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My wife explains the conflict to a friend

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Last night we had a friend over to dinner. She and my wife sat outside smoking and drinking wine and gossiping. I went outside when I heard the word Palestine. My wife was telling about her visit two years ago. I listened intently. My wife is the opposite of me. I miss the forest for the trees. She doesn’t care much about facts; but she always gets the forest. 

“There are two things you notice when you go over there.

“First, Israel was given half the land and the Palestinians were given the other half under the original plan, but the Palestinians never got a state and Israel now has like 90 percent of the land. And they want even more of it. So it’s completely unfair.

“Then the other thing is you meet these Palestinians. We have one friend who went to grad school at Cornell and his friend went to Oxford. They’re completely educated, they’re just like us, and so you see what Jim Crow was like, or apartheid, the way they’re treated. Because they can only drive on certain roads and you have to drive the long way round all these checkpoints just because only Israelis can go on the roads. It sickens you to be in the car with your friend when he’s driving around. You feel like you can’t do anything to help him. 

“Then he drove us by these big old Arab houses in Jerusalem. ‘Oh, that’s where my family used to live.’ Before they were kicked out by Jews. Then you go to his new neighborhood and there are these houses with Israeli flags all over the outside and settlers have thrown out a Palestinian family. And our friend has a nice house but one day they woke up and there were bulldozers in the back yard. The Israeli government needed more land for a road for the settlers, so they just took it. There’s no process for the Palestinians, no appeal.

“They say it’s complicated, but it’s not. It’s actually really simple.”

Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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130 Responses

  1. Dan Crowther on June 18, 2012, 1:20 pm

    Cuz we all know, if you didnt go to Cornell or Oxford, you deserve whatever shitty treatment comes your way. Oh, to be “completely” educated…….

    • pabelmont on June 18, 2012, 2:31 pm

      Dan: you are right, of course, but to elicit sympathy we often explain things to ourselves and to our friends — and not only when we are not thinking about being overheard, about context, etc. — in terms of what if it happened to “people like us”. Look at Juan Cole explaining drone attacks in terms of a fictional drone attack in an American city.

      I surmise that Phil’s wife and her friend regard themselves as members of the tribe of the educated.

      • American on June 18, 2012, 3:10 pm

        I don’t know that being educated has anything to do with it.
        Sometimes I think it’s just a trait of certain brains.
        Sometimes out of the mouth of children…..remember one day when an Aunt was visiting and she kept saying as visitors do, I have to go now, I really should go now….and my youngest son, about 5 piped up and said ‘Aunt Margaret you keep saying you have to go but you don’t go”.

      • Dan Crowther on June 18, 2012, 3:12 pm

        You’re right PA Belmont. I knew she meant well, couldnt resist – sometimes I think Phil throws stuff like that in there just to see if people pick up on it. Gotta keep him honest. BTW – That was Tom Engelhardt, not Juan Cole.

      • Dan Crowther on June 18, 2012, 10:00 pm

        “They’re completely educated, they’re just like us, AND SO you see what Jim Crow was like, or apartheid, the way they’re treated.”

        (capitals as emphasis)

        In other words, their mistreatment stands out because they’re civilized. Sorry to point this out, but there it is.

      • Keith on June 19, 2012, 11:18 am

        DAN CROWTHER- I think you are touching upon something that is important. It is not so much Mrs. Weiss’ specific comment per se, but an indication of an inherent weakness in the Mondo narrative. Namely, that the Mondo commentators and commenters are generally highly educated and have a certain elite perspective and elite bias. In other words, Mondoweiss to a certain degree lacks a blue collar perspective. The situation is exacerbated by the fact that the style of ‘debate’ frequently gets a little rough. I suspect that there may be some folks out there who read Mondoweiss and would like to participate but feel a little intimidated. I don’t know what can be done, but I think we need to be mindful of this and, yes, Phil and others need to be kept honest lest we devolve into an echo chamber. As for the post itself, I thought that Mrs. Weiss captured the essence of the situation quite well, references to Cornell and Oxford notwithstanding.

      • Citizen on June 19, 2012, 11:30 am

        Yeah, I suspect you are right Keith. I don’t know a single blue collar worker who even knows about Mondoweiss, or would care if you directed him her to it. If it helps, I’ve been working since I was age 8, and I worked in steel mills in Chicago, and for Manpower Inc, and for fly-by-night building wall cleaners, just for a few examples, and I was grunt, literally a peon in the US combat engineers, and I am a regular here. Anybody else here have such a background?

      • Dan Crowther on June 19, 2012, 12:07 pm

        Thanks Keith – you summed up my points perfectly. I might have gone to college, but Im as Blue Collar as one gets, and thats what informs my views.

      • Bumblebye on June 19, 2012, 12:46 pm

        Keith
        Is it really an elitist perspective? What is the general American/western view of Palestinians and Arabs? Due to the prevailing Islamophobia and negative views (often promulgated for political sympathy by zios), isn’t there a likelihood that non-Arab, non-Muslims see ‘them’ as largely uneducated, or even illiterate, easily led by religious extremists, etc? And lacking the erudite ivory tower types in ‘our’ societies.
        It suits the western ptb’s that some ‘others’ are not seen fully, and in the case of the current goi, it suits them that the greater mass of our public are by and large unaware of the reasons for Arab and Palestinian hostility to Israel. Perhaps Mrs W’s friend didn’t think of Palestinians as inclusive of professionals and academic people, but more on the lines of simple uneducated folk roused to unreasonable violence by the mere presence of Israeli Jews among them. And too, it seems from Phil’s report of the conversation that the friend is unaware of the levels of discrimination practised by the Israeli state.

      • Mooser on June 19, 2012, 1:17 pm

        “Anybody else here have such a background?”

        I have been a moderately sucessful career criminal for most of my life. I haven’t gotten rich, but I get by.

      • Keith on June 19, 2012, 3:28 pm

        BUMBLEBYE- “Is it really an elitist perspective?”

        I didn’t say ‘elitist,’ I said elite. We are all influenced by our backgrounds and, on average, most Mondoweiss commenters strike me as at least somewhat privileged, at least as far as educational opportunities, exposure to ‘blue collar’ employment notwithstanding. I’m suggesting that some additional diversity of perspectives wouldn’t hurt. At the very least, we need to be mindful that we don’t represent a broad spectrum of backgrounds, hence, our opinions, on average, will inherently reflect a somewhat middle class, educated point of view.

      • MarkF on June 19, 2012, 3:32 pm

        “I have been a moderately sucessful career criminal for most of my life. I haven’t gotten rich, but I get by.”

        Hey, I work for the government too!

      • seafoid on June 19, 2012, 4:38 pm

        I was listening to the River by springsteen on the way home this evening and there is a line about “coming from down in the valley where mister when you’re young they raise you up to do like your daddy done” and I was thinking that whole bluecollar American way of life must have been destroyed in the last 30 years by the plutocrats and their friend “the market” .

        i don’t really care about whether or not someone is Ivy League but it is awful to see people being shafted whether they are in Gaza or Michigan or Bnei Barak , Muslim or Orthodox Jewish female or whatever.

