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It’s time for American Jews to recognize they have been duped

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Two stories came to my attention this morning. One was an opinion piece in the NYT about the imminent destruction of Susiya written by Nasser Nawaja, resident of Susiya (‘Don’t Level My Village’, 23 July 2015). The second story, by Raphael Ahren in the Times of Israel is about the apparent decline in support for Israel among American Jews (‘World Jewry ever more uneasy with Israel, major study finds’, 23 July 2015).

As a long-time activist for Palestinian rights and an anti-Zionist, I should have been pleased to read that American Jews increasingly question their knee-jerk support for Israel.  But instead, I felt a familiar frustration. Jewish American support for Israel has always been vital for Israel and not just for economic reasons. Among other things, Jewish American money and corporate support have been fundamental to Israel’s creation and to its infrastructure, and they enabled the development of Israel’s thriving hi-tech sector. But Israel also relies on Jewish American support for its feelings of legitimacy. As long as American Jews support Israel ‘right or wrong’, Israel feels justified in its existence and in everything it does.

I believe Israeli Jews feel in the depth of their bones that Israel’s existence the way it is, is illegitimate. This is why the Israeli government reacts with such vitriol to the idea that the BDS, the boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign, for example, is an attempt to ‘delegitimse’ Israel. This is the narrative they use. Losing the support of American Jews means losing the flimsy hold that Israeli Jews have on the sense that they have a right to have the kind of state they have — an exclusively Jewish state created at the expense of, and on the ruins of an entire people, their country, their society, history and culture.

The Israeli state does everything in its power to obscure the true meaning of the Zionist movement, and obliterate the memory of what Israel did back in 1947-1948. In an ongoing campaign of misinformation, miseducation, outright lies, omissions and a manipulation of basic tribal feelings of fear and the need to belong, Israel works persistently to rub out what it is doing right now. The story of Susiya demonstrates that the settler-colonial process is alive and well. Israel continues to erase Palestinian villages and towns in order to spread itself further, continue to conquer and replace the indigenous people with its own.

So when I read this in the article from the Times of Israel, “Half of survey respondents said the Israeli army should strive for ‘a balance between morality and the fact that it is facing ruthless enemies who wish to destroy it’”, I feel deeply frustrated. This says so much about how little American Jews grasp what Israel really is. They want Israel to be ‘moral’? Citing views by American Jews the article also says, “In order for Jews to support Israel it must be better than other countries”, a discussion group participant from Dallas is quoted as saying. In Atlanta, someone said that “Diaspora Jews need to know that Israel is behaving morally.”

This illustrates the deepest problem within the American Jewish community and elsewhere in the West. If Israel behaved more ‘morally’ American and other Western Jews would have an easier time supporting it. But how can Israel behave ‘morally’ when it is a settler-colonial state? When have any settler-colonial societies behaved morally? It is an oxymoron. Settler-colonialism is a crime against humanity. A crime can’t behave morally…

It is this chasm, this disconnect in the minds of Western Jews that infuriates me the most. When they read a story like Susiya they don’t see that it is a symptom of the wider context of settler-colonialism. They think it’s a symptom of how Israel suddenly got worse and became immoral. Still steeped in Israel’s Zionist mythology fueled by generations of Israeli Hasbara efforts, Western Jews truly believe that Israel used to be better but that it has gotten worse, moved to the right. Israel has always been right-wing, if right-wing in this context means committing and then whitewashing Zionist settler-colonialism and its obvious and characteristic evils.

Israel has not changed for the worse, it’s always been bad. The psychological rot in the Israeli psyche runs deep and I felt it from the moment I became aware of myself. In hindsight I know that this is why I left in 1991. I left to save my life and my sanity. Israeli society has always been sick because you can’t build something healthy on a criminal foundation, where so much abuse has been, and still is being inflicted on others. Not everyone in Israel is a psychopath. Ordinary people don’t do so well when they live a lie and cover up evil deeds. Just watch the psychology in families where child abuse is committed and not acknowledged. It’s torturous.

American Jews either do not know or refuse to acknowledge that Israel is a settler colonial project. If they knew or if they acknowledge it, would it make a difference to their opinion?

I will not trust American Jews and their supposed left-liberal values until I see intellectual honesty. I want to see true human courage to cope with the feelings that facing the truth about Israel can bring up. As long as they exclude the Palestinians, I won’t believe or trust any good deeds, or any humanitarian sentiments that Jews around the world have for marginalised, oppressed groups. Until they show true moral courage and conviction indiscriminately, I am just not buying it. I don’t have time or respect for those who are Progressive Except on Palestine (PEP).

I am not being paid a commission by Ilan Pappé’s publishers. But I will not be able to respect Western Jews until The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine becomes an essential read for every member of the Jewish community out there and until things are discussed honestly. Willful blindness means you base your views on fiction or a distorted version of reality, and this leads to a schizophrenic, nonsensical existence. But even more importantly it is nothing less than full collusion with a massive crime against humanity. I hold every Zionist Western Jew who is an apologist for Israel, or who supports it, complicit in Israel’s crimes. The truth is out there for everyone to read about and see in great details. There is no excuse for this kind of dishonesty. It is time American Jews faced the truth and drew the obvious conclusions from it.

Avigail
About Avigail Abarbanel

Avigail Abarbanel was born and raised in Israel. She moved to Australia in 1991 and now lives in the north of Scotland. She works as a psychotherapist and clinical supervisor in private practice and is an activist for Palestinian rights. She is the editor of Beyond Tribal Loyalties: Personal Stories of Jewish Peace Activists (Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2012).

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452 Responses

  1. jon s
    jon s
    July 25, 2015, 2:45 pm

    Wow, I don’t recall ever seeing that photo, evidently from the Yom Kippur War:
    In the center are Ariel Sharon, Leonard Cohen (singing), Matti Caspi (with guitar).

    • amigo
      amigo
      July 25, 2015, 4:29 pm

      Enough to make a normal human being puke , eh Jon S.But you can use it as an education (propaganda ) tool for your victim,s in class.You can let them wash it down with lashings of koolaid.

    • justicewillprevail
      justicewillprevail
      July 25, 2015, 5:59 pm

      That’s all you’ve got to say? Ridiculous, and deeply revealing.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 25, 2015, 7:08 pm

      You think the photo is good, you should try reading the article.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 26, 2015, 4:08 am

        Thank you Mooser! :)

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 26, 2015, 7:44 pm

        “Thank you Mooser! :)”

        You’re welcome. I enjoyed the article.

    • John O
      John O
      July 25, 2015, 8:02 pm

      I used to adore Leonard Cohen, until I read Sylvie Simmonds’ biography of him, and learned how appallingly he treated Marianne (of “So long…” fame”). You can go off people.

    • Marnie
      Marnie
      July 26, 2015, 12:36 am

      You think it was ’73? Maybe it was a pre Sabra/Shatila “give ’em hell IDF” rally or a post Sabra/Shatila “don’t worry/be happy, you were only doing your job” sing-along.

      • John O
        John O
        July 26, 2015, 3:17 am

        Cohen certainly went to Israel in ’73 and tried to join the IDF, but was asked to entertain the troops instead.

      • jon s
        jon s
        July 26, 2015, 5:26 am

        I’m pretty sure that it’s 1973, especially because of the presence of Leonard Cohen.
        Also if it was 1982 Sharon wouldn’t be in uniform.

      • Marnie
        Marnie
        July 26, 2015, 7:38 am

        Thanks John O. That’s extra information about someone I didn’t care about before and care even less about now.

      • amigo
        amigo
        July 26, 2015, 3:17 pm

        “Cohen certainly went to Israel in ’73 and tried to join the IDF, but was asked to entertain the troops instead.” John O.

        You sure that,s not Tom Jones.

      • just
        just
        July 26, 2015, 3:34 pm

        lol, amigo!

      • John O
        John O
        July 26, 2015, 4:22 pm

        “You sure that,s not Tom Jones.”

        Positive. Just look at the puzzled expressions on the soldiers’ faces. Would they have been that nonplussed if they were hearing a stirring rendition of “Delilah”?

      • amigo
        amigo
        July 26, 2015, 5:22 pm

        “Positive. Just look at the puzzled expressions on the soldiers’ faces. Would they have been that nonplussed if they were hearing a stirring rendition of “Delilah”? John O

        Or that line from “The Green green green grass “.

        “Where is that old “Olive” tree that I used to play on.”

      • El Cazador
        El Cazador
        April 21, 2016, 11:28 am

        That’s why I added this once already:

        Ariel Charogne, if you ask me…

    • ivri
      ivri
      July 26, 2015, 7:25 am

      What can I say, that was my first reaction too. A human being is a human being. This is a great photo – projects the “Israel reality”, which explains how this miniature entity defied all odds and not just survived but thrived.
      Thanks Avigail – I also hope that sometime you will “see the light” and resume your old perspective about Israel (after all you bear a last name that means something to this people and its pre-Zionist torturous history)

      • Shmuel
        Shmuel
        July 26, 2015, 8:09 am

        after all you bear a last name that means something to this people and its pre-Zionist torturous history

        One of the most notable features of Don Isaac’s biblical commentary is the list of questions at the beginning of every passage. He is thus the “asker of questions” — a role that Avigail has certainly embraced.

        Interestingly, Amos Oz, in his novel Judas, chose to name the character opposed to partition and the creation of a separate Jewish state, Shealtiel Abarbanel (to use the spelling adopted by Avigail’s family). Further reinforcing the questioning associated with Don Isaac by giving his character the first name Shealtiel (containing the root ShʾAL, “to question”).

        By the way, characterising all of Jewish history (or at least some 4.5 centuries of it) as “pre-Zionist” is really quite something. The expression putting the cart before the horse doesn’t even begin to describe it.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 26, 2015, 8:11 am

        Hello Ivri, thank you for your comment. No chance of that I’m afraid. As Arundhati Roy said: “The trouble is that once you see it, you can’t unsee it. And once you’ve seen it, keeping quiet, saying nothing, becomes as political an act as speaking out. There’s no innocence. Either way, you’re accountable.”

        Have you by any chance read the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, and if so what did you think? I know it was not translated to Hebrew but it looks like your English is very good.

      • ivri
        ivri
        July 26, 2015, 10:15 am

        Avigail, I see no reason for you to be afraid. I see that you live in Scotland, which is a pro-Palestinian stronghold, particularly the NSP there (but then, peculiarly, it may have actually, unintentionally, served an Israeli interest in scaring English voters (for other reasons) into the Tories camp – so you can never know in this world who will end up helping you… Maybe you will too…) .
        More to the point I am sure you know that the polemics about the Israel-Palestine saga is almost a century old and so much was written on that – from just about any possible angle possible from either direction – that it feels like there is nothing new you can really add to that anymore (just recycle arguments in the umpteenth time) and that is why I avoid it.
        So putting aside the “who is right” dimension and just turning to your central point in this article, I am pretty sure that you are fully aware of what pleading to the US, and its Jewry in particular, to abandon Israel to its fate would mean for the Jews living there now. A quick glance at what goes on in the Mid-East at large these days is enough here. This glance will also reveal in a comparative manner the conditions of Palestinians living in Israel`s territory versus those of many people, not just Palestinians, in neighboring countries – which should pose yet another question to you in regard to the veracity of this campaign that you pursue here.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 26, 2015, 10:50 am

        Ivri, First, please do not take my words out of context, not even in jest. I don’t like it. I say what I say very clearly.

        Second, Israel is a settler-colonial project. Please do not try to confuse the issue here by saying there are so many angles… There are no angles on colonialism or any other human evil like slavery or child abuse. Like someone else aptly said above, you are either with the slave or the slave owner.

        To me the point is clear. The Zionist movement did *not* have a right to create a Jewish ‘safe haven’ at the expense of another people. That’s all. When we did this, we stopped being innocent victims and became perpetrators. It really isn’t that complicated. We do not debate with pedophiles and give them the platform to argue the merits of abusing children, neither do we allow slave owners to argue why it’s OK to have slavery (at least not anymore. William Wilberforce had to face people like that in his time). Settler-colonialism is immoral, unsupportable, not to mention unsustainable. What other angle do you wish to present on this issue, unless of course you wish to argue that Israel is not a settler-colonial state…?

        I get it that you are afraid of antisemitism. Your thinking comes across really clearly to me. I get also that you think I am naïve to believe that I will be spared when the next holocaust happens. I have heard it all so many time before from people on the inside of the Jewish cult mentality. Well Ivri, let me tell you, I am not afraid of antisemitism and I do not believe that another holocaust is going to happen or any other attempt at annihilating the Jewish people. Irrespective, whatever happens, I am taking my chances with the rest of humanity out here, outside the Jewish ghetto.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 26, 2015, 10:56 am

        Okay, that sealed it!
        I’m in love.
        I want your album, your t-shirt and your tour dates.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo
        July 26, 2015, 11:12 am

        “Okay, that sealed it!
        I’m in love.
        I want your album, your t-shirt and your tour dates.”

        Ditto that CG !

        Great response Avigail! But don’t worry, I’m sure Ivri will be back. He’s just checking that trusted old hasbara handbook to look for an appropriate response. I’m sure he’ll be back as soon as he finds it! We’re waiting Ivri….

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 26, 2015, 11:41 am

        Hi again Bornajoo! I said to Maximus that I think Ivri works for the Israeli government. I think you might be more right than you think about the Hasbara handbook. Well said…

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 26, 2015, 11:39 am

        This 50 year old girl is blushing CG… :)

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 26, 2015, 12:28 pm

        That is what “Irving”, does.
        Takes things out of context, starts twisting your words into pretzel shapes, until he finds himself as a worm on a hook. Then…Poof! The nightmare ends…until he shows up another day acting like nothing happened…and it starts all over again.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 5:03 am

        Yes, CigarGod, I have noticed this pattern before. There is no attempt at really relating, just bashing words together, but no real attention to the person. It’s precisely what it felt like to live in Israel. The individual isn’t really important. They are only important in so much as they are a part of the collective and help the collective survive. And if the individual questions, they are there to be shown the error of their ways so that they can be brought back to the collective to continue to play their part. Very much cult sociology. I find it sad.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 27, 2015, 8:23 am

        I very much understand the cultish control you relate of your own childhood. Mine was much the same. One good thing is I developed a finely tuned sense of justice (at least in the context of family conflicts…and Jewish history/culture). Part of my families trying to get me back into line, was to send me to Israel for a semester in high school. Fortunately, the experience had the opposite effect. After the semester, I refused to come home, and traveled as widely in the region as I could. To this day, I’m the black sheep in the family, even tho I see a little light get thru to my siblings from time to time. But, as they have married in (Jewish), and become more observant, they are less inclined to listen to contradictions and injustices. Peer pressure is a powerful thing. I suspect this is the same illness that jon s, yonah and others here are trapped in.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 3:26 pm

        Thank you CigarGod. I am so sorry you have had to go through this appalling experience but you know that although you / us are in a minority, you are by no means alone. I now understand why you related to my thoughts that the Jewish collective is cultish. Cults always put loyalty to the group ahead of loyalty to the individual. I am sorry that this is your experience but I know also that it’s easier to live well with yourself despite those loses than it is to live a lie… You are in good company. Thanks again and well done to you!

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 27, 2015, 3:44 pm

        Thank you. Older, wiser. Love the wiser part. I would pay any price for freedom. So glad I was able to.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 3:47 pm

        I know what you mean CG! I feel the same way.

      • ivri
        ivri
        July 26, 2015, 11:22 am

        @Cigar & Born…
        And the real bonus for the one who wins her heart: You might be entitled to an Israeli passport!!

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius
        July 26, 2015, 11:28 am

        “this miniature entity defied all odds and not just survived but thrived. ”

        What ‘odds’? It was a heavily armed colonial entity with backing from the major world powers, fighting against 3rd world armies only recently freed from the shackles of colonialism. This ”plucky little Israel’ myth is just that – a myth.

        As for ‘thrived’, I’m not sure I’d use that word to describe a country which has gone to war 4 times in the last decade, relies on charity from gentiles and whose society is descending into outright fascism.

      • ivri
        ivri
        July 26, 2015, 11:39 am

        @shmuel: “putting the cart before the horse”
        Well, is it not true that Jews throughout their exile time, everywhere in the world, prayed day in and day out (3 times a day) – it`s right in the pray book – for their eventual return to their ancient homeland, re-establishing national sovereignty there? Doing so even when there seemed no practical chance to have that accomplished.

      • DoubleStandard
        DoubleStandard
        July 26, 2015, 12:04 pm

        Why are you so sure that there won’t be another Holocaust at some point?

        Wishful thinking or historical blindness?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 26, 2015, 12:08 pm

        “The expression putting the cart before the horse doesn’t even begin to describe it.”

        You are right, Shmuel. It’s much more like the old saying about “locking in the horses before lighting the barn on fire”

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 6:09 am

        Oh, for god’s sake Mooser, really??

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 26, 2015, 1:34 pm

        “Takes things out of context, starts twisting your words into pretzel shapes, until he finds himself as a worm on a hook. Then…Poof! The nightmare ends…until he shows up another day acting like nothing happened…and it starts all over again.”

        It is time to introduce my peer-reviewed (when you gotta go, you gotta go. And it was peer-review which found the paradox, and you try to cross this theory on a chicken, and you’ll know viaduct!) hypothesis of the patheticology at work: What you have just described is called “The Ziocaine Syndrome” and repeated Ziocaine Syndrome episodes produce a deleterious effect on the character similar to the effect of chronic cocaine-and-alcohol abuse.
        You can look it up! Besides the celeryberellium The Ziocaine Syndrome effects the Gore-Tex, too, and you get soaked when it rains! Ziocaine Syndrome episodes are followed by a period of amnesia, which is why they come back and say the same dumb stuff all over again.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 26, 2015, 10:03 pm

        Now, that makes sense.
        I think you just described a Ziocaine Air Traffic Controller. Maybe he just goes off shift.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 6:15 am

        Dear Mooser, I hope you would consider a career in writing or standup comedy or both… if you don’t already do it… :) I like your wit.

      • justicewillprevail
        justicewillprevail
        July 26, 2015, 6:26 pm

        Scotland – “a pro-Palestinian stronghold”. That’s funny. Now I know you haven’t a clue what you are talking about. But in time-honoured fashion seek to denigrate where Abigail lives, as if that compromised her message, none of which you have been able to address. How the hasbrats make fools of themselves time and again.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 6:13 am

        Justicwillprevail, Ivri does have a point that there are a lot of pro-Palestinian folk in Scotland. But the Scottish National Party — SNP’s (he got the party’s acronym wrong) policy on Israel still leaves a lot to be desired. We still have a long way to go in Scotland to educate the public and to get the Scottish government to take a strong stand on Israel.

      • Shmuel
        Shmuel
        July 26, 2015, 6:44 pm

        Well, is it not true that Jews throughout their exile time, everywhere in the world, prayed day in and day out (3 times a day) – it`s right in the pray book – for their eventual return to their ancient homeland, re-establishing national sovereignty there?

        Eschatological prayers do not a 19th-century Central/East-European nationalist movement make. although such anachronistic thinking is part and parcel of Zionist ideology/propaganda.

        The time from 70 to 1897 (year of Herzl’s First Zionist Congress) is the period in which most of Jewish history, development and creativity took place, not some dead, thumb-twiddling time between Elazar ben Yair and “Yair” Stern. Don Isaac Abravanel lived at the end of one of the most remarkable periods in Jewish history (half a millennium of explosive creativity that revolutionised Judaism). To suggest (more or less) that he was actually born in the year 460 BZE (Before the Zionist Era) is a very silly joke.

      • Steve Grover
        Steve Grover
        July 26, 2015, 6:48 pm

        אביגיל אברבנל
        “I said to Maximus that I think Ivri works for the Israeli government.”
        You appear to be a victim of a Pappé smear gone bad. Sue the dude for malpractice!

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 6:10 am

        Steve Grover, :)

      • straightline
        straightline
        July 26, 2015, 8:48 pm

        @ivri – you have no idea about Scotland! First it’s the SNP not the NSP.

        Secondly the issue about Israel played no role in the elections in Britain – I realise this gets a lot attention in the Jewish and pro-Zionist press that seem to think the Jewish vote was a significant factor and that the UK election was all about Israel but the numbers don’t stack up. The real differences between Scottish and English voting patterns are to do with economic conditions in the various parts of the UK and not foreign policy (Clinton: “It’s the economy stupid”). You can see that by looking at the electoral map – Conservatives hold the affluent Home Counties and country areas. Labour holds Inner London, the (post) industrial North, West Midlands, and South Wales, SNP holds Scotland. I might add the backing for the Conservatives of the right wing, and increasingly so, MSM.

        Britain has less than 300,000 Jews in a population of 64M – less than 0.5%. Moreover those Jews are mainly concentrated in the London and to a lesser extent Manchester areas. One particular constituency with many voters who identify as Jewish, Finchley and Golders Green, was Conservative in the 2010 election. In the recent election there was a significant increase in the Conservative vote of 4.9% but an even more significant increase in the Labour vote of 6.1% (the Labour candidate was Jewish with strong ties to Israel). Another constituency with a large number of voters who identify as Jewish is Chipping Barnet. It has been Conservative since at least the 1970s and there was an 8.9% increase in the Labour vote in the recent election with a slight decrease in the Conservative vote. You might make a case for Hendon where there was a swing against Labour of about 6% but the Labour candidate Andrew Dismore has, to quote one article, “impeccable Zionist credentials”. Hertsmere had a 3.7% increase in the Labour vote and a 3.3% increase in the Conservative vote but it has been staunchly Conservative in living memory. In Thurrock it was a close race among three candidates with both the Conservatives and Labour losing considerable ground to UKIP (and if I were Jewish I wouldn’t trust them! http://www.timesofisrael.com/how-to-silence-ukips-nigel-farage/) Brentwood is another unchallengeable Conservative seat, similarly Epping Forest and South Basildon. Now we have covered probably more than half of Jewish voters in the UK.

        Next let’s consider Manchester where most of the rest of the Jewish community lives. Bury South (“bubbling hub of north Manchester Jewish life”) had a swing to Labour of 4.6% and the Labour candidate won. Salford (the other part of the Greater Manchester area with a significant Jewish population) had a swing of over 9% to Labour (which won) with another massive swing (15%) to UKIP. Other constituencies in the Manchester area have very few Jews. So no gains for Conservatives from the Jewish vote in Manchester.

        Incidentally you might ask how every party’s vote is increasing – the answer is the Lib-Dems who shot themselves in the foot by aligning themselves with the Conservatives after the 2010 election. Labour lost because of demographics and UKIP and why would any Jewish person vote for that party?

        So perhaps you might at a pinch ascribe 1 seat to the Jewish vote against Labour’s stance on Israel (Hendon) but that’s about it. The Conservatives have a majority of 10 against the combined opposition. Now you might want to discuss the Muslim vote in the UK – about 9 times as many as there are Jews and you might imagine that a strong anti-Zionist stance would win votes from them.

      • straightline
        straightline
        July 26, 2015, 11:46 pm

        I forgot a few:

        Stamford Hill – stronghold of the expanding Hasidic Community in the UK. Large swings to Labour in the constituencies covering this area:

        Hackney South: nearly 9% swing with nearly 65% of the total vote to Labour,

        Hackney North: nearly 8% swing with nearly 63% of the total vote to Labour.

        Harrow:

        Harrow West: Labour win with an increase of over 3% in total vote

        Harrow East: Was Conservative in 2010 and remained Conservative though both Lab and Con increased their vote – against Lib-Dem.

        Leeds has a Jewish community of around 6-7000 in this century – declining from the high of around 25000 in the 1930s and 40s – out of over 700000 in the metropolitan borough of Leeds. Leeds North East where many of the Jews in Leeds live had an increased Labour majority and Leeds North West was one of the few Lib-Dem seats left with a major swing towards Lab from both Con and Lib-Dem.

        There – I think I have covered every constituency in the UK where the Jewish population might just have an influence. The conclusion is that, if anything, Labour increased its vote in almost all of those constituencies in which Jews had significant numbers of voters by more than the 0.8% increase in its vote overall.

      • Shmuel
        Shmuel
        July 27, 2015, 6:12 am

        The individual isn’t really important. They are only important in so much as they are a part of the collective and help the collective survive. And if the individual questions, they are there to be shown the error of their ways so that they can be brought back to the collective to continue to play their part.

        But when you look in the mirror (like in an amusement park funhouse), all you see western individualism! When we studied fascism at my Israeli high school (a brief digression in what was essentially a Holocaust unit of study), and teacher spoke about an ideology that values the state over the individual, it never even occurred to any of us to say ‘you mean like Israel?’

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 6:22 am

        Really interesting isn’t it, Shmuel? This incredible blindness, or lack of self-awareness… I really value your contributions by the way.

        I am curious how you came to be where you are now. My email address is on my work website if you ever wished to write to me. I am interested in the personal stories of people who have come to question Zionism. Up to you if you wish to write to me. I won’t be offended if you don’t… :) Just nice to know you are there.

      • straightline
        straightline
        July 27, 2015, 7:17 am

        Sorry to harp on about the 2015 UK General Election, but I’ve done some more investigations of the demographics and voting patterns in the UK 2015 general election. I looked, fairly crudely, at what would have happened if the rest of the UK had voted as those constituencies in which there are at least 1000 Jews (and presumably about 800 of voting age – that might be on the high side. These figures are just the ones for which it is easy to find data. This document has been invaluable:

        http://legacy.london.gov.uk/gla/publications/factsandfigures/dmag-briefing-2006-27.pdf

        If indeed the rest of the UK had voted the same way as those constituencies with a “significant” Jewish population, Labour would have been able to form a government in its own right (that is without the aid of the SNP) with a decent majority.

        This runs counter to the following articles:

        http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9500222/how-ed-miliband-lost-the-jewish-vote/

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11198691/Labours-first-Jewish-leader-is-losing-the-Jewish-vote.html

        http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/election-2015-most-british-jews-will-vote-tories-david-cameron-7-may-1495282

        Or if they are correct then what they are saying is that the Jewish vote in the UK General Election was largely irrelevant. And in that case why were these articles written? Only in Hendon could there be claimed to be a result where Labour might have lost votes relative to the previous election and as I said before the Labour candidate had “impeccable Zionist credentials”. If the Conservative and Labour psephologists do their sums correctly they might start changing their stance on Israel.

      • jon s
        jon s
        July 27, 2015, 7:18 am

        I found this “story behind the photo” report:
        (the newscaster is Lucy Ahrish)

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 27, 2015, 12:15 pm

        “I like your wit.”

        Scoff if you must, my dear Ms. Abarbanel, but mark my words, one day you will see the Ziocaine Syndrome listed in the DSM. There has already been a Ziocaine Syndrome Defense in a murder trial (a bartender served a man a non-kosher drink, and he shot ’em. You think I’m kidding?). When psychology finally recognizes this affliction sufferers will be eligible for disability payments and treatment, too!

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 3:37 pm

        I wasn’t scoffing Mooser. I really do like your wit! I meant it.

      • eljay
        eljay
        July 27, 2015, 8:42 pm

        Mooser July 27, 2015, 12:15 pm
        “I like your wit.”

        || Mooser: … There has already been a Ziocaine Syndrome Defense in a murder trial (a bartender served a man a non-kosher drink, and he shot ’em. You think I’m kidding?). … ||

        I read about that. Apparently imbibing clamato is against his religion, but committing murder isn’t.

      • Danaa
        Danaa
        July 28, 2015, 7:13 pm

        straightline – thanks for that cogent analysis of the british vote. I followed it with interest and noticed the pattern of the different counties and how they voted. But you made sense of it all.

        Of course, personally I hope Scotland will eventually find the werewithal to secede. If only because it’ll drive certain people mad.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 3:24 am

        Thank you dear Danaa for your support of Scottish Independence. Alex Samond is talking about another Referendum in 2016. It’s really upsetting Westminster. :)

      • straightline
        straightline
        July 29, 2015, 2:34 am

        Thanks Danaa for your kind comments! While the SNP and secession phenomena might be seen to be about Scottish Nationalism, I think this hides a deeper truth. It is easy for Scots to say that they are different because there has been a border there for 1000 years but in reality the most important issues are economic and social ones rather than nationalist. I believe there is one Conservative MP from Scotland and so this and the previous government in no way represents people north of the border. These people have a a more society-focused rather than individual focused view of the world than those in the affluent SE (leaving aside inner London) and East Midlands. But that society-focused view is equally true of much of the North of England. Blair (in gaining Murdoch support) moved Labour to a party that is no longer representative of these groups – though they continued to vote for Labour in England faut de mieux since they had no SNP and Lib-Dem let them down by going into coalition with the Conservatives. SNP is much more society-focused than Labour. Someone very close to me who lives in the SE said that if Scotland secedes she would go and live there to get away from the right wing politics of England. The Jeremy Corbyn phenomenon seems to bear out my view. Personally I think the combined former kingdoms of Pictland, Galloway, and Northumbria should secede. It makes much more sense.

      • straightline
        straightline
        July 29, 2015, 3:36 am

        Alex Salmond always puts me in mind of the William Inge’s quote:
        “A nation is a society united by a delusion about its ancestry and by common hatred of its neighbours” or perhaps Samuel Johnson: “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”
        Nicola Sturgeon is a different kettle of fish – I could vote for her.

    • ziusudra
      ziusudra
      July 27, 2015, 4:14 am

      Greetings jon s,
      We just had a German Israeli historian on TV here in Germany quipping about the yrs. 33 to 45, one having helped wouldn’t have made a diff., but millions of Germans knowing could have….
      A.A. : I hold every….Jew who is an apologist for Israel or who supports it, complicit in Israel’s crimes……
      ziusudra
      PS Abie Nathan, come back for just a day, just an hour.

  2. a blah chick
    a blah chick
    July 25, 2015, 2:54 pm

    “When they read a story like Susiya they don’t see that it is a symptom of the wider context of settler-colonialism. They think it’s a symptom of how Israel suddenly got worse and became immoral.”

    Amen. They’ve been doing this crap for decades.

    That being said does anyone have a theory on why Susiya has gotten the attention it has? It’s just another in a long line of sad, brutal treatment that will continue unabated even if the town is spared.

    • annie
      annie
      July 25, 2015, 3:14 pm

      my hunch is because it got targeted by Regavim http://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/israel-demolish-village#comment-784243

      check out the map http://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/ocha_opt_susiya_map_may_2015_english.pdf

      note how it susiya’s land and location is preventing the illegal jewish only settlement and the “biblical” park from merging. they want the land no doubt and it is beautiful land. plus it looks like it’s close to the border.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        July 26, 2015, 6:28 am

        There is an article in Haaretz that says legal documents show the land is owned privately by PALESTINIANS. It is now a different ball game. Will the zionist criminals now stop this outrage?

        “Defense Ministry internal report: Land at village slated for demolition privately owned by Palestinians
        Civil Administration report obtained by Haaretz cites Ottoman deed, may halt planned demolitions in West Bank village of Sussia.”

    • jon s
      jon s
      July 26, 2015, 10:28 am

      Don Isaac Abarbanel is also connected to today, Tisha B’Av, since one of the catastrophes being remembered on this day is the Spanish Expulsion in 1492. It was Don Isaac’s bitter fate to be the most prominent leader of the Jews in Spain in those days.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 26, 2015, 12:10 pm

        Oy!
        The Jews in Spain,
        They felt a lot of pa-in!
        They Jews of Spain got kicked out in the rain!

        Now, once again…

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 26, 2015, 1:40 pm

        “catastrophes being remembered on this day is the Spanish Expulsion in 1492.”

        Now, now, “Jons”, it wasn’t as if there wasn’t compensation for the expulsion! Didn’t Queen Isabella give the departing Jewish Community a Royal paper saying “Don’t worry, you can take it out on the Palestinians, later!”?

      • just
        just
        July 26, 2015, 3:59 pm

        Yeah, ok.

        lol, jon s. Have you read Professor Pappé’s book?

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 26, 2015, 5:00 pm

        I guess jon is oblivious to the greatest of all catastrophies that began in 1492. If it ain’t Jewish, it ain’t got that swing.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 6:28 am

        CigarGod, sadly, an inward looking perspective was definitely a huge part of how I too was brought up in Israel. Everything was measured by whether it was good for the ‘Jews’ (us) or if it is in some way relevant to us. Otherwise it was of no particular interest.

      • tree
        tree
        July 26, 2015, 9:28 pm

        jon s

        Some critiques of Prof. Pappe:

        Two serious questions, jon s. First, have you actually read Pappe’s book, and two have you actually read the two “critiques” you posted? Because both of those critiques are incredibly sloppy themselves and as an Israeli and a fluent English speaker you should have recognized the flaws in both of them, but I’m assuming that you didn’t post them to show how ignorant the critiques were. I’m sadly assuming that you are incapable of recognizing the obvious because your own bias gets in the way.

        First off, for the Frantzman piece (second link), he can’t even get two sentences into his “critique” without an egregious error. His second sentence reads,

        He left Haifa University in 2007 after the exposure of his research errors undercut his master’s thesis and his endorsement of the British boycott of Israeli universities prompted the president of the university to call for his resignation.

