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Two-state-solution is at last disputed in Israeli elections (though not ‘nation state of the Jewish people’)

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At long last the Palestinian issue is entering the Israeli election campaign, with the two leading Jewish factions competing over the two-state solution. Yesterday Netanyahu’s Likud came out against a two-state solution, while the challenger Zionist Camp has come out for it. Though notice in the platform released yesterday that the Zionist Camp is parroting a Jewish-nationalist Netanyahu position that actually caused his government to fall last October: the “unequivocal” assertion that Israel is the “nation state of the Jewish people.”

First, Netanyahu’s choreography. The Likud Party yesterday issued an emphatic statement against a two-state solution. Haaretz’s account:

“Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that [in light of] the situation that has arisen in the Middle East, any evacuated territory would fall into the hands of Islamic extremism and terror organizations supported by Iran. Therefore, there will be no concessions or withdrawals; they are simply irrelevant.”

That statement softens an earlier statement “that appeared this weekend in a weekly Shabbat pamphlet.”

“The Prime Minister announced that the Bar-Ilan speech is null and void,” read the message in the pamphlet, continuing, “Netanyahu’s entire political biography is a fight against the creation of a Palestinian state.”

Later it was said that the statement in the pamphlet came from Tzipi Hotovely, a hardliner who is a Likud member of Knesset and in Netanyahu’s cabinet.

Netanyahu sought to distance himself from utter rejection of a two-state outcome:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office denied reports on Sunday he has backed away from a 2009 commitment to seek a two-state peaceful solution with the Palestinians…

The party’s statement, apparently issued by hardliners, said Netanyahu had also suggested “there would be no withdrawals or concessions, that this is simply irrelevant,” referring to swapping any occupied land for peace.

Liberal Zionists are all over the statements, decrying them. Dylan Williams of J Street:

If Netanyahu was leading US on re 2-state solution, can we get PM residence bottle refunds to reimburse US taxpayer for doomed negotiations?

Lara Friedman of Peace Now:

Bibi now running on opposition to 2-state solution. Coming soon: Bibi’s US apologists defend this as pro-peace stance

Meantime, Netanyahu’s chief opposition, the Zionist Camp of Isaac Herzog and Tzipi Livni, issued a platform that calls for negotiations toward a two-state outcome:

“Reaching a diplomatic accord is of utmost importance and constitutes a condition to ensuring Israel’s future as a Jewish and democratic state, which enjoys wide international support and backing,” the platform states.

“The Zionist Union will work to formulate a diplomatic accord and to determine Israel’s secure and just permanent borders as a Jewish-democratic state, by advancing a security-diplomatic initiative. This initiative will reflect Israel’s core values, which are expressed in the Declaration of Independence in the call for peace and good relations between Israel and its neighbors, alongside the unequivocal definition of the State of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people,” the platform further states.

The “security diplomatic” initiative would seem to refer to the demand that Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state, language that Palestinian leaders have indicated they will not accept. And as for “the unequivocal definition of the State of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people,” remember that it was Netanyahu’s legislation that called for just that that caused his government to collapse last year. That language was “vehemently opposed” by Yair Lapid, finance minister and centrist. Justice Minister Tzipi Livni also criticized the language, amid widespread outrage over a bridge too far, even in the U.S.

At that big Saturday night rally in Tel Aviv by people who want an end to Netanyahu’s leadership, notice the strains of support for the settlers.
Former Israeli general Amiram Levine also addressed the crowd, stressing the importance of the Arab Peace Initiative. Addressing Israeli settlers in the West Bank, Amiram argued that peace “is the only way to preserve the settlement project, the settlement blocs and to hold on to the Golan Heights.”
Both [Levine and former Mossad chief Meir Dagan] used the word “apartheid” in their warnings of the direction Israel is headed.
Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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111 Responses

  1. pabelmont on March 9, 2015, 12:47 pm

    N’u wants no diplomatic settlement (in his lifetime?). The Zionist party wants diplomacy (but with whom? doesn’t say!!) for at least the purpose of legitimizing Israel as Jewish-democratic. Is this possible? sure — if the diplomacy is with US and EU and gets them to give up their own support for PRoR, perhaps even also allowing continuing Israeli presence in OPTs.

    What is the Joint List saying?

    • ritzl on March 9, 2015, 2:08 pm

      “What is the Joint List saying?”

      Great question, pab. One would think that there are about a million Jewish-Israelis who would at least consider the idea of voting for the Joint List on the basis of a shared, desperate need for economic equality in Israel (equality that comes from addressing and solving the Palestinian “issue” and the vast, unproductive sums of money it consumes).

      There are significant motivations for coalition-forming at the Israeli economic “bottom” (just as there are here in the US…). Is “Jewish State…” more important than a better quality of life to Jewish-Israelis?

      And then there is the opportunity to address the moral issues that neither Jewish bloc seems to want to address seriously, and which may appeal to some Jewish-Israelis.

      • jon s on March 10, 2015, 6:20 am

        Meretz and the Joint List both support the 2 state solution, and reject the demand to recognize Israel as a Jewish state as a pre-condition to any agreement.

        Unfortunately , inside the Joint List , Balad and the Islamists vetoed the effort to bring about a pre-election agreement with Meretz on the disposition of “extra votes”, which could cost one or two Knesset mandates to the center-left.

        One more week to the general erection.

      • talknic on March 10, 2015, 5:28 pm

        jon s “Unfortunately , inside the Joint List , Balad and the Islamists …. “

        The “Islamists” ? Care to clarify…. thx

  2. amigo on March 9, 2015, 1:04 pm

    It is normal for nations to change the image on their Postage stamps.The value remains the same.This is what Israel is doing.Getting rid of the worn out image of netanyahu, who is now rightfully seen as a rejectionist , and replacing it with the face of Hertzhog/Livni who seek to convince the intl community that they will negotiate fairly with the Palestinians.

    Read between the lines !!.

    “Reaching a diplomatic accord is of utmost importance and constitutes a condition to ensuring Israel’s future as a Jewish and democratic state, which enjoys wide international support and backing,” the platform states” livni/herzhog.

    Same stamp,same value, different wallpaper.

    • jon s on March 11, 2015, 4:51 pm

      talknic,
      One of the four components of the Joint List is the Islamist Movement.

      • jon s on March 12, 2015, 2:42 am

        Just five days before the election, polls are showing the Hertzog-Livni list ahead of the Likud, which is encouraging, but doesn’t yet mean that Hertzog coud actually form a government.
        Netanyahu had pinned his hopes on a “bounce ” in the polls after his address to Congress. It looks like his strategy backfired badly – he’s had a negative bounce. Many Israelis have understood that destroying our relations with the US administration can hardly be called am achievement.

      • talknic on March 13, 2015, 6:08 pm

        @ jon s “One of the four components of the Joint List is the Islamist Movement”

        Thanks for the ‘explanation’ . Are you trying to rename the Islamic Movement for some particular reason?

      • just on March 13, 2015, 6:38 pm

        Thanks talknic.

        Is he:

        1) disingenuous

        2) inflammatory

        3) attempting to employ one of those ‘terrifying, trigger’ thingies

        4) willfully ignorant

        5) all of the above

      • talknic on March 14, 2015, 12:41 am

        @ just “Is he ….. all of the above”

        Yes … and a propagandist or a fool. Though I doubt anyone purposefully makes a fool of themselves

  3. eljay on March 9, 2015, 1:18 pm

    No Zio-supremacist calls for justice, accountability and equality because all Zio-supremacists – even “liberal Zionists” – want one thing: Israel as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”. They disagree only on the details.

    • annie on March 9, 2015, 1:24 pm

      “liberal Zionists” – want one thing: Israel as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

      hmm, not so sure if i agree eljay. no doubt there are some non religious/secular liberal zionists who resent the growth of the national religious movement in israel and consider it a threat to the (invariably supremacist) state they support.

      • eljay on March 9, 2015, 2:08 pm

        || Annie: hmm, not so sure if i agree eljay. no doubt there are some non religious/secular liberal zionists who resent the growth of the national religious movement in Israel … ||

        Even non-religious / secular Zionists want Israel to be a state that is primarily of and for Israelis and non-Israelis who:
        – have undergone a religious-conversion to Judaism; or
        – are descended from people who have undergone religious conversions to Judaism.

        If a liberal Zionist exists who supports Israel as a secular and democratic state of and for all of its Israeli citizens, immigrants, ex-pats and refugees, equally – and not as a “Jewish State” primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews – he’s not a Zionist.

      • annie on March 9, 2015, 3:14 pm

        Even non-religious / secular Zionists want Israel to be a state that is primarily of and for Israelis and non-Israelis who:
        – have undergone a religious-conversion to Judaism; or
        – are descended from people who have undergone religious conversions to Judaism.

        eljay, your answer doesn’t address the fact there are jews who consider their jewishness determined by their ethnicity and in contrast to a religious determination. and some of those people don’t even consider religious converts as being jewish, for that very reason. the founders of zionism were not even religious. the fact of religious ancestors or religious history doesn’t mean every zionist secular jew desires israel to be “as a religion..Jewish State”. if “jewish” doesn’t mean judaism, and as far as i know they are not synonymous, then the same could be said for their vision of the state.

        either way, not being jewish this is not my expertise. but all one would have to do is find one liberal zionist who agreed with me regarding their vision of the state. of course there are people who insist that jewishness depends on judaism and secular jews are not real jews, but i wouldn’t be one of those people.

        can we just agree to disagree?

      • eljay on March 9, 2015, 3:38 pm

        || Annie Robbins: … if “jewish” doesn’t mean judaism, and as far as i know they are not synonymous, then the same could be said for their vision of the state. … all one would have to do is find one liberal zionist who agreed with me regarding their vision of the state. ||

        Jewish may not be Judaism but – unlike Canadian or French or German – you can’t bureaucratically get to Jewish without conversion to Judaism or by descent from someone who converted to Judaism.

        If you can find one Zionist who says it’s possible – who says that all citizens of, immigrants to and ex-pats and refugees from “Jewish State” get bureaucratically assigned a citizenship of “Jewish” that entitles all of them to the same rights – that would be great. But I suspect you won’t find one and, even if you did, s/he’d be outnumbered by all the Zionists who say it’s not possible.

        || can we just agree to disagree? ||

        Sure thing! :-)

      • annie on March 9, 2015, 4:47 pm

        you can’t bureaucratically get to Jewish without conversion to Judaism or by descent from someone who converted to Judaism.

        true, but that still doesn’t mean all zionist want a “religion-supremacist “Jewish State”. maybe i am not understanding your meaning of “”religion-supremacist”. because the implication is that the religion is supreme. whereas, i would use the term “ethnic-supremacists” because (imho) it is more inclusive.

        you can’t bureaucratically get to Jewish without conversion to Judaism or by descent from someone who converted to Judaism.

        even if that “conversion” was from the time of christ? that just seems a little far fetched. a good chunk of the world’s jews are secular and could give a flying f about religion. when there are generations from one family who are secular and zionists, it doesn’t have to do w/israel or zionism being a religion-supremist state. it’s ethnic nationalism. like white nationalists, the fact that their ancestors were christian is not going to be important to a portion of them.

        Sure thing! :-)

        ;) …sorry, i just had to get one more word in!

      • eljay on March 9, 2015, 5:30 pm

        || Annie Robbins: … maybe i am not understanding your meaning of “”religion-supremacist”. because the implication is that the religion is supreme. whereas, i would use the term “ethnic-supremacists” because (imho) it is more inclusive. ||

        To the best of my understanding, “Jewish” is, fundamentally, a religious construct. Without Judaism, there is no Jewish. When Zionists say they want a “Jewish State”, they’re talking about a state whose “ethnicity” is restricted to people who underwent or are willing to undergo a religious conversion to Judaism, or who are descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

        || … it’s ethnic nationalism. like white nationalists, the fact that their ancestors were christian is not going to be important to a portion of them. ||

        The white nationalist is white regardless of the religion of his ancestors. Without at least one ancestor who converted to Judaism and unless he undergoes a religious conversion himself, the Jewish nationalist is neither religiously Jewish nor ethnically Jewish – he’s simply not Jewish.

        I may be mistaken, but from every conversation I’ve had or read here on MW, that is my understanding.

        || ;) …sorry, i just had to get one more word in! ||

        No problem! :-D

      • David Doppler on March 9, 2015, 5:38 pm

        Yes, and the US needs to make clear it needs a regime in Israel prepared to agree to a 2 state solution (not just “negotiate for” one, which is code for eating the pizza while arguing over whose it is), and to do so in good faith, pursuant to a reasonable timetable. Likud and points right regard that prospect as “the risk of peace,” and threaten assassination to those who seriously advocate for it. Netanyahu seems clearly more concerned with being outflanked by Bennett, or otherwise losing the Israeli right wing than with risking US support. US support has to be put in play, in order for Israel to forced off the right wing trajectory, which will end badly, all the more the catastrophic the longer it retains power.

