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MSM’s platform for Pamela Geller is equivalent to normalizing David Duke and Nazis

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A lot of the coverage of the shootings at the Muhammad cartoon contest in Garland TX yesterday is treating Pamela Geller as some kind of free speech hero. The New York Times, for instance, identifies Geller’s Islamophobia but promptly gives her a platform to spew intolerant ideas:

Pamela Geller, an outspoken anti-Islam activist and an organizer of the event, said the group decided to hold the event in the Curtis Culwell Center because members had heard that a Muslim group had a conference in the same room after the attack on the Charlie Hebdo office.

Ms. Geller described Sunday’s event as pro-free speech, and said that Muslims had become a “special class” that Americans were no longer allowed to offend.

“The media is self-enforcing a Shariah,” she said, referring to Islamic law. “Under the Shariah you cannot criticize or offend Islam.”

Geller also got to be feisty n fuzzy on CNN today. She was interviewed speaking passionately for the First Amendment’s protection of “offensive” speech and then Jeffrey Toobin described her in almost affectionate terms. She knew just what she was doing, he said.

“Perhaps it was a dumb idea for her to do it,” he ventured. “Is it good judgment? Does it contribute to a better political or religious dialogue? That’s debatable.”

While on MSNBC, Thomas Roberts gave the microphone to Katrina Pierson of the Tea Party, a supporter of the cartoons event, to say, “The whole world knows how intolerant Islam is.”

It is a sad measure of the amount of Islamophobia in our country that all these people are given a podium to hold forth. The media really ought to be more careful about who they’re jumping to defend. Geller is not attacking jihadists. She is attacking a world religion, with more than 1 billion adherents, and saying that that religion is essentially evil. And she’s on US TV! Why aren’t these reporters explaining this?

Imagine the neo-Nazis who marched in Skokie, IL, getting mainstream press microphones to deny the Holocaust. Imagine David Duke getting treated respectfully on national television as he promotes the international Jewish conspiracy theory of how the world works. It would never happen.

We are not speaking here about the First Amendment. Of course, Pamela Geller has the right to put up cartoons. This is about the place given to Islamophobes in the media. “Thank you for your insights,” Thomas Roberts said on MSNBC after Pierson spewed hate. The media would never perform this service for people who hate Christians or Jews. Jeff Toobin wouldn’t ask whether neo-Nazi ideas are “debatable.”

Moreover, they might actually examine Geller’s beliefs, without consulting her about them, to explain who she is. And they might even talk about the pro-Israel agenda. As it is, they are putting her forward as some kind of courageous American eccentric, like Madalyn Murray O’Hair.

On WNYC this morning, Brian Lehrer got a bit deeper, but he went easy on the group’s hate speech:

This activist group that held the Muhammad cartoon contest [is]… a political group with a political agenda. Openly pro-Israel.  nothing wrong with being pro-Israel. Very conservative in their views, though. Listed as a hate group by… the Southern Poverty Law Center…. They’re just trying to depict the Prophet in a satirical way in order to be in their face…They call it a freedom of expression event in Texas…

And then, only half-joking:

After this incident, should the PEN American Center consider giving the freedom of expression courage award for next year to maybe Pamela Geller’s group?

We wonder how that joke plays to Muslims.

James North and Philip Weiss
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176 Responses

  1. amigo
    amigo
    May 4, 2015, 3:19 pm

    Some 18,000,000 Americans are Muslims.These are who geller and co are insulting.

    Islam is the third-largest faith in the United States, after Christianity and Judaism. It is followed by 0.6% of the population.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States

    It is not a good idea to piss off that many people.There is bound to be a nutcase or two amongst them.I don,t think the us msm is doing geller any favours giving her a platform to hurl insults and abuse at so many people and I am just talking about US Muslims.

    Imagine if a muslim , or anyone else for that matter insulted Judaism in this manner.Not that they are to be given a platform to do so.Abe foxman would be up in arms.Btw , where is he on this episode.

    • ckg
      ckg
      May 4, 2015, 3:28 pm

      Do you mean 1.8 million?

      • amigo
        amigo
        May 4, 2015, 6:16 pm

        ckg , it,s not 18 million.However , I did some further research and the number is all over the place , ranging from 1.5 million to 8 million.Lets take the mid range and settle for 5 million.It is still a lot of people to insult .

        I must have been dreaming of my future lottery winnings when I did the calculation.

    • Keith
      Keith
      May 4, 2015, 3:51 pm

      AMIGO- “Some 18,000,000 Americans are Muslims.”

      As ckg indicates, 0.6% of 300 million is 1.8 million.

    • ckg
      ckg
      May 4, 2015, 7:10 pm

      In addition to Muslim-Americans who are insulted by her Islamophobia, there are a lot of Christian Palestinian-Americans who are insulted by her racism.

      • RockyMissouri
        RockyMissouri
        May 5, 2015, 11:17 am

        I’m not Muslim, Jewish OR Christian, but Geller is a hate/harpy/fame shrew who I detest. I know all about freedom of speech, but WHY can’t she have some couth about her?? Why does she get to foment ugliness, unabated…???

        I have a sense that the Chancellor who objected to Stephen Salaita would love her wholeheartedly.!

        Gross.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        May 5, 2015, 11:59 am

        Ayman Moheyyadin was brilliant on Morning Joe this morning mentioning that there are double standards when it comes to Muslims versus other minorities. He speaks really well.

        Indeed there is a double standard when it comes to free speech. When it comes to insulting Muslims, the Prophet, the Quran, then you see the arrogance when they brag about this being America and they are entitled to say any damn thing they want.

        Now when it comes to another minority, the Jews, you dare not say anything about them, Israel, Zionists, all things connected to that nation….ask Rick Sanchez who was accused of anti-semitism:

        “Rick Sanchez, a daytime anchor at CNN, was fired on Friday, a day after telling a radio interviewer that Jon Stewart was a bigot and that “everybody that runs CNN is a lot like Stewart.”

        The latter comment was made shortly after Mr. Stewart’s faith, Judaism, was invoked.

        CNN said in a statement Friday evening, “Rick Sanchez is no longer with the company. We thank Rick for his years of service and we wish him well.” NYT

        If poor Helen Thomas was alive she would agree too. She was demonized and called anti-semitic (funny, she must be a semite too) for saying the Jews must go back where they came from. ISN’T IT STRANGE THAT THESE AMERICANS COULD NOT EXPRESS FREE SPEECH?

    • akumaljack@aolcom
      [email protected]
      May 5, 2015, 9:37 am

      There are just over 6 million Jews living in the US. That’s around 2% of the US population.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 6, 2015, 2:47 pm

        “There are just over 6 million Jews living in the US.”

        Better sit down, it might be worse than you think. Of those six million Jews very few are just “living here”. Almost all of them are American citizens! And I’m pretty sure the US government has no way to tell them apart from anybody else!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 9, 2015, 11:30 am

        “There are just over 6 million Jews living in the US.”

        And how many of them can only “go into the pool up to their knees?” Or are they in addition to the 6M?

        Fact is, nobody really knows, in the US, how many “Jews” there are. Since nobody knows really, who they are, except by voluntary self-identification.

        So if there’s 6M who counted them? That’d be plenty goddam ironic, if you ask me (and hey, thanks for asking)! To live in a place where the government doesn’t count or register Jews, so Jewish institutions do it for them! Nice.
        And gosh-a-roony, if I wanted objective, factual information about a religion, I know where I’d go! Right to the religion itself, and ask it’s “leaders” to tell me.
        Self-serving is forbidden by religious law! See Genesis, Chap. 38

      • annie
        annie
        May 9, 2015, 11:52 am

        if there’s 6M who counted them? That’d be plenty goddam ironic, if you ask me

        mooser, once i happened apon a website that was nothing but polls about the american jewish community. at the time someone had asked how many jews were in long island so that was what i was searching for. i found a poll (and linked to it here so it’s somewhere in my archive) and the community was surveying jews wrt what they donated to and whether they raised their kids at a synagogue and things like that. what i noticed was over time it appeared as tho jews who lived independently from the mainstream community were dropped off the list.

        re the 6 million, i think there’s an agenda to show a population of less US jews vs israel’s more jews. because the population of US jews doesn’t seem to expand in numbers. and it doesn’t shrink either. i find the number strange and unbelievable. i rarely believe in coincidence, much less perpetual coincidence.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        May 9, 2015, 12:32 pm

        Maybe the, what is it–50% intermarriage rate ?–has something to do with the figure remaining constant? Maybe if you google “silent holocaust” you will get the latest figure, or no?

      • annie
        annie
        May 9, 2015, 12:40 pm

        perhaps. i don’t know citizen. but how does one decide who to drop and who not for the figure to remain the same year after year?

        besides, many of those marriages produce children raised in jewish households. i’m not sure how they count secular jews. perhaps it has to do w/jews who worship in a synagogue?

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        May 9, 2015, 9:58 pm

        “…where the government doesn’t count or register Jews, so Jewish institutions do it for them!”

        I think it is shocking that the government imposes this burden on the Jewish institutions!

        It’s positively anti-something-or-other!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 13, 2015, 7:17 pm

        “See Genesis, Chapter 38”

        Well, that little jest blew a fuse, and didn’t generate any laughs. Sorry.

  2. marc b.
    marc b.
    May 4, 2015, 3:24 pm

    “Perhaps it was a dumb idea for her to do it,” he ventured. “Is it good judgment? Does it contribute to a better political or religious dialogue? That’s debatable.”

    no, it’s not debatable. it’s not intended to ‘contribute to a better political or religious dialogue’. (Toobin is a certifiable moron, btw.)

    “imagine . . .”

    imagine muslims in Odessa, texas holding a public conference on the topic of ‘Kris Kyle: hero or cold blooded killer?’ imagine all the free speech advocates in texas defending the right to host that debate.

  3. just
    just
    May 4, 2015, 3:56 pm

    I guess that Pam Geller and Geert Wilders serve the agenda of the 1% and the MIC. Were they doing the equivalent of falsely shouting fire in a theater?

    “Schenck was later limited by Brandenburg v. Ohio, which ruled that speech could only be banned when it was directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot), the test which remains until this day. Despite Schenck being limited, the phrase “shouting fire in a crowded theater” has since come to be known as synonymous with an action that the speaker believes goes beyond the rights guaranteed by free speech, reckless or malicious speech, or an action whose outcomes are blatantly obvious.”

    http://freespeech.wikia.com/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater

    Sad day for America. Sad day for “freedom of speech”.

    I feel sorry for the local Muslim community and for the millions more that have reason to be frightened. It should be noted that the local Muslim community stayed away from the “contest”. 2 nutters from AZ descended on this obnoxious event and the rest is history.

