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‘Peace Now’ characterizes Israeli non-Jews as outside of ‘mainstream’ public opinion

Israel/Palestine
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The other day I received a note from Yariv Oppenheimer, director of Peace Now, the liberal Zionist group in Israel, aimed at American Jews and trumpeting a new survey saying that Israelis are turning against the settlers, and the two-state solution is alive and kicking.

For many years, the settlement movement has sought to portray itself as the vanguard of ‘real’ Zionism. Simultaneously, Peace Now has worked to take back Israeli Zionism, and to show the Israeli public and the Jewish Diaspora that real Zionism is one that represents Jewish values of justice, democracy and peace. In truth, the settlement movement is a small, fanatically ideological movement which threatens Israel’s security, prosperity and its viability as a Jewish, democratic state.

Today I am excited to share with you some good news – news that is encouraging and energizing…..

This poll, by a group with the interests of settlers at heart, counters the assumptions that the Israeli mainstream supports settlements –an assumption that has led to resignation and hopelessness for many people in Israel and abroad. This is reason to feel hope.

Oppenheimer’s email came nearly a week after Dahlia Scheindlin at +972 wrote a thorough piece based on the same survey. She reached a very different conclusion. Her piece was titled, “Survey: Israeli Jews tolerate settlements, status quo.” Scheindlin:

A new survey released by Ariel-which-is-now-known-as-a-University, shows, remarkably, that the majority of Israeli Jews inside the Green Line are still basically wedded to settlements and barely register that they pose a problem…

there is little new other than the depressing realization yet again that the Israeli public and leadership are comfortably aligned in their complacency and general support for the status quo – which means, of course, unprecedented settlement growth until a two-state solution is impossible (if you don’t believe it’s impossible already) because, hey, settlements are really not a problem for peace or for Israelis. Palestinians don’t really factor in.

I can’t read the survey. It’s in Hebrew. But I would note right off the bat that Scheindlin says it is of Israeli Jews, and Peace Now never describes the data in that manner. It say it’s from the Israeli “mainstream.” Later Oppenheimer sums up the data as reflecting the attitudes “of the Israeli public” (as does Scheindlin). 

That “mainstream” characterization of selective data is on Americans for Peace Now’s website. Imagine how American Jews would feel if polls of Christian opinion were offered as evidence of “mainstream” American attitudes. Imagine how black people would feel if surveys of white people were offered as “mainstream.”

As to the stark discrepancy in interpretation between Scheindlin’s dark analysis of the numbers and Peace Now/Oppenheimer’s optimistic analysis, Peace Now  reflects the view of the authors of the survey: they also say that their numbers demonstrate a leftward shift.

Scheindlin disputes their claim. She has a graph showing that Israeli Jewish public opinion has changed little over the last four years, except 2012, when that public opinion shifted sharply to the right. Here’s her graph, then her analysis of same.

Scheindlins graph
Scheindlin’s graph

Scheindlin’s analysis:

On its own, the data is rich and interesting, and more extensive than I can cover here. But why the strained attempt to put a left-wing spin on it through selective comparison with 2012, which looks like an outlying survey – rather than looking at the longer-range data, or even the stand-alone figures? Do Ariel University researchers want to prove that Israeli Jews are the good guys, ready for two-state compromises? Or do these scholars want to show that they are prepared to report on trends that run counter to expectations about what a settlement university would want? Ultimately, the data so clearly exposes the people’s comfort with the status quo, as shown at the top – did they think no one would notice?

One thing is stable or even trending “leftward” from past years: according to their surveys, in 2009, 42 percent in total were prepared to evacuate some, most, or all of the settlements (“small number, large number, all”). In 2013, that total number is 51 percent – what I would call a measured rise since this is the highest percentage of all those years, beyond the margin of error (I am really assuming their previous studies also included only Israeli Jews inside the Green Line – otherwise, that would be an easy explanation for the change). I’ve seen and conducted surveys that asked questions in various ways about support for dismantling settlements (after the dismantling in 2005)  and gotten even higher support for evacuation.

