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Separating anti-Semitism from anti-Zionism

Middle East
on 65 Comments

The Israeli Zionist ministry of propaganda has successfully blurred the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. With clever adeptness and manipulation they have succeeded in spreading a form of domestic terror to Europe and the United States. This form of terrorism as defined by the Thesaurus is “the calculated use of violence or threat of violence to civilians in order to attain goals that are religious or political or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation, coercion or instilling fear.” Use of the Holocaust as propaganda invites fear and hysteria.

Netanyahu drew thunderous applause that followed the words loudly proclaimed as if he owned them: “Never Again.” I felt sick as he spoke of the deadly rise of anti-Semitism, a hatred of Jews bound together with the destruction of Israel. “Never Again,” a powerful and highly charged statement, was used here to create a lie in the suppression of the crimes of Israeli Zionism, covered up and justified as a means to “defend itself.” What? To defend itself from a repeat of Hitler’s program to rid Europe of all Jews? Is that the vision of a Jewish State only, a place of safety for all Jews to be protected from a hostile world, with walls, and born from the blood of apartheid and ethnic cleansing? Is this not insanity to pursue an agenda with complete disregard to human values except for Jews?

Now as Europe and the United States struggle to wake up, to question the blind support of Zionist Israel, those who speak out and say “No,” continue to be vilified. Israel’s shouts of anti-Semite are attempts to drown dissent. Can one really believe there still exists the possibility of another incarnation of the Nazi Holocaust? Is this not designed for empathy and support from those who still fantasize the lost dream of Israel as a beacon of light? It is not difficult to observe the strong emotional responses, particularly in Jews and Germans, upon hearing reference to the ashes of the Holocaust as a justification for Israel to “defend itself. ” “Never again” would refer to a justification to commit atrocities against Palestinians for the past 70 years. It must stop.

As the memory of the Holocaust is ignited, cries of “anti-semite” grow and create fear. Useful for the purpose of taking the focus off internal brutal assaults, land stealing, apartheid and ethnic cleansing, it is a distortion in my view and obscures the genesis of a new rise of anti-Semitism in the last decade. True anti-Semites hate Jews. Rising up against Israel is about standing against an ideological, nationalistic and racist government.

I feel particularly as Jews we have a responsibility to remain vigilant and to speak out against victimization. The pursuit of a just society is a fundamental concept of Judaism, which teaches involvement and concern with the plight of our fellow human beings. Every life is sacred and we are obligated to do what we can to help others. The Torah states, “neither shalt thou stand idly by the blood of thy neighbor.“ (Lev. 19:16) There is nothing anti-Semitic about speaking out against the suffering perpetrated on the lives of Palestinians.

The distinction between Zionism and Judaism remains in constant need of clarification and discussion. Fanatics closed to discussion believe in their moral superiority and create political terror so as to silence and deny. The charge of “delegitimizing Israel “ requires one to question what the Israeli government is hiding and whether Israel has not delegitimized itself through decades of illegal human rights abuses. I believe these abuses have contributed profoundly to the rise of true anti-Semitism in the world today.

 

Lillian Rosengarten
About Lillian Rosengarten

Lillian Rosengarten is author of the book “Survival and Conscience: From The Shadow Of Nazi Germany To The Jewish Boat To Gaza."(October 2015, Just World Books) It has been published in German. (Zambon 7/14). She can be contacted through her website, lillianrosengarten.com

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65 Responses

  1. just
    just
    March 12, 2015, 1:57 pm

    Powerful, true, hugely important, and refreshing to read.

    “Now as Europe and the United States struggle to wake up, to question the blind support of Zionist Israel, those who speak out and say “No,” continue to be vilified. Israel’s shouts of anti-Semite are attempts to drown dissent.”

    Precisely. I, for one, am sick of it. I won’t be silenced, either.

    I read a fascinating and wide- ranging article this morning about B’Tselem that includes this bit:

    “When I asked El-Ad whether he thought a moral society in Israel could remain Jewish, it was the closest I ever saw him to expressing anger. “I think the narrowing of Jewish identity to demographics – that’s profoundly un-Jewish,” he snapped. “When you build a wall in this city to expunge, reject, thousands of people on a demographic basis, that’s un-Jewish.”

    “What is Jewish?” I asked.

    “Treating people with dignity,” he answered. “I think that’s enough.””

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/12/the-battle-to-be-israels-conscience

    Thank you, Lillian. Very much.

    • philweiss
      philweiss
      March 12, 2015, 2:16 pm

      Thank you for that El-Ad stuff, Just. He hinted as much when he was in NY with Lisa Goldman

      • just
        just
        March 12, 2015, 4:11 pm

        He’s an interesting fellow. B’Tselem has done such great work in an increasingly difficult and hostile climate.

  2. eljay
    eljay
    March 12, 2015, 2:12 pm

    I continue to respect and admire Ms. Rosengarten.

    Can one really believe there still exists the possibility of another incarnation of the Nazi Holocaust?

