prayer in such a case, but added that “in general, a woman must always wear modest clothes even when she is alone and in the dark, because the Holy one blessed be he is everywhere. And yes, trousers are a self-prohibition even when a woman is alone.” . . .

      ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3552461,00.html

      • DICKERSON3870
        DICKERSON3870
        March 29, 2012, 6:08 pm

        P.S. ALSO FROM YNET NEWS (ISRAEL): “Jerusalem: Orthodox riot in protest of chastity squad arrest”, by Neta Sela, 08/26/08
        Haredim burn garbage cans, block streets in protest of arrest of community member suspected of torching store that sells MP4 player. ‘Safeguarding Torah considered a crime in this country of Sodom and Gomorrha,’ they say 

        (excerpt) Ultra-Orthodox Jews rioted in Jerusalem on Monday in protest of the recent arrest of Shmuel Weisfish, a member of the haredi community’s chastity squad who was allegedly involved in the torching of a store selling MP4 players in violation of a ruling of the Orthodox Court of Justice.  Demonstrators set garbage cans on fire on Shmuel Hanavi, Dvora Hanevia, Hanevi’im and Shivtei Yisrael streets in the capital… 
        . . . Haredim recently distributed pashkevilim (informative ads or posters often plastered in the Jerusalem’s religious neighborhoods) against stores selling MP4 devices, saying “a terrible plague is upon us, claiming victims every day… these sinful devices were banned by all the great rabbis, but are still common in the haredi world… their devilish distributors want nothing more than to drive the people of Israel to sin through movies and other abominations. . . “

        ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3587654,00.html

      • DICKERSON3870
        DICKERSON3870
        March 29, 2012, 6:24 pm

        P.P.S. ALSO SEE: “The First Word: A day in Jerusalem”, By Yehudah Mirsky, Jerusalem Post, 05/07/09 

        (excerpt) Nobody who has lived in Jerusalem in recent years needs any educating about the sword from without. A week ago Thursday I discovered the terror within. It coils through Jerusalem’s streets, and us… 
        …As I came out of the plaza, right across the street from city hall, I saw four men jump, stomp and kick the daylights out of several others (Lord knows why) and run off.
        I called for the police and waited for them to arrive as people ran out of the surrounding pubs to help the crushed victims, whose blood ran down the sidewalk. 
        First ambulances came – some of the EMTs were haredim, and some were women. Then came the police, and I reported to them what I’d seen. After the police left, some young haredim came up to me, hungry for details: Did you see fists? Did you see a knife? 
        I told them how earlier in the day their comrades had nearly done the same to me.
        “There was action at the demo? We missed it?”… 
        …When I finally got home, at about 2:30 in the morning, my wife was, luckily for me, awake. I told her something that I had been thinking and scared to say for a long while: that the Jerusalem of my dreams, the Jerusalem where heaven and earth kiss, the Jerusalem of my father’s childhood, is finally dead. . .

        ENTIRE COMMENTARY – http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1239710892040&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

      • DICKERSON3870
        DICKERSON3870
        March 29, 2012, 6:31 pm

        RE: “I saw four men jump, stomp and kick the daylights out of several others (Lord knows why) and run off.” ~ Mirsky, above

        FROM TED RALL, 07/22/10:

        …Umberto Eco’s 1995 essay “Eternal Fascism” describes the cult of action for its own sake under fascist regimes and movements: “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, reflection. Thinking is a form of
        emasculation.”

        SOURCE – http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/07/22-1

        P.S. It appears to me that Israel/Zionism has come to resemble what Umberto Eco referred to as “fascist regimes and movements”, and consequently Zionism ascribes to the “cult of action for its own sake” (e.g. Israel’s settlement project in the West Bank, Israel’s determination to bomb Iran, etc).

        P.P.S. MORE “BE(I)TARIM” IN ACTION: Jerusalem Day celebrations PART1 : Provocations. (VIDEO, 03:49) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NorLZCkCcuY

      • DICKERSON3870
        DICKERSON3870
        March 29, 2012, 6:36 pm

        RE: “Be(i)tarim in action” ~ me, above

        FROM WIKIPEDIA [Betar]:

        (excerpt) The Betar Movement (בית”ר, also spelled Beitar) is a Revisionist Zionist youth movement founded in 1923 in Riga, Latvia, by Vladimir (Ze’ev) Jabotinsky. Betar has been traditionally linked to the original Herut and then Likud political parties of Israel, and was closely affiliated with the pre-Israel Revisionist Zionist splinter group Irgun Zevai Leumi. It was one of many movements and youth groups arising at that time out of a worldwide emergence of fascism.[1] Some of the most prominent politicians of Israel were Betarim in their youth, most notably Prime Ministers Yitzhak Shamir and Menachem Begin, the latter of whom idolized Jabotinsky.[2]…
        . . . The group initially praised Mussolini for his anti-communism and fascist principles, leading it to adopt the black uniform shirt of Italian fascism for a short period. . .

