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Beinart’s fear of ‘Israstine’

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Peter Beinart says that leftwing advocates for a single state in Israel and Palestine are utopians; and to make his point, he asks what the army of “Israstine” will look like. I’ve seen him do it three times: here, here, and in yesterday’s Times.

[Y]ou have to believe that the “Israstine” army, composed of joint Jewish-­Palestinian ­brigades, would hold together under enormous stress because its members are more loyal to “Israstine” than they are to being Jewish or Palestinian. That’s even more delusional than the two-state solution. More likely, “Israstine” would be civil war under a common flag.

I agree with Beinart: It’s hard to imagine. But before we do that thought experiment, let’s look at  reality. What does the army of Israel look like right now? It is almost all Jewish and Druze. It does not represent 15 percent so of the Israeli population, Palestinian Muslims and Christians (beyond a handful from those communities).

The army of Israel looks a lot like the American army before it was desegregated 67 years ago. Actually worse than the Jim Crow American army; black men served in our army, in segregated units. The Tuskegee Airmen. But Palestinians don’t serve. Because they don’t have to and because they are not wanted: they are not thought likely to be loyal warriors for a Jewish state that is in conflict with other Palestinians.

And why would they want to? If the U.S. was constituted as a white Christian state, blacks and Jews surely wouldn’t want to serve in the US army.

Israel’s army shows that right now the country enforces Jim Crow laws worse than the American version that we buried 50 years ago.

As for Beinart’s critique of the one-state future as utopian, I agree that’s a real question. As Yousef Munayyer said in a debate with Beinart a few weeks back, none of the short term answers for Israel and Palestine look hopeful at all, and there are bound to be terrible problems on any road we go down. And don’t raise “bogeymen,” Munayyer said.

The future looks so scary because the conditions in Israel Palestine are reminiscent of revolutionary conditions in Algeria and the antebellum south, injustices so pronounced they  produced enormous violence. (That’s why I support Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions, it is a nonviolent means of putting pressure on Israel so its Jewish nationalist regime will see the light and begin dismantling a system of discrimination against Palestinians.)

As for the army of Israstine, it is something of a debating trick. Do fears of an unknown future justify keeping people of color in worse-than-Jim-Crow conditions? Of course not. Imagine telling American blacks in the 60s we have to put  the civil  rights movement on ice because we don’t think blacks and whites will be able to live alongside one another as equals. They wouldn’t have accepted the argument. Americans who believe in equal rights here– and who supported desegregating our armed forces 7 decades ago–  should stop enabling a system that makes Jews first class citizens and Arabs second class ones.

 

Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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40 Responses

  1. John Douglas on August 24, 2015, 11:19 am

    Is Beinart really saying that the inability to imagine an army composed of Palestinian and Jewish soldiers is a sufficient reason to reject one state with equal rights for both?

    Let’s imagine then? First, assume that Israstine in fact does uphold full citizenship with equal rights for Palestinians and Jews in what is now Israel + the West bank + Gaza. Assume too that Palestinians have been justly compensated for what has been taken from them. Why would such an army be problematic even if within the army the Palestinians would rather eat with Palestinians and Jews with Jews. Armies are supposed to protect against external threats. What true threats to Israstine would Palestinians not fight against under these assumed conditions? Beinart’s worry about the army’s unity seems to stem from an assumption that the army will still be repressing Palestinians within Israstine. Finally, someone must have made this same argument in support of maintaining apartheid in South Africa.

    • lysias on August 24, 2015, 12:00 pm

      Fear of blacks getting their hands on South African nukes was a major reason why South Africa dismantled its nuclear weapons before it adopted one-man-one-vote.

      One-state might result in Israel’s getting rid of its nukes. Which, as far as I’m concerned, is a major argument in favor of one-state.

      • Krauss on August 24, 2015, 1:40 pm

        Lysias, good point.

        Still, I think overall, people are starting to understand that The Zionists Are Right!.

        What do I mean? I mean when they – the Zionists – say that South Africa is a misleading example for Israel. Actually, it is a misleading example.
        Noam Chomsky correctly points out that is what happening in Israel is in many ways far worse than what ever happened in South Africa.

        The violent colonial repression in Israel is more akin to the conditions of slavery in the antebellum South. Something a number of writers in Haaretz have already pointed out.

        We all know how slavery was ended, not by quiet one man, one vote type of formalities.