        What they did to Detroit still shocks me everytime I look at the photos
        http://andrewlmoore.com/photography/detroit/

      • Citizen on June 19, 2012, 5:03 pm

        Yeah, you’re so funny Mooser I forgot to laugh. Your “criminal career” is not in the least akin to what I said in my comment, nor did your comment have any affinity to the subject matter of what I said. Don’t worry, we already know you were a draft dodger during the Vietnam war, not of any ethics or morality, but simply because, as you said, it was a family tradition to dodge the draft no matter what host country your ancestors landed in. You’re just a chip off that old block. I sympathize with you to the extent every country needs knee-jerk draft-dodgers. I actually think America needs more of them. Oh yeah, there’s no draft in USA anymore. So, hey, I agree with you that the US military is just like the Hessians who fought anywhere just to pay their family bills. Why don’t you tell us, Mooser, about your criminal career? What crimes did you commit? Lucking out in not getting your draft number pulled during the Vietnam War era, when, as you’ve said, you were ready to run to Canada? Hey, I understand, my father in law left “white Russia” to avoid conscription. And my own Irish-German dad always told me if you enlist in the US military you are nothing but “cannonfodder.” I agree. Nothing criminal about that. Don’t really get where you disagree with me, my comments. Why don’t you tell the regulars here? You can even use your often less than funny schtick to do so.

      • Citizen on June 19, 2012, 5:10 pm

        I told folks here my socio-economic and ethnic background. I asked if others would provide their’s. Only Dan C responded. Perhaps that is telling. Annie has told us about hers. Anybody else among the regulars commenters here? American may have also done so… We all know Phil’s, pretty much. Anybody else want to pitch in as to what petri dish they come from?

      • Mooser on June 19, 2012, 5:44 pm

        “What crimes did you commit?”

        You expect me to snitch on myself? Get lost.

      • Mooser on June 19, 2012, 5:49 pm

        “I asked if others would provide their’s.”

        I was born in the wagon of a traveling show. My Momma used to dance for the money they’ed throw. My father would do whatever he could, preach a little Gospel, sell a few bottles of Doctor Good. Plus, he had a line of schmottas.

      • Dan Crowther on June 19, 2012, 6:01 pm

        Not for nothin, but this thinly veiled anti jewish -combined with the veteran martyr complex- screed from citizen is deeply distasteful. you say you got drafted and went? congratu-fucking-lations. B.F.D. Time to get down from the cross.

      • American on June 19, 2012, 6:47 pm

        I don’t take the reference to Cornell and Oxford as elitest at all.
        I think it was making the point that Palestines “are like us”….not some uncivilized backward society not interested in education or learning.

        You guys are overdoing the elitest criticism on this.

      • Mooser on June 19, 2012, 6:53 pm

        Dan, how dare you? How many people do you know who were both spit on as a returning Vietnam Vet and beaten up by Mayor Daley’s police at an anti-war demonstration? That was through with both the “Catholic establishment” and “Jewish establishment” by age 25? From people like that you don’t get the benefits of their experience every day!
        Makes my life of petty crime look so, so, well, petty.

      • Dan Crowther on June 19, 2012, 7:19 pm

        “You guys are overdoing the elitest criticism on this.”
        —————————–

        You say this because you generally agree with Phil. And so do I. People tend to let the piccadilloes of others go unnoticed when they are of like mind on other topics.

      • on June 19, 2012, 7:53 pm

        @Dan Crowther “this thinly veiled anti jewish … screed from citizen is deeply distasteful…”

        Where the hell are we writing here fercryinoutloud, on the Foxman ADL site? If you want to play the guardian against “Antisemitism” that’s one of the places you can go to. On a site to support the fight against Zionism any attempts to play holier-than-thou with accusations of “anti-semitism” are nothing but an attempt at dividing the movement. And, apart from the fact that this kind of sh%$#7 has no place in the solidarity movement, when you make that kind of insinuations you are required to clearly prove what you are saying. Your so-called opinion is not sufficient.

      • Keith on June 19, 2012, 11:59 pm

        DAN CROWTHER- “People tend to let the piccadilloes of others go unnoticed when they are of like mind on other topics.”

        Peccadilloes? Is that what you guys talk about at the VFW over a couple of beers? Like the Texan said, the only thing in the middle of the road are dead peccadilloes! By the way, have you noticed that some of the comments have gotten a bit nasty? Jeez, I hope it was nothing I said.

      • American on June 20, 2012, 2:03 am

        “You say this because you generally agree with Phil. And so do I. People tend to let the piccadilloes of others go unnoticed when they are of like mind on other topics.”..Dan

        I agree with Phil on many things, some things I don’t, he’s way more idealistic than I am….sometimes he has a touch of elitism himself…..but there was no elitism in what his wife said…none.

      • ColinWright on June 20, 2012, 4:44 am

        I assumed he was a lawyer.

      • Citizen on June 20, 2012, 1:47 pm

        Mooser, your comment is the epitome of inane–schmottas yet–your appeal to Yiddish is even more inane on this blog. But that won’t stop you. Not all of here think you’re funny. Time to get rid of your Moose costume. It’s infantile and a bad smokescreen. We do know you are a romantic in the vein of your self-described family tradition of draft dodging. So what’s new?

      • on June 18, 2012, 7:16 pm

        @pabelmont – “we often explain things to ourselves and to our friends … in terms of what if it happened to “people like us”.
        Bingo!
        My only “like us” frame of reference (and that of all of my generation), common to very many people especially in Europe, is Nazism, Nazi occupation and Resistance.
        Mondoweiss is censoring these references pretty systematically.

      • Kathleen on June 19, 2012, 1:18 pm

        Elitism, racism, classism slip in places we may not be aware but I don’t think this is one of them. I think Phil was pointing out formerly well educated people can have their heads up where the sun does not shine on critical issues even more than those without alleged terrific educations. Always brings me back to my childhood addiction to reading about WWII and that horrific genocide. As a kid I would ask quietly and then out loud “how and why did people stand by and not do anything for so long” Some either did not know or did not care.

        Then all I have to do is look at the lack of concern, empathy etc that most Americans are guilty of when it comes to the dead in Iraq…the situation in Palestine etc. Part of the “why” no one cares… is lack of honest fact based coverage. Some people really do not know. And some of it is people do not give a rats ass and that of course is much more frightening. People who know and do not respond

      • seafoid on June 19, 2012, 5:01 pm

        Part of the “why” no one cares… is lack of honest fact based coverage

        I think that is a huge part of it. That is why hasbara is so important to Israel. the occupation is shameful on so many levels and hasbara makes it ok except that it’s like the picture of Dorian Gray and only puts off the inevitable PR and morality crash.

        I think Michael Oren will die in disgrace after the truth comes out. Like one of those Franco cronies. Say the chief of police of Barcelona in the 40s.

      • Citizen on June 19, 2012, 5:12 pm

        Really, sardelapasti, give us an example of these censored frames of reference?

      • ColinWright on June 20, 2012, 5:05 am

        All you have to do is look at it in the right way.

        For the last ten years or so, it’s been pretty common to advocate courses of action that would imply the death of twenty million or so Iranians.

        Of course (at least hopefully) that’s not what the advocates of these courses of action are thinking about.

        …and that’s really all that’s required. Just don’t think about it from an awkward point of view. Ever notice how violently pro-Israel people react against anything that portrays Palestinians as people? Cute baby pictures will drive them up the wall.

      • Citizen on June 20, 2012, 1:48 pm

        Kathleen, I agree with you, for one here.

    • Sumud on June 18, 2012, 8:00 pm

      I think you’re reading a little much into that statement Dan Crowther.

    • annie on June 18, 2012, 9:10 pm

      oh geez dan. the story she told was true. phil even wrote about it. so what’s she supposed to do? tweek the story and make it about pretend friends who didn’t go to college together and bonded in some other way? jeez louise.