The conclusion looking at trends over plenty of time is that were Israelis to be asked by their leaders to dismantle settlements – they may not like it, but they would do so. The bottom line remains: no one is asking, and they aren’t offering.

As Alex Kane and Mairav Zsonzein have pointed out in recent days, Israeli leaders have moved on from the two-state solution.

I have great respect for Peace Now for opposing the occupation so vigorously and so long– they still do great work on this score — and as an oppositional group inside American Jewish life. There are great liberal activists on the Peace Now board, people who have worked hard for human rights.

But the rosy Peace Now bulletin on this data strikes me as sounding a deep need on the part of liberal American Jews in their 50s to 80s to believe that a two state solution is still within our grasp, and that the Zionist dream of liberation from anti-Semitism is still alive. The reason our website exists is because many American Jews believe that Zionism is now an outdated ideology, and that liberal American Zionists need to confront the racism that is so inherent in the project. 

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About Philip Weiss

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51 Responses

  1. American
    American
    June 22, 2013, 1:29 pm

    “that real Zionism is one that represents Jewish values of justice, democracy and peace.”

    Gawd! What nonsense.
    The REAL zionism was based on the SEPERATION of Jews from the rest of the world and REPRESENTS the belief in eternal hostility re Jews – Others.
    HELLO??????…….what do they do not get about the fact that this has FAILED, has not and will not ever work.
    That ‘seperation and belief in eternal hostility’ is what has made Zionism the Ethnic Mafia that it is.
    With the eternal hostility as the basis for the Jewish seperation and the “being” of Zionism it was never going to turn out any other way.

    • piotr
      piotr
      June 23, 2013, 4:46 am

      It reminds me an attempt in 1960-ties to have “Communism with human face” which was supposed to be Marxism stripped of Stalinism and … one could repeat the phrase verbatim “representing Marxists values of justice, democracy and peace”., In some places this foolishness was curtailed with mass arrests etc. but in Czechoslovakia there was an additional need for brotherly help.

      The salient analogy is what does it mean to be Marxist (or Zionist)? In some contexts it means that you follow some principles, but when the ideology is the ruling ideology, it simply means that you are not one of “those” people who should be fired anyway.

    • ziusudra
      ziusudra
      June 24, 2013, 2:48 am

      Greetings American,
      I agree.
      What value polls & surveys?
      I don’t blame the people of any Country, whatever their views.
      It’s only those who have the power, have a dog in the fray, change the situation.
      Zionists & illegal squatter settlers make the decisions & the changes.
      Zionistan get its rent paid as a Vassal for big brother for being ‘on the front’!
      Squatter Settlers get their shekels for being on the ‘front/front’.
      They will turn against the Israelis when their priveleges are threatened.
      If I don’t blame the German People for Aryanism, the American People
      for Imperialism, why should I blame World Jewry for Zionism!
      World Jewry cannot stop Zionism, implosion will.
      ziusudra

  2. Sibiriak
    Sibiriak
    June 22, 2013, 1:41 pm

    Israeli leaders have moved on from the two-state solution.

    Nonsense. Israeli leaders were never, ever on board with a 2ss.

  3. ckg
    ckg
    June 22, 2013, 1:58 pm

    Thanks Phil for highlighting the reality that in this opinion poll, as in so many, only Jewish Israelis have a voice.

  4. seafoid
    seafoid
    June 22, 2013, 2:27 pm

    What is most interesting is that the majority of Jews in Israel don’t understand that the money that flows to the settlers should be spent on them, on their kids, on their society .

