Trending Topics:

‘NYT’ misrepresents Iran’s prediction about ‘Zionist regime’ to mean ‘Israel’

Middle East
on 222 Comments

The New York Times today has a story with a scary headline: “Iran’s Supreme Leader Says Israel Won’t Exist in 25 Years.” The first sentence repeats the idea that Iran’s leaders don’t want “Israel” to be around much longer.

Iran’s supreme leader predicted Wednesday that Israel would not exist in 25 years, . . .

This sounds alarming unless you’re familiar with the way the mainstream press has twisted Iranian leaders’ statements in the past. So patience is required because in the third paragraph Ayatollah Khamenei makes clear that he means not “Israel” but the “Zionist regime.”

“After nuclear negotiations, the Zionist regime said that they will not be worried about Iran in the next 25 years,” Ayatollah Khamenei wrote. “I am telling you, first, you will not be around in 25 years’ time, and God willing, there will be no Zionist regime in 25 years. Second, during this period, the spirit of fighting, heroism and jihad will keep you worried every moment.”

The name “Israel” never appears in any quote in this story. Just “the Zionist regime.” I would make the same distinction, actually; I want “Iran” to be around for much more than 25 years but I want the ayatollahs’ “theocratic regime” to be ended as soon as possible by a democratic movement among its population.

And many of us here at Mondo also want the “Zionist regime” in Israel to be gone a lot sooner than 25 years — and replaced by a democratic state or states that respect human rights.

James North
About James North

Other posts by .


Posted In:

222 Responses

  1. pabelmont
    pabelmont
    September 10, 2015, 12:00 pm

    As to Mondo’s wishes, amen.

  2. yourstruly
    yourstruly
    September 10, 2015, 12:29 pm

    Timeline for Dissolution of Zionist Regime

    2015 – Iran nuclear accord

    2016 – anti-Zionist movement pressures political candidates on special relationship, thereby influencing November election

    2017 – New President feels pressure from anti-Z’ers

    2018 – BDS seriously impacts Israeli economy

    2019 – exodus of Jewish-Israelis accelerates

    2020 – Israeli government agrees to no pre-conditions peace conference with Palestinians

    2021 – Dissolution of Zionist regime

    • Krauss
      Krauss
      September 10, 2015, 2:24 pm

      Hmm, not really.

      First, the GOP primary is a sideshow. They need 45% or more of the Latino vote to win. That will never happen, with or without Trump.

      So it is either Hillary or Sanders. Both are Zionists and Hillary is probably the worse of them.

      So this alone pushes the time table to 2024.

      After that, BDS will not really have a big effect economically. But culture is where it is at. Can Israel remain culturally isolated? So long as it can, there’s no obvious downfall. Israel can re-orient just as the U.S. can.

      • zaid
        zaid
        September 10, 2015, 10:22 pm

        Krauss

        the GOP could win if there were a terrorist attack or something on the USA

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        September 11, 2015, 11:44 am

        I guess I don’t understand the “culture” argument.
        NK seems to keep chugging along w/out a lot of culture.

    • inbound39
      inbound39
      September 10, 2015, 7:28 pm

      When Zionism was rejected by the UN it should never have been repealed. Zionism is modern days closest facsimile of the Brown Shirts. That should send alarm bells to anyone with a genuine conscience. Settler Actions are like a perpetual KrystalNacht supported and financed by the Zionist Regime of Israel and indirectectly financed and supported by U.S. and U.K. This special relationship has to end…..it is a moral obscenity.

  3. eljay
    eljay
    September 10, 2015, 12:33 pm

    … The name “Israel” never appears in any quote in this story. Just “the Zionist regime.” I would make the same distinction, actually; I want “Iran” to be around for much more than 25 years but I want the ayatollahs’ “theocratic regime” to be ended as soon as possible by a democratic movement among its population. And many of us here at Mondo also want the “Zionist regime” in Israel to be gone a lot sooner than 25 years — and replaced by democratic state or states that respect human rights. …

    Yup and yup. Both Israel and Iran should exist as secular and democratic states of and for all of their citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally. Neither state should exist – or has a right to exist – as a religion-supremacist (or any other type of supremacist ) state.

  4. John Douglas
    John Douglas
    September 10, 2015, 1:56 pm

    Thank you, James North, for keeping a keen eye on, “the paper of record”. I can only wonder how many times, before internet news and commentary sites, I had been misled by its sloppy and/or dishonest writing.

  5. DaBakr
    DaBakr
    September 10, 2015, 2:34 pm

    what an utterly stupid piece of word play. Iran has never -since the first day Khomeini took power- ever recognized the existence of Israel. if the level of ignorance or fanaticism required to believe this load of crap is indicative of the far-left then it is easy to see why so many historians see europe (and its progressive left-wing poodles in the west) in complete decline.

    next you can devote a whole thread to why when Iran screams “america is the great satan” and “death to America” they don’t really mean anything by it. author must truly believe (as only a true-beliver can) he’s so much more clever then anybody else . Very much like the idiots who claimedAnd then had the temerity to complain bitterly when the language shifted to encompass the more descriptive, “Jew-hater’.

    Sure the Mullahs don’t mean Israel any harm, because there is no Israel to them. Just that damn Zionist entity. brilliant. count on the left to defend Iran the way the left blindly idolized Stalin and ignored all forms of truth and common sense in favor of ideology. People and movements don’t really change very much. Just ebb and flow like the tides.

    • annie
      annie
      September 10, 2015, 2:50 pm

      Iran has never -since the first day Khomeini took power- ever recognized the existence of Israel.

      dab, could you provide a link to israel recognizing iran? thanks.

      Sure the Mullahs don’t mean Israel any harm

      just like israel means the mullahs no harm! it’s that mutual admiration thing they got going/snark.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 10, 2015, 8:50 pm

        Breathtaking whataboutism. Israel has never questioned the existence (or rights there of) of Persia or Iran. If the tyrant Khameini had said the likes of netanyahu and his party wont exist in 25 yrs it would be fair game. Nobody is denying there is no love lost between likud and the mullah regime.

        And come on Annie. ..provide a link? As if Israel has been requiring it’s citizens to scream death to Iran in the streets for over 30yrs. No sane nation has to explicity accept the existence of Iran.