      • philweiss on June 19, 2012, 12:30 pm

        thanks annie!

      • Citizen on June 19, 2012, 5:16 pm

        But the difference, Phil, is that you read MW comments, and so, know more than your wife–unless, your wife reads your blog regularly. Does anyone here get the impression Phil’s wife read his blog regularly from what Phil, rarely, says about what she says about the situation? I sure do not get that impression.

      • Mooser on June 19, 2012, 6:07 pm

        “Does anyone here get the impression Phil’s wife read his blog regularly”

        Is she required to? I don’t remember anything about having to read a spouse’s blog in the ceremony. And I made sure we got the full traditional “love, honor and obey” version. Not that it did any good, of course.

      • Kathleen on June 19, 2012, 9:17 pm

        Not sure why the “Phil’s wife” thing keeps being repeated by Phil and others. Not sure why Phil chooses to not give her a name (even if it is fake) since he refers to her opinions. “my wife” “his wife” Is this the 1950’s? Reminds me of when I would take our 3 daughters into museums and they would always come out asking why any reference to women were generally “the wife” “wives of” “the women folk” No identities. I can understand she may not want her exact name used…but this is redongdiculous.

      • Citizen on June 20, 2012, 1:50 pm

        What ceremony, Mooser? Nobody has to do, or not do anything, of course. Not even a ceremony.

      • ColinWright on June 20, 2012, 5:08 am

        I think the whole concern about ‘good schools’ and recruiting more of a working class element and all that is precious, neurotic, and very typical of the East Coast.

  2. eljay on June 18, 2012, 1:28 pm

    >> It’s actually really simple.

    I agree that explaining the mess is simple – heck, “Jewish state” would have sufficed as a summary! ;-)

    Unfortunately, getting out of the mess is not (see “Jewish state”).

  3. Kathleen on June 18, 2012, 1:32 pm

    Your wife and others could use this information. Hand out.. Facts. Allison Weir made it easy
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

    • Citizen on June 18, 2012, 5:01 pm

      I agree, Kathleen. I think Phil’s wife grasped the nub of the rub, but, gee Allison Weir really has made a crib sheet of basic facts it doesn’t take long to review, certainly not long from Wife’s “upper crust” magazine work. I respect Weir immensely. There’s a handful of smart and ethical/moral old-timers on this I-P scene in America that have labored in the hidden vineyards for so long now…. If there’s any who should sit at the right hand of a just god in heaven, it’s Ms Weir.
      Phil’s Weiss’s wife does seem to be a bit of a snob in the way she gives example of the simple unfairness of it all–then again, she’s likely talking to one of her own socio-economic family class and background…. maybe if Phil has a maid, if his wife spoke to her on the subject she would use a different example from her time spent over there? Like maybe that little Palestinian boy (and his parents?) Phil mentioned his wife struck up a relationship with when they were there? Phil wrote an article about that here on this blog.

      • Kathleen on June 19, 2012, 9:33 am

        Yep. Easy to put in your bag, purse, pocket and drop where ever you go

  4. radii on June 18, 2012, 2:09 pm

    The most cogent and economical analysis of the situation I’ve read in years – if your wife, or someone with her understanding, were the one to settle the conflict you would get a fair result. She deserves extra kisses.

  5. YoungMassJew on June 18, 2012, 2:15 pm

    When I try to talk about the conflict with my highly educated uncle, who I would describe as a non-Zionist, he ignores me, except the one time he got all defensive about the Flotilla Massacre. That, for some reason, borthered him, but calling Israel a fascist state didn’t. He doesn’t understand why I get upset with him for listening to Fox News on satellite radio in the car as I constantly have to shut the damn thing off.

    • seafoid on June 18, 2012, 4:27 pm

      he ignores me, except the one time he got all defensive about the Flotilla Massacre. That, for some reason, borthered him, but calling Israel a fascist state didn’t.

      I think that is the “but Jews wouldn’t do that” obstacle. So you need lists.

      Zionist Jews paid salaries by Israel plan and run the system that produced this

      http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-scientists-find-new-strain-of-mrsa-bacteria-spreading-in-gaza-city.premium-1.437002
      Israeli scientists find new strain of MRSA bacteria spreading in Gaza City

      “But Jews wouldn’t do that”

      • ritzl on June 19, 2012, 12:18 am

        Sorry to go OT, but dear God…

        It is unclear how many Palestinians have died to date as a result of contracting MRSA, but Dr. Gili Regev-Yochay, a physician participating in the joint project and a researcher at the infectious disease unit at the Sheba Medical Center near Tel Aviv, said the bacterium is “transmitting very rapidly” in Gaza.

        “At first we thought it came from a European volunteer and spread because of the overcrowding, but genetic markers of the Gaza bacterium make us believe that it’s a different strain,” Regev-Yochay said.

        “We assume it developed resistance to antibiotics in some unique process that occurred in Gaza,” he said.

        http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2012-06/18/c_131661336.htm (Haaretz article is behind the paywall.)

        You mean with the Gaza, blockade-“agar-ed” petri dish of poor nutrition, lowered immune responses, raw sewage, bad water, and the lack of blockade-restricted broad-spectrum antibiotic therapies, something like this might happen? Who’d a thunk it?

        “It is unclear how many Palestinians have died from this” indeed. This is well into ghoulish behavior by Israel (assumption, but “unique to Gaza” is a big clue). I wonder if a group of doctors grabbed the right drugs, got on a boat and sailed to Gaza to sort this out, would Israel kill them and/or arrest and deport them?

        Good example to use though if one is describing the forest.

        Oh and BTW, Thanks Israel. Just what the world needed, a new and unique strain of MRSA. I wonder if a Nobel prize awaits.

      • seafoid on June 19, 2012, 3:39 am

        I think it’s macabre, Ritzl. The siege is now in year 5. Things can only get worse. People are dying. And this is deliberate policy from the only democracy in the region, the homeland of the Jewish people .

        Gaza is going to become one of those parts of the world where diseases self reinforce, like the borderlands between Burma and Thailand. The version of the illness that ends the effectiveness of anti TB drugs could well come from Gaza.

        And all non Jews are at risk of incarceration.

        This is what they are going to do with their unwanted Africans :

        http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-seeks-to-build-tent-camp-for-african-migrants-with-no-sewage-or-proper-facilities.premium-1.437205

        The National Building and Planning Council will consider exempting the construction of refugee camps in the south from almost all planning regulations on Tuesday. The Defense Ministry has asked the council to exempt the Israel Defense Forces and the ministry’s construction division from approval by the local authority and its construction committee engineer.

        The ministry says the move, together with other proposed changes in the plans for the camps, are intended “to meet the tight schedule to implement the cabinet’s decision” to build the camp for African refugees crossing the Egyptian border into Israel.

        But the Bimkom planning rights group says the exemption and changes would create “a huge concentration camp with harsh conditions. The changes would enable the imprisonment of thousands of people in tents for three years or more, in difficult physical conditions and extreme climate conditions.”

        “There’s no time for a planning procedure for the tents,” a defense official said. “Due to the required speed, the only thing we’ll do is put up tents instead of buildings. In the future the objective is to house them in buildings.”

        The ministry proposes putting off the construction of public buildings required by the master plan such as classrooms, dining rooms, hair-cutting shops and cantines due to the urgency of populating the facility.