      • Stephen Shenfield on March 10, 2015, 5:27 am

        There are a lot of Zionists who are themselves completely non-religious but strongly identify with an ethnic group they call “the Jewish people” (whether or not others accept that such a thing exists or is even possible). They passionately resent the power of the Orthodox rabbinate in Israeli society. Their trouble is that they are unable to think up any alternative non-religious definition of Jewishness that is precise and verifiable enough to be used for legal and bureaucratic purposes in maintaining the “Jewish character” of the state. Therefore they have to rely on the rabbis to do this job for them, much as they hate doing so. It is this that explains the apparent paradox of atheists creating a state based on religion.

        The secular Zionists also needed the religious Zionists to form a governing coalition, but that is a more superficial, secondary factor: the crucial point lies deeper.

        I’d like to add that I didn’t work this out for myself — I am drawing on the analysis pioneered by the anti-Zionist Israeli organization Matzpen.

      • Mikhael on March 10, 2015, 9:58 am

        eljay March 9,

        If a liberal Zionist exists who supports Israel as a secular and democratic state of and for all of its Israeli citizens, immigrants, ex-pats and refugees, equally – and not as a “Jewish State” primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews – he’s not a Zionist.

        Israel is a secular and a democratic nation-state of the Jewish people, not the Jewish religion. It is also a liberal state that extends equal civic and legal rights to all of its citizens, whether they are of Jewish national origins or not or whether they practice the traditional religion of the Jewish people in any of its forms or not. Liberal Zionists affirm that the Land of Israel (which is not coterminous with the State of Israel) is the historic national homeland of the Jewish people and that the State of Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people. It is self-evident that Jews collectively constitute a people and are not merely practitioners or believers in a certain religion that people like you think is called “Judaism,” and as a national group with common origins in a specific country, are entitled to independence in that country. This has been a desire of Jews for millenia and now that it has been achieved in the 20th century it won’t be discarded. Liberal Zionists affirm these premises and support equal civic rights in the Jewish state for citizens of Israel who belong to national minority groups, in accordance with Israel’s Declaration of Independence and Basic Laws. Liberal Zionists denounce discrimination against our fellow Israeli citizens who are not of Jewish nationality and encourage the full participation of citizens who belong to any of the national minority communities in the political, social and economic spheres.

        As to “immigrants,” “ex-pats” (sic), or “refugees”, no, of course, people falling under any of these categories will not have all of the same rights as Israeli citizens — unless and until such individuals become Israeli citizens. You constantly bandy about the term “ex-pat” (sic) , “refugee” and “immigrant” and make the wild assertion that Israel owes non-citizens who fall under these categories the same rights as citizens. No state owes the same privileges to non-citizens residing within its borders as it does to its citizens, and no state has an obligation to grant citizenship to all “ex-pats” (sic) , “refugees” and “immigrants”. An expat (no hyphen necessary, by the way, I notice you always get that wrong in addition to your confusion about what the word means) living in Israel by definition is not an Israeli citizen, but a citizen of a foreign country residing in Israel (either legally or illegally). Therefore, such an individual, as a non-citizen is not entitled to all of the benefits of Israeli citizenship, such as voting or holding elected office. When and if an “expat” acquires Israeli citizenship then, and only then, is such a person entitled to the benefits of Israeli citizenship. Non-citizens of Israel residing in Israel — “expats” — can acquire Israeli citizenship through various means — if such a person is a foreign-born person of Jewish national origins, of course, he/she may acquire it through immigration under the Law of Return, otherwise, a foreigner residing in Israel may obtain Israeli citizenship through marriage to an Israeli citizen –and the Israeli citizen spouse can be of any religious, national, racial or ethnic background–e.g., a Filipino Catholic expat living in Israel and working legally under contract in Israel as as a caregiver who meets, falls in love with and marries a Muslim Arab citizen of Israel is entitled to apply for and receive Israeli citizenship. Non-Jewish expats can also be naturalized under Israeli law if they reside legally in Israel and undergo a naturalization process, subject to the approval of the Interior Ministry. Likewise, a “refugee” (whether residing legally or illegally in Israel) is not entitled to the benefits of Israeli citizenship, unless or until such a person acquires Israeli citizenship, either through marriage to an Israeli citizen or through naturalization, as outlined above. Most asylum seekers in Israel have not obtained full refugee status. Those who have, however, have some, but not all, of the benefits of Israeli citizenship, such as legal employment, national insurance and health insurance, save for voting and running for office. Those asylum claimants who have not obtained full refugee status have fewer rights, yet are still entitled to police protection and can sue an employer in Labor Court for not being paid proper wages, even if they don’t hold proper work documentation.

        Clarify what you mean by “ex-pats,” (sic) “immigrants” and “refugees” and explain why you think that if such people aren’t citizens in the State of Israel they should be entitled to all of the same rights and benefits of citizens of Israel and try to provide an example of any country that accords all of the same rights and benefits to non-citizens as it does to its citizens.

      • eljay on March 10, 2015, 11:00 am

        || Mikhaeleee: Israel is a secular and a democratic nation-state of the Jewish people … ||

        There’s your biggest problem: Israel should be the secular and democratic nation-state of all Israelis, equally.

        || It is self-evident that Jews collectively constitute a … national group with common origins in a specific country … ||

        It is far from self-evident:
        – Not all Jews originate in Israel.
        – If they did, they’d be Israeli, and they’d be a subset of the total Israeli population (a portion of which is non-Jewish).

        || You constantly bandy about the term “ex-pat” (sic) , “refugee” and “immigrant” and make the wild assertion that Israel owes non-citizens who fall under these categories the same rights as citizens. ||

        I haven’t made any wild assertions. All I’ve said is that Israel should be the state of and for all of its Israeli citizens, immigrants, ex-pats [sic] and refugees, equally, rather than a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews.

        – Citizens: The people who hold the citizenship of the state.
        – Immigrants: The people who legally immigrate to the state.
        – Ex-pats [sic]: The people who have voluntarily left the state. (May include descendants up to n-generations removed from the state.)
        – Refugees: The people who have voluntarily or involuntarily left the state. (Includes the Palestinians who were expelled.)

      • Mooser on March 10, 2015, 12:22 pm

        “To the best of my understanding, “Jewish” is, fundamentally, a religious construct.”

        Gee, “eljay”, you haven’t noticed that “Jewish” is whatever a Zionist says it as at the moment? It’s all that with a cherry on top, and gives a self-protecting shine to your floors.

        But there is one thing you can count on, a Zionist never, ever questions what Judaism is or could be, nope, he knows.

      • Mooser on March 10, 2015, 12:24 pm

        “Israel is a secular and a democratic nation-state of the Jewish people”

        See, there you go, blaming the Jews again. Zionists always blame the Jews.

      • eljay on March 10, 2015, 12:34 pm

        || eljay: – Refugees: The people who have voluntarily or involuntarily left the state. (Includes the Palestinians who were expelled.) ||

        Clarification: – Refugees: The people who have voluntarily (but under duress) or involuntarily left the state. (Includes the Palestinians who were expelled.)

      • eljay on March 10, 2015, 12:40 pm

        || Mooser: Gee, “eljay”, you haven’t noticed that “Jewish” is whatever a Zionist says it as at the moment? ||

        Yes, yes I have. If nothing else, they must find the flexibility convenient.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 10, 2015, 1:35 pm

        Mikhael

        ”Most asylum seekers in Israel have not obtained full refugee status. ”

        Bit of an understatement, if we go by the recent article about more than 99% of applications being rejected.

        ”a Filipino Catholic expat living in Israel and working legally under contract in Israel as as a caregiver who meets, falls in love with and marries a Muslim Arab citizen of Israel is entitled to apply for and receive Israeli citizenship.”

        But not entitled to marry in Israel.

        And how many such people actually receive Israeli citizenship? I’m willing to bet that more hurdles are placed in the way of non Jewish would be citizens whose only claim to citizenship is a non Jewish spouse. Then there’s the fact that Palestinian citizens of Israel are legally banned from living in Israel with spouses who are fellow Palestinians living under occupation. Not such a rosy picture after all, is it?

      • philadelphialawyer on March 10, 2015, 5:40 pm

        “It [Israel] is also a liberal state that extends equal civic and legal rights to all of its citizens, whether they are of Jewish national origins or not or whether they practice the traditional religion of the Jewish people in any of its forms or not.”

        I wonder why Zionists even bother to repeat this malarkey on this website. Here, at least, there are few to none who really believe this claptrap. Arab Palestinian citizens of Israel do NOT have equal civic and legal rights with Israeli Jews. And everyone here knows that.

        “Liberal Zionists….support equal civic rights in the Jewish state for citizens of Israel who belong to national minority groups, in accordance with Israel’s Declaration of Independence and Basic Laws. Liberal Zionists denounce discrimination against our fellow Israeli citizens who are not of Jewish nationality and encourage the full participation of citizens who belong to any of the national minority communities in the political, social and economic spheres.”

        Perhaps there are liberal Zionists who do “support” the fine words and promises made in the referred to documents. But that is a far cry from proving that those things are a reality. And, as in pre Apartheid South Africa, the liberals have made their peace with a regime that emphatically does NOT provide equal rights, or even basic human rights, to all of the folks under its control, including those living in its bantustans (as well as not providing equal rights even to all who are technically citizens). So, while these liberals may indeed “support,” in some abstract way, equality for all, that “support” is pretty much lip service. And deserves to be treated as such.

      • annie on March 11, 2015, 8:23 pm

        The white nationalist is white regardless of the religion of his ancestors.

        really? so there are jewish white nationalists who don’t hide their jewish ethnicity? not that i know of.

        Without Judaism, there is no Jewish.

        you’re really stuck on this aren’t you. whereas in the reality i come from there are jews who don’t believe in religion but do believe they are jewish. whereas, religious jews may agree with you. but they would also agree that a secular jew with no belief in god or judaism or religion at all is more jewish that someone who converted to judaism and is a practicing jew, if..the non religious person has a jewish mother (regardless of her “judaism”)

        this jewish mother thing, that’s dna. that’s not judaism. it’s carried on by the mother. that’s ethnicity. you can have no judaism in your family for generations and you’ll get into israel as long as your mother’s mother’s mother etc was jewish – by BIRTHRIGHT, not by religion.

        the founders of zionism were not religious. the orthodox rabbi’s in israel won’t even marry a converted religious jewish person in israel to a “real jew” by birth, if their mother wasn’t jewish by birth.

        Jewish secularism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_secularism

        Jewish secularism comprises the largest section of the Jewish people who are secular and the body of work produced by secular Jews over the past 250 years. Almost half of all Jews define themselves as secular…

        These people build up communities where Jewish holidays are celebrated as historical and nature festivals, and where life-cycle events are marked in a secular manner.

        Throughout modern history, Jewish thinkers have challenged traditional Judaism. As early as the nineteenth century, members of the Society for the Culture and Science of the Jews (Verein fur Kultur und Wissenschaft der Juden) viewed Judaism as a culture, not a religion. These secularists, building on foundations of the Enlightenment, Haskalah, were keen to integrate humanistic culture and education with a Jewish culture not linked to rabbinical dictates, or the existence of a personal God.

        not religion but culture. and you can’t convert into ‘cultural judaism’ sans the religion, or secular jewishness, you have to be born into it.

        and notice how many jews don’t buy into the idea, or resist the idea so many ashkenazi jews are or could be jewish by conversion.

      • RoHa on March 12, 2015, 6:44 am

        I have never seen the point of Jewish secularism. If you don’t believe the religion, why bother with the rest of it.

        (And when are we going to be able to move directly from a comment in the “100 latest” to the comment in the thread, the way we used to be able to do? )

      • Mikhael on March 12, 2015, 9:00 am

        eljay March 10, 2015, 11:00 am
        || Mikhaeleee: Israel is a secular and a democratic nation-state of the Jewish people … ||

        There’s your biggest problem: Israel should be the secular and democratic nation-state of all Israelis, equally.