        SOURCE – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betar

      • DICKERSON3870
        DICKERSON3870
        March 29, 2012, 6:39 pm

        P.S. EVEN MORE “BE(I)TARIM” IN ACTION: Hundreds of soccer fans crowd Jerusalem mall: ‘Death to Arabs!’, by Annie Robbins, Mondoweiss, 3/24/12

        (excerpt)…Chanting “Death to Arabs,” hundreds of Beitar soccer fans crowded into a mall in Jerusalem after their team won a match and what spilled out …words escape me:

        The Independent: Hundreds of fans, mostly teenagers, descended on busy Malha Mall, jumping on tables, waving scarves, and chanting “Death to Arabs”.
        When a group of fans started to heckle and spit on Palestinian women dining with their children in the food hall, the centre’s Arab cleaning staff rushed to their defence and chased the fans off. But moments later, the fans returned, and started to attack the Arab staff.
        “They [the fans] caught some of them and beat the hell out of them,” Yair, the Jewish owner of a bakery in the shopping centre, told Israel’s Haaretz newspaper. “They hurled people into shops, and smashed them against shop windows. … One cleaner was attacked by some 20 people, poor guy.” The brawl might have turned deadly, but food hall staff refused to respond to fans’ demands for knives and sticks…

        SOURCE – http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/hundreds-of-soccer-fans-crowd-jerusalem-mall-death-to-arabs.html

      • DICKERSON3870
        DICKERSON3870
        March 29, 2012, 6:58 pm

        P.S. Discussing a 2010 survey of 536 Jewish and Arab respondents between the ages of 15-18, Ha’aretz reported that “Nearly half [49.5%] of Israel’s Jewish high school students do not believe that Israeli-Arabs are entitled to the same rights as Jews in Israel. . . The same poll revealed that more than half [56%] of the students would deny Arabs the right to be elected to the Knesset.”
        While the ADL and other Jewish organizations consider graffiti such as “Death to the Jews” to be serious manifestations of anti-Semitism, the Jerusalem Post reported on the same poll and noted that “50% of the Jewish youngsters who defined themselves as religious [in the poll] said they believe the ‘Death to Arabs’ slogan was legitimate.”

      • seanmcbride
        seanmcbride
        March 30, 2012, 9:22 am

        Dickerson3870,

        Re: Betar and Jabotinsky: Zionism (especially Revisionist Zionism) wasn’t a response to Nazism and fascism — Zionism, Nazism and fascism all sprang from the same cultural and ideological soil (militant and mystical ethnic nationalism) during the same historical era.

      • DICKERSON3870
        DICKERSON3870
        March 30, 2012, 11:47 am

        RE: “Zionism (especially Revisionist Zionism) wasn’t a response to Nazism and fascism — Zionism, Nazism and fascism all sprang from the same cultural and ideological soil” ~ seanmcbride

        REPLY: Yes, hence: “The Betar Movement…was one of many movements and youth groups arising at that time out of [and not in response to – JLD]* a worldwide emergence of fascism. Some of the most prominent politicians of Israel were Betarim in their youth…
        . . . The group initially praised Mussolini for his anti-communism and fascist principles, leading it to adopt the black uniform shirt of Italian fascism for a short period. . .” ~ Wikipedia
        SOURCE – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betar

        * P.S. Unfortunately, the Wikipedia article is poorly worded in describing Betar as “arising at that time out of a worldwide emergence of fascism” and can easily be misinterpreted. However, the meaning becomes clear as the article goes on to mention that “the group initially praised Mussolini for his anti-communism and fascist principles leading it to adopt the black uniform shirt of Italian fascism…”

      • DICKERSON3870
        DICKERSON3870
        March 30, 2012, 1:10 pm

        RE: “ ‘The First Word: A day in Jerusalem’, By Yehudah Mirsky, Jerusalem Post, 05/07/09″ ~ Excerpt posted yesterday by me (see above)

        UPDATE: Between yesterday (when I first posted the above Mirsky excerpt here at Mondoweiss) and today, the entire 05/07/09 commentary by Yehudah Mirsky has been “disappeared” from the Jerusalem Post website. Israel “shares our values”, NOT! ! !
        Nonetheless, I am truly flattered. So should be Mondoweiss.