        The master plan stipulates that due to the sewage problems in the area, only 6,000 people may be interned in the detention center. The sewage was to be treated in the Ketziot oxidation pools. Now the ministry proposes allocating an area for a regional sewage treatment facility near the oxidation pools, which could take several years to build. Consequently, the migrants’ detention centers will be populated long before a proper sewage system is up and running.

      • ritzl on June 19, 2012, 11:45 am

        Yeah. Gaza as refugee camp-cum-ghetto-cum-prison, now cum-leper colony.

      • Mooser on June 19, 2012, 1:20 pm

        “I think it’s macabre, Ritzl. The siege is now in year 5. Things can only get worse. People are dying.”

        To avoid getting upset, read Shmuel’s post on why we should be oh, so patient with the Israelis.

      • seafoid on June 19, 2012, 4:53 pm

        Israel is going to end up like Murdoch’s newspapers, a wave of revulsion from the public bringing them down. What Israel and its backers are doing to Gaza will eventually make it out to the world. It might take a cholera outbreak but cholera is more or less guaranteed anyway.

        Note to Israel- spare us all the crap about kosher .

        http://www.myjewishlearning.com/israel/Contemporary_Life/Society_and_Religious_Issues/Religious_Soldiers.shtml

        Separating meat and dairy in Sderot while over the fence the people are forced by observant Jews to live in shit.

      • Shmuel on June 20, 2012, 2:47 am

        To avoid getting upset, read Shmuel’s post on why we should be oh, so patient with the Israelis.

        And which post would that be, Mooser?

      • lysias on June 20, 2012, 10:36 am

        There was a lot of cholera in the Philippines during the Philippine-American War. Somehow news of it never got to the States. I recently saw a 1939 Gary Cooper movie, The Real Glory, about the Moro Rebellion that followed the Philippine-American War that blamed a cholera outbreak on the guerrillas cutting off a town’s water, so that they had to use a polluted well. Actually, the cholera in the Philippines was caused by the American policy of forcing the Filipinos into concentration camps.

        And now Gaza is one big concentration camp.

      • marc b. on June 20, 2012, 3:50 pm

        There was a lot of cholera in the Philippines during the Philippine-American War.

        And now Gaza is one big concentration camp.

        yes, and there was that unfortunate outbreak of cholera in haiti back in 2010. when haitians first accused the UN as having caused the spread of the illness, they were poo-pooed, or more accurately, villianized as a nation of conspiracy mongers looking to place blame elsewhere for their country’s ills. and yet, lo and behold, it later turns out it that the UN was the culprit. well now the accidental dumping of feces into a source for potable water is one thing (i can see that happening at my age, as i often confuse the out-house for the well), but to suggest that someone might intentionally release pathogens, to conduct a field test of sorts, measuring and analyzing vectors and so on, well that’s just too much.

      • Hostage on June 21, 2012, 7:22 pm

        but to suggest that someone might intentionally release pathogens, to conduct a field test of sorts, measuring and analyzing vectors and so on, well that’s just too much.

        Reliable reports that Israelis have used poisons or biological agents date back to 1948. Although the BBC had trouble getting theirs broadcast:

        It is sometimes necessary to make last minute scheduling changes, and with events around the Iraq conflict so fluid at present, this is particularly the case.

        The programme was transmitted at the first available opportunity and the BBC trailed and promoted the new schedule to direct audiences to the programme from Sunday night and through Monday.

        There is no suggestion that any political pressure affected a scheduling decision by the BBC. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/2837671.stm

        *Israel declared over the weekend that it is cutting off ties with the BBC to protest a repeat broadcast of a documentary about non-conventional weapons said to be in Israel. The program was broadcast for the first time in March in Britain, and was rerun Saturday on a BBC channel that is aired all over the world. The boycott decision was made by Israel’s public relations forum, made up of representatives from the Prime Minister’s Office, the Foreign Ministry and the Government Press Office. It was decided that government offices won’t assist BBC producers and reporters, that Israeli officials will not give interviews to the British network, and that the Government Press Office will make it difficult for BBC employees to get press cards and work visas in Israel. Before the broadcast Saturday, Israeli officials tried to pressure the BBC to cancel the broadcast, saying that the program was biased and presented Israel as an evil dictatorship. Here is a complete transcript of the program.

        BBC Transcript of “Israel’s Secret Weapon” (part 1)
        http://electronicintifada.net/content/bbc-transcript-israels-secret-weapon-part-1/4659
        BBC Transcript of “Israel’s Secret Weapon” (part 2)
        http://electronicintifada.net/content/bbc-transcript-israels-secret-weapon-part-2/4661

        Unfortunately quite a few officials and doctors here in the US have shared the same views about mankind as Dr. Josef Mengele. Wickedness is part of the human condition. It exists everywhere that we exist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States#Pathogens.2C_disease.2C_and_biological_warfare_agents

    • Citizen on June 18, 2012, 5:14 pm

      YoungMassJew, I imagine if you called Israel a fascist state it won’t bother your educated uncle since he’d immediately conjure up Hitler’s Germany or Mussolini’s Italy and so he’d laugh inside at anyone who’s say Bibi & Israel are the same. Did you ever ask him what he thought of the settlements expanding since 1967? What if you told him that looks like lebensraum to you? Perhaps he realizes the flotilla murders happened on the neutral high seas, and that the blockade is collective punishment? Or did he read that those boat members were executed? Ask him, “Why doesn’t Fox news ever bring up the illegal settlements issue?” And, “Fox news pundits are saying we should lean on Syria for its mistreatment of dissent, but why don’t they ever talk about the Bahrain regime’s on-going treatment of dissenters–and why is it ok that Saudi Arabia sends troops there to protect that regime, while Fox News pundits are always castigating Iran for alleged indirect helping Assad?

      • YoungMassJew on June 18, 2012, 9:18 pm

        I can’t even get that far with him. He just ignores me straight up. Like I said, he’s actually a good guy and if you met him in person you would agree. He just tells me he doesn’t care about the issue, except when he flipped out over the flotilla and cited the Ma’an Palestinian news service that said that the activists provoked the thing. I think they’re the Arab world’s equivalent of Fox News? Again, the whole argument happened like 2 years ago. He tells me that I’m “too obsessed with the Jews”, and that I need to find a different hobby. He’s too busy being a mr. big-shot doctor.

      • annie on June 18, 2012, 9:36 pm

        cited the Ma’an Palestinian news service that said that the activists provoked the thing. I think they’re the Arab world’s equivalent of Fox News?

        you really have a way with words mr young jew. just enough for me to completely not trust who you say you are. just saying.

      • YoungMassJew on June 19, 2012, 12:59 am

        I actually have no idea whether Ma’an is like that or not. I was just guessing there and throwing it out there. I know there are news outlets that the U.S. partially funds to get their side of the story to reach Arab people. Is it Al-Arabiya? It would be a stretch, then, to call it the Arab world’s Fox as that would be hyperbolic. It’s true that I don’t have a good way with words sometimes. I truly am who I say I am. I’m male, 22, and a newly converted, for lack of a better word, anti-Zionist individual from a reform Jewish background. There’s nothing more really to say. What else would you like to know about me? without giving away my first and last name as I’m not comfortable at the moment to do so…
        So Ma’an isn’t like Fox. I just looked it up. So my uncle must have been lying that it was Ma’an that said the activists provoked the IDF. Again, the whole arguement happened 2 years ago so it’s hard to remember word for word every detail of the conversation. I tell no lies. Sometimes people lie to me.

      • dbroncos on June 19, 2012, 3:23 am

        YMJ: “He tells me that I’m “too obsessed with the Jews”, and that I need to find a different hobby.”