        ElJay (for “Juvenile”?)eeeeee,

        Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people, an ancient nationality with a global diaspora, and it is the secular and democratic state that accords its citizens, whatever their national or racial origin or religious affiliation, the same treatment under the law. There is absolutely no contradiction at all in Israel being a nation-state for the Jewish people worldwide as well as the secular and democratic state for all Israeli citizens, a minority of whom are not of Jewish nationality. This is the reality in theory and in practice. Like many other democratic ethnic nation-states (e.g., Greece, Armenia, Germany, Hungary) Israel has an ethnic national culture and nurtures ties with diaspora communities of the majority national group. The aforementioned states, like Israel, allow members of diaspora communities living abroad to easily gain citizenship while protecting and guaranteeing the legal and civic rights of citizens who are members of ethnic/national minority communities. In a manner very similar to Israel, Armenia very much views itself as the nation-state of the Armenian people–and the “Armenian people” refers not only to individuals holding citizenship in the Republic of Armenia but people of Armenian background worldwide, whether or not they or their known ancestors were born within the borders of territory that comprises the present-day Republic of Armenia. For example, ethnic Armenians, whether natives of France, Argentina, California, Russia, Poland, Turkey or Syria (all places with large Armenian diaspora communities that have resided there for multiple generations, many of whose members are largely integrated or assimilated in the national lives of their host countries and no longer even speak Armenian or who worship in Armenian churches, but many of whom also nurture a connection to Armenian culture Armenia), are entitled, under Armenian law, to obtain Armenian citizenship because they are regarded as part of the “Armenian people.” At the same time, the modern nation-state of Armenia (known as the Republic of Armenia) which gained independence on territory that was once called the “Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic” after the breakup of the USSR has national minority communities who live within its borders– these are people who hold Armenian citizenship but who are not of Armenian national/national origins– e.g., ethnic Azeri Turks, Russians, Greeks, Ukrainians and Jews. There is absolutely no contradiction for the present-day Republic of Armenia being a nation-state for all people of Armenian ethnic background everywhere –and it actually has a government ministry called “The Ministry of the Diaspora” (dedicated to fostering ties with the Armenian state and diaspora Armenians across the globe http://www.mindiaspora.am/en/index) in addition to it being a secular, democratic state for its citizens who are not of Armenian ethnicity and who live within its borders. The rights of the ethnic Russians, Jews, and Azeris who live in the Republic of Armenia now and who are currently citizens of that state are not prejudiced just because a 4th-generation Armenian-American from Glendale, California can obtain citizenship in Armenia as well, cf the Armenian Constitution, Chapter 2, Section 14.1. It is their country too. Because Armenia nurtures its ties with diaspora communities and offers citizenship to diaspora Armenians, Arabic-speaking Armenians from Syria have found refuge from the Syrian civil war in Armenia solely because of their ancestry; this is completely right and just; and Armenia owes this duty to ethnic Armenians from Syria, something it does not owe to non-Armenians fleeing the the horrors of that war. Just like Armenia is a state for Armenians from around the world, so is Israel is a state for Jews around the world as well as a state for its non-Jewish citizens. Liberal Zionists uphold this vision and every government in Israel to date has been composed of liberal Zionists (yes, Likud, like Labour, is a liberal Zionist party) and being a Jewish nation-state and a state for all its citizens is not an oxymoron.

        || It is self-evident that Jews collectively constitute a … national group with common origins in a specific country … ||
        It is far from self-evident:
        – Not all Jews originate in Israel.

        I never stated that “all” Jewish individuals originate in Israel but that Jews collectively constitute a national group with common origins in a specific territory. Indeed, there are certainly examples of recent converts to Judaism from diverse ethnic backgrounds who are unlikely to have any ancestral roots in territory that is within the borders of the modern state of Israel or in the neighboring region. (Of course, much of Eretz Yisrael is not within the State of Israel.) Granted that if a hypothetical Inuit, or a Presbyterian Scots Highlander whose family has lived in Scotland for 800 years converts to Judaism, it would be hard to argue that he/she is of ancient Jewish/Israelite lineage. Nevertheless, most Jews worldwide originate from historical Diaspora Jewish communities, which are traceable to founder populations which originated in Eretz Yisrael. Eretz Yisrael, of course, is not coterminous with and identical to the modern State of Israel, an entity which has only existed for the past 67 years.

        – If they did, they’d be Israeli, and they’d be a subset of the total Israeli population (a portion of which is non-Jewish).

        The word “Israeli” is merely a translation of the Hebrew yisra’eli,”ישראלי” — which for centuries until Jews regained independence in a portion of their ancestral homeland in the 20th century, was essentially interchangeable with the term “Jew”. When Jews in France were organized by Napoleon into the Consistoire central israélite de France he was not setting up an organization for citizens of the State of Israel, which didn’t exist in the early 19th century. Likewise, Jews in Germany and Austria were organized into the Israelitische Kultusgemeinde and American Jews in Cincinnati have published a newspaper since the 1800s called The American Israelite. The word “Israelite” and other variations thereof such as “israélite”/Israelitische” are all directly translated from the Hebrew yisra’eli as well, which can mean an “Israelite” or an “Israeli”.
        Since the creation of the modern State of Israel (Medinat Yisra’el) in 1948, and due to modern Hebrew usage, for the first time in thousands of years the word “yisra’eli” can also refer to people who are not Jews but who hold citizenship in the modern State of Israel despite the historic usage of the term. So yes, in modern usage, an Israeli can be understood to be a citizen of Israel (of any religion or nationality) but in a wider sense it has historically meant an Israelite– i.e., a Jew. This is analogous to someone being a citizen of Armenia (or Greece, or Germany, or Hungary) being called an Armenian, a Greek, or a German, or a Hungarian merely by dint of holding citizenship in any of the aforementioned countries, even if they are not ethnically Armenian, Greek, German or Hungarian. Likewise, ethnic Armenians, Greeks, Germans or Hungarians who are members of diaspora communities will often identify as and be called Armenians, or Greeks, or Germans, or Hungarians, even if they do not hold citizenship in those countries (although they are entitled to apply for and obtain said citizenships).

        I haven’t made any wild assertions. All I’ve said is that Israel should be the state of and for all of its Israeli citizens, immigrants, ex-pats [sic] and refugees, equally, rather than a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews.

        Suggesting that anyone other than a citizen of a state is due equal rights and benefits that a state owes its citizens is a wild assertion. No democratic nation-state offers non-citizens all the same rights and benefits that it offers to its citizens.
        Again, Israel is a state for all Israeli citizens whether they are of Jewish nationality or not; it is also a Jewish state (which as I demonstrated above, is a term virtually interchangeable with “Israeli”). As a Jewish nation-state, Israel has a right and an obligation to defend the interests of Jews living abroad and nurture ties with diaspora Jewish communities and offer expedited citizenship to the members of such communities (just as Armenia, Greece, Germany, or Hungary look out for the interests of their diaspora communities). It also has a duty to equally treat under the law its citizens who are not of Jewish nationality; a duty which it upholds. Being a Jewish state for Jews worldwide does not negate being a state for all its citizens. When diaspora Jews become Israeli citizens, then they have all the rights of Israeli citizens. Diaspora Jews who are not Israeli citizens have fewer rights in Israel than Israeli citizens who are not Jews. Non-Jewish Israeli citizens can vote and hold office in Israel, a Jew from Canada , the US or France who is not an Israeli citizen cannot unless or until they obtain Israeli citizenship. The easy ability of a Jew from the US, Canada or France to obtain Israeli citizenship, and thus the right due Israelis, does not in any way deprive a non-Jewish citizen of Israel of the rights they are entitled to as citizens.

        – Citizens: The people who hold the citizenship of the state.
        – Immigrants: The people who legally immigrate to the state.
        – Ex-pats [sic]: The people who have voluntarily left the state. (May include descendants up to n-generations removed from the state.)
        – Refugees: The people who have voluntarily or involuntarily left the state. (Includes the Palestinians who were expelled.)

        Again, the only relevant category listed here is citizens. Only citizens of a state are ever owed the full rights and benefits of a state. This does not just go for Israel, but no state grants the same rights and benefits to non-citizens (whether they are “immigrants”, “ex-pats” or “refugees” as it does to citizens). If individuals in the latter three categories gain citizenship in a given state, then their prior status as “expats” (sic) (again, there is no hyphen in “ex-pat”*), “immigrants” or “refugees” is not relevant.

        *The word is expat (short for expatriate, natch). If “ex-pat” with a hyphen was a real word, the “ex-” prefix would suggest someone who is formerly a “patriate”. But the prefix is not ex- as in formerly but ex, which means “outside of” rather than “formerly”. You defined an “ex-pat” (sic) as someone who has voluntarily or involuntarily left a state, but the real meaning is someone who resides outside the state of his or her citizenship. If you are referring to expats of other countries residing in Israel who are non-citizens of Israel, such persons are not owed the same rights as Israeli citizens by the Israeli state. If you are referring to Israeli citizens who live abroad, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, such persons retain their Israeli citizenship and thus the rights** due all Israeli citizens. It does not matter if an Israeli expat is a Jewish expat from Israel or an Arab expat from Israel for said person to retain their citizenship rights. If you are referring to a non-citizen of Israel who has voluntarily or involuntarily left the State of Israel (including Arabs who left the country at Israeli independence), such persons by definition are not Israeli expats and are not owed the rights of Israeli citizenship by the State of Israel.

        **A major exception to rights that Israelis living in Israel have that expatriate Israelis living abroad do not have is the right, while living outside of Israel, to vote in Israeli elections by means of an absentee ballot (unlike expatriate citizens of other countries). Israeli citizens living abroad (unless they are part of Israeli embassy or consular staff or other diplomatic missions) must return to Israel to cast a ballot. As an Israeli currently residing in the US, if I wish to vote in the upcoming Knesset elections I must board a flight to Israel and demonstrate sustained residence there. This may be irksome and inconvenient to some, but it is not a measure that discriminates between Jewish citizens and non-Jewish citizens of Israel who reside abroad. All expatriate Israeli citizens may regain their right to vote in Israel upon returning to the country and demonstrating a reestablished residency there.

      • eljay on March 12, 2015, 10:16 am

        || Mikhaeleee: Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people … ||

        Like I said, that’s your problem right there. Israel should be the nation state of the Israeli people (citizens of, immigrants to and ex-pats [sic] and refugees from), equally. Israel as a “Jewish State” – a state primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews – is a religion-supremacist construct.

        The remainder of your post:
        – is ridiculously verbose;
        – adds nothing new to the conversation; and
        – confirms that you are a Zio-supremacist.

      • Mikhael on March 16, 2015, 3:18 am

        eljay
        March 12, 2015, 10:16 am

        || Mikhaeleee: Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people … ||

        Like I said, that’s your problem right there.

        Eljerkeeeeee, nope, Israel being a nation-state for the Jewish people is not a problem. It is the best thing that has happened in the history of the Jewish people in the past 2,000 years. Non-Jews living in Canada don’t get to decide what the national character of a state should be against the wishes of the majority of its citizenry.

        Israel should be the nation state of the Israeli people (citizens of, immigrants to and ex-pats [sic] and refugees from), equally.

        Again, Israel is a state for all of its citizens (whether they are of Jewish nationality or not) and it is the Jewish nation-state that affords people of Jewish nationality living in the diaspora the opportunity to return to their ancestral homeland through aliyah and become citizens. Non-citizens of Israel are not entitled to all the rights and benefits of citizenship in the State of Israel, when and if they obtain Israeli citizenship, then they have such rights.
        Again, there is a Jewish people (which has existed for thousands of years) and there are citizens of the State of Israel. In traditional Hebrew usage (Hebrew is the national language of the Jewish people), the “nation of Israel” was always synonymous with the “Jewish people” when Jews refer to “am yisra’el” (the people of Israel) they refer to Jews whether or not they are citizens of the State of Israel. Non-Jews can be “ezrahei medinat yisra’el” (citizens of the State of Israel) but they are not part of “am yisra’el” (“nation of Israel”). Citizens of the State of Israel all have equal rights of citizenship whatever their religious, national and ethnic background. Non-citizens of Israel, even if they are part of the Jewish people (am yisra’el) which has existed for thousands of years, long before the emergence of the modern State of Israel, do not have the same citizenship rights in Israel as non-Jewish citizens of the State of Israel unless and until they obtain Israeli citizenship. Not all members of the Jewish people (am yisrael) are citizens of the State of IsraeI (medinat yisra’el). While Israel remains the nation-state of all Jews worldwide, unless and until they obtain Israeli citizenship, a Jew from the Diaspora (e.g., Canada) cannot vote or hold office in Israel. A non-Jewish citizen can vote and hold office in Israel. Israel is a state for all of its citizens, whether they are of Jewish nationality or not. Israel is the nation-state for all members of the Jewish people worldwide, whether they are Israeli citizens or not.

        Israel as a “Jewish State” – a state primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews – is a religion-supremacist construct.

        Israel is a state primarily for all of its citizens and it allows people of Jewish nationality living abroad who are not citizens to move to Israel and become citizens. Doing so does not prejudice the rights of its citizens who are not Jews, just as Armenia’s granting of citizenship to Diaspora Armenians does not prejudice the rights of its citizens who are of non-ethnic Armenian background.

        Israel is essentially a secular state with a large religious population. Outside personal status matters, secular law trumps religious law. Jews are a national group with a worldwide Diaspora and being Jewish isn’t contingent on observance or adherence to a religion, in Israel or outside Israel, thus Israel is not a “religion-supremacist” state.

        The remainder of your post:

        – is ridiculously verbose;
        _ adds nothing new to the conversation; and
        – confirms that you are a Zio-supremacist.