    Israel behind the green line has neglected infrastructure because all the money went to the Jews on the other side of the line

    http://www.haaretz.com/business/israel-s-poor-infrastructure-magnified-storm-s-damage-officials-say.premium-1.493022

    By Haaretz | Jan.10,2013 | 5:53 AM | 2
    “The storms continued to rage across Israel for a third day Wednesday, dropping rain, sleet and snow, with more in store for Thursday.
    But government officials and businesses were already at work toting up the cost of the damage and assigning blame to infrastructure they said failed to hold up under pressure from the biggest winter storm to hit in a decade.
    Flooding has so far caused some NIS 1 billion in damage because drainage systems operated by regional authorities under Agriculture Ministry regulation and supervision were improperly maintained, Shlomo Buhbut, chairman of the Local Authorities Union, said Wednesday.
    He called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to provide government assistance to local government.
    “A major overhaul of infrastructure by local government is needed,” Buhbut, also mayor of Ma’alot-Tarshiha, said in a letter to the prime minister. ”

    Shir Hever estimates total cost of the occupation to Israel at over 100 bn dollars
    But most Israeli Jews will never get that information.

  5. ckg
    ckg
    June 22, 2013, 2:43 pm

    Even in the darkest days of Jim Crow, I doubt any major U.S. newspaper had the gall of printing a white American opinion poll as a poll of Americans.

    • miriam6
      miriam6
      June 22, 2013, 3:21 pm

      ckg

      Half the Israeli population is Mizrahim.

      I.E. non- white- of -Arabic -extraction folks.

      Sorry to have to burst your Israel – is – an -alien white European non- Arabic- outpost- in -the -mid -east- bubble.

      Israell is very middle eastern.

      • tree
        tree
        June 22, 2013, 3:32 pm

        And there goes Miriam again, missing the point. The analogy ckg is referring to is a poll of Israeli JEWS being passed of as a poll of ISRAELIS.

        a poll of white Americans = a poll of Israeli Jews, in this instance. Or do I have to draw you a diagram for you to get the point?

        And if you think that Israel is very “middle eastern”, you might want to read Rachel Shabi’s “We Look Like the Enemy”, or perhaps question why discrimination against Arabs ( and sometimes even against Arab Jews) is so rampant in Israel.

      • ckg
        ckg
        June 22, 2013, 5:09 pm

        Thx tree.

      • Darcha
        Darcha
        June 23, 2013, 8:50 am

        Actually, I think miriam’s answer could go in the science books under ‘First Attested Example of Hasbara Galvanic Response’.

      • ckg
        ckg
        June 22, 2013, 3:43 pm

        This has nothing to do with extraction. Most Israeli opinion polls either ignore or marginalize non-Jewish opinion.

      • NormanF
        NormanF
        June 22, 2013, 4:19 pm

        Exactly. Israel is a majority non-white society and is the most assimilated society in the world. Most Israeli Jews look like Arabs and you can’t tell them apart.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        June 23, 2013, 9:52 am

        Israel is a majority non-white society and is the most assimilated society in the world.

        At least as far as apartheid states go anyway right Norman?

      • pjdude
        pjdude
        June 24, 2013, 10:25 pm

        right. somehow I doubt that. Israeli jews and arabs are very easy to tell apart. the attitude and actions are completely different.

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        June 22, 2013, 5:00 pm

        “Sorry to have to burst your Israel – is – an -alien white European non- Arabic- outpost- in -the -mid -east- bubble.”

        Do tell us about Israel’s trade links in the region.
        And how many Israelis travel to neighbouring countries each year.

      • jon s
        jon s
        June 23, 2013, 6:41 am

        seafoid,
        Israel’s trade links can be found here:
        http://www1.cbs.gov.il/reader/fr_trade/ftmenu_e_v1_new.htm

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        June 23, 2013, 10:12 am

        According to the Economist, Israel’s most important export markets in order of magnitude are

        The US
        Belgium
        Hong Kong
        Germany
        UK

        These countries cover 70% of Israel’s exports.
        Which of these countries is in the Levant?

        If Ben Gurion airport and the Med ports were put out of action Israel’s economy wouldn’t survive more than a few months.

      • June 23, 2013, 9:35 am

        The Semitic Jews are very much second class citizens in Israel.

        All one needs to do is think of the 50 to 100 Israelis we somewhat educated Americans are familiar with. The realize every Israeli prominent enuff to be known by the world community is a Ashkenazi.