        And @ej below,

        again, whataboutism. What you fantasize area israeli’war crimes’ has little to do with the mullahs calling for Israel to be destroyed, wether they use the term Israel or Zionist entity. Your semantic shenanigans are breathtaking in their asinine cynicism

      • annie
        annie
        September 10, 2015, 11:14 pm

        Israel has never questioned the existence (or rights there of) of Persia or Iran.

        so that would be a “no”, you cannot provide a link to israel recognizing iran? and are you now making the argument israel has never questioned the existence (or rights there of) of the Iranian regime?

        tsk tsk, words matter. double standards and hypocrisy, that’s your game. tag , you’re it.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 10, 2015, 9:56 pm

        || DaBakr: … And @ej below,

        again, whataboutism. ||

        Not at all. You really aren’t very good with words and their meanings.

        || … What you fantasize area israeli’war crimes’ has little to do with the mullahs calling for Israel to be destroyed … ||

        1. No need to fantasize – the crimes are quite evident.
        2. I never said there’s a connection.
        3. As I understand it, they’re calling for an end to a Zionist regime. I agree with that call. I also agree with calls to end the theocratic regime in Iran. I don’t believe either Israel or Iran should cease to exist except by the will of their respective citizenry.

        || … Your semantic shenanigans are breathtaking in their asinine cynicism ||

        Your blather is breathtaking in its hateful and immoral idiocy (or perhaps in its idiotic hatefulness and immorality).

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 11, 2015, 9:06 pm

        @an
        not a “no” annie. there was never any question that Israel has not recognized Iran. Its a country. Used to be an empire. Israel does business with it (more in the past). It implicitly and explicitly recognizes Iran and not one Israeli leader has ever made a statement that Israel does not recognize Iran. If I asked you to provide a link proving that the US recognizes Great Britains right to exist it would be a pretty absurd request. Likewise the link in question.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        September 12, 2015, 12:31 pm

        @DaBakr
        “there was never any question that Israel has not recognized Iran. Its a country. Used to be an empire. Israel does business with it (more in the past). It implicitly and explicitly recognizes Iran and not one Israeli leader has ever made a statement that Israel does not recognize Iran. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/09/misrepresents-prediction-zionist#comment-795763

        I’m not sure what trade has to do with it. Perhaps you can enlighten me? I do have to note that if that has any impact on explicit or implicit recognition of a state that Iran trades with Israel in the exact same amount of both transactions and dollar value. That is unless your delusional world consists of trading relationships only having one partner. Must be a funny world there. What’s the sky colour?

        Let’s not pretend Israel doesn’t intend and desire to harm both Iran and Iranians. It openly calls for regime change, bombings and even threatens to use nuclear weapons. While you might be able to kid the ignorant and deluded we all know that this will cause immense harm to innocent civilians. I can see the shrug and muttered collateral damge phrase now.

        Iran is not a saint in world affairs. To suggest Israel is in some way better is risible. Better for some Jewish people perhaps (provided they aren’t left wing) but not better for humanity.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 12, 2015, 7:04 pm

        @og

        you ramble on about points I never disputed nor made in the first place. Good job. Israel has still never denied the right of Iran to exist as a nation.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 12, 2015, 10:21 pm

        “That is unless your delusional world consists of trading relationships only having one partner.”

        Actually, since Israel hasn’t paid its bills, the trading relationship does look pretty much one-way.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 12, 2015, 10:56 pm

        ” Israel has still never denied the right of Iran to exist as a nation.”

        Oh, no, I knew this was a bad idea, but I thought I could save Seattle some money. “Dabakr”, stop digging! You’ve already overshot the North Portal, and you’re headed for Everett! Stop already!

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        September 13, 2015, 10:47 pm

        @Db

        Absolute bs and a total cop out. The best that can ever be expected from the likes of you though so well done.

    • eljay
      eljay
      September 10, 2015, 3:00 pm

      || DaBakr: … Iran has never -since the first day Khomeini took power- ever recognized the existence of Israel. … ||

      And yet that hasn’t stopped Israel from existing and engaging in (war) crimes for almost 70 years. Huh.

      || … next you can devote a whole thread to why when Iran screams “america is the great satan” and “death to America” they don’t really mean anything by it. … ||

      IMO, America is a great satan, but it’s not the only one.

      As for “death to America”, well, it’s been far less deadly than America’s “regime change” and “shock-and-awe”. I condemn all three.

      || … count on the left to defend Iran the way the left blindly idolized Stalin and ignored all forms of truth and common sense in favor of ideology. … ||

      Blind idolization and ignoring all forms of truth and common sense in favour of ideology: You’ve described Zio-supremacism very well.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        September 11, 2015, 3:53 am

        The US press and political reps have been misquoting Iranian statements that the Zionist regime will vanish from history for a long time now; the oblique historical reference is to past regimes such as Hitler’s Mussolini’s, and the USSR, not to mention the apartheid S African regime. In all such cases none of the parent states have vanished.

    • Xpat
      Xpat
      September 10, 2015, 3:26 pm

      DB – Israelis and Zionists take “Zionist entity” as an Arab euphemism. The argument is that the Arabs hate Israel (and Jews) so much that they cannot even bring themselves to utter the word “Israel”. But there is no evidence for that. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence going back to Israel’s founding that Palestinians and Arabs in general were willing to make peace with Israel. But they were weren’t willing to give in to an expansionist ideology claiming to represent millions non- resident, non-citizens from around the world who could show up at any moment and disrupt any delicate accord that had been reached.

      And since this distraction is being used to bring us yet more American military intervention with more war, more bloodshed and more wasted years, I’m with Khamenei on this.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 10, 2015, 9:01 pm

        Great. You have suceeded in turning the entire narrative of the I/P conflict on its head. Soon, because everything is in motion this whole ruse to upend history will backfire and Israel will come full circle from scrappy upstart to nazi villians back to victim and back to scrappy upstart. All the time growing is economy and regional strength. Iran may have billions to spend on its expansionist policy into lebanon,Syria, Yemen, KSA,etc but they are lightyears behind in the technology that will determine who remains as regional power.

        Just look at Irans “best buds”. Assad, Putin, ilJong. What a joke

      • zaid
        zaid
        September 10, 2015, 10:31 pm

        Israel wont exist a month without external support, which is something Iran never had and doesnot even need.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 11:25 am

        “Great. You have suceeded in turning the entire narrative of the I/P conflict on its head.”

        You bet, “Dabacle”! Everybody knows the Jews were living peacefully in Palestine when European Palestinians and American Palestinians swooped in and took the place over.