    It also seems that this stupid “contest” was timed to coincide with awarding the PEN American Center’s Freedom of Expression Courage Award to Charlie Hebdo in New York on Tuesday.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/05/04/404215444/charlie-hebdo-staffer-pushes-back-against-writers-opposition-to-award

  4. pabelmont
    pabelmont
    May 4, 2015, 4:24 pm

    Imagine a cartoon contest to draw the most hideous caricature of a Jew, a la Die Sturmer for example. Would this be characterized as an “exercise in free speech”, as “hate speech”, as “incitement to violence” (but whose violence?), or what?

    The deliberate attempt, by full frontal public speech or “art” to attack the sensibilities of any people should be viewed as “hate speech” whether or not made subject to civil or criminal penalties. if someone is hurt in a business like this from the fully (if sadly) predictable violent response that we’ve seen, there should at least be civil damages agasint the organizer (Geller, here).

    Little boys, it is sometimes said, like to pull the wings off flies. But it is not nice, not to be encouraged. Fie on the press for not taking this line in the first paragraph and skipping all the other paragraphs.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      May 4, 2015, 5:14 pm

      The dead guys were stupid ISIS recruits. Fox News The Five panel (never self-identified as a) Jewish Ameircan, Gutman says it wasn’t an invitation to terrorize, not hate speech cartoons, not crying fire in a crowded theatre. Gutman says news media looked too much at background of Geller, too little at perps. (Imagine if in gun-toting Texas, Garland, an event was done soliciting a cartoon contest: Piss on Baby Jesus or US flag. or Who Can Draw The Best Swastika on a Jewiish Building? Souther Poverty Law Center says Pamela Geller is a hate monger. Leo Van Gogh was killed. Frank Colin was not. If Radical Islam is a danger, why is radical Zionism not declared so? Netanyahu, anyone? Fox The Five panel (by the token black) ended with a plea to ignore Pamela Geller, concentrate on free speech needs–disgusting. The MSM media is not following through, not adding the conflicting billboards between Geller Zionists v those of us who see rubber stamping of Israel, especial in Gaza, that de facto funding is WRONG.

    • Neil Schipper
      Neil Schipper
      May 5, 2015, 3:16 am

      Imagine a cartoon contest to draw the most hideous caricature of a Jew ..

      It’s easy..

      if you try

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 5, 2015, 1:03 pm

        Neil, if you are trying to prove that Zionism is basically anti-semitic, and uses anti-semitic conceptions to manipulate Jews, I have no argument with you. But if you want to point it out, be my guest.

      • talknic
        talknic
        May 7, 2015, 11:23 pm

        @ Neil Schipper ” Imagine a cartoon contest to draw the most hideous caricature of a Jew ..

        It’s easy..

        if you try”

        If you say so Neil.

        Meanwhile there are people Jewish and not who’re are quite hideous enough without need for a hideous caricature, who advocate the Jewish state remain in breach of the laws adopted in large part because of the treatment of our Jewish fellows under the $%^&* Nazis. Who purposefully encourage innocent Israelis Jew to illegally settle in non-Israeli territories, where they’re in danger of becoming a statistic as a consequence of occupying another people and their territory.

  5. joer
    joer
    May 4, 2015, 4:29 pm

    These constitution defenders have as much trouble reading the 1st Amendment as they have reading the 2nd Amendment. The 1st Amendment has something in there about freedom of religion along with freedom of speech, just like the 2nd Amendment has something in there about a well ordered militia along with the freedom to bear arms.

    Insulting a minority religion is absolutely protected by the 1st Amendment, and those people had a right to put up those childish cartoons and chuckle at them, but really, if the whole point was to prove that they have the right to insult whoever they want, then they could have had any other number of contests to see who could be the most insulting to Jesus, Chris Kyle, or any other number of sacred cows in our country. It is really pretty cowardly to gang up on Muslims here, where Christianity is the main religion. But Geller and company have a right to do it. And I have a right to call them bullies and cowards..

  6. catalan
    catalan
    May 4, 2015, 4:34 pm

    “Would this be characterized as an “exercise in free speech”, as “hate speech”, as “incitement to violence” (but whose violence?), or what? -” Pabelmont
    I think many of the writings of Giles about Jewish domination qualify as hate speech. Indeed, I think they are incitement to violence. He, and his supporters would disagree and say that they are just speaking the truth and I am embarrassed or paranoid.
    That’s the nature of free speech. It always offends someone. I don’t mind being on the receiving end of hate speech as long as I live in a country where all speech is protected.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      May 4, 2015, 9:54 pm

      “I think many of the writings of Giles about Jewish domination qualify as hate speech.”

      Except a quick perusal through your archive (let alone Giles’!) would quickly show how manifestly absurd an accusation like that is coming from you, “catalan”. You’ve completely shot any credibility you have in that area long ago.

      “He, and his supporters….”

      Sure, “catalan”, he’s got his own little stern gang of Irgun guys and they go around beating people up.

    • aiman
      aiman
      May 5, 2015, 5:43 am

      That’s like saying that someone exposing the power net of the House of Saud, its political meddling, great wealth and propping up Takfiris, is an Islamophobe.

      Enough with Zionists’ silly accusations. Good on Giles for speaking facts. Reflexive knee-jerk reactions stemming from self-entitlement and paranoia to the clearest of skies are not his fault; e.g. one minute Zionists are talking about fears of ISIL and next minute arming them (and finding a reason to justify that).

    • Keith
      Keith
      May 5, 2015, 5:24 pm

      CATALAN- “I think many of the writings of Giles about Jewish domination qualify as hate speech. Indeed, I think they are incitement to violence.”

      This is just the sort of thing that a Zionist attack dog such as yourself would say. In effect, a de facto defense of Zionist extremist Geller posing as a defense of free speech while insinuating that you are in danger of “incitement to violence.”

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer
      May 6, 2015, 12:57 am

      I don’t think you are paranoid and I doubt anything would embarrass someone such as yourself. You just seem to think the opposite side of the coin as someow different than yourself. Keep those delusions going buddy.

    • May 7, 2015, 8:15 am

      “I think many of the writings of Giles about Jewish domination qualify as hate speech.”

      But are accurate and fair, no?

      • May 7, 2015, 8:34 am

        One more comment on this topic.

        At least when the WASPs were the American ruling elite, we were not required to pretend we did not notice that they were.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        May 11, 2015, 4:38 pm

        @note to gs:

        The WASPs are still the ruling elite in America. cheer up.

  7. just
    just
    May 4, 2015, 4:38 pm

    “…Yet American Muslim leaders are already condemning the shooting and defending Geller’s right to exercise her free speech, hateful or otherwise. Ibrahim Hooper, National Communications Director and spokesperson for the Council on American–Islamic Relations (CAIR), told ThinkProgress his group rebuked the attack “without reservation,” and maintained that while Geller’s statements are unhelpful, her freedom of expression should be protected.

    “She has the right to do it, it’s a free country,” he said. “But one has to wonder why one would dedicate their life to promoting hatred and bigotry.”

    Harris Zafar, a spokesman for the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, expressed a similar sentiment on CNN this morning. Asked to respond to Geller’s assessment of the attacks as emblematic of a deeper “problem in Islam,” he explained that his faith actually embraces the belief that everyone should be allowed to voice an opinion without fear.

    “We stand with her and with everyone who defends freedom of speech,” he said. “We believe that everyone has a right to speak their words, and our faith actually backs that up — it champions free speech.”

    Zafar’s defense of Geller was not without caveat, of course. He blasted AFDI for their repeated attacks on Islam, noting that Geller and Geert Wilders, a notoriously islamophobic Dutch lawmaker who spoke at the event where the shootings took place, “are anti-Islamic” and that their language is “free speech, but it’s hate speech.” Still, he insisted the debate between Muslims and groups such as AFDI should be fought with words, not guns.

    “The greater point here is that a violent reaction is never sanctioned. Islam actually does champion free speech — it’s not just a talking point,” he said. “There is no evidence in the Qur’an or in the life of Muhammad that says that you are allowed to intimidate others by silencing them. Such acts like this or Charlie Hebdo or what others have faced is a gross violation of Islam and we condemn it wholeheartedly.”

    “The Qur’an says to respond to speech with speech,” he added.
    Over at the Daily Beast, Muslim-American writer and comedian Dean Obeidallah noted that this sentiment isn’t new among Islamic leaders, but that American Muslims have long balanced harsh criticism of Geller, AFDI, and similar groups with a passionate support for free speech. He referenced the fact that a local Texas CAIR affiliate asked local Muslims to ignore Geller’s event, and that no one from the surrounding Muslim community showed up to protest it. He also quoted Linda Sarsour, a New York City Muslim community leader, who told him that Geller can “draw any damn cartoon she wants and I defend her right to do so. I have always fought for her right to be a bigot and I have the right to counter her bigotry with my own speech.”…”

    more @ http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/05/04/3654474/texas-shooting-american-muslims-defend-anti-islam-hate-groups-right-speak/

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      May 4, 2015, 5:23 pm

      @ just
      It’s true that no Muslim Americans showed up to protest Geller’s event; OTOH, Geller said her event was done to counter the Muslim event at the same place last January (agenda: Muhammed was for tolerance, not otherwise), yet at the January event, tons of Christian fundies protested against that event. MSM has not told this to the US public.

      • just
        just
        May 4, 2015, 7:22 pm

        Very true, Citizen. Thanks for bringing that up.

        “Thousands of protesters and counter-protesters held American flags and signs outside of a Muslim conference in Garland, Texas, on Saturday night.

        “We’re here to stand up for the American way of life from a faction of people who are trying to destroy us,” a man protesting the conference said.

        The demonstrations began hours before the start of the program at the Curtis Culwell Center, which is operated by the Garland Independent School District.

        The conference is titled, “Stand With the Prophet Against Terror and Hate” and bills itself as a fundraiser to build a center dedicated to teaching Muslims how to combat negative depictions of their faith.”…

        http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Thousands-Protest-Muslim-Conference-in-Garland-288936351.html

      • Neil Schipper
        Neil Schipper
        May 5, 2015, 4:01 am

        It’s true that no Muslim Americans showed up to protest Geller’s event..

        Simpson was born in Illinois. Nadir Soofi was born in Dallas. (source)

        You may have a case, depending on how we interpret terms like Muslim Americans, or protest, or most particularly, true.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        May 5, 2015, 7:32 am

        @ Neil Schipper
        google the pics of the ton of “real Americans” who showed up at the January Muslim event at the same place, which Gelller said she was countering–Muslims didn’t do that to Geller’s event.

      • traintosiberia
        traintosiberia
        May 6, 2015, 8:15 am

        Thank you for refocusing on that event from a different angle .

      • MRW
        MRW
        May 6, 2015, 1:03 pm

        The Garland TX Census numbers.

        Population 235,000? High-school educations? Why there and not Dallas?

    • ckg
      ckg
      May 4, 2015, 7:30 pm

      She and Spencer choose their conference locations so as to be as provocative as possible. In 2012 she held an anti-Islam conference in Dearborn. Sort of like Neo-Nazis marching through Skokie. A few months later Terry Jones held a march in Dearborn.