      • Yitzgood
        Yitzgood
        June 23, 2013, 12:40 pm

        every Israeli prominent enuff to be known by the world community is a Ashkenazi

        The Sefardi Chief Rabbis tend to be more prominent than the Ashknazi ones. Think of Rav Ovadya Yosef and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu. Also, what about Shaul Mofaz?

      • Cliff
        Cliff
        June 23, 2013, 1:54 pm

        many of them are fanatically racist against Arabs

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        June 24, 2013, 8:46 am

        That’s 3 out of 2.5 million. We need more data from you.

  6. German Lefty
    German Lefty
    June 22, 2013, 3:43 pm

    I can’t read the survey. It’s in Hebrew.
    Seriously? You don’t speak Hebrew? That’s a surprise. However, I hope that you do speak some other foreign language.

    I have great respect for Peace Now for opposing the occupation so vigorously and so long
    Opposing the occupation is NOT enough. Peace is NOT enough. There must be justice.

    The reason our website exists is because many American Jews believe that Zionism is now an outdated ideology
    It has already been an outdated ideology before Israel was founded.

  7. German Lefty
    German Lefty
    June 22, 2013, 3:45 pm

    By the way, did anyone read this yet?
    “US cuts military aid to Israel by five percent”
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/us-cuts-military-aid-to-israel-by-5/

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      June 23, 2013, 6:43 am

      @ German Lefty

      That’s 5% cut in US annual $3.1 Billion (due to be raised to $4.1 Billion in a few years)

      Unaffected is some $220 million Obama has budgeted for the short-range Iron Dome missile defense system.
      Appropriators in the U.S. House of Representatives have approved that sum, as well as an increase to $270 million of Obama’s $173 million request for missile defense cooperation programs separate from Iron Dome.

      Read more: http://forward.com/articles/179117/netanyahu-wont-fight-sequester-cut-in-us-aid/#ixzz2X2CS5qVI

      • German Lefty
        German Lefty
        June 23, 2013, 7:56 am

        That’s 5% cut in US annual $3.1 Billion (due to be raised to $4.1 Billion in a few years)
        That was my point. It’s just a tiny cut.

        From the article:
        Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had instructed Israeli officials in Washington, DC, to not ask the US government for an exception from the fiscal measures, according to Maariv. Speaking in DC, Ambassador Michael Oren said Thursday, “Israel did not seek an exception. We are willing to share in the burden.”
        This sounds as if not asking for an exception is a majorly generous act by the Israeli government. As if it’s the USA’s duty to provide Israel with aid and the Israeli government gives up 5% of this aid in a burst of generosity.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        June 23, 2013, 9:55 am

        Meanwhile, Israel is asking for the 2014 aid to be paid in advance.

  8. NormanF
    NormanF
    June 22, 2013, 4:15 pm

    Steven Plaut points out the two state solution is really a sham because only Israel is asked to grant democracy and independence to the Arabs. The world has never had a problem tolerating Arab tyrannies. Palestinians are not going to be free regardless of whether they are ruled by Israel or they rule themselves. There is no democracy in the Arab World and while Arab regimes do stage elections, as every one knows, they are for show:

    Dear B:

    You say that Israel will have no choice but to implement the “two-state solution,” allowing the “Palestinians” to have their own state alongside Israel. If not implemented, Israel will have to absorb the millions of “Palestinians,” thus giving them the right to vote and be elected inside Israel itself. You say that any other alternative must be ruled out as unjust because it will leave the Palestinians with no right to vote and run for office, and you say the world will not tolerate a situation in which “Palestinians” are denied the right to vote. SO Israel either has to absorb them and allow them to vote in Israel or give them their own state where they will have the right to vote.

    The problem with your suggestion is that “Palestinians” will still not have the right to vote even if they are granted their own state in your “two-state solution.” If a situation must be ruled out as intolerable as long as it involves denial of a right to vote to “Palestinians,” then you must rule out any “Palestinian state.” Arabs do not have the right to vote in REAL elections, in fair and open elections, in any Arab country. The world has never had any problem tolerating that! Arabs CERTAINLY do not have such a right in Gaza’s Hamastan, and any West Bank “state” would be no better. Sure, Arab regimes hold empty make-pretend for-show Potemkin “elections” but never real elections, Jimmy Carter’s approval notwithstanding. So any implementation of your two-state “solution” would leave the “Palestinians” with no real right to vote and no real civic rights of citizenship in “Palestine.”