      • Xpat
        Xpat
        September 11, 2015, 2:05 pm

        DB – “you have suceeded in turning the entire narrative of the I/P conflict on its head.”

        Yes, that’s the work that a lot of us here have done and continue to do. Re-evaluating received truths about Zionism and Israel in light of our political commitments. We are helped by the Internet, an ever-growing body of hard evidence and a community like this which shares information.

        The understanding that “Zionist entity” is not a dig but means just what it says is something that stands on first hand reports of Jews and no-Jews, Americans and Israelis who had confidential conversations with Arab leaders going back to the beginning of the State of Israel.

        And if that upends the received Zionist narrative of history, that’s a good thing.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 11, 2015, 9:15 pm

        Yes elliot-I do understand what the billion dollar Palestinian PR machine is attempting to do. Part of their mission is to brainwash people like you-in the belief that Israelis successfully brainwashed American and Europe to support Israel for so many years after ww2. Fire w fire and all that. But sure- the truth is a funny thing

      • Xpat
        Xpat
        September 11, 2015, 9:55 pm

        DB –
        I assume you know that I am Israeli. I was indoctrinated with so many distortions of history which left me cold to Palestinian suffering. I would see the empty houses of Lifta every day at the western entrance to Jerusalem, I played in those houses yet I never made the human connection to the people who built those houses and lived there before I came along; in all my years in Israel I never befriended a Palestinian; it took me until just a few years ago to really own the simple fact that over 750,000 Palestinians had to leave Palestine to make way for me and my fellow Jewish Israelis; I had no sense that Palestinians had roots in the land, that it was their land that I was taking.

        The best I could do was find overt anti-Arab racism distasteful, reject the occupation and generally try to be nice.
        I was the successful product of an education system that – to use your word – brainwashes as essential mental preparation for every Israeli’s first job as an adult, i.e. enforcing the Occupation and terrorizing other Palestinians in Gaza and Lebanon. Because that is the main job of the IDF.

        I never understood that the JNF’s forests are literally a coverup for the Nakba. These wonderful green forests (“look how brown and bare South Lebanon is next to the green Galillee”) were planted on the ruins of hundreds of Palestinian villages. I never questioned the fairness of bringing millions of non-residents from around the world into an already populated land.

        I could go on and on. And I am still uncovering more of my prejudices. If I could lay my hands on even a small part of that billion (dollars?) you referenced as payment for all the time I’ve spent undoing the damage of years of indoctrination, let me know who to go to for that. Much appreciated.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        September 11, 2015, 10:02 pm

        Beautiful, man.

      • annie
        annie
        September 11, 2015, 10:05 pm

        thanks elliot.

        dab, what billion dollar Palestinian PR machine? please link.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 11, 2015, 10:09 pm

        || Elliot @ September 11, 2015, 9:55 pm ||

        Thank you for your post, Elliot, and much respect to you.

        You are a moral giant, beside whom DaBakr and other Zio-supremacists – like supremacists of all stripes – are hateful and immoral gnats.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 12, 2015, 2:15 am

        Yes Elliot. I know you are Israeli. I sometimes wonder about citizens like you who somehow did not get the same education I know of where I absolutely learned of displaced Palestinians, refugees and some villages being forgotten while Israel built up its new state. I sometimes wonder that poor handwringing souls such as yourself will bring much decision to Israel while you let yourself on the back and making yourself feel so good, so righteous, so sorry that your people actually survived only to return to the ancestral homeland. So you feel guilty about this and wrong your hands. You care for the other at the expense of your own. This is a sin of self righteousness. But I’m sure you know what’s best for your should and would love to dictate what’s good for the rest of our soul’s as well.

        Im sure if you wanted, you could apply to work for the PA through any number of its(or the UNRWA S group) local and EU. Ngos as a Palestinian hasbarist and you might make enough to have a falafel on the street

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak
        September 12, 2015, 11:18 am

        DaBakr: You care for the other at the expense of your own.

        ———————–

        Or perhaps he doesn’t categorically divide humanity into “his own” and “the other.”

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 12, 2015, 12:38 pm

        You care for the other at the expense of your own. This is a sin of self righteousness. “

        You care for the other at the expense of your own. This is a sin of self righteousness.

        “Rebbe Dabakr” is in the house! And laying down the mitzvot to all and sundry. I fell out of my chair laughing at this one!
        Of course, I have no doubt “Rebbe Debacle” is gonna back this up with some elapsed times, uh, I mean chapter and verse from the Talmud or Mishnah or something. Ah, this is Jewish theology and morality at its finest. This is a new kind of light for the nations!

        “I sometimes wonder about citizens like you who somehow did not get the same education I know of”

        Oh yeah, you got one heck of an education, Dabakr. You were, without a doubt “carefully taught”

      • Xpat
        Xpat
        September 12, 2015, 12:47 pm

        DB –
        Obviously, the real world successes of the BDS movement is just the opposite of liberal Zionist handwringing.
        The telltale sign that the money slur traditionally used against Jews was racist nonsense was that Jews were simultaneously accused of being internationalist communists and rapacious capitalists. Better to stick to one or the other. In this exchange alone, you slurred the Palestinians for their “billion dollar PR campaign” and also mocked them for not being able to afford the price of a falafel.
        Honestly, I don’t feel the guilt you ascribe to me. Perhaps I should, but I don’t. I don’t even feel guilty for not feeling guilty. So there. I do feel that I have woken up from a state of unconsciousness and am eager to expose the ones drugging others. And I feel a human connection to Palestinians that I never felt before. My world has expanded and I am excited about that. I wish I could do more to move the tide of history along.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 12, 2015, 1:20 pm

        “You care for the other at the expense of your own. This is a sin of self righteousness.”

        And gee, since anything, no matter how small, that I give away is “at the expense of my own” the obvious conclusion, the way to avoid this “sin of self-righteousness” is to give nothin’ to nobody, no time (as an old song says)!!

        And of course, if you are very moral, you see that anything “the other” has, is something you should have for “your own”, so the most moral thing, of course, is to go and take it away from him.

        And pretty soon, Israeli archeologists will discover the location of “The Fountainhead” in Palestine, and claim it as a Holy Site.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 12, 2015, 7:20 pm

        I hear a lot of left-wing commentators harping about ‘morality’ as if they have a lock on what that is. As if a people can not look after their ‘own’ without caring for others. As if embracing a ‘one-world’ philosophy is the only moral outlook on life. If Israel was as demonic as Elliot has suddenly realized why hasn’t he fled as there are no laws binding anybody to remain. Such moral giants have the temerity to lecture on ‘morality’ when they only know how to lay blame and emote shame for their formerly wanton ways.