    Murderous violence has always been and will always be a possibility, and not just against Jewish people but also against women, homosexuals and others.

    The just and moral solution to persecution has never been and should never be the creation of a supremacist state for each group of persecuted people, but the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality.

    • bilal a
      bilal a
      March 12, 2015, 2:56 pm

      Yes another incarnation of the Nazi Holocaust could, and most likely will, happen, albeit in its most common historical form, ie entrepreneurial mob justice, death squads ethno-religious pogroms with all their barbarity, and sometimes supported by SS special units, artillery.

      But this time it won’t be the Jews, gays, and cosmopolitans in the camps, ghettoes. or on the Lithuanian killing fields.

      Rather their perceived enemies.

      Gaza is but a rehearsal

  3. pabelmont
    pabelmont
    March 12, 2015, 3:00 pm

    When 9/11 made Americans ready to become overly fearful, we readily acquiesced in the destruction of what little remained of our “civil rights” — protection from unreasonable searches and seizures is about gone now, Thanks you PATRIOT ACT and NSA.

    Similarly, the holocaust made Jews everywhere ready to be overly fearful. I say “overly” because Israel vilifies Hamas for (alleged) holocaust-like thoughts just as if Hamas were powerful enough to carry them out — and them attacks Hamas just as if there were a real danger.

    Jews (and not only in Israel) forgot all decent tenets of Jewish religion or Jewish life and replaced them all with a SPARTAN ethos of war, war, war, destruction of anyone who might be labelled an enemy, etc. (The USA is not far different. How did Iraq “threaten” the USA or even American “interests” to justify the recent Iraq war? and how does threatening USA interests justify aggressive war anyhow? no-one asks any more!)

    Thank you Lillian.

  4. March 12, 2015, 3:02 pm

    Murderous violence has always been and will always be a possibility, and not just against Jewish people but also against women, homosexuals and others.

    “Others”? Like the indigenous peoples of the Americas, Australia, the Pacific Islands, New Zealand, Africa. Each of whom were the object of centuries of genocide, unlike any of those groups you mention.

    Also unlike those three groups you mention, they do not have a powerful “Lobby” working on their behalf.

    • eljay
      eljay
      March 12, 2015, 3:17 pm

      || Giles: “Others”? Like the indigenous peoples of the Americas, Australia, the Pacific Islands, New Zealand, Africa. Each of whom were the object of centuries of genocide, unlike any of those groups you mention. ||

      Yup.

      || Also unlike those three groups you mention, they do not have a powerful “Lobby” working on their behalf. ||

      A powerful lobby is no guarantee of security. And while Zio-supremacists may be doing something for “the Jews” today – regardless of whether or not “the Jews” want it done for them – I have no doubt that they would without hesitation throw “the Jews” under the bus in order to save their own skins.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 13, 2015, 1:11 am

        Remember, in America, and I believe in most of the Western countries “Jewish” is a matter of individual self-identification, not a category imposed by the power-that-be.

        If “Jewish leaders” no matter what form they take, ask too much, or compromise the Jewish people too much, they can leave off identifying themselves as a Jew, or modify their Jewishness to any degree they like. The “Jewish community” has no disciplinary powers. Not unless Gentiles co-operate, and this they don’t seem disposed to do anymore.

      • March 13, 2015, 3:21 pm

        The Lobby does not make them safe in the long run.

        It does give them a megaphone to scream about their status as victim and to pressure pols to do their bidding. This applies to Zionist Jews and the organized Gay Lobby.

        Both groups have been victimized in the past, but nothing like blacks and the indigenous people. I am not downplaying what those groups have gone thru historically (as have many others), but they are far from the most put upon people on our planet

        If you want to determine who are the victims of the societal structure, take a look at where such groups are today in terms of economics and political power.

        Those real victims, blacks, indigenous peoples, etc., have no such megaphone and do not get to consistently be portrayed as victims in the mainstream media, do not build memorials to their victimhood in every major city in the USA.

  5. MHughes976
    MHughes976
    March 12, 2015, 4:53 pm

    I think of anti-Semitism as prejudice against at least some things characteristically Jewish, so it can be manifest long before the stage of stark hatred is reached. I think of anti-Zionism as rejection of claims to exclusive Jewish rights in Palestine. Anti-Zionism can be completely rational, so not be a form of prejudice, so not be anti-Semitic.
    Negative sentiments, even hatred, directed against some people who are in fact Jewish need not be anti-Semitic if they are rational sentiments, ie respond to wrongs done by those persons. Just as the same feelings, even hatreds, directed against non-Jewish people need not spring from anti-Gentile prejudice if those persons have really done wrong.
    It is quite possible for an anti-Semite to be a Zionist – he may think that what is wrong with the Jewish condition arises from Jews’ having often been strangers in our midst and that Zionism has a chance of putting these things right. It is also quite possible for someone who has a strong admiration for the contribution made by Jewish people in our midst to regret Zionism because it reduces that contribution.