        Your constant nonsensical mantra of Israel needing to be a nation state for “citizens” “ex-pats” (sic) (again, no hyphen in ex-pats, it’s “expats”) , “immigrants” and “refugees” adds nothing new to the conversation and is false on its face. A given state is only obligated to offer equal status to its citizens. Immigrants, refugees and expats who are not citizens are not due the rights of citizenship unless and until they become citizens. A state may also define itself in terms of its ethnicity and nationality and offer citizenship to members of diaspora communities abroad. Israel is not unique in this regard.

        There’s no such thing as a “Zio-Supremacist”. I am a Zionist and a liberal, which means that I believe in the right of the Jewish people to national self-determination and independent statehood in Israel, the historic ancestral homeland of the Jews, and I support equal rights for all citizens of the State of Israel, whether they are of Jewish nationality or non-Jewish nationality. I also support the creation of a Palestinian Arab state in portions of the disputed territories adjacent to Israel.

      • eljay on March 16, 2015, 8:24 am

        || Mikhaeleee: Eljerkeeeeee … ||

        And you accused me of being juvenile. Funny stuff.

        || … nope, Israel being a nation-state for the Jewish people is not a problem. ||

        It is if you care about justice, accountability and equality. Zio-supremacists like you clearly don’t care about such things, which is why you don’t consider a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” to be a problem.

        The rest of your very long post is the usual verbose Zio-supremacist blather. Either they’re paying you by the word or keystroke…or you’re compensating.

      • Mikhael on March 16, 2015, 3:37 pm

        Eljay
        March 16, 2015, 8:24 am

        || Mikhaeleee: Eljerkeeeeee … ||

        And you accused me of being juvenile. Funny stuff.

        I’m not the one who started adding superfluous vowels to the end of people’s names. That would be you, and that would make you juvenile, obnoxious and a jerk.

        || … nope, Israel being a nation-state for the Jewish people is not a problem. ||

        It is if you care about justice, accountability and equality. Zio-supremacists like you clearly don’t care about such things, which is why you don’t consider a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” to be a problem.

        Since there is no such thing as a “religion-supremacist” Jewish state and no such entity currently exists, by definition it is not a problem. The modern State of Israel is a secular nation-state for the Jewish people, whose members are a historic national community that were dispersed from their original ancestral and suffered persecution because of that, The creation of a Jewish secular nation-state in the Jewish ancestral Jewish homeland, Eretz Yisrael, where almost all Jews trace their ancestry, is just and rectifies centuries of Jewish homelessness and statelessness. Non-Jews citizens of Israel have equal status under the law as Jewish Israeli citizens.

        The rest of your very long post is the usual verbose Zio-supremacist blather. Either they’re paying you by the word or keystroke…or you’re compensating.

        I’ll respond point by point in as much detail as necessary to counter your lies. If you’re going to accuse someone of being a “Zio-Supremacist” you will have to explain what that means. A “supremacist” means someone who advocates the inherent superiority of a particular group of people. You cannot find one iota of evidence where I have advocated the inherent superiority of any particular group of people, hence, your allegation that I am a a “supremacist” –“Zio” or otherwise, is devoid of meaning. Zionists, however, who advocate the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in an independent sovereign state in their ancestral homeland, and uphold it as a nation-state for the Jewish people while affirming the rights of non-Jewish citizens to enjoy equal rights are not supremacists. Try to explain how the legal citizenship rights of non-Jewish citizens in a state that defines itself as a Jewish nation-state are compromised if such non-Jewish citizens enjoy the franchise, hold elected office, own property, live wihere they please, and serve as justices on the Supreme Court, just because that state maintains a relationship with people of Jewish nationality and ethnic origins who live outside the borders of the State of Israel and offers them the opportunity to become citizens.

      • Mikhael on March 16, 2015, 3:53 pm

        Annie Robbins
        March 11, 2015, 8:23 pm

        Without Judaism, there is no Jewish.

        you’re really stuck on this aren’t you. whereas in the reality i come from there are jews who don’t believe in religion but do believe they are jewish. whereas, religious jews may agree with you. but they would also agree that a secular jew with no belief in god or judaism or religion at all is more jewish that someone who converted to judaism and is a practicing jew, if..the non religious person has a jewish mother (regardless of her “judaism”)

        this jewish mother thing, that’s dna. that’s not judaism. it’s carried on by the mother. that’s ethnicity. you can have no judaism in your family for generations and you’ll get into israel as long as your mother’s mother’s mother etc was jewish – by BIRTHRIGHT, not by religion.

        Annie Robbins
        March 12, 2015, 10:37 am
        maximus, race is not the same as ethnicity. the terms are not interchangeable in their definition. they are however treated the same legally wrt laws, hate crimes and persecution.

        As much as I hate to agree with Annie, here she is right twice a day (or maybe 1.5 times), like the proverbial broken clock. Being a Jew is more than Judaism (whatever the hell “Judaism” – a term that was not even used by Jews until recently in history even means). Some minor quibbles I have with her comment is her saying “who you’ll get into israel as long as your mother’s mother’s mother etc was jewish – by BIRTHRIGHT, not by religion”. This is actually false. The State of Israel allows people to obtain Israeli citizenship if any one of four grandparents was demonstrably Jewish, even if it was a paternal grandfather. This actually contravenes traditional Jewish halakhic standards of determining religious identity. If you have to go back more than three generations to trace a Jewish ancestor, at the great grandparent level and beyond, even if your “mother’s s mother’ mother’s etc.” was demonstrably Jewish (which would make one Jewish according to Orthodox halakhic Jewish law), Israeli citizenship is not a given.

      • eljay on March 17, 2015, 10:17 am

        || Mikhaeleee: I’m not the one who started adding superfluous vowels to the end of people’s names. That would be you, and that would make you juvenile, obnoxious and a jerk. ||

        Let’s see:
        – I added three letters to the end of your username.
        – You called me “juvenile”, “Eljerkeeeeee” and, now, ” juvenile, obnoxious and a jerk”.

        Your petulance is amusing. :-)

        || Since there is no such thing as a “religion-supremacist” Jewish state

        Correct – it’s religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

        || I’ll respond point by point in as much detail as necessary to counter your lies. ||

        1. I haven’t lied, so if you’re not being paid by the word/keystroke and you’re not compensating, maybe you just really enjoy typing. Whatever floats your boat.
        2. Your frequent and wordy responses never fail to confirm my assertions. Keep up the good work. :-)

      • Mikhael on March 19, 2015, 12:45 am

        eljay March 17, 2015, 10:17 am

        Let’s see:
        – I added three letters to the end of your username.
        – You called me “juvenile”, “Eljerkeeeeee” and, now, ” juvenile, obnoxious and a jerk”.

        Eljerkeeeee,

        It is juvenile , obnoxious and jerky behavior to add superfluous vowels to the end of people’s names.

        Correct – it’s religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

        For Israel to be a religion-supremacist state would imply that religious law is the sole or main source of civic legislation. This is not the case, to the ongoing dismay of some elements in Israeli-Jewish society (as well as Orthodox Jews living outside of Israel) who would prefer that Israeli society reflect that vision. It is nevertheless a Jewish state, in that the majority of its populace are of Jewish national origins (because to be a Jew means one is of a certain national and ethnic background) and the state has a duty to advocate and protect the interests of the Jewish Diaspora and offer them a home in their ancestral national homeland, just like other nation-states (e.g., Armenia, Greece, Hungary, Albania, Germany) are states of those national groups.

        1. I haven’t lied, so if you’re not being paid by the word/keystroke and you’re not compensating, maybe you just really enjoy typing. Whatever floats your boat.
        2. Your frequent and wordy responses never fail to confirm my assertions. Keep up the good work. :-)

        Anyone reviewing your Mondoweiss comment feed can readily see that you spend much more time commenting here than do I, so in sheer verbiage and prolixity, I can’t compete with you. (I actually have a job and children to support.) You have left over 8,000 posts on MW to my ~400 since 2009. Of course, I would never suggest that you get paid by the number of posts you leave on MW just because you seem to spend an inordinate amount commenting on this blog. I do take into account that you are able to post so prolifically because very little thinking, knowledge or analysis go into your posts and much of it is repeating nonsensical mantras, but whatever floats your boat.

      • eljay on March 19, 2015, 11:48 am

        || Mikhaeleee: Eljerkeeeee, It is juvenile , obnoxious and jerky behavior to add superfluous vowels to the end of people’s names. ||

        Being a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist is much worse. You win.

        || For Israel to be a religion-supremacist state would imply that religious law is the sole or main source of civic legislation. ||

        Religion-supremacist implies that the state is primarily of and for people who…
        – have undergone a religious conversion to Judaism; or
        – are descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism,
        …regardless of whether they have any tangible ties to the state (i.e., they were born in it, are refugees from it, are up to n-generations removed from it).

        || Anyone reviewing your Mondoweiss comment feed can readily see that you spend much more time commenting here than do I, so in sheer verbiage and prolixity, I can’t compete with you. ||

        Anyone reviewing our comment feeds will see that you type more in one post than I type in one day. You win again.

        || I do take into account that you are able to post so prolifically because very little thinking, knowledge or analysis go into your posts … ||

        As opposed to your posts, which consist of overly-wordy but carefully-crafted Zio-supremacist propaganda. You’re three for three – bravo! :-)

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 9, 2015, 5:34 pm

      I agree. The only thing Jews have in common is religion, whether or not they practice it. There is no ‘Jewish ethnicity’. There is – maybe – an Ashkenazi ethnicity – but you only have to put a Polish Jew next to a Yemeni Jew to see there is no such thing as a ‘Jewish race’.

      • Mikhael on March 10, 2015, 10:35 am

        Maximus Decimus Meridius March 9, 2015, 5:34 pm
        I agree. The only thing Jews have in common is religion, whether or not they practice it. There is no ‘Jewish ethnicity’. There is – maybe – an Ashkenazi ethnicity – but you only have to put a Polish Jew next to a Yemeni Jew to see there is no such thing as a ‘Jewish race’.

        There is no Jewish “race”–but there is a Jewish people and a Jewish nation. A shared national identity is not contingent upon phenotypical similarity but upon a shared heritage and culture and sense of identity. If you are going to argue that Jews can’t have a shared national identity because Jews of Yemenite background tend to look different than Ashkenazi Jews whose ancestors lived in Poland (many Ashkenazim with roots in places like Poland look very stereotypically Levantine, by the way) then you have to make the same argument vis -a- vis Palestinian Arabs for consistency. There are very many light-skinned, blond and blue/green-eyed Palestinian Arabs and there are very dark-skinned Palestinian Arabs (some of whom look like like sub-Saharan African blacks and some of whom look Yemeni). The diversity in appearance among Palestinian Arabs does not militate against them having a shared national identity.

        Moreover, despite the diversity in Jewish phenotypes, Jews do, overall, share common Jewish ancestral roots. While it is certainly true that conversions occurred and Jews also share some ancestry with the host populations of the Diaspora countries in which they dwelled, in a very real sense Jews from places like Poland had more common ancestry with Jews from places like Syria and Iraq than with the non-Jewish Poles.

        At any rate, like it or not, in today’s Israel, Jews whose ancestors once lived in places like Poland, Yemen, Hungary and Syria routinely marry each other. The Ashkenazi/Mizrahi/Sefaradi “ethnic” divide is fast fading. (I am a product of such a union, my parents married when such things were *relatively* rare back in the late 1950s/early 1960s, today such marriages constitute about half of all marriages in Israel. ) We tend to see each other as Jews and Israelis, more or less interchangeably, first and foremost. So people like you can protest and deny that Jews are one people, but it won’t affect our reality. You can’t unscramble the egg.

      • Mooser on March 10, 2015, 12:11 pm

        ” You can’t unscramble the egg.”

        You should worry more about hatching a few. There’s another egg you can’t unscramble, and that is, in spite of all your racist blather, Judaism is a voluntary self-identification, almost everywhere except Israel.
        You make being Jewish stupid, unpleasant, and dangerous, and people will stop. You got a way to keep em, macher? You got a way to stop them from leaving or changing? Let’s hear it.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 10, 2015, 1:22 pm

        ”The diversity in appearance among Palestinian Arabs does not militate against them having a shared national identity.”

        Actually, there is nowhere near as much ‘diversity in appearance’ among Palestinians as there is among Jews. I can’t say I’ve ever seen a Palestinian who looks like a ‘sub Saharan black’, for example. But in any case, Palestinians have other things which mark them as a nation – a shared language, culture and geographic origin.

        Jews have none of that. Name me one thing that an Iranian Jew has in common with a British Jew, other than religion. Jews are a religious group, not an ethnic one. A gentile can, if he/she chooses, convert to Judaism and thereby become a Jew, just as a Jew can convert to another religion and lose his/her Jewish ‘nationality’. Same as with all other religions, but not with ethnicities. A black person cannot just decide to become white, or vice versa. How can Jews be a race, if membership is voluntary?