      • DICKERSON3870
        DICKERSON3870
        March 30, 2012, 11:33 pm

        RE: “Between yesterday (when I first posted the above Mirsky excerpt in a comment here at Mondoweiss) and today, the entire 05/07/09 commentary by Yehudah Mirsky has been ‘disappeared’ from the Jerusalem Post website.” ~ me, above

        CORRECTION: After reviewing my browser history for the last few days, it does not appear that I checked the link that I had for the article when I posted the excerpt yesterday at Mondoweiss (as is my customary practice). Consequently, since I copied the link several years ago when I originally excerpted the article, it is not really surprising that the old link is no longer good. I finally managed to find the article using Google and it now has a different http. Self-flattery be gone!
        NEW LINK – http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=141545

  12. eljay
    eljay
    March 29, 2012, 1:38 pm

    >> Q. Is it allowed in our days [sic] for an IDF soldier, for example, to rape girls during a fight, or is such a thing forbidden?
    >> Rabbi Qarim answered thus …

    Rabbi Qarim should simply have replied: “No, it is not allowed. It is never allowed. Some might say that, at times, it is a ‘necessary’ evil which, at other times, is ‘currently not necessary’, but I say that it is immoral, always and everywhere.”

    I guess he was just keeping options open. He must be a “humanist”.

  13. RoHa
    RoHa
    March 29, 2012, 7:56 pm

    “Wine touched by gentiles, consumption of which is prohibited in peacetime,…fraternizing with a gentile woman is a very serious matter,”

    Are Gentile songs filthy and untouchable too?

  14. piotr
    piotr
    March 29, 2012, 8:52 pm

    Actually, there are two distinctions made by Rav Eyal.

    One, normal wars, “between the nations” and “Mitzvah war” that probably his non-Jewish colleagues would call “Jihad”.

    Second, what is forbidden in normal circumstances (a lot!) and during Jihad (everything is allowed that helps winning the war).

    In normal circumstances, extra marital sex of any kind is forbidden, during Jihad, that obviously depends on the field conditions.

    Jihad jurisprudence is somewhat consistent. Some people were puzzled why Jihadist would go to a strip club, get drunk and laid. I guess some similar fatwas were applied.

    One conclusion may be that some Middle Eastern problems could be resolved if we would leave negotiations to the top theocrats who may be quite bloodthirstly now and then, but often exhibit more long term kind of perspective, and share their conceptual framework. After initial pleasantries “Hello, sons of pigs and monkeys”, “Hello, donkeys and other beasts of burden” they could proceed with some business.

  15. yourstruly
    yourstruly
    March 30, 2012, 1:32 am

    once again some members of the orthodoxy may pay attention to what their rabbis say but at least here in america my experience is that most jews don’t even attend synagogue, can’t read a word of hebrew, aren’t interested in the translations of ancient scribes and increasingly their children marry gentiles. so assuming that the fatwas of the high priests of judaism affect the lives of most jewish-americans is ridiculous. as for their influence in that foreign entity israel, that’s another matter, but israel’s days (not its people’s) are numbered so the world won’t have to suffer the death and destruction wrought by a run amok entity much longer.

  16. Shmuel
    Shmuel
    March 30, 2012, 6:13 am

    Good catch by Yossi, who (rightly) focuses on the implications of Qarim’s continuing service in the IDF. At 972, there are a bunch of comments that try to defend Qarim, including a link to a clarification by Qarim himself (in Hebrew), to the effect that rape is always forbidden and that he was merely replying to the first part of the question regarding the biblical commandment concerning a “beautiful captive” (see Deuteronomy 21:10-14). I don’t think it really matters. Any answer to such a question that does not begin with the words “are you out of your bloody mind?” is the wrong answer.

    There is a more general aspect to this story (that Yossi hints at in his reference to “The King’s Torah) however, and that is the dominant view among religious Zionists that all of Israel’s wars are religiously mandated (“milhamot mitzvah”). This means that they are always justified (international law and common sense be damned) and entail at least a partial suspension of “peacetime morality”. So while some branches of the IDF at least try to pay lip service to international law and “ethics”, the Military Rabbinate increasingly tells religious (and non-religious) soldiers that such things don’t really matter – see e.g. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-rabbinate-publication-during-gaza-war-we-will-show-no-mercy-on-the-cruel-1.268849

    The impact of such views is especially significant in light of the growing number of religious officers in the IDF and the interplay between religious and secular concepts of “defensive” and “holy” wars and the fetishes of militarism, power and “righteous” violence in Israeli society (and beyond). See e.g. Netanyahu’s recent gift to Obama: http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/netanyahu-gives-genocidal-bible-story-to-obama.html

  17. Dan Crowther
    Dan Crowther
    March 30, 2012, 10:22 am

    I can just see the IDF recruitment poster: Rape and Lobster (during war times only, please ask your server about other specials)

  18. Woody Tanaka
    Woody Tanaka
    March 30, 2012, 3:13 pm

    What a vile, evil ideology this person is pushing. Anyone who could even consider that, for example, a drink “touched” by another is made off-limits or that (putting aside the rape issues here) sexual relations between people depends on whether one is a “gentile” — the mind reels with such utter barbarity. It’s nazi stuff. Almost literally.

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