    • Stephen Shenfield
      Stephen Shenfield
      March 12, 2015, 6:59 pm

      “It is quite possible for an anti-Semite to be a Zionist – he may think that what is wrong with the Jewish condition arises from Jews’ having often been strangers in our midst and that Zionism has a chance of putting these things right.”

      Herzl himself initiated the tactic of appealing to anti-Semites to support Zionism. He went off to Russia to see Plehve, the interior minister and a notorious anti-Semite, and tell him: “I understand that you want to be rid of your Jews. I can help you achieve that. Help me to help you.” And Plehve listened and helped. Some of Herzl’s colleagues in the nascent Zionist movement were shocked by this tactic, but the collaboration between Zionists and anti-Semites continued and expanded.

      The politics of the issue of allowing Soviet Jews to emigrate to Israel is indicative in this regard. There was a Palestinian student in Moscow who tried to persuade influential Soviet figures to block Jewish emigration. He got nowhere, especially with the Russian nationalists, who told him: “We too don’t like the Jews and for that reason we are glad to be rid of them.” Conversely, a lot of the opposition to allowing Jews to leave came from officials who were not in the least anti-Semitic and did not want to lose the contribution that Soviet Jews made to the country’s economy, science and culture.

    • Pixel
      Pixel
      March 12, 2015, 9:48 pm

      @MH

      Bu..bu..bu..but there ARE exclusive Jewish rights in Palestine!

      Didn’t you hear that they JUST stumbled upon a hoard of old-looking, round metalish-looking things with a lot of dirt of them, way back in a dark cave.

      It was so odd. They were sitting RIGHT there on top, as if our ancient ancestors had dropped them there, yesterday!!

      RIGHT AWAY, they knew they were coins over 2,000 years old!!!

      You see, it IS our land, it’s ALWAYS been our land, and WE have to protect it, no matter WHAT. We need a REALLY strong leader to help us do that and there’s only ONE person here who can.

      [Vote Bibi]

      http://www.coinnews.net/2015/03/11/ancient-coins-found-in-israel-cave/

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        March 13, 2015, 4:18 pm

        The nice thing about ancient Judaean coinage is that it seems to support a rather multicultural vision of what things were like around the time when money began to be used.

    • Keith
      Keith
      March 13, 2015, 7:09 pm

      MHUGHES976- “I think of anti-Semitism as prejudice against at least some things characteristically Jewish….”

      I would suggest that when used by Zionists and other organized Jews, it has a much darker meaning. As used by these overlapping groups, anti-Semitism is tied in with Jew hatred, pogroms and the Holocaust. As such, anti-Semitism is widely believed by many Jews as an indicator of real danger. This becomes part of the siege mentality which Zionists seek to foster on Jews as a key component of group solidarity. Therefore, casual references to mild prejudice as anti-Semitism is likely to be misinterpreted. My own view is that real anti-Semitism is a relatively insignificant problem which is wildly overemphasized on Mondoweiss.

      Norman Finkelstein has, I think, a realistic assessment of the relative “danger” of anti-Semitism: “Jews are tapped into the networks of power and privilege,” he said. “You marry a Jew, it opens doors,” because Jews are “the richest ethnic group in the United States”. Maybe there was some little stigma, sometimes, directed at some Jews, but so what? It’s not nice, but it is “socially inconsequential”.
      http://normanfinkelstein.com/2015/03/13/these-are-bad-bad-times-this-is-good-business-for-stupid-goys-like-me-who-if-we-werent-getting-paid-to-defend-israel-would-have-to-find-a-real-job/

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 15, 2015, 1:37 pm

        “You marry a Jew, it opens doors,” because Jews are “the richest ethnic group in the United States”.

        Another words, if you are tortured by Jewish identity problems, but can’t afford the genetic tests which will resolve this dilemma, you probably don’t need them.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        March 15, 2015, 2:28 pm

        If Zionists prefer a definition of ‘anti-Semitism’ which restricts the term to sentiments bringing with them a realistic threat of pogroms etc. that is up to them. As I say, perhaps too often, no one owns words and our only obligation is to make ourselves clear.
        The more restrictive the definition of anything, the fewer instances of ‘that thing’. If you restrict the definition of tomatoes to fruits of at least 3 inches circumference fewer fruits would quality: no cherry-sized objects would be called ‘tomatoes’. In the same way, there may be some people in the UK who mutter against Jewish things, some but fewer who orate against Jewish things – all these would be ‘anti-Semites’ in a more ‘open’ sense – but none who have a realistic chance of organising or perpetrating a Kishinev-style outrage by an anti-Jewish mob or Cossack-equivalents in foreseeable circumstances here.
        Deceitful rhetoric often works by shifting between definitions without saying so. If someone used my definition, which covers some things possibly quite trivial, to mark some trivial thing down as anti-Semitic and then switched without notice to a restricted definition – one where great danger is required – in order to make that trivial thing seem, without more ado, highly dangerous then that would be deceitful rhetoric.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        March 16, 2015, 4:48 am

        “no one owns words”

        Though I should.

        “and our only obligation is to make ourselves clear.”