      • ckg
        ckg
        May 4, 2015, 7:45 pm

        While everyone is debating freedom of speech and religion, I will add that I made numerous protestations to the hotel management where she held her conference in Dearborn, but I did not protest the Dearborn government when they granted a parade permit to Jones. The difference is that the hotel is privately owned.

  8. Kay24
    Kay24
    May 4, 2015, 5:18 pm

    What these two criminals tried to do is wrong. No one should try to stop anyone trying to express themselves, even their hatred, this way.

    That said, it seems no one seems able to control Geller, (who is banned from entering Britain, as she considered someone able to cause trouble), and her evil efforts to spread hate, false propaganda, and turn Americans against our Muslim citizens. This is pure incitement and provocation.

    Good question about David Duke, would he be looked upon with tolerance if he had some kind of event encouraging his supporters to draw cartoons insulting black people, or Jews?
    Or would there be outrage especially from the Jewish lobbies? True, no one will try to kill someone here, but then there would be outrage and protests even before the event takes place.
    Why is it that these islamaphobic elements are invited by congress people to this nation, and why are this provocative events allowed easily when it comes to Muslims?

    WHY IS IT FREE SPEECH WHEN IT IS ALL ABOUT ISLAM, AND IT IS ANTI -SEMITISM WHEN IT COMES TO ALL THINGS CRITICAL OF THE ZIONISTS? Then it is not free speech eh?

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      May 4, 2015, 5:26 pm

      Good question, I won’t hold my breath for the US mainstream media to chat with US public about it.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      May 4, 2015, 8:26 pm

      “Good question about David Duke, would he be looked upon with tolerance if he had some kind of event encouraging his supporters to draw cartoons insulting black people, or Jews? Or would there be outrage especially from the Jewish lobbies?”

      No need to ask. We know from experience.

      Cartoonists who produce cartoons critical of Israel get no end of shit dumped on them. Look at the Gaza cartoon in The Sydney Morning Herald as just one example.

      The Iranian Holocaust Cartoon exhibition was condemned by Kofi Annan and Reporters Without Borders, as well as the usual suspects.

      ” Why is it that these islamaphobic elements are invited by congress people to this nation, ”

      Which nation?

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        May 4, 2015, 10:13 pm

        By nation I mean the US, and I refer to the invitation given to Geert Wilders the racist, by Tom Cotton who happens to be in Congress.

        I was going to refer to that so called anti-semitic cartoon of the hook nosed man watching Gaza being bombarded with a remote in his hand. The Jewish organizations were so outraged, the SH withdrew the cartoon with a hasty apology. That is the perfect example. That cartoon did not in any way insult Judaism, unlike these attacks on the Quran, the Prophet, and the savage posters.

        Strange how the outrage is selective.

    • RockyMissouri
      RockyMissouri
      May 5, 2015, 2:18 pm

      Excellent points…!!

  9. Citizen
    Citizen
    May 4, 2015, 5:29 pm

    David Duke wants equal rights for all, just white US citizens here, others over there. A two state solution, yes?

    • Eva Smagacz
      Eva Smagacz
      May 5, 2015, 8:09 am

      Citizen, priceless

    • May 6, 2015, 2:59 pm

      I believe Duke’s focus these days is on the dangers of Zionism.

      Rather than just going along with the slurs against him made by the MSM, I would suggest you watch some videos he has on this topic (one with Wolf Blitzer comes to mind) and make up your own mind.

      In fact, I just visited his official website and that visit confirms my impression.

      There are just a couple of items on the recent killing of black men by cops and he does adopt the right wing view — but he is well within the mainstream in doing so (although on this topic he is full of shite).

      • Keith
        Keith
        May 6, 2015, 7:01 pm

        GILES- “I believe Duke’s focus these days is on the dangers of Zionism.”

        Be real careful with this guy. My initial impression is that he fills a similar role to Lyndon LaRouche by mixing together facts which are mostly (70%?) true with some outlandish garbage which will be used by critics to discredit the mostly true stuff. If you can’t hide it taint it. On Duke’s website right now there is an article which reads “New Genetic Study Confirms Racial Basis of Judaism.” He links to a science article which ostensibly backs up his claim. Of course it doesn’t. I am not a geneticist and don’t want to try and figure out what the significance of their study was, however, their conclusion that following the the last Glacial Maximum there was a migration from the Middle East into Europe has no religious significance whatever. This is pre-history. For gosh sake, all humans derive from a small breeding group somewhere in North Africa with successive migrations outward. So what? The point being is that this type of misrepresentation hardly speaks well for Duke’s credibility.

      • May 7, 2015, 8:39 am

        Yes Keith. Duke is a bit of a nutcase. His thinking in fact reminds me of Zionist thinking, only “whites” replace Jews as the superior race and the true victims.

  10. traintosiberia
    traintosiberia
    May 4, 2015, 5:46 pm

    Islamophobia was introduced in public domain by the Hasabar brigade using patsy and feckless figures . After Europe ,its now the tun of US.
    Accusation of Ahmednezad sponsoring Holocaust conference was spread in the same voice that also demanded more sanction and regime change . One player was suspended in Florida for using adulatory languages for Castro. Various figures on e board of President Carter run organization openly accused him of antisemitism and resigned from the board .
    Calling Israeli killer over Gaza assault cost a labor MP job and earned some jail time.
    Arun Ghandhi was forced to resign from US based Gandhi organization for speaking up of Israeli atrocities against Palestinian.
    Evangelics don’t have any good feeling for Muslim but they won’t start any calculated Islamophobic movement on their own. They don’t have the courage and space to do so visibly and publicly . The Zionist has offered them and guided them every step of the way.

  11. just
    just
    May 4, 2015, 7:40 pm

    O/T Though it sounds as though Chuckie belongs in the alternate universe of Pam & Geert.

    “‘Texas Ranger’ Chuck Norris warns of government plot to take over state
    Actor, martial arts master and conservative questions US military training exercise and praises Ted Cruz for refusal to believe Jade Helm 15 is no threat

    The actor, martial artist, and internet meme Chuck Norris has warned of a federal government plot to take over the state of Texas.

    Writing on the right-wing website WND, or WorldNetDaily, Norris discussed the potential for Jade Helm 15, a US military training exercise planned for July and August, to turn into a full-scale occupation of his home state. …

    …WND is no stranger to conspiracy theories. It has published articles questioning Barack Obama’s status as an American citizen and among its contributors is the rightwing blogger Pamela Geller, president of the group that hosted the “draw the prophet Muhammad” event at which two gunmen were killed near Dallas on Sunday.”….

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/04/chuck-norris-warns-government-conspiracy-take-over-texas#comment-51536553

    • ckg
      ckg
      May 4, 2015, 8:09 pm

      With the growth of the internet, it is becoming easier all the time to live in an alternate universe. Back in the old days, folks who lived in alternate universes had limited ways to learn and congregate, except for some places of worship and short-wave radio. Now we have a whole proliferation of sources available with just a few clicks of the key board that will tell me I’m right that the universe is only ten thousand years old, climate change is a hoax, Jesus is coming as soon as we build the Third Temple, Obama is the antichrist, and vaccinations cause autism. It’s even possible to know much of this through cable TV and radio talk shows, in case you can’t read.

      • just
        just
        May 4, 2015, 8:14 pm

        I reckon that’s exactly right, ckg.

        (Has anyone seen Ms. Annie?)

      • bintbiba
        bintbiba
        May 4, 2015, 8:23 pm

        @”Just” ,

        I’ve been thinking of Ms. Annie for a while now… I hope all is well and she’s just taken a holiday and having a good rest from us ‘folks’ !!

        I miss her lively comments and retorts !!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 6, 2015, 12:20 pm

        “I miss her lively comments and retorts !!”

        Yes, let’s get back to Ms. Annie! You know, she’s the only one, who sent me here with her regards for every one.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo
        May 6, 2015, 12:54 pm

        Humour, Razor sharp wit… And The Band!

        You have the full package Mooser!

      • annie
        annie
        June 27, 2015, 1:01 pm

        i just noticed this conversation ;) how sweet of you all. yes, i was in cuba at this time, and traveling back and forth. very sketchy internet in cuba btw.

    • ckg
      ckg
      May 4, 2015, 8:22 pm

      Just, I was wondering that myself today about Annie. (But I was wondering that about you a few days ago.)

      • just
        just
        May 4, 2015, 8:27 pm

        Thanks for that, ckg. I thought that I might have missed something while I was away. Turns out we all just miss her.

        Ditto, bintbiba!

      • ckg
        ckg
        May 4, 2015, 8:44 pm

        I can understand why all on the staff at MW may need a good, long rest now and then. We are a demanding and rude bunch. It’s difficult to think of any topic more controversial than I/P, and the rhetoric must often feel like slings and arrows.

      • philweiss
        philweiss
        May 4, 2015, 8:45 pm

        Annie’s been traveling, I do believe!
        Good for her getting some time off!
        Phil

      • just
        just
        May 4, 2015, 8:48 pm

        You’re right of course, ckg.

        Thanks Phil~ happy, peaceful, and fun trails to Annie. I very much appreciate the update.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 4, 2015, 10:03 pm

        “Annie’s been traveling, I do believe!”

        Whew! That’s a relief. I was worried she wasn’t ‘gentlemanly’ enough, ever since the “faithwashing” thread.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        May 4, 2015, 10:17 pm

        I look forward to having Annie back with us again. She does truly deserve some time off from all our ranting and raving here. Heh.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        May 4, 2015, 10:35 pm

        Nonsense! Time off? Who does she think she is?

        Annie should spend all her time writing sharp (albeit lower case) comments and moderating our comments. Especially mine.

        Phil should have chained her to her computer.

      • Neil Schipper
        Neil Schipper
        May 5, 2015, 3:43 am

        Annie away, you say?

        My posts have been held up for a mere hour or two recently, and not the usual 24.

        I had some weird theories bouncing around my head on that, but it’s all clear now.

      • John O
        John O
        May 5, 2015, 2:03 pm

        @Neil Schipper

        Don’t take it personally, Neil. Some of my posts also take ages to be approved. And they’re supportive of Mondoweiss.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 5, 2015, 11:24 pm

        “Annie away, you say? My posts have been held up for a mere hour or two recently, and not the usual 24.”

        Yes, Annie was very kind, and always tried to give people a chance. 24 hours is more than enough time for you to come to your senses.

  12. Krauss
    Krauss
    May 4, 2015, 10:09 pm

    The comparison with Holocaust denial is really halting.

    Remember that Geller wouldn’t have received this coverage if the event wouldn’t have been attacked. The only reason this story didn’t explode more is because she understood the risks and armed the event to the teeth. Had she not, we could easily have seen a mass slaughter.