    Therefore if Israel refuses to grant the “Palestinians” Israeli citizenship, refuses to grant them the right to vote in Israel, and also refuses to allow them to have their own state, then just how are those “Palestinians” any WORSE off with regard to the right to vote and participate in civic society than they would be in any “Palestinian state”??

    Cordially,

    Steve Plaut

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      June 23, 2013, 7:17 pm

      Steven Plaut points out the two state solution is really a sham because only Israel is asked to grant democracy and independence to the Arabs.

      Steven Plaut is a right wing nutcase who makes even Dershowitz look reasonable.

      The world has never had a problem tolerating Arab tyrannies.

      Including Israel, which actually prefers them to Arab democracies, which can’t be bought off or corrupted by Washington on their behalf. Israel and Saudi Arabia are practically allies.

      When Mubarak was being overthrown, talking head after talking head appeared on cable news admitting that democracy is fine and dandy EXCEPT when inconvenience for Israel.

      The problem with your suggestion is that “Palestinians” will still not have the right to vote even if they are granted their own state in your “two-state solution.”

      The problem is your attention deficit. 2006 saw a democratic vote in Gaza, and what did Israels do? It bombed them for voting the wrong way.

  9. riyadh
    riyadh
    June 22, 2013, 4:19 pm

    Anybody watch World War Z? Great symbolism in there. Israel builds a wall around Jerusalem to keep out the “zombies.”

    • ritzl
      ritzl
      June 23, 2013, 3:03 am

      It was written by Max Brooks, Mel Brooks’ son.

      I don’t know enough about Max Brooks’ Zionist sentiments, one way or the other, but there is a reasonable chance that it is not symbolism. It may well be thinly-veiled, reinforcing ‘environmental’ propaganda.

    • Cliff
      Cliff
      June 23, 2013, 3:30 am

      Written by Max Brooks

      In his book Arabs think the zombie disease is an israeli ploy

      So he is a Zionist and the movie has an IDF soldier saving the world with Brad Pitt

      Crappy zombie movie in and of itself, but to inject Brand Israel into it made it especially awful

  10. German Lefty
    German Lefty
    June 22, 2013, 6:12 pm

    In truth, the settlement movement is a small, fanatically ideological movement which threatens Israel’s security, prosperity and its viability as a Jewish, democratic state.

    Yeah, right! The settlements are bad for … Israel, not for the Palestinians whose land was stolen and whose water is used up by the settlers!

  11. ckg
    ckg
    June 22, 2013, 9:30 pm

    Indeed. Let’s see a poll of non-hispanic whites about immigration reform. Even better, let’s see a poll of straights about marriage equality. Or fundamentalists about Inteligent Design.

    • German Lefty
      German Lefty
      June 23, 2013, 5:25 am

      Even better, let’s see a poll of straights about marriage equality.
      In Germany, we’d get an approval of around 70%. So, what are you trying to say?

      • ckg
        ckg
        June 23, 2013, 2:56 pm

        you’re right Lefty. bad example.

  12. yourstruly
    yourstruly
    June 22, 2013, 9:59 pm

    So there’s a poll that suggests that that the Zionist colonizers are ready for a two state settlement with the voluntary return of at least portion of the land they stole from its indigenous people, the Palestinians? Voluntarily return colonized land to its rightful owners? A nice thought but is there any precedent for such magnanimous behavior on the part of the colonizer? Did the British, for example, voluntarily return any of the land they stole from the indigenous people of their colonies; or there successors in this crime, the americans, did they return any of those stolen lands? And the French with their many colonies, were any voluntarily returned to the natives; or the Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch and German colonies, now which of these were voluntarily returned to their respective indigenous peoples? Not a one, right? Yet some Zionists believe that Jewish settlers are nearing the moment when they’ll agree to return a piece of their stolen land to its rightful owners? And never mind the more than sixty years during which these Zionists, so insatiable is their appetite, have been steadily chewing away and digesting more & more of the Palestinian homeland. But if not voluntarily returning it, what? Forced to do so, by a combination of resistance from within the stolen land in the form of something resembling Intifada I, plus external pressure from BDS along with widespread and intensifying popular resentment towards an entity whose brutal colonial practices pose a threat not only to the Palestinian people but to all living beings.