        And you have done in that excellent discussion of the dangers of amphiboly through restrictive definition.

  6. seafoid
    seafoid
    March 12, 2015, 5:07 pm

    The difference between anti-Semitism and anti Zionism is the difference between dehumanising Jews because of their religion and reminding Israeli Jews that they share the same humanity as the Palestinians.

    • just
      just
      March 12, 2015, 5:44 pm

      simply brilliant.

    • JLewisDickerson
      JLewisDickerson
      March 12, 2015, 10:07 pm

      All Together Now Lyrics

      Remember boy that your forefathers died
      Lost in millions for a country’s pride
      They never mention the trenches of Belgium
      When they stopped fighting and they were one

      A spirit stronger than war was working that night
      December 1914 cold, clear and bright
      Countries’ borders were right out of sight
      They joined together and decided not to fight

      All together now (X 3)
      In no man’s land, together
      [REPEAT]

      The same old story again
      All those tears shed in vain
      Nothing learnt and nothing gained
      Only hope remains

      All together now (X 3)
      In no man’s land, together
      [REPEAT]

      The boys had their say, they said no
      Stop the slaughter and let’s go home
      Let’s go, let’s go, let’s go, let’s go, let’s go

      The boys had their say, they said no
      Stop the slaughter and let’s go home
      Let’s go, let’s go, let’s go, let’s go home . . .

      SOURCE – http://www.metrolyrics.com/all-together-now-lyrics-farm.html

      All Together Now (The Farm song) – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Together_Now_(The_Farm_song)

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        March 13, 2015, 1:25 am

        With the tune ripped from Canon by Pachelbel

        Music like that is the opposite of Zionism, which has no soul

  7. Pixel
    Pixel
    March 12, 2015, 9:17 pm

    WHOA, Lillian, that’s really something else.

    I’m a little choked up.

    Please allow me to hand you, through the screen, a HUGE bouquet of your favorite flowers.

    It would be my honor if you would accept them.

    Your humble admirer,

    Pixel

    • bintbiba
      bintbiba
      March 13, 2015, 5:09 am

      Pixel. .. what an adorable gesture….. totally appropriate.
      Lillian is a treasure…her humanity shines through our screens and permeates into our being !!

      • bintbiba
        bintbiba
        March 13, 2015, 5:12 am

        Seafoid…. you bring ‘a blast from the past’……. a very, very distant past when a much, much younger ‘she’ was a rookie in an amateur chamber orchestra and played (3rd violin ) the Pachelbel Canon at the very , very back !! :((

      • seafoid
        seafoid
        March 13, 2015, 6:10 am

        Wallahi al atheem , Bintbiba. My sister had it played at her wedding. Beautiful piece of music.

  8. JLewisDickerson
    JLewisDickerson
    March 12, 2015, 9:31 pm

    RE: “Netanyahu drew thunderous applause that followed the words loudly proclaimed as if he owned them: ‘Never Again’.” ~ Lillian Rosengarten

    THE PSYCHOPATHOLOGY OF THE ‘NEVER AGAIN’ COMPULSION:
    “Israel and the Palestinians; The Psychopathology of Revenge”, by Norman Pollack, CounterPunch.org, March 02, 2015

    [EXCERPT] In my earlier article I referred in passing to Israel’s having rendered Gaza “the Bergen-Belsen of the Arab world,” a very harsh statement, but one on further reflection I believe is justified. How explain not only the merciless killing but also the indifference to it on the part of Israelis? Initially, as I over time became more critical of Israel, I ascribed the behavior to the psychodynamics of introjection: the gut-wrenching, anguished, unspeakably cruel experience of the Holocaust, a process of dehumanization which left the individual in a state of extreme ego-loss powerless to resist both the degraded image of the self and the external penetration of the total context of repression into the psyche, notably, the value system of the oppressor, the jailer, the Nazi. This grounding down of the human personality cannot but leave its scars, as though in struggling for a return to wholeness some of the internal poisons remain. One should not blame the victims for the brutal crimes practiced on them. They are entitled to understanding, at the very least, and actually a good deal more. But the historical experience etched into the mindset of the survivors and passed on to future generations could, and I think did, take on a perverse course, at first, largely unconscious, but then hardened into place as the group-memory of genocide remained in force and the experience of renewed persecution either persisted or threatened.

    At this point, clearly not explainable by some form of psychological determinism, but nevertheless, by a natural drive for self-protection, victims find within themselves transformative powers, as in the resolve, “Never again,” to liberate themselves from societal- and self-captivity to become strong, if need be, by overcompensating from previous weakness, with the result of adopting for themselves the mindset that had been responsible for holding them down. The toughness of the Israeli is legendary, a toughness, however, drained of the humanistic, life-giving impulses that had heretofore characterized Judaism and its embrace of the stranger, its inceptive radicalism and call for transcendent brotherhood, its respect for the arts—all thought softness today and ill-fitted for present reality. Sartre once described the anti-Semite (which we can enlarge to include the authoritarian personality) as one attracted to the durability of stone.