        LOL :D This statement perfectly describes the looks on the faces of my co workers, friends, family members and girlfriend when I talk about I/P. They don’t understand how I could possibly be so interested in this niche market…unless it was because of my secret obsession with/contempt for Jews! They joke that my interest in I/P is really a mask for my antisemitism. I’m happy to say, however, that they don’t joke as much as they did 10 years ago and that my views on I/P are taken at face value rather being interpreted as an anti-Jewish critique. Progress.

      • Citizen on June 19, 2012, 8:58 am

        dbroncos, ditto here–except I am luckier because one of my sisters and my brother are well aware, and educated on the I-P conflict and US “special relationship” with Israel and what it has woven, and continues to weave. Otherwise, I get the same attitude on the subject if I dare to bring it up, or, I simply get ignored.

      • Sumud on June 19, 2012, 1:20 pm

        They joke that my interest in I/P is really a mask for my antisemitism. I’m happy to say, however, that they don’t joke as much as they did 10 years ago and that my views on I/P are taken at face value rather being interpreted as an anti-Jewish critique.

        This is the purpose and intention of the crying-wolf claims about anti-semitism. Well it’s stopped working, and because of a particularly last few years for Israel (Lebanon, Gaza bloodbath, Gaza siege, Gaza Flotilla, house demolitions, crushing non-violent dissent, apartheid wall, apartheid roads etc.) Israel has been in the news and it’s nearly all bad news.

        I had a similar experience with some friends where they know, or rather knew *nothing* about I/P. When the topic came up they felt uncomfortable because they couldn’t separate Israel from judaism and simply couldn’t fathom that [some] jews – ‘the victims of the holocaust’ – could be downright evil as some of Israel’s behaviour is. But over a period of time, from being a little turned on to the subject and putting 2 and 2 together they are now fully on board, highly critical of Israel’s behaviour and highly sympathetic to Israel’s victims.

        I keep saying we only need to keep telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and people will get on board. No need to assault people with half-truths or lies or idiot accusations – a la hasbara – merely tell the truth and let people investigate and decide themselves. It’s much more powerful that way. We are right, and we are moral. Trust that.

      • Mooser on June 19, 2012, 1:23 pm

        “He tells me that I’m “too obsessed with the Jews”,

        Maybe his uncle is right? Anyway, I can tell from his typing that he is, indeed, Jewish and from Mass. Can’t mistake that accent.

      • YoungMassJew on June 19, 2012, 2:13 pm

        I have a bit of a NY accent still as I grew up on the south shore (nice Italian neighborhood that I miss) of Long Island until I was 12. Then I moved to Mass to a town that is somethat Jewish, but not known as one of the main Jewish neighborhoods like Newton.

      • Mooser on June 19, 2012, 6:39 pm

        “I’m male, 22, and a newly converted, for lack of a better word, anti-Zionist individual from a reform Jewish background.”

        Ah! That explains everything, so clear, so natural.

        “I tell no lies.”
        Except for that one?

      • YoungMassJew on June 19, 2012, 11:00 pm

        What lies? I said it was my uncle who lied to me.

      • seafoid on June 20, 2012, 11:12 am

        These attempts to be someone else online come across as very contrived. Too much forced effort. The problem with Zionism is it takes up too many evenings.

      • YoungMassJew on June 20, 2012, 4:36 pm

        You’ve got to be kidding me seafoid. Why does everyone think I’m lying about my identity? Now you guys have forced me to reveal everything about my life cause I’m tired of defending myself. It wears me out. See below where I’ll elaborate: ( [sigh]

      • seafoid on June 20, 2012, 5:33 pm

        I think you’re from New Hampshire. I think it’s the accent.

      • Sumud on June 20, 2012, 10:13 pm

        Why does everyone think I’m lying about my identity?

        Not everyone.

        Anyway don’t worry about it – you can prove or disprove very little about yourself online unless you’re famous or infamous.

        Your online credibility rests on what you say, and if people doubt you’re being genuine – and you are – don’t worry it will sort itself in time.

        There is a history of bizarre zionist sock-puppets on MW and some of the locals are a bit-trigger happy, me-thinks.

    • Mooser on June 19, 2012, 6:13 pm

      “When I try to talk about the conflict with my highly educated uncle, who I would describe as a non-Zionist, he ignores me,”

      You think a guy like him has time to listen to a schmendrick like you?

      • YoungMassJew on June 19, 2012, 11:05 pm

        Stop trolling. Oh let me guess, the next thing you’re going to say is that I must have experienced such awful, awful anti-Semitism so I internalized all of it and that’s the reason I’m on this blog. People like you are very predictable.

      • YoungMassJew on June 19, 2012, 11:25 pm

        oh you weren’t being serious. You’re a good guy.

      • Mooser on June 21, 2012, 5:25 pm

        “You’re a good guy.”

        You know, I finally found a way to explicate what I dislike so much about Facebook and similiar “social networking” sites. They let turn people into their own sock-puppets.

        Give me the real thing, any day.

  6. American on June 18, 2012, 2:26 pm

    “”They say it’s complicated, but it’s not. It’s actually really simple.”..Phil’s wife

    Bravo Phil’s wife.
    Real intelligence ( to me at least) is the ability to see thru a convoluted problem and distill it to it’s core in a way even a child can understand.

    • seafoid on June 18, 2012, 4:39 pm

      The world’s most intractable conflict my a**. Justice is simple.

    • Citizen on June 18, 2012, 5:19 pm

      Yep, as simple as, “We need to defend Israel at all costs because only Israel is an insurance policy against the natural-born Jew Haters that arise in every generation of Gentiles in every country.”

      PS: Would the Jews have survived as a people over so many centuries without an IDF if no Gentiles ever helped them? They got kicked out, they went elsewhere, over and over again. Usually, where they went gave them more protection and opportunity than the average native.

      The very notion of a mere handful of “righteous gentiles” has to be the biggest insult ever. The test of virtue is power. Israel is giving a great example of how Jews help their Gentile brothers when the Jew has the power.

      • Ellen on June 19, 2012, 8:44 am

        Citizen,

        This sort of seems like the ‘ole meme: They got kicked out, they went elsewhere, over and over again.

        Jews like many groups moved on from time to time due to wars, new opportunities, social decay around them…whatever. Kicked out? When, where? Not even in Spain. I wrote about it here with citations, not at hand right now.

        Jews had a VERY high social standing in Spain and were smart enough and inside enough to get Queen Isabella (as the right hand man to the thrown was to get a Papal bull issued to allow the Jews to leave Spain, which was coordinated with the mythological date of the fall of the Temple) while the Church meanwhile went on it’s hysteric, paranoid and bestial rampages.

        Usually, where they went gave them more protection and opportunity than the average native.

        That part is true for sure, but does not fit the narrative and what we are all educated to believe.

        After leaving Spain, Jews were very welcomed into the Balkan. They brought skills, know-how to the backwaters. They were so welcomed that the first Temples were patronized and built by the Ottoman, Muslim rulers.

        When Jews left Russia and Poland to land in Ireland, they were welcome and quickly gained prominence and position. Then the communities were decimated as many left for Israel or greater opportunity. Like all, are missed. But were never kicked out.

        Chaim Herzog, the former President of Israel, was a Dubliner, his family most prominent and established in Ireland.

        Such details do not fit the narratives of perpetual victimization and persecution.