  13. jon s
    jon s
    June 23, 2013, 12:01 am

    Two comments here:
    1. The poll is significant , especially because it concentrated on the Jewish population. Finding that the Palestinian-Israeli population opposes the settlements wouldn’t be particularly surprising or news-worthy. Polls often focus on specific ethnic groups. I’ve seen numerous polls of Jewish-Americans, African-Americans, Latino-Americans…
    2. Phil needs to work on his Hebrew.

    • German Lefty
      German Lefty
      June 23, 2013, 5:28 am

      Polls often focus on specific ethnic groups. I’ve seen numerous polls of Jewish-Americans, African-Americans, Latino-Americans…
      But then the media don’t pretend that this survey represents the entire population.

    • Donald
      Donald
      June 23, 2013, 9:21 am

      “The poll is significant , especially because it concentrated on the Jewish population. Finding that the Palestinian-Israeli population opposes the settlements wouldn’t be particularly surprising or news-worthy.”

      But it doesn’t show that the Jewish population opposes the settlements. A significant minority thinks it’s a waste of money. Only about 20 percent see them as illegal or as “source of I/P conflict”, which means that the vast majority share rightwing delusions on this.

    • eljay
      eljay
      June 23, 2013, 9:57 am

      >> 1. The poll is significant , especially because it concentrated on the Jewish population. Finding that the Palestinian-Israeli population opposes the settlements wouldn’t be particularly surprising or news-worthy.

      Finding that the majority of the Jewish-Israeli population doesn’t consider the colonization of Palestine to be illegal isn’t surprising either: It merely confirms that Jewish-Israelis are hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists.

      2. Phil needs to work on his Hebrew.

      Why? He’s not Israeli.

      • eljay
        eljay
        June 23, 2013, 4:50 pm

        >> It merely confirms that Jewish-Israelis are hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists.

        Correction: It merely confirms that the majority of Jewish-Israelis are hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists.

  14. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    June 23, 2013, 11:02 am

    Donald- If I was to choose why I oppose the settlements I would not choose the formulations of “illegal” or “source of I/P conflict”. I would say, they were a mistake from the start that didn’t take into account the effect they would have on the overall public face of Israel. They create an unfairness to the Palestinians. The specific phraseology of “illegal” or “source of the I/P conflict”- well, I leave the word illegal for others on this web site. And there are other sources to the I/P conflict. So I wouldn’t sign up for those questions so quickly, but I want to get rid of 95% of the west bank tout de suite.

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew
      June 23, 2013, 11:18 am

      Actually Donald, I usually use other phrases in describing the occupation of the west bank and the settlements, not necessarily as p.r. oriented as “public face of Israel” although possibly meaning the same thing “looks like apartheid”. but illegal is not a word I would use and certainly not “source of the I/P conflict”.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      Maximus Decimus Meridius
      June 23, 2013, 2:55 pm

      ”I would say, they were a mistake from the start that didn’t take into account the effect they would have on the overall public face of Israel. ”

      Right. So the primary problem isn’t that the ‘settlments’ are a war crime which have caused misery for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians but that they have a negative ”effect …. on the overall public face of Israel.”

      But then Israeli ‘mistakes’ are never regretted for the suffering they cause to mere Palestinians, but for the PR problems they create for Israel. Exactly proves the point I was making just a few days ago, so thank you.

      • eljay
        eljay
        June 24, 2013, 7:30 am

        >> So the primary problem isn’t that the ‘settlments’ are a war crime which have caused misery for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians but that they have a negative ”effect …. on the overall public face of Israel.”