        Frantzman gets the first part of this sentence totally wrong. No one exposed Pappe’s reasearch errors that “undercut his master’s thesis” because Pappe never had a master thesis. He went from a BA from Hebrew University in 1978 to a PHD from Oxford in 1984. Frantzman is confusing the Teddy Katz affair, which involved allege errors in Katz’ master thesis about what happened in the village of Tantura when the Haganah captured it in 1948. Any Israeli should know that, as the affair was front page news there in 2000, not in 2006, and although Pappe supported Katz and his thesis he had no other connection to it. Frantzman has mixed up Pappe and Katz, either purposely or out of sheer ignorance.

        Frantzman is a doctural student at Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He should know better than his obvious errors with regards to Pappe/Katz, as should you, jon. Frankly that error alone should draw into question the rest of his critique, especially since he claims a source of Haaretz for his error, when it is clearly his own.

        My suspicion would be that his Katz/Pappe error was a deliberate conflation of the two, since later in the piece Frantzman willful misrepresents the Palestine Post and its connection to Zionism, hoping to convince gullible Americans and Brits that the Palestine Post was not a Zionist house organ.

        Frantzman:

        Between 1932 and 1948, the paper, which would later change its name to The Jerusalem Post, was Mandatory Palestine’s newspaper of record. An English-language daily, it catered both to Palestine’s British administrators and the relatively small number of Jewish residents in Palestine who spoke English. It was not always sympathetic to Zionists, especially not to those who resorted to force of arms, and often sided editorially with the British against the Irgun and Stern Gang. For instance, on February 20, 1948, it headlined a story about an Irgun attack on British servicemen, “Terrorists Murder Soldier in Jerusalem.”[17] And rather than ignore the Arab population, The Palestine Post perhaps overemphasized their claims. Analysis of the newspaper’s casualty reports shows that between November 1947 and May 1948, it over-reported Arab casualties threefold when its figure of over 3,500 is compared to British Mandatory statistics.

        Far from being an unbiased observer in Palestine, the Palestine Post, as described by the National Library of Israel was

        “(a)n English-language daily established in Jerusalem in 1932 as part of a Zionist-Jewish initiative. In 1950 its name was changed to The Jerusalem Post and it continues to be published under that name to this day. The newspaper’s intended audience was English readers in Palestine and nearby regions — British Mandate officials, local Jews and Arabs, Jewish readers abroad, tourists, and Christian pilgrims. Zionist institutions considered the newspaper one of the most effective means of exerting influence on the British authorities.

        http://web.nli.org.il/sites/JPress/English/Pages/Palestine-Post.aspx

        So for Frantzman to attempt to portray the Palestine Post as an unbiased arbiter of 1948 reality is itself an indication of his own bias and attempt to color history by omission.

        And notice that Frantzman earlier emphasizes the Palestine Post’s accounting of Jewish casualties prior to May 15, 1948 as the proper “context” for the Plan Dalet and those Zionist plans that preceded it. Of course Frantzman doesn’t mention those earlier plans, nor the fact that Plan Dalet, while officially adopted in March 1948, was first fleshed out in 1946, well before any major Jewish casualties inflicted by the Palestinians. In 1946, the majority of casualties were the result of Zionist terror groups.

        Frantzman

        To take just one time period, between the U.N. General Assembly vote to partition Palestine on November 29, 1947, and Israeli independence almost six months later, Arab irregulars killed 1,256 Jews in Palestine[16]—almost all of whom were civilians.

        He uses figures from the Palestine Post to support this and claim this was necessary context for Plan Dalet, despite the fact that Plan Dalet had an earlier genesis than the period he quotes. And then, in a turnaround meant to show that the Post was overcompensating to be fair, he cites the fact that the Palestine Posts estimates of Palestinians killed in the same time period must have been exaggerated since they were 3 times larger than the British estimates for the same time period, and colors this as if it is some favor to the Palestinians to overestimate their body count. (And we all know how the US inflated Vietnamese body counts as a favor to the Vietnamese…yeah, right. ) A rational person would question why the Post’s statistics of Jewish casualties must be presumed accurate if there is at the same time a stated assumption that the Post’s statistics about Palestinian casualties were significantly overestimated. Only a person with an ingrained bias would state such an obvious contradiction.

        And the rest of his diatribe against “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” is more of the same. Frantzman omits any context if it doesn’t support his conclusions. He is guilty of the very polemic he accuses Pappe of, without foundation. I serious doubt he even read Pappe’s book.

        Note: For anyone unfamiliar with the Katz affair, here’s a good synopsis from Zalman Amit.

        http://www.counterpunch.org/2005/05/11/tantura-teddy-katz-and-haifa-university/

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 6:32 am

        Thank you so much Tree for taking the time to compose such a comprehensive response to that comment. I am grateful!

      • tree
        tree
        July 26, 2015, 10:49 pm

        And responding to your link to Benny Morris in the New Republic, its more of the same. The one with the obvious bias and sloppiness happens to be Morris. Morris is reviewing 3 books by Pappe. His shortest review is of “Ethnic Cleansing” You speak English, jon. It is your first language, if I remember correctly. How could you not see the inanity of Morris’ “explanation’ of “dazzled”.

        Morris states:

        Here is a clear and typical example—in detail, which is where the devil resides—of Pappe’s handiwork. I take this example from The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. On February 2, 1948, a young Jewish scientist named Aharon Katzir came to see David Ben-Gurion, the chairman of the Jewish Agency Executive and the leader of the Jewish community in Palestine…

        Katzir had come to report to the man managing the Jewish war effort (Ben-Gurion also held the defense portfolio in the Jewish Agency Executive) about an experiment that he and his team in the Haganah’s “science branch” had been conducting. As was his wont, Ben-Gurion jotted down in his diary what his visitor told him. (Ben-Gurion’s diary, a major source on Israeli and Middle East history, consists almost entirely of his summaries of reports by people coming to see him; very few entries actually enlighten the reader about what Ben-Gurion thought or said.) The entry reads:

        “Aharon: ‘Shimshon’ [the operation’s codename], an experiment was conducted on animals. The researchers were clothed in gas masks and suit. The suit costs 20 grush, the mask about 20 grush (all must be bought immediately). The operation [or experiment] went well. No animal died, the [animals] remained dazzled [as when a car’s headlights dazzle an oncoming driver] for 24 hours. There are some 50 kilos [of the gas]. [They] were moved to Tel Aviv. The [production] equipment is being moved here. On the laboratory level, some 20 kilos can be produced per day.”

        This is the only accessible source that exists, to the best of my knowledge, about the meeting and the gas experiment, and it is the sole source cited by Pappe for his description of the meeting and the “Shimshon” project. But this is how Pappe gives the passage in English:

        “Katzir reported to Ben-Gurion: “We are experimenting with animals. Our researchers were wearing gas masks and adequate outfit. Good results. The animals did not die (they were just blinded). We can produce 20 kilos a day of this stuff.””

        Morris then goes on to fulminate about how biased it was of Pappe to use the English word “blinded” instead of the word “dazzled” to explain the experiment. But Morris’ own translation of Ben-Gurion includes the intended explanation of the Hebrew word for”dazzled” : ” as when a car’s headlights dazzle an oncoming driver”. In English, that’s the same as saying the driver was blinded.

        daz·zle
        ˈdazəl/
        verb
        past tense: dazzled; past participle: dazzled
        (of a bright light) blind (a person) temporarily.

        So Morris acts as if this is some gross purposeful ideologically driven error on Pappe’s part because in this instance Pappe translated the Hebrew word for “dazzle” as blinded, even though its obvious from Morris’ own translation that in this instance “dazzled” and “blinded” are exact synonyms. So who exactly is being sloppy and dishonest here? Morris, of course, unless he is insisting that in this context Ben Gurion and Katzir are using the word “dazzled” in its secondary meaning, “amaze or overwhelm (someone) with a particular impressive quality”. And if that is Morris’ contention then he is an idiot as well as a racist ideologue.

        Then in the next paragraph Morris’ ugly bigotry is once again on display. I found thesestatements of his particularly racist and utterly clueless:

        Pappe’s version of this text is driven by something other than linguistic and historiographical accuracy. Published in English for the English-speaking world, where animal-lovers are legion and deliberately blinding animals would be regarded as a barbaric act, the passage, as published by Pappe, cannot fail to provoke a strong aversion to Ben-Gurion and to Israel.

        But apparently Morris doesn’t think deliberately blinding Palestinians is a barbaric act. The only problem he sees is that American animal lovers’ might develop an aversion to Ben-Gurion. I’m sure that if the gas had been used against Palestinians, as Katzir had suggested in June of 1948 but had not been done, that the IDf would have compassionately offered each Palestinian a set of dark glasses and a white cane, being as how they were so moral and all.

        And that is Morris’ one complaint mentioned about Pappe’s “Ethnic Cleansing”, even though he insists that “(s)uch distortions, large and small, characterize almost every page of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”. This particular “distortion” was “outrageous”according to Morris, so it was the only one mentioned. Color me unimpressed with Morris’ argument but “dazzled” (second meaning) by his bigotry.

        * I’d also note that Pappe refers to 3 different entries in Ben Gurion’s diary about Katzir’s experiments. Morris only relates the middle entry in February and not the one in January or the one in June where Karzir recommended employing the gas.

        If anyone would like I could go into the errors and distortions in Morris’ critique of the other two books by Pappe. Some are quite egregious misrepresentations, but I’ll save them for another time if someone is interested enough. I’ve read all three of Pappe’s books.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo
        July 27, 2015, 2:17 am

        Thank you for those two brilliant responses Tree! I seriously doubt if Jon S has read any of Ilan Pappe’s books as you have exposed. And it seems he never read his own links either. He’s not here to discuss real facts. He and those like him are only here to defend zionist/Israeli crimes using any means necessary

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 6:37 am

        Once again Tree, many thanks! It’s brilliant. Morris is considered one of the ‘new historians’, if not the first, to have exposed the truth about Israel’s history and questioned the standard narrative. However, he is a staunch Zionist and his values are very very questionable.

        I read in an interview he gave years ago that he thinks that what was done to the Palestinians was indeed terrible and ‘unfortunate’, but that it was necessary in order to save the Jewish people. That was when I thought to myself that here is a guy who knows the truth and justifies this. I don’t feel there is anything we can do about that. If someone can justify that kind of evil, then I really have nothing in common with them… I have no time at all for Morris but his views echo a significant segment of Jewish Israeli society and he still considers himself a Lefty…

      • straightline
        straightline
        July 27, 2015, 12:02 am

        Great posts tree! If I may indulge in a little pedantry, if he did his doctorate at Oxford it’s a D.Phil.

      • tree
        tree
        July 27, 2015, 12:38 am

        Thanks, straightline. I’ll defer to your greater knowledge on D.Phil and Oxford. I learn something new everyday.

        * Although I must say that D.Phil sounds too much like Dr. Phil for my taste. “Dr. Phil” is a bozo of a psychologist who has a television show on American TV. In the interest of sanity I won’t link to him.

      • ziusudra
        ziusudra
        July 27, 2015, 4:24 am

        Re.: jon s,
        …Spainish Expulsion in 1492…..
        Jews & Sarazens, Gypsies were all expelled.
        Only Jews live in your view of history.
        The Arabs allowed Jews residence in Jerusalem,
        both were expelled in 1099 by the Crusaders for 200 yrs.
        Solipcism can cause paranoia, jon.
        ziusudra

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 27, 2015, 2:43 pm

        “Jon s” don’t you see the wonderful opportunity being offered to you here, in this thread? Why, using this thread as a springboard, and doing a bit more research, and you could correct the gross errors in the Israeli-schools history syllabus! You would be the intellectual toast of Tel Aviv! The man who delivered Israeli school-kids from a manipulative and erroneous education!

        Or you could go on lying through your ass to Jewish children, it’s pretty much up to you.

      • ritzl
        ritzl
        July 27, 2015, 10:57 pm

        Top 10, all time, Mooser. ^^^ Imho.

        That really is the choice these guys face every hour of every day, isn’t it. They never seem to be able to see outside their personal mental cloister, if they try at all.

        I just can’t imagine going through life like that. It seems so doggedly uninquisitive, if not unimaginative.

        ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        But then, I suppose that’s what Ms. Abarbanel’s article is all about.

      • just
        just
        July 28, 2015, 10:29 am

        “Top 10, all time, Mooser. ^^^ Imho.”

        Absolutely, ritzl.

        (Though when I read Mooser’s “You would be the intellectual toast of Tel Aviv!”, sadly I thought yeah, he’d be toast in today’s Israel because he’d be outside of the cult and the myth and the ‘in’ crowd.)

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 28, 2015, 1:54 pm

        “You would be the intellectual toast of Tel Aviv!”

        Well, since “Jon s” says:

        In Israel there’s a rising tide of racism , xenophobia and anti-democratic tendencies, especially (though not exclusively) among the Orthodox Jews” “Jon s” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jon-s?keyword=Orthodox#sthash.7GuaPXJ3.dpuf

        he may have to be content with the cheers of the Israeli Left. He’ll be a wanking-class hero!

  3. annie
    annie
    July 25, 2015, 4:03 pm

    this “major study”, referenced in the article, by the Jewish People Policy .. has an agenda obviously. listen to what they write in their forward: pdf http://jppi.org.il/uploads/Jewish_Values_and_Israels_Use_of_Force_in_Armed_Conflict.pdf

    This is the second year the Jewish People Policy Institute has led a structured Dialogue process in Jewish communities throughout the world on topics of significance and influence on all Jews. Last year, in the framework of an Israel Ministry of Justice process and several legislative proposals, the Dialogue was conducted on the Jewish and democratic character of the State of Israel. Professor Ruth Gavison, who prepared recommendations for the Justice Minister, asked the Institute to examine Diaspora Jews’ attitudes toward Israel as a Jewish and democr….

    so jppi is leading a dialogue. they are not just there to find out what diaspora jews think. they are intending to structure the way they think. give them boxes in which to frame their thoughts. what are the chances, if asked ‘what should Israeli army strive for’ HALF the respondents would say: “strive for ‘a balance between morality and the fact that it is facing ruthless enemies who wish to destroy it’” ?

    none. they were fed lines and chose between options offered to them. see page 37, wrt the question “What level of moral conduct in armed conflict should Israel strive to maintain?” the answer “balance” has an asterisk:

    *A balance between morality and the fact that it is facing ruthless enemies who wish to destroy it.

    so their choices were

    a) highest
    b) like other countries,
    c) like western countries and
    d) balance between morality andthe fact that it is facing ruthless enemies who wish to destroy it.

    that’s just spoonfeeding propaganda.

    JPPI took upon itself a heavy and vital mission: to assist in structuring a dialogue and encouraging better mutual understanding of the aspirations, constraints, challenges and opportunities that stand before the communities and before Israel. We try to contribute to deepening the connection and helping to bridge disagreements as they arise.

    JPPI took upon itself a mission in structuring how to get jewish communities back on the path supporting israel.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 25, 2015, 7:06 pm

      If one assumes the Goy is out to kill Jews what’s next as a Jew in your thoughts? Zionism.

      • annie
        annie
        July 26, 2015, 2:56 am

        are you referencing my 2nd bolded phrasing? “the fact that it is facing ruthless enemies who wish to destroy it.”?

        this is a component of the option for “balance”, which is completely absurd. they don’t even say ‘a balanced morality when facing an enemy’. the very premise of the ‘balance’ option requires an acceptance (as ‘fact’) the opponent takes on the very characteristics the israeli military employs> ruthless, wishing to destroy the enemy — which it has been consistently doing in the ethnic cleansing of palestine. so, iow, morally wiping out the resistance. it’s an oxymoron. because under international law, as an occupying power, there is no morality in destroying the occupied. only palestine has the moral right to defend themselves from the occupying power, to resist. by definition the occupier cannot be the resistance.

        ‘when raping a victim try to find a balance between morality and the fact you are facing a ruthless woman who wishes to destroy you — her rapist.’

        that is the choice they were given — and over 1/2 chose it. over 1/2 the respondents are brainwashed — lulled by the terms “morality” and “balance”. probably from being suckled from birth on the concept of ‘most moral army in the world’ and palestinian=terrorists.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        July 26, 2015, 10:02 am

        Yep

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 26, 2015, 7:47 pm

        “If one assumes the Goy is out to kill Jews what’s next as a Jew in your thoughts? Zionism.”

        And if a person doesn’t like Jews, what better, more humane thing to do then help them go to Israel? Sure beats a pogrom.

      • NickJOCW
        NickJOCW
        July 27, 2015, 9:49 am

        Mooser, I am compelled to reiterate, ‘not liking’ is not the same as disliking, and certainly not the same has anything more virulent. This isn’t pedantry, it’s important because most everyone I know would simply shrug their shoulders if asked do they ‘like’ Jews. Your innate political rectitude may have deterred you from, ‘…if a person dislikes Jews’ which is quite another matter. You should leave space for most of us in the middle who are indifferent to Jews collectively, or any similar group of human beings, assuming there is such a thing.

    • jon s
      jon s
      July 27, 2015, 6:57 am

      No, I haven’t read Prof. Pappe’s book, just excerpts, which is why I didn’t comment on it directly. What I did was to expose the readers of this blog to some of the critiques.
      For the Palestinian narrative, I have “Palestine and the Palestinians” by S.Farsoun and C.Zacharia, and other sources.
      For the Israeli-Zionist perspective, I would recommend ” Palestine 1948: War, Escape and the Emergence of the Palestinian Refugee Problem” by Yoav Gelber.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 27, 2015, 9:02 am

        No, dude.
        You didn’t “expose” anything to us, except how clueless you are about us. I doubt there are any here who have not read the book. Maybe you should.

      • talknic
        talknic
        July 27, 2015, 9:37 am

        @ Jon s Why on earth would anyone want to read the Israeli propaganda perspective? “some of the critiques” are typical smears and distortions of people in denial trying to justify Israel’s breaches of International Law and the UN Charter

        Tell me this … why is the Israeli Government’s plea for recognition NOT available on the Israeli Government’s or any of it’s educational web sites? After all it is perhaps without doubt one of the most important documents relative to the formation of the modern state of Israel!

        I have yet to meet an Israeli who supports that state’s expansionist policies who has ever read it or even knows of it’s existence. Those who have read it, suffer massive jaw drop that’s a pleasure to behold. Those who do not change their opinion on reading it, are either denialists or propagandists,.

        You and your fellow Ziopoopers have been shown it here often enough, yet you still manage to blabber on with all manner of bullsh*t in a vain attempt to justify what has been one enormous lie perpetuated by successive Israeli Governments ON IT’S OWN CITIZENS and the rest of the world.

        Here, again for other readers ( I doubt you’re allowed ) May 15, 1948

        Letter From the Agent of the Provisional Government of Israel to the President of the United States, “MY DEAR MR. PRESIDENT: I have the honor to notify you that the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression, and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law. The Act of Independence will become effective at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time.”

        That is how Israel was recognized.

        Next, find me a valid document that shows where the Palestinians agreed to have ANY of the territory that remained of Palestine after Israel was recognized within its borders annexed to Israel. Hint, it wasn’t with Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon or Syria, they were all states before Israel became one, their borders have not changed and they are not the Palestinians.

        Then find me an Armistice Agreement or Ceasefire agreement with the Palestinians predating the 1980’s, when Jordan handed back sovereignty to the West Bank to Palestine

        Good luck buddy.

        PS. I’ll save you time …. they don’t exist!

  4. JLewisDickerson
    JLewisDickerson
    July 25, 2015, 5:27 pm

    RE: “I believe Israeli Jews feel in the depth of their bones that Israel’s existence the way it is, is illegitimate.” ~ Avigail Abarbanel

    SEE: “Is Israel a ‘Jewish Nation’? Is the US an ‘American Nation’?” ~ by Ira Chernus, CommonDreams.org, 1/31/14

    [EXCERPT] . . . All countries define themselves, Hind Khoury, a former Palestinian minister and ambassador, told Rudoren. “Why doesn’t Israel call itself at the U.N. whatever they want to call it — the Jewish whatever, Maccabean, whatever they want. Then the whole world will recognize it.” But, Khoury added, “We will never recognize Israel the way they want, I mean genuinely, from our hearts. … Why for them to feel secure do we have to deny our most recent history?”
    “For them to feel secure” — There’s the heart of the matter, as Americans should easily understand. Israeli Jews, like white Americans, have always known that their claim to the land they call their own is dubious.
    Ever since the first Europeans arrived in what would become the United States, they have paraded an endless array of papers, all claiming to be treaties signed by native peoples ceding their lands to the conquerors. “You see, we have a right to this land,” the whites proudly proclaimed. Never mind that most of the treaties were either coerced, signed by native peoples who did not understand them, or outright fraudulent. They gave at least the appearance of legal right.
    Israel has a somewhat stronger case with UN Resolution 181, passed in 1947, providing for “independent Arab and Jewish States” in Palestine. But the right of the Jews to have their own state in Palestine has still remained a matter of contention (pardon the understatement) ever since.
    Why did so many white Americans find it so important to be able to waive those pieces of paper “proving” their “legal right” to the land? Why do a sizeable majority of Israeli Jews favor the demand that Palestinians acknowledge Israel as “the nation-state of the Jewish people”? Obviously, both peoples are insecure about their right to their land. If they can get the former inhabitants to relinquish their rights, it gives the appearance, at least, that the vanquished concede to the victors a moral right to the land they have taken. . .

    ENTIRE COMMENTARY – https://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/01/31-0

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 25, 2015, 7:11 pm

      Please factor in the Nuremburg Trials. They did come at a high cost.

  5. justicewillprevail
    justicewillprevail
    July 25, 2015, 6:04 pm

    Another great article, full of conviction, clear thinking and accuracy. Thanks Abigail. No doubt the usual whiners will be along to divert and deny, but they are no match for the power of this kind of testimony. You can feel every sentence bristling with sadness and anger at the perversion and manipulation of Jewish identity for the delusional project of colonial settler politics. Bravo.

  6. bintbiba
    bintbiba
    July 25, 2015, 6:18 pm

    @ jwp, +100 multiplied

    ……..”.they are no match for the power of this kind of testimony. You can feel every sentence bristling with sadness and anger at the perversion and manipulation of Jewish identity for the delusional project of colonial settler politics. Bravo.

    Thank you, Avigail for this magnificently stated rebuttal to all the lies and deceit !

  7. talknic
    talknic
    July 25, 2015, 6:54 pm

    It’s time for Israeli Jews to realize they are being duped!

  8. JWalters
    JWalters
    July 25, 2015, 7:01 pm

    It seems to me this is one of the most brilliant articles ever written about the Israel / Palestine conflict.

    The spare facts, the depths of human nature, the lucid description, all combine into a compellingly clear snapshot of human nature in the raw.

    A forthright, anti-Zionist Jewish psychologist and therapist, she gives the most scientific picture available of the mindsets involved. Her conclusions grow from observable facts analyzed with the cleanest logic. In this way her analysis is in stark contrast with that of the Zionists, which is heavily based on myths and emotions.

    She really explains why it’s time for American Jews to realize they’ve been suckered!

  9. Citizen
    Citizen
    July 25, 2015, 7:16 pm

    the average jew in USA has a knee jerk response,which is Israel does what’s best for the jews

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 26, 2015, 12:14 pm

      “the average jew in USA has a knee jerk response,which is Israel does what’s best for the jews”

      “Citizen” as an American Jew, the fact that “Israel does what’s best for the jews” is an article of faith with me!
      Of course, when I found out which Jews Israel does what’s best for….

  10. Bornajoo
    Bornajoo
    July 25, 2015, 7:32 pm

    “@ jwp, +100 multiplied”

    Ditto Bintbiba. Well said JWP

    Many thanks for this superb article Avigail. Really excellent

  11. Stephen Shenfield
    Stephen Shenfield
    July 25, 2015, 8:18 pm

    When I was young it was quite hard to find out the truth unless you had the benefit of personal experience of events. Now, especially with the internet, there are so many sources of information that it must require a strenuous effort NOT to know (or to pretend not to know?),

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 26, 2015, 11:37 am

      @Stephen Shenfield
      No. No effort at all. In my experience, most American people, Jews included, don’t use the internet to get facts on the I-P Conflict or the US-Israel “special relationship.” Even with the Iran Deal litmus test, highlighting the fact only Israel is against the deal. I don’t see them showing more interest. And all the same people who got them into the Iraq war are now pushing very hard to kill the Iran Deal, and they are given spotlights every night on mainline TV, and their TV ads are a deluge. The media talking heads are not posing the question: Why is it that only Israel opposes the Iran Deal? Saudi Arabia does too, but Americans just think of OIL when that country is mentioned; most don’t even know SA furnished most of the 9/11 attackers. And they are not even aware of what SA is doing in Yemen. NO US leader has ever posited that SA has American values, or the “Judeo-Christian ethic.”

  12. ritzl
    ritzl
    July 25, 2015, 9:08 pm

    Another great article, Avigail.

    “Duped” is such a great word!

    • can of worms
      can of worms
      July 26, 2015, 10:29 am

      @ ““Duped” is such a great word!”

      “the schools haven’t been desegregated…this is a victory with no victory. It’s a victory that you can talk about, but it’s a victory that you can’t show me. So if you represent the NAACP and you’re telling me about this great victory you’ve won for me, when I look at you, I have to conclude that either you have been duped yourself, or else you are trying to dupe me.”
      — Malcolm X

  13. tokyobk
    tokyobk
    July 25, 2015, 10:05 pm

    Without a doubt. A many decades seduction.
    But, Israel as it is, not as we learned it, can’t stay behind the curtain.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 26, 2015, 12:17 pm

      “But, Israel as it is, not as we learned it,”

      What you mean-um “we”, pal? I remember sitting in Hebrew School thinking what a bunch of shit they were trying to force down my throat.
      And Jeez, that nonsense about “the Jewish people”.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo
        July 26, 2015, 12:38 pm

        “What you mean-um “we”, pal? I remember sitting in Hebrew School thinking what a bunch of shit they were trying to force down my throat.
        And Jeez, that nonsense about “the Jewish people”.”

        +1 Mooser! Exactly

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 26, 2015, 3:19 pm

        And I am sure that we can’t be the only two in the world who felt that way.
        I’d hate to think that the validating principle of anti-zionism is to have once been a zionist.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 3:37 am

        I admire those of you who could see things so clearly from such a young age. I kind of did and kind of didn’t. I didn’t buy what they taught us at school in Israel about being a special people or a more moral people. I was being abused at home and grew up in a very harsh, traumatic environment generated entirely by Jews. So I knew from a very young age Jews weren’t better than or more moral than others. I guess my experience was similar to that of a child who grew up in a cult and is abused but the cult teaches him that the cult is righteous and moral etc…

        But in terms of my perception of what Zionism was, I was living in Israel and was got at one way or the other. It’s a very strong pressure cooker over there and it is relentless. The indoctrination comes at you from all directions, and in many subtle and less subtle ways. The Israeli belief system is a way of life, not just something they lecture about in particular talks. So I did end up with the same belief system Israel perpetuates about itself, about Jewish identity and about the ‘Arabs’ (Palestinians was not a word used when I was growing up in Israel). It took another ten years after leaving the country in my late twenties for me to really question and even then after reading Avi Shlaim’s The Iron Wall, I still had problems coming to terms with the feelings that came up. I talk about it in my story in Beyond Tribal Loyalties.

        I don’t know what it is like to have been exposed to Zionist Hasbara elsewhere in the world. I was existing right inside it and had no other reality to compare it to. Either way to question from such a young age as you guys did, is amazing.

      • tokyobk
        tokyobk
        July 26, 2015, 7:42 pm

        Congrats on your moral purity and forwardness.

        The article is about Israel hoodwinking American Jews.

        The “we” refers to American Jews.

        Obviously.

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 26, 2015, 11:54 pm

        tokyobk,
        “Congrats on your moral purity and forwardness.
        The article is about Israel hoodwinking American Jews.
        The “we” refers to American Jews.
        Obviously.”

        I think you missed Mooser’s point which is that all Jews, including him, weren’t hoodwinked by the hasbara, which, incidentally, includes the term “the Jewish People”.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 26, 2015, 7:55 pm

        “The “we” refers to American Jews.”

        I see. So as soon as I came to the conclusion that Zionism was not the answer to the Jewish people’s problems I ceased to be a Jew?

        Ah, so that must be why an I-used-to-be-a-Zionist-until-I-learned-better story is de riguer, cause if you haven’t got that, you weren’t a Jew in the first place? Very interesting outlook, akin to the one we’ve adopted toward Bush’s War on Iraq.

        “Congrats on your moral purity and forwardness.”

        For rejecting Zionism? Please, “tyokyobk”, this is shameless flattery. It hardly took any of that to reject Zionism and I’ve never claimed, in any way shape or form, that it did.

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 27, 2015, 12:05 am

        de ri·gueur
        də riˈɡər,rēˈɡœr/
        adjective
        required by etiquette or current fashion. As in, “The proper use of the term, de rigueur requires a de rigueur focus on correct spelling.

        Certified MW grammar police person.
        (learned while googling the meaning of “de riguer”.

      • tokyobk
        tokyobk
        July 27, 2015, 3:03 am

        Ok sure you have a point Mooser which I concede. “we,” the Jews who bought the story.

        If you never did, good on you (no sarcasm).

      • ziusudra
        ziusudra
        July 27, 2015, 4:37 am

        Greetings mooser,
        ..what a bunch of shit they were trying to force dowm my throat….

        I went thro the same, but of the catholic catechism style.
        Whitewash is whitewash & both fill a botte de chambre.
        ziusudra

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 27, 2015, 12:32 pm

        “I admire those of you who could see things so clearly from such a young age.”

        No, don’t pull that! I did not see anything clearly! (Well, except maybe those terrifying sock-and-sandals! God, No!) I didn’t see anything clearly, I felt frightened, I didn’t want to be pushed into anything, it was all so apposite to everything I was learning about being, well, a Jewish American, none of it made sense, all of it contradicted what a saw around me, and the people were very aggressive and angry, and really wanted to boss me and push me around. And there was “folk-dancing”.
        I didn’t see anything “clearly”, I was a kid. Don’t pull that.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 28, 2015, 2:44 am

        Mooser, you are such a gem! You have such a spirit… :)

        I have to say I can relate to the same experience of the aggression and a kind of insistence in the delivery. It grated on me very badly. I had no ‘evidence’ to back up any opposition on my part, I just had a gut reaction against all of it. I too hated to be told what to think. In my case it was in regular classes at school (8 years of primary school and 4 years of high school that I otherwise loved) on the history of Zionism. We had dozens of ceremonies and ‘special days’ where we learned about Israel’s wars, the war of 1948 or as they called it ‘the war of independence, and holocaust memorial day. It seemed there were endless days like that throughout the year and in class we were forever rehearsing for these ceremonies.

        This continued also throughout my military service as well. They have a great many of those in the military to continue the indoctrination that starts in early childhood in kindergarten. And yes, the horrid Israeli folk dancing. Goodness. I hated it and felt guilty for hating it. Those who did it were considered the cream of the lot and the best of ‘us’… They were the quintessential Israeli Jew, the new Jew’ the one who wouldn’t go again like ‘sheep to the slaughter’… ‘There was a class mate of mine who was gorgeous and who everyone liked and I was secretly in love with him throughout high school. He only thought of me as a friend sadly for me… He used to dance really well and loved it… I wonder now what I was thinking… I just thought it was awful and I didn’t do it. But I am a singer and was always the soloist everywhere so used to sing all these Israeli nationalist folk songs. I never thought about the meaning of the lyrics. Can’t sing any of them now. I shudder to think that I used to sing them and like them…! Awful stuff.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 28, 2015, 3:56 am

        Stories like yours, must explain why the ancients felt some were called of God. The odds against you coming out of the fire with a free mind, were impossible.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 28, 2015, 4:10 am

        Thank you CigarGod!

        I think having been abused at home made me feel like an outsider anyway. It’s really hard to look at society around you in a positive light when such terrible things happen to you at home, no one sees it, or if anyone does, they do nothing about it.

        It’s easier to question maybe and not trust the mainstream around you. On one hand it’s a terrible burden on a child and it was on me. I very nearly didn’t make it. But on the other I have to wonder if it helped me know that things are not always what they seem and that bad things can happen even behind closed doors, even when people insist on maintaining an image on the outside. Maybe I could empathise with the look in the eyes of all the Palestinian labourers who were building our apartment blocks in the streets around me. Maybe I saw something familiar.

        As an adult survivor of abuse it is really easy for me to identify with other victims and certainly with the Palestinian people. I did a lot of work on this over the years and I could see that my family did not evolve in isolation. They were a part of a social context. Of course not everyone in Israel abuses their children. My parents are particularly damaged people. But you can see in them the elements of narcissism, of focus on image, of cowardice, deceit, superiority, fear and of a profound lack of compassion and empathy. Long story really.

        Not everyone makes it after a childhood like mine. I consider myself very lucky. Although I don’t believe in god the way god is seen in our main religions, I have believed my whole life that something was watching over me. After two very real suicide attempts in my youth, I knew I had to make a choice to live and have clawed my way out of the black hole I was put into.