        Beinart probably fears this. He understands that the crimes of Israel are so significant, so deep, so that a new system would inevitably need to purge the old authorities completetly, which in a sense could prove so bitter as to making a one state inworkable.

        At the same time, we’ve seen the Palestinians amazingly constrained in their opposition to colonial oppression so far. Far more than Jews were under the Warsaw ghetto. Who is to say that they couldn’t bring it about?

        Either way, I think Beinart’s plea for “realism” is exactly what it is viewed as by everyone: a play for time, an attempt to allow Israel to “reform itself” so as to avoid self-distruction.

        Ultimately Beinart is and remains a person committed to blocking any real progress on anti-colonial struggle. That has always been his hallmark. He is a much more efficient operator than the crude hasbaraist of yore, such as Dershowitz, who only helps in recruiting efforts whenever he opens his fat mouth.

      • arobertsccl on August 25, 2015, 11:41 am

        To the discussion on democracy in Israel: you need only look at demographics, a commonly accepted measure of equality in States, boardrooms. by almost all ( I have not checked all) indices of well being or equality, income, possession of a dishwasher, infant or maternal mortality rates, life expectancy, completion of high school/ college, there is a statistical difference between Jewish and non- Jewish citizens of Israel. That it is statistically significant means it does not come about by chance but because of real factors in their situation. Only about 3% of university faculty for example are from the 20% of non- Jewish citizens. Interestingly, the same 3% applies to female Israelis and Mizrahi (Jews from Arab countries).
        So in fact an Ashkenazi class of privilege.

  2. amigo on August 24, 2015, 11:33 am

    First, a huge thanks to the crew who probably put in a long arduous weekend improving our experience with MW. Kudos to all.

    Now to the subject at hand.

    If any positive outcome is to be realised in the P/I conflict, then Zionism must be defeated and assigned to the bin of history.As long as this curse persists , nothing will be achieved .Beinart,s claim that Arabs and Israeli Jews will never live in peace with each other is misguided and ignores the many examples where former enemies have successively buried their differences.Northern Ireland and South Africa are two examples.While the level of success is not perfect , at least the conditions for further improvement are there and future generations will find common cause and respect each other,s humanity.

    The 2SS is dead and the only possible outcome is a 1SS . The Zionits can continue on their self defeating goal of a Greater Israel but that will end in disaster.Zionits need to start realising that electing leaders who ( survive on fear mongering) are in turn more right wing than those before them and will see the end of Israel in any form.Zionits need to accept that they must admit that the Nakba happened and apologise for their part in that.A long honest look in the mirror is required to change the zionist mindset.Hopefully the international community and BDS can assist them in this endeavour.

    Beinart and co are only serving to keep the conflict going , that is to say , keep the Zionists in the business of occupation and oppression.

  3. pabelmont on August 24, 2015, 11:34 am

    Beinart says he cannot imagine the army, but what he really cannot imagine is a state, successor to today’s Israel, in which Jews have no overwhelming predominance and privilege over all others. He cannot imagine all or some of the macho (or religious fundameltalist) Jewish Israelis agreeing (or being forced) to act equally under the laws and customs.

    As to the army, he cannot imagine a State that no longer gets its jollies by going to war because of the pure pleasure of trashing a neighbor — that neighbor being an Arab state and no longer for that reason alone a natural enemy, what with Israel being >50% Arab at that point.

    Many people are coming to the realization — slowly of course — that the goal of Zionism, a predominantly Jewish State in all of Palestine — could never, not then and not now, be achieved without both theft and expulsion (ethnic cleansing). And the realization that that theft and expulsion were evils then and evils now– and are broadly seen that way.

    Beinart is having trouble making this transition. He is not there yet. He still wants the judenstaat and for him, I suppose, the end still justifies the means that were chosen and put into operation from 1945 til 2015. And counting.

    But I bet he is not liking it as much as he once did.

  4. hophmi on August 24, 2015, 12:06 pm

    “Do fears of an unknown future justify keeping people of color in worse-than-Jim-Crow conditions? ”

    Palestinians living within Israel’s 1967 lines are not living in anything like Jim Crow conditions. Those in the West Bank and Gaza face more serious oppression, and arguing for the type of solution that has led to bloodbaths almost everywhere else it has been attempted, not to mention a solution that is rejected by both peoples and a solution that would greatly injustice everyone in the region, is wrong politically and morally.

