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Goldberg predicts ‘civil war’ between American and Israeli Jews as Israel is ‘defined as an apartheid state’

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David Rothkopf of Foreign Policy has done a very interesting interview with Jeffrey Goldberg about Goldberg’s interview with President Obama about Israel/Jews 2 weeks ago. And if that sounds inside-Jewish-baseball, well it is. Which is one of the takeaways from the exchange.

Here is the main quote. Israel is destroying itself, Obama isn’t destroying it, Goldberg says:

I probably share a lot of [Obama’s] analysis of Israel’s core dilemmas. To put it crudely, the basic split on Obama is this: Is he destroying Israel, or is Israel destroying Israel? I go more with the latter than the former at the moment. If you believe the former, you despise him. If you believe the latter, you can’t quite believe that a) Israel’s government is carrying out policies that will eventually lead to the country’s dissolution, or wholesale isolation; and b) that more Israelis don’t understand that an African-American president who speaks feelingly about the moral necessity of Zionism is a friend, not a foe.

The idea that Obama might be destroying Israel! And Rothkopf doesn’t challenge him on that point.

There is a lot of Jewish narcissism in the interview. Like this part:

I’ve argued that Obama is in many ways the most Jewish president we’ve ever had. I don’t want to rehearse all of my proofs right now, but in essence, no president has been shaped to the degree that Obama has been shaped by exposure to Jewish mentors, Jewish teachers, Jewish fellow community-organizers, Jewish advisers, Jewish political supporters, Jewish writers, and Jewish thought. On the Jewish right, of course, Obama is thought of as something approaching an anti-Semite. He’s not, of course. What he is, is a philo-Semite. And this comes with its own set of problems and challenges. If you read between the lines, you’ll see that Obama is asking Israel (pleading with Israel, in fact) to be — not to put too fine a point on it — more Jewish, to live up to what he understands to be Jewish values. Obama’s impatience with Israel, and his dislike of Netanyahu, is rooted in the fact that he is a very specific kind of Jew – an intellectual, Upper West Side, social action-oriented, anguished-about-Israel liberal values Jew. This happens to be a common American Jewish archetype, more common, in fact, than the Sheldon Adelson archetype.

As a person who so closely identifies with this Jewish archetype, Obama sometimes forgets that he is not, in fact, Jewish. It is remarkable, the degree to which he holds Israel to standards he doesn’t apply to other American allies. Doing this isn’t particularly fair, but it is particularly Jewish. You and I both know the argument — the Jewish people didn’t wait 2,000 years for a country so that it could be better than Syria. Obama holds Israel to high standards in part because he’s learned from [those] Jews who hold Israel to hold standards.

That’s an absurd analysis. Obama came into office hammer-and-tongs on the Palestinian question not because he believes he’s Jewish or holds Israel to a higher standard, but because the settlements are illegal and the colonization project and special relationship are hurting the United States across the Middle East. It has nothing to do with Jewish values. Obama by inclination respects universal human rights; he gave his first interview to an Arab news organization and five months into his presidency spoke to an Arab audience about the “daily humiliations –large and small — that come with occupation.” He soon learned to shut up about that.

More happy horseshit about Jewish values:

What drives [Obama’s] passion is, as I’ve mentioned, a deep-seated belief that Israel should be better than it is.

My theory of the Netanyahu-Obama relationship is that Obama looks at Netanyahu and asks himself, “What kind of Jew is this?” He’s accustomed to liberal American Jews, the anguished, over-intellectual types. For his part, Netanyahu looks at Obama and see.… I don’t know. Eldridge Cleaver? Jimmy Carter? Is the belief that Israel should be better, and more refined, than its enemies, given that it is a Jewish state, unrealistic and unfair, given both the neighborhood and the nature of Israel’s enemies? Maybe. Is it also a feeling that many American Jews share? Yes. You can see that in the reaction to his [May 22] speech at [Washington synagogue] Adas Israel, which, by the way, is not some Birkenstock-y, Woodstock-y counterculture outpost. Adas Israel is mainstream and establishment, and some of the president’s biggest applause lines last Friday had to do with the necessity of a two-state solution and the moral case for Palestinian independence.

Good; let’s stop talking about the president’s mind and talk about Jews. Goldberg is spot-on here:

If current trends continue, a civil war is coming. It will be a very civil, civil war, but it will be a civil war nonetheless, between an American Jewry that has been nurtured on the values of the Civil Rights Movement, and an Israeli Jewry that has been taught, harshly, that the Middle East is not a place of mercy. Many American Jews are probably too rosy in their understanding of the possibilities of peace and reconciliation; many Israelis, particularly those who believe that the settlement project on the West Bank is a moral success, rather than a disaster of epic proportions, don’t understand that their country is slowly growing unrecognizable to American Jews, and to would-be members of the tribe — including the one in the Oval Office — as well.

But why will it be a civil civil war? I am afraid it won’t be. The precedents in history for this sort of untethering of interests– Algeria, Ireland, the Civil War — suggest violent not peaceful reactions. Look what the revisionist Zionists did to Arlosoroff when he was going off the reservation. Look what happened to Rabin.

Goldberg says the two-state solution can be achieved, with Israel setting the terms; but Israel is getting the reputation as an apartheid state.

What Obama sees — and what frustrates him (and a large number of American Jews) — is an Israel that is burying its head in the sand. There is still time to arrange the birth of a Palestinian state in an orderly fashion, in a manner that allows the Israelis to set many of the security terms of this new state’s creation. No good can come of this continued waiting. There is a tipping point ahead — one day soon, Israel will be defined across most of the world as an apartheid state, unless it steps away from the status quo. So, to the question of whether Obama doesn’t understand Middle East reality, I would answer that, in the case of Israel, he is grappling with some of the core challenges to its existence, challenges Netanyahu is avoiding.

That’s an excellent answer. And by the way, Israel has done nothing to step away from the status quo. It is only solidifying the status quo.

The answer is of a piece with Goldberg’s observation four years ago, that the left doesn’t have an idealistic view of Israel, and the left is winning.

Now the right, of course, believes that settlements are an expression, not a corruption, of [the righteous Zionist] cause. The left, on the other hand, believes that settlements are a manifestation of Zionism’s true nature. I disagree with that argument strenuously. But I will say this, though: The left position on this question has the wind at its back.

Again, that was four years ago. A lifetime in politics. The left has taken giant steps since then, tragically aided by another Israeli massacre in Gaza, which goes unmentioned in the Rothkopf Goldberg exchange.

I wish Rothkopf had been more assertive, had expressed his view that Zionism is “exactly the wrong” response to history. Is he also destroying Israel? But Rothkopf seems a bit overawed by the glib Goldberg (who moved to Israel because of his fears of anti-semitism in the U.S. and served in the Israeli army before coming back here to prosecute his career).

Lastly, Goldberg should pay for this comment. He says “we tend to forget” that Americans die in wars for which “we” craft the policy.

Something that is not happening in the Middle East right now is that American soldiers are not dying. For the American people, this is of paramount importance, and this should count as an important Obama success. We tend to forget about this one when we discuss American policy in the Middle East. The American voter seems to be exhausted by the Middle East and its unsolvable problems, and Obama is under virtually no pressure domestically to dive further in to the mess.

I never forget this, and neither do people I know. And a lot of Iraqis died too, in the war that Goldberg pushed.

 

Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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99 Responses

  1. amigo on June 2, 2015, 12:56 pm

    Off Topic , Blatter just resigned reported by Al Jazeera. 17,30 gmt.

    Proposed new election next march.

  2. Citizen on June 2, 2015, 1:04 pm

    “And a lot of Iraqis died too, in the war that Goldberg pushed. ” Yeah, a whole lot. Not that it matters; but the death & maiming of US soldiers? At some point, don’t he Zionists realize there will be an accounting for this?
    A civil, civil war between Americans Jews & Israeli Jews? Yes, but aren’t there more American Jews fighting in the IDF than in US military? And just look at what Sheldon Adelson said: he wished he had worn an IDF uniform, not a US military unform–this from the #1 individual political donor to candidates for the next POTUS. Fool me once, fool me twice; I don’t see a good ending to this stuff.

  3. pabelmont on June 2, 2015, 1:07 pm

    “Look what the revisionist Zionists did to Arlosoroff when he was going off the reservation. Look what happened to Rabin”. Sure: read the Einstein Letter to NYT of December 4, 1948 decrying Menachem Begin

    Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

    And look what happened to JFK (not necessarily Israel-related).