        It’s an amazing place to be where I am now and I love the fact that as a psychotherapist I can accompany others on similar journeys. I questioned because I didn’t have a choice but to question. Questioning my reality was part of recovering personally. As I was recovering from my family trauma I also recognised that I had to recover from my societal trauma.

        Many of those who are very loyal, patriotic Zionists in Israel come from good families where they were loved and not abused. They still believe that Israel is a good country. I have a few old school friends who despite their own military service still can’t believe that the Israeli state is bad and immoral. If things don’t look good they are armed with justifications and comfort themselves that they are good to their families and children, that they are good people who have good family values…

        The last time I had contact with an old school friend that I was very fond of, quite a few years ago now, and politely tried to say what I thought (he unfriended me on FB immediately after), he told me that he believed his government knew what it was doing and that things aren’t as bad as I am portraying them. This is a very intelligent and capable man, a former officer in the Israeli airforce and I have a suspicion he is working for the Mossad. He comes from a well-to-do, very loving family. I knew them intimately and as a youngster always wished that his parents were my parents. Now, however, it seems that I am outside the cult, while he is completely sold out on it. My hellish childhood might have played a useful part in all of this after all… But I don’t wish this on anyone and the outcome isn’t always a good one. Sorry to go on here…

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 28, 2015, 4:49 am

        No, you are not going on. This is valuable stuff. I love cause and effect. While you were writing, I was doing a brush up on Edward Bernay. I like looking in other peoples toolboxes from time to time to see if I recognize what the tools are for. Probably because I would like to be able to find one that helps to get thru to friends and family…like you would, to your childhood friend.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 28, 2015, 4:56 am

        Thank you so much CG for your empathy and warmth. I don’t have a ‘tool’ to help with this I’m afraid. None of my childhood friends would have anything to do with me and neither do any members of my family except my brother and his family and there too, there is tension as my sister in-law is a committed Zionist who doesn’t question and isn’t interested in politics anyway.

        In other words, I have no advice whatsoever except to try and remain calm, and always remain compassionate regardless, while at the same time maintain firm boundaries and insist on saying what we believe. We must demonstrate by example that there is an alternative way to live in the world that isn’t about scoring points, about winning an argument and or knocking down the other person. ‘Fighting for peace’ is an oxymoron. I have always searched for a non-adversarial way to do activism, or do anything really… It seems to me, from reading your comments on this thread, that you would have no problem being this way with whomever you are relating to. So that’s my wee contribution.

        I have to sign off for now as my first client is due in less than 10 minutes. Thank you so much for being you and for your excellent participation here. You and people like you are the ones who make a difference to the world and make it all worthwhile. Until later…

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 28, 2015, 5:19 am

        Isn’t it heart breaking that we often are estranged from family. Especially, when so many people espouse the sanctity of family. In the mountain west, there are many fundamental mormons. Because polygamy is illegal, they hide their ways, there is much abuse. They use all those cult tactics you brilliantly described yesterday. Seldom is there visibility from outside, and seldom is there hope from inside. Those poor young innocents.
        Your addition…and attention to all, has been a first on mw, in my memory.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 28, 2015, 2:22 pm

        Thank you CigarGod and like I said to Ritzl, it is a privilege.

        Indeed it is so sad about families. Many of the clients I worked with have been let down by the very people that were supposed to love and protect them. We do expect and need so much from our primary caregivers and it can destroy lives when they are the ones committing neglect or worse. So I am not starry eyed about families. I think they have to prove themselves. It’s wonderful to encounter people who have grown up in good families with parents who truly loved them. I never had that. My clinical supervisor Annette who is also a mentor to me and a mother figure, always says that if your family can’t give you what you need, find others who will. So thank you CG and everyone for being a good family here.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 27, 2015, 12:34 pm

        “weren’t hoodwinked by the hasbara,”

        Look, the US army was set on drafting me, and people were telling me I should go join the IDF. I simply didn’t want to die a virgin! Of course, I’ve accepted my fate by now.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 27, 2015, 12:47 pm

        Well, I knew a guy, once, who corrected my spelling. He ended up with de rigueur mortice, and tenonitis of the elbow.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        July 28, 2015, 2:50 am

        @ Avigail Abarbanel

        “4 years of high school that I otherwise loved”

        Only 4? I loved it so much I stayed for a decade

        (I thoroughly enjoyed your article but as I was late to respond I felt it was piling on until I had a suitable opening to justify it. thank you/)

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 28, 2015, 3:57 am

        Thanks Oldgeezer. I appreciate it. :)

      • just
        just
        July 28, 2015, 8:29 am

        CG & Avigail~ thank you both so much for your comments and sharing this morning. It has moved me, and confirmed to me the humanity and hope that is so prevalent here and elsewhere.

        I can only say how grateful I am. It says a lot that there are 312 comments on this thread, and is a testament to you, Avigail, and the deep need that so many have to have this kind of discussion. Thank you for your insights and for your kind and involved attention to the discussion, Avigail. You’ve contributed so much to so many here at MW.

        @ CG: “Isn’t it heart breaking that we often are estranged from family. Especially, when so many people espouse the sanctity of family.”

        A resounding yes!

        That goes for the ‘human family’, too. I often find it curious and profoundly sad that people look to the differences rather than the similarities that we share.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 28, 2015, 8:57 am

        Thank you, Just.
        Avigail has been an amazingly helpful addition, hasn’t she?

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 28, 2015, 1:41 pm

        And I am grateful for your presence here Just, your kind words and your contributions!

      • just
        just
        July 28, 2015, 9:10 am

        “Avigail has been an amazingly helpful addition, hasn’t she?”

        Oh yes! She has a wonderful spirit, energy, and generosity~ a real inspiration and example.

        Thank you, CG, and you’re welcome :-)) You inspire me as well!

      • just
        just
        July 28, 2015, 1:53 pm

        ;-) @ Avigail @ 1:41pm

        I can’t stop coming back to your articles! I have shared them with many. I guess you’ve inadvertently extended your ‘office’ hours!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 28, 2015, 2:15 pm

        “I have to say I can relate to the same experience of the aggression and a kind of insistence in the delivery. It grated on me very badly. I had no ‘evidence’ to back up any opposition on my part, I just had a gut reaction against all of it.”

        But you of course, were in Israel, and resisting Zionist indoctrination growing up in Israel and all the rest, or throwing it off later in life would be, I’m sure, a much, much many, many times more difficult task than it is for a shaigetz ainer like me out on the Island. I never forget that. I’ve got no corner on character strength, who knows how I would have turned out had I been raised there. Like you said, a pressure cooker, where all I got was a little steam off the chicken soup. I wasn’t worth the trouble of keeping within the Zionist fold, really, which might have been my saving disgrace. Go, little Shonda, go! First gear, well all right…

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 28, 2015, 2:34 pm

        Thank you Mooser, that is such a lovely comment! I have a feeling you are the kind of person that doesn’t suffer fools gladly. I can imagine you getting really pissed off in some of the classes I sat through and can see you rebelling against it all. I think you would have ended up a questioning, doubting activist one way or the other.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 28, 2015, 4:08 pm

        “I have a feeling you are the kind of person that doesn’t suffer fools gladly.”

        Oh, no. On the contrary, I’m actually pretty comfortable with myself.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 3:36 am

        I just love it Mooser how you and a few others on this thread lighten the mood with intelligent humour. You’re great mate.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        July 28, 2015, 7:24 pm

        “my saving disgrace”

        Oscar: I wish I’d said that.
        Whistler: You will, Oscar, you will.

        Yes, I’m stealing it. Sue.

  14. John Douglas
    John Douglas
    July 25, 2015, 10:35 pm

    Avigail Abarbanel has a powerful voice for reason and for justice. I am grateful for her efforts. Against my better judgment I am optimistic about Palestine/Israel when I read her.

  15. Hello
    Hello
    July 25, 2015, 11:17 pm

    “Not everyone in Israel is a psychopath.”
    But many Israeli people are psychopaths. Thank you for validating this point.

    • annie
      annie
      July 26, 2015, 12:04 am

      thanks for highlighting that hello. i think i asked abigail something about that previously in an earlier comment section and i forgot to check if she ever responded.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        July 26, 2015, 11:42 am

        Annie, we here would love for you to get a response from Abigail. She’s educated, empathetic, professionally applicable, and she has mental and ethical/moral integrity. Maybe she has some insight into the character captured in Max Blumenthal’s Goliath.

  16. aiman
    aiman
    July 25, 2015, 11:29 pm

    Universal, no-gallivanting and much needed reality check. Thanks Avigail for another superb article.

  17. MRW
    MRW
    July 25, 2015, 11:37 pm

    @Avigail,

    This fellow Jew agrees with you. It should interest you. His bonafides are at the top of the hour. it is more than the title. Feb., 2015.
    Jeff Gates – How the Israel Lobby Took Control of U.S. Foreign Policy and Public Opinion
    http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2015/02/RIR-150213.php

  18. DoubleStandard
    DoubleStandard
    July 26, 2015, 12:01 am

    Wow. You acquire citizenship in a country that faces no threats, abandon your birthplace, and then compose screeds slandering your homeland to anyone who will listen.

    Aren’t you brave, Avigail?

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      July 26, 2015, 1:26 am

      Sure, she is exceptionally brave –if nothing else it’s enough to consider that you may be representative of the people in the Zionist entity.

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      July 26, 2015, 2:23 am

      Double Standards believes the wife of an abusive husband who is sexually violating the children, is obliged to stay in the relationship and keep her mouth shut.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 26, 2015, 3:31 am

        Good morning Shingo, this is a perfect analogy. Thank you.

      • justicewillprevail
        justicewillprevail
        July 29, 2015, 2:56 pm

        Yes, DS, Avigail must be suspect because she speaks good English. What are you snidely implying? Perhaps you are not familiar with the concept of intelligence. It appears that way.
        As for the keep it hush-hush nonsense, what a desperate ploy. There is no Jewish ‘tribe’, just people who happen to be Jewish. So who is this cabal that you insist Avigail is beholden to? Should the truth about the horrendous injustice in Israel be smothered in order to keep the world from knowing about it, as you imply? Or is it to keep it from non-Israelis, many of whom are Jewish, and even Israelis themselves? All you are doing is illustrating Avigail’s thesis about the cult mentality. and its desperate need to maintain the illusory support system it is struggling to hold together.

    • Avigail
      Avigail
      July 26, 2015, 3:11 am

      Good morning DoubleStandard. Thank you for your comment. So what you’re saying is that I must remain loyal no matter what. I get your point. In fact I grew up with it.

      Can I please ask that you address the issue of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine? If you do not, and your tactic continues to be to attack me personally instead of listening to what I actually say, then sadly you’re just proving me right. It’s not too late for Israel to begin to redeem itself if the will, the compassion and the courage were there. I wish I could gloat in the fact that you’re proving me right. But I can’t. It just make me sad. I wish you well.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 26, 2015, 8:34 am

        Double Standard should wonder…if his position had the favor of his God, why doesn’t his God help him in crafting a winning rebuttal?

        Instead, the God of Deflection is the only God that ever comes to his aid.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        July 26, 2015, 11:51 am

        I guess the aptly self-named DoubleStandard is just doing his duty, following orders. I don’t think they allowed that defense at the Nuremberg Trials.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 5:32 am

        Good morning Citizen,

        I have just responded to Double Standard. Am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt for a little while longer, that he really doesn’t know. Many Jewish Israelis and Jewish supporters of Israel don’t know the history. They also tend to stay away from anything that can shatter their preexisting belief system and thus cause them a massive identity crisis.

        Zionist indoctrination especially in Israel, isn’t like learning about something. It’s a way of shaping the person’s very identity to the point when it becomes inseparable from the identity of the group. It’s why I have been calling it a cult. That’s what cults do. They require individuals to let go of their individuality and submit themselves to the task of group survival. It’s because of this that facing the truth about Israel is such a big deal to anyone brought up in the cult. It’s their very identity that is being questioned, when they face new information that contradicts the cult’s teachings. It feels like their whole world is crumbling. It’s not merely a process of replacing one set of facts with another when there isn’t that much at stake. I went through the same process myself.

        My partner Brendan (sorry guys… my heart is taken already ;) ), says that it doesn’t matter if you didn’t know. What matters is what you do when you find out.

        One of the ways to avoid the dilemma of course is for people to shield themselves from knowledge and facts that contradict what they believe and what they think they know. It’s a really tough one. Either way we don’t have time for Israel to get a clue. Pressure from outside is the way to go I believe.

      • DoubleStandard
        DoubleStandard
        July 26, 2015, 12:01 pm

        You don’t have to live in Israel. It’s obviously your choice where to live. But you also don’t need to write pieces defaming it.

        “It’s not too late for Israel to begin to redeem itself if the will, the compassion and the courage were there. ”

        In your piece you implied that the foundation of Israel is violent and illegitimate, therefore the state can never be normal.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 26, 2015, 12:41 pm

        Israel “defames” itself.
        Avigail simply reports it.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 5:19 am

        Good morning Double Standard,

        “In your piece you implied that the foundation of Israel is violent and illegitimate, therefore the state can never be normal.”

        I am not implying. I am saying outright! Let’s be clear.

        As for defaming? If I point out to a crime that a criminal committed, does that mean I am defaming him or her?

        Israel is a settler-colonial state that started its existence through the ethnic cleansing of around 750,000 Palestinians in 1947-1948. Ever since then, Israel has been continuing its settler-colonial project and is actively ethnically cleansing the Palestinians as we speak. The Occupation of the West Bank and the treatment of Gaza need to be seen in the context of this settler-colonialism.

        You haven’t heard of that? That’s why I am suggesting to American Jews, and basically to anyone who still supports the state of Israel, to read Ilan Pappé’s The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. And this is just one out of many books that reveal the history of the so-called conflict. Maybe you really don’t know Israel’s history… Oh dear…

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 27, 2015, 8:33 am

        “Oh, dear”, is right.
        There are aspects of these commenters development, that seem so stunted. Very often their comments have the ring of adolescents or at the most high schoolers. But, once in awhile they reveal their age. They are in their supposed golden years…but their minds are still trapped in an early childhood stage. It is all so tragic. A tragic waste.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 26, 2015, 1:57 pm

        “Can I please ask that you address….”

        Yes, maybe Double Standard can make clear (which he refuses to do) what his address is, where he lives. Probably, he’s an American who wants to see Israel march off a cliff for his amusement.

      • eljay
        eljay
        July 27, 2015, 8:39 am

        || DoubleStandard: … In your piece you implied that the foundation of Israel is violent and illegitimate … ||

        That’s because it was.

        || … therefore the state can never be normal. ||

        IMO, Israel can be a normal state – a secular and democratic state of and for all of its Israeli citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally.

        Unfortunately, Israel – to the delight of Zio-supremacists – shows no sign of wanting to be anything other than an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and religion-supremacist “Jewish State” – a state primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 27, 2015, 2:56 pm

        “You don’t have to live in Israel.”

        Who does? No, I’m serious. Who are the Israelis that can’t go anywhere else, the ones that have a life-and-death stake in solving Israel’s problems? Why is Israel ruled by people with weird ideological and political agendas, all of whom can simply split if Israel doesn’t meet their expectations, or if they make Israel too hot to hold them.
        I never have gotten that straight. Who, in the last estimation, cannot leave “Israel”?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        July 27, 2015, 11:25 pm

        Who, in the last estimation, cannot leave “Israel”?

        OK, I’ll open the guessing game.
        The Palestinians.
        Anyone else?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 28, 2015, 2:46 pm

        “Anyone else?”

        I don’t know. I know, of course, that people in Israel and the areas illegally occupied by Zionists who have those dual-passport things can get out, but I’m not sure about how it filters down.

      • DoubleStandard
        DoubleStandard
        July 28, 2015, 7:27 pm

        My complaint is not that she moved to Australia/UK. If she didn’t like Israel, then she can leave. B’simcha.

        I just think that it really is something to leave your country and then go around agitating for it to be dissolved. It’s disgraceful to do that if you live there, but when you have indemnified yourself against the consequences…that’s just plain cowardly.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 3:18 am

        So DoubleStandard,

        “My complaint is not that she moved to Australia/UK. If she didn’t like Israel, then she can leave. B’simcha.

        I just think that it really is something to leave your country and then go around agitating for it to be dissolved. It’s disgraceful to do that if you live there, but when you have indemnified yourself against the consequences…that’s just plain cowardly.”

        So what you are saying is this: A person got away from a family that commits crimes say, like child abuse, and has left the family for their own safety. Now that they left, they shouldn’t say anything to anyone about the family even though the family continues to abuse other victims… I am absolutely baffled by how you can put your loyalty to the tribe ahead of morality? This is really strange, unless you don’t know that your tribe is not only committing horrendous crimes, but is itself a crime. I want to get this straight, you are a person who puts loyalty to your group ahead of morality. I think my conversation with you is over right now. Be well DoubleStandard and take care.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo
        July 29, 2015, 3:40 am

        “… I am absolutely baffled by how you can put your loyalty to the tribe ahead of morality?”

        Hi Avigail. I think that the values of morality and justice (if they exist at all) are only applicable within the tribe. They are not extended universally. Does that make sense?

        Thanks so much for all of the incredible energy you have put into this thread as well as your other recent one. Incredible!

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 4:30 am

        Thank you so much Bornajoo, it is such a pleasure to interact with such incredible people

        (Quickly, can you hand over a sickness bag to Irishmoses please?)

        Yes, I am aware that morality is only limited to those within the group. That was basically the framework I grew up with. In a way my sense of morality expanding to the world outside the group is at the heart of my recovery from the cult psychology I was brought up to have.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 29, 2015, 9:14 am

        I’m still exploring the implications of the Christian wisdom: To love one another.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 29, 2015, 8:51 am

        Then make your case.
        You have not stated your case.
        Do you know how to make one?

      • DoubleStandard
        DoubleStandard
        July 29, 2015, 12:13 pm

        For Abigail: how do you know English so naturally?

        Most Israelis know a fair amount of English, but yours is extremely proper for someone who didn’t learn it as a first language.

        I don’t think that you should hold your ideas in and not discuss your experiences in Israel. But you should write them in Hebrew for Israelis to read. I’m sure you’ve heard of Sicha Mekomit.

        I think it is wrong to be a “moser” and jump to tell the West about what a unique cesspool of morality the Jewish state is. Even if you think it, there is something valuable in sticking up for the tribe.

        I don’t think tribal loyalty trumps moral conscience. But you can keep that moral conscience by trying to call attention to Israel’s moral shortcomings among Israelis. Not by “going over their heads” to the bosses in the US and Europe.

        My goal isn’t to insult you or stoop to the petty level of calling you a “traitor.” I don’t want you to take it that way. I’m more sad and disappointed than angry to see an Israeli describe her country as uniquely deserving of destruction.

        It just seems to me that you have some psychological need for acceptance and affection from non-Jewish world. You sneer derogatorily at the “Jewish ghetto,” but there is a reason that this Jewish ghetto was created.
        The world hasn’t always been *so* accepting of Jews. It is historical shortsightedness to think that our gains from this newfound tolerance-culture are necessarily permanent. Things can change.

        The non-Jewish world has always been happy to listen to Jews report on how evil their fellow Jews are. It’s just a shame to see people reviving this historical phenomenon in the 21st century.

      • annie
        annie
        July 29, 2015, 2:18 pm

        The non-Jewish world has always been happy to listen to Jews report on how evil their fellow Jews are. It’s just a shame to see people reviving this historical phenomenon in the 21st century.

        i don’t think she wrote it for the non jewish world per se. lots of diaspora jews don’t speak hebrew.

        you should write them in Hebrew for Israelis….you can keep that moral conscience by trying to call attention to Israel’s moral shortcomings among Israelis…My goal isn’t to insult you or stoop to the petty level of calling you a “traitor.”

        it’s fairly clear what your goal is, to keep all this info hush hush. what about dispora jews? are they only supposed to support israel and see the birthright israel? and what about non jews, shouldn’t we know what our congress people are supporting and what our tax dollar is funding?

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 29, 2015, 3:03 pm

        BS, DS!
        This isn’t about Jews, it’s about Zionist’s.
        The very way you frame your appeal betrays what you really want…to keep the vicious, racist zionists deep in the fold.
        You don’t want to change anything. You don’t want anyone to do any housekeeping.
        Jews cleaning house is the most loyal a Jew can be.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 29, 2015, 1:43 pm

        “I am absolutely baffled by how you can put your loyalty to the tribe ahead of morality?”

        Oh, please, Double Standard’s only loyalty is to his own pretensions. Those, he will never betray!

      • DoubleStandard
        DoubleStandard
        July 29, 2015, 4:23 pm

        Abigail asked me to respond to the history of the founding of Israel. So here:

        I am familiar with the whole “ethnic cleansing” argument. I buy parts of it, parts of it I do not. The evidence is conflicting, and it seems likely to me that in some cases yes, the Zionist founders expelled segments of Palestine’s Arab population. Ilan Pappe is an extremist, fanatic anti-Zionist whose work does not merit discussion. He is not motivated by the desire for historical truth but by a zealous impulse to disconnect himself from his people.

        I regret that it happened, and think that compensation to those who lost property is in order. I would also support a right of return for those 1948 refugees who are still alive.

        That being said, other countries have been founded through violence and dispossession far more severe than that perpetrated by the Zionist visionaries. Do you not see the rich irony in leaving Israel to go to Australia? How exactly do you think Australia became 95% European?

        That doesn’t mean Australia isn’t a normal country. Israel is not abnormal either. Its circumstances are abnormal not because of the “original sin,” but because we brilliant Jews chose to a establish a state between the peaceful states of Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan. I think you discount how much theological opposition there is among Arabs to the state of Israel, independent of the Palestine question.

        Israel is a necessary historical justice, and the injustice that was required to create it does not undermine its fundamental claim to legitimacy. There are ways to make amends for 1948 without fundamental reconceptualization of Israel (i.e. making it a one-state of all its citizens).

        I think that Israelis should try to be more conscious of defining historical events like Deir Yassin and Lydda, the way Americans are aware of the Trail of Tears. But Israelis are sensitive to these issues because they are generally exploited by far-left extremists to deny the state its right to exist. It is more comfortable to deny your own shortcomings when there are so many people who think you have no right to exist.

        I look forward to a response.

      • annie
        annie
        July 29, 2015, 6:24 pm

        Its circumstances are abnormal … because we brilliant Jews chose to a establish a state between the peaceful states of Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan. I think you discount how much theological opposition there is among Arabs to the state of Israel

        so had it not been palestine, what alternate population and alternate surrounding region would have been ok with the nakba in 1948 – present? or are you suggesting had the neighbors been ‘friendly’ – zionists swooping in and ethnically cleansing some other place would have been a done deal by now and everyone would have been fine with it?

        The evidence is conflicting, and it seems likely to me that in some cases yes, the Zionist founders expelled segments of Palestine’s Arab population

        nakba denial is a banning offense here. so an extending or more extensive argument whitewashing zionist crimes won’t likely be published and might lead to your banning. i’d suggest, in answering my question, not arguing in support of the passage above.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        July 29, 2015, 5:23 pm

        ‘Jews pointing out the evil behaviour of other Jews’ is a major Biblical, prophetic theme., as Marc Ellis could remind us. Some may say that this theme has encouraged non-Jews to be a anti-Semitic but it is much more Importamt to my mind that it has made many people admire, even if they do not entirely share the moral position from which the prophets speak – the self-critical, morally objective tone that these denunciations have imparted to Hebrew literature. Avigail rather beautifully combines the style of prophet and therapist.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 29, 2015, 5:44 pm

        Well put!

      • eljay
        eljay
        July 29, 2015, 6:40 pm

        || DoubleStandard: … Israel is a necessary historical justice, and the injustice that was required to create it does not undermine its fundamental claim to legitimacy. … ||

        Israel was not, is not and never will be a “necessary historical justice”.

        The establishment of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in Palestine was an act of gross injustice and immorality. For almost 70 years and with impunity, the “Jewish State” has continued to commit acts of gross injustice and immorality. The state and its Zio-supremacist enablers have yet to be held accountable.

        The only legitimacy Israel has is that it exists and its existence has been accepted by the world. It does not have and should never have any legitimacy as an oppressive state, a colonialist state, an expansionist state or a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

      • just
        just
        July 29, 2015, 6:59 pm

        DS~ you seem so angry at Avigail. You resent her telling her truths here, and then you go even further and too far in too many ways.

        Perhaps you are in need of some therapy in your native tongue. Or some kumbaya. I also think that your tribe is your identity and that you feel threatened and scared. I’m sorry for you.

        pssst~ there’s nothing about Israel or Zionism that Israelis and Zionists haven’t already exposed themselves.

        It’s no secret.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        July 29, 2015, 7:10 pm

        “The non-Jewish world has always been happy to listen to Jews report on how evil their fellow Jews are. It’s just a shame to see people reviving this historical phenomenon in the 21st century.”

        If the fellow Jews stopped being evil there would be nothing to report, and the phenomenon would not be revived.

      • Kris
        Kris
        July 29, 2015, 9:17 pm

        @DoubleStandard:

        Israel is a necessary historical justice, and the injustice that was required to create it does not undermine its fundamental claim to legitimacy. There are ways to make amends for 1948 without fundamental reconceptualization of Israel (i.e. making it a one-state of all its citizens).

        Are you kidding, DoubleStandard? Israel is “a necessary historical justice”?

        (Twice in the past day or so, I have failed to recognize a commenter’s sarcasm, so I just want to make sure you aren’t joking.)

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 29, 2015, 10:27 pm

        You dont have to hesitate, Kris. DS thinks anything is justified in service to The Cause.

        I’m just wondering…in the entire history of MW, has one of them ever seen the light?

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      Maximus Decimus Meridius
      July 26, 2015, 10:43 am

      “You acquire citizenship in a country that faces no threats”

      Sorry, but isn’t it normal that somebody who lives in what is supposedly a warzone, facing ‘existential threats’, would move to a safer country if the possibility exists? How many Iraqis would stay in their ‘homeland’ if they could move to the UK or Australia, for example?

      It’s amusing to see how hasbarists change the narrative to suit the prevailing propaganda need. When they need to show how ‘antisemitic’ the ‘West’ is, the ‘Jewish state’ is portrayed as a haven of security. On the other hand, when they want to justify their indiscriminate bombing of civilians, Israel is cowering under a ‘barrage’ of rockets’, facing ‘existential threats’ on all sides.

      So which is it today?

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 26, 2015, 11:39 am

        Hi MaximusDecimusMeridius, thanks for your comment. You are absolutely right of course. And I think you might just be onto something. I think Ivri might be working for the Israeli government. His tone is so familiar to me…

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius
        July 26, 2015, 11:52 am

        Don’t you find most hasbarists sound identical to one another? They’re all pretty interchangable to me. I guess that these days, the arguments they have are so few, and so poor, that they all cling to whatever they have. They all kind of blend into one hasbarist sludge.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 26, 2015, 11:55 am

        Maxiums, I don’t think they have a leg to stand on. It’s the flat Earth society all over again…

      • John O
        John O
        July 26, 2015, 12:12 pm

        “Don’t you find most hasbarists sound identical to one another?”

        They do here. Over at the Guardian you get an amusing variety of hasbarista talking points, like the one the other day who claimed that there were four times as many Palestinian illegal immigrants working illegally in Israel as there were Israeli settlers in the West Bank. I pointed out to him/her that the security wall didn’t seem to be doing a very good job in that case.

      • DoubleStandard
        DoubleStandard
        July 26, 2015, 4:10 pm

        That is the paradox of the Israeli condition. Unassailably strong but on the brink of elimination.

        It is a paradox, but not a contradiction.

      • justicewillprevail
        justicewillprevail
        July 26, 2015, 6:15 pm

        It’s neither a paradox nor a contradiction. It’s just you wallowing in your insufferable sense of victimhood combined with an arrogant belief in your superiority. Or, ” pity us, we are the worlds victims, and if you don’t agree and let us have our own way we will attack you viciously”. It’s the reflex tantrum of a bully.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 3:38 am

        If there was a Like button on Mondo, I’d be pressing it now…

      • bintbiba
        bintbiba
        July 27, 2015, 11:41 am

        CigarGod July 27, 2015, 8:33 am
        [ “Oh, dear”, is right.
        There are aspects of these commenters development, that seem so stunted. Very often their comments have the ring of adolescents or at the most high schoolers. But, once in awhile they reveal their age. They are in their supposed golden years…but their minds are still trapped in an early childhood stage. It is all so tragic. A tragic waste.]

        CigarGod,

        Such a great observation .
        Thank you.

    • SQ Debris
      SQ Debris
      July 26, 2015, 9:27 pm

      There goes DoubleStandard, dancing around the gunmetal calf again.

      • bintbiba
        bintbiba
        July 27, 2015, 4:42 am

        @jwp

        “It’s neither a paradox nor a contradiction. It’s just you wallowing in your insufferable sense of victimhood combined with an arrogant belief in your superiority. Or, ” pity us, we are the worlds victims, and if you don’t agree and let us have our own way we will attack you viciously”. It’s the reflex tantrum of a bully. ”

        jwp ,

        Brilliant ! You put the whole situation (problem) (tragedy) in a nutshell !

    • talknic
      talknic
      July 27, 2015, 10:36 am

      @ DoubleStandard “Wow. You acquire citizenship in a country that faces no threats, abandon your birthplace, and then compose screeds slandering your homeland to anyone who will listen”

      You talking about the exodus? Tell me how come there were any Jews left in Palestine by 1987, when the Zionist colonization program got under way? Tell how come in the early 1800’s Jews could and did migrate to Palestine, gained legal citizenship, bought land and settled?

      Tell me why Herzl, who could have done the same in his lifetime, didn’t? Nor did his family!

      • talknic
        talknic
        July 27, 2015, 11:30 am

        (correction) by 1897, when the Zionist colonization program got under way?

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 27, 2015, 8:41 pm

      “Wow. You acquire citizenship in a country that faces no threats, abandon your birthplace,”

      C’mon DS, are you trying to embarrass “Jon s”?

  19. echinococcus
    echinococcus
    July 26, 2015, 2:07 am

    I will not trust American Jews and their supposed left-liberal values until I see intellectual honesty

    No can do. To the last minute, intellectual honesty will remain limited to very few among them –like Abarbanel herself– and the additional few who never in their life considered themselves in any way part of the tribe. In fact, Avigail is the one who knows and can explain why it is so.

    • Avigail
      Avigail
      July 26, 2015, 3:13 am

      I still hope you’re wrong echinococcus :)

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        July 26, 2015, 11:54 am

        So what will Schumer, shomer, decide to do? Any bets?

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo
        July 26, 2015, 12:47 pm

        “So what will Schumer, shomer, decide to do? Any bets?”

        I’m praying and hoping they all vote against and the deal is defeated. It will be another huge nail in the coffin of the Zionist enterprise. Just as it was beneficial to have Netanyahu/likud reelected this will be even more effective in changing world opinion

        Please defeat the bill!

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 26, 2015, 12:25 pm

      ” To the last minute, intellectual honesty will remain limited to very few among them”

      Oh, ye of little faith! Don’t count on their “intellectual honesty”! Count on their self-interest!.

  20. can of worms
    can of worms
    July 26, 2015, 2:08 am

    I am less enthusiastic: It’s time for American Jews to see they’ve been duped. It’s been “time” to see that for decades — people have either been “duped”, or they were cynically pursuing their interests despite not being “duped”… or, what I think, they are actually “duped” not by hasbara per se, as much as their own desires.

    People are “duped” by their own desires, not primarily by their lack of information (although to be sure the internet puts some stop on being “duped” by lack of information.) Some are “duped” by their desire to protect material investments in Israel, mainly in the form of businesses or links to family who are economically vested. But I’ve come to the conclusion that what many American Jewish Zionists –people who would never, ever move to Israel— are “duped” by is the desire, the fantasy, wherein some abstraction of themselves (ancestral “Judaism”?) can be preserved for them in a jar… And that’s because Israel is the only place where ‘Jews’ exist without culturally/racially mixing.
    It’s yet another feedback loop: since Israel gives people economic advantages to ensure that there is no mixing, American Zios support Israel financially. They are “duped” by their own race/class desires.

    This is being “duped” in every sense of the word, because i don’t even think they see it as such. I suspect American Zios who would hate to move to Israel — (from yonah fredman to Peter Beinart) — desire a racially unmixed bubble. And so institutionalized crime is — simply– worth it.

    RE: Israelis “feel in the depth of their bones” that israel’s existence is illegitimate. So what? I feel I know liberal Jewish Israelis like the back of my hand, and, when pushed, they’d choose a Jewish State over a democratic state, and be upfront about not caring if the means to a Jewish State are “illegitimate”.
    Again, it’s more than being “duped” by hasbara, it’s being “duped” by your own desires, in the case of well-informed liberal israelis it’s just as banal as real estate.

    As Annie points out, the jppi study, and the Times of Israel article that references it, are strategies of Israeli damage control– but the damagehas been to ignorance only. The underlying racial and class desires seem to be intact and undamaged.

    Lastly, reading Ilan Pappe is well&good, but Israelis should come over to Palestinian thinkers.