    If the event wouldn’t have been attacked at all, nobody would have bothered to have interviewed her. The reason why this is an issue is the persistent prescence of violence around Islam. You’ve had a lot of anti-Christian stuff, like piss Christ to just name one, but there have been many others. Christians, at least Evangelical Christians, are routinely attacked in ways that are often designed for maximum humiliation. Yet nobody worries about Christian terrorism that targets people who attack Christianity.

    Yes, yes, “tiny minority” etc, but it is still true. Whenever there is an event attacking Islam – even if those attacks are immature, as they often are – the specter of violence is always in the background. The whole point of these attacks is to induce a very heavy price on people. Security cost more than 10K. How many people can afford that? Most people just wouldn’t pay that sum. And if you can’t pay that sum and you still persist, you’ll pay with your life, like the people at Charlie Hebdo. This is what you attack.

    And who is to say what is offensive? What scale are we using? Are you and I experts on Islam? Even the muslims who are offended are offended by varying degrees. There’s no concensus.

    Further, there have been large amounts of polls indicating that mainstream support for pretty extremist ideas are quite widespread in Muslim-majority countries. Like the support for death for leaving Islam, overwhelming support in supposedly “moderate” countries like Egypt.

    The reason we get a person like Geller is that any rational and reasonable debate has already been vacated by other people who are indeed terrified of attacking Islam, and for very good reason. This means that we either get no criticism at all or shills like Geller, which ends up doing no good at all, because if people like Geller becomes the face, then even more reasonable people will turn away (and rightly so).

    And the net result is that things like honor culture, intolerance of difference of opinion and anti-Semitism, which are all flourishing in the Arab muslim world in particular, gets no real scrutiny until an event like this, when it all comes up to the surface because it can’t be ignored anymore, and then it recedes quietly until the next (inevitable) attack.

    Finally, I do agree that Geller’s “war with Islam” is dumb. But I refuse a simplistic dichotomy which is either “you accept the premises of an extremist of Geller” or the simplistic any real criticism of Islam is by necessity “Islamophobia” pushed by muslim activists. Both are stupid and the only difference between the left and the right is which side of stupid they are on in this debate.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      May 4, 2015, 10:31 pm

      Remember that Geller wouldn’t have received this coverage if the event hadn’t been attacked.

    • gamal
      gamal
      May 5, 2015, 2:11 am

      “Are you and I experts on Islam?” yes, in my case, do you think knowledge of Islam is impossible, but that thankfully in its absence we can draw serious conclusions.

      “There’s no concensus”

      cool, thats witty (Sunni witty, hope it wasnt accidental)

      “and reasonable debate has already been vacated by other people who are indeed terrified of attacking Islam”

      Yes I get so frustrated Islam where is the criticism, thank you for your fearlessness.

      “This means that we either get no criticism at all” but “Are you and I experts on Islam”

      oh since you mentioned it

      “Like the support for death for leaving Islam, overwhelming support in supposedly “moderate” countries like Egypt”

      Egypt told you it was moderate? thankfully you haven’t fallen for it.

      If you hadn’t have brought it up i shouldn’t of had to post these links, you’ll thank me when we both get Rohaed

      So apostasy and the great news that Muslims know little of Islam and zilch about Fiqh, its the non-essentialized stagnation

      Apostasy, Freedom and Da’wah:
      Full Disclosure in a Business-like Manner

      Mohammad Omar Farooq
      September 2006

      http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CE0QFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fglobalwebpost.com%2Ffarooqm%2Fwritings%2Fislamic%2Fapostasy_dawah.doc&ei=DU1IVYy_LMOUasfogYgF&usg=AFQjCNGhaJBLVAeIG89ddpgwurde090uoA&sig2=tAK6dsE9rYQcYVgUrxby1g&bvm=bv.92291466,d.d2s

      He is one of them though so for background Frank Giffel, one of us.

      http://www.ghazali.org/articles/BSOAS2001.pdf

      She knew the risks? Really how many of the presumably many such events have been decimated a la Charlie in the US, seems to be more dangerous to walk while black, isnt a murderous shooting spree is as American as apple pie, looks like “they” are integrating fine, rejoice.

      I saw the perpetrators car, was there a tank in attendance and of course the FBI have been monitoring one guy since 2007, the condominium between IS and the US is a wonder to behold. Without serious struggle you will never see your rights again.

      What is it about Islam? and whom should we ask?

      Its in the Quran, that’s what I’ve heard.

    • aiman
      aiman
      May 6, 2015, 4:25 am

      You forgot to mention that Geller is a Zionist and the Islamophobia industry in the western world is profitably promoted by Israel’s supporters like the clash of civilizations meme. One only needs to read the comments on even the Charlie Hebdo awards controversy anywhere online that many of these hate-mongers are Israel’s supporters.

      Forcing quarrels between the West and Islam is a tired old Zionist tactic. Even the word “Islam” as used owes itself to propaganda memes of Lewis etc. against the grain of truly intelligent scholars like Talal Asad who has argued that it is a discursive tradition and not an object like Zionists make it out to be. If you think criticism of Islam doesn’t exist and Geller is filling the space, you are living in outer space. No religion and no religious group has faced as much criticism or scholarly concern in human history as Islam has in the last decade. As for Holocaust denial, you have proven yourself very good at misfiring that charge. I don’t consider you and yours any more sacred and worthy of respect than a villager in Latin America or Asia and I don’t expect anything more in return. It would be an injustice otherwise. Man, try to be equitable in your thoughts.

    • traintosiberia
      traintosiberia
      May 6, 2015, 8:26 am

      Yes it didn’t start tomorrow or this evening . There is a background
      Have you ever been to a building that is allowed to rot or forced to be used only by squatters ? Snake,roaches,and insects will take over and the people living there would be forced just to manage a bare existence .
      Have you been to a garden that was despoiled. and left after mass scale uprooting of all the rose plants and Cherry trees ? The garden will become infested with the weed and the grass .
      Afghanistan,Syria,Libya,and Iraq were those gardens . These gardens were destroyed by US
      America has the same potential if tomorrow’s America is ruled by Evangelic,S Baptists,Graham family,Falwell descents,with Liberty University ,Boykin ,militias ,and politicians like Santorum,Huckabee,or Gomer (? ) giving the intellectual and military underpinnings combined with simultaneous destruction or marginalization of the Harvard,Yale,Berkley ,ACLU,Planned Parenthood,separation of church and state concept, suppression or limitation of 1st and 2 nd Amendment ,general disregard of science and removal of ethnic or historical studies that challenge white Chrstian version of the worldview from the academy.

    • traintosiberia
      traintosiberia
      May 6, 2015, 9:57 am

      KraussMay 4, 2015 says–

      ” Further, there have been large amounts of polls indicating that mainstream support for pretty extremist ideas are quite widespread in Muslim-majority countries. ”

      This article goes a long way in explaining how and why –

      “The U.S. Encouragement of Fanatic Islamism in the Arab World
      by GARY LEUPP

      http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/05/fanatic-islamism-in-the-arab-world/

      • Kris
        Kris
        May 6, 2015, 10:19 am

        I appreciate your informative comments, traintosiberia, and also this link to a great article. Many thanks!

    • traintosiberia
      traintosiberia
      May 6, 2015, 10:06 am

      Try this PDF – page 10 and 15

      http://www.newworldeconomics.com/archives/2014/092814_files/TheFateofEmpiresbySirJohnGlubb.pdf

      The historians commented bitterly on the
      extraordinary influence acquired by popular
      singers over young people, resulting in a
      decline in sexual morality. The ‘pop’ singers
      of Baghdad accompanied their erotic songs
      on the lute, an instrument resembling the
      modern guitar. In the second half of the
      tenth century, as a result, much obscene
      sexual language came increasingly into use,
      such as would not have been tolerated in an
      earlier age. Several khalifs issued orders
      banning ‘pop’ singers from the capital, but
      within a few years they always returned.
      An increase in the influence of women-

      In the tenth century, a similar
      tendency was observable in the Arab Empire,
      the women demanding admission to the
      professions hitherto monopolised by men.
      ‘What,’ wrote the contemporary historian,
      Ibn Bessam, ‘have the professions of clerk,
      tax-collector or preacher to do with women?
      These occupations have always been limited
      to men alone.’ Many women practised law,
      while others obtained posts as university
      professors. There was an agitation for the
      appointment of female judges, which,
      however, does not appear to have succeeded.

  13. Mooser
    Mooser
    May 4, 2015, 10:11 pm

    “If it bleeds, it leads!” Geller is media gold now. She just made her US media bones! She can make blood flow, she is a media heroine. Expect to see her a lot, and see her methods lauded.

    • Kay24
      Kay24
      May 4, 2015, 10:22 pm

      I don’t know about that Mooser. This evening there were a few pundits criticizing her, and referring to her hateful ways, the fact that her group has been called a hate group, the fact that she is banned from entering the UK, the fact that she has put up bigoted ads on buses, spreads false information about Islam, the fact that her website has insulted the President, his mother, and accused him of being the son of Malcolm X! It wasn’t a nice picture, and the facts only made her look the savage.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        May 4, 2015, 11:28 pm

        @Kay24

        I doubt a court would hold that events like this or her ads rise to the level of criminal incitement. Personal, nonlawyer opinion.

        That said much of what she says is untrue and she should be pursued under defamation laws.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 5, 2015, 1:07 pm

        Geller has shown that her events can provoke violence. That’s all our media needs to know. She’s a star!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 6, 2015, 2:45 am

        “I don’t know about that Mooser.”

        Believe me, I hope you are right, Kay24. I do. But I think she just ‘made her MSM bones’.

  14. just
    just
    May 4, 2015, 10:20 pm

    Thank goodness that more people weren’t hurt in this situation.

    Does anyone else think it a bit weird that the two dead bad guys from a thousand miles away, who were armed with automatic weapons, managed to shoot the unarmed security guard in the ankle (he was later treated and released) and an armed traffic officer used a handgun and managed to kill both armed suspects on the spot?

    Meanwhile, Geller gets the spotlight that she craves.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      May 5, 2015, 2:53 am

      @just

      Yeah, two guys in a car, with what kind of rifles, automatic, semiautomatic or what, rifles, pull up to a building, and exchange fire with a security guard firing a pistol–and bing, bang, the two guys are dead, the guard hit lightly in the ankle? Waiting for an interview with that guard, as to exactly what happened. Nobody with a cell phone camera around at the time?

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        May 5, 2015, 7:42 am

        Now I find out the two dead guys were wearing armor. That security guard nut have been Clint Eastwood.