    • tony greenstein on June 3, 2015, 8:50 am

      I’m not sure what you are saying. Arlossorof was assasinated in June 1933 He was up to his eyes in negotiations for Havarah, the Nazi-Zionist trade agreement that would destroy the International Boycott of Nazi Germany, which was the main hope of those who sought to remove Hitler from power while he was weak. So no tears for him.

  4. pabelmont on June 2, 2015, 1:15 pm

    “Now the right, of course, believes that settlements are an expression, not a corruption, of [the righteous Zionist] cause. The left, on the other hand, believes that settlements are a manifestation of Zionism’s true nature. I disagree with that argument strenuously. But I will say this, though: The left position on this question has the wind at its back.”

    This paragraph may contain a “typo” or a “think-o”. Both right and left are said to believe the same thing — that settlements are part and parcel of Zionism, not a corruption. I agree. Zionism was a corruption of human rights from day-1. But, in that case, why “distinguish” between right and left on this point?

  5. Donald on June 2, 2015, 1:20 pm

    I think you are giving Obama too much credit–he willingly uses the same language Goldberg does. And he has always stayed well inside the liberal Zionist comfort zone.

    • Kay24 on June 2, 2015, 1:29 pm

      I agree that Obama has always supported Israel. The moment Israel starts the massacre in Gaza, Obama can be seen saying that he gives it unwavering support, justifies their violence, and hands them more ammunition. Shame on him.

      • Krauss on June 2, 2015, 4:57 pm

        Obama is a whimp and a coward, but I don’t think he cares about Israel. He does care, however, about his post-presidential speaking tour and he can’t go after Zionism and expect it to be lucrative.

        That being said, I think Goldberg’s obsession with Obama as the “Jewish president” shows correctly what Phil describes as narcissism. It also shows the moral bankruptcy of a guy who claims to be a liberal but supports Apartheid. Goldberg will pay for that, just like he will increasingly pay for Iraq.

        Also, Goldberg, who is “we” you speak of? Jewish neocons like yourself(exist in both parties, just look at Saban).

        Rothkopf shows in the interview that despite the noises he made previously he is still very tribal and will likely crawl back to the cross(if you’ll excuse the religious transgression), just like the NYT has done recently.

        His bizarre and desperate attempt to smear the UK-US special relationship, so as to make Israel’s and America’s increasing isolation from each other less extreme, was a case in point. He can’t stand it that Israel isn’t really that popular among liberals anymore and it isn’t exactly going in his favored direction either.

        Some day people will write about the extraordinary, massive support that Jewish apartheid received within the American media. It’ll probably be written be a Jewish author, simply because you have to make so many statements – even if factually correct – as to land on the clownish Simon Weisenthal Center “top 10 anti-Semites” list for a life time.

        But that book will be written simply because people will have to start understanding the essential role of Jewish sociology – that this interview is overflowing with – and how it pushed unconditional support for Israel, and yes wars in the Middle-East, too. Because does anyone seriously think that Goldberg wasn’t thinking a lot about Israel when he pushed for Iraq? Or other Jewish neocons – dems or republicans – for that matter, too.

        This is what Goldberg alludes to when he speaks of “we”. He knows he and his friend Rothkopf et al are in deep shit over Iraq and as time goes on more thoughtful books will be written about it, possibly in conjuction with how America stayed so slavishly loyal to a state that took billions and spat it in the face all the time, and who enforced that situation for decade after decade.

        If Goldberg/Rothkopf fear when the climate of such books come; they should. For it will be brutal to both of them, and it’s coming. (And they both deserve it, and they know it)

    • Kay24 on June 3, 2015, 6:25 am

      Just now on Morning Joe they mentioned that Obama is considering allowing the UN to vote for Palestinian Statehood. Joe of course tried to please his zio masters at MSNBC by saying the Israelis must fear the attacks from the Palestinians. NO mention of maybe a brutal occupation can result in any such attacks. Mika was silent on that and did not speak the truth. Unbiased eh?

      • Kay24 on June 3, 2015, 6:40 am

        LA Times also has an article about Obama considering allowing the UN to vote for a Palestinian state. It somehow makes me think this may be yet another eye wash. Perhaps they have already pressurized nations how to vote, the usual twisting of arms, threats etc. and know this will not pass. I hope I am wrong.

        http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-obama-israel-palestinians-20150602-story.html

      • Boomer on June 3, 2015, 9:25 am

        Kay24, re Obama allowing the UN to vote for Palestinian statehood.

        Thanks for the link. Obama has made this kind of comment several times lately. I suspect that there is some backroom discussion going on about what such a resolution will say. At times in the past, potentially helpful resolutions have been presented . . . and blocked by the U.S. despite the fact that the draft was consistent with our supposed position. I’m not optimistic that any resolution Obama “allows” will be intended to do much for the Palestinians.

        Rather, I fear, it may be designed to affirm the status quo, while letting the liberal Zionists who have enabled the dispossession and oppression of generations of Palestinians to wash their hands of the matter, even to say proudly, “how wonderful we are.” Will the Palestinians get a few “Vichy Bantustans” as someone here put it recently? Perhaps they will be allowed to have their “flag, anthem, and administration,” as Mr. Netanyahu has said. But perhaps not their water, freedom, independence and dignity, to say nothing of their property. Perhaps Obama will get another Nobel Peace Prize.

        We can hope for the best, but given the reality so well described by this site, it may be best to hedge one’s bets.

      • Kay24 on June 3, 2015, 9:58 am

        Boomer, you are right. I guess history has shown this is much ado about nothing. As you say, they may already know which way the wind will blow, and the US and Israel will look like “concerned” nations who did all they could for those poor Palestinians. Makes me want to scream!

  6. JLewisDickerson on June 2, 2015, 1:26 pm

    RE: “Look what the revisionist Zionists did to Arlosoroff when he was going off the reservation.” ~ Weiss

    Assassination of Haim Arlosoroff – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Haim_Arlosoroff

    The murder of Chaim Arlosoroff
    The mystery of who assassinated this pre-state leader of the Zionist movement remains unresolved.
    By David B. Green | Haaretz | June 16, 2013
    LINK – http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/this-day-in-jewish-history/.premium-1.530046

  7. Kris on June 2, 2015, 1:57 pm

    Philip Weiss: “Obama by inclination respects universal human rights…” Are you kidding? Because he gives nice speeches?

    Talk is cheap, and Obama’s actions tell a very different story: Indefinite detention, extrajudicial assassinations, most secretive administration ever, devastating trade treaties that the public is not allowed to read, support for Israel no matter what… I could go on.

    As someone once said, Obama should have been “National Toastmaster,” not president.

    • eljay on June 2, 2015, 2:09 pm

      Obama by inclination respects universal human rights …

      Barry O. by inclination talks about universal human rights and selectively violates – and helps others violate – them.

  8. joemowrey on June 2, 2015, 2:33 pm

    Thanks to Kris and eljay for pointing it out. But I have to add my observation just to be sure no one misses it.

    “Obama by inclination respects universal human rights.”

    Seriously? The man who sits in the oval office every Tuesday and signs death warrants to be implemented by the Drone assassination squad? Phil does a lot of thoughtful and careful analysis, then he comes off with a zinger like this. Obama is a war criminal and a mass murderer. Human rights mean absolutely nothing to this sociopath.

  9. WH on June 2, 2015, 2:56 pm

    “There is still time to arrange the birth of a Palestinian state in an orderly fashion, in a manner that allows the Israelis to set many of the security terms of this new state’s creation”

    In the same breath as proposing a Palestinian state, he sums up why that idea is doomed from the start – because it will just be a vassal to Israel, the same as now just with a nominally different status. I wish he had been asked to unpack just what he believes Palestinian independence would entail.

  10. Keith on June 2, 2015, 4:11 pm

    PHIL- “That’s an absurd analysis.”

    Of course it is.

    PHIL- “Obama by inclination respects universal human rights….”

    That is an absurd comment. Apparently, you live in some sort of elite liberal bubble where the empirical record is totally ignored. This President’s administration has been the greatest threat to world peace and the 99% we have yet seen, and he has 2 more years to do additional harm. As bad as the first 6 years were, I predict that these last 2 will be even worse. Much worse.