    And talking about the army in such a state in not a dodge. How would any of the state institutions function? How do they function in Syria? In Iraq? In Lebanon? In the former Yugoslavia? In Nigeria in the 1960’s? In Congo?

    You must answer why it’s a good idea for the international community to create a state inhabited by two peoples who neither trust nor like one another in a region where peoples who dislike and do not trust each other in way Palestinians and Israelis dislike and mistrust one another tend to kill each other.

    Western ideas imposed on Middle Eastern peoples are no better just because their progenitors are radical leftists.

    • tree on August 24, 2015, 12:50 pm

      You must answer why it’s a good idea for the international community to create a state inhabited by two peoples who neither trust nor like one another in a region where peoples who dislike and do not trust each other in way Palestinians and Israelis dislike and mistrust one another tend to kill each other.

      Well, its almost 100 years too late but its good to see that you are against the Balfour Declaration. Maybe in another hundred years you’ll finally get around to recognizing what a disaster Zionism was and is.

    • tree on August 24, 2015, 1:10 pm

      Palestinians living within Israel’s 1967 lines are not living in anything like Jim Crow conditions.

      Perhaps you missed this today, hophmi:

      ISRAEL BEGINS CONSTRUCTION ON RUINS OF NEGEV BEDOUIN VILLAGE ,

      BEERSHEBA (Ma‘an) 23 Aug — Israeli excavators on Sunday morning began work on infrastructure for two Jewish-only settlements in the former Bedouin village of Umm al-Hiran in the Negev desert in southern Israel, locals said. Locals told Ma‘an that excavators and bulldozers were building a new road under heavy protection of Israeli forces. In November 2013, the Israeli government approved a decision to demolish the unrecognized Bedouin village of Umm al-Hiran and passed plans to create two Jewish settlements, Hiran and Kassif, in the area. “There is no room for comments any more as we are not talking about racism, but rather, extermination of a 60-year-old town whose residents have been displaced three times,” a member of a local committee of the displaced Bedouin community, Raed Abu al-Qean, said. Umm al-Hiran is one of dozens of Bedouin villages which the Israeli government does not recognize. It is located in Wadi Attir east of Hurah village.
      – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/08/construction-demolished-bedouin#sthash.jtmkH2gv.dpuf

      This is not in the West Bank or Gaza. This is in Israel, within the green line. And its worse than Jim Crow.

      • Krauss on August 24, 2015, 1:33 pm

        Tree, hophmi is an unrelenting apologist for Apartheid, so long as it is Jewish Apartheid. He’ll be like these bitter old pro-Apartheid Afrikaaner men who keep pining to old days gone, when the white hand ruled, only for hophmi a star of David excuses even the most vicious colonial oppression and systematic racism.

        I hope he is around this site, for I will look forward to watch his desperation devolve into insanity and his precious little Apartheid state gets more and more isolated until its finally destroyed.

      • amigo on August 24, 2015, 2:47 pm

        “I hope he is around this site, for I will look forward to watch his desperation devolve into insanity – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/08/beinarts-fear-israstine#sthash.XNlmbdYp.dpuf“Krauss.

        It is my belief that hopknee is already insane as are all zionists who believe they can keep up this murderous criminal behaviour ad infinitum.

        Is there a psychological stage beyond insanity.

      • hophmi on August 24, 2015, 4:29 pm

        “This is in Israel, within the green line. And its worse than Jim Crow.”

        Palestinians vote, hold office, sit as judges and attend Israeli universities in large numbers. It is not remotely like Jim Crow, and it is an insult to African-Americans who lived under Jim Crow to make that specious comparison.

        ” only for hophmi a star of David excuses even the most vicious colonial oppression and systematic racism.”

        Whatever, Krauss. You have no clue what apartheid is, because if you did, you wouldn’t use that word to describe Israel.

        “It is my belief that hopknee is already insane as are all zionists who believe they can keep up this murderous criminal behaviour ad infinitum.”

        Yes, yes. Anyone who doesn’t see the world as you do is insane. I can’t understand why people on the radical left accomplish nothing in Western society.

      • amigo on August 24, 2015, 5:53 pm

        “Yes, yes. Anyone who doesn’t see the world as you do is insane. I can’t understand why people on the radical left accomplish nothing in Western society. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/08/beinarts-fear-israstine/comment-page-1#comment-792199” Hopknee.