        @Z
        Saying Iran has not relied on support is ridiculous. Its just that the only powers that would support Iran are the Putins, il Jongs, Chavezistas and a few other despots. A joke that the Iranian people have to suffer for.

      • Xpat
        Xpat
        September 12, 2015, 8:49 pm

        DB –
        “If Israel was as demonic as Elliot has suddenly realized why hasn’t he fled as there are no laws binding anybody to remain. Such moral giants have the temerity to lecture on ‘morality’ when they only know how to lay blame and emote shame for their formerly wanton ways.”

        I never used the word ‘morality’. This conversation might make you feel bad but that’s not the point. (Although, it’s ok to feel bad about this stuff). The point is not to make you feel lectured, blamed or shamed. Neither does it matter whether I, or anybody else, is morally gargantuan, wanton or just formerly wanton. It’s not about me. It’s not about you. This website is about the war of ideas in the Middle East. It’s about Palestinian human rights. It’s about Jewish culpability, U.S. culpability, Jewish amnesia, American blithe obliviousness among others.

        You may have missed this but I did leave Israel. I chose to do so not for any high minded reason or for any particular necessity. It was just that I decided that I didn’t want to build my life in Israel. Although I cannot imagine it now, had I had a different set of personal circumstances, I might well have stayed. And that would have been ‘morally’ fine. I do think that to stay in Israel and not become complicit or willfully oblivious you do need a particular strength of character. I don’t know if I would have measured up. Israelis like Gideon Levy, and others who are not known to the public, are inspirational figures. They lead the rest of us in thinking clearly and moving to bold action.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 12, 2015, 10:48 pm

        Ok Elliot, your correct in pointing out that others brought ‘ morality’ into this thread.

        And yes, I agree this site SEEMS to be about the war of ideas I the ME and surely all are entitled to their opinions. That you left Israel(4 whatever very reason) shows you back your opinion up with action. I can’t complain about that. I reread your original post and can only say that while I could dispute much of what you said with counter arguments I can accept that you have come to the conclusion that you were brainwashed about the reasons why the state of Israel has not been able to negotiate an end to the hostilities. It’s too broad of a subject to delve into and most of the commenters better not only agree with you but many believe Israel has no legitimate right to exist.( Perhaps you don’t either).
        On this site however, you are either against Zionism or you are a racist supremacist. There is no in between in ME world. Just the slightly more guilty liberal supremacist Israel supporters. Good luck to you*

      • annie
        annie
        September 13, 2015, 1:06 am

        you are either against Zionism or you are a racist supremacist. There is no in between

        ethnic nationalism is predicated upon civically privileging one ethnicity over others. is it not?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 13, 2015, 2:30 am

        ” better not only agree with you but many believe Israel has no legitimate right to exist.( Perhaps you don’t either).

        Nobody is saying Israel can’t exist, only that a) it must live up to the promises and declarations it made which were the agreements on which the state was founded by the world. b) Israel has no right, especially while it is consistently intransigent in so many ways, to parasitically suck off the US, and give little or nothing in return.
        You want a “legitimate right to exist”? Live on your own resources, within your borders (or in a one-state OMOV) in a democratic state make the arrangements and reparations necessary for peace and restitution.

        “On this site however, you are either against Zionism or you are a racist supremacist.”

        See the “about” page. And some day you might even grasp the difference between the postings on Mondoweiss, and the comment section, and how it works.

      • Xpat
        Xpat
        September 13, 2015, 8:42 am

        DB –
        “It’s too broad of a subject to delve into”

        and yet, we do exactly that here every day on multiple threads.

        “many believe Israel has no legitimate right to exist.”

        Is that not a legitimate idea in your book? If so, make the case. If your like, respond to Annie’s last comment.

        “On this site however, you are either against Zionism or you are a racist supremacist.”

        Mooser responded to that already.

        “There is no in between in ME world. Just the slightly more guilty liberal supremacist Israel supporters”

        If you don’t like people’s shorthand, then address the issue and make the case.

        It’s great that you are here. Is it fair to say that you recognize that this is not just an internal conversation between Israelis. I think that’s right. Happy New Year.

      • diasp0ra
        diasp0ra
        September 13, 2015, 1:34 pm

        @DaBakr

        “On this site however, you are either against Zionism or you are a racist supremacist. There is no in between in ME world. Just the slightly more guilty liberal supremacist Israel supporters.”

        There are issues where you can’t be inbetween. You want people to be moderates. You can’t be a moderate here. Here is a lovely quote from Lucas Zucker:

        “Simply because there are people out there who are saying something, does not mean that they are in some way also equally right. There were people who said that the freeing of slaves in this country would collapse our economy, who said that giving women the right to vote would destroy our democracy, who said that the government had no business helping poor kids go to school instead of work in the factories. What did the moderates say then? They insisted that both sides just weren’t listening to each other, everyone was at fault for being so polarized, and that we should look at both sides of the issue and weigh them equally.”

        Are you going to argue that there was a middle ground in those situations? Spare me your middle ground fallacy. Colonialism is wrong. End of the story. There can be no discussion in this.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 13, 2015, 2:36 pm

        || DaBakr: … On this site however, you are either against Zionism or you are a racist supremacist. There is no in between in ME world. … ||

        You know something’s not right with a person when he argues in favour of some amount of “racist supremacism”.

        You know, too, that the person is a hypocrite because – as his comments archive shows – he is opposed to anti-Semitism. (“Racist supremacism” is fine when Jews do it others, but not when others do it to Jews.)

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 13, 2015, 8:01 pm

        Great quote, diaspora.*

        “There are two sides to every story” (and why only two? Rashomon has more) should not be taken to mean that we cannot or should not judge between the sides.

        (*It would be better without the comma after the subject clause in the first sentence. Why do people keep doing that?)

      • zaid
        zaid
        September 14, 2015, 1:25 pm

        @Dabakr

        “Ancestral homeland”

        is this a joke!

        man you are entitled to believe in your national myths just like any other nation, but dont come forcing yourself to my home and force your myth (lies) on me.