    • pabelmont on June 2, 2015, 6:45 pm

      And look at him pushing for the corporate state, that is, in this case, Shell exploration for oil in the Arctic, and a BIG PUSH for the investor protection / surrender of national sovereignty law (treaty) TPP misleadingly called “free trade agreement” but some of whose terms have not been disclosed to Congress or anyone else (save the corporate sponsors one imagines).

      Not clearly anti-human-rights but clearly anti-democracy, anti-jobs, anti-environment, etc.

      • MRW on June 2, 2015, 10:46 pm

        @pabelmont June 2, 2015, 6:45 pm

        And look at him pushing for the corporate state, that is, in this case, Shell exploration for oil in the Arctic

        That’s not what he’s doing. Take a look at a map of Alaska and look where the Chukchi Sea is. That’s where Shell is drilling.

        Shell isn’t exploring. Everyone knows that oil is there, but the fields were capped back in 1976—there are HUGE fields in the Arctic Ocean–because the US national security team decided to reserve US supply and exhaust the rest of the world’s oil first. You can’t drill a well in this country without CIA approval.

        TO NOTE:
        As a result of going off the gold standard internationally on August 15, 1971, and the fact that we became the reserve currency, they discovered the cost of a barrel of foreign oil for the US military was a keystroke, or if we were paying in actual physical dollars, the price of printing them, which then was around $0.06 per physical bill regardless of denomination. It was why Henry Kissinger promised the Saudis in 1975 that the US would keep the price of oil high if they denominated their oil in USD. So for decades the Saudis parked their USD in treasury securities in their savings account at the Fed, which cemented our reserve currency status and caused other countries to want to sell us things so they could get the USD to buy fuel.

        This plan was created after the 1973 oil embargo when the US military worldwide was left with only a maximum of two days of fuel for operating ships and planes, running supply lines, feeding the troops, gassing the trucks, and heating and cooling housing. The US military freaked.

        In other words, Oil became National Security Item #1 for the US federal government, and has been ever since. I got this directly from James Schlesinger, Secretary of Defense at the time the decision was made.

        The 1972/73 Prudhoe Bay exploration off the NE side of the top of Alaska was approved to prevent the USSR using their gains in slant-drilling.

        Obama’s recent approval has to do with preventing Putin from draining the oil in the Chukchi Sea, 45 miles or less from Russia. Russia is building pipelines and refineries to its far eastern border to supply China, Japan, and the Koreas. Maybe that’s what got Obama spooked.

        This is a 100% military/national security operation.

      • Keith on June 2, 2015, 10:58 pm

        PABELMONT- “Not clearly anti-human-rights….”

        If Obama’s support for neoliberalism isn’t anti-human rights, what is? Throw in unprecedented prosecution of whistleblowers, drone assassinations and support for Ukrainian neo-Nazis and ISIS. These are depressing times! The only silver lining is the potential for a golden age of gallows humor! Ugh.

  11. Krauss on June 2, 2015, 5:04 pm
  12. Bornajoo on June 2, 2015, 5:20 pm

    “This President’s administration has been the greatest threat to world peace and the 99% we have yet seen, and he has 2 more years to do additional harm. As bad as the first 6 years were, I predict that these last 2 will be even worse. Much worse.”

    If we look at the facts on the ground in Libya, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Ukraine, etc I’m afraid that I have to agree with Kieth’s comment

    As for the predicted American-Israel zionist civil war, the quicker it starts the better!

    • Mooser on June 2, 2015, 6:07 pm

      I don’t think it will be a war, more like a divorce.

      • Boomer on June 2, 2015, 9:37 pm

        Whatever you call it, “civil war,” “divorce,” what is needed is A Clean Break.

      • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 11:42 am

        “Whatever you call it, “civil war,” “divorce,” what is needed is A Clean Break.”

        Nope, not even a divorce, as we have no contractual agreement with Zionism. For the huge majority of American Jews, Zionism is no more than a fashion.

      • philweiss on June 3, 2015, 11:58 am

        I like the fashion comment, Mooser; and I think the next couple years are going to make you look very wise

      • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 12:27 pm

        “and I think the next couple years are going to make you look very wise “

        Holy Crap, you are an optimist, Phil! I feel it is only fair to warn you that the preceding 62 years have consistently made me look stupid, but man, I appreciate the positive thoughts!

      • Boomer on June 3, 2015, 4:36 pm

        re Mooser’s “Nope, not even a divorce, as we have no contractual agreement with Zionism. For the huge majority of American Jews, Zionism is no more than a fashion.”

        “Divorce” was your term, Mooser, but if you now don’t like it, that’s okay with me. (Though I will note that marriages in this country are usually founded on the basis of emotional bonds. The contractual part comes later. Ending a marriage is generally more a matter of emotion than contract too, though of course the lawyers will have their say (and pay).

        Zionism too, it would seem, involves an emotional bond. So I think your original analogy was apt. If you and Phil are suggesting that American Jews will soon cast off Zionism as Anna Wintour sheds last season’s frock, well, I’ll cheer for that development. Though the fashion for Zionism has lasted longer than most fashions, and had more serious consequences. Some might say tragic consequences.

      • pabelmont on June 3, 2015, 6:51 pm

        Mooser: If there is a divorce, or a clean break, or a civil war, or any thing else like these, many here will celebrate. And the fashionistas will celebrate that “Women in Black are the new black”.

      • Mooser on June 5, 2015, 1:30 pm

        “Divorce” was your term, Mooser, but if you now don’t like it, that’s okay with me.”

        That’s exactly what I mean! “Wise”? I doubt it. I can’t even be consistent!

  13. hophmi on June 2, 2015, 5:20 pm

    Like many, Phil, you are incapable of seeing anything in any other way but your own.

    • Donald on June 2, 2015, 8:16 pm

      Dumb comment. It’s not hard to see things Goldberg’s way–that doesn’t mean one has to agree with him.

      • hophmi on June 3, 2015, 11:03 am

        Hardly. Obama has admitted that he holds Israel to a higher standard than other countries because Israel is a democracy. Phil is free to disagree with Obama’s policies, but he’s not free to simply dismiss Obama’s statements and to substitute his own reasons for Obama’s viewpoint because he thinks that there is no such thing as Jewish values.

      • philweiss on June 3, 2015, 11:56 am

        Thanks Donald, also it is the responsibility of a writer to try and say what she or he sees and thinks. That’s the goal of independent inquiry. Then let the readers figure out what they think is true and reasonable

    • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 11:50 am

      “Like many, Phil, you are incapable of seeing anything in any other way but your own.”

      You tell ’em, Hophmi! And now, let’s give that moser Weiss the devastating analysis:

      “This analysis is nothing new. It is typical of Phil’s writing, which suggests, as it always does, the Phil has internalized anti-Jewish hatred, and like those secularist Jews in Europe who looked down upon their brethren or converted to Christianity to escape their Judaism, Phil adopts the classic tropes of the self-hater.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/hophmi?keyword=fall+away#sthash.mW8mkqt0.dpuf

      Okay, Hophmi, now, let’s twist the izmel and give ’em the ‘Ms. Hophmi regrets’ part:

      “Self-hatred is a disease. It is a sad disease borne of many generations of persecution, but it is a disease. And Phil is afflicted with it, as many Jews have been in the past. And it is usually the self-haters who cause the worst damage to the Jewish community, precisely because of how small it is.

      American Jewry, and the American-Israel relationship will survive the Phils of this world. American Jews, long a positive force in American society, will continue to be, far into the future, and Israel will endure, far into the future. The Phils will fall away, as they always do.”
      – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/hophmi?keyword=fall+away#sthash.mW8mkqt0.dpuf “Hophmi” (and there’s plenty more where this crap came from, his archive)

      Yup, I hear Phil had to be retrained from auto-defenestrating hisself from the Penthouse Suite at Mondo Tower #2 when he read that! Hard-hitting stuff.

      • pabelmont on June 3, 2015, 6:59 pm

        Mooser: Did you know (and does Hophmi know?) that people with cancer often submit themselves to surgery because they are self-hating to the extent that they hate part of themselves which has become unwelcome and (for that matter) harmful?

        If someone has been brought up to believe that he/she is part of a Jewish community AND that he/she owes loyalty to that community no matter what AND that such loyalty requires (these days) loyalty to right-wing-Israel (gasp) — and that person comes to recognize that that loyalty requirement is akin to a cancer and must be cut out, even if he/she would prefer to remain part of that Jewish community — well, then, cut out that cancerous part of the self.