    • Bornajoo
      Bornajoo
      May 5, 2015, 7:36 am

      Count me in on thinking the whole story is weird! Just doesn’t seem credible

  15. jayn0t
    jayn0t
    May 4, 2015, 11:03 pm

    “equivalent to normalizing David Duke”
    Mondoweiss once interviewed David Duke:
    http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/goldberg-presbyterian-divestment
    “and Nazis”
    No, Nazis are completely different, and completely irrelevant.
    “It is a sad measure of the amount of Islamophobia in our country that all these people are given a podium to hold forth.”
    No it isn’t, it’s a happy measure of the amount of freedom in our country.
    “We are not speaking here about the First Amendment”
    No, but you should be.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      May 5, 2015, 7:44 am

      The David Duke cootie is magical.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      May 5, 2015, 11:00 am

      “Mondoweiss once interviewed David Duke:”

      Gee, I clicked you link and didn’t see that. An “interview” ?

      • just
        just
        May 5, 2015, 11:06 am

        +1, Mooser!

      • Steve Grover
        Steve Grover
        May 5, 2015, 2:07 pm

        I don’t know about a Mondoweiss interview with Duke. However, many of the Mondoweiss fans have more in common with David Duke than Geller does. Heck, he wrote a thesis entitled “Zionism as a Form of Ethnic Supremacism”. That seems to be a very common belief here.
        Duke went to Iran as part of their Holocaust Denying conferences put on by the Government of Iran. Mondoweiss fans bend over backwards in support of the Iranian regime. They all are against Israel’s right to exist. JVP’s Brant Rosen thinks along those lines and so does his fellow Evanstonian Arthur Butz the Northwestern University Prof of Electrical Engineering who wrote the Holocaust denying “Hoax of the Century”

      • eljay
        eljay
        May 5, 2015, 2:31 pm

        || Steve Grover: … Heck, he wrote a thesis entitled “Zionism as a Form of Ethnic Supremacism”. That seems to be a very common belief here. ||

        No surprise there: Whether it’s ethnic or religion-based, Zio-supremacists make it very clear that Zionism is supremacism that favours Jews. (It certainly doesn’t favour Palestinians or other non-Jews.)

        || Mondoweiss fans bend over backwards in support of the Iranian regime. ||

        Hyperbole bordering on falsehood: Some might “bend over backwards in support of the Iranian regime”, but most (including me) don’t.

        || They all are against Israel’s right to exist. ||

        An intentional and outright lie: Many if not most people here on MW agree that Israel has a right to exist. Many if not most agree that supremacist “Jewish State” does not. And rightly so: No state has a right to exist as a supremacist state.

      • just
        just
        May 5, 2015, 2:55 pm

        Steve Grover~ you post ridiculous and patently false junk most of the time. You’ve outdone yourself with that particularly noxious post, especially this:

        “They all are against Israel’s right to exist.”

        Lies, lies and more lies. Cite it, prove it, or just go commiserate with your buddies.

      • Steve Grover
        Steve Grover
        May 5, 2015, 5:25 pm

        @eljay
        You used the term Zio-Supremacist once more. I guess I’m gonna have to have JNF plant another tree in your honor.

        @just,
        Are you saying that David Duke, Mondoweiss fans, Brant Rosen, Arthur Butz and the Iranian regime don’t say that Israel shouldn’t exist. If you are saying this let me recommend an Opthamologist to fix your eyes so you can read their stuff.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        May 5, 2015, 7:36 pm

        “Mondoweiss fans bend over backwards in support of the Iranian regime.”

        I support them when they do the right thing. I condemn them when they do the wrong thing. I take the same approach to the Australian regime.

        ” They all are against Israel’s right to exist. ”

        I may be a minority here, but I, for one, deny Israel has that right.

        Nor does New Zealand, East Germany, The Kingdom of Arles, Latvia, the Kingdom of Nanyue, The People’s Republic of China, the Duchy of Savoy, Belgium, the Majapahit Empire, or Chile.

        And certainly not Canada.

        States do not have a right to exist.

        They are arrangements of convenience (sometimes even for the convenience of their citizens) and, as such, come into and go out of existence according to the whims of the powers-that-be.

        “JVP’s Brant Rosen … so does his fellow Evanstonian Arthur Butz …”

        Guilt by association.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 5, 2015, 11:27 pm

        “+1 Mooser.”

        Citizen got it first, and perfect. The magical David Duke cootie! It’s so easy to catch.

        Hey, listen people, you’ve got to feel bad for “Grober”. Can you imagine what it feels like to be in a religion which has so many traitors, so many self-haters, so many mosers, people who need to be kicked out, (so there’s more Zion for “Grober”).

        And now the Jewish Forward is talking about “Orthodox money” and the Republican party! It’s no wonder “Grober” drinks.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 5, 2015, 11:55 pm

        “Heck, he wrote a thesis entitled “Zionism as a Form of Ethnic Supremacism”. That seems to be a very common belief here.”

        Wow, people get some wacky ideas, don’t they “Grubber”? How on earth could any get an idea like that? Doesn’t everybody know that Israel is a strict meritocracy, and absolutely fanatic about not identifying Israelis by religion or ethnicity. The very idea! These are the kind of people who think Israel is a “Jewish State”.
        That kind of discrimination is strictly forbidden by the Israeli Constitution.
        And didn’t Israel meet all the requirements of the Statehood arrangement with the UN? Oh well, people will think weird stuff. “Grumper” this is very disheartening, but I’ve heard there are people who have lived in Israel and gained the impression it was based on ethnic supremacy! You just can’t help some people.

      • eljay
        eljay
        May 6, 2015, 7:15 am

        || Steve Grover: @eljay You used the term Zio-Supremacist once more. ||

        I blame it on the Zio-supremacists.

        || I guess I’m gonna have to have JNF plant another tree in your honor. ||

        Make sure they plant it inside Israel’s (Partition) borders. Thanks.

      • Kris
        Kris
        May 6, 2015, 10:38 am

        Steve Grover, do you think that if David Duke or Netanyahu says many parents love their children, we should reject the assertion because they are racists?

        “Translated from Latin to English, “Ad Hominem” means “against the man” or “against the person.”

        “An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of “argument” has the following form:

        “Person A makes claim X.
        Person B makes an attack on person A.
        Therefore A’s claim is false.

        “The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

        “Example of Ad Hominem

        “Bill: “I believe that abortion is morally wrong.”
        Dave: “Of course you would say that, you’re a priest.”
        Bill: “What about the arguments I gave to support my position?”
        Dave: “Those don’t count. Like I said, you’re a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can’t believe what you say.”
        http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 6, 2015, 12:26 pm

        “Bill: “I believe that abortion is morally wrong.”

        Yes, many men say that. And even if I don’t necessarily agree with them, I can but admire their integrity. They mean what they say! Not one of them, not a single one, has ever gotten an abortion or terminated their pregnancy!

      • catalan
        catalan
        May 6, 2015, 12:46 pm

        “Not one of them, not a single one, has ever gotten an abortion or terminated their pregnancy!” – Mooser
        So droll. Then again, you have indicated you are not a kids person.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 6, 2015, 2:20 pm

        “So droll. Then again, you have indicated you are not a kids person.”

        Nonsense, I love children, if they are well-prepared.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 7, 2015, 4:33 pm

        “So droll. Then again, you have indicated you are not a kids person.”

        There’s a Yiddish expression for people who act like you, “catalan”. We call them “ah drip“.

      • jayn0t
        jayn0t
        May 10, 2015, 5:06 pm

        “As part of the research for this article, I contacted David Duke by phone.” – Phan Nguyen, http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/goldberg-presbyterian-divestment

  16. Neil Schipper
    Neil Schipper
    May 5, 2015, 6:11 am

    Pamela Geller, David Duke, James North and Philip Weiss have a lot in common.

    First comes the all-embracing ideology, then facts are found, others ignored, all in service of the ideology. And the world is no clearer for it.

    After years of tension, anti-American sentiment ebbs in Pakistan

    Anti-American sentiment appears to be going out of style.

    The shift has come as Pakistanis appear to be looking closer to home for the causes of — and answers to — the country’s woes, according to interviews with residents, analysts, and current and former diplomats.

    Those observers say the change is being driven by a Pakistani middle class that is now more supportive of American drone strikes — which have declined precipitously in recent years — particularly since a school massacre by the Taliban that killed about 150 students and teachers in December. And as conflict spreads in the Middle East, there is a growing recognition in Pakistan that sectarian violence in Muslim countries isn’t all driven by the United States. The Obama administration’s efforts to quietly rebuild relationships here are starting to have an effect, analysts say.

    You should stop treating every violent act by Islamists as a natural response to Imperialism. You should stop treating every fatuous, craven statement by Islamic apologists as worthy of respect.

    • Marnie
      Marnie
      May 5, 2015, 9:35 am

      You should be glad Annie’s on vacation.

      • just
        just
        May 5, 2015, 9:47 am

        +1, Marnie!

      • hjmetro
        hjmetro
        May 5, 2015, 3:31 pm

        Thanks for the info, Marnie; I was already waiting for her slashing my contribution, further down on this page ;)

    • May 9, 2015, 9:07 am

      “You should stop treating every violent act by Islamists as a natural response to Imperialism.”

      Replace Islamists with Israel and ” as natural response to Imperialism” with Israel defending itself and you may be on to something

      “You should stop treating every fatuous, craven statement by Islamic apologists as worthy of respect.”

      Too easy

  17. just
    just
    May 5, 2015, 8:15 am

    Professor Cole:

    “How Muslim-Americans can avoid being Trolled by Israel-Firsters: Look again at the Prophet’s example

    …A dispassionate survey of the early sources such as Ibn Hisham shows an attitude of calm and peaceful resignation by early Muslims to the denunciations of the polytheists, and a determination to simply wait out their antipathy. Only when Mecca violently attacked the Muslims, plotted Muhammad’s assassination, etc., did the latter turn to defensive violence, but that was not vigilanteism (as it would have been in Mecca) but rather an organized response of a city-state. Muslims in the West are in a position similar to that of Muslims in Mecca before the Hijra or migration, and would do well to consider how the earliest community dealt with Islamophobia in the first years of the religion. (The Dallas Muslim community, which is part of a local interfaith peace coalition, knew this well and stayed away from the Geller event). Despite all the questions that can be raised about early Muslim historical sources, the community preserved traditions showing tolerance, forbearance and steadfastness in the absence of violence toward them.

    This is the only way to avoid the Muslim-American community being trolled by extreme Zionists like Pamela Geller, who are attempting to deprive them of a public voice by painting them all as violent fanatics to whom no attention should be paid. In turn, this tactic is aimed at keeping Palestinians stateless and upholding the Apartheid situation in Israel/Palestine. After all, if Palestinians don’t have standing to complain about their statelessness on account of being beyond the pale, then no one need listen to them. Ironically, it is a supremacist vision of Israel that is the equivalent for Zionist extremists of caricaturing the prophet. That is why the Jewish Defense League targeted Rep. Darrell Issa, an Arab-American, for assassination, and why Baruch Goldstein shot up Palestinians in Hebron. Because the Zionist extremists understand that there are hot button issues like Israelolatry that can lead to violence from their community, they know exactly how to get the goat of extremists on the other side. In essence, this is a tango of sharpening contradictions.”