      • wondering jew on March 10, 2015, 5:45 pm

        Jewish nationalism circa 2015 is essentially different than Jewish nationalism circa 1881 or circa 1939. Because of the lack of a common language and a common land (other than the common language of the Bible and the common land cited in the Bible) it is easiest to assert that Jewish is a religious rather than a national construct. With the destruction (from 11 million in 1939 to less than 2 million today) of European Jewry, there are now two locations for major Jewish presence: North America and Israel. The national inclinations of Israelis has been commented upon and will continue to be commented upon. The national inclination of American Jews indicates that for the most part this inclination is dying (among the majority, whose Jewishness is atrophying, certainly the national inclination aspect of the Jewish identity is atrophying at a similar or even accelerated rate.)

        Thus any attempt to evaluate Jewish identity today among American Jews must note this decaying identity. Yet, the past is a stubborn thing, especially for students of the past and to pretend that the nature of Jewish identity in the last 140 years is somehow dismissible, based upon some dictionary definition of “what is a Jew?” shows the arrogance of amateurs and outsiders. Not every jewish individual dives into the history of the Jewish people over the past century and a half with anything approaching the seriousness that would jar their identity out of the easiest path of considering history as irrelevant. this is the american way, for the most part. america- the land of the new, leaving the past behind. so americanism discourages historical consciousness. but a jew who chooses historical consciousness would recognize the nuances of Jewish identity over the last 140 years and would not dismiss it because of some dictionary definition.

      • Mooser on March 10, 2015, 8:43 pm

        ‘the last 140 years is somehow dismissible, based upon some dictionary definition of “what is a Jew?” shows the arrogance of amateurs and outsiders”

        I’m with you, Yonah. I don’t need any outsider telling me what Judaism should be!
        Judaism will be what Jews want it to be. And I really doubt you will get any chance to pass judgement on what it will be. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if the Zionist Orthodoxy doesn’t become the model for almost everything Jews don’t want to be.

        But one thing I can guarantee you, Yonah, they will be what they want, or they won’t be Jews. You can’t get the Gentiles to do you that little favor again.

        But this is ridiculous, what it comes down to Yonah, is pretty clear: you would see Judaism die, and dance at its grave, if Judaism doesn’t dance to your tune. Well, pal, that’s your problem, and you can’t make it anybody else’s.
        Or are you deigning to tell us what G-d wants for Judaism? Has He told you?

      • wondering jew on March 10, 2015, 9:26 pm

        moderator- Do you really think giving mooser a free rein here in mondoweiss really helps the Palestinian cause. Letting him foam at the mouth really helps the situation in Gaza, the West Bank or in Israel? You really think so.? The message here is: Mooser hates Yonah. This is 7th grade freak out given a free rein.

      • RoHa on March 11, 2015, 5:05 am

        “Jewish nationalism circa 2015 is essentially different than Jewish nationalism circa 1881”

        No. Jewish nationalism circa 2015 is essentially different from Jewish nationalism circa 1881.

        Modern Israeli nationalism makes sense. Jewish nationalism, saying that Australian Jews are not real Australians, French Jews are not really French (Marsellaise notwithstanding), and American Jews are not real Americans, is crazy now and was crazy in 1881.

      • Walid on March 11, 2015, 6:44 am

        “… a free rein here in mondoweiss really helps the Palestinian cause. ” (Yonah)

        Yonah, you got it wrong, Yonah, it’s not really about the Palestinians.

      • wondering jew on March 11, 2015, 1:20 pm

        Roha conveniently mentions the Jews of America Australia and France in 1881 and omits Russia. Does Jewish nationalism make sense in 1881 in Russia, Roha?

      • Mikhael on March 12, 2015, 9:42 am

        Mooser March 10, 2015, 12:11 pm
        ” You can’t unscramble the egg.”

        You should worry more about hatching a few.

        I’ve already got four kids (that I know of), I’ve done enough procreating and I’ve got child support judgments from three women on two continents to prove it.

        There’s another egg you can’t unscramble, and that is, in spite of all your racist blather,

        Racism is a belief that the human species is divided into biological subcategories known as “races” and that mostly immutable and insurmountable differences exist between these races that are hardwired and genetically heritable and that is appropriate to favor or discriminate between members of these supposed races based on these supposed differences.
        Nothing I wrote can remotely be construed as “racist” or supporting racist ideas by anyone with an elementary ounce of what is known as “שכל” in Hebrew, the national language of the Jewish People.

        Judaism is a voluntary self-identification, almost everywhere except Israel.

        For most of Jewish history in the Diaspora until the 19th century, the only way to stop being Jewish was by converting to Christianity or Islam. In the 19th century, in Western Europe at least, avenues of assimilation and integration among the host populations were opened to Jews that were previously closed, such as university education and the professions, but whether Jews actively identified as Jews or not, Jewishness was largely inescapable to people of Jewish origins even when they underwent baptism.

        You make being Jewish stupid, unpleasant, and dangerous, and people will stop. You got a way to keep em, macher? You got a way to stop them from leaving or changing? Let’s hear it.

        Since most Diaspora Jews live in open, democratic societies like the US, where barriers to Jewish participation in the larger society that once existed have basically completely fallen, Jews, like all Americans, are free to reinvent themselves and identify as they wish. I have no desire to “stop” people from doing so and leaving the Jewish fold if that is what they wish to do. Let them disappear into the melting pot, why not? In the USA, outside the Orthodox communities, the rate of intermarriages among Jews and non-Jews is 70% and climbing. The intermarried Jews and their progeny will mostly vanish from the Jewish community and only some Jewish-sounding names will hint at their heritage. The Orthodox communities will hold on in their enclaves and will send many of their children to Israel, with some very slight attrition in their numbers due to dropouts and extremely rare cases of intermarriage, with occasional influxes of assimilated Jews either joining the Orthodox communities, or discovering Zionism, or both, and/or making aliyah. So in the near future, outside of Israel, most Jews will be Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox. While it is certainly true that in Israel , Orthodoxy and ultra-Orthodoxy are ascendant, it is still the only place where a secular Jew can live a fully Jewish life. Diaspora Jews living in places like the US, Australia or Canada, who won’t or can’t appreciate and who don’t want want to become bearded or be-sheiteled haredi freaks and live in Boro Park should feel free to embrace the freedom to discard their Jewishness that was denied to their ancestors who lived in the shtetels of Poland or the mellahs of Morocco. Door’s wide open, these are free countries, and if we’re talking about people like you, it’s not much of a loss.

      • annie on March 12, 2015, 10:37 am

        maximus, race is not the same as ethnicity. the terms are not interchangeable in their definition. they are however treated the same legally wrt laws, hate crimes and persecution.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

        An ethnic group or ethnicity is a socially defined category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience.[1][2] Membership of an ethnic group tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, origin myth, history, homeland, language and/or dialect and sometimes ideology, manifests itself through symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc.

        this is not race. it is primarily combinations of cultural and sociopolitical constructs and involve how people self identify.

      • RoHa on March 12, 2015, 3:32 pm

        “Does Jewish nationalism make sense in 1881 in Russia, Roha? ”

        No. Russian Jews were not a nation in 1881, either.

      • wondering jew on March 13, 2015, 3:36 pm

        RoHa- Yes, I understand that you assert that the Jews are not a nation. but the russians, meaning the Czars and many of their subjects asserted through the force of laws (the czars) and arms (the populace) that they considered the Jews not to be part of the Russian nation. You might from this perspective tell the Russians that they were wrong, but they can’t hear you from here. And to assert the non nationhood of the Jews by referring to countries that did not explicitly view the Jews as some kind of alien presence and who at least on the books considered all citizens to be equal, while ignoring the largest single population of Jews in 1881 where they were considered alien and where they suffered as a result of that ideation, where even after the revolution their papers always noted that they were Jews, to not mention Russia in your list of countries from 1881 shows that you are not interested in the truth, but in obfuscation.

      • RoHa on March 14, 2015, 4:46 am

        If the Jews in Russia repudiated Russianness, and held themselves not to be Russian, then I would suggest that the Tsars had a case.

        If not, if the Jews intended to be Russian but were repudiated by the Russian establishment, then the Tsars were wrong. I don’t see how the fact that they can’t hear me now could make them right.

        I can understand that being repudiated could easily lead to Russian Jews believing that they were not Russians, but that belief does not make them a nation.

      • Mooser on March 15, 2015, 1:51 am

        “should feel free to embrace the freedom to discard their Jewishness that was”

        No, chump, Jewishness is not your way or the hi-way. You should be so lucky they will leave it.
        But see, by insisting over and over again, that Zionism is the work the aspiration of the entire Jewish people, you, the Zionists, have made it imperative that non-Zionist Jews declare their differences with the Zionists, as Jews.
        Sorry, Mikheal, but your passive-agressive excommunicatory threats will not change a thing.

      • Kris on March 15, 2015, 8:03 pm

        @Mikhael: “I’ve already got four kids (that I know of), I’ve done enough procreating and I’ve got child support judgments from three women on two continents to prove it. ”

        Such an odd thing to say, and repellant in so many ways. It reminds me of the report on mondoweiss some time ago that reported that sex in nightclub restrooms in Tel Aviv is considered part of the social scene there.

        That three women had to go to court and obtain child support judgments against you, Mikhael, is not something that would recommend you to most people outside of Israel, speaking as it does of irresponsibility and neglect. Maybe you went to Jewish schools in Israel, and that is where you learned not to honor your obligations to your children and their mothers?

      • Mikhael on March 16, 2015, 12:59 am

        Maximus Decimus Meridius March 10, 2015, 1:22 pm
        Actually, there is nowhere near as much ‘diversity in appearance’ among Palestinians as there is among Jews. I can’t say I’ve ever seen a Palestinian who looks like a ‘sub Saharan black’, for example.

        You are apparently quite unfamiliar with Palestinian Arabs and their diverse appearances and origins, as per your admission above. Nothing wrong with learning a few things.
        There are many Arabs who identify as Palestinian Arabs with sub-Saharan black African roots and whose appearance demonstrates that heritage. They can be found in the Old City of Jerusalem, in and around Jericho, and among the Bedouin of the Negev in such towns as Rahat (although most Bedouin traditionally do not identify as Palestinian) . The black Arabs in Jerusalem are mostly descended from African Muslim pilgrims and/or soldiers in the Ottoman or British armies from places like Sudan, Chad and Nigeria, Bedouin Arabs in the Negev are descended from African slaves purchased by white Bedouin.
        http://souciant.com/2011/10/black-and-palestinian/
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/8556358.stm
        http://yajaffar.tripod.com/african.html

        And of course, there are fair, ginger-haired, blond-haired and blue-eyed/green-eyed Palestinian Arabs and Arab citizens of Israel:
        Mira Awad:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mira_Awad#/media/File:Mira_awad.jpg
        (what a babe, I saw her in concert last year and she autographed an album for me).

        Suha Arafat with daughter

        http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-11-10-arafat-family_x.htm

        The Arabic-speaking people who have adopted a Palestinian national identity are diverse in their appearance and while they share some things in common–e.g., most speak a dialect of Syrian (Shami) Arabic (although the dialect of Gaza and southern Bedouin is a bit different) and many can trace their families’ residence to territories that were part of the former British Mandate of Palestine for generations, they also descend from peoples who migrated into the country from other parts of the Middle East, North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa and even Europe in different migratory waves, from ancient times until the 20th century. The idea that Palestinian Arabs descend solely and primarily from people who have always lived within the former British Mandate of Palestine and the preceding Ottoman provinces and what is now currently under the control of the State of Israel and the PA is belied by the prevalence of surnames among the Arabic speakers who have now adopted a Palestinian national identity, e.g., Hejazi ( حجازى‎) , indicating roots in what is now Saudi Arabia’s Hijaz region, Masri (مصري), meaning Egyptian; al Moghrabi, (المغربي), Espanioly (اسبنىولى) –(Spaniard), Turk ( ترك) and Kurdi (كوردى) (Kurdish) are but a few family names common among Palestinian Arabs indicating these foreign origins. Of course it is also true that Israeli Jews also have surnames indicating our wanderings in the various Diaspora lands and derived from cities and countries in the Disapora e.g., Yisrael, Deutsch, Baghdadi , Tsanani, Teherani, Berliner, Warshaw, Toledano, etc. But Palestinians have foreign roots as well–they did not collectively sprout from the soil as a nation. Certainly the fact that they have heterogenous roots and descend from diverse peoples does not negate the right of Palestinian Arabs to seek self-determination and a state of their own on the part of the land where they constitute a majority.

        But in any case, Palestinians have other things which mark them as a nation – a shared language, culture and geographic origin.

        ethnic one.

        Palestinian Arab culture is not significantly different from Lebanese Arab culture, Syrian Arab culture or Jordanian Arab culture. All speak essentially the same dialect of Arabic–although the Arabic of Gaza is a bit different. What is quintessentially Palestinian culture that can be found only among them that is not found among other Arabic-speaking Muslims and Christians from the region? The recipe Musakhan, for example? Maybe, but it is specific just to the West Bank and was not prepared by people from outside that area.