    This is where, I’m afraid, we’re at: the prostitution of “Never again” into a solipsistic credo of what might best be called, defensive aggression, which turns out to be not defensive at all. Gaza is like a laboratory of cruelty, different from the gas chamber in quantity more than in quality, a possibility actualized only because of or through the debasement of religious teachings preceded by the breakdown of personality structure and value system under the weight of the Holocaust. Can the spell be broken, the historical- psychological continuity of suffering-transformed-into-revenge likewise broken? I fear that introjection has become a runaway process, that at this point revenge has eliminated an initially passive response to psychological impoverishment, so that the presumed emancipation from the past, the conversion from weakness into strength, takes the hideous form of recapitulating that past under Israel’s own auspices as reproducing the Nazi experience in the modern era: Bergen-Belsen qua Gaza, an assertion of might, a warning to all enemies, real and imagined, and proof-positive of the requisite hardness worthy to being taken as America’s staunchest ally. . .

    ENTIRE COMMENTARY – http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/03/02/the-psychopathology-of-revenge/

    • Pixel
      Pixel
      March 12, 2015, 9:59 pm

      March 02, 2015… that was just 10 days ago.

      wow.

      You know, it was awhile ago , Dickerson, that you began using only a soupçon of CAPS in your posts. I’m really glad that you did because, ever since then, I read everything you write.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 13, 2015, 1:16 am

        John has a commenting style and format all his own, and it works.

  9. Kay24
    Kay24
    March 13, 2015, 1:36 am

    It seems Netanyahu might end up throwing a tantrum about this:

    “(Reuters) – Major world powers have begun talks about a United Nations Security Council resolution to lift U.N. sanctions on Iran if a nuclear agreement is struck with Tehran, a step that could make it harder for the U.S. Congress to undo a deal, Western officials said.

    The talks between Britain, China, France, Russia and the United States — the five permanent members of the Security Council — plus Germany and Iran, are taking place ahead of difficult negotiations that resume next week over constricting Iran’s nuclear ability.

    Some eight U.N. resolutions – four of them imposing sanctions – ban Iran from uranium enrichment and other sensitive atomic work and bar it from buying and selling atomic technology and anything linked to ballistic missiles. There is also a U.N. arms embargo.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/13/un-end-iran-sanctions_n_6861024.html

    It seems despite the arrogant speech against Iran and President Obama’s efforts to avoid a war, and the war mongering, the world takes absolutely NO NOTICE of this troublemaker, and goes ahead doing what they consider the right thing.

    It is a shame that the good for nothing US Congress including Boehner, look like losers too.

  10. tony greenstein
    tony greenstein
    March 13, 2015, 11:18 am

    The racists and the Right always take our slogans and misuse/distort them. So it is with ‘Never Again’. In Britian this is the slogan of anti-fascists and applies to fascism. Never again will we tolerate what has happened. Zionism and its propagandists have perverted it – for Netanyahu and his ilk, ‘never again’ means never again will anything horrible happen to Jews.

    And how will he achieve his state of ‘never again’? By standing up to that tiny minority of anti-Semites who hate Jews? No by running away from them to the ‘real home’ of Jews. Behind the Zionist ‘never again’ is a concession to anti-Semitism.

    Of course they are not talking about anti-Semitism but anti-Zionism for 99% of the time. Attacks like that in Paris or Denmark are manna from heaven. For them anti-Zionism i.e. opposition to one of the most militarised/right-wing states in the world is ‘anti-Semitic’ is in itself anti-Semitic.

    But this doesn’t convince people who have their own brains and means of understanding. We are living through a golden period of tolerance for Jews. It is sickening to compare the Vel d’Hiv in Paris, wheren over 12,000 Jews, including 1,000 children, were rounded up for Drancy and then Auschwitz. The pinprick attacks of disenfranchised young Muslims, the leftovers of the ‘war against terror’ are simply no subsistitute.

    We need to be bolder

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew
      March 13, 2015, 12:49 pm

      tony greenstein- Your interpretation of “never again” is admirable and better than Bibi’s interpretation. But who popularized the phrase “never again”. was it really the left? here in brooklyn if memory serves me, it was Meir Kahane who popularized the phrase. this does not treif the phrase nor does it make Kahane’s interpretation superior to yours, but ” the racists always take our slogans” is not quite true. It was the racists’ slogan to begin with.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 13, 2015, 7:22 pm

        “was it really the left? here in brooklyn if memory serves me, it was Meir Kahane who popularized the phrase”

        Your memory, Yonah, seems to serve nobody else.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        March 14, 2015, 4:11 pm

        JDL was founded in 1968 with the motto “never again”. cite me an earlier usage of the term.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 14, 2015, 4:47 pm

        “JDL was founded in 1968 with the motto “never again”. cite me an earlier usage of the term.”

        Are you sure it wasn’t David Duke? What exactly, is your point, Yonah, that anybody who say’s the words “never again” must be in agreement with all of the JDL’s tenets?