    • Avigail
      Avigail
      July 26, 2015, 3:15 am

      Hi again can of worms, :) I agree. There is the system that does the duping and there’s the ‘dupee’. I never said that the dupee is free from responsibility here…

      I couldn’t agree more about Israelis reading Palestinian writers. But maybe if they start with Ilan who was once one of them and speaks their language, they will become more ready to face what the Palestinians have to say. But in principle I agree with you completely.

      • can of worms
        can of worms
        July 26, 2015, 10:14 am

        Glad. Though, I don’t know if I agree with me exactly — it doesn’t matter. I want to start afresh. There is much enthusiasm here, and it has me on high alert. (Truthfully, I’ve been on alert ever since the ‘trauma’ explanation for Zionist racism, which always seemed to me a piece of Israeli self-duping on its own.) Maybe this article has it too easy. As you say it’s very “validating” to be told that Israel is losing the support of American Jews, or a to be told that Zionists can’t be forever blind to the horrors of Palestine-Israel. Maybe it’s true–

        but as far as I’m concerned, a colonial ‘psychology’ is determined by specific material and spatial structures that are given to analysis, and that can be changed. And the time is really urgent.

        When you get down to the real nitty gritty, what are you suggesting to be done to enact change? What’s the vision? Are you in favor of waiting until Hophmi or Yonah (who is quite the liberal) ‘wake up’ to do a new accounting. Most important, how far will you be willing to go to change the status quo? Would you support a bloody revolution in Israel if it came to that? Would you implement desegregation? what?

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo
        July 26, 2015, 5:21 pm

        “When you get down to the real nitty gritty, what are you suggesting to be done to enact change? What’s the vision? Are you in favor of waiting until Hophmi or Yonah (who is quite the liberal) ‘wake up’ to do a new accounting. Most important, how far will you be willing to go to change the status quo? Would you support a bloody revolution in Israel if it came to that? Would you implement desegregation? what?”

        As much as I yearn to see the end of this ongoing holocaust, of this wretched occupation and of this policy of structural segregation, I personally cannot support anything like a “bloody revolution”, Can Of Worms. I would never advocate for that or encourage that, not in THIS situation because that’s exactly what the Zionists are hoping for. In my opinion they will do anything to eliminate the “demographic time bomb”. If the Palestinians organised their own million man march there would be 1 million bullets waiting for them and they would murder that million in cold blood and tell us it was justifiable self defence, just like they did when they murdered thousands of civilians in Gaza on 3 occasions. Just like they murdered a father on his own balcony a couple of days ago who was calling for an ambulance for his son who they also injured. They’ve shown us how far gone they are and how psychopathically dangerous they are and I firmly believe it will not be a Berlin Wall moment, it will be a bloodbath. It’s what they want. They must not be given that opportunity

        I’m my opinion the only possible way out of this is through non violent methods. Although it’s frustratingly slow, it is working. As the Palestinian cause gains more attention the Zionist project is simultaneously tearing itself apart from within.

        My own fear is that they will try and do something incredibly evil in desperation on the way down. They may attempt a mass expulsion. I’m hoping the Zionist enterprise will fall before they get a chance to do it.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 6:05 am

        I have the same fear Bornajoo. Hope you are well.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 26, 2015, 12:29 pm

        “There is the system that does the duping and there’s the ‘dupee’. I never said that the dupee is free from responsibility here… “

        A “system”, already? Zionism isn’t a “system” it’s much more like Soylent Green. It’s people.

        It’s Jews preying on each other.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 26, 2015, 12:39 pm

        Yep, and there’s no way out. Just jump onto a garbage truck and sneak thru the check point gates. It’s the same on either side.

      • SQ Debris
        SQ Debris
        July 26, 2015, 9:36 pm

        Getting Israelis to read Darwish would be great, but at this point Ilan’s and Avigail’s work is weaponizing Israeli racism against itself. In a tribal/political environment that defines all non-Jews as congenitally anti-Semitic, Jewish voices that discard the zionist line are important to breaking the feedback loop.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 6:06 am

        Thanks SQ Debris, it’s one of the reasons I speak out. Maybe someone is listening out there…

    • Avigail
      Avigail
      July 26, 2015, 10:37 am

      can of worms, I have been saying repeatedly that I am not holding any hope for change from within and that I don’t believe we have time to wait. You really need to read more stuff of mine as you are pushing an open door… I support the BDS and believe the only way we might have any hope for stopping Israel’s settler colonialism is through pressure from outside. I say this all the time. I do think that if more American Jews wash their hands off Israel, that would help the outside pressure. Please read everything I say can of worms. We don’t disagree.

      • can of worms
        can of worms
        July 26, 2015, 11:02 am

        @Avigail. I don’t disagree with what you’ve said. Israel is settler colonialism? in our conversation we have gotten way past that already. Let’s go to the next step. BDS? Most of us here already see BDS as a practical force in motion. The occupation is not legitimate, Israel is a terror state. Zionists are self-deluded. In a way these have already become hegemonic notions; all of us here, even yonah, agree Israel needs ‘outside pressure’ to end the occupation. There’s nothing to disagree.

        What about the next level. For example, I want you to tell me how I’m deluded, how I’m duping myself. And I will tell you. That would help. And another thing that would help me personally, I want you to tell me what you think of desegregating Palestine-Israel. How it can be done. I’d die very well if I knew I managed to transmit this yearning and vision to a bloody soul.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 3:20 am

        Can of Worms, good morning.

        I was obviously not referring to you when I said American Jews were duped (assuming you are a Jew who is American)… Given what you believe I don’t have a problem with you at all. I made it clear that I am referring to Zionists and supporters of Israel. As for how you might be duping or deluding yourself? I have no idea Can of Worms… How would I know that?

        As for a solution for Israel and Palestine? I am a supporter of the one-state solution that I think is the only solution coming close to some kind of justice. Whether it will happen? I don’t know. I’m not a prophet… But I do believe that with sufficient outside pressure the idea of an exclusively Jewish state at the expense of another people might collapse and then there are enough bright, kind and intelligent people on both sides that could make it work. I think it’s enormously difficult. I have no idea if I will see anything remotely like this in my lifetime. But fundamentally I am an optimist and believe that the majority of people can change. I wouldn’t be a psychotherapist if I didn’t. Our brains are amazing things and can achieve great integration aka maturity, peace and health. So who knows? But right now, with the leaders we have and the way things are going not just in the ME but everywhere? I am not sure we are heading in the direction I am hoping for.

        I have no idea if I had answered your questions. Your comments are difficult for me to understand. I am not really sure a lot of the time what it is you are trying to say. So I hope I am doing some justice to that and if not, please forgive me.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      Maximus Decimus Meridius
      July 26, 2015, 11:30 am

      Agree.

      American Jews are not victims. Au contraire, on the whole they are well educated and affluent. They have not been ‘duped’. Instead, they have actively created a myth to which they cling, ignoring everything – and there’s a hell of a lot – which sullies it. And it’s not because the information isn’t out there – it is. Worse, many of them enthusiastically hawk this myth to others. They are not the victims of some slick salesman. They are the salesman.

      • can of worms
        can of worms
        July 26, 2015, 4:18 pm

        MDM – ja — Just imagine a duped lover who never ever senses the partner’s lies that are ongoing. Or someone who is told that the lover is lying but doesn’t dig in all the pockets and drawers to discover the truth. Or someone seeing skyscrapers evaporating into their own footprints in seconds. I don’t care how much the state spends on repressing dissent, that’s not someone who is duped. That’s someone who is trying to dupe me.

  21. yourstruly
    yourstruly
    July 26, 2015, 2:50 am

    Regardless of one’s race, ethnicity or religion one is either on the side of the slave or the slave-owner.

    Since Israel occupies Palestine (the Palestinian’s homeland), and since occupying another people’s land is an act of enslavement), it follows that in the case of Israel/Palestine, it’s the Palestinians who are the slaves and the Jewish Israelis and their supporters (no matter where they reside nor whether themselves Jewish) who are the slave-owners.

    and since none of us will be free until the last chain is broken ……..

    • annie
      annie
      July 26, 2015, 3:06 am

      yourstruly! it’s been so long ;) welcome back!

    • Avigail
      Avigail
      July 26, 2015, 3:17 am

      Hello yourstruly, well said! Since btw slavery isn’t up for debate anymore, nor for that matter domestic or child abuse, so should the case be with settler-colonialism.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        July 26, 2015, 12:21 pm

        Where does the often used term of Jewish continuity come into play here? It’s used a lot, for example, along with the term of “Silent Holocaust” in the American context. Avigail, what do you think it means as used?

        continuity |ˌkäntnˈ(y)o͞oətē|
        noun ( pl. continuities )
        1 the unbroken and consistent existence or operation of something over a period of time: pension rights accruing through continuity of employment.
        • a state of stability and the absence of disruption: they have provided the country with a measure of continuity.
        • (often continuity between/with) a connection or line of development with no sharp breaks: they used the same style of masonry to provide continuity between new and old.
        2 the maintenance of continuous action and self-consistent detail in the various scenes of a movie or broadcast: [ as modifier ] : a continuity error.
        • the linking of broadcast items, esp. by a spoken commentary.
        ORIGIN late Middle English: from Old French continuity, from Latin continuitas, from continuare ‘continue,’ from continuus (see continuous) .

        How does it differ from the Nazi concept of the Aryan nation?

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 5:05 am

        Hi Citizen, I am not familiar with either of these terms to be honest. I think they are part of American Jewish culture that I haven’t really been a part of. I wonder if ‘Jewish continuity’ means simply Jewish survival. As for ‘silent holocaust’? No idea…

  22. Danaa
    Danaa
    July 26, 2015, 4:53 am

    Well said, Avigail – I couldn’t agree more about the duping of American Jews, though clearly, those who get duped do so largely because they feel it’s not in the interest of their well-being to be otherwise. It’s sort of like those people on the right, being “duped” by the likes of Bush or Rubio or Trump, but on a much deeper and far more insiduous scale, because, after all, most Jewish Americans do not have the excuse of being ill-educated, or poorly travelled, or information deprived, or just discouraged from independent thought. Far from it.

    I would have to add though that those growing up in the “good old israel”, people like me, were duped even more. Yes we had excuses – and they were not even ‘excuses’, they were the reality bubble we lived in. In the days before the internet and with hebrew as the one and only language most of us read, we were quite limited in what we got exposed to. For example, myself, a voracious reader, never heard of hannah Arendt, had no clue what all the fuss about Kastner was and the name Deir Yassin was only once over-heard, surrepticiously, to never be heard again. Young people especially, who grew up in israel knoew not to ask difficult questions about the narrative of how israel really came to be. It is easy to believe that, as the off-spring of the victims of Europe, you, your people your country are “better than that”. We all want to believe that, and so we did, and everything around us conspired to make the belief valid enough, at least superficially.

    Back in the “old days”, my own encounters with American jews who came to visit Israel, left me with the impression they were, on the whole, incredibly naive and generally quite credulous of whatever crazy story, any of us, israeli natives chose to tell them. And we sure made up some crazy stuff (or at least I did, mostly tragic/heroic tales, borrowed from over-fertile imagination and not a few books) – they believed almost anything, if an israeli told the tale, and lapped up any make-believe deeds and misdeeds (yes, that was kind of fun….oh well, too bad those tales are now forgotten).

    Nowadays, after decades in the US, I still think of American jews as strangely naive about the world in general, and Israel in particular (strange enough when one realizes how many of these jewish people have all manner of advanced degrees). But I also realize something else – what makes the ‘duping” so much easier, even now, is the simple fact thatJjewish Americans do not read or speak hebrew fluently. Frankly, a brief visit to the comment pages of Haaretz (the hebrew not the English version) and/or a little scroll through the Israeli Facebooks that mention, for example, Obama, should be more than enough to disabuse many a fine American soul from their idealism about the average Israeli soul. In a way this is the flip side of what we, of the “old israel” faced – being cut off from the material available in, say, English, meant there was only what was published in Hebrew. Similarly, the well-meaning American jewish person, knowing little or no Hebrew, has no clue about the reality of life in Israel, and perhaps are not all that interested to know. A shining city on the hill – it’s so much easier on the soul.

    You are also right on the money when you say that an enterprise based on lies and dispossession cannot but precipitate a deep sense of guilt, whether acknowledged or not. I always thought it is hardly a coincidence than no sooner one gets into any “debate”, say with a typical liberal zionist, or even some israelis, that the question is hurled ” do you or don’t you believe that israel has the “right to exist?”. Funny question, that. One never gets it from other people of other ethnicities or nationalities. It’s as if, psychologically speaking, they know very well, there is a question of moral legitimacy there, but they turn the self-doubt into an accusation.

    • bintbiba
      bintbiba
      July 26, 2015, 8:20 am

      Glad to see you’re back, Danaa,
      Always great introspective, perceptive, beautifully expressed comments.

      Many thanks.
      Hoping you’ll keep on hanging around MW !

    • Avigail
      Avigail
      July 26, 2015, 8:45 am

      Thanks Danaa and it is so nice to meet you.

      You say in your comment:

      “I would have to add though that those growing up in the “good old israel”, people like me, were duped even more. Yes we had excuses – and they were not even ‘excuses’, they were the reality bubble we lived in. In the days before the internet and with hebrew as the one and only language most of us read, we were quite limited in what we got exposed to. For example, myself, a voracious reader, never heard of hannah Arendt, had no clue what all the fuss about Kastner was and the name Deir Yassin was only once over-heard, surrepticiously, to never be heard again. Young people especially, who grew up in israel knoew not to ask difficult questions about the narrative of how israel really came to be. It is easy to believe that, as the off-spring of the victims of Europe, you, your people your country are “better than that”. We all want to believe that, and so we did, and everything around us conspired to make the belief valid enough, at least superficially.”

      This is exactly the experience that I too have, growing up and being educated in Israel. I left when I was 27, as an adult relatively speaking. So had a full Israeli identity at a very deep level. Thank you so much for your comment. I agree with all of it and it really validates me. I hope you are well.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 26, 2015, 12:31 pm

      @ Danna
      Thanks for sharing; very astute, very revealing–there’s a show on American TV that deals with the children dealing with the fact their daddy was a serial killer.

    • just
      just
      July 26, 2015, 1:12 pm

      Danaa’s back!!! Great comment~ thank you!

    • Shmuel
      Shmuel
      July 26, 2015, 6:53 pm

      Hi Danaa. Good to read you again.

      they believed almost anything, if an israeli told the tale

      Ah, the old Israeli mystique. If we play our cards right, sometimes it even gets us a hearing for anti-Zionism and BDS :-)

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 27, 2015, 3:03 pm

        “Ah, the old Israeli mystique. If we play our cards right, sometimes it even gets us a hearing for anti-Zionism and BDS :-)”

        I saw that! And got a big :-) from it, too.

    • irishmoses
      irishmoses
      July 27, 2015, 12:31 am

      Great comment. I’ve missed your cogent analysis, Danaa. Glad to see you back even if only briefly.

    • Danaa
      Danaa
      July 28, 2015, 7:23 pm

      Thanks for the good comments, all. Nothing like a few compliments to get one back from too long a stay elsewhere…..

      I am really enjoying reading the many good comments in this thread. Been a while seeing that, hasn’t it?

  23. RuthAnne
    RuthAnne
    July 26, 2015, 5:11 am

    Thanks, Avigail, you raise some interesting and important points in an excellent article. I am new to your site, pleased to find some humanity and common sense applied to the disastrous situation in the Middle East.
    You said in the article:
    “But how can Israel behave ‘morally’ when it is a settler-colonial state? When have any settler-colonial societies behaved morally? It is an oxymoron. Settler-colonialism is a crime against humanity. A crime can’t behave morally…”
    This is succinctly put. But surely it also applies to the USA? That is a settler-colonial state, complete with all the crimes against the indigenous people that went into establishing that country.
    Perhaps this is why US citizens, whether Jewish or not, have difficulty seeing the same crimes carried out in Israel, indeed, the U.S. We’re architects of modern Israel along with the UK, where I live.
    You also said:
    “Israeli society has always been sick because you can’t build something healthy on a criminal foundation, where so much abuse has been, and still is being inflicted on others. ”
    Again, a truism which is also applicable to the U.S.A.
    I always find it baffling that so much credence and indeed worship is given to the U.S. Declaration of Independence, which covers over the sick roots of the foundation of that society.
    How great it would be if “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” actually applied to ALL people, including he Palestinians and the Native Americans.

    • MHughes976
      MHughes976
      July 26, 2015, 8:03 am

      England had been settled and colonised many times before we decided to do it to everyone else. An origin in colonialism, even in dispossession and oppression, is not quite the same thing as continuing practice of oppression: no one descended from the Welsh who resisted English colonists is now subject to a sovereign power that disfranchises him/her, the condition of the mass of Palestinians now. Still, it’s indeed true that the origins are not forgotten and that many people in the West sympathise with Israel for ‘imperialist’ reasons, sensing that it is a continuation of their own actions as the more powerful and superior (at least in its own self-image) civilisation. They may not be duped into thinking this – the continuity, alongside many very special features, is objectively there.
      The real duping/self-deception has lain in treating the Zionist project as a genuine continuation not of the imperialist but of the liberal and socialist traditions of the West, traditions often developed and advocated by Jewish thinkers and poliiticians. Israel was to be the model progressive society that we all should follow,though the element of dispossession and oppression was so obvious from the very beginning. Perhaps there had always been more inconsistency and self-deception in Western statements of idealism than we like to admit.

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        July 26, 2015, 8:31 am

        MHughes976: The real duping/self-deception has lain in treating the Zionist project as a genuine continuation not of the imperialist but of the liberal and socialist traditions of the West
        ———————

        Western liberalism has by no means been necessarily anti-imperialist. The British Empire sat quite comfortably with classic liberalism, as does the current U.S-. led imperialism with neoliberalism.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 26, 2015, 8:49 am

        MHughes976 — Thank you! Brilliant comment.

        You say: “The real duping/self-deception has lain in treating the Zionist project as a genuine continuation not of the imperialist but of the liberal and socialist traditions of the West, traditions often developed and advocated by Jewish thinkers and poliiticians. Israel was to be the model progressive society that we all should follow,though the element of dispossession and oppression was so obvious from the very beginning…”

        Absolutely right. This is the version of reality I was raised on in Israel. Conveniently the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the fact that we were settler-colonialists was completely covered up by this ‘idealism’. At school they taught us that the idealism you refer to was what Zionism was about… Can you imagine?

      • rosross
        rosross
        July 27, 2015, 10:09 am

        @MHughes976,

        I think to be fair in regard to colonisation we need to understand that if humans had not become nomadic and colonised other places we would all still be in Africa and it would be very crowded.

        Any study of human history makes it clear that colonisation was a required part of the evolutionary process and no doubt, in that way of the world in all things, particularly in the past, it was evolution of the ‘fittest’ or strongest.

        What we call British today is the end result of waves of invaders, occupiers and colonisers and it could have been no other way.

        And let’s not kid ourselves this was a ‘white’ or Anglo-European pastime. Bali in Indonesia is Hindu because????? Bantu tribes from South Africa form a part of the population of Malawi because???? Correct, invasion and colonisation. African tribes invaded, occupied and colonised just like everyone else. Ditto for the Indians of India and ditto for the Indians of the Americas who originated in the steppes of southern Russia and northern China.

        Colonisation was just a natural and needed part of human evolution.

        However, by the 19th century at least, it was beginning to be understood and appreciated that violent colonisation (economic became the new form) was destructive and unjust and perspective changed. Israel was founded amidst the wreckage of a world disoriented and dysfunctional following two horrendous world wars and a destructive Depression, not to mention a deadly flu epidemic.

        By the time the Israelis were allowed to colonise violently in Palestine, we should have known better, but we did not and so the Israeli colonial venture began.

        Why Israel has been allowed to get away with its human rights atrocities and war crimes for so long is another question, but since the first attack on the Gaza concentration camp, awareness around the world has grown and so has information. With the second shocking attack images and stories went around the world in an instant, revealing the horrors to which Israel would resort in order to punish the Palestinians for resisting occupation and colonisation.

        The tide turned and we are now well on the path to a one-state solution.

        So, yes, much wrong has been done in the name of colonisation but it was for most of human history a necessary evil. When we became more enlightened, support for colonisation ended – Israel being an odd exception but not alone because Tibet remains occupied by China and West Papua by Indonesia and no doubt there are others.

        Israel is however the only one which claims to be a modern democracy and so is judged more harshly because it is judged by the bar it has set itself.

        Israel, can be hauled into line as apartheid South Africa was and it will be, joining all other nations founded through colonisation as a democracy where coloniser and colonised live side by side with equal rights.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        July 27, 2015, 11:17 am

        Thanks for kind word, Avigail. Sibiriak is absolutely right about liberal imperialism – the idea that empire is justified as a huge improvement on local despotism. Perhaps this idea is echoed whenever anyone says ‘Only democracy in ME’, though even then it’s a distorted sort of echo since any idea that democracy has come to the ME in general under Israel’s influence is not being affirmed but very emphatically denied. There may be many better fates than subjection to a local despot but it’s hard to argue that being driven out and dispossessed is one of them.

    • Avigail
      Avigail
      July 26, 2015, 8:34 am

      Hi RuthAnne, thanks and welcome to this thread. I have often thought that one of the reasons the US and also Australia for that matter are so supportive of Israel is precisely the reason you point to. If they were going to criticise Israel they also have to own up to their settler-colonial past and the crimes it committed. I agree with you. I avoid speaking about the US as I do not feel I know enough to do that. But it’s always great to hear the same truths coming from people who live in the US and know the history of their own country. Thank you!

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        July 26, 2015, 12:55 pm

        Adults may look back at when they were children in the school yard, and ignored bullying there, or were complicit in it; they become adults and attack the contemporary bullies. The US Indian Wars ended in the 19th Century. This is the first quarter of the 21st Century. In between there were the first two world wars, followed by the Nuremberg and Toyko Trials and their Geneva progeny. What Israel has been doing since its inception, given the timeline and international principles of governance for principled state action developed before and after its birth as a state, are clear war crimes. Israel is not alone. The US attack on Iraq by Bush Jr was also such a crime. And now the push to attack Iran? And all those US cops trained by Israelis? Jeez!

      • tidings
        tidings
        July 26, 2015, 2:41 pm

        Isn’t “the special relationship” a manifestation of birds of a feather flocking together, agreeing and reinforcing each others’ beliefs in the justice of their own (and each other’s) existence, a sort of mutual hasbara? I’ve also been wondering if Israel’s violence has not infected America’s, perhaps directly because of Israel’s often-alleged participation–supplying arms and weapons and crowd control training–in the American self-defense project; or perhaps indirectly, because of all the time Israeli and US leaders and lobbyists spend in each other’s company, visiting each other and lacking on the phone, begging and promising and bragging.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 5:39 am

        Hi Tidings :) Birds of a feather indeed!

      • just
        just
        July 26, 2015, 4:23 pm

        +1, tidings!

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 5:41 am

        Hi Just, totally unrelated… Can you instruct me on what html tags to use to create italics when I quote someone else? I tried but it didn’t work as I don’t know html syntax… Thanks!!

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 26, 2015, 6:51 pm

        RuthAnne said:
        “…But surely it also applies to the USA? That is a settler-colonial state, complete with all the crimes against the indigenous people that went into establishing that country.”

        I’d be careful about giving Israel an excuse to justify its own post WW2 settler-colonialism on the grounds that the US was doing the same 100 plus years earlier. As Citizen says more completely below (or above?) our (US) version of settler-colonialism occurred during a period (19th century) when colonialism was acceptable (at least to the colonial powers).

        The US imperfectly made amends for that policy. We also put a stop to slavery and then, a century later, imperfectly put a stop to segregation. We also put a stop to Nazi Germany and were instrumental in the creation of the Geneva Conventions aimed at preventing the sins of the past from reoccurring. Imperfect as we are as a nation today , our 19th century actions shouldn’t be used to condone or diminish Israel’s culpability for its post WW2 version of settler-colonialism.

        While I agree with Citizen that our invasion of Iraq constitutes a war crime, there was more than a little neocon-Zionist-Israeli encouragement in that endeavor, as there is in today’s more blatant neocon-Zionist-Israeli efforts to quash the Iran deal to enable the bombing and war with that country they so fervently hope for. As Citizen points out, there is also a domestic version of neocon-Zionist-Israeli influence seen in the Israelification of our local police forces.

        None of this justifies our behavior as a nation, but it does show how pervasive neocon-Zionist-Israeli influence has become in the US. It has made a mockery of US values and set us up as the icons of hypocrisy. US values today are best described as largely those of Israel’s Zionist Likudniks mixed in with a healthy dose of neoconservative ideology.

        Pardon the rant.

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 26, 2015, 7:29 pm

        Avigail,

        A wonderful article, elegant in its simplicity. Thank you.

        However, US support for Israel has NOTHING to do with some sort of residual guilt complex over our treatment of our native peoples in the mid-19th century. It has everything to do with Zionist organization skills and brilliance in creating and dominating the past and current narratives in our media and political spheres, and in creating immense influence through brilliant lobbying strategy and tactics.

        The American people have been duped while its media and political system have been largely co-opted.

        We need to keep our eyes on the ball. Offering up American guilt or our 19th century version of settler-colonialism as excuses for Israel’s 21st century behavior toward the Palestinians just plays into the hands of the neocon-Zionist-Israeli hasbara machine.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 5:45 am

        Thank you Irishmoses. I appreciate the support. I agree with you but please remember that an explanation is by no means an excuse or a justification. Personally I think that Israel and the US have identified each other as similar in their psychology. I think the ingredients were all there in American society already and that just suited Israel perfectly. We’ll never know for sure whether guilt is playing a part there or not. All of these argument are always speculative. The truth is always somewhere in the middle when it comes to understanding the motivations behind how groups behave and who influenced whom etc. I appreciate your contribution. Thank you.

      • rosross
        rosross
        July 27, 2015, 10:31 am

        @ Avigail,

        I think US support for Israel has to do with the power of Israeli/Zionist/Jewish lobbies in the US. I do not believe, having spent a lot of time in the US, that many give much of a thought to the history involving indigenous although that can vary State to State.

        Australia’s position varies depending upon which party is in power and it varies depending upon which politician is speaking. I suspect pressure from the US, to whom every Australian Government seems to ‘forelock-tug’ is the reason why Australia falls into line, not always, but more often than not on Israel.

        So Israeli/Jewish/Zionist power at work in the US, filters through to influence Australia.

        As an Australian, and one who has spent quite some years researching the country’s colonial history and growing up as the nation became more aware, I believe Australians, like Canadians and New Zealanders, have addressed their history and in fact far too much effort has gone into seeking to rewrite it. The Americans are behind all three of the above cited nations formed through colonisation but then they are 100 years older and no doubt that also makes a difference.

        There were far less crimes committed against indigenous in Australia, NZ and Canada but perhaps again, being founded a century later contributed to that. The English certainly approached colonising the continent, well, turning it into a penal colony, with a more sensitive approach to the Aborigines and recognition that they needed to be befriended and their knowledge of the land, shared with the settlers, because it was important.

        But the issue here is not Australia’s colonial history which was far better than many, considering the times – context being crucial to a just and fair understanding of any history – but Israel.

        And, there is no doubt that if Israel had done what Australia did, create one nation with equal rights for all, in fact more rights for indigenous as it happens, and an official Government sorry, not to mention countless billions spent annually on trying to help the few indigenous still in need, then we would not be having this conversation.

        Israel stands alone, as the youngest nation formed through colonisation, as one which refuses justice and freedom to the indigenous people whose land it took. All of the other colonisers have given full and equal rights to their citizens and some have said sorry.

        When Israel does the same it will have joined the enlightened, civilized world.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 28, 2015, 3:02 am

        Thank you Rossross, look, this is all speculative anyway and more a hypothesis than anything certain. But when I talk about the effect of the past, on societies like the US or Australia, I don’t mean that it is conscious. I think there are things that lurk in the shadows, underneath if you will, that people aren’t aware of but that are affecting the way governments react. I do think there is guilt (of the wrong kind) both in the US and in Australia that might be playing a part in the policy on Israel.

        As for Australia’s policy on Israel I am no expert but I tend to disagree with you. Australia has been starry eyed about Israel for a very long time. Didn’t Bob Hawk get literally teary on TV talking about Israel? All Australian governments since then (not sure about before) regardless if they were Labor or Liberal, have been extremely supportive of Israel, always voting against resolutions that were not in Israel’s favour or otherwise abstaining.

        Australian has been having really strong military ties with Israel for a very long time. Australian clearance divers (those divers whose job is to remove and disable old ordnance that lies at the bottom of the sea — very dangerous job) are trained in Israel and so are sections of the police and special forces. Please do not ask how I know this but I do. The Australian public is largely unaware of these things going on and the personnel who do the training in Israel are not supposed to tell. Israeli ‘experts’ in various aspects of ‘security’ are contracted to come to Australia to instruct various sections of Australia’s security outfits. So there are deep and quite practical ties going on. There is a real admiration of Israel in Australia and there I am not sure I can entirely attribute this to the Zionist Jewish lobby in Australia. Israel takes every new MP in Australia to a free of charge tour of Israel where they are being taught the official narrative of history as Israel wants them to know complete with the ‘poor victim Israel that is the only bastion of democracy in a sea of a savage Middle East. I know this because three years ago when I went on a book tour in Australia I spend three days in Parliament House in Canberra on a lobbying attempt with politicians there. Bob Carr was the only one who really questioned Israel more openly and the other ones did that very quietly. The Australian Greens were the only ones who refused to go on this junket tours of Israel, on principle and even their policy on Israel leaves quite a lot to be desired. But either way, I and my companions from APAN were told all about how Israel does it. Not so much the Zionist lobby in Australia but the actual Israeli government.

        As for Australian treatment of Aboriginal people, I know you are very positive about it but I am not so convinced yet. Australia still has a way to go in its treatment of Aboriginal people, despite the formal apology from Rudd a few years back.

        Anyway, like I said, the business about the role that this alleged guilt plays is speculative and I am not attached to it. I just think it might be playing a part there. Crimes from the past, even if they have been atoned, don’t just disappear from the psyche of people especially when the victims are still there to remind us of what was done to them.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo
        July 28, 2015, 6:18 am

        Rosross
        I think the great investigative journalist John Pilger would disagree with your comments on Australia’s treatment of the indigenous Aboriginee population:

        “… in fact more rights for indigenous as it happens, and an official Government sorry, not to mention countless billions spent annually on trying to help the few indigenous still in need,…”

        I saw his docu-film called UTOPIA a couple of years ago and it reveals the quite a lot about the real treatment and attitudes towards the Aborigine people until this very day

        I’m not sure if you’ve seen the film but it’s free to watch on his website and its also available free on YouTube. I’ve never lived in Australia but I know that you and some other commenters here have and do (Talknic, Shingo, RoHa…) so would be interested to hear other comments about this

        However over the decades I’ve learned to trust the work John Pilger has done on most subjects including the israel/Palestine issue so the film seems very credible to me

      • justicewillprevail
        justicewillprevail
        July 27, 2015, 1:11 pm

        Avigail, the html format is to preface the text you want with backward and forward arrows which contain the command you want. i is for italics, so placing that inside the arrows will start the italics command. Placing a backslash before the i tells it the command is cancelled. So you end the passage you want with backslash i inside the arrows . It isn’t possible to simply type the language here because it will ignore the arrows and backslashes as if it were syntax and not commentary. If you google html syntax there are lots of examples. Using a b, for example, instead of an i, will produce bold text.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 3:45 pm

        Thanks so much JWP. I will give that a try!! Much appreciated.

      • Kris
        Kris
        July 27, 2015, 2:40 pm

        Justicewillprevail, thank you for explaining how to use HTML to create italics and bold text! Much appreciated!

        (Just in case someone doesn’t already know, the “backward” and “forward” arrows are the symbols that are found in the upper areas of the comma and period keys.)

      • just
        just
        July 27, 2015, 2:48 pm

        Yes, jwp~ thanks so much for that lesson!

        (I totally missed Avigail’s query to me~ apologies, though I wouldn’t have been able to answer her! ;)

      • Kris
        Kris
        July 27, 2015, 2:52 pm

        Avigail, just in case, here’s how to create block quotes: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/blockquote

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 3:46 pm

        Thank you Kris. Hopefully some of my comments now will look a bit more elegant! :)

      • straightline
        straightline
        July 28, 2015, 6:43 pm

        Hi Avigail

        As an Australian I tend to agree with you about the treatment of the indigenous people, though as rosross says, it depends on the flavour of the government – don’t expect more than publicity stunts from the current crowd. I look at our friends across the Tasman and see a much healthier interaction between the Maoris and the colonists – not perfect but much better. We could do a lot better but to a great extent under the more enlightened recent governments (Lab and Fraser Libs) it has been more about working out what to do (and often getting it wrong) for Aboriginals than about whether to do it. I see hope in the burgeoning Aboriginal middle class partly as a result of land rights legislation and an increasing number of Aboriginals in state and federal parliaments. Having said that, to me, living in an affluent suburb of a South Eastern major city, Aborigines are an abstraction – I hardly ever see one.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indigenous_Australian_politicians

        While not directly about colonialism, it is a sign of Australia ‘s view of “the other” that perhaps more than any other country, relative to population size, in recent times it has opened its doors to all-comers – be they Ethiopians, Afghans, Israelis, or even Scots. As countries go (and the track record of most is abysmal) Australia does pretty well at integrating people and cultures from many different parts of the world. Of course it is easy to do that when the economy is going well. Let’s see what the next few years will bring.