        But this is not a hatred of the whole self, only of part, and only of a virulent mutative part.

        IMO.

      • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 11:00 pm

        “pablemont’ I’m not sure I can concur. Hophmi says his self-hatred analysis is “supported by easily accessible sociological data!” (Yes, that is an in-context quote!)

  14. gingershot on June 2, 2015, 5:37 pm

    ‘The US Pivot on Israel and the Israeli Lobby/Jewish Lobby in the US’
    …………………….‘The Reset of US-Israeli Relations’

    WHEN: June 10th, Wed evening, 6:00 – 7:00pm
    WHERE: Classroom 214, West Wing, Santa Fe Community College,
    WHO: Dr Lance Dale …… Call [email protected] 505-428-1000 to find classroom

    A talk providing description and context of 2 root strategic US policy resets on Israel, 3 advancing and unstopped existential crises for Israel – as well at the resulting fresh conversations, vantage points, and facts on the ground arising therefrom

    US Strategic Pivots:

    The Pivot on Israel’s strategy on Iran
    The Pivot on Israel’s strategy on Palestine

    3 Advancing Israeli ‘existential crises’:

    The 3 dispositive and concurrent existential crises seen as such by Israel itself:

    Crisis #1: The Iran Nuclear Deal: signed sealed and delivered June 30
    Crisis #2: Successfully advancing Palestinian case at the ICC
    Crisis #3: Catastrophic reversal of US diplomatic cover at UN/international forums

    – ‘Concurrency and synergy of crises and Strategic Collapse of Israeli Apartheid/Strategic Collapse of the Israeli Lobby’

    American Political Consequences and Resets:

    Battle Royale – Obama’s Legacy vs Hillary’s Presidency
    Sheldon Adelson’s ‘Chinese Mafia links’ US Court Case
    ‘The Israel Lobby of Post-Apartheid What*?’ *1P1V1S
    ‘CHECKMATE: Queen Hillary on an AIPAC Horse’

    ==========

    Goals: General familiarity with current US and Israeli policy position and state of play amidst rapidly evolving events and importance of consumption of Israeli media to understanding above

  15. JWalters on June 2, 2015, 6:03 pm

    I agree with Phil that Obama’s focus is on universal human rights more than Jewish culture. He is particularly unsympathetic to Israeli claims that Jews have a holy right to slaughter Palestinians and steal their land. These are clear implications in many of his statements.

    But if Obama were to openly condemn Israel’s crimes he would be quickly crucified by the Israeli-controlled American media and political establishment. Hence his delicate efforts to simultaneously reassure Jews of their physical security while pointing out the need for equal Palestinian rights (in some way). He also consistently focuses on the “settlements” as a problem, which are the central ongoing manifestation of Israel’s crimes. He is trying to get the American Jewish community to see the immorality of Israel’s actions in a way they can relate to, and without freaking them out.

    I agree with Goldberg that holding back the Israeli-American war machine from another Middle East ground invasion is “an important Obama success”. However, this may have required acquiescing on the more limited operations of drone strikes. It seems to me extremely unlikely that he comes to meetings with lists of people he wants killed by drones. More likely to me is that he looks for people to take off the list, as Abraham Lincoln looked over the lists of condemned Union deserters for those he could pardon from hanging.

    I suspect Obama is working behind the scenes, as he did on DADT. When the change comes, it will come on many fronts and he will play his role decisively. Netanyahu knows this, and it’s why he despises him.

    • Kathleen on June 3, 2015, 12:30 am

      Interesting take. So what would you say about Goldberg’s need to define Obama as part of the “tribe”

      • RobertHenryEller on June 3, 2015, 4:18 am

        Goldberg’s need to define Obama as part of the “tribe” is simply a feeble attempt by Goldberg to suck up. I’d bet Goldberg has literally tried this to Obama’s face. I’d also bet Obama gave Goldberg a polite smile, even as he knew he was being stroked and sucked up to. Goldberg does not seem to have the same ability to recognize when Obama is stroking Goldberg.

  16. Stephen Shenfield on June 2, 2015, 6:42 pm

    Obama is a consummate politician. That means he assumes many different “identities” depending on the audience he is aiming at. None of them are authentic. At the core is — nothing, a void.

    Within that context I can’t help admiring the skill with which he projects his “liberal Jewish” identity. When I listened to a message of greetings he broadcast on the High Holidays I was astonished. He talked about the significance of the holy days in a style that would have done a rabbi proud, not forgetting to refer to “repairing the world” (tikkun olam). I can see what those who call him the first Jewish president have in mind.

  17. Kris on June 2, 2015, 6:57 pm

    Phil, I’m still shaking my head about your writing “Obama by inclination respects universal human rights…” Even if you don’t think about the extrajudicial assassinations, etc., what about Obama’s big push for fast-tracking the death-to-poor-people-and-democracy “trade” treaty TPP?

    The Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) treaty, which corporations but not the public have been allowed to read, promises to be a death-dealer to food, water, health, and life: “Food, Water, Health, Life: UN Experts Warn of Threats Posed by Secret ‘Trade’ Deals”
    http://commondreams.org/news/2015/06/02/food-water-health-life-un-experts-warn-threats-posed-secret-trade-deals

    From the article:

    Echoing the protests of civil society organizations and social movements around the world, a panel of United Nations experts on Tuesday issued a stark warning about the threats that secret international “trade” agreements such as the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) pose to the most fundamental human rights.

    “Our concerns relate to the rights to life, food, water and sanitation, health, housing, education, science and culture, improved labor standards, an independent judiciary, a clean environment and the right not to be subjected to forced resettlement,” reads the statement, whose ten signatories include Ms. Catalina Devandas Aguilar, Special Rapporteur on the rights of person with disabilities and Ms. Victoria Lucia Tauli-Corpuz, Special Rapporteur on the rights of Indigenous peoples.

    In particular, the officials raise the alarm about the “investor-state dispute settlement” systems that have become the bedrock of so-called “free trade deals,” included in 3,000 agreements world-wide, according to the count of The New York Times. Popularly known as corporate tribunals, ISDS frameworks constitute a parallel legal system in which corporations can sue state governments for allegedly impeding profits and thereby supersede democratic laws and protections.

    The UN experts warn that “ISDS chapters are anomalous in that they provide protection for investors but not for States or for the population. They allow investors to sue States but not vice-versa.” Under this framework, states have faced penalties for “for adopting regulations, for example to protect the environment, food security, access to generic and essential medicines, and reduction of smoking, as required under the WHO Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, or raising the minimum wage,” resulting in a “chilling effect,” the officials warn.

    Notably, the experts declare that “All draft treaty texts should be published so that Parliamentarians and civil society have sufficient time to review them and to weigh the pros and cons in a democratic manner.”

    The recommendation comes amid heightened controversy over the administration of President Barack Obama’s refusal to publicly disclose basic information about three mammoth pacts currently under negotiation: the TPP, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership and the Trade in Services Agreement.

    Wikileaks is trying to raise $100,000 to offer as a reward to anyone who will reveal the full text of the TPP. http://commondreams.org/news/2015/06/02/wanted-dead-or-alive-100000-full-text-trans-pacific-partnership

    Do you know of anything other than speechifying that Obama has done to demonstrate respect for universal human rights?

    • Walid on June 2, 2015, 9:39 pm

      Kris, I don’t know if it can help get you the $100,000 Wiki prize, but you could look into what’s happening in Canada with ISDS, the TPP and similar national poison deals since it’s a fact that Canada’s dealings are a reflection of deals that the US is into. The exception is with the Patriot Act that’s about to fizzle out while Canada is rushing through its own version known as Bill C-51.

      Most European countries and especially the EU are preparing anti-ISDS legislation. Australia is already off the ISDS bus refusing to enter into any deal that is hinged on ISDS, Canada appears poised to not enter any deal on which it is not. NAFTA that is founded on an escape or exit clause of 6 months has already cost Canada $190 in ISDS claims. On the other hand, Canada is getting locked into one with China that to China’s advantage for the next 30 years. Current ISDS agreements that Canada has entered into are anticipated to increase Canada’s drug costs by $2 billion/year.

      Germany and France have expressed reservations about ISDS have been joined by Austria, Hungary, the Netherlands (where its parliament condemned ISDS). Something is definitely not kosher with the US and Canada rushing into these deals while others are refusing them.