      • Citizen on June 19, 2012, 11:07 am

        Thanks for the added info, Ellen. Please send your sources the Jews were not simply kicked out of so many nations, such as Spain, but more were given privileged exit the natives did not get when the clamp down flourished on dissent.

      • Mooser on June 19, 2012, 1:27 pm

        It’s a lot easier to move a religion than it is people. Sure I know it sounds incredible, but sometimes people would become Jews. So the religion moves, as well as the people.
        There is no such thing as “the Jews”. Not that anyone would deny Mondoweiss an appellation which seems to be so necessary to it.

      • Citizen on June 19, 2012, 5:26 pm

        Right, Mooser, and so there is no appellation as “the Americans.” I get what I think is your point, which is that nobody speaks for all jews. The same can he said for what we hear daily, when US politicians speak for “we, the people” or America; yet the US regime does what it does in our name, in the name of all Americans, within USA borders (not quite the same as ) Israel does what it does in the name of all jews everywhere in the world.

      • Mooser on June 19, 2012, 6:45 pm

        “the Americans.”

        I would think that would be the appropriate appellation (if that’s the word I want) when talking about the government of the United States of America, and “the Americans” is often used to mean “US Armed Forces”. It could also be used to describe a previously delineated (I am totally for delineating appellations, no matter what anybody says!) group of people, as in a group of investors or say a contingent of passengers on a ship.

      • Ellen on June 20, 2012, 7:06 am

        Hi Citizen,

        The only point I want to make is that Jews, like other groups as well, have suffered exclusion, harassment of authorities, etc.

        (And Mooser is right, there is no such thing as “The Jews” is the scheme of everything.)

        I am surely not qualified to write history, but am just recounting F.E. Peters, a historian teaching at NYU. His two volumes on The Monotheists have a very factual discussion on the forces that came together in the Inquisition.

        Point is Jews had a good reason to leave Spain (and it was tragic) but they got permission for safe passage and there was a Messianic movement going on at the time and Abrabanel (the right hand to the throne) wanted to get permission for all Jews to leave together and give the expulsion messianic meaning.

        (There were and are always those who will take crisis to push other agendas, I guess.)

        From a March 2011 post:

        The Inquisition did not start against the Jews, but was against lapsed Catholics, and Conversios, and also directed against the Muslims with a vengeance as there was a religious war against Islam. (If we want to play the counting game there were eventually over 300 thousand Spanish Muslims — Christian/Moriscos — expelled from Spain, but only perhaps 40 thousand Jews. But we never hear about the Muslims who were thrown out.)

        Then when the Inquisition got in full force, and they were finished with the others, the Jews came into the scope of the insanity and paranoia of the times. (The new world was discovered, the Reformation emerging…times were frightening for the un washed masses. ) So the allegations of of blasphemy or magic were no different in motive than the witch burnings of women and girls going on in France at the very same time. It was a dangerous world for everyone!

        Jews held an extremely high position in Spanish Society, much more than the Muslims. (In fact throughout most all of Europe until the Reformation.)

        The highly placed right hand adviser to Isabella and Ferdinand — Isaac Abrabanel wrangled a deal with Isabella to allow for formal expulsion from Spain, and even got them to delay the date so it would fall on the ninth of the Jewish month of Ab to fall onto the same date as the anniversary of the destruction of the Jerusalem temple. This was to give it messianic meaning. “Abranel calculated that the messianic era would begin in 1503, when Israel would triumph and all Jews would live together in Eretz Israel under the Messiah.” ( Peters The Monotheist, Vol 1, pp 81. Abrabanel believed in the arrival of a Messiah by 1503. )

      • seafoid on June 20, 2012, 8:20 am

        “Israel does what it does in the name of all jews everywhere in the world.”

        That’s the equivalent of Jews everywhere signing off on unlimited liability for any act of Israel . And it should be refused everywhere because Israel is a monster.

      • Citizen on June 20, 2012, 1:55 pm

        You mean, Mooser, like “The Israelis,” or “The Germans,” etc? Yet it’s true, my old dog tags say “USA”

      • Mooser on June 21, 2012, 5:27 pm

        “You mean, Mooser, like “The Israelis,” or “The Germans,” etc? Yet it’s true, my old dog tags say “USA”

        Now you’re starting to get it. There is no way “The Jews” fits in with those usages.

      • LanceThruster on June 20, 2012, 12:04 pm

        The discussion of what Jews do with power always makes me think of this exchange between Elie Wiesel and Isaac Asimov.

        from: http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/03/asimov-on-antisemitism-and-wider-prejudice.html

        Although I was Jewish and poor as well, I benefited from the American education system at its best and attended one of its finest universities; I wondered, how many African-Americans would have had the same opportunity at that time? Denouncing antisemitism without denouncing human cruelty in general troubled me constantly. The general blindness was such that I heard Jews condemn unreservedly the phenomenon of antisemitism, and then without skipping a beat move on to the African-American question, and talk about it as if they were little Hitlers. If I pointed this out to them and objected strenuously, they turned on me. They were completely unable to see what they were doing.

        I once heard a lady speak passionately about the Gentiles who had done nothing to save the Jews of Europe. “You just can’t trust them”, she claimed.

        I let it pass for a while, and then I suddenly asked: “And what are you doing to help the Blacks achieve their civil rights?”

        “Listen”, she retorted. “I have enough problems of my own”.

        And I said: “That’s exactly what the Gentiles of Europe said”. I saw a complete lack of comprehension in her face. She couldn’t see what I was getting at. What can we do about it? The whole world seems to be permanently waving a banner that reads: “Freedom! … but not for others”.

        I publicly expressed my view on this only once, and in delicate circumstances. It was in May 1977. I was invited to a round-table discussion whose participants included Elie Wiesel, who survived the Holocaust and hasn’t spoken about anything else since. That day, he irritated me by claiming that you couldn’t trust academics, or technicians, because they had helped make possible the Holocaust. What a sweeping generalization that is! And precisely the kind of remark that antisemites might make: “I don’t trust Jews, because once, Jews crucified my Savior”.

        I let the others argue for a moment while I brooded over my resentment; then, unable to contain myself any longer, I spoke up: “Mr. Wiesel, you’re wrong; the fact that a group of people has suffered appalling persecution does not mean it is inherently good and innocent. All that the persecution proves is that this group was in a position of weakness. If the Jews were in a position of strength, who knows if they wouldn’t become persecutors?”

        To which Wiesel replied, very angrily: “Give me one example of the Jews persecuting anyone!”

        Naturally, I was expecting this. “At the time of the Maccabees, in the second century BCE, John Hyrcanus of Judea conquered Edom and gave the Edomites the choice of conversion to Judaism, or death. Not being idiots, the Edomites converted, but afterwards they were still treated as inferiors because even though they had become Jews, they were still originally Edomites”.

        Wiesel, even more upset, said: “There is no other example.”

        “There is no other period in history where Jews have exercised power”, I replied. “The only time they had it, they behaved just like the others.”

        That put an end to the discussion. I would add however that the audience was entirely on the side of Elie Wiesel.

      • Danaa on June 20, 2012, 1:00 pm

        lanceThruster – that’s a great story – I totally need to add to my files. Thanks for bringing it up in this context – things are indeed not so complicated….