    More @ http://www.juancole.com/2015/05/americans-firsters-prophets.html

  18. eljay
    eljay
    May 5, 2015, 8:22 am

    nothing wrong with being pro-Israel.

    There is something wrong with being in favour of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state which:
    – refuses to halt its 60+ years, on-going and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction, torture and murder;
    – refuses to honour its obligations under international law;
    – refuses to accept responsibility and account ability for its past and on-going (war) crimes; and
    – refuses to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.

  19. Marnie
    Marnie
    May 5, 2015, 9:34 am

    That first amendment is sure overworked. I would think that it was never intended to be misused and abused as it has been. I hope with the attention that this media whore craves so badly that people will see her for exactly what she is, a hateful, screeching, antisemitic bitch.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      May 5, 2015, 9:59 am

      I think Geller thinks she’s Israel’s Ayn Rand; that view seems to be quite lucrative for her–she’s chock full of expensive botox

      • a blah chick
        a blah chick
        May 5, 2015, 10:16 am

        I believe she’s a fangirl, which is why I’ve nicknamed her Pammy-Shrugs

      • Boo
        Boo
        May 5, 2015, 1:29 pm

        “Fangirl” … is that a portmanteau word, from “fang” and “girl”? Concur.

    • jayn0t
      jayn0t
      May 10, 2015, 5:07 pm

      In other words, freedom of speech is only for people you agree with.

  20. Landie_C
    Landie_C
    May 5, 2015, 11:05 am

    Horowitz is now defending Geller in the comments section at The Forward with his disqus account dhorowitz10.

    • Landie_C
      Landie_C
      May 5, 2015, 12:18 pm

      Specifically, he questions the value of finding out who Geller’s big donors are.

      “And why is Geller’s funding important? After all she’s not Secretary of State accepting millions of dollars in gifts from foreign governments.”

      He then replies to another commenter:

      “Baloney. The article already portrays her as a fascist. The point of going after her donors is to intimidate them.”

      http://forward.com/news/307528/pamela-geller-strident-voice-sparks-debate-and-violence/

      • lysias
        lysias
        May 5, 2015, 12:28 pm

        And why should one not try to intimidate funders of fascists out of continuing to fund them?

      • jayn0t
        jayn0t
        May 10, 2015, 5:09 pm

        “Going after donors”. That’s what the lobby does all the time when it tries to influence the media, politicians and academia.

  21. German Lefty
    German Lefty
    May 5, 2015, 12:43 pm

    As an anti-Zionist atheist, I say this:
    Respecting the rights of Muslims – yes!
    Respecting the religion of Muslims – no!

    • hjmetro
      hjmetro
      May 5, 2015, 2:25 pm

      Yes!

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      May 5, 2015, 11:39 pm

      “As an anti-Zionist atheist, I say this:
      Respecting the rights of Muslims – yes!
      Respecting the religion of Muslims – no!”

      Lefty, if anybody, and I don’t care who it is, tries to forcibly convert you to Islam, you just give me a call, and I’ll be there to prevent it as quickly as possible!

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        May 6, 2015, 1:05 am

        Might I suggest, no buses. Only because they aren’t the quickest means of transport of course.

    • aiman
      aiman
      May 6, 2015, 5:17 am

      Fair enough. But interesting all the same that you choose to call yourself “German Lefty”. Aren’t you paying homage to the nation as a transcendent force. Likewise respecting the rights of Germans – yes! Respecting the ideology of the nation to which Germans belong – no! As an anthropologist once said:

      “Let me first of all address the question of transcendence. The irony, it seems to me, is that although self-styled atheists say they reject “transcendence,” they are in fact subject (often willingly subject) to transcendent forces. Such as the transcendence of the market, which is a crucial part of modern capitalist society. And the transcendence of the state–the political form in which everyone lives in our world and makes absolute demands on our loyalty as citizens. And then of course there is the transcendence of “free speech.” In liberal society we claim that it is sacred and therefore has an absolute character. But we know (or should know) that “free speech” inhabits a structured space: not only is “hate speech” legally forbidden in liberal societies, but there are also laws protecting the circulation of copyrighted material, and the reproduction of trademarks and patents without explicit permission. And of course government secrets and commercial secrets cannot be breached without incurring severe penalties, which is an aspect of the transcendence of the modern sovereign state. I have discussed this point elsewhere and argued that there is a crucial distinction in liberal societies between the circulation of representations that are regarded as property and those that are not. Claims to the absoluteness of “free speech” are not very persuasive in this context.

      “Another, problematic example of “non-religious” transcendence is of course “humanity” and the worship it requires. And very closely connected with it is the modern notion of (cultural and moral) progress, which is assumed to be an open-ended movement that transcends all particularities, and stands over and above particular improvements of some particular state of affairs, the righting of something that is evidently wrong. To reject the transcendent progress of humanity is not necessarily to accept the status quo for what it is. So I think the different forms of transcendence need to be critically examined.”

      http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/20768/do-muslims-belong-in-the-west-an-interview-with-ta

  22. Boo
    Boo
    May 5, 2015, 1:30 pm

    It’s so noble of Geller to metaphorically hide inside the MRAP and allow that minimum-wage security guard to take the bullet for her.

  23. hjmetro
    hjmetro
    May 5, 2015, 2:23 pm

    “The whole world knows how intolerant Islam is.” You don’t have to be a Tea Party afficionado, but can just be a European anti-zionist leftie and an active Dutch Geert Wilders opponent to see that it is simply a fact of life: Islam is the most intolerant among the monotheistic religions – which are intolerant by definition. You just have to be a non-religious person – which is quite a mainstream position in Europe. In my country there are more atheists than believers, and in all Northwestern EU countries being religious is a minority position.
    One of the harmful side effects of US world dominance is that American political correctness and sensitivity are also colonizing the world – and the left. What is the real meaning of freedom of expression if one cannot ridicule God, Jesus, Allah, and Muhamed anymore? I can understand that religion plays a different role in an immigrant society like the US than it does in ‘sedentary’ Europe, but please allow us to piss on religion and don’t be ‘sissies’, as Salman Rushdie called the writers critisizing the PEN Freedom of Speech award for Charlie Hebdo. America’s founding fathers fled religious persecution in Europe. Now don’t tell us that we cannot show a crucified Jesus singing in a movie, or a Muhamed cartoon with a turban bomb.

    • John O
      John O
      May 5, 2015, 3:06 pm

      “Now don’t tell us that we cannot show a crucified Jesus singing in a movie…”

      I presume you’re referring to “Life of Brian”. Jesus’s only representation in that film is as a distant figure giving the Sermon on the Mount (“Blessed are the cheesemakers?”) A bit more subtle and artistic than a turban bomb.

      • hjmetro
        hjmetro
        May 5, 2015, 3:42 pm

        It’s about the principle, not about subtlety; rough, blunt, stupid, folksy jokes are as worthy of defending as high-brow and elitist expressions. And talking about artistic: Kurt Westergaard, the guy who drew the Muhammed cartoon, is a renowned artist. What’s your point, John?

      • Don
        Don
        May 5, 2015, 6:45 pm

        To hjmetro…”it’s about the principal”.

        Is it really?

        I presume Julius Streicher is your intellectual hero? (see comment below)

        He was executed, simply for his cartoon depictions of Jews. By your own “principals”, the man was a martyr for free speech.

        I would find your views about Streicher most interesting.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        May 5, 2015, 8:42 pm

        ”it’s about the principal”

        In all fairness, Ms or Mr Hjmetro didn’t commit that “principal”, you did. This would be character assassination by misquoting.
        Besides, Streicher was not executed simply for publishing hooknosed caricatures of Jews but “persecution on political and racial grounds in connection with war crimes, as defined by the Charter, and constitutes a crime against humanity.” While Geller and Co. are replicating some of Streicher’s actions, they are not (yet) formulating the official doctrine of our aggression of people of Middle Eastern “extraction”. I doubt that with an official disapproval by the government they could be charged for participation in our war crimes.

      • hjmetro
        hjmetro
        May 5, 2015, 9:19 pm

        Can’t you see the difference between racial profiling ordinary People (i.c. Jews, but also Arabs, Indians,..) and ridiculing Icons of religious power (God, Jesus, Allah, Muhammed)? Then you are missing an essential element of the freedom of expression: blasphemy. Julius Streicher was not a blasphemist, he did not use his freedom of expression; he was hired by a criminal band to kill innocent people by pen.
        Satirists and blasphemists that I would refer to are free spirits, fierce critics of the worldly and religious powers that be. Like Kurt Westergaard, the (late) Charlie Hebdo crew – who were killed by muslim thugs – and other brave women and men. Artists who go against the combined rising tides of state authoritarianism and ‘cultural-religious’ (mainly muslim) attacks on liberal values. In this and other ways Europe and the USA are indeed different.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 6, 2015, 2:26 pm

        “Then you are missing an essential element of the freedom of expression: blasphemy.”

        It’s only “blasphemy” if you are doing it about your own religion, chump. Doing it about somebody else’s religion has another name.
        And if you are an atheist, you lose the privilege of blasphemy, that’s just the way it goes. I don’t think it’s a high price to pay, but I wouldn’t know.

        I like you “Lefty”. You are always showing me the ‘German left’ is not so gauche after all.

    • MRW
      MRW
      May 6, 2015, 6:45 am

      America’s founding fathers fled religious persecution in Europe.

      That’s a crock of shit. The Pilgrims were religious nut jobs who were thrown out of England for their whackjob behavior and and for disturbing society.

      The founding fathers, such as they were, showed up 150 years later. They were deists who had no use for organized religion and wanted to guard the new country against priestcraft control (BTW, Islam does not have a priestcraft or clergy).

      In fact, it was Thomas Jefferson who purchased a Qur’an 11 years before he wrote the Declaration of Independence.

      [He] sais “neither Pagan nor Mahamedan [Muslim] nor Jew ought to be excluded from the civil rights of the Commonwealth because of his religion.” —Thomas Jefferson, quoting John Locke, 1776

      Spellberg, Denise A. (2013-10-01). Thomas Jefferson’s Qur’an: Islam and the Founders (p. 3). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

      Oh, and this comment of yours?

      You don’t have to be a Tea Party afficionado, but can just be a European anti-zionist leftie and an active Dutch Geert Wilders opponent to see that it is simply a fact of life: Islam is the most intolerant among the monotheistic religions – which are intolerant by definition.

      You are uneducated. I suggest you read historian Denise A. Spellberg’s 2013 book: Thomas Jefferson’s Qur’an: Islam and the Founders (link). Because you’re just blowing smoke out your ass and all that hot air reeks.