        You seem very pensive.Someone get your gander , eh hoppy.

      • Mooser on August 24, 2015, 5:58 pm

        “Is there a psychological stage beyond insanity.”

        Tertiary Ziocaine Syndrome.

      • amigo on August 24, 2015, 5:59 pm

        “Whatever, Krauss. You have no clue what apartheid is, because if you did, you wouldn’t use that word to describe Israel. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/08/beinarts-fear-israstine/comment-page-1#comment-792203“hoppy.

        Better tell that to Bradley Burston??.

        “It’s Time to Admit It. Israeli Policy Is What It Is: Apartheid

        I used to be one of those people who took issue with the label of apartheid as applied to Israel. Not anymore.
        read more:”

        http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/.premium-1.671538

      • amigo on August 24, 2015, 6:03 pm

        “Tertiary Ziocaine Syndrome.” Mooser

        Thanks for straightening out my thinking.I naturally assumed the insanity followed the TZS.

    • amigo on August 24, 2015, 1:50 pm

      “And talking about the army in such a state in not a dodge. How would any of the state institutions function? How do they function in Syria? In Iraq? In Lebanon? In the former Yugoslavia? In Nigeria in the 1960’s? In Congo? – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/08/beinarts-fear-israstine#sthash.KueAbDk5.dpuf” hopknee

      Hoppy , you might want to go outside your self imposed myopia and fear of success by looking at how others have overcome most of their problems .IE Northern Ireland,s Police force , which at one time had a population mix of , 92% Protestant and 8 % Catholic , that mix is now 70/30.

      Changes were also made to the Uniform

      “The colour of the PSNI uniform is green. Pre-1970s RUC uniforms retained a dark green, which was often mistaken as black. A lighter shade of green was introduced following the Hunt reforms of the early 1970s, although Hunt recommended that British blue should be introduced. The Patten report, however, recommended the retention of the green uniform (Recommendation No. 154).[22] The RUC officially described this as ‘rifle green’. When the six new versions of the PSNI uniform were introduced, in March 2002, the term ‘bottle green’ was used for basically the same colour to convey a less militaristic theme.

      The PSNI badge features the St. Patrick’s saltire, and six symbols representing different and shared traditions:

      The Scales of Justice (representing equality and justice)
      A crown (a traditional symbol of royalty but not the St Edward’s Crown worn by or representing the British Sovereign)
      The harp (a traditional Irish symbol but not the Brian Boru harp used as an official emblem in the Republic)
      A torch (representing enlightenment and a new beginning)
      An olive branch (a peace symbol from Ancient Greece)
      A shamrock (a traditional Irish symbol, used by St Patrick, patron saint of all Ireland, to explain the Christian Trinity)

      The flag of the PSNI is the badge in the centre of a dark green field. Under the Police Emblems and Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2002 no other flag can be used by the PSNI and it is the only one permitted to be flown on any PSNI building, vehicle, aircraft or vessel.[23] the Uniform which for obvious reasons the Nationalist section refused to wear.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Service_of_Northern_Ireland

      Problem is hopknee , people like you do not want equality for all. You just want to maintain the position of “ubermencshen” and supremacy for Jews.

      • Bornajoo on August 24, 2015, 2:19 pm

        “Problem is hopknee , people like you do not want equality for all. You just want to maintain the position of “ubermencshen” and supremacy for Jews”

        Absolutely Amigo. And Hophmi will also tell us that Israel simply must remain as a majority “Jewish state” because most gentiles suffer from the disease of anti semitism, sometimes latent, sometimes virulent. Therefore they must segregate themselves to protect themselves against those evil gentiles. I mean you just never know when it suddenly goes from latent to virulent.

      • amigo on August 24, 2015, 3:03 pm

        “Absolutely Amigo. And Hophmi will also tell us that Israel simply must remain as a majority “Jewish state” because most gentiles suffer from the disease of anti semitism, sometimes latent, sometimes virulent. Therefore they must segregate themselves to protect themselves against those evil gentiles. I mean you just never know when it suddenly goes from latent to virulent. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/08/beinarts-fear-israstine/comment-page-1#comment-792152” Bornajoo

        Yeah , If Hopknee cared about all Jews , he would be posting on the Irish Times warning the some 2000 Irish Jews against all those antisemitic Irish gentiles, roaming the streets of Ireland , seeking out Jews to kill or abuse.