        I don’t see colonialism or our failure to acknowledge it (have we?) as the key to our support for Israel – which is I think even stronger than in the US – perhaps on a par with our fellow former colony in Canada. Look at support for Israel in France and Germany and it is a long time since they were colonies of any other country. Nor do I see it resulting from our vassal status relative to the US, though the connections between US and Australian especially in Defence are very strong.

        Our support for Israel is driven largely by the home grown powerful and rich Zionist network and Zionist control of much of the mainstream media. Even the national broadcaster – the ABC – dares not permit significant criticism of Israel (or even fair reporting) for fear of Michael Danby and his colleagues in Parliament. Even Phillip Adams on the ABC is PEP. He regularly gives soft interviews to Zionists, though a couple of days ago I did hear part of an interview with someone who seemed to regard Hamas members as human beings – that’s a big shift – but only because “ISIL is worse”! Look at the media attack on Bob Carr (former Foreign Minister) when he spoke the truth about the influence of the Zionist lobby on Gillard and Australian foreign policy. If you listen to, read, or watch Australian mainstream media and talk to otherwise well-informed Australians you would believe that poor little besieged Israel is being constantly harassed by terrorists, that thousands of rockets are fired on a daily basis into Israel and that it has done nothing at all to deserve this treatment. I find more understanding of the I/P situation in the UK, with at least a few in the media (not the BBC unfortunately) standing up to the lobby, than in Australia.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 3:35 am

        Thanks Straightline for this good and balanced review. I appreciate it. I am not attached to my hypothesis that ex-colonialism might be playing a part in support for Israel. The Jewish community in Australia is quite small and I have often wondered about the disproportionate level of influence that Israel has on Australian politics. I never understood that. I lived in Australia for 18 years until 2010 and was quite shocked to discover the amazing support Israel enjoys in Australia. I agree with you that it is on par with Canada for example. Have a look at the response I sent a day or two ago to Rossross roughly about these issues. Thank you for participating!

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 27, 2015, 3:11 pm

      “But surely it also applies to the USA?”

      It sure does. Which makes it very easy, or should make it very easy, for Israel to look at the history of the US, and conclude that they cannot afford to pay the terrible price America paid for settler-colonialism. And that they don’t have the resources, nor is Zionism a strong enough historical current to withstand the consequences of settler-colonialism.

    • talknic
      talknic
      July 29, 2015, 10:37 pm

      @ RuthAnne
      //“But how can Israel behave ‘morally’ when it is a settler-colonial state? When have any settler-colonial societies behaved morally? It is an oxymoron. Settler-colonialism is a crime against humanity. A crime can’t behave morally…”//

      “This is succinctly put. But surely it also applies to the USA? That is a settler-colonial state, complete with all the crimes against the indigenous people that went into establishing that country.”

      Israel is STILL colonizing! Still dispossessing!

      //“Israeli society has always been sick because you can’t build something healthy on a criminal foundation, where so much abuse has been, and still is being inflicted on others. ”//

      “Again, a truism which is also applicable to the U.S.A.”

      The indigenous US population has US citizenship, the vote. They can go on holidays overseas and return. Study overseas and return. Use the same roads as everyone else in the US. Do not have to go thru checkpoints to get to school or hospital or go shopping or to worship.

      The Palestinians do not have the Israeli vote in Israel nor in territories Israel illegally claims as its own. They must pass thru numerous checkpoints IN THEIR OWN TERRITORY to go to school, work, shop, worship, tend their fields

      “I always find it baffling that so….”

      I always find it baffling that some folk refuse to examine their own idiotic notions before they put their foot in their mouth

      “How great it would be if “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” actually applied to ALL people, including he Palestinians and the Native Americans”

      Lemme get this straight. If the US had not been colonized, the Zionists would not have decided to colonize Palestine circa 1897 … is that what you’re trying to say?

      Or is it that had the US not been colonized, Israel would adhere to International Law and the UN Charter and hundreds of UNSC resolutions affording Israel the opportunity to adhere to the binding laws and binding UN Charter those resolutions re-affirm and/or emphasize, all of which Israel has ignored … is that it?

      Or maybe you mean that all non-indigenous Americans should leave, including our US Jewish fellows, THEN Israel would suddenly stop illegally acquiring territory, stop lying to Israelis about not having any borders, stop illegally selling duped Israelis real estate in non-Israeli territories, stop deliberately encouraging them to be in breach of GC IV adopted to protect ALL civilians, including those of the Occupying Power from the expected violent consequences of occupying another people and their territory … is that what you’re trying to say?

      I hate to tell you this RuthAnne , but you’re yapping at the wrong people. Go whine to the Zionist Federation who started this idiotic fiasco 118 years ago. Go bitch at Netanyahu who insists on more and more and more illegal Israeli settlements in non-Israeli territories. Go moan to the Israeli Government who insists on assisting Israelis to endanger themselves by illegally settling on non-Israeli territory.

      The Palestinians ask for their LEGAL rights according to the laws and UN Charter Israel obliged itself to uphold, but has simply ignored for 67 years

      Israel’s demands for other folks territory for Israeli defense have no legal basis. All states have equal right to territorial integrity and self defense. Israel’s refusal to allow non-Jewish Israeli citizens right of return to Israel has no legal basis. Israel’s demand to recognized as the Jewish State has no legal basis. There are numerous UN Member States who do not recognize each other, they are never the less legitimate states. Israel’s demands that there be a peace treaty with Palestine before it can be recognized has no legal basis. Israel was recognized while at war, it was accepted into the UN while it was at war in territories the Israeli Government itself said on May 22nd 1948 were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”. Israel has occupied for 67 year non-Israeli territories in what remained of Palestine after Israel proclaimed its borders. It has never withdrawn from any Palestinian territory nor has it legally acquired any territories beyond its proclaimed borders.

    • MHughes976
      MHughes976
      August 1, 2015, 4:25 pm

      I agree with rosross that colonies were sometimes a constructive thing. There’s no moral obligation to stay where you are. Perhaps the Sicilians gained in the end from the Greek foundation of Syracuse: they weren’t expelled from Sicily as a result. ‘Nomads’ may gain from having cities to trade with. However, I think that everyone in the ancient world knew as well as we do that dispossession and seizure for yourself are wrong, even if quite widely practised. The Bible’s elaborate justifications of Joshua’s conquest as the result of an absolutely unique divine decree demonstrates how conquest has always shocked normal morality for as far back as we know.

  24. JLewisDickerson
    JLewisDickerson
    July 26, 2015, 5:18 am

    RE: “It’s time for American Jews to recognize they have been duped”

    BUYER’S STOCKHOLM SYNDROME:

    Post-purchase rationalization, also known as Buyer’s Stockholm Syndrome, is a cognitive bias whereby someone who has purchased an expensive product or service overlooks any faults or defects in order to justify their purchase. It is a special case of choice-supportive bias.
    Expensive purchases often involve a lot of careful research and deliberation, and many consumers will often refuse to admit that their decision was made in poor judgment. Many purchasing decisions are made emotionally, based on factors such as brand-loyalty and advertising, and so are often rationalized retrospectively in an attempt to justify the choice. . .

    SOURCE – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization

    POWERPOINT PRESENTATION:
    ■ [PPT] Cognitive Dissonance Theory – https://docs.google.com/gview?url=http://commfaculty.fullerton.edu/rgass/ProcessesofSocialInfluence/Cognitive%20Dissonance.pptx

    • JLewisDickerson
      JLewisDickerson
      July 26, 2015, 5:31 am

      INTRODUCING MY NEW GRAVATAR/AVATAR/ICON:
      I love my dear mother. I really do, y’all! ! !
      Lou Castel in Fists in the Pocket (1965)

      P.S. Lou Castel’s father was from Sweden and his mother was from Columbia.
      Lou Castel – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_Castel

    • tidings
      tidings
      July 26, 2015, 2:48 pm

      Isn’t this simply “buyer’s remorse”? The Wiki link you provide is very dodgy and shallow. Stockholm Syndrome and “buyer’s” anything could not reasonably be linked in any way: Stockholm Syndrome describes the identification prisoners develop with/for their captors.

      • JLewisDickerson
        JLewisDickerson
        July 26, 2015, 8:24 pm

        RE: “Isn’t this simply “buyer’s remorse”? ~ tidings

        SHORT ANSWER(S): Yes, and no.

        LONGER ANSWER(S): I’m trying to figure out all of this myself. As well as I understand it (having been trained as a lawyer, not as a psychologist), the two are related (but not strictly the same).

        • “Buyer’s remorse” is the sense of regret [i.e., “second guessing” oneself – essentially a type of cognitive dissonance] after having made an important purchase. It is most frequently associated with the purchase of an expensive item such as a car or house. . .
        . . . Buyer’s remorse is thought to stem from cognitive dissonance, specifically post-decision dissonance, that arises when a person must make a difficult decision . . .
        Buyer’s remorse – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyer%27s_remorse

        • “Buyer’s Stockholm Syndrome”, a/k/a “post-purchase rationalization”, is a cognitive bias [i.e. in essence, a type of defence mechanism] whereby someone who has purchased an expensive product or service overlooks [i.e., is in denial as to] any faults or defects (while exaggerating the positive attributes) in order to justify their purchase [thereby diminishing any “buyers remorse” (i.e., sense of regret / second guessing / cognitive dissonance). It is a special case of “choice-supportive bias”*.
        Post-purchase rationalization, a/k/a Buyer’s Stockholm Syndrome – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization

        * Choice-supportive bias
        From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
        In cognitive science, choice-supportive bias is the tendency to retroactively ascribe positive attributes to an option one has selected. It is a cognitive bias. For example, if a person buys a computer from Apple instead of a computer (PC) running Windows, they are likely to ignore or downplay the faults of Apple computers while amplifying those of Windows computers. Conversely, they are also likely to notice and amplify advantages of Apple computers and not notice or de-emphasize those of Windows computers.
        What is remembered about a decision can be as important as the decision itself, especially in determining how much regret or satisfaction one experiences.[1] Research indicates that the process of making and remembering choices yields memories that tend to be distorted in predictable ways.[1] In cognitive science, one predictable way that memories of choice options are distorted is that positive aspects tend to be remembered as part of the chosen option, whether or not they originally were part of that option, and negative aspects tend to be remembered as part of rejected options.[1] Once an action has been taken, the ways in which we evaluate the effectiveness of what we did may be biased.[2] It is believed this may influence our future decision-making. These biases may be stored as memories, which are attributions that we make about our mental experiences based on their subjective qualities, our prior knowledge and beliefs, our motives and goals, and the social context. True and false memories arise by the same mechanism because when the brain processes and stores information, it cannot tell the difference from where they came from.[3] . . .
        CONTINUED AT – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias

        P.S. PURCHASE > BUYER’S REMORSE > POST-PURCHASE RATIONALIZATION (a/k/a Buyer’s Stockholm Syndrome)
        [purchase > cognitive dissonance > defense mechanism]

      • JLewisDickerson
        JLewisDickerson
        July 26, 2015, 8:45 pm

        P.P.S. HAVING PERUSED THIS POWERPOINT PRESENTATION A SECOND TIME, IT IS BETTER THAN I FIRST THOUGHT:
        ■ [PPT] Cognitive Dissonance Theory – https://docs.google.com/gview?url=http://commfaculty.fullerton.edu/rgass/ProcessesofSocialInfluence/Cognitive%20Dissonance.pptx

    • tidings
      tidings
      July 26, 2015, 2:49 pm

      Duplicated. Apologies.
      Hazel

  25. Shmuel
    Shmuel
    July 26, 2015, 6:12 am

    Thanks, Avigail.

    As long as the issues continue to be framed in terms like “the Israeli army should strive for ‘a balance between morality and the fact that it is facing ruthless enemies who wish to destroy it”, reports of “change” will be greatly exaggerated.

    This framing is also central to the campaign against BDS. If there are no fundamental issues, but merely a question of getting Israel to ‘behave a little better’ or find a better “balance”, BDS can only be interpreted as a “singling out” or an “attempt to destroy”.

    Furthermore, the attitude that there are no real grounds for BDS against Israel is, in and of itself, so deeply offensive to Palestinian victims that it makes support for BDS all the more important — if only as an expression of solidarity with those who are not even allowed the minimal comfort of recognition of their suffering and of the wrongs done to them.

    • Shmuel
      Shmuel
      July 26, 2015, 6:42 am

      I would add that “the Israeli army should strive for ‘a balance between morality and the fact that it is facing ruthless enemies who wish to destroy it” implies a complete disconnect between the two sides of the scale, and is, therefore, weighted to one side from the outset. The “fact that it is facing ruthless enemies who wish to destroy it” is a given, unrelated to the “morality” of Israel’s behaviour. “Morality” is thus secondary to the only relevant “fact” — senseless violence by Israel’s “ruthless enemies” — in short, do the best you can to behave “morally”‘, despite the “fact” that your enemies are “ruthless” (hence immoral). In this, the statement also implies an inherent moral superiority, weighting the scales even further.

      Apologies to those who are allergic to quoting Scripture, but I can’t help this one: “Honest scales, honest weights, an honest ephah and an honest hin you shall have. I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt” (Leviticus 19:36).

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 26, 2015, 12:35 pm

        “Honest scales, honest weights, an honest ephah and an honest hin you shall have. I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt” (Leviticus 19:36).”

        Thank you Shmuel. As you may know, Washington State has legalized marihuana, and I was thinking of opening a pot-shop. Now I have a wonderful and fitting Scripture Quote to put by the doorpost of my store.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        July 26, 2015, 1:02 pm

        “Half of survey respondents said the Israeli army should strive for ‘a balance between morality and the fact that it is facing ruthless enemies who wish to destroy it’

        Fact… Sergeant Friday, where are you? “Just the facts, mame.”

    • Avigail
      Avigail
      July 26, 2015, 8:21 am

      Thank you Shmuel. Really good analysis and I agree with you. Many thanks for participating here and for your contributions.

    • bintbiba
      bintbiba
      July 26, 2015, 9:57 am

      Shmuel, greetings

      Why oh why do I get so tongue- tied and can only comment Thank you,s that end up meaning nothing!

      Your erudite, scholarly , and penetratingly human analyses are a ‘balm to the soul ‘ to read .
      I remain permanently and respectfully tongue- tied ….

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 26, 2015, 10:23 am

        Just wanted to say hi Bintbiba and thank you for all your lovely comments. Nothing wrong with thank-yous… :)

    • Danaa
      Danaa
      July 28, 2015, 6:47 pm

      Good to see you here as well. Too many of us seem to have decamped elsewhere, understandably perhaps, given that one can rail against the injustice that is israel only so long, before getting a bit disheartened with the near absence of “progress” towards actually helping the people that do the suffering. I am wrong, of course, in my impatience and too quick to put on the dark glasses, given that historically, justice never came swiftly to anyone, and many are still waiting, 100’s if not 1000’s of years later. I am also wrong because BDS is in fact making progress, even if the progress can give only so much comfort to those on the ground who bear the brunt of Israel’s and israelis’ atrocious behavior. The progress manifest in the new assaults on BDS coming from the usual corners. Still, my tendency – inherited no doubt of millenia of DNA conditioning – is to worry, and so worry I do.

      Your point is a good one indeed – the battle ground against BDS has been shifting for some time, and so it’s hardly a surprise to see the poison arrow of “legitimacy” questioning, hurled with gusto. Whataboutism is just part of it (also known as “why us”?). The other piece of the same old tactic is the attempt to undermine solidarity by calling upon that mortal enemy of the attempt to do good – planting doubt in the morality of the cause, as a way of undermining its viability. It’s a tactic that few have ever been better at than the great Jewish people – after all, they started that in antiquity and wrote a very very long book that is masterpiece of PR for the rights of the chosen to behave badly, the badness of the acts papered over with exclamations of guilt, pierced with heavy doses of self-doubt, said self-doubts then being project upon enemies, both real and made-up.

      That being said, I still love your quotes – goes to show you – can never overlook the pearls hiding beneath the junk (alas, those dark glasses don’t help!). No one better than you to find them though – no wonder you are missed. Anyways, having just called it junk, I’m a sucker for biblical justifications must be the traces of some old cognitive dissonance. But for a cure!

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 3:26 am

        Hear hear Danaa, I have nothing to add! I love the way you write. You capture precisely my thoughts and sentiment as well. Thank you!

  26. Kay24
    Kay24
    July 26, 2015, 6:19 am

    A well written article. I could sense the same despair we all feel coming through. It is indeed frustrating that American Jews are still acting as if they are under the spell of the koolaid. Most of them are unable to take the truth and do the right thing, that is condemn Israel for the crimes they commit , and that it is time to treat it like the alien settler colonist it is, which they would easily have done had it been any other nation. Israel has been perpetrating human rights abuses for years because the US, the American Jews, the American media, keep protecting, and enabling the criminals. This is clear. Israel is controlling the message in the US, it is masterful in hiding the truth, and making the American people receive the propaganda only they way they want it to. Israel is a rogue state, but the American Jews are made to feel that that what they do is for the “good” of Israel. Birth right trips are part of this master plan to keep the American Jews devoted to the place they are made to believe they are part of, to keep that devotion, funding, and support going, and most of all the reason to ignore what is truly going on over there.

    It is time they opened their eyes and did the right thing for the oppressed, and stopped enabling this rogue state.

    • Avigail
      Avigail
      July 26, 2015, 8:22 am

      Thank you Kay24, great comment!

    • bintbiba
      bintbiba
      July 26, 2015, 10:36 am

      Dear Abigail…

      I have a special history with Shmuel on this site. The first time I ever saw him comment…I was so blown away by his truth and humanity, that I unabashedly declared my love publicly on that thread,thereby embarrassing myself and most probably Shmuel himself as well ! Just an old woman being emotionally responsive to so much goodness !

      Thus I remain tongue tied . he is so impressive !
      And I accept that ‘there is nothing wrong with thank you,s ‘ , of course. Only good manners that keep this world from going totally topsy turvy.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 26, 2015, 11:36 am

        And you have my love Bintbiba :)

      • Shmuel
        Shmuel
        July 26, 2015, 6:55 pm

        Once again, you leave me at a loss for words, dear bintbiba. To borrow some of yours, “gentle thoughts in your direction”.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 6:54 am

        It’s wonderful to witness this kind of human connection and warmth. I live for this! Thank you both Bintbiba and Shmuel for being so open and human here.

  27. Marnie
    Marnie
    July 26, 2015, 7:51 am

    “In Atlanta, someone said that “Diaspora Jews need to know that Israel is behaving morally.”

    Geez that makes me sick.

    Diaspora Jews (obviously not all of them) need to know Israel is behaving morally so they can sleep well at night and also continue to send their kids on Birthright trips, plan their kids’ bar and bat mitzvahs in occupied Jerusalem, send their precious darlings to zionist run summer camps, and support the zionist state as long as they pretend the army behaves. Seriously? The IDF has shown no restraint whatsoever in Palestine, especially when dealing with its most dangerous enemy combatants – children. Yes, school age children armed with rocks, or being seen with children with rocks, or holding a rock, or standing by some rocks (can see why stoning was so popular, they’re everywhere!), or going to school where they might better hone their rock throwing skills because all their schools are terrorist training camps, or going to the shuk to buy food to feed their families and the terrorist operatives hiding in their homes, or going to a demonstration with family members so they can kill soldiers. Do these same diaspora Jews also tell themselves this false narrative about Palestinians to help them sleep at night?

    • CigarGod
      CigarGod
      July 26, 2015, 1:13 pm

      We make a sad faces for the – poor little children -. We think this gives us permission to brag about our most moral killing machine.

    • Avigail
      Avigail
      July 27, 2015, 6:48 am

      Yes, I suspect some do, Marnie. Thank you for your comment.

  28. Xpat
    Xpat
    July 26, 2015, 9:06 am

    Avigail –
    You put too much faith in American Jews. Their social justice (the famed “tikkun olam”) concerns do not relate to America’s original sins. They talk about Rwanda and Darfur, gay rights in Africa (or the U.S.). They praise Martin Luther King to the skies but not a word about Jewish speculators defrauding Black homeowners in the 60s and 70s, not a word about Jewish complicity in slavery. As for the European genocide against first nations, that is considered to have happened before the Jews arrived. Anyway, what have Native Americans got to do with the lives of American Jews in suburbia today?
    So, yes, in the present moment, the socially conscious fringe of the mainstream Jewish community has shown up for Ferguson and Black Lives Matter. Most Jews won’t touch even that.
    American Jews avoiding the structural issues is not limited to Israel. Jews, to the extent that they feel Jewish, see themselves as outsiders. We are not responsible for the big problems, certainly not the historical ones.

    • Avigail
      Avigail
      July 26, 2015, 10:21 am

      Interesting Elliot and rather depressing but I can’t say I am particularly surprised. Jews are just people like all other people. I am not surprised that there are Jewish criminals or Jewish violators of human rights or profiteers. I was abused in my childhood by my Jewish parents. Israel’s prisons are filled with Jewish criminals. I have never had any illusions about Jews being anything other than ordinary, some good, some bad, some appalling human beings. It’s the people as a group that have a sense that they are more moral than others and it’s that misguided attitude that they project onto Israel, absurdly excepting a settler-colonial country to be ‘moral’.

      I supposed in my piece I am thinking of those American Jews who see themselves as liberal and caring and who would fight for the rights of others but stop when it comes to the Palestinians. Their automatic and incredibly poorly informed loyalty to Israel blinds them to the fact that they are hypocrites really. You are either good and care about others or you don’t. You can’t have it half way…

      The are the people who comment on Israel, who go out to rallies in support of Israel and who think and talk about Israel in their families and communities; those who donate money to Israel and who would send their children on ‘birthright’ trips to Israel while demonstrating for the rights of African American or indigenous people.

      I guess what you are saying is that some Jews are not that great towards others too. Their lack of empathy and concern is not limited to the Palestinian people. Point taken.

      • Xpat
        Xpat
        July 26, 2015, 11:46 am

        Avigail –
        Unfortunately, it’s a tougher nut than that. Obviously, individually, Jews are good and bad just like everybody else. And American Jews do have a legacy of social justice with a blind spot when it comes to Israel (PEP). But the bigger problem is that this blind spot is not just in relation to Israel, but over here too. And it relates to Jews’ sense of themselves. Jewish identity. Jews, as a community, feel the need to make the case for being different. And they see themselves (again, as Jews) as being a special case. Ideally, thus outsiderness would work a la Levinas to embrace the Other. But, unfortunately, it usually works the other way, as a self-embrace. What you are asking of American Jews is to transcend a bigger problem than PEP. I don’t think you can leverage their liberalism so as to open their eyes to Palestine. I don’t think it works that way.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 26, 2015, 11:54 am

        Thanks Elliot, very interesting indeed! The truth is I would like to shame American Jews into opening their eyes. I am aware of the specialness complex among Jews not just in the US but I encounter it in the UK and also in Australia. This very narcissistic trait is a part of the identity of the cult. It bothers me and I never liked it. I get that you say they are not as liberal as I might give them credit for. Just so you know, I don’t give them credit for this myself. It is something that they say about themselves. However, there might be some decent people out there who might be listening. I am not hugely hopeful but it’s important to speak up and hopefully those who can hear, will…

      • JWalters
        JWalters
        July 26, 2015, 7:28 pm

        “Jews are just people like all other people.”

        Exactly.

        And telling people they’re special and threatened is an old technique of manipulation and control, divide and conquer. The so-called “war on Christmas” is another example of this. It gets the flock’s feathers flapping and their brains turned off. Seems it usually comes down to somebody making money from it.

        Thanks again for this incisive article, which I feel will help many people wake up.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 6:24 am

        Thanks for the positive feedback JWalters. Sadly, this belief in differentness, victimhood and specialness, although not uniquely Jewish, is part and parcel of Jewish identity going right back to the myths of the bible. It is a part of the psychology of cult that keeps people loyal to the group and fearful of the outside world.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 26, 2015, 12:38 pm

      “Jews are just people like all other people.”

      Yes, but certainly more so than some, and, it must be admitted, less than some others.

      • Xpat
        Xpat
        July 26, 2015, 12:50 pm

        Avigail,
        Thank you for your strong article and your other excellent writings.
        I don’t see shaming as a successful strategy.
        My experience with challenging individuals who identify with the Jewish establishment has not resulted in breakthroughs.
        This Palestinian solidarity work is very important for Jews to do yo reclaim their soul. Palestinians say it’s valuable for them too. But success won’t come from showing PEP Jews just how wrong they are. In my experience, it just makes them defensive.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 26, 2015, 12:58 pm

        Good.
        Liberationists get to reclaim their soul. Anti-liberationist souls remain in limbo.

      • tidings
        tidings
        July 26, 2015, 3:05 pm

        “Jews are just people like all other people.”???

        What happened to “A Light Unto the Nations” and “The Chosen People?

        Like everybody else? Nevah!

        Perhaps Jewish foreparents indoctrinating the generations with these ideas lies at the heart of all our problems. We Jews–or at least speaking for myself–I grew up defined by exceptionalism just as Americans have–although the words are different. Or is that too simplistic, Avigail?

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 27, 2015, 6:52 am

        Not simplistic at all Tidings… I grew up on the same stuff. I think you have to have some compensation for living in such an oppressed, limiting group. Why bother sacrificing your whole life for the group and your individuality, if there isn’t some kind of a payoff at the end. It’s like in Catholicism or any group that is cultish. Life is hard but there is paradise at the end or there is some kind of special relationship with god, or something magnificent the group is destined to. Classic stuff. Believing that you are special and a ‘light unto’ others etc, is a form of compensation. I remember pondering about this in primary school. Never had anyone to talk to about this though back then…

    • bintbiba
      bintbiba
      July 26, 2015, 12:58 pm

      And you have mine back to you, Abigail!
      I promise I never spread it thin.

      Few words.
      And Thank You !!

    • rosross
      rosross
      July 27, 2015, 9:49 am

      @ Elliott,

      Is it that Jews see themselves as outsiders because they want to see themselves as outsiders, as opposed to being made to feel outsiders?

      Having Jewish friends and family around the world I know that being Jewish is a moveable feast just as it is being Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Muslim etc., but it is more common to find in followers of Judaism, in any culture, society, nationality, a belief that Jews are exceptional, i.e. superior, particularly intellectually and therefore, by necessity, must always be set apart from the broader community. No doubt because assimilation ‘taints.’

      Although how any followers of Judaism can hold onto the fantasy that membership of the religion confers exceptional intelligence in face of the consistent acts of stupidity committed by Israelis, is remarkable and certainly exceptional.

      Of course there are exceptions and I think in some cultures that is more easily done than others, i.e. largely secular cultures like Australia where people generally consider religion to be a private thing and best kept private and where you can find out what a friend’s religion is only when you attend his or her funeral.

      But Judaism is akin to the Hindu caste system in that members are taught that it is vital to ‘marry one’s own kind,’ not just to preserve the religion (or the caste) but so as not to introduce inferiority. I have been with highly intelligent, well educated, sophisticated Jews and Hindus, demonstrating real and powerful grief when faced with the prospect of a child marrying out.

      So, it is not particular to Jews but it has been made very particular in the creation of the Israeli State, a State founded on a bigoted religious belief that Jews are superior and must remain apart from non-Jews and in control of non-Jews and not the other way around.

      Where this belief is ridiculous is that Jews, like all religions, have lived and still live in dozens of countries around the world, as minorities, with absolutely no problems, so, when the one-state solution becomes a reality and non-Jews are a majority, one presumes, reason will prevail and Jews will live in that State, alongside Palestinian Christians and Muslims, just as they do in the US, Australia, UK, Canada and, well, every other country on the planet.

      Israel and Zionism have allowed the worst of Judaism to be made manifest in literal form in Palestine. And therefore lies the tragedy for Israeli Jews in particular and Jews in general.

      The sooner it is ended the better for everyone because Israel gives both Jews and Judaism a bad name.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 27, 2015, 3:29 pm

        “But Judaism is akin to the Hindu caste system in that members are taught that it is vital…”

        Holey Moley, “roross”, thank you! I never thought about it that way before, and I don’t know why, probably because I’m pretty slow on the up-take.
        But it makes perfect sense!
        The Ultra Orthodox, of course, are the “Brahmins”, and the regular Orthodox, the “Kshatriya”.
        Now, naturally Conservative Judaism forms the “Viashya”. “Reform” Judaism, as is only proper, forms the good ol’ “Sudra”, (the schmaltz of the earth, those folks) and I don’t need to actually delineate who the “Untouchables” are at this point. We know who we are.
        Anyway, I better go, I’ve got a crossing to sweep.

      • Xpat
        Xpat
        July 27, 2015, 8:39 pm

        Rosross,
        I appreciate your perspective but I don’t think that a superiority complex is at the root of endogamy. My sense of Jewish endogamy is that it’s about preserving the culture. I’ve seen Jews reject converts to Judaism/Jews-by-choice just because they weren’t born Jewish but mostly, it has to do with perpetuating a Jewish family. In recent decades, with the mainstreaming of interfaith marriage with Jewish children, non-Jews are welcomed into the community. I don’t think that in mainstream Reform congregations they are made to feel inferior.
        Whether or not perpetuating the culture is a worthy goal, it doesn’t mean that to hold to that practice means you think others are inferior. For instance, most Jews I know who are married to Jews out of conviction would not marry a Jew who had converted to Christianity. It’s not about race or the tribe.
        Israelis usually prefer to marry Israelis (or, for Israelis living in Israel they will accept immigrants to Israel who have chosen to assimilate into Israel).
        The outsiderness is an identity.

      • rosross
        rosross
        July 28, 2015, 2:32 am

        @Mooser,

        You have taken the reference to Hindu castes rather too literally but no matter. I made it simply to say that religious belief in superiority is not particular to Judaism.

        But if you want to apply a caste-system to Judaism then all non-Jews are Untouchables and should be carrying bells to warn the superior ones that we are coming because even our shadow can pollute their perfection.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 28, 2015, 3:04 pm

        “But if you want to apply a caste-system to Judaism then all non-Jews are Untouchables”

        Wow, there must be an awful lot of sexless mixed marriages out there.
        Not, I hasten to add, that there is anything wrong with that. But still, wow, what a catch 22, you can marry ’em, but you can’t touch ’em!
        It’s like a joke I heard once, where a guy dies and goes to Hell, and when he gets there Hell is one big gun store. But nobody will sell him a pistol. Finally, he demanded to know why he had to go through eternity un-armed, and was told “there’s no piece for the wicked!”

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 28, 2015, 3:54 pm

        Shoot! (no pun intended) I don’t think I told that joke right.

  29. catalan
    catalan
    July 26, 2015, 10:37 am

    “American Jews who see themselves as liberal and caring and who would fight for the rights of others but stop when it comes to the Palestinians – ” Abigail
    I care about the Palestinians but they are the ones being duped: by BDS and their leaders. Instead of reaching an agreement that both sides can accept, they are hoping for Israel to capitulate because some school sold Carerpillar stock. It’s all destroying the potential of many generations of Palestinians. This business of unrealistic hopes has been the fall of many. BDS is their same crowd that encouraged Syriza in Greece. We can all see how this worked out.

    • CigarGod
      CigarGod
      July 26, 2015, 1:02 pm

      Yep, liberation has always been an unrealistic goal. Tho, it is an odd thing for a Jew to say.

      The good news is, I stand on ground where many have fallen…forward.
      You are choosing to fall…backward.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 26, 2015, 1:17 pm

      Greece? How is that an analogy?

      “Instead of reaching an agreement that both sides can accept”?
      How does one agree to divide the pizza while the other keeps eating the pizza as they talk?

    • John O
      John O
      July 26, 2015, 2:49 pm

      I care about the Israelis but they are the ones being duped: by anti-BDS and their leaders. Instead of reaching an agreement that both sides can accept, they are hoping for Palestine to capitulate because some schools still hold Caterpillar stock. It’s all destroying the potential of many generations of Israelis. This business of unrealistic hopes has been the fall of many.

      There, fixed it for you.

    • diasp0ra
      diasp0ra
      July 27, 2015, 5:28 am

      Are you kidding me?

      Please tell me what Palestinians have left to compromise on. You’re asking us to compromise on the compromise itself, even after GENEROUSLY giving up over 70% of our historical homeland in the name of peace.

      What has Israel given up? Where has Israel compromised? Fulfilling its LEGAL OBLIGATION, is not a compromise.

      It is shocking how easily Israelis and those who support Israel blame an occupied population for the situation when the status quo and everything happening is dictated by the occupying force. Get your colonial head out of the gutter and get some perspective.

    • Avigail
      Avigail
      July 27, 2015, 6:43 am

      Anyone wishing to respond to Catalan? I have a client in 15 minutes and am rather tired of repeating myself…

    • amigo
      amigo
      July 27, 2015, 8:34 am

      “Instead of reaching an agreement that both sides can accept – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/american-recognize-duped#comment-150665” catalan.