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        March 14, 2015, 4:47 pm

        @yonah

        I am on my cell so copy and pasting links is not as easy. A quick google search shows the phrase predates kahane. As to whether it predates the holocaust is a matter of debate.

        Are you really too lazy to do searches or are you incompetent?

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        March 14, 2015, 5:17 pm

        my original statement: that the JDL popularized the phrase still stands until it is disproved. greenstein’s propriety of the phrase on behalf of the left wing of britain sounds like something convenient or circa 2015. I am sure that the two words occurred in the garden of eden. and if two dogs’ conversation could be translated i’d bet you it precedes the garden of eden.

        old geezer- good to see you haven’t run out of spitballs.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 14, 2015, 5:57 pm

        “old geezer- good to see you haven’t run out of spitballs.”

        That’s it Yonah, you stand on your ethnic dignity! That a Blunder-worker like you should be treated with less than reverence is intolerable!

        BTW, Yonah, do you have a point about “Never Again”? Or is your pilpul habit getting the best of you?

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        March 15, 2015, 2:00 am

        @yonah

        Me run out? Don’t worry although the green part of me wouldn’t want to waste paper products for you.

        You may feel free to hang your hat on someone who is recognized, even in Israel, as a vile and viscious racist I would suggest it’s not a great strategy.

        I think that’s enough yonah. Even “the Jewish State” has rejected your position as vile, when you align yourself with a rank and putrid racist such as kahane, and beyond the pale. If you seek dialogue then you might want to come in from the cold

        Again… don’t worry, I wouldn’t waste any cellulose products in your presence.

        (ps… have you figured out how to phrase a query in your search engine of choice yet? They have help programmes for those who are challenged in most cities of medium size and even some smaller centers)

        (pps David Duke would love a discussion on miscegenation. You may find a supporter in him)

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        March 15, 2015, 2:29 pm

        for clarity sake- I am not a supporter of Meir Kahane. I support Meretz in the present elections. I think that Kahane played a role in getting Soviet Jews on the consciousness of American lawmakers. I would not begrudge him that. But at the same time he killed a secretary working for Sol Hurok, so his means even then were wrong. His work in Israel was abominable and negative. His stance in regard to protecting Jews left in dangerous neighborhoods in urban america of the late ’60’s was not exemplary, but no other group stood up for those who were left to suffer urban blight’s crime wave and I have yet to hear from anyone on that issue to my satisfaction.

        Tony Greenstein’s proprietary stance of the words never again was stupid and ignorant. if he had expressed his opinion on the basis of those two words alone and said, here is how we the enlightened interpret this phrase (which belongs to everybody) and here is how bibi interprets the phrase, then i would not have objected. but his contention that the right stole the slogans of the left feels like some kind of ignorant posturing. and your contributions have moved the conversation here in the same ignorant direction.

      • Walid
        Walid
        March 16, 2015, 12:06 am

        “I think that Kahane played a role in getting Soviet Jews on the consciousness of American lawmakers. I would not begrudge him that. But at the same time he killed a secretary working for Sol Hurok, so his means even then were wrong. ” (Yonah)

        Yonah, you appear to have problems with taking decsions, must be really uncomfortable sitting on that fence. Speaking of that vile JDL, a couple of weeks back it hit a stone wall in its attempts to set up a Montreal branch. The city’s mayor was against it but the strongest opposition to it came from the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs (CIJA) that wanted no part of it in Montreal., where unlike in paranoid Toronto, Jews are very safe and perfectly happy.

        http://www.cjnews.com/canada/jdl-canada-and-cija-clash-over-montreal-expansion

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 22, 2015, 12:01 pm

        “Tony Greenstein’s proprietary stance of the words never again was stupid and ignorant.”

        Okay, okay Yonah, Meir Kahane was a big hero, and invented the phrase, and should always be given credit for it. We get it.

        And thanks for avoiding “verbal excesses” Yonah.

    • seafoid
      seafoid
      March 13, 2015, 2:39 pm

      Great post, Tony

      Zionism is odious.

  11. radii
    radii
    March 13, 2015, 7:54 pm

    zionism has always sought to make any criticism of zionism equate with anti-semitism, racism or worse … it serves the propaganda purpose of victimhood and to put opponents on the defensive … the tactic was finally losing steam the past decade or so but now that college campuses in the U.S. are rising up against israel’s endless aggressions and bad behavior the old canard is trotted out again

  12. Shawshank
    Shawshank
    March 14, 2015, 9:56 am

    A month ago, a politician wrote an editorial that said the United States should provide funding to help European Jews escape “anti-Semitism” and come to the United States. I wrote a reply that basically said what this article says, “Israel was created as a safe haven to Jews worldwide.” I suggested that if European Jews feel unsafe where they are that they can go to Israel. Why should my tax dollars fund ANYONE coming to America?

    A Jewish reader responded and called me an Anti-Semite. Interestingly, Netanyahu has been a travel agent for Israel, suggesting that Jews worldwide migrate there. I guess it is true, it is okay if a Jew says it, but the gentile?