        I seriously cannot recall the last time I read an incident of “Jew beating ” in Ireland and I am well into my 7th decade.Of course hopknee will respond with some article from MEMRI or CAMERA ( centers of pure fact) claiming that Jews were driven out of Ireland .

        Hopknee is obviously aware that the jig is up for zionism and is having a hard time getting his mindset around that fact. I for one will enjoy his trip to reality.

      • hophmi on August 24, 2015, 4:30 pm

        Problem is, Northern Ireland is a totally different place in a totally different part of the world, and citing it isn’t an answer to my question, not even remotely.

      • amigo on August 24, 2015, 5:46 pm

        Problem is, Northern Ireland is a totally different place in a totally different part of the world, and citing it isn’t an answer to my question, not even remotely. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/08/beinarts-fear-israstine#sthash.BKyMbui0.dpuf“hopknee

        Glad you finally agreed Israel is not a western society.

        “Western ideas imposed on Middle Eastern peoples are no better just because their progenitors are radical leftists. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/08/beinarts-fear-israstine#sthash.BKyMbui0.dpuf“hopknee.

        By the way , I was not trying to answer your question.I was foolishly giving you advice against my better judgment.Thanks for confirming my previous assertion.
        ?.

        You do not want peace or justice or equality , except for those blue eyed white skinned “non middle eastern ” people ( euro Jews).

      • druid on August 24, 2015, 8:03 pm

        ZioHophmi, I grew up in South Africa and know what apartheid is having been on its receiving end. Israel is a LOT worse, I can tell you!

    • ckg on August 24, 2015, 10:15 pm

      You must answer why it’s a good idea for the international community to create a state…

      I would be happy for either a just one state settlement or a just two state settlement. It’s not for me to decide. The colonized Palestinian people have the right of self-determination and don’t require the help of me or you or Beinart. If Israel wishes otherwise then they must simply vacate colonization.

    • ziusudra on August 25, 2015, 5:11 am

      Greetings Hophmi,
      ….West. ideas imposed on mid. East. peoples……
      Isn’t Israel a western People &Nation?

      Isra= One fights! Whom?
      ziusudra

    • Misterioso on August 25, 2015, 10:59 am

      Hophmi

      “Palestinians living within Israel’s 1967 lines are not living in anything like Jim Crow conditions.”

      Sigh.

      Times of Israel, February 21, 2013:
      “Former Foreign Ministry director-general invokes South Africa comparisons. ‘Joint Israel-West Bank’ reality is an apartheid state”
      EXCERPT: “Similarities between the ‘original apartheid’ as it was practiced in South Africa and the situation in ISRAEL [my emphasis] and the West Bank today ‘scream to the heavens,’ added [Alon] Liel, who was Israel’s ambassador in Pretoria from 1992 to 1994. There can be little doubt that the suffering of Palestinians is not less intense than that of blacks during apartheid-era South Africa, he asserted.”

      Ronnie Kasrils, key player in the struggle against the former South African apartheid regime, minister for intelligence and a devout Jew: “The Palestinian minority in Israel has for decades been denied basic equality in health, education, housing and land possession, solely because it is not Jewish. The fact that this minority is allowed to vote hardly redresses the rampant injustice in all other basic human rights. They are excluded from the very definition of the ‘Jewish state’, and have virtually no influence on the laws, or political, social and economic policies. Hence, their similarity to the black South Africans [under apartheid].” (The Guardian, 25 May 2005)

      Adi Ophir, professor of philosophy, Tel Aviv University: “…the adoption of the political forms of an ethnocentric and racist nation-state in general, are turning Israel into the most dangerous place in the world for the humanity and morality of the Jewish community, for the continuity of Jewish cultures and perhaps for Jewish existence itself.” (1998 issue of “Theory and Criticism,” published in Israel)

      The Independent, Dec. 27/2011:
      “…EU broadside over plight of Israel’s Arabs”
      EXCERPT: “The confidential 27-page draft prepared by European diplomats… [shows] that Israeli Arabs suffer ‘economic disparities… unequal access to land and housing… discriminatory draft legislation and a political climate in which discriminatory rhetoric and practice go unsanctioned.'”