      This from you archive.
      “To be honest with you I am not concerned about Israeli politicians. I could care less about them – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/catalan/2#sthash.IVoVALrF.dpuf” catalan

      Got news for you catalan, Palestinians care about Israeli pols.They ahve to deal with them.

      It seems to me that Israel will accept nothing but complete capitulation by the Palestinians.

      “Netanyahu: If I’m elected, there will be no Palestinian state”

      http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-election-2015/1.647212

      “It’s not too late for Israel to right its wrong and resettle Gaza, northern Samaria”.Moshe arens

      http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.667925

      “Israel’s new justice minister considers all Palestinians to be ‘the enemy’ ” Ayalet

      Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu forming the most right-wing government in his country’s history. Netanyahu’s slim majority in the Knesset, the Israeli parliament, was secured after a pact with the Jewish Home party, led by Naftali Bennett, an ultra-nationalist who draws much of his support from Israel’s settler population and rejects a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
      After all, Shaked is about to gain a cabinet post in a climate in which an Israeli former foreign minister can call for the “beheading” of disloyal Arabs with no political cost and in which warning of Arabs “voting in droves” helped Netanyahu’s Likud party win Israel’s general election earlier this year.”WP

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/05/07/israels-new-justice-minister-considers-all-palestinians-to-be-the-enemy/.

      We are dealing with a gov that accepts nothing less than complete capitulation.You dont have to believe me ??.

      “Obama officials tell Haaretz: Netanyahu would reject any Iran deal – except capitulation”haaretz

      http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.667332

    • rosross
      rosross
      July 27, 2015, 9:34 am

      @ Catalan,

      BDS will cripple Israel’s economy in the same way it did South Africa’s and in both cases, bring an end to apartheid.

      South Africa was bigger, richer, stronger and far more independent than Israel will ever be and it could not hold out.

      BDS will end Israel’s atrocities as occupier, coloniser and apartheid State.

      • catalan
        catalan
        July 27, 2015, 1:38 pm

        “BDS will end Israel’s atrocities as occupier, coloniser and apartheid State. – ” Rossros
        Fair enough. Care to specify when is this miraculous day going to arrive? You know, ballpark.
        If soon (within 5 years, say), how come we see no celebrations in Palestine; no excitement about this upcoming change in the Arab press; just despondency.
        If not soon (20-30 years) what do you say to the Plaestinians graduating high school today? That they will be 50 when this supposed miracle happens?
        I just don’t get it – if there is peace in the Middle East coming so soon, why nobody seems to be gearing for it, you know, preparing and joyously celebrating. What gives?

      • annie
        annie
        July 27, 2015, 11:44 pm

        If soon (within 5 years, say), how come we see no celebrations in Palestine

        for one thing israel murdered another palestinian teen today. the situation is unbearable catalan.

        no excitement about this upcoming change in the Arab press

        that’s not true , there are press articles about bds successes.

        That they will be 50 when this supposed miracle happens?

        it’s logical, not a miracle. and no it will not take 30 years.

        i think you’re spamming the thread again catalan.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 28, 2015, 3:43 am

        Why are you so sarcastic Catalan? I don’t understand why such a tone is necessary. However, to try and address your point anyway: it took William Wilberforce 52 years to get slavery abolished in England, and that was just in England. He spent his entire career working towards it. How long did it take women to get the vote? How long did South African apartheid last before it was finally defeated? Some things sadly take time.

        The momentum against Israel is growing. Regardless of your particular sentiments, the world is beginning to ask questions that should have been asked a long time ago, but it’s happening now. Partly this is because Israel itself is becoming more brazen and arrogant, thinking that it can get away with anything, partly because it’s harder to hide things in a world with the communication technology we have now and partly because education about Israel’s true beginning and true trajectory is gradually coming through everywhere all around the world. The momentum is growing whether you like it or not. The BDS empowers individuals who feel powerless otherwise because we can all make choices about where we spend our hard earned cash. We don’t need to be rich and powerful to not buy dates made in Israel at Marks and Spencer or Tesco’s.

        I believe we will see an end to the exclusively Jewish state, and the start of a one state for all in Palestine in my lifetime (that is unless climate change hasn’t driven everyone out of that area already!)

        Your sarcasm isn’t discouraging. It’s just a bit sad. I don’t even understand the purpose of it. I have heard this exact argument that you make from many people before. So because it takes time it means it is not happening, or that it shouldn’t happen? It is a strange line of argument.

        There seems to be fear and wishful thinking behind this kind of argument. Fear is the greatest enemy of compassion, kindness, empathy and real human progress towards the wonderful, safe and wholesome world that we are capable of creating. Overcoming fear and resisting the fear others try to instil in us, should be everyone’s main goal. How about it Catalan?

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        July 28, 2015, 2:35 am

        rosross: BDS will cripple Israel’s economy in the same way it did South Africa’s and in both cases, bring an end to apartheid.

        ———————

        1) The Israeli polity is highly nationalistic, militaristic, and moving ever-rightward. Moderate pressure won’t be nearly enough to force significant concessions let alone force the complete abandonment of Zionism. Moderate pressure will only bolster hardline Zionist nationalism, making it even more extreme, paranoid and bellicose.

        2) If BDS pressure is to become intolerably “crippling”, states will have to get involved, i.e., in addition to boycotts and divestment there would have to be a coordinated regime of state sanctions. We are a long way away from that, right now–a very long way.

        3) If such state sanctions did eventually materialize, it is highly unlikely that the states involved would adopt the goals of the official BDS movement.

        The BDS movement lists three conditions Israel would have to meet in order to have BDS removed:

        1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands occupied in June 1967 and dismantling the Wall;
        2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and
        3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194.

        http://www.bdsmovement.net/bdsintro

        The conditions attached to an international sanction regime would be the subject of negotiation, and would no doubt substantially water down those official BDS goals.

        In all likelihood, the focus would be on getting Israel to agree to negotiate in good faith (for the first time) a two-state settlement based a set of clear parameters in line with the “international two-state consensus”. Those parameters would include boundaries based on pre-1967 “Green Line” borders, mutually agreed land swaps, major settlement blocs annexed by Israel, recognition of a largely symbolic “Right of Return” with compensation, Jerusalem divided into two capitals, etc. –parameters already accepted by Palestinian leaders in past negotiations.

        It is highly unlikely that the international community would condition sanctions removal on the elimination of discriminatory laws within Israel proper .

        4.) Whatever the exact conditions attached to an international sanctions regime, if one ever were to arise, the removal of those sanctions would come through extended negotiations with Israel, just as in the case of Iran.

        If the sanctions were truly crippling, Jewish Israelis would reluctantly accept the international consensus on a two-state solution long before they would accept minority status in a democratic state encompassing Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

        That is, they would acquiesce to limitations on the Zionist dream long before accepting the complete annihilation of that dream.

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 29, 2015, 1:48 am

        Good analysis Sibiriak. But I do quibble a bit about the effectiveness of the B in BDS. There is a lot of evidence that Israel is very worried about the current boycott efforts because apparently the losses could rise to the high billions.

        Another point, the sanctions regimes against Iran, particularly those beginning in 2012, did bring Iran to the negotiating table and did bring about a pretty one-sided agreement against Iran. In other words, sanction can work very effectively, and in a relatively limited amount of time.

        Final point, US/UN/EU sanctions against Israel could be very specific in their demands. i.e. if no agreement is entered into that meets the sanctions criteria by a date certain, Israel must provide full and equal rights to all citizens including all diaspora Palestinians. While Israel could certainly refuse to comply, the continuing squeeze of heavy sanctions would eventually make that choice too unbearable. To avoid that scenario, Israel would almost certainly move directly to a two-state solution in order to prevent an imposed single state solution in which it would be outnumbered by non-Jewish citizens.

        I’m hoping EU/US/ and UN patience is running thin and that sanctions might be just around the corner. I know, I dream.

      • rosross
        rosross
        July 28, 2015, 2:42 am

        @ Catalan,

        South Africa lasted about 18 years and was bigger, richer, stronger and more independent than Israel. The BDS against Israeli apartheid is into I think its seventh or eighth year but of course Israel as a US satrapy has support SA did not have, so, as a guesstimate, between 5-6 years more and it might be less if Israel attacks the Palestinians again.

        As to what Palestinians think, I am sure having been crushed under a murderous military boot for nearly seventy years, they don’t know what to think. And no doubt given how they have been treated they find it difficult to hope.

        I suggest you study South African apartheid and the BDS movement which ended it if you want to better understand the process of such things.

        Here are the realities which make the growth of BDS gauranteed and the crippling of Israel’s economy a given:

        1. the world will not tolerate an apartheid State.
        2. Israel cannot drive out or kill the nearly six million Palestinians it holds under military occupation and the world will not tolerate any attempt – a one-state would be imposed in a nanosecond.
        3. Israel cannot keep the nearly six million Palestinians imprisoned in the Gaza concentration camp and various bantustans indefinitely – the world will not tolerate it.
        4. BDS will continue to strengthen in the US which will have an impact on Government policy and which will speed the progress to a one-state solution.

        In other words, the world will not tolerate apartheid, nor continued occupation and colonisation, nor any attempt to kill or drive out nearly six million Palestinians from their own land.

        Ergo, BDS will grow and Israel’s economy will be in ruins and it will have no option but to become a democracy where colonised and coloniser share the land.

      • catalan
        catalan
        July 28, 2015, 8:59 am

        Avigail,
        Thank you for your reply. In answer, first I don’t believe that the the boycotts led to the end of apartheid, but rather internal developments. Secondly, as a rule I don’t support any collective punishment by the weak upon the strong, ever. This is not to say that I approve the behavior of the Israeli government, or that most Israelis are not greedy racists.
        Here is the thing, I live in the United States, and I will let you in on a little secret. Most Americans are greedy, intolerant, petulant, and entitled, to a degree that is astounding. However, there will not be BDS upon America for its many sins, because everyone wants an iPhone.
        Even if one could boycott America, I would be against it, because of simple empathy. I have a child and see what it takes it to raise him properly. The goal of BDS is to make essential products unavailable for the average person, the poor and middle class person, of course, because we know that the rich one always find a way.
        I can imagine how I would feel if I lost my job because of BDS or my son couldn’t get his type of breakfast bar and threw a fit. I would feel hatred, anger, and a singular desire for revenge. Just what many Palestinians are feeling now. So BDS is just doubling up the number of angry people in a region that’s been in conflict since forever.

      • annie
        annie
        July 29, 2015, 12:49 am

        The goal of BDS is to make essential products unavailable for the average person

        there’s that little ‘rights’ issue actually.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 3:50 am

        Dear Catalan, I can sympathise with your views on the BDS. You are not the only one who feels that way about this kind of campaign. Resorting to something like BDS is unfortunately the result of a very bad situation. If the situation wasn’t as bad as it is (Israeli settler-colonialism and its gradual destruction of the Palestinian people), we wouldn’t have to do it. As a counter-measure and a tool to stopping the oppression, it is the least horrible option available. With all due respect I don’t think we can compare economic discomfort with what the Palestinians are going through. It’s obviously not an ideal way, but what can you do when such a horrendous slow genocide is being committed? At least it is not violent, which is something we cannot say about what Israel does to the Palestinians every day, not to mention the historical evils it committed. Your disbelief that BDS helped topple apartheid is your opinion and you’re entitled to. But it seems that the BDS against South Africa was a catalyst that brought internal resistance and division to a head and helped topple that regime. It didn’t cause it, but it enabled and accelerated it.

        I said I sympathised with your views about BDS, but I don’t understand them. How can you put economic hardship and discomfort ahead of what the Palestinians are going through? You say you have a child. Imagine raising your child in Ramallah or Gaza. Imagine having to escape with your child because someone decided that they want your house and you are not entitled to it because they have been homeless their whole life.

        So you are driven out at gunpoint, and if you try and protest you get punished, your child gets incarcerated and all the power to protect your child is taken away from you.

        BDS on one hand, that on the other? For me it’s a no brainer. But thank you for being honest about what you think. You are certainly entitled to your opinion regardless of whether or not I or others agree with it. However, you will not convince me and I have explained here why that is. I think you need to speak to a few Palestinian parents and see what it’s like for them, then perhaps evaluate the BDS against that…

      • ritzl
        ritzl
        July 28, 2015, 9:21 am

        Avigail, wrt catalan’s sarcasm… I think he fancies himself a bit of a MW[anti-Zionist]-whisperer. Calm-assertive explanations stemming from a position of superior understanding, factual completeness, and/or [alpha] leadership position. Unfortunately he doesn’t seem to realize that none of those required (for “whisperer” success) components are present in/behind his arguments.

        Therefore It all just comes across as a misplaced soda-straw view and a little hapless. Once you understand such reflexively defensive glibness is an inevitable symptom of the substance-free condition you are describing here in your article, you get used to it. It seems to me to be a subconscious admission of weakness. At least that’s the way I take it.

      • eljay
        eljay
        July 28, 2015, 9:44 am

        || catalan: … I just don’t get it – if there is peace in the Middle East coming so soon, why nobody seems to be gearing for it, you know, preparing and joyously celebrating. What gives? ||

        Preparations and joyous celebrations would inevitably be viewed as anti-Semitism and/or Jew-hatred. There’s no point drawing that fire any sooner than necessary.

      • talknic
        talknic
        July 29, 2015, 11:27 am

        catalan plays stupid

        //“BDS will end Israel’s atrocities as occupier, coloniser and apartheid State. – ” //

        “Fair enough. Care to specify when is this miraculous day going to arrive? “

        Did anyone know if or when BDS would work in Sth Africa? The answer is of course no, they didn’t. But it did!

        ” … blah blah blah blah ….. What gives?”

        Quite simple. Israel refuses to abide by the law.

  30. just
    just
    July 26, 2015, 12:58 pm

    Another stupendous article, Avigail!

    I think that many Americans of all sorts have been “duped”, but the scales are falling from many eyes now, and when enough voices are raised, there will be change. Your articles and responses echo Gideon Levy’s words @ the National Press Club from April~ perhaps you inspire him ;):

    “We have to face reality, and reality is that there is no chance for a change from within the Israeli society. No way… The only hope is for an international intervention, and the only hope is from this place, from Washington, from the United States, from the EU. Only from there.

    Because Israeli society is today by far too brainwashed. Life in Israel is by far too good. Israel is, let’s face, it a society which lives in denial, totally disconnected from reality. Would it be a private person, I would recommend either medication or hospitalization. Because people who lose connection to reality might be very dangerous either to themselves or to society. And the Israeli society lost connection with reality, it lost connection with the reality in its backyard, it totally lost connection with the international environment.

    Really to believe that 5 million Jews know better than 6 billion people of the world? Really believe that 5 million Jews will be able to continue to live on their sword forever? Is the one example in history in which any country lived on its sword forever? Empires! Really believing that in the 21st century it is acceptable to ignore the international law in such a way, to ignore the international institutions and to rely only on the United States — and Micronesia. ..

    …[W]e are dealing with a corrupting friendship. If there wouldn’t be an Israel lobby, Israel would be a better place to live in, Israel would be a more just place. And I think that if it wouldn’t be the Israel lobby, the US would be a better place and a more democratic place. But it’s not for me to judge the American politics. Still by the end of the day we are dealing with an enigma. Nothing can explain it. Nothing can explain how administration after administration, legislators after legislators are going in the very same way which contradicts U.S. interest in so many cases, which contradicts international law, human rights, moral values, you name it. Can it be only this small group as powerful as it is, is it the full explanation? I doubt it but that’s for you to decide, not for us in Israel. ”

    – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/sacrificed-sovereignty-washington#sthash.Zl8H8zuX.dpuf

    There’s so much more to Phil’s excellent article. If anyone missed it, I heartily recommend it! Thanks for this article and your generous participation in the thread, Avigail.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      July 26, 2015, 2:21 pm

      Yes your referenced MW article and the comments thereunder should be visited or revisited. There too is DoubleStandard in all his Zionist glory.

  31. Mondowise
    Mondowise
    July 26, 2015, 2:02 pm

    time for america and the whole damn world to realize they’ve been duped by zionism…and DO something to stop it.

    until that time, the palestinian holocaust continues as it always has in full swing in all its horrific atrocities…decade after decade after decade.

  32. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    July 26, 2015, 4:12 pm

    First I focus on the front page photo of Leonard Cohen and Ariel Sharon from the Yom Kippur war. Although historians attribute the war to Sadat’s frustration with Golda Meir’s intransigence, the war is perceived by most Jews as the last heroic war that Israel engaged in. They were attacked and under threat and it took spontaneity, resilience and initiative to turn around the war after initial losses that can be attributed to a static rather than a dynamic posture.

    Now the assertion of this post is that Israel was never heroic. It was always evil because it bulldozed over the lives of the Palestinians.

    But in fact the change in American Jewish perceptions will turn on the endlessness of the wars, rather than the cruelty of the 47-48 war. the ethnic cleansing is less relevant to the majority of American Jews than the fact that Israel has no plan to end the cycle of fighting. The wars since the 73 war, which have been waged against Gaza, Lebanon and the Palestinians have been particularly cruel, ugly and televised and it is the facts of those wars and no prospect to the end of those wars that particularly turn off the American Jewish individuals.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 26, 2015, 8:29 pm

      “They were attacked…..”

      Sure, Yonah.

    • talknic
      talknic
      July 26, 2015, 11:24 pm

      @ yonah fredman – does Ziopoop

      “Although historians attribute the war to Sadat’s frustration with Golda Meir’s intransigenc”

      Indeed, Israel had ignored the UNSC, did not resolve issues through peaceful means via Chapt VI resolutions. The Arab Regional Powers had the right to resolve them by other means, incl war

      ” They were attacked and under threat..”

      No pal, they were in breach of their legal obligations from their own belligerence dating back to 00:01 May 15h 1948, when Israel’s borders came into effect while Jewish forces were outside of those borders, where they have remained until this day.

    • rosross
      rosross
      July 27, 2015, 8:52 am

      @Yonah,

      There were no heroic wars for Israel anymore than there was heroic wars by Americans against the Indians; or heroic wars by the English against Maoris, Aborigines or Africans… the occupier and coloniser is never the hero.

      When you invade and occupy someone else’s country, you are not the hero and all wars which happen because of your invasion, occupation and colonisation are your fault, since you started it.

      No Zionist invasion to colonise Palestine, no wars! Ergo, from 1947 every war is Israel’s fault. no-one has the right to invade and occupy someone else’ country in order to colonise it.

      If Israel after 1947 had done what every other coloniser has done, create one state with equal rights for all there would have been no Yom Kippur war, or any other war.

      But, Israel chose to set up a theocratic State based on religious bigotry and a belief that Jews were superior to all others and a demand that followers of Judaism remain a majority and in control of the State with equal rights denied to non-Jews, in this case, the Palestinians, Christian and Muslim, with perhaps the odd atheist.

      So, Zionist invasion and Israeli religious bigotry are solely responsible for all wars and all violence.

  33. PeaceThroughJustice
    PeaceThroughJustice
    July 26, 2015, 4:20 pm

    “It’s time for American Jews to recognize they have been duped.”

    Even better, let’s get American gentiles to realize they’ve been duped. Then the Jewish community could work out their issues at their own pace, without causing so much damage and pain to others while they’re doing it.

  34. a blah chick
    a blah chick
    July 26, 2015, 5:38 pm

    amigo July 26, 2015, 3:17 pm
    “Cohen certainly went to Israel in ’73 and tried to join the IDF, but was asked to entertain the troops instead.” John O.

    You sure that,s not Tom Jones.

    Well, we did have an awful lot of bushy hair back in the 70’s.

    I recall that a some years ago the fledgling BDS movement was trying to get Leonard Cohen to boycott Israel and he told them to go ‘eff themselves. Still I have to wonder why he would want to stand that close to a piece of **** like Sharon. It seems he is happy and proud with this aspect of Jewish power and privilege and willfully ignorant of the pain it is causing.

    • Bornajoo
      Bornajoo
      July 26, 2015, 6:10 pm

      “I recall that a some years ago the fledgling BDS movement was trying to get Leonard Cohen to boycott Israel and he told them to go ‘eff themselves. Still I have to wonder why he would want to stand that close to a piece of **** like Sharon. It seems he is happy and proud with this aspect of Jewish power and privilege and willfully ignorant of the pain it is causing.”

      And for someone who writes incredible lyrics with their profound meanings you would think he had a genuinely universal world view. Alas no.. He’s the ultimate Progressive Except for Palestine

      • Brewer
        Brewer
        July 27, 2015, 5:53 am

        I disliked Leonard Cohen long before I disliked Israel. Many of my friends thought he was Christ on a bike but to me his “incredible lyrics with their profound meanings” lacked nourishment, seemed to be coming from a rather shallow pool.
        These days I am confirmed in my instincts for I truly believe that no-one wise to the Human condition could harbour sympathies with Israel’s behaviour unless they were profoundly ignorant of it.
        Either way, Cohen is not someone whose writing I could ever trust.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo
        July 27, 2015, 7:34 am

        Hi Brewer. He had me fooled for a while! But I agree he cannot be trusted

        Do you trust Bob Dylan?

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 27, 2015, 8:43 am

        Yep, LC is all about the presentation. Loved the presentation. But, the message? WTH! The worlds children are singing “she tied me to the kitchen chair”?
        Halleluja!

      • MRW
        MRW
        July 27, 2015, 7:05 pm

        @Bornajoo,

        OT. Re: Bob Dylan, you might enjoy the documentary “Searching for Sugar Man.” It’s on Netflix, and it’s wonderful. I watched it twice. The Chairman of Motown Records called Sugar Man (Rodriguez) one of the five greatest artists he ever worked with, and put him above Dylan. The story is really crazy, with unbelievable twists, but heartening in the end. No one in the US knows who he is, but he sold more records in South Africa for 25 years than Elvis Presley and The Beatles combined. And Rodriguez never knew it until just before the turn of the 21st C.

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo
        July 28, 2015, 4:47 am

        MRW.
        Thanks for the heads up on “searching for Sugar Man”. I’m definitely going to watch it, especially as I’ve never heard of him until you mentioned it. Sounds like an incredible story.

      • Brewer
        Brewer
        July 27, 2015, 8:48 pm

        BJ.
        “Do you trust Bob Dylan?”
        I was afraid someone would ask me that. His stance on Israel is confusing (or confused) but he is so far out in front artistically I can’t deny his talent. Same for Paul Simon whom I dislike personally but “Graceland” is a masterpiece in my book despite the exploitation involved.
        Cohen has nothing in his catalogue to compare so I can live without him.

        CG. My sentiments exactly. I reckon Cohen’s muse is Edward Bernays!

      • Bornajoo
        Bornajoo
        July 28, 2015, 4:43 am

        Brewer
        Both Bob Dylan and Paul Simon have undeniable talent and have created some of the most incredible music since the early 60s. With regards to Dylan, the answer regarding his religious beliefs are a little mysterious and might be “blowing in the wind” somewhere but I can’t find them. Here’s a clue:

        http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/13995

        But whether we agree or disagree that lc, Dylan or the Coen Bros have real talent or not I think it brings us back to Avigail’s description about how deep the brainwashing goes, even with artists who have created some of the best music, film of all time. We would like to believe that someone like Dylan would only have a universal humanitarian way of thinking where no single group is favoured at the expense of another. But I think we have to accept that however great some of these artists are, their zionist brainwashing runs at a deeper level than their artistry. Sad but true.

        I had to finally dump one lifelong Jewish friend recently who I always thought would eventually come around to the truth, being a very learned “highly intelligent” academic an’all. But he just can’t change his thinking on this one issue yet we are on the same page with everything else. It’s too frustrating to deal with him any longer. It’s like there’s some kind of denial barrier, some sort of firewall around his brain that refuses to accept real facts and truth about the i/p issue. He reminds me of those Jewish artists

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 28, 2015, 3:13 pm

        “Do you trust Bob Dylan?”

        I asked my Daddy that once, and he turned to me, looked out of his eye into both of mine and said: “Boychik, what matters is not whether you trust a man, but what you trust him with“!

  35. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    July 27, 2015, 4:34 am

    Avigail- The purest approach to the problem of Palestine is to condemn the colonialist aspects of Zionism.

    But to approach the question from a less purist and more political point of view: how are we to change hearts and minds away from this belief in a false innocence, then the question becomes political and psychological.

    I do not know what connections the young ‘uns (meaning young American Jews) have to Israel. For an old fogey like me the original text is the movie “Exodus” with Paul Newman. the direct line between the suffering/humiliation of Sal Mineo in the camps and his resurrection as an Irgun freedom fighter in Palestine is one of the more lasting impressions of that film.
    You are attempting to overcome “Exodus” by highlighting the fact that the political facts in the film were wrong regarding the Naqba, but the emotional pull of the film is really not about the Palestinians, but about the Jewish resurrection.
    But to you that’s just so much invented trauma and cult attitudes of otherness and you have nothing to say about the Jewish content of the movie “Exodus” and instead you have your purist vision of the sins of the Zionist colonialist.
    As I said, I don’t know what drives the Jewish young ‘uns into the mindset of support for Israel. I have to assume it has to do with the positive social experiences they had in the proximity to a flag of Israel. Presumably a heart warming Friday night service in the close proximity to a flag of Israel. Again the essence of the connection is not logical historical but sentimental and familial.
    Of course the politics is an important matter. My formulation: Israel has to fix its relationship to the Palestinians. (In fact I would be satisfied with a marked improvement: like giving west bank Palestinians a blue hawiya and a vote.) But a frontal attack on Jews calling them a cult of trauma obsessers and then a purist political polemic. They don’t add up to a communication with those with whom you disagree. This is a polemic to inspire your fellow anti Zionists.

    • annie
      annie
      July 27, 2015, 5:46 am

      this is a very interesting comment yonah, and quite revealing. you begin by stating “The purest approach to the problem of Palestine is to condemn the colonialist aspects of Zionism. ” whereas i might suggest wrt ‘approach’ is to acknowledge the colonialism, something rare for zionists.

      You are attempting to overcome “Exodus” by highlighting the fact that the political facts in the film were wrong regarding the Naqba

      i think you mean ‘You are attempting to overcome “Exodus” by highlighting the political lies in the film were wrong regarding the Naqba’, although in abigail’s essay, she doesn’t really address the naqba per se. also, exodus is a fictional story. so instead of dealing with reality you’ve chosen to frame your complaint around this fantasy version of reality — Mineo’s ‘resurrection’ — and abigail’s ‘inventions’ and “cult attitudes” which seems strange to me.

      who is relying on inventions? wouldn’t that be you?

      you have nothing to say about the Jewish content of the movie “Exodus”

      umm. it’s a hollywood movie you just introduced into the conversation. a movie you yourself characterized — in so many words — as non factual.

      I don’t know what drives the Jewish young ‘uns into the mindset of support for Israel. I have to assume it has to do with the positive social experiences they had in the proximity to a flag of Israel…. the essence of the connection is not logical historical but sentimental and familial. –

      what do you think might be turning off jewish youth to support for israel? might that be “logical historical” otherwise known as truth?

      a frontal attack on Jews calling them a cult of trauma obsessers and then a purist political polemic. They don’t add up to a communication with those with whom you disagree.

      perhaps not, but it does ‘add up’ to communication to those bent towards truth and those inclined towards approaching the future with a sense of reality in mind, as opposed to old hollywood movies and heartwarming sentimental “close proximity to a flag of Israel” mumbo jumbo. the youth of today are reality based. old movies based on lies — not so much.

      maybe it a gamble, betting on what’s going to draw in the future generations. i’ll bet on truth and justice and what you call ‘purist’. i agree, Israel has to fix its relationship with Palestinians. it’s just how you go about it. friday night dinners singing kumbaya watching old reruns of exodus with the israeli flag nearby? not so much.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        July 27, 2015, 6:49 am

        annie- I was responding to the headline: when will american jews recognize that they have been duped and was attempting to deal with it objectively: what is the dupe-ology of the dupe-ization of American Jews.

        As far as the current generation of american Jews who have never been duped, i hear you. but that was not the headline.

      • bintbiba
        bintbiba
        July 27, 2015, 9:56 am

        annie,

        Super comment, once more.

        …….”.maybe it a gamble, betting on what’s going to draw in the future generations. i’ll bet on truth and justice and what you call ‘purist’ .”

      • annie
        annie
        July 27, 2015, 1:44 pm

        yonah.. the current generation of american Jews who have never been duped

        there are very few of them. practically non existent as far as i am aware. at one time or another they were introduced to the kool aide.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 28, 2015, 3:42 pm

        “there are very few of them. practically non existent as far as i am aware.”

        Keep your eye on “Tzedek Chicago! You may be surprised.

    • Avigail
      Avigail
      July 27, 2015, 7:00 am

      Hello again Yonah,

      You say: “My formulation: Israel has to fix its relationship to the Palestinians.”

      OK… So how do colonisers who are still in the process of settling-colonising the indigenous people, go about fixing their relationship with the colonised? I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        July 27, 2015, 8:04 am

        Avigail- In fact you are right. it is impossible to fix it. but it is possible to move in a positive direction. currently there is no movement in a positive direction. that’s why i suggest giving the West bank palestinians citizenship. that wouldn’t fix it, but it would be a giant step in the right direction. but even that is not on the horizon.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        July 27, 2015, 12:15 pm

        @yonah

        ” that’s why i suggest giving the West bank palestinians citizenship. that wouldn’t fix it, but it would be a giant step in the right direction. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/american-recognize-duped#comment-150665

        Would your suggestion include annexing the land on which they reside?

        Assuming it does it would beggar belief that the perpetration of further crimes and consigning Palestinians to a minority position in a racist country which rules by tyranny of the majority could conceivable be seen as a step in the right direction. It would further demonstrate that even self labelled liberal zionists are not a part of the solution as they support and propose crimes against humanity. BDS is the only road to a solution in which Israel is forced to do the moral thing and cease it’s constant crimes and acts of oppression.

        As for it not being on the horizon the coveting of the west bank is certainly obvious as the theivery is openly discussed by many in the Israeli leadership. Most who do are members in the terrorist movement euphemistically referred to as settlers.

        And if you don’t see annexation as part of the process of giving them citizenship all I can say is pull the other leg.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        July 27, 2015, 12:59 pm

        old geezer- I appreciate your recoiling from the idea of Israel annexing the west bank. It would be far preferable for Israel to withdraw from the west bank with mutually agreed land swaps as envisioned in the Geneva accord of 2003 (not a real accord, but a framework negotiated by those not in power). but because this does not appear to be on the horizon it is necessary for me to say to the right wingers, “put up or shut up” if you want that land and you feel that there can be no peace, then annex it and give the Palestinians the Israeli vote.)

        As a student of history it intrigues me what would be the reaction in Israel, in the world and in the territories to such an annexation. (I believe I read Saeb Erekat’s reaction that he is not afraid of annexation: Give me the blue card, the Israeli identity card, is how I believe he put it. I consider Erekat’s reaction before yours, but nonetheless I appreciate your objections. I think your objections are at least one quarter of the reason why Israel does not go through with annexation. “the world wouldn’t accept it” is how those who see no alternative to the status quo put it. and thus since they don’t want hamas rockets lobbed from the west bank and they don’t trust the PLO to stop the lobbing of such rockets if in fact a withdrawal a la Geneva 2003 takes place, therefore there is no alternative to the status quo.

        But any such annexation would not be written in stone and my impulse in this direction is based upon the hope that in fact the west bank Palestinians would follow Erekat’s impulse and would find their way to turn the annexation into an opportunity. i think the “have your cake and eat it too” of the status quo is far worse psychologically and morally for Palestinians and israelis than the envisioned annexation. but i appreciate international law (as a model) and accept your objections if not your vehemence.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        July 27, 2015, 7:24 pm

        @yonah

        So is annexation your suggestion or not? Pick a position and own it. I’m sure that it’s not likely that you are suggesting the author is a right winger yet you offered it as your solution. In your next post you disclaimed the ownership saying you found it necessary to say to right wingers.

        As to Erakat, while you didn’t provide any link or context I’ll be willing to bet he was referring to all Palestinians not just those on the West Bank.

        Regardless as you well know any annexation without the agreement of a majority of the legal inhabitants (and Israeli settlers are not legal inhabitants) is a violation of international law.

        Trying to paint international crimes as humanitarian, or just, solutions is risible. And I doubt it’s much of a coincidence you’ve been peddling that since it was raised by a number of parties in the run up to the Israeli election.

        As to Hamas rockets the simple facts are those rockets didn’t start to fly until Israel started a campaign of extrajudicial killing. Even Israeli security officials acknwledged in interviews that Hamas had abided by the cease fire and acted to enforce it against other resistance groups in the territory. Israeli fears and angers need to be directed against their own government who are conducting an illegal enterprise.

        Despite the old saying you can likely put lipstick on a pig but it’s still going to look like a pig. Similarly you can pretend to be liberal or left but proposing additional war crimes which would benefit Israel shows your true bent.

        If there’s any left wing in you it’s solely because you ate some bbq’d chicken.

      • just
        just
        July 27, 2015, 8:38 pm

        oldgeezer~ I appreciated your entire post very much, but this made me LOL:

        “If there’s any left wing in you it’s solely because you ate some bbq’d chicken.”