        Jews have none of that. Name me one thing that an Iranian Jew has in common with a British Jew, other than religion.

        Iranian Jews are a branch of Mizrahi Jews whose ancestors originated from Eretz Yisrael and settled in Persia. British Jews, collectively, are composed of a mix of descendants off Ashkenazim with roots in Central and Eastern Europe, Sefaradi Jews whose ancestors lived in Spain and Portugal before being expelled and resettling in other European lands (including Britain) as well as the Middle East and North Africa, and Mizrahim who had always lived in Middle East. Ashkenazim, Mizrahim, and Sefaradim are all closely genetically related population sharing common ancestral origins in Eretz Yisrael. In a very real sense, more than just religion binds different Jewish groups together. Excepting very recent converts, most Jews with roots in the historic Diaspora are indeed ethnically related to each other. In any case, since you mentioned British and Iranian Jews specifically, be aware that many Iranian Jews have settled in the UK in the past half century (where they often marry Ashkenazim and Sefaradim), therefore, some Iranian Jews are British Jews. Jewish communities separated by large geographic distances ,and living in disparate Jewish communities also shared common cultural attributes and a sense of national identity. The Hebrew language., although it died out as a vernacular until its revival, was always the language of scholarship and literature among Jews and influenced various locally spoken Jewish dialects. Yiddish, Ladino, and various dialects of Farsi and Arabic had rich stores of Hebrew vocabulary. Most importantly, Jews traditionally perceived themselves as a national group and were so perceived by others through most of their history. Only beginning in the 19th century was the idea of Jewish peoplehood challenged, mostly by assimilated Jews who were afraid that the new civil rights being granted to them by European governments would be taken away, now the notion of Jewish peoplehood is primarily denied by those who are opposed to Israel as a Jewish state.

        A gentile can, if he/she chooses, convert to Judaism and thereby become a Jew, just as a Jew can convert to another religion and lose his/her Jewish ‘nationality’. Same as with all other religions, but not with ethnicities.

        We live in the 21st century and in free societies, people are free to choose not only their religion, but their own sense of national and communal identity. However, this was not always the case. For most of Jewish history, Jews did not have this choice, and if they did choose to abandon Judaism, it meant literally cutting off all ties with their families and communities. Moreover, Jews and their descendants who converted to other religions often remained suspect and weren’t warmly received in non-Jewish societies-that’s why many “New Christians” — descendants of Spanish Jews who converted to Christianity were persecuted during the Inquisition (even those from families that had practiced Christianity for decades or centuries) and tortured to death for perceived disloyalty– solely on account of having Jewish ancestry. In the 20th century, of course, Nazi Germany exterminated many German Christians with 1/4th Jewish ancestry. Now I happen to believe in an individual’s freedom to define one’s self, but the fact is that that while a modern Jew may indeed choose to convert to another religion and declare him/herself a non-Jew and nothing can stop him or her from doing so, in point of fact, the traditional Jewish view is that Jewish status is irrevocable and can never be abandoned upon “converting” to another religion. “אף על פי שחטא ישראל הוא”–{Even though] he has sinned– he is Israel” http://divreichaim.blogspot.com/2007/12/af-al-pi-shechatah-yisrael-hu-r-tzadok.html. This remains the belief of Orthodox Jews–one born a Jew who is baptized a Christian, becomes a Shinto priest, declares himself an atheist, etc. still remains a Jew in the eyes of halakha, Jewish religious law. When the late late archbishop of Paris, Jean Marie Lustiger, who was born to a Jewish family publicly declared that he remained a Jew despite his Catholicism, this was something understood by most Jews even if they objected to his religious stance. Indeed his cousin recited the kaddish, the Jewish prayer for the dead, at his funeral. As to converts to Judaism. certainly, non-Jews can become Jews if they undergo a rigorous process of conversion– and while all Jews are almost certainly in part descended from converts to Judaism, this has historically been discouraged. The Hebrew word for a non-Jew who converts to Judaism, by the way, is “ger which literally means “stranger”. Although traditional Jewish sacred literature enjoins Jews to treat a convert with kindness and love them, those who convert religiously into Judaism always retain an element of foreignness. They are at best, naturalized citizens into the Jewish people. Their children who are raised as Jews may be “natives,” but a convert is typically not so regarded. In most cases, those who convert to Judaism usually marry someone who is born Jewish, or the Jewish-raised children of Orthodox converts marry “born” Jews . Unlike other major monotheistic religions such as the various versions of Christianity or Islam, “Judaism” (to the extent it exists) is the national cult of a historic people and is concerned with the restoration of that people to its land as much with (if not more than) an individual’s spiritual relationship with a deity. Someone baptized and/or raised with a belief in any of the forms of Christianity who later denies the divinity or messiahship of Jesus of Nazareth is no longer a Christian; someone raised Muslim who declares Muhammad was not a prophet cannot be considered a Muslim. A Jew who denies the sanctity of the Torah, that there is no God, and who eats pork on Yom Kippur is a Jew,.

        A black person cannot just decide to become white, or vice versa. How can Jews be a race, if membership is voluntary?

        You seem hung up on “race” and I am discussing peoplehood and national identity. But yes, I believe that people can voluntarily adopt a new national identity and reject an old one, or try to mix the two, as I stated above. For example, the Oslo-raised children of Somalis who immigrate to Norway who are raised in that country and know its culture as their own should ideally be accepted as part of the Norwegian nation if they identify with it. (In reality, unfortunately, blacks in Europe are often ostracized to varying degrees, and many — not all– Muslims in Europe don’t regard themselves as belonging to those countries even if when they are accepted.) Few peoples today are completely racially homogenous, and as I demonstrated above, the Palestinian Arabs have diverse racial strands. Jews have lived all over the world, and have mingled and bred with all kinds of peoples — the fact that Jews from different Diaspora lands sometimes look different from each other is not an argument that Jews can’t collectively constitute a national group. We also share a common heritage, a national language, and yes, most Jews do share a common biological ancestry traceable to the same geographic area with other Jews , although that latter element is not the sine qua non of what makes a given population regard itself as a nation.

      • Mikhael on March 16, 2015, 2:20 am

        Mooser
        March 15, 2015, 1:51 am
        “should feel free to embrace the freedom to discard their Jewishness that was”
        No, chump, Jewishness is not your way or the hi-way. You should be so lucky they will leave it.
        But see, by insisting over and over again, that Zionism is the work the aspiration of the entire Jewish people, you, the Zionists, have made it imperative that non-Zionist Jews declare their differences with the Zionists, as Jews.
        Sorry, Mikheal, but your passive-agressive excommunicatory threats will not change a thing.

        The beauty part is nobody needs to do any excommunicating. People like you are exiting the Jewish fold all by yourselves. We live in an age where people are free to leave; so buh-bye, good luck to you. The reality however, is that few Jews in America leave the Jewish community due to any ideological objection to Zionism. The majority of assimilated American Jews don’t even know what Zionism is. Most American Jews who cease to identify as Jews do so because, circa 2015, most come from families that have been in that country for three generations or longer, they are raised outside of traditional Jewish communities, most barriers to Jewish acceptance in the wider society have fallen while ethnic and religious ties have weakened and they fall in love with Mary Jane Jones or Tiffany Wong. Few know or care about Zionism either way. Then there’s a small and vocal group who have this inexplicable, implacable visceral rage against Israel, a small country thousands of miles away, and trade on their alleged ancestral Jewishness like it’s some currency to make their claims more valid. But they don’t have much an impact on the part of the Jewish community that is pro-Zionist (whether the Orthodox or secular segments of that community) and the Americans of Jewish ancestry who don’t pay much attention to Israel are not likely to have heard of the likes of Max Blumenthal, Phillip Weiss, Norm Finkelstein or Mooser. With or without the support of American Jews, Zionism will thrive because Israel will thrive. A country with a 75% Hebrew-speaking Jewish majority, most of whom were born in the country and prefer that the society retains a Jewish national and cultural character isn’t going anywhere, and it’s going to continue to welcome in foreign-born Jews, including from the US, who wish to make aliyah and become part of Israel. You can rant and rave about it, but this will continue long after you’re dead.

    • jon s on March 14, 2015, 3:26 am

      Talknic,
      Yes, that’s the Islamic Movement (southern faction). There was no particular reason that I wrote “Islamist”.

      • talknic on March 16, 2015, 3:50 am

        Ah … the wonders of brain washing. One of those Hasbara habits, so ingrained you didn’t even know you were doing it.

  4. ritzl on March 9, 2015, 2:44 pm

    MaxB tweeted that Rudoren said (big paraphrase) that N’u didn’t really mean it (may not have meant?).

    It was unclear whether Sunday’s campaign statement was a significant shift in Mr. Netanyahu’s policy and ideology, or a more temporary assessment of the regional reality (and the Israeli political landscape, where Likud has been losing votes to the Jewish Home party, which opposes a Palestinian state).

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/09/world/netanyahu-comments-cast-doubt-on-stance-toward-palestinians.html?ref=topics&_r=0

    Dimi Reider at +972 Mag was more on about how the sematics give N’u wiggle room (which may or may not be the same thing as Rudoren’s observation).

    (Update: Netanyahu’s Prime Minister’s Office has since denied (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/08/us-israel-palestinians-idUSKBN0M40XB20150308) that he made the second part of the statement released by Netanyahu’s own Likud party, but reinforced the first part of the statement. In other words, the prime minister is sticking by his explanation of why he won’t concede any territory in the West Bank, he just isn’t explicitly following through and saying he won’t do it.)

    http://972mag.com/netanyahu-two-state-solution-is-off-the-table-kinda/103982/

    Netanyahu’s statements are explicit, imho, but there seems to be a reluctance to “make the call” even at +972. Is that from a profound, generalized, abject fear of failure of the penultimate Zionist-but-coopted-and-internalized-as-a-Jewish project and how that might reflect on being Jewish (even though it doesn’t reflect on being Jewish)?

    • jon s on March 12, 2015, 2:26 am

      Yonah, I’ve simply stopped reacting to Mooser’s personal insults and schoolyard-bully pose.

      • Mooser on March 14, 2015, 6:18 pm

        “Yonah, I’ve simply stopped reacting to Mooser’s personal insults and schoolyard-bully pose.”

        Another words, you will sit there and take it. Good. Naturally, you have devastating rejoinders to everything I say, but you are just too dignified to use them.
        Okay, “Jon s”

  5. Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 9, 2015, 5:07 pm

    This kind of thing makes me want bibi to win even more!

    Yes, I know that sounds absurd, but let’s face it, with ‘moderates’ like Tzipi ‘Cast Lead’ Livni in power, absolutely nothing will improve for the Palestinians. However, the election of ‘moderates’ will allow the unctuous ‘libzios’ a chance to fall in love with the ‘real’ Israel all over again, and to indulge in the pretence that Bibi was just a flash in the pan. Never mind that he’s been the predominant figure in the Israeli political scene for 2O years, and that his opponents are different only in style, not substance. But of course, style is all important to the libzios. I just don’t want the like of Jonathan Freedland or Peter Beinart to feel good about themselves again. Supporting Israel should have a cost, even if it’s only in terms of one’s peace of mind.

  6. Neil Schipper on March 10, 2015, 3:38 am

    Philip Weiss, your second to last paragraph is remarkable, so I’ll remark upon it.

    The “security diplomatic” initiative would seem to refer to the demand that Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state, ..

    Such an initiative has no need of such a demand, and you provide no evidence that Herzog-Livni favor making such a demand, whether the evidence is drawn from election rhetoric or from prior statements or actions indicating serious commitment.

    .. language that Palestinian leaders have indicated they will not accept.

    The link appears to promise an article about the “Israel as a Jewish state” question and the case for rejecting it. However, the linked article is about a different subject, and mentions the non-acceptance in one sentence.

    And as for “the unequivocal definition of the State of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people,” ..

    Herzog-Livni are reiterating a core value of the Israeli street. Oppose this value all you wish, but again you’ve made no case that Herzog-Livni would insist that any parties involved with a plausible security-diplomatic initiative sign on to such a definition or value. As many have pointed out, these symbolism-heavy distractions didn’t get in the way of accords reached with Egypt and Jordan. (Israel could “define” itself, idiotically, as sushi-centric and hummus-phobic, and there still could be diplomatic advances. Ditto for Palestine.)

    .. it was Netanyahu’s legislation that called for just that that caused his government to collapse last year.

    The link appears to promise an article about the fall of the coalition. The linked article (which is unusually superficial and screechy .. “politicans care about power!”, “politicans are egotistical!”) is mainly about how rickety the coalition was from the get-go (and who didn’t already know that?). It mentions the actual collapse and “the controversial bill to define Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people” ever so briefly.

    .. amid widespread outrage ..

    Finally, an article that’s actually about the ‘Jewish nation-state’ bill.. except.. it demonstrates Dahlia Scheindlin’s outrage, and contains not an iota of evidence for any widespread outrage.