      Good article on the subject from the Canadian site last week:

      http://rabble.ca/columnists/2015/05/harpers-trade-deals-are-poison-pill-democracy

      … and another on the EU set to vote on it in the coming weeks:

      http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/brent-patterson/2015/05/crucial-vote-on-isds-european-parliament-coming-within-weeks

  18. piotr on June 2, 2015, 7:16 pm

    “It is remarkable, the degree to which he holds Israel to standards he doesn’t apply to other American allies.”

    This is one of the central tenets of Hasbara, a belief shared by Zionist from most obtuse to most liberal. It is also a very intelligent ploy: deconstruction of that belief gives so much fun to a non-believer that it is really, really disruptive. Even so, I give it a try. First, to what degree “Israel is hold to something”? For example, holding Piotr to some standard basically means that if he does not fit to those standards he is fired. But Israel is a sovereign state, so the rules are different. One rule is for non-allies that cannot do much, then we proclaim that they are no good and impose severe sanctions. With luck, that leads to hyperinflation and total immiseration, like in Zimbabwe, or to somewhat stagnant economy like in Iran. Second rule is for non-allies that can do something. We impose sanctions which cause some degree of inconvenience, but we also foment insurgencies and support terrorist movements that they may find inconvenient. Third rule is for non-allies that we cannot do anything about, lest they stop buying our Treasury bonds, or leave us bereft of such life necessities like shoes, shirts, smart phones etc, surely we do nothing, BUT!! BUT!! we mention their misdeeds in yearly reports compiled by a dedicated federal agency.

    And what rules operate with allies? In good old days if an ally was committing a major atrocity, CIA would provide it with a check list, so they would also murder people on that list. Or provide training how to conduct torture and run death squads. However, occasionally those allies would be mentioned in yearly reports.

    So how does Israel fare in the comparison? Especially within “the region” our allies tend to be a wild and crazy bunch, where check and balances have the form of the nephews and uncles of the current absolute monarch, while Israel was, and remains, the most liberal theocracy in “the region”. For example, Israel routinely uses a despotic procedure called “administrative detention”. For some reason, the highest per-capita use of that occurs in Jordan (a truly despotic regime does not have to use British colonial laws that Brits would be ashamed to use, would they still have colonies, and no record of administrative detention in Falklands, Gibraltar of Bermudas). Advantage, Israel! However, since the sanctions on allied abusers of human rights range gamut from laughable to inconsequential, it is hard to tell if Israel is “hold” to more or less than the others.

    • hophmi on June 3, 2015, 11:06 am

      “Israel was, and remains, the most liberal theocracy in “the region”.”

      Israel isn’t a theocracy, Piotr. You can repeat this nonsense as much as you want, but while Israel may call itself a Jewish state, its legal system is largely based on the British system, and the country is largely secular. It’s not ruled by clerics or religious fanatics.

      “For example, Israel routinely uses a despotic procedure called “administrative detention”.”

      And the United States regularly imprisons undocumented immigrants, in much larger numbers than the Israelis administratively detain people.

      • piotr on June 6, 2015, 10:24 pm

        Glass half empty (of theocracy): hophmi calls Israel “largely secular”. The right to marry, divorce, refuse divorce, immigrate is in the hands of state paid clergy that use their own criteria, not regulated by the secular Knesset. Some aspect of lives are controlled by clergy, some are not, like in Iran, and granted, the proportions are different. But why the Ministry of Transportation attempted to ban self-service bicycle rentals in Tel Aviv on days of some religious holidays? Simply put, the Ministry was controlled by religious fanatics. In the new government, fanatics of various ilk control most of the government, although haredi fanatics do not particularly like Modern Orthodox fanatics, the former view compulsory military service as abomination, the latter, as sacred duty to take part in the Holy War.

        Concerning “largely British legal system”, Israel inherited the most retrograde parts of the British system, lack of the constitution and colonial artifacts like administrative detention (not used in the home country). USA is using something a bit similar in the case of undocumented aliens, but Israel uses it for domestic oppression, which is worse. In any case, USA ceased to be a normative democratic state.

      • echinococcus on June 7, 2015, 12:51 am

        Call it “Jihad”, with its proper name, so everybody can get it.

  19. DaBakr on June 2, 2015, 10:51 pm

    obamas lap-dog in-house Jew reporter agrees with Obama FP and and suggests a conflict between Israelis and American Jews and PW gets excited and salivates over the prospect of a ‘civil war’ amongst Jews. Wow. Such astounding news. And I was waiting for another gushing and excited comment about how the ‘tide is surely changed’ or ‘we have finally reached the tipping point’ *

    of course while ignoring that the vast majority of the ME has moved on from its own obsessive fixation of Israel and the Palestinian confllict. Sometimes it seems like PW is the only one not willing to ‘move on’ or tip. Nobody can say PW isn’t determined.

    • Qualtrough on June 3, 2015, 12:22 am

      DaBakr — “Keep moving, nothing to see here, move along”

    • mikeo on June 3, 2015, 2:19 am

      The Middle East has been destabilised, largely by interventions from outside actors. In the long run there’s no telling how these changes will affect Israel.

      The ideological gap between American Jews and Israeli Jews does appear to be getting larger, and by and large most American Jews are in denial about how far to the right the Israeli consensus has shifted. What happens when this is undeniable? Which is surely coming…

      DeBakr your comments are snide. You never engage with the facts honestly.

      There are daily stories about BDS in the Israeli and American Jewish press. “An existential threat” they wail. Why such clamour if everything is hunky dory?

      Today’s headline in Haaretz “Obama: Stalled talks make it hard to defend Israel”

      Subhead: “Obama hints at possibility that U.S. won’t veto French resolution on ending Israeli-Palestinian conflict at UN Security Council”

      But of course everything is fine, nothing will change, the status quo will continue forever…

      In your case: “The lady doth protest too much”

      • DaBakr on June 3, 2015, 9:55 pm

        @mk

        I “never engage” with the “facts”? hmm Funny- when people here on MW talk about the ‘tide turning’ the % of change they are referring to is ridiculously small. You are in a bubble of the far-left. While there might be some Israelis in a bubble of their extreme far-right views its only people on the left that think the % of extreme far-right in Israel is so large. They mix up center-right with extreme right and they blend together in the demonizing view of the ‘Zionist Entity’ Their wrong.

        And as for the tide turning in the US among its Jews?—what—-the % of anti-Zionist Jews changed from maybe 5-6% to 7-8%. I am guessing but I wouldn’t be surprised if was was even lower then that. Civil war? A joke. A divorce? The left-wing bubble in NYC and Hollywood is already divorced from reality. So please tell me what the “facts” are the % of US who do not identify as Zionists.

        And if you ever lived in Israel you would know it is like reading Mother Jones to take the US national pulse. It has a tiny readership. Probably MW readers help keep it afloat. ;)

      • James North on June 3, 2015, 10:58 pm

        If we are so insignificant, why are you here all the time?

      • DaBakr on June 3, 2015, 10:08 pm

        Also-if you ever lived in Israel you would know how small Haartz readership is. Its like trying to take the US pulse by reading American Socialist to take the pulse of the nation ;)

      • DaBakr on June 4, 2015, 1:37 am

        @JmN

        “If we are so insignificant, why are you here all the time? ”

        What a juvenile response. Why am I here? Obviously it is because I enjoy commenting here.
        Unless your of the absurd conspiracy school that claims every pro-Zionist poster is ‘working for the Mossad or whatever you call it…Hasbara Central’, I believe then I suppose there is nothing I could say that would convince you that I post here because I believe that Zionism is in its death throws and needs every ounce of support it can get to simply survive.

        Now-I wouldn’t disagree that Israel and Zionism need support but it is not because I think it is currently in danger. I have seen (myself personally) and read countless amounts on the failure of appeasement in the history of geo-political conflicts. I simply believe appeasement doesn’t work and has led to as much or more warfare then any amount of religious fanaticism. Of course fearing and then appeasing the fanatics (as many at mw would like to do) is how religious fanaticism works. And anticipating your reference to Israeli religious fanaticism-I understand you believe its equally dangerous but I simply state that since 1948 there has been no physical fear of harm to the world as a whole from extreme Jewish fanaticism. No desire to take over the world and a desire to be attached only to the place which one of the most influential religious books attaches them to (and everybody knows it though you here at mw will argue till the cows come home that its either untrue, evil, ridiculous, fanatical, illegal (your definition of what that means-coupled with a trillion links to anti-Zionist interpretations of so-called international law-of which there are a little less then a trillion counter -arguments)

        So really-to answer your question simply (and I said this before) I post here because it is entertaining to me -and not in a supercilious way. I am passionate about the US and Israel. I am unabashedly Zionist and do not define it anyway even close to the way Zionism is portrayed by the baying hounds of the far-left fringe both here on MW and in NYC/Hollywood.