      • hjmetro
        hjmetro
        May 6, 2015, 10:21 am

        @ MRW “Islam does not have a priestcraft or clergy” – Shi’a islam has.
        Your other comments are incorrect as well (Pilgrims, founding fathers, uneducated). I am a European, and as such live in different story lines.

      • hjmetro
        hjmetro
        May 6, 2015, 10:54 am

        @MRW “The Pilgrims were religious nut jobs who were thrown out of England for their whackjob behavior and and for disturbing society.” This is the kind of uninformed hate speech Pamela Geller and Geert Wilders are using when they talk about muslims.

      • MRW
        MRW
        May 6, 2015, 12:07 pm

        @hjmetro,

        @ MRW “Islam does not have a priestcraft or clergy” – Shi’a islam has.

        No, it doesn’t. Colonel Pat Lang, former director of the DIA among other significant posts, taught soldiers about Islam at the War College before they are deployed. You can download his presentation here.

        He notes

        Please take note that in Islam there is no institutional test of authenticity in
        religion. Islam has no central authority. Authenticity exists in the minds of a
        group of Muslims who follow a particular teaching.

        The Shi’a have Ayatollahs and others. They are scholars not clergy, more like teachers in a divinity school.

      • just
        just
        May 6, 2015, 12:15 pm

        Thanks, MRW.

        You’re doing a very fine job of the heavy lifting necessary to clear the falsehoods that are propagated by some.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 6, 2015, 12:33 pm

        “Please take note that in Islam there is no institutional test of authenticity in
        religion. Islam has no central authority. Authenticity exists in the minds of a
        group of Muslims who follow a particular teaching.”

        Wait a minute, there’s something familiar about that. No central authority? Authenticity residing in each group or sect, and no institutional test of authenticity?

        Gosh, that reminds me of another religion! I just know I’ve heard there’s another religion like that, but I just can’t think of it. Maybe commenters can help me out. What other religion is just like that? If only I could think of the name.

      • MRW
        MRW
        May 6, 2015, 12:38 pm

        @hjmetro,

        This is the kind of uninformed hate speech Pamela Geller and Geert Wilders are using when they talk about muslims.

        Oh, please.

        Boston Tour Guide: “Myth: Puritans Believed in Religious Tolerance”

        From the History News Network: Simon Worrall: The Fanatics Who Founded America.

        Google for the rest.

      • hjmetro
        hjmetro
        May 6, 2015, 12:51 pm

        @MRW “Oh, please.” Did I write anywhere that the Pilgrims were tolerant? Oh, please! They were as intolerant as muslims are, when their faith is at stake.

      • MRW
        MRW
        May 6, 2015, 1:07 pm

        The Garland TX Census numbers (link).

        Population 235,000? High-school educations? Why there and not Dallas?

      • MRW
        MRW
        May 6, 2015, 1:09 pm

        @Da Moose,

        I just know I’ve heard there’s another religion like that, but I just can’t think of it.

        Not among the Abrahamics. Only Islam. It’s you and the Book.

      • MRW
        MRW
        May 6, 2015, 1:55 pm

        @hjmetro,

        Did I write anywhere that the Pilgrims were tolerant? Oh, please! They were as intolerant as muslims are, when their faith is at stake.

        No they weren’t. You didn’t read the articles. The Pilgrims did not have one position for when their faith was ‘at stake’ and another for when it wasn’t.

        They were strict fanatics who judged most of the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church rituals and sacraments to be heretical. They got kicked out of England because of social and civil disobedience; they wanted to mold society into their idea of godliness. Some moved to the Netherlands but they couldn’t stand the permissiveness of Dutch society.

        So they came here. The myth was that they were persecuted and came here seeking freedom and liberty and all the simplistic jingoistic crap they are portrayed in Hollywood movies as having.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 6, 2015, 2:31 pm

        “America’s founding fathers fled religious persecution in Europe.”

        “The Pilgrims were religious nut jobs who were thrown out of England for their whackjob behavior and and for disturbing society.”

        Gee, I don’t see any contradiction. Why couldn’t they be both? They were energetic, determined people, for the most part.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 6, 2015, 5:27 pm

        “Not among the Abrahamics. Only Islam. It’s you and the Book.”

        As far as I know, Col. Lang’s description pretty much fits Judaism as it is in reality. Naturally, for obvious reasons (mostly Zionism) an awful lot of people are at pains to obfuscate those facts. But if I’m wrong, I need to know:

        What is the “institutional test of authenticity” in Judaism?

        What is Judaism’s “central authority.”

        And if authenticity doesn’t “exists in the minds of a
        group of” Jews “who follow a particular teaching.” but is determined by a central authority, what or who is that central religious authority?

        And please, MRW, I’d be the first person to say that I don’t know very much about my own religion, so I could easily be wrong. And as far as Col. Lang’s description of these things (hierarchy, authority, authenticity) in Islam, I couldn’t begin to have the knowledge to disagree nor would I. I am sure he is right.

        At any rate, it seems to me the below all the nonsense, Judaism is ‘organized’ pretty much like Islam is, as per Col. Lang’s description, and I think that’s a good thing!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 6, 2015, 5:40 pm

        “They are scholars not clergy, more like teachers in a divinity school.”

        Just like Rabbis! We lost our priests a while back, (if I remember what I surreptitiously wrote on my shirt cuffs to pass the Scripture Knowledge test)

      • gamal
        gamal
        May 9, 2015, 10:04 am

        “Wait a minute, there’s something familiar about that. No central authority? Authenticity residing in each group or sect, and no institutional test of authenticity?”

        Have you met the “Yahudi abangan” Herb Feith, who uses an Islamic model to express his freedom to do as he sees fit with his own mind and being. I haven’t checked with the relevant authorities if he is still “Jewish”, perhaps you could ask Jeff, when you have a moment.

        The only thing that keeps me within the faith is a paucity of prosthetic fore-skins.

        http://www.insideindonesia.org/a-syncretistic-jew

      • gamal
        gamal
        May 9, 2015, 10:53 am

        and something a little academic but as always Muslims manage to disappoint and are woefully ignorant and forgetful

        Beyond Orientalism

        Gauri Viswanathan: speaking of Amitav Ghosh in an Egyptian village

        ” The cultural and historical divisions are apparent even in the kinds of conflicts the narrator has with the Egyptian villagers:

        ‘The Imam and I had participated in our own final defeat, in the dissolution of the centuries of dialogue that had linked us: we had demonstrated the irreversible triumph of the language that has usurped all the others in which people once discussed their differences (236).’

        http://web.stanford.edu/group/SHR/5-1/text/viswanathan.html

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 11, 2015, 1:00 pm

        Thanks, “gamal”.

    • traintosiberia
      traintosiberia
      May 6, 2015, 9:51 am

      Sure. lets piss at all religions together . Let’s start with the foundation of the State of Israel and then move to the settlemement activities , the retrun of Palestinianas ,and bankrolling of the occupation projects by secular atheist Europe and by the religious devout of America.
      Lets not send busload of Bibles to ME from Jordan in future “Iraq” sorry “Iran ” war and ask Liberman or Netanhuu to shut up from using the word “Amalekite” to galvanize the warmongering Evangelcis or IDF or CUFI.

    • hjmetro
      hjmetro
      May 6, 2015, 4:47 pm

      @Mooser “It’s only “blasphemy” if you are doing it about your own religion” Acc. to the Oxford Dictionary and me it is: “The action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk”. In general.
      And atheists cannot be blasphemists? Okay, I concede this one. At least when I follow Dave Hitt: “We can, do, and will continue to point out the silliness and inconsistencies of religions and their gods, their religious leaders, and the believers who follow such nonsense. The targets of our tactics will scream and cry and whine and moan that we are blaspheming and from their ignorant point of view, we are. But here in the real world, blasphemy isn’t possible.”
      And you lecturing me about my Leftness? I know Americans know and do everything better than others, but I’m not shure whether that’s true for the Left, considering their results over time ;) I mean: why be so rude to question someone’s credentials when you don’t know heck about their background? I’m not even German.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 6, 2015, 9:45 pm

        “I’m not even German.”

        Certainly not!
        And certainly not gauche either! And anybody who says you are will have to talk to me about it.

    • Don
      Don
      May 8, 2015, 12:36 pm

      ” While Geller and Co. are replicating some of Streicher’s actions, they are not (yet) formulating the official doctrine of our aggression of people of Middle Eastern “extraction”.

      “I doubt that with an official disapproval by the government they could be charged for participation in our war crimes.”

      And I doubt that I even understand what you mean by this last statement. What American has ever been charged with War Crimes by…America?

  24. Don
    Don
    May 5, 2015, 6:36 pm

    “A lot of the coverage of the shootings at the Muhammad cartoon contest in Garland TX yesterday is treating Pamela Geller as some kind of free speech hero.”

    The ignorance of these media people is beyond comprehension. I wonder what they would have to say about Julius Streicher…

    “After the war, he was convicted of crimes against humanity and executed.[2]” And all he did was exercise his “free speech”.

    • lysias
      lysias
      May 5, 2015, 7:06 pm

      Well, a lot of people with hindsight were disturbed by the execution of Streicher, Telford Taylor of the Nuremberg prosecution team among them.

      Streicher was a miserable human being, but did he deserve death?

      • Don
        Don
        May 5, 2015, 8:16 pm

        Lysias, I don’t know if he deserved death. But assuming he did not deserve death, would any sane person suggest what he did was perfectly ok?

        My point is very simple. If what Geller is doing is ok, what Streicher did was ok. Defamation is defamation. Only the victims differ.

      • traintosiberia
        traintosiberia
        May 5, 2015, 9:19 pm

        Nuremberg trial passed death sentence to the guy who allowed a dyke to be broken in I think France inundating residential area and threatening people’s lives.

  25. traintosiberia
    traintosiberia
    May 5, 2015, 9:54 pm

    One of he problems that MSM doesn’t want to acknowledge is the reality is that though Pamela Geller is doing something that neither Neocons nor Cheney did It is still serving the same purpose of creating a permanent mind set of hatred that could be exploited anytime militarily abroad against Muslim.
    Racism in this country owed its existence to slave trade which became possible only when the marriage between economic opportunities and the ideas of racial superiority was established . Pamela Geller is trying to establish that moral ,cultural,and religious superiorities . Steve King had lent his hand already in support .
    Neocons inspired columnists are silent since the rhetorics keep the country distracted from Israel and Israeli run projects . Free Speech is the sacred cow . But it is a sick cow wandering on the streets with no real nourishment but getting dependent on the fake fodder of dangerous racial discriminatory languages

    • Walid
      Walid
      May 5, 2015, 10:38 pm

      Traintosiberia, Geller’s fanning of Islamophobia is nothing new, the Zionists have been at it for a long time but rather than getting directly implicated, they had been paying Arabs to do it for them and paying them handsomely. Brigitte Gabriel from Lebanon, Wafa Sultan from Syria, Walid Shoebat from Palestine, and Ayan Hirsi Ali from Somalia are active soldiers for Zionism. Geller is a relatively new addition to the team that now includes many Congressional reps. Geller is simply cashing in.