      • Danaa
        Danaa
        September 15, 2015, 4:05 am

        Elliot, I admire your temperateness. I know i couldn’t hold my tongue/pen in the face of dissembling disseminations of someone like Debakr. I no longer have the patience to wade through the cluttered consciences of the apologists. Put a note for you on your very own thread (and a well deserved one it was, too).

        BTW, the tell tale sign of a hopleless clash, athe heart of the Gordian knot, is when they get to the pressing question of questions: “do you or don’t you believe in Israel’s right to exist”. This is waved like a Democles sword, ready to come down on all and sundry. FWIW, I stopped answering this question a while back, when i realize it’s not really a question.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      September 10, 2015, 7:32 pm

      “Iran has never -since the first day Khomeini took power- ever recognized the existence of Israel.”

      So what? Iran certainly knows there is a Zionist regime there, and A. K. is suggesting that regime will not be there in 25 years.

      Let’s hope the deadbeats pay their bill before they disappear.

      http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2015/05/21/swiss-court-rules-israel-owes-iran-1-1-billion-from-oil-dispute/

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 10, 2015, 9:09 pm

        You want to pretend the Mullah is just musing out loud, to the world press? You know damn well you’d pick the Zionist entity to live in over iran because you’d have to do without MW in Iran as you would e easily land in Evan prison*

        Most of the top Iranian negotiators have homes in the west. But you don’t wonder why is not the other way around. Europe will collapse and the Israelis and Iranians will be trading partners before Israel collapses

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 11, 2015, 12:11 am

        “You want to pretend the Mullah is just musing out loud, to the world press?”

        No, I think he is making a prediction about how he expects things to work out. He expects an end to the Zionist regime. This is not the same as a collapse of Israel.

        “Europe will collapse and the Israelis and Iranians will be trading partners before Israel collapses”

        Israel and Iran have been trading partners quite recently, but I suspect they won’t do much more trading until Israel pays its bills.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 11, 2015, 9:21 pm

        Oh right. I get it now. The Zionist regime will come to an end when the Palestinians all return and when they have plurality in both Israel and the territories I am sure they will keep the name ‘Israel’ even thought they have been chanting about Palestine-from river to sea for decades.
        Why do so many MW commenters play so stupid with such basic and obvious incidents like the recent press conference when Khameini explicitly said the Zionist entity will no longer exist. (he did not qualify the statement to mean, “oh yeah, btw, I don’t mean Israel will cease to exist-just the Zionist entity”. your only fooling yourself with this game. The mullah would laugh at (or at least appreciate ) your true-believer zeal for interpreting what he and his cronies ‘really’ mean. Stalin had a lot of folks in the US left doing that for him as well. Some still do make a case for Stalin.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 11, 2015, 9:53 pm

        || DaBakr: Oh right. I get it now. The Zionist regime will come to an end when the Palestinians all return and when they have plurality in both Israel and the territories I am sure they will keep the name ‘Israel’ even thought they have been chanting about Palestine-from river to sea for decades. … ||

        The Zionist regime will come to an end when Israel stops being a supremacist “Jewish State” – a state primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews – and starts being a secular and democratic Israeli state – a state of and for all of its Israeli citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally.

        What the Israeli citizens of a “Zionist regime”-free, secular and democratic Israel decide to do on their own or in conjunction with the Palestinian citizens of a secular and democratic Palestine is entirely up to the citizens of those two secular and democratic countries and their respective democratic processes.

        Only a supremacist would object to such a development. Zio-supremacists have more in common with Islamofascists than they like to admit.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 12, 2015, 2:26 am

        @eh

        You can throw supremacist around as much as you like as it’s no insult to me. If the mullahs who own Iran can be “supreme” leaders then it’s good enough for me.

        Fyi, Israel is always going to be a nation primarily for Jews with an active minority. It isn’t going to be rearranged to suit your left wing fantasy of a democratic 1person-1vote system. You must really think your average middle center Israeli is as stupid a your average lefty winter. And also, the Jews will not cede their sovereignty , control of thei’d borders and control of the military borders with Arab states. We are not rolling out a welcome mat to radical Islamic regimes.

        But keep up the good work translating what the supremely supreme leader of Iran really means since he is too stupid to know how to properly state his words.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 12, 2015, 9:25 am

        || DaBakr: … Fyi, Israel is always going to be a nation primarily for Jews … ||

        Spoke like a proud Zio-supremacist. “All hail the Thousand Year Reich ‘Jewish State’!”, eh? Well, I hope you don’t cry too much when the pipe-dream finally ends… :-(

        || … It isn’t going to be rearranged to suit your left wing fantasy of a democratic 1person-1vote system. … ||

        You have a very creepy fixation with attributing fantasies to me.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 12, 2015, 7:23 pm

        @ej

        that’s right. lose an argument and accuse the winner of being ‘fixated’. i could care less about you except when i respond to an inane post.

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 12, 2015, 8:11 pm

        || DaBakr: @ej

        that’s right. lose an argument … ||

        That’s right, you did lose one.

        || … and accuse the winner of being ‘fixated’. … ||

        When you keep telling me what my fantasies are, it’s clear that you have a fixation. And that’s just creepy.

        || … i could care less about you … ||

        …but you’re so busy thinking about what I fantasize that you forget to care less. I guess I’m flattered…in a creeped out sort of way.

      • annie
        annie
        September 12, 2015, 8:29 pm

        that’s right. lose an argument and accuse the winner of being ‘fixated’.

        hmm, eljay didn’t lose the argument, in fact you pretty much confirmed his allegations when you wrote:

        You can throw supremacist around as much as you like as it’s no insult to me…… it’s good enough for me.

        also, 1 person one vote is not a “left wing fantasy” it happens to be one of the definitions of a democracy, which clearly israel isn’t.

        you seem to be getting hot and bothered. it takes more than a declaration of ‘i won’ and ‘i’m right’ to win any argument.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 17, 2015, 7:58 pm

        @annie
        1 person/1 vote. You mean the kind of ‘democracy the US isn’t? That GB isn’t?. Just because there is not a pure 1person/1vote system does not mean the nation is not democratic. You can argue how the US is a republican federation but its a democracy. Israel has a parliamentary system but is a democracy. it is frightening to thing how narrow that leftists define a working democracy when-afaik-the only 1 man/1 vote
        experiments were in actuality One Man/ One Vote/ One Time/ Only like Zimbabwe, Angola, Zambia, etc.
        And ej ‘lost’ because he resorted to hyperbole instead of dissent. And yes-its true that the term ‘supremacist’ has come to mean almost nothing, zero, nada since its misuse on leftist blog sites.
        (maybe right-wing sites too? I wouldn’t know except for EoZ occasionally as he is the most diligent and honest reporter and pro-Zionist I can think of (though I am sure you believe he is a liar and a scourge. lol). And I tell him what his ‘fantasies’ are because I believe what he thinks is going to happen in the ME and the i/p is just that-an anti-Tzionist fantasy. I could be wrong-but I don’t think so.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        September 18, 2015, 9:37 am

        Attempts at nuance from Dabakr.
        Nice.