        Two nations I am loyal to with no contradiction in what I feel is in both nations interest. (i realize this must seem maniacally psychotic to many here) I feel no different then -e.g. my _____ who has a dual CH passport or my friends who are dual US-Canadian, Lebanese/US or other friends who are dual Egyptian-US (and who swore he would never leave the US [30yrs, professor]but was overcome by passion during the ‘spring’) And he was never accused of being an ‘egypt-firster either. And it is sad but true that to remain friends with the dual lebanese and egyptian we must never discuss the i/p conflict. It is an unwritten code we seem to abide by naturally*

        Why do I come here? Maybe its to learn. I would not spend any time here if I thought there was nothing to learn. One thing I have learned however is: if I do happen to read something here I agree with that voicing any support for an article or comment will NOT be received with anything but skepticism and derision. Any jocularity is immediately assumed to be a cynical ploy. So its a bit like a game. When it ceases to be interesting, who knows.

        If MW ever stopped promoting itself as “the war of ideas” which clearly invites discussion and opinions that are in opposition to the majority voice I would cease to comment. And If MW wants to be a blogsite where the only opinions are ones approved of and tolerated by the owners, editors and commenters then simply state that and you would not have to ask that question.

        I should ask you-do you really want to have this site have its commentary section limited only to those that completely oppose Zionism, Israel as a Jewish Nation and who generally do not ascribe to a left leaning so-called ‘progressive’ view? It is already a blog that tolerates what?…maybe half a dozen commenters that are pro-Zionist? 1 0r 2 of them is set up as the community punching-bag/laughing stock. Others are so namely-pamby about their opposition I suppose the nicest thing that could be said is they are ‘fence-sitters’. (though by MW standards they are whats known as the now almost offensive and surely ‘racist’ ‘liberal Zionist’)

        What am I doing here? I don’t like war. In fact-I hate war. Nobody should have to experience the surreal hellacious reality of wanton random death. But thats a platitude thats easy to say. Those that have not experienced it can simply comment. I have yet known a time when there wasn’t either a war -or- the constant threat of a coming war. (soviets, chinese, korean, US, arab-Israeli, south america.)And I know there are people that have causes that make them feel immune to the fear of battle, war and death. Or make them think the endgame outweigh the costs. And this is the time that war becomes inevitable. Appeasement in my view is simply not a deterrent -but more an encouragement to continued violence and war. If I thought appeasement would actually bring peace and an end to the i/p conflict-I would advocate loudly for appeasement.

        I am willing to accept that many of the commenters here consider themselves anti-war as well. Maybe even some are pacifist. I sadly don’t see an end to this i/p conflict where there are two winners. No need to elaborate as that is what leads to the never-ending argument. But there is also no rush and no reason that this ultimate ‘decider’ of th conflict can not be forestalled and just outside the door for as long as is possible. 1year, 5years, 25yrs. The hudnah does not have to be officially signed in order for it to be the prevailing ideology of those that have control of the weapons from 1000s of rockets to f-35s. If-as so many here seem to point for-there was an equalling out of military strengths I think it would hasten a huge conflagration and not forestal one.
        If you want commenters like myself gone-either ban us or make a statement that our opinions are not wanted and we prefer to play in our own sandbox

      • Mooser on June 7, 2015, 11:28 am

        “If you want commenters like myself gone-either ban us or make a statement that our opinions are not wanted and we prefer to play in our own sandbox”

        ROTFLMSJAO!!! Dabakr, you couldn’t leave Mondo if you tried! Go ahead, chump, prove me wrong! Please, make me look dumb!
        Dabakr, you couldn’t tear yourself away from Mondo, and if you were banned, you would sign up again under another name. Go ahead, prove me wrong.

    • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 1:41 pm

      “obamas lap-dog in-house Jew reporter agrees…” “Dabakr”

      Dabakr, ixnay on this. Keep the Tribal Unity foremost in mind. Goldberg is an IDF vet. Would you like Gentiles to think that is all the respect a stern IDF vet gets?
      Remember, Dabakr, without our Jewish Tribal Unity, we have nothing, well, except an illegal nuclear arsenal, of course.

      • DaBakr on June 3, 2015, 10:12 pm

        Ok-I’ll be nicer since my original was monitored:

        @ms

        you should know more then most that some Jews are just jerks and serving in the IDF des not negate that.*

        tame enough now?

      • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 11:06 pm

        “you should know more then most that some Jews are just jerks”

        You got no tribal unity, Dabakr! You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

      • DaBakr on June 4, 2015, 5:21 pm

        @ms

        you mean because I think of MW as the ‘golden calf’?

      • Mooser on June 5, 2015, 1:34 pm

        “you mean because I think of MW as the ‘golden calf’?”

        Yeah, anti-Zionism is going to be off big. It’s all self-interest. As a matter of fact, if the BDS people manage to destroy Israel, they’ve been promised a free country!

        Yeah, we’ve got our “Golden Calf” and you just keep waiting around for that ‘red heifer’ Dabakr.

      • Landie_C on June 8, 2015, 7:47 am

        Mooser: What exactly does that mean, “without our Jewish Tribal Unity, we have nothing” and how does that differ from what other people might have sans tribal unity? And are you referring to Israeli Jews only, or all Jews?

      • Mooser on June 9, 2015, 1:57 pm

        “What exactly does that mean, “without our Jewish Tribal Unity, we have nothing”

        It’s sarcasm. I’d like to say it’s cynicism, but it probably doesn’t rise to that.

  20. JLewisDickerson on June 2, 2015, 10:51 pm

    RE: “If current trends continue, a civil war is coming. It will be a very civil, civil war, but it will be a civil war nonetheless, between an American Jewry that has been nurtured on the values of the Civil Rights Movement, and an Israeli Jewry that has been taught, harshly, that the Middle East is not a place of mercy.” ~ Jeffrey Goldberg

    MY COMMENT: I am reminded of the “Id monster” in the 1956 film Forbidden Planet. Hopefully, Robby the Robot and 1950s sex goddess Anne Francis will come to the rescue! ! !

    • RoHa on June 3, 2015, 1:59 am

      One of my favourite films. I have the DVD.

      The scenes with Anne Francis cause some unseemly drooling.

      • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 1:43 pm

        “One of my favourite films. I have the DVD. “

        Cool. I’ve got the ADD and the DT’s, but I’ve never had that. Do you come out in spots?

      • RoHa on June 3, 2015, 6:51 pm

        Stripes.
        But I’ll say no more. You know how it is with these [ahem!] social problems.

    • JLewisDickerson on June 3, 2015, 1:56 pm

      MY REPLY: You just can’t beat the concept of “Monsters from the Id”! ! !

      FROM WIKIPEDIA (Forbidden Planet): [EXCERPT] . . . In the 23rd century, to discover the fate of an expedition sent 20 years earlier, starship C-57D reaches the distant planet Altair IV. . .
      . . . The next night, equipment aboard the starship is sabotaged by an invisible intruder. Adams and Ostrow confront Morbius the following morning. They learn he has been studying the Krell, a highly advanced native race that mysteriously died out suddenly 200,000 years before. In a Krell laboratory Morbius shows Adams and Ostrow a device he calls a “plastic educator”, capable of measuring and enhancing intellectual capacity. When Morbius first used this machine, he barely survived but discovered his intellect had been permanently doubled, enabling him, along with information from a stored Krell library, to build Robby and the other “technological marvels” in his home. Morbius then takes them on a tour of a vast cube-shaped underground Krell machine complex, 20 miles (30 km) on a side, still functioning and powered by 9,200 thermonuclear reactors. Afterwards, Adams demands that the Krell’s knowledge be turned over for Earth supervision. Morbius refuses, citing the potential danger that Krell technology poses if it were to fall into human hands prematurely. . .
      Later, while Adams confronts Morbius at his home, Ostrow sneaks away to use the Krell educator; as Morbius had warned, he is fatally injured. Ostrow explains to Adams that the Great Machine was built to materialize anything the Krell could imagine, projecting matter anywhere on the planet. With his dying breath, he also says the Krell forgot one thing: “Monsters from the Id”. Adams asserts that Morbius’ subconscious mind, enhanced by the “plastic educator”, can utilize the Great Machine, recreating the Id monster that killed the original expedition and attacked the C-57-D’s crew. Morbius refuses to accept this conclusion.
      After Altaira declares her love for Adams in defiance of her father’s wishes, Robby detects the creature approaching. Morbius commands the robot to kill it, but Robby knows it is a manifestation of Morbius; his programming to never harm humans conflicts with Morbius’ command, shutting Robby down. The creature melts through the indestructible Krell metal doors of the laboratory where Adams, Altaira, and Morbius have now taken refuge. Morbius finally accepts the truth: the creature is an extension of his own mind, “his evil self”. He then confronts the creature as it enters, but he is fatally injured. As Morbius dies, he has Adams unknowingly initiate an irreversible chain reaction within the Great Machine. He then warns that Adams and Altaira must be 100 million miles away within 24 hours. . .