      • traintosiberia
        traintosiberia
        May 6, 2015, 7:23 am

        Pa mela Geller has definitively mainstreamed the islamophobia and no one comes close excepting in general the Fox crews . Tele Islamophobes on Fox isn’t thought that way simply for the fact that these helming anti Muslim gossips or marathon of diatribe have other jobs as well to perform ,wearing hats of anti Obama, anti Putin,anti Mexican,anti black,anti global warming – I can go on and on -Fox or WSJ are the worst among the media,but serves other purposes Pamela Geller has no other job description.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      May 6, 2015, 12:21 am

      “Racism in this country …”

      In Siberia?

    • MRW
      MRW
      May 6, 2015, 7:04 am

      When is an educated reporter–we can dream, can’t we?–working for the bigs going to make the connection between Muslims and Blacks? The original African slaves were Muslims, which was one reason why the Catholic Church (and Protestants) had no problem using them as slaves–they were exotic and looked crisp in white tunics–and the Amsterdam Jews had no problem running the Dutch slave trade to the New World starting around 1541.

      Today’s ugly Jews and Christian fundies are milking this subconscious memory, and they should be stopped. At least, exposed; it’s an extension of the Obama as Muslim meme. Israel is running its Ethiopian Jews out of Dodge as I write, but then they’re blunt, to use hjmetro’s term, about not liking the schwartzes even though they have true Jewish blood.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 6, 2015, 12:36 pm

        Today’s ugly Jews”

        Might be as bad as “The Ugly American”?

      • MRW
        MRW
        May 6, 2015, 12:48 pm

        Why did you leave out the equally ugly Christian Fundies? Americans all.

        Just read Justin Raimondo’s excellent Merchants of Hate on antiwar.com. These are The Ugly Americans at home, unlike the ones the term was invented for, and they are uglier. Raimondo says it better than I could.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        May 6, 2015, 2:37 pm

        “In the episode that lends the book its title, the “ugly American” is Homer Atkins, a plain and plain-spoken man, who has been sent by the U.S. government to advise the Southeast Asian country of Sarkhan on engineering projects. When Atkins finds badly misplaced priorities and bluntly challenges the entrenched interests, he lays bare a foreign policy gone dangerously wrong.”

        It’s just a funny thing. The “Ugly American” was the hero of the book of the same name.
        If I remember right, the book also mentions that “the pretty Americans” were not to be trusted.

  26. traintosiberia
    traintosiberia
    May 6, 2015, 7:59 am

    This is not about religion. This is abuse of religion,race,culture and of politics and of the interpretation of the freedom of speech , a practice that works by forcing,selectivity and exclusiveness by using the idea of public and private domain,gate keeping. limiting access,and fear mongering .
    Karl Marx understood this phenomena very well . His observation of the aimless,uncoordinated,angry responses to British oppression of Inidans that subsequently galvanized in mass rebellion was right on the money . It was not about religion .Hindus and Muslim were not rebelling against the forced practices of chewing on beef or bacon. The religion provided the flag of resistance against the East India company’s ruthless exploitation and dislocation of the communities. Charles Dickens failed to see that way His progressivism was limited to Brtish Christian and European in that order of importance .
    Texas or Hedbo incident is far removed from the actual theater where these “East India ” type of events are taking place . So an argument could be made : why here . But if some ideologues can think that he or she can emulate Boykin or some soldiers who were caught flushing Koran in toilet and in numerous acts motivated by angry anti Islamic attitudes ,by mainstreaming the same hatred and transplanting the same hatred here in US and Europe far removed from the actual battlefield ,then some lone fanatics,some deranged intellectually challenged ,some disconnected youth with decontextualized existence ,or some plain rogue double agents could engage in same kind of transport business .
    East India company should not have been asked by Dickens to understand the situation Neither should be Pamella by the mainstream.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      May 6, 2015, 9:49 pm

      “This is not about religion. This is abuse of religion,race,culture and of politics and of the interpretation of the freedom of speech , a practice that works by forcing,selectivity and exclusiveness by using the idea of public and private domain,gate keeping. limiting access,and fear mongering .”

      Bingo, bulls-eye, and nothing but net, all the way from downtown! Well said.

  27. traintosiberia
    traintosiberia
    May 6, 2015, 8:40 am

    Iran Holocaust Conference was superficially covered by various media but truth was hard to come by . It was ridiculed and ignored unless it could be used to poke Iran .

    ” “In Britain, Stephen Smith, chairman of the Holocaust memorial day trust, said the conference contrasted with a high awareness of the Holocaust among young Britons. “Three-quarters of young people know when the Holocaust took place and 84% have heard of Auschwitz. Knowledge is the first step to prevention. Denial is the first step to repetition,” he said. ” Guardian ( UK )

    Sure this is the real meat in the plate . That’s why denial of Palestininan suffering,denial of Zionist warmongering against Iraq and denial Zionist of abuse of the power within western political systems should be see n in the same frame of arguments – — it can repeat itself – look at Iran and look at periodic invasion of Gaza and Lebanon and Syria – one can see the danger of denial.But the Zionist won’t appreciate the repeating the same argument for the same problem if it were not seen as issue of any concerns by the Zionist.

    And I also will refer to this quote “”Today people who claim to be against Nazism have a record of colonialism and racism,” he said. “The objective for organising this conference is to create an atmosphere to raise various opinions about a historical issue. We are not seeking to deny or prove the Holocaust.”
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/dec/12/iran.israel
    Last quote was from the Foreign Minister of Iran.

  28. traintosiberia
    traintosiberia
    May 6, 2015, 1:54 pm

    Racial intolernace to Blacks didn’t come from one corner but from multiple sources- politics,churches,business communities,farmers,and from academic spaces and poisoned the minds .
    Islamophobia has got the same starts using same techniques both in the Europe and in the US.

  29. traintosiberia
    traintosiberia
    May 6, 2015, 1:57 pm

    Why can’t Muslims laugh at Mohammed? David Goldman in http://atimes.com/2015/05/why-cant-muslims-laugh-at-mohammed/

    Sure David Duke will apppreciate the fretworking of the same pattern over and over again in multiple platforms and by multiple actors .

  30. just
    just
    May 7, 2015, 12:04 pm

    “Four arrested in Germany over ‘plot against Muslims’

    German authorities have conducted raids across the country, seizing explosives and arresting four people accused of founding a right-wing group to attack mosques and housing for asylum seekers.
    Police arrested three men and a woman accused of leading the group during raids by some 250 investigators on homes in Saxony and four other states, the federal prosecutor’s office said in a statement.
    Prosecutors allege the four helped found the “Oldschool Society” (OSS) group and were planning to attack asylum-seeker housing, mosques and well-known members of the Islamic community in Germany.
    The four arrested, identified only as Andreas H, 56, Markus W, 39, Denise Vanessa G, 22, and Olaf O, 47, in line with German privacy laws, are being held on terrorism charges and are also accused of having procured explosives.”…..

    More @ http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/05/150506160932781.html

    (via Ali Abunimah)

    Waiting to see if it makes headlines the world over…

  31. just
    just
    May 8, 2015, 9:45 am

    This is more than a little bit ‘interesting’:

    “Free expression group PEN America gets sponsored by apartheid Israel

    iterature fans who respect Palestinian rights will have been disturbed to find Israel listed among sponsors of this week’s PEN World Voices festival in New York.

    The “embassy of Israel” was named on the festival’s sponsors page as a “patron” and also appears on an individual events page as a fully-fledged “sponsor.”…

    Charlie Hebdo award

    American PEN, a division of the international literature and freedom of expression organization, has recently attracted controversy over a gala dinner it held on Tuesday.

    Six “table hosts” for the dinner — renowned authors Peter Carey, Michael Ondaatje, Francine Prose, Teju Cole, Rachel Kushner and Taiye Selasi — all withdrew from their roles in protest at plans to award French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo with a special award.

    A further 200 of PEN American Center’s 4,000 members were also said to have signed an open letter stating that the award overstepped the line between “staunchly supporting expression that violates the acceptable, and enthusiastically rewarding such expression.” Those who signed include internationally famous authors such as Joyce Carol Oates and Junot Diaz.

    Peter Carey, in an email interview with The New York Times, condemned both the deadly attack on Charlie Hebdo in Paris earlier this year but also the agenda which the magazine itself espoused, saying; ”A hideous crime was committed, but was it a freedom-of-speech issue for PEN America to be self-righteous about? All this is complicated by PEN’s seeming blindness to the cultural arrogance of the French nation, which does not recognize its moral obligation to a large and disempowered segment of their population.”

    Director’s pro-Israel influence

    The Israeli sponsorship of the World Voices festival suggests views at PEN’s America Center which extend beyond a Western liberal reification of “freedom of speech” over basic values of responsibility and anti-racism.

    The association with Israel seems to stem from the appointment of Suzanne Nossel as the executive director of PEN American Center last year. Nossel had previously attracted controversy during her brief stint as head of Amnesty International’s US office. Before that, as her whitewashed biography on the PEN America website puts it, she worked for the US State Department and the US mission to the United Nations and served as a board member of Human Rights Watch. …

    She is said to have “resigned unceremoniously” after protests from Amnesty staff and donors about the organization’s support for the US invasion of Afghanistan during her leadership.

    It is therefore unsurprising that her switch to PEN American Center has also attracted severe condemnation. One PEN member, Chris Hedges, a veteran journalist, canceled his appearance at a PEN event and resigned from the organization with a letter which accused Nossel of failing to oppose Israeli abuses as well as torture and extra-judicial killing by the US and its allies. Going on to call Nossel “utterly unfit to lead any human rights organization,” Hedges said:

    This appointment makes a mockery of PEN as a human rights organization and belittles the values PEN purports to defend. I spent seven years in the Middle East, most of them as the Middle East bureau chief of The New York Times. The suffering of the Palestinians under Israeli occupation and the plight of those caught up in our imperial wars in countries such as Iraq are not abstractions to me… I hereby resign from PEN. I will wait until the organization returns to its original mandate to defend those who are persecuted, including those within the United States, before returning to the organization.

    Other critics have pointed out that, just as Amnesty’s failure to support US whistleblower Chelsea Manning while under Nossell’s control, so has PEN America on her watch.

    The PEN Charter affirms the necessity for freedom of expression and thought. But members also “pledge themselves to do their utmost to dispel race, class and national hatreds.”

    Under Nossel, it appears, PEN America sees Israel as a state to be defended despite its repression of Palestinian expression and rights, while those who confront the US government’s warmongering are met with silence and a cold shoulder.”

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/sarah-irving/free-expression-group-pen-america-gets-sponsored-apartheid-israel

    Kudos to Chris Hedges.

  32. just
    just
    May 10, 2015, 2:42 pm

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