        1. Maybe you’d like to comment on the last couple Iranian elections.

        2. For sure you’d like to practice your nuance skills after you read Israel’s democracy index ranking.

      • straightline
        straightline
        September 17, 2015, 11:25 pm

        Can you explain DeBakr in what way UK is not one person one vote?

        And check out Israel on this page:

        http://democracyranking.org/?page_id=14

      • eljay
        eljay
        September 18, 2015, 9:38 am

        || DaBakr: … And ej ‘lost’ because he resorted to hyperbole instead of dissent. … ||

        You’re still fantasizing about me. And it’s still creepy.

        || … And yes-its true that the term ‘supremacist’ has come to mean almost nothing … ||

        The term “supremacist” hasn’t lost its meaning. Zio-supremacists like you ensure that it remains relevant.

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      September 12, 2015, 12:21 am

      Stop being such a cry baby Dabakr.

      Israel and the US have been calling and pushing for regime change in Tehran for decades and they have done so openly.

      Yet when tables are turned, you are outraged. Typical Zionist hypocrisy.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 12, 2015, 2:32 am

        Seems like your the one whining. I willing to accept the supremist of supreme mullah at his word. Unlike you- I don’t treat him like a10yr old regard who is incapable of knowing what he really meant. Left winters like you always blame Israel and the US. Israel had no motivation or reason to get into any I’m will with Tehran after the shah. You looks act like the shah had only one friend I the world…Israel and that is who ALL educated Iranians blame. Your so predictably narrow minded and shangry that your too easy to brush off

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        September 12, 2015, 8:44 am

        Dabakr has figured out what voice rec. software is for. So he can drink with both hands.

    • DaBakr
      DaBakr
      September 13, 2015, 9:43 pm

      @msr
      as usual-I have no idea what your rambling on about. maybe there is a secret ‘club’ on MW and only they understand your inane and supercilious comments. i can tell that you entertain yourself frequently, well and often

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 13, 2015, 10:09 pm

        “as usual-I have no idea what your rambling on about. “

        Of course not. Don’t even try, you won’t be able to understand it. And don’t be concerned, I don’t expect you to understand it. You just go on being your big bad self, and making more friends for anti-zionism.

  6. Kay24
    Kay24
    September 10, 2015, 2:40 pm

    So Boehner decides to make an ass of himself. lawsuit against Obama to stop the Iran deal, really? Those tanning beds must affect the brain somehow. :))

    “WASHINGTON — House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) said Thursday that all options are on the table in the fight to stop the Iran nuclear deal from moving forward, including suing the president.

    Boehner said a lawsuit against President Barack Obama over the deal is “an option that is very possible.”

    Just hours after returning from summer recess, Boehner found himself in the middle of a revolt mounted by conservative members of his caucus who want to delay a vote on a resolution of disapproval on the Iran deal, insisting the administration broke the law.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/boehner-suing-obama-iran_55f1a8c5e4b03784e2783aca

    • Kay24
      Kay24
      September 10, 2015, 2:41 pm

      My edit feature does not work anymore. :((

      • annie
        annie
        September 10, 2015, 2:45 pm

        ever? even right after you write it? it’s supposed to work for 10 minutes.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 10, 2015, 2:46 pm

        @k
        ..edit feature seems to be ‘off’ at present.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        September 10, 2015, 3:55 pm

        No it has not worked for weeks now. When I click on the Edit button, a blank space comes up without my comment on it. Weird. Hope someone can tell me how to get this sorted out.

      • amigo
        amigo
        September 10, 2015, 5:01 pm

        “.edit feature seems to be ‘off’ at present.” dabakr

        Why the sudden concern.You never bothered to edit your errors before.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 10, 2015, 9:17 pm

        @am

        You never considered “never bothered” was due to a down edit function? Why are you so concerned ?
        Without a working edit function i might let a compliment slip by?

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 11:27 am

        “My edit feature does not work anymore.”

        Can’t help you here. I’ve never used the “edit” feature. All my comments are served up fresh on the half-shell.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        September 11, 2015, 12:15 pm

        Mooser again. Never pass an opportunity to make a treif comment.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        September 11, 2015, 1:03 pm

        Mooser, I just serve it that way too. Typos? Never mind.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 1:39 pm

        “Mooser again. Never pass an opportunity to make a treif comment.”

        Ouch! I guess I can be sort of a ham.
        Anyway, my standards for Kashruth are at least as good as the Jewish caterer for the the July 11, 1883 banquet in Cincinnati to honor the first ordination class of Hebrew Union College.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 2:36 pm

        From the link:

        Rabbi Lance J. Sussman, writes in the Spring 2005 issue of the Journal of the American Jewish Archives:

        “Ironically and sadly, a celebration in honor of the first ordination class of the Hebrew Union College (HUC), which was supposed to signal a new era of intrafaith cooperation among American Jews, instead proved to be a call to arms and contributed to the permanent factionalization of American Jewish religious life.”

        A “permanent factionalization of American Jewish religious life”? Well, yes, over something really important, like bad catering.

        Gee, that’s funny, Rabbi Sussman’s paper was there last time I accessed it to read and link it at Mondo. Wonder what happened since then? The “Commentary” link, darning Rabbi Wise as a sort of Reform Radical was still there.

        (Sorry for wandering OT)

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 3:02 pm

        Here is Rabbi Sussman’s paper. With footnotes on Appel’s Commentary article.
        Okay, that’s all. Sorry.

    • annie
      annie
      September 10, 2015, 2:47 pm

      israel should just sue the US in US courts because the prez doesn’t follow instructions from their lobby.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        September 10, 2015, 3:58 pm

        Good point Annie. Yes, that would teach President O to not disobey the dark side. :))

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 11, 2015, 9:32 pm

        Israeli opinion is mostly that the deal is done and its time to focus on the day after the ‘deal’ is implemented (sanction relief). While Netanyahu has stated he will not cease to keep staring that he thinks the ‘deal’ was a poor one for both American and Israeli interests there is nothing to suggest he (or the Knesset) doesn’t respect that the US legislature and President have spoken and its a done deal.