      • seafoid on June 20, 2012, 1:07 pm

        the beginning of the end is in sight

        http://www.haaretz.com/business/the-lesser-evil-losing-egypt-or-losing-europe.premium-1.437174

        “In the end, Europe, and probably the euro, will pull through, but in the process both institutions will be chastened, discredited to a greater or lesser extent by the failure of the European model. That means Europe, for a generation or more, will not have the global standing it enjoyed in the post-war era.
        So what? There are a lot of people in Israel would say Europe was a poor friend to Israel and the fewer chidings we get from EU commissioners or human rights groups the better. But that is a failure to see the forest for the trees, I would say even the saplings.
        The bigger picture is that Europe has been Israel’s biggest trade partner, a supportive albeit critical friend and that Europe and Israel (more often than not) share values of democracy and human rights. A world system dominated by, let’s say China as the most likely candidate, will be much more Hobbesian place where military and economic might are paramount, and small countries are left to their own devices. ”

        GFY Israel !

  7. Citizen on June 18, 2012, 5:44 pm

    Here’s a bunch of photos of Gaza under attack today: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.455042854506024.110066.136633479680298&type=1

    I don’t know a single person personally who I could get to look at these photos.

  8. Abuadam on June 18, 2012, 7:25 pm

    Phil, I must correct your better half.
    We were NOT given half of the land, we were given (if you call it that) one third, even though we owned 93%.

    • optimistCitizen on June 19, 2012, 12:15 am

      AbuAdam,
      I think Phil’s wife was referring to the UN Partition Plan of 1947 which proposed to give a generous 45% to the Native population (Muslims, Christians etc) and a measly 55% to the Jewish population (which was about 34% of the total population at that time).

      • Citizen on June 19, 2012, 9:02 am

        optimistCitizen, that’s how I took what Phil’s wife said too. She just didn’t have the exact partition plan percentages in her head. An example of what Phil means when he says his wife does not carry around the facts or trees, but she always sees the aerial view of the forest very well.

    • Sumud on June 19, 2012, 1:26 pm

      We were NOT given half of the land, we were given (if you call it that) one third, even though we owned 93%.

      Abuadam ~ this has not been forgotten. The ziobots can’t seem to comprehend it, but that’s OK. It still won’t be forgotten.

  9. annie on June 18, 2012, 9:08 pm

    “They say it’s complicated, but it’s not. It’s actually really simple.”

    that’s what i tell people. because it’s true.

    • Kathleen on June 19, 2012, 11:03 am

      Israel needs to stop building illegal settlements in the West Bank and illegal housing in E Jerusalem. Abide by UN Resolutions and internationally recognized borders. Start there

  10. OlegR on June 19, 2012, 6:00 am

    Not even the shadow of a forest
    not to mention the trees.

    • eljay on June 19, 2012, 7:24 am

      >> Not even the shadow of a forest
      >> not to mention the trees.

      That’s because the forest and the trees have been wiped off the map and pushed into the sea to make way for the oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist Jewish state.

      • Citizen on June 19, 2012, 9:09 am

        Not to mention those replanted pine trees (that need a lot of scarce water) shipped from overseas for years with the coins from those white and blue cans always stuck in my face when I lived in Skokie, Illinois.

  11. on June 19, 2012, 10:18 am

    Why didn’t Phil’s friend reply to his wife: ‘But they were poor Hitler refugees, they had to go somewhere, how can you blame them?’ – That’s what a politically correct German would say.

    • on June 19, 2012, 10:58 am

      Oleg, do you agree? – Is that the historical forest, Phil’s wife missed? And is this forest real or imagined for the 6 million Israeli Jews.

    • Citizen on June 19, 2012, 11:14 am

      So, Klaus, how do you respond when faced with that reply? Do you go into factual details how the Jewish refugees were arrogant, aloof, controlling, and unneighborly, rather than what they should have been: grateful?

      • on June 19, 2012, 12:00 pm

        Citizen,
        I would just say: We could have had a ‘little Israel’ (no state) in Palestine for those who were already there before WW II, the refugees and the Jews from the post-WW II Displaced Person’s camps who wanted to emigrate to Palestine. – Some 800,000.

        But the Zionist concept was never just a refugee concept out of exigency, distress. It was and still is the concept of ingathering the Diaspora Jews, no matter whether they are somewhere persecuted or not. – That’s why they must expand and uproot the Palestinians.

        – Oleg himself said that his parents moved to Israel for ideological (and practical) reasons. He didn’t say they were refugees from Russia.

      • Citizen on June 19, 2012, 5:32 pm

        I agree with your observation, Klaus Bloemker. The Zionist enterprise is to use Gentile guilt and short-sighted strategic policy to enhance Jewish agenda, a copy from 19th Century Germany’s.

      • Mooser on June 19, 2012, 6:22 pm

        “enhance Jewish agenda”

        I’m sorry Citizen, but it seem I am not au courant with the “Jewish agenda”. Would you mind telling us what it is, or if it’s too long, provide a link to a site detailing the “Jewish agenda”.
        Is it anything like the “gay agenda”? I bet they have a lot of similarities

      • YoungMassJew on June 19, 2012, 11:14 pm

        If there was a “Like” button I would press it now.

      • Danaa on June 20, 2012, 1:04 pm

        Mooser – you are being unfair (ouch – you, of all people! the patron saint of fairness). There is no Jewish agenda other than Zionism and you know that’s what citizen meant. You’re just battening down the hatches to keep away the sippage (look – it’s still sipping in – there, under the cracks….that strange liquidy thing)

      • American on June 20, 2012, 2:02 pm

        Yea Mooser you do get touchy now and then.
        Look, I can see why you would and don’t blame you, I would too…….its hard to keep seeing Jewish,Jewish,Jewish connected all the time, and if you are Jewish, particulary not a zionist, it feels like you/they are getting unfairly beat over the head with it all the time.
        But I think you know what Citizen meant.

      • Citizen on June 20, 2012, 2:02 pm

        Mooser, in context of my comment, which itself was a response, I said “Jewish Agenda,” meaning, as I said, in context of “Zionist enterprise,” that is Jewish Zionists. We don’t care if you’re gay.

      • Mooser on June 21, 2012, 5:35 pm

        “There is no Jewish agenda other than Zionism “

        Oh really? Could you please point me to anything showing that the Zionist agenda was promulgated, discussed, a consensus reached, and finally ratified, either by universal Jewish plebiscite or the relevant governing bodies (why, that’s the same process the Methodists are struggling with now to put disinvestment in Israel on their agenda, so you have a comparable example) making Zionism the “Jewish agenda”.

  12. stevieb on June 19, 2012, 11:57 am

    Cheers for your wife, Mr.Weise. Well said, I thought…

    • Citizen on June 19, 2012, 5:35 pm

      Yeah it was, all in all. Phil’s lucky to have such a wife by example. Otherwise, his mother is the example he’s emotionally attached to… Anything Phil does or thinks independently sure does not come from his mother.

      • Mooser on June 19, 2012, 6:26 pm

        “Otherwise, his mother is the example he’s emotionally attached to… Anything Phil does or thinks independently sure does not come from his mother.”

        And I thought you were just a lawyer. You must be a courtroom double-threat, providing your own expert testimony on those sticky McNaughton questions.

      • AlGhorear on June 20, 2012, 12:36 am

        Actually, it’s the M’naghten rule. My criminal law professor had a question on our final where the answer was the M’naghten rule and if spelled incorrectly you got it wrong :).

        As always, fascinating conversation here today.

      • Citizen on June 20, 2012, 2:07 pm

        Nothing sticky about it, Mooser. Phil gave us the information about his mother’s POV. Too much for the Moose?

      • Citizen on June 21, 2012, 12:34 pm

        So, Mooser, you ranged in the old Catskill resorts, did you?