    I’m not defending that particular legislation. I’m noticing political writing lacking in self-awareness of its failure to make its case.

    Finally, about those wild and wacky Israeli coalition governments, as I wrote a week or two back:

    I sometimes wonder what goes on in the minds of the elites of the Arab world — all the “Ministers of the Interior”, the oil and public works ministers, the judges, the UN representatives who drearily cast votes condemning Israel for “violations of international law”, and their jet-setting, shopaholic families — when they behold an Israeli election, noisy and bloodless. What do they make of its aftermath, the coalition formation process, with personalities as disparate as Livni and Lapid, Bennet and Lieberman, all agreeing to join a governing cabinet?

    Throughout the region, and well beyond, political power remains for the most part wielded by vicious unaccountable alpha-of-the-pack wolves, their power maintained by networks of paid thugs.

    “Whatabouterry” — it’s deep.

  7. Misterioso on March 10, 2015, 12:00 pm

    If I remember international law correctly, Israel should not be referred to as a “state” because it has yet to declare its borders and have them accepted as such by the international community.

    • Mooser on March 10, 2015, 12:14 pm

      “If I remember international law correctly, Israel should not be referred to as a “state” because it has yet to declare its borders and have them accepted as such by the international community.”

      If I remember my Talknic aright, Israel did all that, to gain recognition, and then blithely proceeded to operate and grab more territory outside those borders ever since.

    • talknic on March 11, 2015, 10:03 pm

      @ Misterioso You’ll find that Israel did indeed proclaim its borders in order to be recognized and that’s exactly how the US, Russia, Australia, the UK etc recognized Israel http://wp.me/pDB7k-Xk there you’ll find links to indisputable documents

      BTW Purposefully not mentioning borders in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel only means they purposefully didn’t mention the borders.

  8. Pixel on March 11, 2015, 6:22 am

    So, both guys used the word “apartheid”.

    It seems like just yesterday when a few brave people in a few brave places (e.g., MW) were ever-so-tentatively tiptoeing toward the use of that word.

    Now look. wow.

    (There’s still so far to go but I marvel at how far things have come already.)

  9. crone on March 14, 2015, 5:01 pm

    moderator- Do you really think giving mooser a free rein here in mondoweiss really helps the Palestinian cause. Letting him foam at the mouth really helps the situation in Gaza, the West Bank or in Israel? You really think so.? The message here is: Mooser hates Yonah. This is 7th grade freak out given a free rein.

    Your appeal to the moderator is a smokescreen for the fact that you’re unable to debate Mooser… a 7th grade freak out? Projecting a little?

    I have great respect for Mooser… provide one, just one post by Mooser that expresses “hate” of anyone or anything please…

    Mooser defends Judaism and Jews in a kind and sometimes humorous way… imo… he endeavors to teach you but you are more supportive of zionism than Judaism, so you are unable to recognize the teaching. Open your mind and “hear” what he and others are saying wrt zionism. You might learn something… come to appreciate and protect your Judaism more. I say this as a non-Jew, in kindness.

    The great Lebanese poet Khalil Gibran wrote: Only once have I been made mute. It was when a man asked me, “Who are you?”

    • wondering jew on March 14, 2015, 5:26 pm

      crone- if you feel that mooser’s comment was apt, please cite my original comment and his reaction and show me that his is a rational comment. i don’t think you can. i’ll bet you a bud that your defense of mooser is only on general grounds not on the comment that i was reacting to.

      • Mooser on March 14, 2015, 6:21 pm

        That’s it Yonah, get bossy, and imperious. Don’t forget to be as officious as possible. That’ll show ’em!

      • crone on March 14, 2015, 6:53 pm

        Is this the comment you refer to?

        ‘the last 140 years is somehow dismissible, based upon some dictionary definition of “what is a Jew?” shows the arrogance of amateurs and outsiders” – Yonah

        And is this Mooser’s comment that you have a problem with?

        “I’m with you, Yonah. I don’t need any outsider telling me what Judaism should be!
        Judaism will be what Jews want it to be. And I really doubt you will get any chance to pass judgement on what it will be. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if the Zionist Orthodoxy doesn’t become the model for almost everything Jews don’t want to be.

        But one thing I can guarantee you, Yonah, they will be what they want, or they won’t be Jews. You can’t get the Gentiles to do you that little favor again.

        But this is ridiculous, what it comes down to Yonah, is pretty clear: you would see Judaism die, and dance at its grave, if Judaism doesn’t dance to your tune. Well, pal, that’s your problem, and you can’t make it anybody else’s.
        Or are you deigning to tell us what G-d wants for Judaism? Has He told you?”

        If so, I’ll start with your comment to me: “i’ll bet you a bud that your defense of mooser is only on general grounds not on the comment that i was reacting to. ”

        You lose, but I’ll take a Heineken, I don’t drink Bud :-)

        Reflect on your comment a moment, will you? You are accusing me of not reading the comment you made nor the response from Mooser. That implies a lot of things you think about me, don’t you think? Secondly, I read your comment (‘the last 140 years is somehow dismissible, based upon some dictionary definition of “what is a Jew?” shows the arrogance of amateurs and outsiders” – ) exactly as Mooser does… that is, your definition of what is a Jew is THE definition… others don’t count (which, some would say is arrogant in and of itself).

        In my opinion there is nothing irrational about Mooser’s response to you. Clever, yes… irrational, no. What you fail to grasp from his comment is Mooser’s suggestion that Judaism is not easily defined, that Jews are not an organization that acts as a single unit – a monolith. .. that no one, not even another Jew, can define what a Jew means when s/he says “I’m a Jew” – BUT, all of this is presumptuous of me. I have no business thinking I know what Mooser means. Goodness, half the time I don’t know what I mean to say! I’m just trying to illustrate to you that there is no “I hate Yonah” in Mooser’s comment. Let’s leave it at that. Mooser is far too complex for me to dissect.

        I made the first request – that you post a comment from Mooser wherein he expresses hate of anyone or anything. You ignored that, and made a request of me (which I must say is standard M.O. for a zionist, imho of course). Since I am an old woman (as my name implies) it is difficult to change a lifetime habit of being polite in conversation even when I recognize I am being manipulated, I responded to your request.

        Now… It’s your turn. Where’s Mooser’s hate filled comment?

      • Mooser on March 14, 2015, 7:40 pm

        Well, I gotta admit, my comment was a little bit intemperate, but that bit about “ the arrogance of amateurs and outsiders”
        was pretty insulting.

        I guess the freedom for Jews to define themselves as they wish (with “the arrogance of amateurs and outsiders” if they wish) doesn’t mean much to a professional, and an insider but it means a lot to me.

      • Mooser on March 14, 2015, 10:44 pm

        ” that no one, not even another Jew, can define what a Jew means when s/he says “I’m a Jew”

        I know it means the person is willing to say that (“I am a Jew”) and since declaring that (or so I’m taught) can lead to everything from derision to death, and since there are so few of us (relatively speaking) left, if a person is willing to say that, (“I am Jewish”) I believe them. If they are even willing to sacrifice some self-interest in the service of their declaration, that’s convincing, too.

        On the other hand, if one believed that being Jewish was a state of entitlement, leading to elite status, or benefits, it’s only natural to want to narrow the definition to the authentic, and suspect any declared adherent of Judaism of being in it just for the benefits or status. And of course, not wanting the undeserving to share in the benefits of being Jewish. I can understand that. And of course, qualifying claims of Jewishness on the basis of self-interest.
        So I guess it depends on how you look at it.

        (Thanks for your generous thoughts, “crone”)

      • wondering jew on March 15, 2015, 2:44 pm

        crone- here is the part of mooser’s comment that seemed hate filled to me:
        What it comes down to Yonah, is pretty clear: you would see Judaism die, and dance at its grave, if Judaism doesn’t dance to your tune. Well, pal, that’s your problem, and you can’t make it anybody else’s. Or are you deigning to tell us what G-d wants for Judaism? Has He told you? –

        What precisely is my tune that mooser is referring to. and i suppose to a nonjew dancing on judaism’s grave is as innocent as buying candy at the grocery store, to me it is the height of hatred to accuse me of wishing to see judaism die and dance on its grave.

        and to invoke god in the conversation is the ultimate act of hatred. i am deigning to tell anyone what god wants. that is just a pile of feces. maybe you enjoy getting feces thrown at you, crone. i don’t. maybe in your secular family invoking god is as innocent as invoking santa claus. not to me. invoke god and you are playing with fire or feces.

        crone- if you wish to discuss something of some substance i am willing to, but your defense of mooser will have to continue without me.

      • Mooser on March 15, 2015, 5:21 pm

        “What precisely is my tune that mooser is referring to.”

        I made that clear, Yonah. I am referring to this:

        “‘the last 140 years is somehow dismissible, based upon some dictionary definition of “what is a Jew?” shows the arrogance of amateurs and outsiders”

        Uh, Yonah, I’m not much of a prose stylist, but reverence is always more convincing when you bother to put an capital “G” on it.

      • Mooser on March 15, 2015, 5:30 pm

        “crone- if you wish to discuss something of some substance i am willing to, but your defense of mooser will have to continue without me.”

        Hello, I must be going.
        I came to say I cannot stay,
        I must be going”

        “But if you go, you’ll spoil the party I am throw-ing!”

        “I’ll stay a week or two,
        I’ll stay the summer through.
        But I am telling you, I must be going!”

      • Kris on March 15, 2015, 6:16 pm

        @yonah, at 2:44 p.m.: “invoke god and you are playing with fire or feces.”

        This is how you talk about G-d?

      • just on March 15, 2015, 6:22 pm

        That’s shocking, Kris.

        That’s really beyond the pale, yonah. Actually, your entire paragraph is appalling:

        “and to invoke god in the conversation is the ultimate act of hatred. i am deigning to tell anyone what god wants. that is just a pile of feces. maybe you enjoy getting feces thrown at you, crone. i don’t. maybe in your secular family invoking god is as innocent as invoking santa claus. not to me. invoke god and you are playing with fire or feces.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/solution-disputed-elections#comment-143521

      • Bumblebye on March 15, 2015, 6:27 pm

        Yonah, your emotional lexicon needs to be expanded. The para you cite and claim contains ‘hatred’ simply does not. Try ‘scorn’ instead, and maybe some anger at your imperious obtuseness.
        You tend to show hypersensitivity to perceived (ie non-existent) slights and in other places are quite happy to openly insult others. Consider all your recent schoolyard taunts – leaves me and probably others wondering if you’re nearer 6 rather than nearly 60!

      • Kris on March 15, 2015, 7:25 pm

        @yonah: “and to invoke god in the conversation is the ultimate act of hatred. i am deigning to tell anyone what god wants. that is just a pile of feces.”

        Think about it, yonah–how is it “the ultimate act of hatred” to invoke G-d in the conversation? If Zionists listened to G-d’s voice as revealed in the Torah, the Jewish prophets, or Jewish holy men, the Palestinians would not have been suffering in a Zionist-made hell for 70+ years:

        “…33’When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. 34’The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God. 35’You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity.… ” Leviticus 19:34

        “He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

        “Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to him: “Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it.” – Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a ”

        Shouldn’t G-d (in deference to your sensibilities; normally I would just write “God”) be ever-present in the minds of all believers? And shouldn’t we try to understand what He expects of us? Isn’t it okay to talk about what we think G-d expects of us?

      • Mooser on March 15, 2015, 8:07 pm

        I am sick, sick unto death, of being talked down to by Zionists.

      • just on March 15, 2015, 8:13 pm

        I hear you.

      • seafoid on March 16, 2015, 4:48 am

        Talking down to you, Mooser, is impossible for Zionists. The word you are looking for is “aliyah”.
        Ziobots aren’t fit to carry your ukulele.

      • RoHa on March 16, 2015, 5:39 am

        It is shockingly incoherent, Just.

        I have noticed an increase in accusations of hate and hate speech over the last few years. (Not just on MW, either.) It may just be a passing fad but it is really depressing nonetheless. It suggests that large numbers of people (and not just Zionists) believe that a major feature of human society is hatred for other groups.

        And I simply do not believe this nasty picture is true. (An unusually Pollyanna-ish view for an old cynic like me.) Nor can I believe that it bodes well for us if this idea of mutual hatred is widespread.

        I hope it is just a passing fad, that people toss out these accusations because it is the fashionable thing to do, without actually holding any underlying beliefs, and that it will soon fade away.

        For I also suspect that when people are obsessed with hatred and accusations of hatred, it either promotes hatred in the accusers, or reveals a pre-existing hatred in them.

        And neither of these is an encouraging prospect.

      • just on March 16, 2015, 7:35 am

        Well said, RoHa. I guess that I should be grateful that I am still capable of being “shocked”.

        Thank you.

  10. oldgeezer on March 15, 2015, 2:30 am

    @Mikhael
    “I’ve already got four kids (that I know of), I’ve done enough procreating and I’ve got child support judgments from three women on two continents to prove it. ”

    Wow. You have won me over.