        As for further lobbying of congress to make the ‘deal’ harder of Iran to abuse- there is nothing in US law that states the congress can not modify or pass further laws which will apply to Iran should Iran deserve further sanctions.

        And as for the ridiculous notion that AIPAC is (or was) the most ‘powerful lobby’ here is a LINK-[yes-i actually found cause to link] to a site that is most decidedly ANTI Israel ANTI Zionist and anti-everything that has to do with Israel-The Angry Arab citing a list of the top 10 nations paying for influence in the US government. So much for the protocols.

        Tuesday, September 08, 2015-Angry Arab News Service -Top 10 foreign governments paying for influence in the US in 2013
        To

        Tuesday, September 08, 2015
        Top 10 foreign governments paying for influence in the US in 2013
        Top 10 foreign governments paying for influence in 2013
        1. UAE 14.2 million
        2. Germany $12 million
        3. Canada $11.2 million
        4. Saudi Arabia $11.1 million
        5. Mexico $6.1 million
        6. Morocco $4 million
        7. South Korea $3.9 million
        8. Republika Srpska (Bosnian Serb Republic) $2.4 million
        9. Georgia $2.3 million
        10. Azerbaijan $2.3 million
        Source: Sunlight Foundation

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        September 12, 2015, 12:24 am

        there is nothing in US law that states the congress can not modify or pass further laws which will apply to Iran should Iran deserve further sanctions.

        In other words, they are trying to sabotage the deal and will do whatever it takes to undermine it, even if Iran stick to the letter of the deal. As soon as the deal was announced, Israeli puppets began insisting that the deal should include the usual crap relating to terrorism and Iran behavior in the region, even though it had nothing to do with any of it.

        Top 10 foreign governments paying for influence in the US in 2013

        Lame. Sheldon Adelson alone poured $80 million into the last US presidential election.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 12, 2015, 2:37 am

        If Iran sticks to the spirit of he deal and complies (even though it says it won’t) them there should be no radio to sabatage any deal. What you call sabotage is what more then half of Americans support as measures too close the numerous loopholes that Obama allowed through. I would think that everybody hopes the deal works out even if many are supremely skeptical.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        September 12, 2015, 9:08 am

        DBKR, none of those top 10 nations that try to buy influence in the US, can measure up to the influence Israel as exerted over every avenue of government, congress, think tanks, media, and openly getting their agents here like Adelson to pour in millions to place an Israeli puppet in the WH.
        Remember?

        “In 2012 Adelson famously spent at least $100 million funding Republican candidates, though he received a backlash of criticism for heavily bankrolling the primary campaign of former Republican House Speaker Newt Gingrich — to the tune of $15 million — “a long shot who used the money and time it afforded him to eviscerate Mitt Romney, the party’s eventual nominee, with political attack ads,” according to the Times.”

        Adelson and his ilk seem to be wasting their money trying to buy elections, and it is enjoyable to see that money all go down the drain, when their pro Israeli candidate LOSES.

        It seems recently the wealthy zionist donors who put in $40 million for an unamerican campaign against a deal avoiding a war with Iran, realized how foolish that attempt to influence the American public was – they lost that expensive effort too.

        As for the UAE, when the US media is owned by them, I will start to worry.

        !

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 13, 2015, 9:51 pm

        @k

        so then you either think the list , by not having Israel upon it is either wrong or part of the conspiracy to cover over the ‘real’ story that Israel and AIPAC ‘own’ the US congress and MSM even though-wait-their efforts to quash the Obama ‘deal’ with Iran failed -which I then suppose means-Israel is pretty lousy at ‘controlling’ the US strings of power if they couldn’t squash a simple ‘deal’ that isn’t even an enforceable treaty. I am sure you would gladly twist your mind into pretzels to expelling how Israel can both control the MSM while at the same time the MSM came out for the Iran deal while almost all Israelis were against it and the all powerful apiece failed to ‘control’ anything regardless of how much money they spent (against an almost equal amount to defend it). But then ‘twisted logic’ is what you do best when it comes to Jews, Israel and the US gov’t.

      • tree
        tree
        September 13, 2015, 11:44 pm

        And as for the ridiculous notion that AIPAC is (or was) the most ‘powerful lobby’ here is a LINK-[yes-i actually found cause to link] to a site that is most decidedly ANTI Israel ANTI Zionist and anti-everything that has to do with Israel-The Angry Arab citing a list of the top 10 nations paying for influence in the US government. So much for the protocols.

        I’m not sure whether your problem is poor reading comprehension or faulty logic. AIPAC is not a foreign country. Therefore it would not be on the list of top ten foreign governments paying for influence, or even on the list of bottom ten foreign governments. Its funny how lists work that way, but if your group doesn’t fit the definition of the list, it doesn’t appear on the list, no matter how much it spends.

        However, the fact that AIPAC et al spent some $40 million on just one issue this year means that if it was a foreign government it would be at the top of the list and the amount spent would be greater than the top 3 countries combined. If you add in all the associated pro-Israel lobbying groups’ and PACs’ 2015 spending it would dwarf that of all 10 of the foreign governments.

        P.S. you didn’t link to the article you cited. You just copied and pasted. Here’s what an actual link looks like:

        http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2015/09/top-10-foreign-governments-paying-for.html

        You can accomplish this yourself by copying the url for the article you wish to link and pasting it in your comment.