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        July 28, 2015, 1:56 am

        old geezer- You expect me to faint in dread at the suggestion that I am not left wing? zionists are called nazis all the time on this site. name calling and labels are really not in the realm of ideas.

        here is the link to the article in 972 where the Erekat quote can be found.
        http://972mag.com/right-wing-mk-let-palestinians-vote-for-israeli-parliament/87050/

        It is linked back to an article in Hebrew Haaretz, which I am at this very moment trying to decipher.

        For clarity sake, this is my order of preference for resolution or steps towards improvement of the Palestinian-Zionist conflict:
        1. a negotiated settlement (along the lines of the 2003 Geneva accord)
        2. withdrawing 98% of settlers from the West Bank and leaving Israeli troops there.
        3. a unilateral withdrawal from the West Bank, except for parts of east Jerusalem.
        4. a unilateral withdrawal from the west bank including all of east jerusalem
        5. annexation of the west bank and giving full citizenship to its population

        The reason I mention #5 before the others, is because to be honest when i talk to right wingers i don’t consider the first 4 to be an option that they will take seriously that puts them on the spot. further if i propose to Avigail one of the first four which I know the Bibi government is not serious about, then I would be scoffed at, but at least when I mention #5, which we know the right wingers want only the land and not the people, so at least there is something new introduced here: a different idea than one that: Withdraw today now! i accept that withdrawal today and now is a better alternative. Not going to happen and not very interesting to discuss. Not in the realm of ideas. In the realm of dogma. Which fits right in with your tendency to label me.

        I feel that Israel is very static and a static defense will not work in this situation. If your primary objection to annexation is the will of the indigenous occupied people, then let that be the first step in my proposal. the next prime minister of israel states: the status quo sucks. we cannot negotiate with hamas or feckless fatah, therefore the path we see is annexation and with this in mind we ask the int’l community to conduct an election: yes or no to annexation and citizenship. it isn’t going to happen in the near future, but yes, i think this offer of honesty: we hate the status quo and wish to improve the situation and we are offering full citizenship to the west bank population, yes, i think this is a dynamic response. and even if the election is lost and the population votes 70% to 30% against annexation putting us back to square one, Israel will show initiative and dynamism rather than its current status quo defensive posture. also there will be that 30% to be built up upon.

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 28, 2015, 3:02 pm

        Two problems with this proposal:
        1. It excludes Gaza’s 1.9 million Palestinians.
        2. It excludes the Right of Return of several million more expat Palestinians, at least a million of whom still reside in refugee camps.

        The beauty or evil of this proposal is that it would legalize and make permanent the ethnic cleansing of all these Palestinians, including those in Gaza who would be stuck in its vast outdoor prison.

        Nice try.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 28, 2015, 3:07 pm

        Good response to Yonah, Irishmoses. Thanks!

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 28, 2015, 5:04 pm

        Avigail: “Good response to Yonah, Irishmoses. Thanks!”

        You’re most welcome. However, there’s a general lesson to learned in my response: Don’t trust seemingly reasonable/innocuous postings. e.g.

        – Yonah’s was intended to sound like a reasonable form of compromise by a fellow liberal person anguishing for a solution to this intractable problem. Sorry, it’s just another tactic from hasbara-central.

        – A more subtle version I suspect is “Ruth-Anne’s” comment about half way through this thread. She said: “…But surely it also applies to the USA? That is a settler-colonial state, complete with all the crimes against the indigenous people that went into establishing that country.” Ruth-Anne, now there’s a name anyone would trust,. And a first-time poster who attacks the US as a great sinner while trying to show poor Israel isn’t doing anything worse than the prior and present actions of the world’s greatest democracy. Now that’s a clever ploy because it diverted the thread (with your unwitting assistance) into a discussion of the crimes of colonialism which reinforced the idea that Israel isn’t doing anything any other good country has also done.

        I’ve been discussing, arguing, and writing about the I-P issue for at least 30 years, here in the US. I’ve seen no evidence that prior US sins against its native peoples, or guilt over that conduct is somehow related to any misguided individual’s support for Israeli misconduct. The answers and arguments I get instead reflect years of hearing a very well-crafter and clever but very false narrative. As I said in my earlier response to you,

        “US support for Israel has NOTHING to do with some sort of residual guilt complex over our treatment of our native peoples in the mid-19th century. It has everything to do with Zionist organization skills and brilliance in creating and dominating the past and current narratives in our media and political spheres, and in creating immense influence through brilliant lobbying strategy and tactics.”

        That same brilliance can be seen in many of the MW “reasonable” responses we get from seemingly reasonable posters. The aim is often to divert rather than respond substantively.

        Call me a cynic, but I’ve been around this shit too long to take any of it on face value.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 28, 2015, 5:27 pm

        Exactly correct.
        Of course We all knew Yonah had a silly punchline coming. He always does. Ruthann, tho…sounded sweet, until she smiled even more sweetly…as she slipped the cat turd in our pocket. That’s when I stopped reading. These characters feel any behavior is approved by God…in service to The Cause.

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 28, 2015, 5:27 pm

        Avigail,

        My last posting looks a bit pedantic even to me. My point wasn’t to criticize or lecture you but rather to point out that there is a lot of well-disguised hasbara on MW that’s intended to change the subject. I hate seeing your brilliant and elegantly crafted article buried or diminished by clever ploys and diversions from hasbara-central.

        Thanks for taking the time to respond so generously on this thread.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 3:06 am

        Good morning Irishmoses,

        (It’s Wednesday morning here and the conversation still going. Incredible.)

        Thanks for your comment. I didn’t think your previous comment was pathetic, but thanks nonetheless for being so kind to me.

        I do recognise these characters (Hasbara types and other Zionists) quite quickly too. I am a psychotherapist and in my profession I am trained to notice not only the content of what is being said, but also the process. So I can see. Plus I have been around this for the past 13 years to different degrees.

        My preference is to give these people the benefit of the doubt. They are living in an adversarial world where they expect enemies who hate them everywhere. I don’t hate them, although I can feel angry at them sometimes. In therapy we know that if you offer clients more of the same, the same environment that they are used to, no change can ever happen. For us to change we need to be in a different environment and encounter things we do not expect. This leads to confusion but confusion is often what precedes change, or at least some soul-searching in those who are capable of it. BTW, not everyone is capable of it. It depends on the person’s brain.

        If there is any chance of getting through to someone like that, it won’t be through arguing content. They know what they believe and facts aren’t going to change that as the cliché goes… I recognise the ones from Israel in particular having grown up there and recognising the particular ‘flavour’ of their narrative even if their English is perfect.

        I do have to say that they do tend to repeat the same lines of argumentation and go around in circles. This is because Zionist mythology has as much intellectual leverage as apartheid South Africa did or any other criminal system or individual for that matter.

        I deeply appreciate your passion to protect what I say and make sure it does not disappear into oblivion because of such characters. However, they have been trying to silence me and bury what I say for around 14 years now, and they haven’t been successful. I have no intention of going silent. They really don’t like that I am ‘airing the dirty laundry’ and I get that.

        I have worked and still do at present, with survivors of cults. I recognise the hatred, confusion and aggression with which cult members try to bring back ‘apostates’ or people who leave the cult and who reveal cult secrets to the world. It’s a familiar pattern. With me they try the guilt and fear buttons, hoping that I still have them. Then when these fail, they start to attack my character and simply use insults or even threats. It’s always the same. Those who have enough self control to remain ‘nice’ and ‘civilised’ longer, are actually the worst.

        Cults, particularly those who do wrong and try to hide it, are incredibly intellectually impoverished. The members and ‘enforcers’ only have the official teachings to go by and nothing else. They are not really allowed to think for themselves so they simply regurgitate what they are taught, sometimes actually deluding themselves that these are their own thoughts and ideas. Sadly, their world is extremely narrow. So is the world of Zionists, even those who sadly believe themselves to be nice and Left-wing, such as Yonah here. I am well aware that he never actually engaged with anything I said about the ethnic cleansing of Palestine or the simple immorality of creating a Jewish ‘safe haven’ at the expense of another people and the suffering that this has been causing. Absolutely not a word from him about that. I am so familiar with this and it is so typical. You see no real compassion or real depth of courage to engage with the colossal crime that Israel is. If they could engage properly, this would cause such an identity crisis that they fear their whole world would collapse.

        At the end of the day all cult members everywhere, and that includes Zionists, are people who live in fear. Although I am not that fond of them, naturally, I do feel for people who live their entire lives in fear and don’t even have the ability to see that they do. Don’t you think it’s terribly sad? But like I said in my article I do hold people responsible for the consequences of their actions, or lack of action, irrespective. Being afraid isn’t an excuse to sacrifice other people. Yet people do this all the time. Mothers allow their children to be abused or victimised every day in ‘ordinary’ families out there because they are afraid. When someone suffers every human being has a moral obligation to do whatever they can to overcome their fear and do the right thing. So I hold adults responsible regardless of how frightened they are. I can understand their actions but do not accept them.

        I prefer to treat all Hasbara agents here as the human beings they are. But then if they start attacking or are clearly not showing any signs of compassion or real engagement with what I say, I withdraw myself from engagement with them. I grew up in a very argumentative culture in Israel. It was all about ‘one up-manship’ and I don’t do that anymore. I want to form connections with people. If they avoid that, this is their loss.

        Zionism is bound to be defeated. The momentum is accelerating. Any philosophy or way of life that is based on unreality and on an immoral and/or criminal foundation is bound to topple itself. It is self-destructive by nature. So I know that Zionism doesn’t have much time left.

        My problem of course is what they are doing to the Palestinians in the meantime, and the fact that we might not want to wait as long for them to do it themselves. I also have fears about the Massada complex (or murder-suicide: ‘I can’t have her so no one will’) that I think Bornajoo might have mentioned he has as well, albeit not in these exact words.

        Anyway, a really long response that is simply intended to thank you for your support and reassure you that I, or what I have to say, aren’t going anywhere any time soon. It’s really nice to know that I have friends like you out there. Please keep talking and expressing yourself everywhere you can. People need to hear what they don’t want to hear.

        (BTW, are you Irish, or is this just a screen name you have chosen for other reasons? My partner is Irish.)

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 29, 2015, 9:45 am

        Avigail,
        A fascinating and thought-provoking reply–a view from the therapist’s side of the couch.

        I think empathy is really a key point. It’s too easy to allow yourself to become hardened and cynical (as I’ve become) as a result of reading and responding in hundreds of often heated discussions. We see that on both sides here. Anger leads to allegations of antisemitism or conversely, allegations of being a hasbarite tool or troll, or worse. Both are ad hominems and inappropriate unless there is strong evidence in support of the allegation.

        I started on MW I think about 5 years ago thinking I could persuade others about the validity of the Palestinians’ claims and the need to end their suffering. I found it’s an uphill battle because both sides are really attached to their narratives (myself included) and we resist any attempt to accept the other’s narrative. While I believe fervently in my (our) narrative, I’m baffled about how to get through the psychological barriers to really affect some change in my opponents who, in my view, are often misguided and misinformed. Certainly logic and rational discourse don’t work except in maybe a few cases. I suppose all you can do is try to remain civil and hope eventually you have some impact.

        Some of those who I’ve sparred with over the years, Yonah is a good example, I thought were genuinely open and capable of change (I’m aware of the irony in my statement). But sometimes the arguments and accusations get too heated and and you get angry and give up. That happened awhile back with me and Yonah. The good news is that based on the openness you’ve created on this thread, I’ve made an attempt to reopen the dialogue between Yonah and me if we can both agree to remain civil and committed to a minimum of snarkiness. We’ll see how that goes.

        As to my “Irish Moses” handle, no I’m not Irish. I was born and raised in the US and live in Southern California. I picked that name in honor of my father who led an air transport operation back in 1948-49 in which thousands of Jews from around the world were flown to the nascent state of Israel. David Ben Gurion was said to have called my dad the Irish Moses because all these Jews were returning to Israel on the wings of my father’s silver eagles (the old, 4 engine C54 or DC4 prop planes).

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 29, 2015, 9:56 am

        I don’t know, man.
        Average Man believes there is a way to change minds, and effect change that way.
        Sales Man, believes amateurs convince, while pro’s sort…and then you take the one’s who immediately – get it – and make change with them.

        Most of us kind-hearted Liberation-minded folks tho…waste all our time trying to convince one unconvincable prospect…like Yonah, Jon s, Catalan, etc.

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 29, 2015, 10:05 am

        Avigail,
        Here’s a link regarding the origin of “Irish Moses” and my father’s link to Israel in its formative years. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Maguire.html

        Despite that history and his later award of valor from the Simon Wiesenthal Center, my father was very critical of Israel in his later years and refused an invitation to return there for its 50th anniversary. Obviously, that family history is what piqued my interest in the I-P topic and led to my presence here on MW.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        July 28, 2015, 2:08 am

        oldgeezer- here is the hebrew noam sheizaf article in haaretz on the topic

        http://www.haaretz.co.il/misc/1.1212430

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        July 28, 2015, 2:13 am

        @yonah

        Yeah thanks for the translation yonah. Don’t you have a recent bombing of women and children to defend?

        ps… I don’t speak Aramaic or Russian either.

        pps. I apologize, I shouldn’t have limited you women and children. Perhaps it’s shooting unarmed youth in the back.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 28, 2015, 3:45 pm

        Yonah: “As a student of history….”

        So glad I bought that three-pack of screen-wipes.

      • just
        just
        July 28, 2015, 5:32 pm

        Thanks irishmoses and CigarGod!

        (golly, this thread is deservedly loooong)

      • talknic
        talknic
        July 28, 2015, 9:09 pm

        @ yonah fredman

        “For clarity sake, this is my order of preference for resolution or steps towards improvement of the Palestinian-Zionist conflict:
        1. a negotiated settlement (along the lines of the 2003 Geneva accord)”

        Swapping non-Israeli territory for non-Israeli territory so Israel can keep non-Israeli territory? Get it thru your fat head. Israel has not legally acquired one square inch of territories it wished to swap.

        What say I claim your back yard, them tell you I’ll swap it for part of your front yard and part of your house. Seems you’d be &*&^%$ stupid enough to say yes. The Palestinians aren’t that stupid

        “2. withdrawing 98% of settlers from the West Bank and leaving Israeli troops there.”

        Why not ALL Israeli settlers? After all they’re not in Israel. And why leave any Israeli troops there? Palestinians do not want, nor do they deserve to be occupied

        “3. a unilateral withdrawal from the West Bank, except for parts of east Jerusalem”

        NONE of it is Israeli! Simply %^&( of out of ALL non-Israeli territories for once! Adhere to the law

        “4. a unilateral withdrawal from the west bank including all of east jerusalem”

        The UNSC demands withdrawal from all territories Occupied in the 1967 war ” including Jerusalem”. Not E or W Jerusalem or some of Jerusalem, but ” Jerusalem” (UNSC res 476 puts it nicely)

        “5. annexation of the west bank and giving full citizenship to its population”

        Legal annexation requires the consent of those to be annexed. It has become Customary International Law, in great part because of the USA who even in the mid 1800’s adopted the Legal Custom of seeking the consent/agreement/treaty with those who were to be annexed, see Texas, Alaska ( it did not become a part of the US until long after it was bought), Hawaii. By adopting that Legal Custom the US was instrumental in that Legal Custom eventually passing into Customary International Law.

        NONE of your proposals mention Gaza. Nor do any of your proposals have any legal basis, nor are they fair or in anyway reasonable. For example: They do not mention the return of non-Jewish Israeli citizens to Israel. Strange isn’t it that the Palestinians fight for the return of Israelis to Israel. Yet you don’t even mention them

        You don’t mention any compensation for 67 years of belligerence. No compensation for 67 yrs of dispossession. No compensation for 67 yrs of wanton destruction. No compensation for 67 years of exploiting non-Israeli resources. No compensation to Israelis who have for 67 yrs been duped into thinking they are living in Israeli territory.

        You don’t mention the reasons Israel cannot now afford to adhere to the law and must bargain

        “Withdraw today now! i accept that withdrawal today and now is a better alternative. Not going to happen and not very interesting to discuss. Not in the realm of ideas. In the realm of dogma. Which fits right in with your tendency to label me”

        Deservedly! There’s actually nothing, not one legal, logical or moral reason, for Israel or any of its illegal settlers or any IDF to remain in ANY non-Israeli territory.

        “I feel that Israel is very static and a static defense will not work in this situation”

        Odd Israel is still pro-actively dispossessing, slaughtering, doing everything within its power to become the Greater Israel of myth

        “If your primary objection to annexation is the will of the indigenous occupied people … “

        ‘indigenous’ – irrelevant! They only have to be valid citizens of the territory

        ” … then let that be the first step in my proposal. the next prime minister of israel states: the status quo sucks. we cannot negotiate with hamas or feckless fatah, … “

        Hamas/Fatah also irrelevant. The PLO is the representative of the Palestinian people, regardless of their political choices.

        ” … therefore the path we see is annexation and with this in mind we ask the int’l community to conduct an election: yes or no to annexation and citizenship…”

        It would have to be a referendum by the people. It’s called self determination. They have to decide to hold it!

        “it isn’t going to happen in the near future, but yes, i think this offer of honesty: we hate the status quo and wish to improve the situation and we are offering full citizenship to the west bank population, yes, i think this is a dynamic response. and even if the election is lost and the population votes 70% to 30% against annexation putting us back to square one, Israel will show initiative and dynamism rather than its current status quo defensive posture”

        It ain’t ever gonna happen while Zionism holds sway

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 4:00 am

        Dear Talknic, thank you for your detailed response to Yonah’s ludicrous ‘proposal’, echoing the so-called Left in Israel. Glad that you took it on. I couldn’t stomach it…

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        July 28, 2015, 9:27 pm

        irishmoses- the last time we conversed on the pages of mw you called me a troll and cut off all conversation. why should i start again?

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 29, 2015, 1:52 am

        Good point. Thanks for the reminder.

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 29, 2015, 2:52 am

        Upon reflection Yonah, I believe I used a more elegant term than “troll”. Perhaps “insufferable, impenetrable hasbarite”?

        As I recall, you had accused me of being an antisemite which, for some odd reason, I took offense. However, in the spirit of the well over-the-top Kumbaya spirit of this very long thread (if I see another thank you, I will vomit on the screen), I offer you a humble truce. One of joint civility with a minimum of snark.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 4:26 am

        Sorry to cause you nausea Irishmoses… :)

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 29, 2015, 10:16 am

        A lame and very late night attempt at humor that looks less than funny seen in the light of early morning. My apologies.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        July 28, 2015, 9:57 pm

        I understand that the role of your protest movement (or maybe any protest movement) is to set your goal and full speed ahead. but when i hear your vision of Israel recognizing the right of return, then I think you are waiting for the day that some soldier not Israeli controls Lod/Lydda airport and the only circumstances where I see that are after a major war, so to me your advocacy of such single mindedness is in fact advocacy of a major war.

        Yossi Beilin signed an accord a fake accord a piece of paper in 2003, attended by the int’l community. that is the bridge to a better future. bibi is not interested. I think abbas is more interested in that accord than bibi is. so in my book bibi is the bigger obstruction on the road to the better future.

        Meanwhile, because of the Zionist dictum: It is in our hands, I am interested in what unilateral moves Israel might take. Therefore I am attracted to the idea of annexation and full citizenship. It is a dynamic unilateral move. It is an interesting idea.

        Under the Beilin-Rabbo accord of Geneva, Gaza gets a fair shake. this idea of annexation does not give Gaza a fair shake.

        On the topic of the movie Exodus and the novel, I offered up what I had to say in the spirit that Avigail Abarbanel offers up her personal experiences. but she is in a friendly place and I am in an unfriendly place so for me to offer up my thoughts on Dov Landau is foolish. The psychology of the Jew in 1961 is different than the psychology in 2015. as they say in the yiddishe shprach, in the mama loshen. (but spelled like the german:) genug.

        so let me just end by saying, am yisrael chai. the jewish people live. hannah arendt believed in a jewish people and she had a very anti ben gurion attitude, but people cite her remembering the anti b.g. attitude but forgetting her consciousness of jewish peoplehood.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 4:04 am

        OK, Yonah, got it. So no compassion at all, only cold intellect, and loyalty to the people above all else. I grew up with it and grew out of it. Hannah Arendt by the way, also learned a universal lesson from the holocaust that she considered a crime not against Jews but against humanity. She believed in ‘never again’ to everyone not just ‘never again to us’ which is the lesson that you and I were brought up on. At the end of the day you have to live with your own conscience. So I do wish you all the very best.

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        July 28, 2015, 11:54 pm

        talknic: “[yonah fredman:] 1. a negotiated settlement (along the lines of the 2003 Geneva accord)”

        Swapping non-Israeli territory for non-Israeli territory so Israel can keep non-Israeli territory? Get it thru your fat head. Israel has not legally acquired one square inch of territories it wished to swap.
        ————————

        Legally acquired or not, that (pre-1967) territory has been de facto acquired and that acquisition has been recognized by practically the entire international community as well as the Palestinian leadership. Even Hamas has stated its willingness to accept an Israeli state within pre-1967 borders, i.e. including territory not legally acquired in 1947-48.

        Crucially, the BDS movement itself calls for:

        Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands occupied in June 1967 and dismantling the Wall;

        [emphasis added]

        The deliberate, explicit inclusion of that date–June 1967–means that reversing Zionist occupation and colonization of Arab lands that occurred before that date is not a BDS goal.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        July 29, 2015, 1:04 am

        “The psychology of the Jew in 1961 is different than the psychology in 2015. as they say in the yiddishe shprach”

        But in English “is different from the psychology in 2015″ is correct.

        “so let me just end by saying, am yisrael chai.”

        Why does Indian spiced tea keep coming into the question?

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 4:14 am

        RoHa, at the risk of making a fool of myself becasue I missed a joke and just on the off chance that you really didn’t understand the phrase Yonah had used: It’s Hebrew for ‘The Jewish people lives’. Chai in Hebrew is lives pronounced not like the Indian tea but like in loch (as in Loch Ness) in Scottish English. There is such an obsession with it that even non-religious Jews would sometimes wear a neacklace with a pendant that says in Hebrew, ח״י ‘alive’. It’s often used as an acronym as well. The two Hebrew letters ח and י that make the word Chai, in Hebrew numerology make the number 18. This is almost a sacred, magical, number for those who believe in this stuff because it means Chai, alive…

        What Yonah is triumphing here, and triumphant is the sentiment behind this phrase, is the idea that the survival of the Jewish people comes ahead of all else and ahead of everyone else.

        Yonah’s political analysis or argumentation is pointless when you get this idea. I was brought up on it too. The survival of the Jewish people is an obsession in Israel and among Zionist Jews. No cost to anyone or even to Jews (paradoxically) is too high in the name of survival. At the end of the day all the pseudo-intellectual ‘debates’ with Zionists about Israel and Palestine boil down to this belief. This is why there is no one there to really talk to. This obsession with survival of the Jewish people at all cost, means shutting down any possible empathy for the victims of the state of Israel. To me the discussion really ends here. I am so grateful that Yonah couldn’t resist revealing the truth about where he really stands in terms of his values and belief system.

        From here on, the discussion needs to be about what is the price that is worth the survival of the Jewish people. This is what I really want Zionists to be honest about, and they are only honest about it when they are careless or really pushed to the corner and have nothing more to say. Benny Morris already said it years ago. He said that although the Nakba was a terrible thing, it was an OK price to pay for the survival of the Jews. Go argue or debate with that. I am so grateful to Yonah for being honest about it… But we are not the same. I don’t believe that my personal existence is for the purpose of the survival of the Jewish people and in any case I don’t think that it’s OK to inflict suffering on others for that purpose. There it is. I keep saying that it’s really simple because it is, albeit extremely tragic and pathological.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 29, 2015, 9:09 am

        There is one step further that you didn’t mention.
        It has been stated by some and hinted at by others.
        If Israel is to be lost…they will use the bomb to take everyone with them.

      • diasp0ra
        diasp0ra
        July 29, 2015, 4:57 am

        Thank you Talknic for your response to Yonah. Once again this shows the true disconnection of Zionists from the realities of what’s going on on the ground. Not a single mention of Gaza or the refugees, nothing on compensation etc. They still want to solve this “conflict” at our expense in a manner that is completely convenient and easy for them.

        Complying with the law is not a compromise, it’s not a “step” forward. It’s the bare minimum, it’s the baseline, and Israelis treat this compliance as if it’s a boon and they are to be thanked for it.

        With that being said, I do see the West Bank, or at least areas C of the West Bank being annexed within the next few years. Areas C are large in territory but sparse in population, barely holding 4% of the Palestinian population. So it would be perfect for Israel. But as soon as they do that, it’s goodnight Irene for the 2 state solution, not to give the implication that it was ever alive, but now the international community will be forced to acknowledge it and break the taboo of talking about alternative solutions (1 state).

        As terrible as it may sound, the annexation of the West Bank almost seems like a prerequisite to any real talk about the one state solution. If it takes that, then so be it. I don’t say this as some observer from far away who will not be affected, I am saying this as someone who would be annexed in this new situation.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 29, 2015, 9:20 am

        Yep.
        Every thing is an absurd freaking transaction.

        – I’ll think about giving you some consideration in the future…as long as you behave while your civilization is starved, bombed and whithers away –

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        July 29, 2015, 5:34 am

        I think you are waiting for the day that some soldier not Israeli controls Lod/Lydda airport and the only circumstances where I see that are after a major war, so to me your advocacy of such single mindedness is in fact advocacy of a major war.

        Some logic he’s got, Mr. Fredman.
        So if I tell him it’s gonna rain with a 100% probability, it’s “advocacy of major rainfall”, is it?
        There was a chance to settle it and continue living in relative peace over other people’s land. You guys blew it big time. Now you know what is coming after 68 years of your continuous war of aggression: either Palestine or the genocide of the owners of your land. A third solution doesn’t look probable.
        As for advocacy of major war, Mr Fredman is forgetting that by supporting Zionism he is being a willing accessory to 68+ years of war of aggression, international terrorism and ongoing genocide.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        July 29, 2015, 5:41 am

        Avigail- The first time I heard the phrase “Am Israel Chai” was in the context of the Shlomo Carlebach song, where the lyric goes, “od avinu chai, am yisrael chai” or “our father still lives” and “the jewish people live”. this was an echo of the verse where Joseph after hiding his identity from his brothers, reveals his true identity and his first question is: “does our father still live?” and in the song Carlebach was expressing that our father still lives and the Jewish people live. There is nothing triumphalist about the song. It is an expression of hoping one can progress despite a long period of absence (exile, hiding and loss). is my father still alive? yes. he is still alive and the jewish people are (still) alive.

        It is true that this expression is used by many who wish to assert something triumphant or triumphalist but that is not my usage. I used this expression to express my opposition to your opposition to the existence of the Jewish people: they are a cult. and even though you do not advocate violence you wish the jewish people (as a group, but not as individuals once they are reeducated) to cease to exist. I am opposed to that and i use the phrase am Yisroel Chai, to assert my opposition. I also used it to express my opposition to some of the commenters here who say that the idea of a Jewish people is also part of the duping process.

        Here is the quote from Hannah Arendt in which she uses the phrase “the jewish people”:
        (it was in reaction to the storm created by her book or articles on the Eichmann trial and an invitation from the American Council for Judaism as a type of home for her in that storm.)

        You know that I was a Zionist and that my reason for breaking with the Zionist organization was very different from the anti-Zionist stand of the Council: I am not against Israel on principle, I am against certain important Israeli policies. I know, or believe I know, that should catastrophe overtake this Jewish state, for whatever reasons (even reasons of their own foolishness) this would be the perhaps final catastrophe for the whole Jewish people, no matter what opinions every one of us might hold at the moment.”

        What do you think Arendt would think of your “Jewish people is a cult” meme? You seem honest enough to admit that she would scoff at it.

        I respect Judah Magnes’s critique of the Jewish state in the making that he rejected in 1948 because of the tensions that are added to the world’s headaches and because of the suffering inflicted on the Palestinian people. Yet in the battle between Magnes and Ben Gurion, BG won and it is practicality rather than triumphalism that attracts me to the idea of west bank annexation. in the article in Haaretz, Saeb Erekat more or less says “show me a complete plan and then I will react to it.” he does not reject it as ludicrous. Why do you use the word and he doesn’t? Because he is a practical man. Sufian Abu Zaida (the other PLO rep quoted in the article) rejects the separation between Gaza and the West Bank. “there are no easy solutions here” he says. no shortcuts, in other words. But he does not use the term ludicrous. that’s a word for compassionate sociologists.

        I agree with Sibiriak’s comment that one can be supportive of the Jewish people’s will to live and still be duped about Israeli policy. I think an either/or a black or white way of thinking is a way of not thinking, a way to promote dogmatic singlemindedness and close off discussion. yours is not the path of compassion but of polemic.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 7:32 am

        Yonah, my last words to you on this thread:

        At the moment the only people facing annilation in this context are the Palestinians and that is at the hands of the Jewish state. Since Israel is the perpetrator and the Palestinians are the victims, I am with the Paletsinians. It is very simple.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 7:34 am
      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 29, 2015, 9:27 am

        Give me a break!
        If the racist zionist state of israel ceases to exist, that will be the end of Judaism?
        I thought you were a student of history.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        July 29, 2015, 6:46 am

        Thanks, Avigail. I’ve seen the phrase a few time, but I didn’t know exactly what it meant. Instinct told me it was deserving of mockery anyway.

        On a more interesting and important topic, did you see that thirteen new species of spider have been discovered in Australia? (As if we didn’t have enough already.)

        They include a type of trapdoor spider, and tarantulas as big as a Chieftain tank a hand.

      • can of worms
        can of worms
        July 29, 2015, 7:08 am

        @diasp0ra,
        “the annexation of the West Bank almost seems like a prerequisite to any real talk about the one state solution.”

        I feel near you diasp0ra.

        However, discussion of the 1ss is purely a matter of intelligent organization and (as I am just beginning to see) of making our own people conscious of our unconscious behavior. It’s not dependent on what the Israelis do. On the contrary. The 1ss is a conversation to be injected into the Israeli veins while they are sleeping. I spy immense untapped power on the inside. There is I think at least one organization for a one state solution,on its advisory board are people like Ali Abunimah, Ilan Pappe, Omar Barghouti etc etc etc. I’m just being task oriented. I guess i don’t really have use for psychological explanations for Euro-racism.

      • justicewillprevail
        justicewillprevail
        July 29, 2015, 7:56 am

        Yonah, you wilfully misconstrue and misrepresent what Avigail has said, and then proceed, as usual, to build an elaborate edifice of straw upon which you sit in order to claim that you have an imagined moral high ground. You haven’t answered any of her points, but have substituted your own slanted version of her ideas and proceeded to remonstrate with them. You want to define the terms of the dispute in your frame of reference and ignore Avigail’s, thus demanding she fits into your world view where you can do the lecturing. You are tilting at windmills and want the approval of the crowd. It’s the same old attitude you see repeated endlessly here by zionists.
        BTW you either don’t know the meaning of the word ‘polemic’ or are just attempting a cheap shot at denigrating her very thoughtful and consistently well-argued pieces. You could learn a lot if you dropped the defensive posturing and opened up to listen to what she is saying. Then you might have some dialogue and communication.

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 29, 2015, 10:37 am

        +1
        Perfect.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 29, 2015, 2:10 pm

        Yonah, I just can’t get over your ability to communicate, to reach out to people, to establish a level of trust and some likability, and then find common ground.
        And one thing about you, Yonah, you may not always make an agreement, but you always make a friend!

        Yup, Yonah, you sure can accomplish a lot in one thread.

      • can of worms
        can of worms
        July 29, 2015, 8:09 pm

        @ CofW, you have not made your case. What “practical” thing(s) are you talking about. What “immense power” on the “inside” do you “spy”. I assume you know civil protest is suppressed. brutally. Please be specific, thx.

        @ DS: “I just think that it really is something to leave your country and then go around agitating for it to be dissolved. It’s disgraceful to do that if you live there, but when you have indemnified yourself against the consequences…that’s just plain cowardly.” You are right. I just think that it is really something to live in another country [U.S.] and go around agitating for Israel. It’s disgraceful to do that if you don’t live there, and when you have indemnified yourself against the consequences…that’s just plain cowardly.

        @ DS: “there are so many people who think you have no right to exist.”

        — We call it “recycling”. We’ll take the good things and throw out the bad. We’ll take the investments and industries (built on Palestinian backs) and we’ll destroy the ideological institutions.

        @jwp: “if you opened up…to what she is saying.”
        Yes–Open big. we’re just going to drill at all those Zio-cavities, and then you can smile.

        –@ CofW, pls pick up your things and go home right now, thanx

      • talknic
        talknic
        July 30, 2015, 8:49 pm

        @ yonah fredman “…. when i hear your vision of Israel recognizing the right of return, then I think you are waiting for the day that some soldier not Israeli controls Lod/Lydda airport and the only circumstances where I see that are after a major war, so to me your advocacy of such single mindedness is in fact advocacy of a major war”

        A) Get it thru your thick skull. Only non-Jewish ISRAELI citizens ethnically cleansed by Israel have a right of return to Israel. People cleansed by Jewish forces from non-Israeli areas, do not have RoR to Israel, they have RoR to Palestinian territory.
        B) Even if Israel did become majority non-Jewish what makes you think it cannot be named Israel?
        C) “war” the sick Ziomind, Ziosupremism or war.