        The Zio-supremacist mind is truly astounding, isn’t it? Zio-supremacist Jews deliberately planned to create a supremacist “Jewish State” in Palestine. They deliberately used terrorism and ethnic cleansing to realize it. They deliberately engaged in a 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder in order to maintain and expand it.

        But to Zio-supremacists, these deliberate, unjust, immoral and ON-GOING acts are just “a mistake” that create “an unfairness”.

        When Palestinians retaliate against these deliberate acts of occupation, terrorism, ethnic cleansing, land theft, torture, oppression, supremacism and hatred, there are no mistakes or unfairnesses. The Palestinians are not given the benefit of the doubt. There is only anti-Semitism! and terror(ism)! and Jewish suffering! and [“Remember] the Holocaust[!”™] and viledirtyjewhatingarabs!

        It’s truly astounding, and very Zio-supremacist.

  15. quirx
    quirx
    June 23, 2013, 11:59 am

    This is slightly but not totally OT, so I apologize in advance. One way that Israeli Jews and supporters have been able, thus far, to influence or affect various online polls is this handy little program called GIYUS (Give Israel Your Unconditional Support) [link to giyus.org]. Once installed, there appear pop-up type notifications to the user about an online poll involving Israel with a link to go to the poll and vote.

    While this is not strictly unethical, it goes to show how organized the Hasbara brigade (paid and unpaid) has become. I have never seen nor read about any degree of organization or methods on behalf of Palestine, so it is no wonder that online opinion polls, especially regarding Americans’ support for Israel, are so skewed and don’t seem to reflect the real views of the general populace.

  16. Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    June 23, 2013, 3:01 pm

    ”The conclusion looking at trends over plenty of time is that were Israelis to be asked by their leaders to dismantle settlements – they may not like it, but they would do so. The bottom line remains: no one is asking, and they aren’t offering.”

    Exactly. The question is so vague and hypothetical as to be completely meaningless. The fact is that not a single mainstream Israeli party has ever seriously attempted to dismantle any of the ‘settlements’ (the ‘illegal outposts’ don’t count). Since Israel, at least for its Jewish citizens, is a democracy, it’s surely fair to say that if there was a genuine groundswell of opinion in Israel that the ‘settlments’ had to go, then surely this would be reflected in the parties they vote for. In fact, Israelis overwhelmingly choose pro-settlement parties, and have not created any alternative.

    Saying that they would agree to the evacuation of the ‘settlements’ IF the politicians were to ask them, means nothing, because the know damn well that no Israeli politician is ever going to attempt such a thing, and the voting public is certainly not going to demand it of them. So while many Israelis may not be pro-settlement in an ideological sense, practically speaking, it makes little difference.

    • Sibiriak
      Sibiriak
      June 24, 2013, 2:22 am

      So while many Israelis may not be pro-settlement in an ideological sense, practically speaking, it makes little difference.

      Actually, I think it makes a huge difference. It means the Israeli Jewish population does NOT see the dismantling of some or all of the settlements as an existential threat. On the other hand, they DO see the loss of a Jewish majority in Israel as such a threat. This means it would be far easier, practically speaking, to FORCE Israel to remove settlements than force a 1SS on them.

  17. ivri
    ivri
    June 23, 2013, 5:28 pm

    “American Jews in their 50s to 80s”
    Making age-bracket based distinctions as a basis for extrapolation into the future can be hugely misleading. That is simply so because people change their mind as they get older – a lot in life is age-dependent. Just compare the views of 80+ years old on romantics with those under 20… If you just could count those that as students marched as idealists on social-economic issues and 2-3 decades later drive a Mercedes into a cruise boat….

    • seafoid
      seafoid
      June 24, 2013, 8:53 am

      “If you just could count those that as students marched as idealists on social-economic issues and 2-3 decades later drive a Mercedes into a cruise boat….”

      As students they were anti racism in the US and now they support Jewish apartheid? I don’t think so.
      Socio economic thinking is not the same as toleration of racist arseholes.

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