      The U.S. State Department’s report on International Religious Freedom: “Arabs in Israel…are subject to various forms of discrimination [and the government] does not provide Israeli Arabs…with the same quality of education, housing, employment opportunities as Jews.”

      Jewish Voice for Peace, Washington D.C. January 19, 2013:
      “…what is meant by [Israeli] ‘apartheid?’ ”
      “What we are talking about is a system that is similar to the oppression of South Africa, but also unique…. We believe that in law and in spirit, the term ‘Israeli Apartheid’ is fair…’”

      Shlomo Gazit, retired IDF Major General: “[Israel’s] legal system that enforces the law in a discriminatory way on the basis of national identity, is actually maintaining an apartheid regime.” (Haaretz, July 19, 2011)

      Times of Israel, October 4, 2013:
      “Supreme Court rejects ‘Israeli’ nationality status'”
      EXCERPT: “Allowing citizens to relinquish ethnic or religious identity in the population registry would undermine Israel’s Jewishness, ruling says.
      “Israel’s population registry lists a slew of ‘nationalities’ and ethnicities, among them Jew, Arab, Druse and more. But one word is conspicuously absent from the list: Israeli.
      “Residents cannot identify themselves as Israelis in the national registry because the move could have far-reaching consequences for the country’s Jewish character, the Israeli Supreme Court wrote in documents obtained Thursday.”

      Israel is the only country in the world that differentiates between citizenship and nationality.

      To familiarize yourself with the more than fifty other discriminatory restrictions Palestinian citizens of Israel endure: (http://adalah.org/eng/Israeli-Discriminatory-Law-DatabaseIsrael's)

  5. David Doppler on August 24, 2015, 1:17 pm

    He should read MLK’s I Have a Dream speech, to help him imagine that state, and to help him understand why his outlook is so similar to that of Southern segregationists, who themselves had difficulty imagining the US as it exists today, 50 years after the Civil Right movement.

    It all boils down to how you define your community, and he’s defining his in an exclusionary way, inconsistently with American values.

    • hophmi on August 24, 2015, 4:32 pm

      “It all boils down to how you define your community, and he’s defining his in an exclusionary way, inconsistently with American values.”

      It all boils down to whether you’re intelligent and humble enough to understand that the Middle East and America are different places with different politics, cultures, and societies, and talking about MLK Jr. when, today, millions of people in the Middle East are being displaced and murdered because they aren’t the right tribe, is utterly obtuse.

      • annie on August 24, 2015, 4:45 pm

        and you, on the other hand, are “intelligent and humble” right? is that the take away here?

        throw in a little “millions of people in the Middle East are being displaced and murdered” whataboutery and we’re set to go.

        #Fail

      • mariapalestina on August 24, 2015, 5:24 pm

        “…millions of people in the Middle East are being displaced and murdered because they aren’t the right tribe, is utterly obtuse….”

        Hopni, it began in 1948 when zionist terrorists embarked on a Machiavellian plan to displace and murder the indigenous people of Palestine because they aren’t the right tribe. The Nakba has continued for nigh on 70 years.

      • eljay on August 24, 2015, 5:31 pm

        || hophmi: … It all boils down to whether you’re intelligent and humble enough to understand that the Middle East and America are different places … ||

        I wonder when Zio-supremacists are going to become intelligent and humble enough to understand that:
        – Israel is not a “Western-style democracy”, a “moral beacon” and a “light unto the nations”;
        – Israel is an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist, intransigent, belligerent and religion-supremacist “Jewish State” that has been committing (war) crimes with impunity for almost 70 years; and
        – they are hateful and immoral people.

        I suspect it won’t happen any time soon.

      • druid on August 24, 2015, 8:06 pm

        Sweep your own doors! The ME is in chaos in large part because of Zionist crazies like you with your manipulation sand mechanisms all over the world!

      • a blah chick on August 25, 2015, 8:51 am

        Those millions are being killed with the sanction of so-called “American values” so, yeah, maybe we shouldn’t be imposing ourselves on them.

      • David Doppler on August 25, 2015, 11:16 am

        Hophmi,

        I lived for awhile in the Jim Crow South, during the Civil Rights era, attended a segregated school, and listened to racist students and teachers talk about how the races could not live together, and those who thought otherwise were treated with equal dismissiveness, along with contempt and ostracism, not to mention threat of violence.