    I’m lost though. I’m sorry. Perhaps you could remind me of the issue besides your ability to produce sperm with, or without, an erection.

    (ps… not knowing how many kids you have created and bragging about the number of support awards doesn’t speak to your ability to make informed decisions and judgements. Just sayin. It might work if you’re a juvenile 20-something but after that no one is impressed)

    • Mooser on March 15, 2015, 3:46 pm

      “I’ve got child support judgments from three women on two continents to prove it. ”

      Ah yes, there’s nothing like court-ordered child support to multiple women to keep the old tribal unity in mid-season form.

      • Mikhael on March 16, 2015, 1:44 am

        Kris
        March 15, 2015, 8:03 pm

        Such an odd thing to say, and repellant in so many ways. It reminds me of the report on mondoweiss some time ago that reported that sex in nightclub restrooms in Tel Aviv is considered part of the social scene there.

        I think you should direct your outrage at “Mooser” who made the “hatch a few eggs” crack at me. I responded that he needn’t worry, been there, done that.

        That three women had to go to court and obtain child support judgments against you, Mikhael, is not something that would recommend you to most people outside of Israel, speaking as it does of irresponsibility and neglect.

        The word “judgment” may not have been the correct word to have used . I have no “judgments” for failure to pay, not in the US nor in Israel. I’ve been married and divorced three times, and like most non-custodial parents with children , I am the obligor when it comes to maintenance. Divorces are usually by nature adversarial proceedings, my exes obtained decrees in their favor, and I inaccurately used the term “judgment” I’ve been married three times, once in the USA and twice in Israel, I have children from all my marriages and have always met all my child support obligations to all of my exes, even though two of them earn more than me.

        Maybe you went to Jewish schools in Israel, and that is where you learned not to honor your obligations to your children and their mothers?

        Israeli law is very strict regarding payment of child support. The threshold for being arrested in Israel for for failing to pay is lower than most US states, and I wouldn’t be able to leave the country and travel freely between the US and Israel if my exes would claim that I didn’t pay. I’d be detained at the airport. Never happened. And nice sexism too. Why do you assume that my exes are not professional women with good career? The custodial parent, in Israel as elsewhere, usually is the one who receives child support. I live part of the year in Israel and part in the US (where I have an adult daughter in college), therefore I have never had custody of my kids, therefore I get stuck with most of the bills, hence my perhaps inaccurate use of the term “judgment”.

      • bintbiba on March 16, 2015, 5:33 am

        Seafoid…..”Ziobots aren’t fit to carry your ukulele”

        +1

      • Mooser on March 16, 2015, 7:24 pm

        ” It reminds me of the report on mondoweiss some time ago that reported that sex in nightclub restrooms in Tel Aviv is considered part of the social scene there.” Kris

        “I think you should direct your outrage at “Mooser”” “Mikhael”

        It seems I am responsible for the moral dissolution of an entire people.

      • Mooser on March 17, 2015, 11:25 am

        There’s nothing like Zionist family values. The stability and constancy of the Family under-girds Jewish life, and Zionism.

    • Mikhael on March 16, 2015, 1:48 am

      lldgeezer
      March 15, 2015, 2:30 am

      (ps… not knowing how many kids you have created and bragging about the number of support awards doesn’t speak to your ability to make informed decisions and judgements. Just sayin. It might work if you’re a juvenile 20-something but after that no one is impressed)

      Mooser made a crass and juvenile comment about me “hatching a few eggs” and I stopped to his level and responded in kind,

      • Mooser on March 16, 2015, 11:22 am

        Wow, I have I been a fool! Here I am thinking my religion obligates me to monogamy, and it turns out I could’a been a real swinger, instead of an old married man.

      • Mooser on March 16, 2015, 12:19 pm

        “Mooser made a crass and juvenile comment about me “hatching a few eggs” and I stopped to his level and responded in kind,”

        I’m very sorry. I had no idea my comment would cause you to do all that, all those marriages, divorces and child support. Must have been traumatic. I’ll try to think harder before I do that to anybody else.
        And to think, it was all going so well for you before I opened my mouth.

      • Mikhael on March 16, 2015, 2:57 pm

        Mooser
        March 16, 2015, 11:22 am
        Wow, I have I been a fool! Here I am thinking my religion obligates me to monogamy, and it turns out I could’a been a real swinger, instead of an old married man.

        What is your religion and what does your religion have to do with the human tendency to get married and divorced? You claim that you are a Jew, but since being Jewish is also a matter of national affiliation and ethnic identity, it doesn’t follow that you believe in or practice form of Judaism. Of course, unlike Catholicism, no form of Judaism prohibits divorce, and getting divorced and remarried is not inconsistent with monogamy. All my marriages have been monogamous (although polygamy was practiced in ancient Judaism, among Ashkenazi Jews it was prohibited for about 1000 years since the decree of Rabbeinu Gershom and it was relatively rare among Sefaradim and Mizrahim as well). Israeli law forbids plural marriages, although Israeli Arab Bedouin sometimes practice polygamy and the ban is lightly enforced among them.

      • annie on March 16, 2015, 3:26 pm

        being Jewish is also a matter of national affiliation and ethnic identity

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews#Who_is_a_Jew.3F

        Who is a Jew?
        Generally, in modern secular usage Jews include three groups: people who were born to a Jewish family regardless of whether or not they follow the religion, those who have some Jewish ancestral background or lineage (sometimes including those who do not have strictly matrilineal descent), and people without any Jewish ancestral background or lineage who have formally converted to Judaism and therefore are followers of the religion.[69]

      • Mooser on March 16, 2015, 4:46 pm

        “All my marriages have been monogamous”

        See what I mean? You try and have a conversation with these guys, and in return, they try and laugh me to death. It’s assault with a dull weapon, that’s what it is!

      • Mooser on March 16, 2015, 6:06 pm

        “Mooser made a crass and juvenile comment about me “hatching a few eggs” and I stopped to his level and responded in kind,”

        Even tho it’s very clear in the comment that the “eggs” I’m worried about “hatching” are better ideas about being Jewish?

        Not that I didn’t love “Mikhael’s Complaint”, your relation of marital glory on two continents. And you’ve given me the title for my next C&W hit: “All My Marriages are Monogamous”

      • just on March 16, 2015, 6:11 pm

        Too funny!

      • Mooser on March 16, 2015, 7:31 pm

        “What is your religion and what does your religion have to do with the human tendency to get married and divorced? “

        You don’t know? Get outta here! Really? I think you’re just trying to get one over on us!

      • Mooser on March 17, 2015, 11:59 am

        “Too funny!”

        Zionist Family Values.

      • Mikhael on March 19, 2015, 12:58 am

        Mooser March 16, 2015, 4:46 pm
        “All my marriages have been monogamous”

        See what I mean? You try and have a conversation with these guys, and in return, they try and laugh me to death. It’s assault with a dull weapon, that’s what it is!

        There was no contradiction in my saying “all of my marriages have been monogamous”. A monogamous marriage is one where the partners are faithful during the course of the marriage. All my marriages ran their course, but I believe they were all monogamous (I can only speak for myself, not my exes). I know that you stated that you hate the condescension when people tell you about what “Judaism” is, but I will nevertheless lower myself again to your level and explain to you (because I am a helpful chap) that you have a false notion that “[your] religion obligates [you] to monogamy” (I take it you mean Judaism) in terms of forbidding divorce and remarriage. This idea is not correct.

  11. crone on March 15, 2015, 7:49 pm

    @yonah,

    you have insulted me… you haven’t a clue whether or not I am ‘secular’ – I said I was speaking as a non-Jew… and you threw my family in to the fray.

    … when I have something of substance to say? my, my – another insult.

    I have nothing to say to you… now, or in the future.

    • just on March 16, 2015, 6:13 pm

      crone~ fwiw, I think he was way out of line, too.

      • Mooser on March 17, 2015, 3:55 pm

        Well one thing about Yonah, he’s definitely not Charlie!

  12. Teapot on March 16, 2015, 9:09 am

    @Mikhael

    I also support the creation of a Palestinian Arab state in portions of the disputed territories adjacent to Israel.

    That’s very generous of you. Could you maybe elaborate on what you mean by portions? For some reason Bantustans come to mind…

    P.S. They’re not disputed territories. They’re illegally occupied territories. You can tell yourself differently as much as you want, but it won’t change international law.

    • bintbiba on March 16, 2015, 10:15 am

      Teapot , + 10

    • Mikhael on March 19, 2015, 1:16 am

      Teapot March 16, 2015, 9:09 am
      @Mikhael

      That’s very generous of you. Could you maybe elaborate on what you mean by portions? For some reason Bantustans come to mind…

      It’s very stupid of you if Bantustans come to mind. The Bantustans, like Transkei or KwaZulu, were vast areas that black South Africans, many of whom resided outside of them in the rest of South Africa in townships like Soweto, were told was the state of of their citizenship in order to deprive them of South African citizenship. If Israel would strip citizenship from its non-Jewish citizens and the attendant full and equal rights they enjoy as Israeli citizens and then tell them that they were citizens of the PA while denying the PA any meaningful attributes of sovereignty, then perhaps the analogy might have some validity.

      As to the portions, it is not for me to decide, but I support something close to the 1949 Armistice Lines that were signed into existence between Israel and Jordan (erroneously referred to as the pre-June 1967 borders) with large post-1967 Israeli settlement blocs being annexed to Israel and the others evacuated (or, if the Israelis are willing to stay under Palestinian Arab rule if the Palestinians offer them citizenship or permanent residency rights). Most of Jerusalem, as well, should remain under Israeli sovereignty, though there might be some way to cede some its Arab-majority neighborhoods in the eastern half to a future Palestinian Arab state , places like Issawiya, perhaps. But there will be no going back to the Jerusalem that was divided by barbed wire of my parents’ youth and the Old City has to remain open to all faiths, as it is now under Israeli control.

      P.S. They’re not disputed territories. They’re illegally occupied territories. You can tell yourself differently as much as you want, but it won’t change international law

      They are obviously disputed and with an unresolved sovereign status. The “borders” that existed prior to June 1967 were mere armistice lines between two belligerent states at the end of hostilities. Has the Palestinians shown more flexibility with other Israeli leaders and not made nonsensical, impossible demands like the return of “refugees”, they might have had their state in something close to those borders
      several years ago, now we will be stuck with more intransigent leadership from both sides for a while more.

      • Teapot on March 20, 2015, 9:22 pm

        Mikhael, I was going to write a long answer, but talknic has pretty much said it all (and much better than I would have).

        You say Israel should get to annex large settlements and most if not all of Jerusalem, but you fail to give one legally valid reason for this.

  13. talknic on March 20, 2015, 2:35 pm

    @ Mikhael ” If Israel would strip citizenship from its non-Jewish citizens and the attendant full and equal rights they enjoy as Israeli citizens and then tell them that they were citizens of the PA while denying the PA any meaningful attributes of sovereignty, then perhaps the analogy might have some validity”

    Israel has stripped non-Jewish Israelis of their rights you stupid stupid person. Non-Jews who have a right to return to Israel (as proclaimed by the Israeli govt 15th May 1948 http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf ) are Israeli citizens http://pages.citebite.com/b3n4r7v9f8xit

    ” I support something close to the 1949 Armistice Lines that were signed into existence between Israel and Jordan (erroneously referred to as the pre-June 1967 borders) with large post-1967 Israeli settlement blocs being annexed to Israel “

    Care to explain why anything should be annexed to Israel? Especially as Israel has no legal right to claim any territories beyond its proclaimed and recognized borders.

    “Most of Jerusalem, as well, should remain under Israeli sovereignty”

    Again, why? Israel has no legal right to claim any territories beyond its proclaimed and recognized borders.

    ” The “borders” that existed prior to June 1967 were mere armistice lines between two belligerent states at the end of hostilities”

    Strange, the Israeli Government proclaimed Israel’s boundaries effective at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) and was subsequently recognized as such (ibid)

    “Has the Palestinians shown more flexibility …. etc …. “

    Odd. It is ONLY Israel who has its military forces beyond its proclaimed and recognized boundaries and refuses to withdraw to its own territories. ONLY Israel refuses to allow the return of its own non-Jewish citizens. ONLY Israel illegally occupies and illegally claims territories beyond its boundaries. The Palestinians have long ago shown their willingness to forgo 78% of their rightful territory for peace with Israel. Israel has offered nothing, ever

    …nonsensical, impossible demands like the return of “refugees””

    Non-Jewish Israeli citizens have every right to return to Israel. It is neither impossible or nonsensical.

    … they might have had their state in something close to those borders
    several years ago, now we will be stuck with more intransigent leadership from both sides for a while more”

    Your fantasies are cute. Israeli forces have been in territories that the Israeli Government on May the 22nd 1948 claimed were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” for 67 years

    Your drivel doesn’t pass scrutiny

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