      P.S. The scenes with Anne Francis cause some unseemly drooling. – https://goo.gl/9TVK4d

      Forbidden Planet Documentary 1 of 2 [VIDEO, 14:31] – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD_Ns-GcnnI
      Forbidden Planet Documentary 2 of 2 [VIDEO, 12:02] – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK3czDsHZbE

      • RoHa on June 3, 2015, 6:54 pm

        Shakespeare wrote the script. The director tweaked it a bit and changed Ariel into Robby.

  21. annie on June 2, 2015, 11:33 pm

    goldberg:

    My theory of the Netanyahu-Obama relationship is that Obama looks at Netanyahu and asks himself, “What kind of Jew is this?”

    this is weird. i can’t recall ever thinking anything remotely like this. what kind of a person is this? (a**hole X 1000), what kind of a leader is this? (hideous, callous, maniacal, egotistical, power hungry), what kind of a man is this? ..etc. but ‘what kind of a jew is this?’ reduces a person to one myopic identity. but maybe jews talk like this. i doubt obama does tho. and i also don’t think obama thinks he’s jewish. that’s crazy.

    phil:

    Again, that was four years ago. A lifetime in politics. The left has taken giant steps since then, tragically aided by another Israeli massacre in Gaza ….

    2 more massacres. don’t forget nov of 2012.

    • oldgeezer on June 2, 2015, 11:45 pm

      Annie I personally see things your way but it is not only Jews who see things that way. I can’t name a particular person but I also can’t the number of times I have heard the expressions “That’s not very Christian of him” or “He/she is behaving very UnChristianlike”

      • echinococcus on June 3, 2015, 2:48 am

        Yeah, and way, way more frequently heard in these here States.

    • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 12:48 pm

      Obama sings:

      What kind of Jew is this?
      Not like the ones I knew,
      Back when I organized
      Communities in Chicago!

      He’s such a rabid guy,
      But yet I must,
      Placate his crazy ass,
      And still he makes a fuss!

  22. talknic on June 2, 2015, 11:52 pm

    Goldberg talking about a Jewish spring in the US? Cute. No article favoring Israel = no income. Goldberg and his kind will say anything no matter how inane or stupid or wrong as long as it doesn’t go anywhere near the real issue that has had world’s leaders in a bind for decades.

    The possibility of a failed, bankrupt, rogue state with nukes in the hands of the insane.

    I predict that if Israel were made to adhere to International Law, its obligations as a state and as a UN Member, the astronomical costs of attempting to resettle hundreds of thousands if not millions of its citizens in actual Israeli territory and the cost of rightful reparations to the Palestinians for property, hardship, dispossession, theft of resources and territories for 67 years will send the Jewish state bankrupt.

    Civil war will break out in non-Israeli territory between the state and hundreds of thousands of disillusioned and very angry settlers who have been willingly or un-wittingly implanted illegally in non-Israeli territory by successive Israeli Governments Israel since proclaiming its borders effective at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time).

    The civil war will quickly spread and engulf all of Israel as the military is rendered in-effective due to infighting, leaving Israel’s nukes vulnerable to complete nut cases backed by the likes of Nuke ’em Adelson and his evil friends as they desperately try to hold on to their investment in the ultimate religious relic.

    • hophmi on June 3, 2015, 11:14 am

      “I predict that if Israel were made to adhere to International Law, its obligations as a state and as a UN Member, the astronomical costs of attempting to resettle hundreds of thousands if not millions of its citizens in actual Israeli territory and the cost of rightful reparations to the Palestinians for property, hardship, dispossession, theft of resources and territories for 67 years will send the Jewish state bankrupt.

      “Civil war will break out in non-Israeli territory between the state and hundreds of thousands of disillusioned and very angry settlers who have been willingly or un-wittingly implanted illegally in non-Israeli territory by successive Israeli Governments Israel since proclaiming its borders effective at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time).”

      You have Israel confused with the Arab world, where civil wars break out over much less.

      But, generally, I doubt it. You’re engaging in wishful thinking; this is what you hope will happen, because you are hoping Jews will kill one another.

      • eljay on June 3, 2015, 12:37 pm

        || hophmi: … You’re engaging in wishful thinking; this is what you hope will happen, because you are hoping Jews will kill one another. ||

        Could you please provide a link to or a precise quote of just one of talknic’s comments in which he clearly and unambiguously “hopes Jews will kill one another”? I trust his words more than I trust your fevered imagination. Thanks.

      • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 12:55 pm

        BANG!!! “My God, Hophmi, this is awful, you just killed another Jew! “Oh don’t be stupid Mooser, he was no Jew, I excommunicated him while the bullet was in flight!” “oh, that’s all right then, now, who can we get to replace Begin?”

      • talknic on June 3, 2015, 2:26 pm

        @ hophmi

        “You have Israel confused with the Arab world, where civil wars break out over much less”

        “much less” That’s an interesting admission that it’s a larger issue than those faced by the Arab states.

        No Arab State has had consecutive Governments who have deceived their citizens into illegally settling for over six decades in territory that doesn’t belong to their state. Do you really think they’ll be grateful and move peacefully were Israel to at last adhere to the law?

        “But, generally, I doubt it. You’re engaging in wishful thinking; this is what you hope will happen, because you are hoping Jews will kill one another.”

        hophmi the great mind reader has spoken, magically supplanting in the process Israelis with Jews.

        The last thing I hope for you stupid person, is that anyone gets killed.

        You continually yap at the wrong people. Go yap at the Hasbara pukemeisters who deceitfully claim Israel didn’t proclaim any borders, the liars who have deceived honest Israelis for 67 years. The people who encourage Israelis to illegally settle in Occupied Territories in breach of a convention that was adopted to protect ALL civilians, including those of the Occupying Power from the expected violent responses of people under occupation. The scum who sell honest Israelis land that has never belonged to their state.

        Oh … sorry. You can’t. They’d fire you

      • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 11:17 pm

        “The people who encourage Israelis to illegally settle in Occupied Territories in breach of a convention that was adopted to protect ALL civilians, including those of the Occupying Power from the expected violent responses of people under occupation. The scum who sell honest Israelis land that has never belonged to their state.”

        That can’t be happening, “talknic”. Tribal Unity forbids it. One group of Jews perpetrating a fraud on another group, taking advantage of them? Can’t be happening.

    • pabelmont on June 3, 2015, 7:12 pm

      Civil war inside Israel (and OPTs of course) has long been warned of. I fear the effect of such civil war on bystanders (Palestinians and Lebanese), because all Israelis who carry guns seem to aim first at Arabs.

  23. RobertHenryEller on June 3, 2015, 3:59 am

    “no president has been shaped to the degree that Obama has been shaped by exposure to Jewish mentors, Jewish teachers, Jewish fellow community-organizers, Jewish advisers, Jewish political supporters, Jewish writers, and Jewish thought.” – Goldberg

    If this is the criteria, and considering the influence Jewish American neo-cons had on him, I’d say that George W. Bush was the first Jewish President.