    • just
      just
      March 14, 2015, 10:20 am

      Your “tax dollars” are likely funding illegal settlers and illegal settlements in OPT.

    • eljay
      eljay
      March 14, 2015, 12:25 pm

      || Shawshank @ March 14, 2015, 9:56 am ||

      One moment Israel is the only safe place in the world for Jews, the next it’s anti-Semitic to say so.

      One moment all Jews are responsible for the actions of some Jews, the next it’s anti-Semitic to say so.

      One moment Israel is a “Western-style democracy”, a “moral beacon” and a “light unto the nations”, the next it’s not as bad as Saudi Arabia, Mali and African “hell-holes”.

      Zio-supremacists love to keep people guessing…

  13. Lillian Rosengarten
    Lillian Rosengarten
    March 15, 2015, 12:24 pm

    Response to Stephen Shenfield 3/12 “It is quite possible for an anti-Semite to be a Zionist ” This is a dangerous distortion of Zionism. Christian right wing Evangelicals preach that Jews returning to the holy land are a necessary part of the end of times in which Born Again Christians will escape death as they are raptured into heaven. Now lets be real, camouflaged in love and support of Israel, Christian Zionists teach narratives that parallel the story line of overt anti-Semitism in which Jews are portrayed as sub human. Pay attention Eli Weisel,Michael Oren and Jews desperate for support without understanding the ideology of lies and deception attached to Evangelical babble.

    • bintbiba
      bintbiba
      March 15, 2015, 12:43 pm

      Lillian Rosengarten…
      I know I do not speak only for myself… … We love you !!

  14. Mayhem
    Mayhem
    March 15, 2015, 7:57 pm

    No need to make any mention of the Holocaust as Sydney University professor demonstrates the insidious anti-semitism that permeates the Palestinian camp. No blind support of Israel here – just Jewish university students wanting to hear what Colonel Richard Kemp had to say, but that was too much for the Palestinian supporters who only believe in a confected form of ‘free speech’ that permits pro-Palestinian propaganda to be spouted.

    When anti-Zionism is pursued to the neglect of other concerns that are true examples of criminal assaults on the freedom and integrity of other people like Russia in Ukraine, China in Tibet, Sudan or Sri-Lanka; the singling out of Israel out of all the world’s other conflict situations cannot be seen as being just anti-Zionism. So many ‘anti-Zionists’ who get manically enraged pointing their crooked little fingers in the direction of Israel are white/middle class/privileged people apparently from the ‘left’. They chant in unison with Islamists who have re-invented the slogans of anti-semitism.  It is nothing more than the guilt of class attempting to defend the underdog, the old worn-out image of the international socialist who hangs his philosophical heart strings on a convenient myth. This deliberately ignores the underlying facts and becomes a means of feeling smug about yourself as a human being.

    • Walid
      Walid
      March 15, 2015, 11:26 pm

      “So many ‘anti-Zionists’ who get manically enraged pointing their crooked little fingers in the direction of Israel are white/middle class/privileged people apparently from the ‘left’. They chant in unison with Islamists who have re-invented the slogans of anti-semitism. -“(Mayhem)

      Mayhem, your Israel-is-the- underdog litany is nauseating. From where I’m standing, the only ones chanting in unison with the Islamist are Isis’ big pals, the Israelis You either missed my post to you of yesterday about the WSJ in the JPost detailing how Israel is in bed with the Islamists while the US goes on with the charade of bombing them but not to the point of eradicating them, or you simply chose t ignore it.

    • talknic
      talknic
      March 17, 2015, 6:24 pm

      @ Mayhem “No need to make any mention of the Holocaust as Sydney University professor demonstrates the insidious anti-semitism “

      Threatening to sue someone who has assaulted you is Antisemitic. WOW!! That’s amazing.

      Last time Israel’s false accusers took Jake Lynch to court they lost

      “When anti-Zionism is pursued to the neglect of other concerns that are true examples of criminal assaults on the freedom and integrity of other people like Russia in Ukraine, China in Tibet, Sudan or Sri-Lanka…”

      When are you protesting next? I’ll keep an eye out for you

      Say are they the same Russia http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-diplomats-nix-drone-sale-to-ukraine-report/
      China https://www.google.com.au/search?q=israeli%20arms%20sales%20to%20china
      Sudan http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/israeli-arms-dealers-join-lieberman-s-entourage-to-africa-1.281501
      Sri Lanka https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Sri%20Lanka%20Ratnasiri%20Wickremanayake%20Israeli%20arms

    • eljay
      eljay
      March 17, 2015, 6:52 pm

      || Mayhemeee: When anti-Zionism is pursued to the neglect of other concerns that are true examples of criminal assaults on the freedom and integrity of other people like Russia in Ukraine, China in Tibet, Sudan or Sri-Lanka; the singling out of Israel out of all the world’s other conflict situations cannot be seen as being just anti-Zionism. ||

      1. Zionism is a true example of criminal assaults on the freedom and integrity of other people.

      2. Zio-supremacists never fail to defend the “Western-style democracy”, “moral beacon” and “light unto the nations” state of Israel by comparing it not to the best states in the world but to the states that are “examples of criminal assaults on the freedom and integrity of other people”.