        “… in my book bibi is the bigger obstruction on the road to the better future”

        Bibi is only the most recent of consecutive Israeli leaders who have ALL been a hindrance to peace. NONE have had Israel withdraw from ANY non-Israeli Palestinian territory.

        “Meanwhile, because of the Zionist dictum: It is in our hands, I am interested in what unilateral moves Israel might take. Therefore I am attracted to the idea of annexation and full citizenship. It is a dynamic unilateral move. It is an interesting idea.”

        It is a stupid illegal Zionutter idea. Unilateral annexation is the same as acquiring territory by war. Only bilateral annexation, by agreement with those to be annexed is legal in today’s world.

        “so let me just end by saying, am yisrael chai. the jewish people live”

        We live. Wonderful. Now about Israel, the rogue state, in breach of International Law, the UN Charter and the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, how about it gets the f&*^% out of all other folks territories for once and takes all its illegal settlers with it back to Israel. Never been tried!

      • talknic
        talknic
        July 31, 2015, 3:45 am

        @ Sibiriak “Legally acquired or not, that (pre-1967) territory has been de facto acquired and that acquisition has been recognized by practically the entire international community “

        Care to cite that recognition? Fact is, they haven’t. Until territory is legally annexed by consent of the legitimate residents of the territory to be annexed, it quite simply is not Israeli. It is expressly prohibited for states to recognize territories acquired by force or any means of coercion http://pages.citebite.com/y1f0t4q1v4son

        Not having been mentioned by the UN/UNSC leads people to believe it is Israeli. Fact is, the UN/UNSC cannot pass resolutions against members for what they have done prior to membership. It is never the less, still illegal to acquire territories by war

        The Palestinian offers have been to cede those territories captured and occupied by Israel prior to 1967 in exchange for peace. In exchange for peace! It hasn’t happened.

        “Crucially, the BDS movement … etc etc … means that reversing Zionist occupation and colonization of Arab lands that occurred before that date is not a BDS goal”

        Irrelevant to the legality of territorial ownership/transfer. Until there is peace and until there is legal bilateral annexation it quite simply ain’t Israeli.

        The US after having bought Alaska from the Russians, annexed Alaska by agreement with the then RUSSIAN citizens of the territory to be annexed,some time after it was bought. In a nutshell, all they bought was the right to annex by agreement.

        The US, by adopting the legal custom of annexation via an agreement/treaty with the legitimate residents of the territories to be annexed (Hawaii, Texas, Alaska etc), were largely instrumental in that legal custom eventually passing into Customary International Law.

        Israel and the Palestinians cannot make an agreement that breaches International Law. Legal annexation must still take place. If and when it does, there’s gonna be lot of people suddenly realize the lies Israel has told for 67 years not only to the International Community but to un-awares and deliberately kept un-awares Israelis. Those unpolished turds will hit the fan eventually, then there might be a chance for real peace amongst peoples of the region because Zionism will at last take its deserved place amongst the worst of histories despots

    • rosross
      rosross
      July 27, 2015, 8:40 am

      @Yonah,

      Exodus was a novel. It was a work of fiction. Are you saying you believed it to be history?

      The Exodus in the Bible was also fiction. Israel was founded as a colonial State on Palestine because of fictitious belief.

      Your ‘heartwarming’ flag resonates in Palestine and now, around the world, as something akin to the swastika because flags reflect actions and Israel as occupier, coloniser and apartheid State maintained under the most murderous and venal military boot in modern history, certainly by a so-called democracy, flies a flag of human rights atrocities and war crimes.

      And no, giving the Palestinians back a bit of their country, which you call the West Bank but is simply more of Occupied Palestine, littered as it is with illegal Jew-only settlements connected by Jew-only roads, is just a bantustan which can never be a fully independent, viable State for Palestinians and which is simply not enough.

      If two States were ever to be possible they had to be fully independent with exactly the same rights to control air, land and sea borders and the same rights to defend themselves with contiguous borders and East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital.

      Two states are now impossible, thanks to Israel so that means one democratic State where indigenous Palestinians and their colonists share the land. The Gaza concentration camp is closed, Jew-only settlements and Jew-only roads are gone and everyone lives with the same rights and freedom in the way that they do in every other nation founded through colonisation.

      There will be a new flag and probably a new name since Palestinians will be traumatised for quite some time at the name Israel, and everyone will need a fresh start, so perhaps, Canaan or a combination of Palestine and Israel.

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 28, 2015, 6:49 pm

        rosross said:
        “@Yonah, Exodus was a novel. It was a work of fiction. Are you saying you believed it to be history?”

        Here’s an interesting take on the origin of the novel Exodus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_(Uris_novel)#The_origins_of_Exodus,
        that it was commissioned specifically to create good PR and a very favorable narrative for the emerging (1959) state of Israel.

        I haven’t looked at this issue in a number of years and I now discover the hasbarists have mounted a full-court defense. See: http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/142442

        Me thinks they protest too much. The author of the new defense is one Martin Kramer, a man of impeccable Likud-Zionist and neocon credentials. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Kramer.

        Apparently, this fine fellow once “…advocated cuts in what he termed “pro-natal subsidies” to Palestinians in Gaza as a means of discouraging population growth, thus curbing Islamic radicalization.” Judging from the high body count among Palestinian women and children during the last two Gaza invasions, it appears Israel has discovered more efficient means of birth control.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 28, 2015, 8:45 pm

        I believe he had Irish residency in those days, so he could avoid taxes. Ireland used to attract the arts that way, as you probably know.

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 28, 2015, 8:53 pm

        Who we talking here, Yonah, me, Leon Uris, Martin Kramer???

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        July 28, 2015, 8:54 pm

        Ha!
        Sorry.
        Leon.

    • CigarGod
      CigarGod
      July 27, 2015, 8:46 am

      Dude, if you can’t do reality, at least read the book. I know it’s a big thick doorstop, but it is 8 times better than the movie.

    • MRW
      MRW
      July 27, 2015, 7:12 pm

      the positive social experiences they had in the proximity to a flag of Israel

      Sounds kinky.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      July 28, 2015, 3:18 pm

      “For an old fogey like me the original text is the movie “Exodus” with Paul Newman.”

      Speechless. Gee, Yonah, I knew it went deep, but gosh, I never knew how deep!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 29, 2015, 2:17 pm

        Oh well, never underestimate the power of a pair of startlingly blue eyes. So that’s where they got that exact shade of blue for the flag! I should’ve known.

  36. amigo
    amigo
    July 27, 2015, 6:27 am

    The proposal to re-enter Gaza is gaining traction.

    In recent weeks there have been several articles from Israeli media supporting the idea of re-colonising Gaza.Here is Moshe Arens writing about ” Undoing a wrong” and “re settling ” Gaza and Northern Samaria.

    ” It’s not too late for Israel to right its wrong and resettle Gaza, northern Samaria
    Ten years after the disengagement, after thousands of rockets falling on good part of Israel, it’s clear that Ariel Sharon was wrong. But some of that wrong can be fixed.” Haaretz/Arens.

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.667925

    It,s behind a pay wall , so I could only get the gist of the article.

    • a blah chick
      a blah chick
      July 27, 2015, 9:34 am

      “It,s behind a pay wall , so I could only get the gist of the article.”

      Someone on Twitter had a link to the full article, I forget who. Trust me, you didn’t miss a anything. I could be wrong but I don’t recall “Palestine,” “Palestinians,” or “Hamas” getting any sort of mention.

      Yeah, let try to re-occupy Gaza. Last year they couldn’t managed more than a few hundred yards before they got they asses kicked. The Jewish Israeli public will not stand for large numbers of casualties, they want their oppression sustained without pain on their part.

    • Sibiriak
      Sibiriak
      July 28, 2015, 2:58 am

      For amigo:

      http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.667925

      “Ariel Sharon may have taken to his grave the real reason for his decision to uproot over 10,000 Israeli settlers from their homes 10 years ago. The fact is, a majority of Israelis supported his decision at the time, many trusting that his judgment would improve Israel’s security.

      Who would question the security opinion of the general who led Israel’s soldiers across the Suez Canal in the crucial hours of the Yom Kippur War? Ten years later, after three major Israel Defense Forces operations in the Gaza Strip and thousands of rockets falling on a good part of Israel, it’s clear to most that he was wrong.

      Not only do the polls indicate that most Israelis now believe that Sharon’s withdrawal was a mistake, but, believe it or not, they insist they thought it was a mistake at the time. So much for denial on a grand scale.

      A number of aspects of Sharon’s decision seem inexplicable to this day. Why in addition to the uprooting of the Gaza settlers in Gush Katif and Netzarim did he also decide to uproot the settlers at the Strip’s northern tip — Dugit, Elei Sinai and Nisanit — which brought Ashkelon within range of Qassam rockets that could be launched from there?

      Was he laboring under the illusion that by withdrawing right up to the armistice line concluded in February 1949 with Egypt, which left the Egyptian army in control of Gaza, he would improve Israel’s international standing?

      Just look at the “improvement” in Israel’s international standing since the disengagement. Leaving these settlements in place would not have changed a thing in that regard. But to much of the public the slogan “getting out of Gaza” overpowered all rhyme or reason. It was good riddance to bad rubbish as far as they were concerned. For all they cared we should have let the Egyptian army stay there.

      But most puzzling was Sharon’s decision to uproot the settlers of Kadim, Sa-Nur, Homesh and Ganim in northern Samaria. In four weeks we will mark 10 years since that totally irrational act. With all the attention drawn to the uprooting of the settlers of Gush Katif 10 years ago, these settlements seem to have been forgotten by most.

      What possible reason was there for this outrageous action, carried out in the wake of the destruction of the settlements in the Gaza area? Not accompanied by an IDF withdrawal as in Gush Katif, what could their destruction possibly accomplish besides inflicting suffering on the settlers there? We will probably never know the reason, if there was any, behind this foul act.

      Are these unfortunate acts irreversible? Will we see settlers returning to the areas where once stood their homes that have been destroyed?

      Barring some cataclysmic events, Gush Katif will remain under some kind of Palestinian control for the foreseeable future. But the situation in Gaza’s northern tip could have been changed during any one of the three IDF operations in the area, most recently during Operation Protective Edge a year ago.

      The area where once existed the settlements of Dugit, Elei Sinai and Nisanit could have been occupied and retained by the IDF, thus providing at least a partial security improvement for the inhabitants of the Ashkelon area. The settlers could have returned. It was an opportunity missed.

      Quite different is the situation of the destroyed settlements Kadim, Sa-Nur, Homesh and Ganim in northern Samaria. The area remains under IDF control. There seems to be no reason not to let the settlers return to their homes there. That would at least partially correct the injustice committed there 10 years ago. The time has come to give it some serious thought”

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      Maximus Decimus Meridius
      July 28, 2015, 2:51 pm

      I hope hophmi isn’t reading.

      You wouldn’t want to stir up the deep, enduring ‘trauma’ he feels to this day over the ‘evacuation’ of Gaza, would you?

  37. rosross
    rosross
    July 27, 2015, 8:31 am

    Israel is a classic example of how the human mind can hold two conflicting ideas at one and the same time.

    Logic, reason, common sense and facts dictate that:

    1. Occupation is immoral
    2. Colonisation is immoral
    3. Apartheid is immoral
    4. Occupiers cannot be democracies
    5. Colonisers cannot be democracies
    6. Apartheid States cannot be democracies

    And yet many people still hold to the delusion that Israel acts with morality and is a democracy! But less and less as the internet spreads information.

  38. Kathleen
    Kathleen
    July 27, 2015, 9:53 am

    Willfully “duped”

  39. RobertHenryEller
    RobertHenryEller
    July 27, 2015, 2:19 pm

    What Jewish Americans are being duped into believing is that Israel is a Jewish State, or primarily inhabited by Jews.

    Real Jews obey the Ten Commandments. All of them. Including the Commandments against lying, against stealing, against murder. Real Jews practice the teachings of Rabbi Hillel.

    Millions of so-called Jews in Israel are not Jews. They are Zionists. They are Fascists. They are liars. They are thieves. They are murderers. They do not practice the teachings of Rabbi Hillel.

    And yet they not only have the audacity to tell Jewish Americans that they, Jewish Americans, are not real Jews, but they also have the audacity to have us pay their way, and take the heat for them.

    Israel does not make Jews or Judaism safer. Israel is already the Second Holocaust. Only this time, six million Jews have not simply been murdered. They have been turned into Zombie Zionist Phychopaths. The Walking Dead. These Israeli Zombie Zionist Psychopaths are making the world a much more dangerous place for Jews and Judaism.

    Jewish Americans support Israel at their own peril. If Jewish Americans want to protect themselves, protect Judaism, to protect the rest of their fellow Americans, to protect innocent fellow human beings, they need to stop supporting Israel as it currently operates. Jewish Americans need to stop supporting Zionist Americans.

    • Bornajoo
      Bornajoo
      July 27, 2015, 2:25 pm

      “Israel does not make Jews or Judaism safer. Israel is already the Second Holocaust. Only this time, six million Jews have not simply been murdered. They have been turned into Zombie Zionist Phychopaths. The Walking Dead. These Israeli Zombie Zionist Psychopaths are making the world a much more dangerous place for Jews and Judaism”.

      Brilliant! +100 RHE

      (I’m going to have to “borrow” this!)

      • just
        just
        July 27, 2015, 2:29 pm

        Ditto that, Bornajoo! Thanks RHE.

      • ritzl
        ritzl
        July 28, 2015, 9:45 am

        Yup. Brilliant!

        Thanks RHE.

    • CigarGod
      CigarGod
      July 27, 2015, 2:34 pm

      Thanks for that.

    • Kay24
      Kay24
      July 27, 2015, 4:56 pm

      Good points. They have not only given Judaism a bad name, but also the Jews who know better than to follow their thinking. I know many Jewish folks who have been able to reject zionism, and are better human beings. I also know a couple of American Jews who have married Muslims. Fortunately, they have been immune to that koolaid. The zionists are asking for trouble, and when it comes, it will too late for regrets. At the moment they are delusional thinking they can keep their reign of terror, intimation, violence, and crimes against humanity going forever. What goes around will come around.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        July 27, 2015, 5:45 pm

        RHE- Are you greater than the prophet Elijah? When the prophet Elijah scorned Ahab he did not deny that he was Jewish. (anachronism: Ahab was not from Judea, but from Israel) He called him many bad names but he didn’t deny he was Jewish. Are Zionists worse than Ahab or are you greater than elijah?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        July 27, 2015, 11:12 pm

        Are Zionists worse than Ahab…. ?

        I haven’t met Ahab but he hardly could have been any worse than the Zionists. He went after a whale with a small and pathetic crew, not against hogtied Palestinians with the entire might of the US and Europe.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 28, 2015, 3:31 am

        He means the biblical Ahab who was a king in the kingdom of Israel that supposedly split from the kingdom of Judea. The bible portrays it as sinful because it ‘strayed’ from the ‘one true god’ worshipped by ‘ever faithful’ Judea, and supposedly worshipped foreign idols. Propaganda is rife in the bible and if you read it right you can see who the dominant cult or faction is. People then were the same as us now, they just didn’t have technology. But they thought the same and power plays and cultish psychology were exactly as they are today.

        But interesting to bring up that Ahab too.

        Either way, the bible obviously isn’t history but a collection of writings that were cobbled together from scrolls at various times. They were written by people searching for answers to question we still ask now, or building a mythology for the purpose of particular groups and factions. Plenty of propaganda in the bible too. Ahab and the kingdom of Israel get a bad reputation because they don’t follow the dominant faction that happens to be in power at the time. Simple stuff. It’s being done today as we know. Who said that history is written by the victors? So we don’t know really know if Ahab, if he even existed, really was ‘bad’ as he was portrayed in the stories of the bible. Just saying…

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        July 28, 2015, 12:56 pm

        Ahab certainly existed and might in some ways be regarded as a hero of Israel. The rather beautiful Kurkh Monolith in the British Museum records his participation in ‘the Alliance of Twelve Kings’ which stopped the Assyrian westward advance in 853 BCE. He made one of the largest military contributions, including 2000 chariots. He is portrayed in Kings as an oppressive ruler, particularly in respect of Naboth’s Vineyard!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 28, 2015, 3:22 pm

        ” He is portrayed in Kings as an oppressive ruler, particularly in respect of Naboth’s Vineyard!”

        Well, look what goes on at Martha’s!

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        July 28, 2015, 6:41 pm

        “Ahab certainly existed”

        It’s nice to know that someone did.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 29, 2015, 3:11 pm

        “He means the biblical Ahab who was a king in the kingdom of Israel “

        Bear in mind. Ms. A, we ‘malaprop’ like crazy around here.

        “Are you greater than the Prophet Elijah”

        The Prophet Elijah? He’s a wimp. Even I can out-drink him.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        July 30, 2015, 10:49 am

        PS to Dr Abarbanel – A lifetime of watching Zionism in action turned me totally off Biblical quotes –or any display or mention of Jewish religion. It is a real pleasure to ignore Ahab and turn to Melville.

    • MRW
      MRW
      July 27, 2015, 7:15 pm

      Real Jews obey the Ten Commandments. All of them.

      Just soared from there, RHE.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 28, 2015, 3:25 pm

        “Real Jews obey the Ten Commandments. All of them.”

        “All of them”? C’mon, that’s too many. Isn’t seven or eight out of ten enough?

    • Sibiriak
      Sibiriak
      July 28, 2015, 3:07 am

      RobertHenryEller: Real Jews practice the teachings of Rabbi Hillel.
      ——————–

      Right…. and no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 29, 2015, 3:26 pm

        “Real Jews practice the teachings of Rabbi Hillel.”

        Gosh, I don’t know about anybody else, but I am content to leave the decisions and definitions and discussions of who is a Real Jew to the Zionists. They’re much better at it than we are. They’re much more picky than we will ever be, from what I read lately.

  40. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    July 27, 2015, 4:13 pm

    That great thinker Rod Stewart once said, “Every picture tells a story, don’t it?” Well, here we have a headline. it is time for american jews to recognize that they have been duped and it is accompanied by a photo of Leonard Cohen and Ariel Sharon. If in 1953 Sharon was a monster on behalf of Ben Gurion/Israel, in 1973, Sharon was a hero on behalf of the Jewish people.

    I agree with annie robbins observation that Avigail is trying to convince young american jews to drop their sentiments in the garbage can and fess up to the pure and true reality that Israel was brutal towards the Palestinians.

    But I come back to the photo which is not Avigail’s fault, but the editors’ fault and in fact I feel that Leonard Cohen was not duped by Israel. And the wish for Israel to accept the refugees with open arms is just a wish and not near reality and in 1973 Israel fought a war that was a crushing calamity in its first few days and for Leonard Cohen to come to Israel with an urge to work on a kibbutz and end up playing for the troops was not as a result of being duped, but was as a result of devotion to the Jewish people. And to Avigail I guess Leonard cohen is duped, but to me, he is not duped at all. He has his head on his shoulders.

    Of course that was 42 years ago (almost) and Israel’s moves towards peace guided by the persistence and single mindedness of Jimmy Carter occurred more than 36 years ago. and in fact the sword of destruction that pushed the Palestinians into exile needs to be part of the consciousness of the Jewish people as they move forward and ignoring the Palestinians is not only wrong but foolhardy and the impetus to figure out methods of improvement, real methods and implementing them is of the highest importance and it is easier to move towards those moves if one feels empathy with the Palestinians. If one views them only as the enemy it is highly unlikely that the motive will be there to figure things out.

    But this: the american jews exemplified by Leonard Cohen were duped?! No! Leonard Cohen was not duped. He just doesn’t think of the Jewish people as a cult that needs to wither away. He views it quite differently.

    • Sibiriak
      Sibiriak
      July 28, 2015, 3:35 am

      yonah fredman: ….for Leonard Cohen to come to Israel with an urge to work on a kibbutz and end up playing for the troops was not as a result of being duped, but was as a result of devotion to the Jewish people.
      ———————-

      Why must it be either/or?

      Why must “devotion to the Jewish people” preclude being ignorant about critical facts of Israel’s history and their moral implications?

      Why can’t a person have noble intentions but also be “duped” in some regards?

      Why must everything be so morally black and white? (That applies to Avigail Abarbanel as well.)

    • eljay
      eljay
      July 28, 2015, 9:59 am

      || y.f.: … Leonard Cohen was not duped. He just doesn’t think of the Jewish people as a cult that needs to wither away. … ||

      1. The existence of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and/or religion-supremacist “Jewish State” is not required in order for people to be Jewish.

      2. As long as people want to be Jewish, there will be Jewish people. (And if/when they don’t, there won’t.)

      3. If Cohen was not duped into being a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist, that means he chose to be one. Shame on him.

  41. MRW
    MRW
    July 27, 2015, 7:16 pm

    Avigail, do more of these.

  42. rosross
    rosross
    July 28, 2015, 2:50 am

    Quote: Justice for Palestine will never come from the traditional governmental institutions or political parties that administer power. These institutions have surrendered to moneyed interests. Justice will come only from us. And the sole mechanism left to ensure justice for Palestine is the boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) movement against Israel. Sanctions brought down the apartheid regime of South Africa. And they are what will bring down the apartheid regime of Israel. BDS is nonviolent. It appeals to conscience. And it works.

    The struggle against apartheid in South Africa was long and hard. This struggle will be too. All Israeli products including Jaffa citrus fruits, Ahava cosmetics, SodaStream drink machines, Eden Springs bottled water and Israeli wine must be boycotted. We must refuse to do business with Israeli service companies. And we must boycott corporations that do business with Israel, including Caterpillar, HP and Hyundai. We must put pressure on institutions, from churches to universities, to divest from Israeli companies and corporations that have contracts with Israel. The struggle against apartheid in South Africa was long and hard. This struggle will be too.

    …….

    Israel’s goal is to make life a living hell for all Palestinians, ethnically cleansing as many as it can and subduing those who remain. The peace process is a sham. It has led to Israel’s seizure of more than half the land on the West Bank, including the aquifers, and the herding of Palestinians into squalid, ringed ghettos or Bantustans while turning Palestinian land and homes over to Jewish settlers. Israel is expanding settlements, especially in East Jerusalem. Racial laws, once championed by the right-wing demagogue Meir Kahane, openly discriminate against Israeli Arabs and Palestinians. Ilan Pappe calls the decades-long assault against the Palestinian people “incremental genocide.”

    In Gaza, Israel practices an even more extreme form of cruelty. It employs a mathematical formula to limit outside food deliveries to Gaza to keep the caloric levels of the 1.8 million Palestinians just above starvation. This has left 80 percent of the Palestinians in Gaza dependent on Islamic charities and outside aid to survive. And the periodic military assaults on Gaza, euphemistically called “mowing the lawn,” are carried out every few years to ensure that the Palestinians remain broken, terrified and destitute. There have been three Israeli attacks on Gaza since 2008. Each is more violent and indiscriminate than the last. Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman has said that a fourth attack on Gaza is “inevitable.”

    http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/07/27/why-i-support-bds-movement-against-israel

  43. Qualtrough
    Qualtrough
    July 28, 2015, 3:13 am

    Cohen’s songs and poems were always way too cheerful for my taste.

  44. ritzl
    ritzl
    July 28, 2015, 9:57 am

    One of the best comment threads ever!

    Avigail, your crisp participation really propels a bunch of already gifted, knowledgeable, and well-written seekers to new heights of shared insight.

    Beautiful and inspiring. Thanks.

    • Bornajoo
      Bornajoo
      July 28, 2015, 10:12 am

      “One of the best comment threads ever!

      Avigail, your crisp participation really propels a bunch of already gifted, knowledgeable, and well-written seekers to new heights of shared insight.

      Beautiful and inspiring. Thanks.”

      Fully agree Ritzl! Well stated

    • just
      just
      July 28, 2015, 10:14 am

      So well expressed, ritzl! Jumping on the bandwagon here.

    • CigarGod
      CigarGod
      July 28, 2015, 10:15 am

      Yeah, man!
      The Mondo-Cake recipe just got better.

      • just
        just
        July 28, 2015, 10:18 am

        +1, CG!

        (lol)

    • Avigail
      Avigail
      July 28, 2015, 1:57 pm

      Hello Ritzl and many many thanks to you for your comments. I feel humbled by so much praise.

      It’s a great privilege for me to participate and be a part of such an incredible group of people. Like someone else said too, it’s proof that it is possible! Activism needs to be done in an non-adversarial manner otherwise we simply contribute to the already existing problem.

      Relating to each other the way we do here and the way I am sure you are all doing in your personal and professional lives, listening to so much witty, good natured, intelligent humour, reading amazing research and knowledge that people contribute here is incredible. I never knew this was possible and it makes me very happy.

      I am not cynical and not interested in sarcasm or negativity for the sake of it. It’s OK to feel discouraged from time to time, and it’s OK to feel despair and anger. It’s OK to feel like you’ve had enough and you have no faith left in anyone and that you even hate everyone. It passes…

      How can anyone not feel those feelings sometimes, living in the world the way it is? So we have to feel our feelings and accept them. Where it’s possible and safe, share them with others, so that we can emerge into the world with renewed energy and motivation to do what we do. Above all I believe we must be kind to each other, especially to those we disagree with. Being firm and knowing what you believe isn’t the same can exist along side being kind. That’s what I see so many people here do.

      It’s one thing to feel something, but it’s quite another to act on it. I would rather spread love, warmth and humour than poison. I grew up with poison and have given it up… It wasn’t good for me. Nearly killed me… So we can feel all our feelings and do the right thing not despite them but rather through accepting that it’s normal to feel them.

      I am grateful to everyone here. As long as we engage with each other respectfully and kindly, there is hope! :)

    • Danaa
      Danaa
      July 28, 2015, 7:01 pm

      I second your comment ritzl.

      Personally, I also wanted to commend Avigail for her gracious participation in this thread, which no doubt helped raise it to higher level than we see usually, and made it one of the most popular in some time. Plus it brought several of us back in from the back woods or wherever we decamped to.

      I note that everyone (yes, yonah too…) has been on their best behavior. Graciousness does that to people. Can only hope to see more of Avigail’s writing as well as the astute commentary by many here. I know that sometimes, it feels like we said it all before, but there is always a new way of stating old truths – this this essay and the comments it inspired prove it (plus i got my quote of the month from Shmuel! Can now go off and contemplate the meaninglessness of life in peace…).

      • just
        just
        July 29, 2015, 1:11 am

        I so agree, Danaa!

        I’m glad I checked this thread again (can’t stay away!) and found some more comments from you. Be safe and have fun out there in the woods. ;-)

      • irishmoses
        irishmoses
        July 29, 2015, 2:28 am

        Danaa,

        I think some of us retreat from MW and return occasionally for important forays mainly because it’s too easy to become obsessive about the issue. I think its healthy to come and go and I’m delighted you’re still coming and going.

        As to your comment, “Can now go off and contemplate the meaninglessness of life in peace…).”, I’ve convinced myself, after more than a few bouts of the black dog, that that question is unknowable and that the minutes and people in between are all that really count.

        Be well, says this Danaa admirer. Next year (or so) we’ll all meet in Ramallah, or Jerusalem, or both, to celebrate. Now that’l be some party.

      • Avigail
        Avigail
        July 29, 2015, 3:56 am

        Thank you so much Danaa! I got teary reading your comment. I hope that you will find meaning in the meaninglessness… :)

      • ritzl
        ritzl
        July 29, 2015, 1:43 pm

        Well said (as always), Danaa.

        Just wanted to echo this:

        I know that sometimes, it feels like we said it all before, but there is always a new way of stating old truths – this this essay and the comments it inspired prove it.

        I descend into sarcasm too often on this issue. Too many years of the same stuff, over and over. But, with Avigail’s affecting positivity and determined guidance, this thread was genuinely uplifting. Uplifting enough to make old hopes sift through the filter of a harsh known reality and become new hopes.

        No small thing that.

        PS. Sorry for the flowery language, but I don’t know how else to describe this pleasant-weird feeling.

  45. rosross
    rosross
    July 29, 2015, 8:01 am

    @Yonah,

    In terms of Jews wishing to refer to themselves as a people, it is not an issue anymore than it is any other religion or group referring to itself as a people in a metaphorical, symbolic sense, since patently followers of Jews are not a people and comprising all races and dozens of nationalities can never equate as one.

    Unfortunately, thanks to Zionism, this symbolic religious concept of Jews being a people has been ‘literalised’ in an attempt to support the delusion that Jews constitute a real people with real rights to land. They do not and they never will.

    Religions do not get land rights and do not have rights to homelands. Israel was founded on Palestine as both a lie and a delusion.

    However, here is where we are at and we cannot turn back the clock to remove Israel but we can remove the injustices of occupation, colonisation and apartheid and that will happen and then Jews, Christians, Moslems and no doubt a few Hindus, Buddhists and atheists will live as citizens in a democracy either called Israel or Palestine or perhaps something else entirely.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      July 29, 2015, 10:28 am

      here is where we are at and we cannot turn back the clock to remove Israel

      Absolutely groundless. The time for that kind of thinking was way back when and they blew it.
      One word: Algeria.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        July 29, 2015, 3:31 pm

        “here is where we are at and we cannot turn back the clock to remove Israel”

        Yonah, maybe we can’t, but there’s a whole lot of other people in the world with a stake in this. And as the Little Old Clockmaker grimly said, when asked to repair a clock which only ‘ticked’: “ Vee haff vays of makink a Hickory Daiquiri, Doc!”

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        July 30, 2015, 10:21 am

        Mooser,

        If that had been from Mr Yonah it wouldn’t have been worth observing or commenting on.
        I’ll say that your guess at its authorship was much more in character than the reality.
        Looks like our whole gab society here is holding a double-guessing game: which is the most innocuous and respectful non-solution that we can impose on the Palestinian people –who’s never yet had an independent representative?

  46. Michael Lesher
    Michael Lesher
    July 30, 2015, 9:22 am

    I apologize for taking so long to express my appreciation and gratitude for this column, and for you as its author. As an American Jew (and an Orthodox one for many years, at that) I’ve seen much more than enough of the phenomena you describe. I’ve written about them, too.

    At the moment it’s a hard struggle to move the discourse in an honest direction; we’re working against powerful institutions that are dead set against it. But as you eloquently insist, the only way forward involves keeping principles straight and facts clear. Anyone who helps us do that deserves support, so please accept my sincere if belated congratulations for an article that buoys my own spirit, reminding me that honest people can see and write the truth.

  47. edwardm
    edwardm
    July 30, 2015, 11:34 am

    Is that Leonard Cohen caterwauling for a bunch of baby killers? thanks the lord it’s just a photo.

  48. Sibiriak
    Sibiriak
    July 30, 2015, 12:00 pm

    Kim Chernin, 2002 “Seven Pillars of Jewish Denial” (excerpt):

    […] We used to ride down to our orchards on kibbutz trucks with Arab workers fro m the neighboring villages and were occasionally invited to visit. We liked sitting on a rug on a dirt floor, eating food cooked over an open fire, drinking water from the village well. Above all, we loved the kerosene lamps that were lit and set in a half circle around us as it grew dark. But walking home it occurred to me that our kibbutz had running water, electricity, modern stoves. Our neighbors were gracious, generous, and friendly, although I had learned by then that the land the kibbutz occupied had once belonged to them. We were living on land that was once theirs, under material conditions they could not hope to equal. I found this troubling.

    The path from this troubled awareness to my later ability to be critical of Israel has been long and complex. Over the years I have spoken with other Jews who have traveled this same path, and to many more who haven’t. In each of us I have detected mental obstacles that make it hard, sometimes impossible, for us to see what is there before our eyes. Our inability to engage in critical thought about our troubled homeland is entangled by crucial questions about Jewish identity. Why do American Jews find it difficult to be critical of Israel? Here, setout in linear form, are seven obstacles to a Jew’s ability to be critical of Israel.

    Seven Obstacles:

    1. A conviction that Jews are always in danger, always have been, and therefore are in danger now.

    Which leads to:

    2. The insistence that a criticism is an attack and will lead to our destruction.

    Which is rooted in:

    3. The supposition that any negativity towards Jews (or Israel) is a sign of anti-Semitism and will (again, inevitably) lead to our destruction.

    Which is enhanced by:

    4. Survivor’s guilt.

    Which contains within itself:

    5. A hidden belief that we can change the past. Which holds:

    6. An even more hidden belief that a sufficient amountof suffering confers the right to violence.

    Which finally brings us to:

    7. The conviction that our beliefs, our ideology (or theology), matter more than the lives of other human beings

    https://books.google.com/books?id=mgspPLQygMMC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=The+first+three+obstacles+reveal+a+cluster+of+convictions+about+Jewish+endangerment&source=bl&ots=ER-sJavq6-&sig=tQ3j5bpJimqfLu6t-5MhvxIb5sA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAWoVChMI-vjR1NeDxwIVVyuICh1cbQmi#v=onepage&q=The%20first%20three%20obstacles%20reveal%20a%20cluster%20of%20convictions%20about%20Jewish%20endangerment&f=false

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