    • bryan on June 3, 2015, 8:21 am

      Perhaps Truman, in his inordinate haste to recognize the new state of Israel was first; or perhaps Johnson, in his readiness to cover up the USS Liberty atrocity, or perhaps Carter with his endlessly patient diplomacy to help Israel to negotiate its first peace agreement, and his obvious commitment to Jewish values of peace and justice, or perhaps Reagan, so obviously moved to support Israel by his early experience in liberating Auschwitz, or perhaps Clinton…….. or perhaps……. In fact has there ever been a US President who did not dote upon Israel, and the associated votes and campaign finance, and did not provide unquestioning economic, military and diplomatic support?

    • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 1:59 pm

      “no president has been shaped to the degree that Obama has been shaped by exposure to Jewish mentors, Jewish teachers, Jewish fellow community-organizers, Jewish advisers, Jewish political supporters, Jewish writers, and Jewish thought.”

      That must have been after Obama dumped Rev. Wright, Paul Ayers and Saul Alinsky!

  24. Kay24 on June 3, 2015, 6:30 am

    Another sign of apartheid and the way these poor Palestinians kids are treated. To make it even more outrageous, most of these kids were from an orphanage. It is terrifying to think of the way these kids must be treated having no one to be concerned about them. Zionists are one of the most cruel people on earth. They pretend they are a civilized democracy, but their behavior is anything but.

    “RAMALLAH (Ma’an) — Palestinian children are being beaten and tortured in a “heinous” way by Israeli soldiers during interrogation, a Palestinian Authority lawyer has said.
    Hiba Masalha, a lawyer for the PA committee of prisoners’ affairs, said in a statement on Sunday that teenage detainees are being “terrified, threatened and blackmailed” in contravention of international law and conventions advocating children’s rights.”

    http://www.juancole.com/2015/06/palestinian-children-torture-israeli.html#comment-326245

  25. eusebio on June 3, 2015, 8:48 am

    We hate the action of state of Israel not the jews

  26. tony greenstein on June 3, 2015, 8:59 am

    Goldberg may see US policy in relation to Israel as a product of Obama’s philo-Semitism or whatever, but Obama represents the interests of the US Corporate class, the Military/Industrial complex that Eisenhower referred to. Of course he may represent a different wing to that of Bush and Cheney, he may prefer cooption rather than confrontation, but he serves the same master, which is why he tends to the same solutions in the end.

    More interesting is the way that US policy is collapsing under the weight of its own contradictions in Iraq. You can’t be best friends with the Saudis and then oppose their bastard offspring ISIS whilst at the same time confronting the only power that is capable of confronting them, Iran and not knowing who you are allied with in Syria.

  27. Atlantaiconoclast on June 3, 2015, 9:23 am

    I don’t see how American Jews will change their position on this issue till many more of them confront the racism/supremacism within their communities.

  28. RobertHenryEller on June 3, 2015, 10:23 am

    “But why will it be a civil civil war? I am afraid it won’t be. ”

    I know it won’t be a civil civil war. How? Observe the “civil” civil war going on right now between war camp Israelis and peace camp Israelis. Think war camp Israelis have any more respect for most Jewish Americans than they have for their “fellow” peace camp Israelis?

    • Mooser on June 3, 2015, 1:57 pm

      “But why will it be a civil civil war? I am afraid it won’t be.”

      Ever heard the old saw about “sticks and stones”?

  29. just on June 3, 2015, 3:36 pm

    Somewhat related, there is a lengthy, interesting article from still staunchly Zionist Beinart today:

    “The era of Iran is over; the age of BDS begins
    How the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement is changing organized American Jewish life.

    …..Already, BDS is changing the landscape of organized American Jewish life. First, it is making Washington less important, which may make AIPAC less important. AIPAC’s power rests on the relations between its members and members of Congress. But the BDS movement bypasses Congress in favor of universities, liberal Christian groups and trade unions, where it can gain a more sympathetic ear. The response has been a gold rush among American Jewish groups seeking to lead the anti-BDS charge. In 2010, the Jewish Federations of North America and the Jewish Council on Public Affairs created the Israel Action Network to combat Israel’s “delegitimization.” As the Forward notes, AIPAC, the Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Committee have all recently “set up operations geared at students” largely to do the same thing. In Washington, AIPAC still dominates. But in these new arenas where the BDS struggle will be fought, AIPAC is just one Jewish group among many.

    The second consequence of the rise of BDS will be to increase the prominence of Jewish Voices for Peace. Right now, many establishment-minded American Jews don’t know what JVP is. In their mind, J Street still represents American Jewry’s left flank. But as the only significant American Jewish group to support BDS, Jewish Voices for Peace will grow in prominence as the movement itself does. Already, non-Jewish BDS activists cite JVP as evidence that American Jews do not monolithically oppose their cause. The more that mainstream American Jews hear this, the more enraged at JVP they will become. How exactly that rage will express itself, I don’t know. But as JVP grows, its battles with the American Jewish establishment will make those of J Street look tame.

    Finally, BDS will spark a growing debate among American Jews about Zionism itself. American Jews are used to thinking of Palestinians as residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. (By using the phrase “Arab Israelis,” American Jews even delude themselves that the Arabs living inside the 1967 lines are not really Palestinian.) But many of the Palestinians active in BDS live in the West or hail from Israel proper or both. That means that for them personally, the rights of Palestinian citizens of Israel and the rights of Palestinian refugees are at least as important as the rights of Palestinians in the occupied territories.

    Ending Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza doesn’t threaten its character as a Jewish state. To the contrary, it may help preserve it, which is why many centrist American Jews support the two-state solution. But as the BDS movement grows more prominent, it will spark more debate about Palestinian citizens and Palestinians refugees, both subjects that expose the tension between Israel’s democratic character and its policies — in immigration and public life — that privilege Jews.

    Inside the American Jewish establishment, the first response to the BDS movement’s challenge to Zionism has been to cry anti-Semitism. But that response conceals a dirty little secret: that many “pro-Israel” activists haven’t thought much about the tension between Jewish statehood and liberal democracy, and thus don’t really know how to justify Zionism to an audience of skeptical, progressive non-Jews.

    Justifying Zionism to liberals is not an impossible task. But neither is it intellectually or morally simple. And it will require establishment-minded American Jews to defend principles they have long taken for granted. Of all the BDS movement’s consequences for American Jews, that may prove the most significant of all. ”

    more behind the paywall @ http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.659525?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    • RoHa on June 3, 2015, 7:16 pm

      “Justifying Zionism to liberals is not an impossible task.”

      I haven’t seen a convincing justification yet.

      • Landie_C on June 8, 2015, 8:52 am

        Neither have I, RoHa, and it would have helped Beinart’s case if he could have cited just one essay or book in support of that claim.

  30. Landie_C on June 8, 2015, 8:46 am

    A breach between Israelis and non-Israeli Jews is nothing new; indeed, it’s inevitable – Israel IS a foreign country, after all. But the coming Civil War is the direct consequence of the Likud’s bellicosity, chauvinism and hypervisibility on the “world stage”.

    Instead of being a Jewish state that speaks for all Jews, Israel is increasingly perceived as a neocon state that speaks for all neocons. (Thanks in no small measure to Bibi).

    It’s the spiritual homeland of the likes of Dick Cheney, not Henrietta Szold.

    Many Jews are aware that a disproportionate number of critics and exposers of neocon plans and practices during the Shrub administration were Jews themselves. So one might consider that a harbinger of things to come.

    But what most Jewish critics of Israel have yet to (re) connect with in a meaningful way is the legacy of the hugely popular anti-Zionist Bund and like-minded Jewish anti-Zionists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The opposition to the Zionists went much further and deeper than Einstein, Magnes, and Arendt. What is so astonishing is how prescient this criticism of statist Zionists really was.

    Jewish anti-Zionists need to revisit these works and to challenge Jewish university students to engage with this (lost) part of their Jewish heritage. When this happens, the Civil War can be said to have begun in earnest.

  31. Landie_C on June 8, 2015, 9:08 am

    Not that I don’t also find fault with some of the content in those paragraphs Phil cites, but:

    How does Phil distinguish between Jewish “narcissism” and Jewish (or anyone else’s) ethnic “esteem”?

    What “happy horseshit” about Jewish values (the liberal variety) does he find legitimate?

    I would enjoy reading anything he has written on this site or elsewhere, that cites so much as a Talmudic verse or Judaic narrative (any kind) with some affection and approval.

    • Mooser on June 9, 2015, 2:06 pm

      “I would enjoy reading anything he has written on this site or elsewhere, that cites so much as a Talmudic verse or Judaic narrative (any kind) with some affection and approval.”

      ” The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.”

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