      3. The singling out of Iran or Russia or China or Sri Lanka to the neglect of other concerns such as Israel cannot be seen as just anti-Iranian / -Russian / -Chinese / -Sri Lankan sentiment. Therefore, each movement must include Israel in its portfolio. Israel thanks you for bringing all that extra pressure to bear.

    • talknic
      talknic
      March 17, 2015, 9:47 pm

      @ Mayhem ” So many ‘anti-Zionists’ who get manically enraged pointing their crooked little fingers in the direction of Israel are white/middle class/privileged people apparently from the ‘left’.”

      A ) Where else should one point where the Zionist colonization of Palestine is concerned? Greenland? B) No one on the ‘right’ believes in adhering to the law, the UN Charter or adhering to one’s own borders … AMAZING!

      “They chant in unison with Islamists who have re-invented the slogans of anti-semitism”

      Cute accusation, no evidence tho. Care to give an example … thx … I’ll wait

      Speaking of convenient myths deliberately ignoring the underlying facts and becoming a means of feeling smug about yourself as a human being https://www.google.com.au/search?q=the%20wholly%20holey%20Hasbara%20-holy

    • JustJessetr
      JustJessetr
      March 18, 2015, 11:04 pm

      “It is nothing more than the guilt of class attempting to defend the underdog, the old worn-out image of the international socialist who hangs his philosophical heart strings on a convenient myth.”

      Please. Call it what it really is: White Guilt.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        March 22, 2015, 12:05 pm

        “Please. Call it what it really is: White Guilt.”

        Sorry “Jessetr”, but I’m confused by your statement. Why should “Whites” feel guilty about anything Jews do? Not quite sure I understand, can you explain?

  15. Citizen
    Citizen
    March 16, 2015, 8:06 am

    Is the following article anti-Semitic or anti-zionist?
    Open Letter To Israel By US Soldier’s Parent:
    http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2011/02/05/rob-lonaker-letter-from-a-soldiers-parent-to-israel/

  16. Lillian Rosengarten
    Lillian Rosengarten
    March 16, 2015, 6:34 pm

    Neither just a bit ignorant in my view.

  17. JustJessetr
    JustJessetr
    March 18, 2015, 11:03 pm

    “Can one really believe there still exists the possibility of another incarnation of the Nazi Holocaust?”

    I don’t, but only if Jews continually take a stand against it ever happening again. Fighting a relative handful of extremists is nothing. First Jews have to fight the intellectual laziness that ushers in Jew-hatred, like BDS. In Germany, maybe if they had fought harder against phrenology and the idiotic notions of “Jewish internationalists”, maybe the Reichstag fire wouldn’t have been so easily blamed on Jews.

    I feel like I’m doing my part whenever the Park Slope Food Coop shoots down attempt after attempt to boycott Sodastream. I just lay out the facts without hysteria, throw in a little satire, and demonstrate that the sponsors of such boycott proposals are maniacal and irrational. That always does the trick when put next to boycotters’ endless apologies for Hamas. They seem to think that being anti-Israel makes them pro-Palestinian when nothing could be further from the truth. Boycotters don’t do one thing to help Palestinians, not one single thing. Kinda reminds of all the articles on this website (which I use liberally when pointing out the true colors of BDS, especially the really enlightening ones like “Against Self-Determination”. Thanks for writing it, Phil! You’ve helped me enormously to keep BDS out of the coop!)

    • talknic
      talknic
      March 19, 2015, 12:17 pm

      @ JustJessetr March 18, 2015, 11:03 pm

      I understand your need to write such fantasies

      • JustJessetr
        JustJessetr
        March 19, 2015, 7:48 pm

        It’s no fantasy. It happens at our General Meetings. I just reprinted Phil’s article and passed it around, and even showed the Comments section up on the big screen. Thank you all for being so open and honest in your calls for Israel’s destruction and your naked hatreds. Makes my job a LOT easier.

      • talknic
        talknic
        March 19, 2015, 11:19 pm

        @ JustJessetr
        “It’s no fantasy”

        Whatever fantasies you need to have

        ” I just reprinted Phil’s article and passed it around, and even showed the Comments section up on the big screen. Thank you all for being so open and honest in your calls for Israel’s destruction and your naked hatredsr”

        There are no calls for Israel’s destruction.

        ” Makes my job a LOT easier”

        Writing bullsh*t is your job? WOW! You must be very proud.

  18. Mooser
    Mooser
    March 22, 2015, 12:08 pm

    Gosh “JustJessetr” I do believe Mondo would love to publish any videos, minutes or recordings of that ‘meeting’. Certainly in this age of hi-tech, this wonderful meeting did not go unrecorded?

    I’m sure Mondo would give you all the space you need to post videos, minutes, still photos, Tweets, etc from the meeting.

    “It’s no fantasy. It happens at our General Meetings.”

    Oh, such a meeting!

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