      • Mooser on June 21, 2012, 5:14 pm

        “Too much for the Moose?”

        Okay, you caught me! Yup, I have never liked the posts concerning Phil’s wife and/or Mother. There are basically two reasons:
        1) I wish he wouldn’t insult my intelligence by claiming to tell anything but a completely self-serving story when talking about his marriage and family. And it makes me fell icky to think that he just might not be doing so.

        2) The fact that he is willing to mention his family at all, that is, his willingness to provide two more targets for Zionists, makes me wonder if he really has an objective relationship with Zionism, or has thought through what he’s doing.

    • Mooser on June 19, 2012, 6:34 pm

      “Cheers for your wife, Mr.Weise.”

      I too, have heard only positive things about Mrs. Weise. A regular baleboosteh, everybody says so.

      • Citizen on June 20, 2012, 2:08 pm

        Last I heard, Mooser, Phil’s wife is not jewish. Why the yiddish term?

      • American on June 20, 2012, 3:22 pm

        O.K. boys let’s get off wives and mothers…..they aren’t fair game.
        Phil can say whatever he wants about his wife and his mother, but it’s not cricket for others to go there.

      • Mooser on June 21, 2012, 5:16 pm

        “Phil’s wife is not jewish.”

        Maybe so (I wouldn’t know) but on the other hand, Mrs. Weise is fairly devout.

      • Mooser on June 21, 2012, 5:19 pm

        “Phil can say whatever he wants about his wife and his mother, but it’s not cricket for others to go there.”

        So you’re giving him permission to lie? So he can only talk about it in his terms? And how come he never mentions sex?

  13. LanceThruster on June 20, 2012, 12:09 pm

    “They say it’s complicated, but it’s not. It’s actually really simple.”

    From the Norman Finkelstein & Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami Debate —

    “Since the mid-1970s, there’s been an international consensus for resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict. […] It’s called a two-state settlement, and a two-state settlement is pretty straightforward, uncomplicated. Israel has to fully withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza and Jerusalem, in accordance with the fundamental principle of international law, […] that it’s inadmissible to acquire territory by war. The West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem, having been acquired by war, it’s inadmissible for Israel to keep them. They have to be returned. On the Palestinian side and also the side of the neighboring Arab states, they have to recognize Israel’s right to live in peace and security with its neighbors. That was the quid pro quo: recognition of Israel, Palestinian right to self-determination in the West Bank and Gaza with its capital in Jerusalem. That’s the international consensus. It’s not complicated. It’s also not controversial.”

  14. YoungMassJew on June 20, 2012, 5:44 pm

    Hey everyone. So I’ve been basically forced to go into my whole life’s story because seafoid, Annie, and others don’t believe I’m being truthful about my identity. I was hoping not to have to do this, but since I’m anonymous I feel comfortable to reveal my past.

    Anyway, so I grew up on the South Shore of Long Island in a middle class predominately Italian-American neighborhood until I was 12 when my father got a job offer up in Massachusetts to live in a neighborhood with better public schools. I didn’t think the schools were bad, but he and my mother did. I only have positive memories of growing up as being part of one of the only Jewish families where both parents were from a Jewish background in this neighborhood. Sure most of my neighbors haven’t been exposed to Jewish people before, despite being 1 hour from NYC in this conservative Catholic town. But I had a fair amount of friends who didn’t mind me being Jewish and never talked about it. What’s very interesting is that in retrospect my good friend’s father across the street might have been somewhat anti-Semitic when my mother and I talk about him now. I think it might have been due to the fact that he didn’t get along with his Jewish boss at the airline he worked for, but I might be wrong. I do remember vividly, though, that when the topic of my grandparents came up in conversation, I would hear my good friend’s father in a back room of the house say loud and sarcastically “Oh (_grandfather’s name________ and _grandmother_name___” as if the obviously Jewish first name of my grandfather was funny to him. I was very lucky that my friend’s father never expressed his probable anti-Jewish sentiment directly at me as he knew what line not to cross. He even attended my Bar Mitzvah once I’ve moved up to Massachusetts, although he skipped the service and only went to the party afterwards. Someday I might move back to a neighborhood like that one as I miss my friends and the down to Earth attitude of the people there.

    So when I was 12, like I said, my dad moved my family to Massachusetts to a town that was somewhat Jewish, but not known as one of the main Jewish towns/cities in the state like Newton or Brookline. I didn’t and continue to not enjoy living here. During my school years, I did very well academically but struggled to make friends as I struggled with mild OCD, mild tics, and mild to moderate S.A.D. (social anxiety). I just wanted to finish high school and forget about my troubles. In fact, I was somewhat bullied on Facebook by Jewish kids and others for having stereotypical Jewish traits like anxiety as kids at my high school created a Facebook account of a fictional cousin of mine who looked like me. They basically googled a picture of a kid who happened to look like me at his Bar Mitzvah and copied and pasted it into Facebook to pretend like I was that awkward silent Jewish kid at his Bar Mitzvah with no life.

    This is what I mean when I stated before that I live on the margins. I mean that pretty literally. But I’ve always stayed aware of the world around me by following current events and never used these borderline offensive experiences to cloud my judgement concerning issues of Israel/Palestine. What I experienced wasn’t real anti-Semitism in the old-fasioned sense; rather, what I experienced was somewhat offensive comments and inappropriate staring. And this is why I am able to talk about issues concerning the pro- Zionist lobby as I do here, as well as under my real name through “provocative” status updates on Facebook. I was literally at rock bottom, even just a few months ago, and only recently have been able to deal with my mental issues. I’m kind of like Phil in the sense that I live in a bubble, but for different reasons as I’ve always been isolated and shunned. What’s interesting is that people make a big deal about how Jews are supposedly neurotic and anxious in the media. Me, I’ve hardly ever met any Jews with these traits. Just my family. So in a way, my mental illnesses has been a blessing in disguise, at least in terms of my work here as my OCD doesn’t allow me to tells lies as I’d feel guilty. lol That’s all I have to say for now.
    -YMJ

  15. Mooser on June 20, 2012, 6:05 pm

    “So I’ve been basically forced to go into my whole life’s story..”

    And you did it while I wasn’t here to read it. Thanks, I appreciate that.

    • ColinWright on June 20, 2012, 10:52 pm

      I missed whatever started all this, and frankly, I don’t care — but something about ‘YoungMassJew’ seems to bother you, Mooser.

      What is it?

      • Mooser on June 21, 2012, 5:00 pm

        “but something about ‘YoungMassJew’ seems to bother you, Mooser.”

        How could he bother me, since he so considerately saved his life story for a time when I wasn’t here to read it? Sure, maybe I was irritable, thinking I would be subjected to it, but he turned out to be surprisingly considerate. Besides, with a screen name like “YoungMassJew” what more do you need to know? If he wants to combine dahvaning with a colloquial Roman rite, I say more power to him! Nobody understood the old Latin Mass.

  16. YoungMassJew on June 20, 2012, 7:57 pm

    You need to relax buddy. I don’t get your humor nor your Yiddishisms. That’s for a different generation.

    • Mooser on June 21, 2012, 5:03 pm

      “You need to relax buddy. I don’t get your humor nor your Yiddishisms. That’s for a different generation.”

      Sure, maybe. But our day will come, if we just wait a while (thinking love and wearing a smile helps, too, or so I’ve heard) and we will replace all you old, senile, dodderers. When has your older generation ever been able to suppress the new? Besides, you know what they say: “Think Yiddish, dress British!”

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