        And today I live not far from where those three American friends grew up who overcame the armed gunman on the train in France this weekend – three friends of mixed races who grew up finding community in something other than skin color – and for whom the ingrained racism that was “accepted wisdom” within the white Jim Crow community would today sound as foreign and offensive as both Muslim and Israeli extremists sound today. I have lived in both versions of the American community, and I repeat, it all depends upon how you define your community, how children grow up defining their community, taking cues from their parents and elders.

        Attributing my view to an “utterly obtuse lack of intelligence and humility” is a form of personal attack that reminds me of how any hint of defense of Civil Rights was greeted by that segregated community: “Oh, so you’re a N***** lover? Hey, everyone, get a load of this guy, hahaha.”

        I’m also reminded of that scene from Schindler’s List, where Schindler is hosing down the train full of Jews being sent off to die, in sympathy for their suffering in the heat, a form of identification and community, that was not felt by his other community, the Nazi officers who howled with laughter, sitting in the shade on the platform, joking that he was the cruelest of all, because he gave them hope.

        What is the point of building the State of Israel, if it will never find a sense of community with its neighbors? Why be at the cross-roads of many civilizations, if you’re vision of a nation is one with impenetrable walls?

  6. Les on August 24, 2015, 2:28 pm

    If Israel decided to write a constitution, would its Palestinian citizens be allowed to make any contribution? Would there be any mention of Israel’s borders?

    • hophmi on August 24, 2015, 4:33 pm

      Constitutions don’t usually talk about borders, but since Constitutions have to be ratified, why wouldn’t Palestinians be entitled to contribute and vote on it as they do with other questions in Israeli society?

  7. eljay on August 24, 2015, 2:46 pm

    … To imagine that Israelis and Palestinians can live together peaceably and freely in one country (let’s call it “Israstine”), you have to believe that the “Israstine” army, composed of joint Jewish-­Palestinian ­brigades, would hold together under enormous stress because its members are more loyal to “Israstine” than they are to being Jewish or Palestinian. That’s even more delusional than the two-state solution. More likely, “Israstine” would be civil war under a common flag. …

    I don’t see why Palestinians and non-Zionist Jews couldn’t be loyal to a secular and democratic state of Palestine (in Palestine) of and for all of its citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally.

    I don’t see how Zio-supremacists – who believe that all Jewish people in the world are entitled to a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much of Palestine as possible – could ever possibly be loyal to a secular and democratic state of Palestine (in Palestine) of and for all of its citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally.

    • eljay on August 24, 2015, 3:03 pm

      || eljay: … I don’t see why Palestinians and non-Zionist Jews couldn’t be loyal…

      Correction: … I don’t see why Palestinians, non-Jewish Israelis and non-Zionist Jewish Israelis couldn’t be loyal…

  8. mariapalestina on August 24, 2015, 3:07 pm

    Apologies for posting this here, but I don’t know of another way to reach admins. Don’t know why I keep missing MW posts. Sometimes I don’t get one for several days, so I sign up again, and then I fall out of the list again. And even when I do get the daily post from MW, I wonder how I can get the updated ones that I often see shared by others on Facebook a day before they reach me on the next day’s list posted by MW. I haven’t received anything again today. Can I get this resolved somehow? I often check my iPad at 5:04 am to see what Mondoweiss has for me today, and when it’s not there I feel lost and a bit neglected.

  9. Kay24 on August 24, 2015, 6:20 pm

    These zionists are unbelievable! Congressman Jerrold Nalder slammed for putting his President, party, and most of all his nation, over the zionists and Israel.

    They act crazy most of the time. They resort to ugly tactics and insults when they cannot control Americans who do what is best for Americans. I hope Nadler realizes that they can turn on him in an instant, and that he should not deal with these lunatics. I have never seen such ugly remarks, or reactions, from our other allies. In fact, I have never seen such interference either.

    “NY Jewish Congressman Slammed as ‘Traitor’ and ‘anti-Israel’ for Backing Iran Deal
    Orthodox politicians savage Democrat Jerrold Nadler, comparing him to rabbis who urged FDR to refuse sanctuary for Jews during the Holocaust.
    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/.premium-1.672695

    • MRW on August 24, 2015, 11:34 pm

      comparing him to rabbis who urged FDR to refuse sanctuary for Jews during the Holocaust.

      Finally, someone admits it.

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