      • annie
        annie
        September 14, 2015, 12:31 am

        Source: Sunlight Foundation

        that was a the base of arab angry’s “list”, so i checked it out. only it goes to > http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/wp/2014/05/14/which-foreign-countries-spent-the-most-to-influence-u-s-politics/

        hysterical!:

        Other allies like England and France didn’t register on Sunlight’s list. And Israel, which already has huge U.S. political pull through domestic organizations, spent only $1,250. Meanwhile, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, the well-connected pro-Israel group based in the United States, spent close to $3 million on lobbying last year.

        hahahahaha

      • annie
        annie
        September 14, 2015, 1:01 am

        maybe wapo just didn’t know how to use the sunlight foundations interactive tool. even they didn’t claim israel only spent $1,250.

        http://foreign.influenceexplorer.com/location-profile/209

        State Of Israel

        Total of processed payments reported in 2013:

        $1,498,855.66 Information

        and:

        World Zionist Organization

        The foreign principal on whose behalf the registrant functions in the United States is the World Zionist Organization (WZO) whose main office is located in Jerusalem, Israel.
        Total of processed payments reported in 2013:

        $8,926,466.00 Information

        Israel Ministry Of Tourism

        Total of processed payments reported in 2013:

        $208,909.82 Information

        Plasan Sasa Ltd

        Total of processed payments reported in 2013:

        $1,250.00 Information

        those equal
        10,635,481.48

        and doesn’t include:

        Jewish Agency For Israel

        Client type: Special Status

        which has some buried 10 million dollar amount from 2011 oddly.

        maybe wapo couldn’t figure out how to work with sunlights new interactive map. either way, it would definitely make it into the top ten, according to source: sunlight http://sunlightfoundation.com/press/releases/2014/05/07/sunlight-foundation-launches-foreign-influence-exp/

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 17, 2015, 8:04 pm

        @tr
        Oh wow- a useful tip on ‘links’ from tree. thnks. but I’m usually to fast to check if the link pastes live. I assure you-I did not do it on purpose and I doubt I will link much more in the future either.

        As for the point of the link-is it not on MW that the idea that ISreal (yes Isreal) in cahoots with the Israeli lobby in the US runs the US congress, msm, supreme court and most higher educational facilities as well? Forgive me If I am mistaken and there has never been any allusion to that on MW.
        And of course the big deflection is: of course nobody here is upset with any of the other nations trying to buy influence. Only Israel is our main concern. Got it.

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        September 18, 2015, 9:28 am

        “Only Israel is our main concern.”

        Time to refresh your memory again. Read the MW About page again, dude/dudette.

    • amigo
      amigo
      September 10, 2015, 3:25 pm

      Boehner said a lawsuit against President Barack Obama over the deal is “an option that is very possible.” Kay 24

      The other members of the P5 +1 must be laughing their rear ends off .They are busy opening embassies in Tehran and negotiating mega deals while the republicans are bent on committing GNP suicide.

      I wonder how long the US multi nationals will sit back and allow their profits to be “crimped ” just for Israel,s sake before they make a few phone calls to Boehner and co.And think what this will do for the almighty dollar.I thought Republicans were pro business.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        September 10, 2015, 4:04 pm

        You are right about the other nations. Some have already started their trade deals with them, and opened up offices and embassies. It seems those lucky nations have more intelligent leaders, and supportive opposition, when it comes to doing the best for their nations.
        We are stuck with politicians who cannot stand the thought of a black man succeeding in policies that may serve the country well, and only want to drop bombs over Islamic nations.
        They are also expecting Jesus Christ to make a second appearance in a non Christian land.
        It makes no sense at all.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        September 11, 2015, 4:19 am

        Seems the very pro-business GOP looks the other way where Israel is concerned, e.g., first FTA was with Israel, was the product of negotiations undermined by Israel First types who gave the entire US business strategy data to the Israeli negotiators resulting in very unreciprocal agreement, not changed to this day, or, e.g., how US business interests were undermined with Russia in return for Russia allowing immigration waves to Israel, or e.g., Big Oil did not favor Bush Jr’s attack on Iraq, but was silenced, or e.g., foreign military aid to Israel is the only US aid that allows 26% of said aid to directly subsidize Israel’s weapons industry in direct competition with US weapons industry–one result is US is #2 in drone industry, Israel is #1. And so on, including stark violations of US patents in both weapon and hi-tek industries.

  7. talknic
    talknic
    September 10, 2015, 3:24 pm

    Is there any difference in the essence of the following two statements?

    1) “Israel must end the prolonged occupation of Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem”

    2) “The occupation regime over Jerusalem must be erased from the pages of time

    Resolution 476 (1980) Adopted by the Security Council at its 2242nd meeting on 30 June 1980

    In full @ http://wp.me/pDB7k-W8

  8. hophmi
    hophmi
    September 10, 2015, 3:32 pm

    This is a great example of the basic dishonesty in the BDS movement that Norman Finkelstein has talked about. You’re splitting hairs. There is no difference between saying you want the “Zionist regime” not to exist and saying you don’t want Israel to exist. They’re functionally the same statement.

    • a blah chick
      a blah chick
      September 10, 2015, 4:27 pm

      No, it is not.

      You can have a state called Israel that is not Zionist and treats all its citizens the same. Zionism is the problem, not Jews.

      • amigo
        amigo
        September 10, 2015, 4:52 pm

        “You can have a state called Israel that is not Zionist and treats all its citizens the same. Zionism is the problem, not Jews. “ABC

        Quite so ABC but that basic thinking is a few levels above hopheads pay grade.

      • YoniFalic
        YoniFalic
        September 10, 2015, 6:41 pm

        I believe you don’t think in Hebrew. English Israeli and English Israelite both are translated into Hebrew as ישראלי (yisraeli). For a native Hebrew speaker an Arab can never be a true Israeli unless he is Jewish.

    • eljay
      eljay
      September 10, 2015, 5:24 pm

      || hophmi: This is a great example of the basic dishonesty in the BDS movement … There is no difference between saying you want the “Zionist regime” not to exist and saying you don’t want Israel to exist. … ||

      There is a world of difference between:
      – demanding an end to the existence of Israel as a religion-supremacist (and colonialist and expansionist) state; and
      – demanding an end to the existence of Israel as a state.

      You know this, but you’re a great example of the basic dishonesty – and hatefulness and immorality – that is Zio-supremacism.

    • Kris
      Kris
      September 10, 2015, 6:09 pm

      @hophmi: “There is no difference between saying you want the “Zionist regime” not to exist and saying you don’t want Israel to exist.”

      Fail. Saying you wanted the Third Reich not to exist was not the same as saying you didn’t want Germany to exist.

      Are you paid by the post, and that’s why you grind out silly stuff like this?

      • Marnie
        Marnie
        September 11, 2015, 5:17 am

        +10 Kris

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        September 11, 2015, 8:31 am

        That is indeed a good analogy. The nazis gave all Germans a bad name. The zionists are doing the same.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 11, 2015, 9:42 pm

        @k

        people like you keep interpreting what the supreme mullah has made abundantly clear. Not only in his press conf. the other day but on his web-site where he explains exactly (in something like 9 easy steps) how he believes the “zionist entity” should be destroyed.{and with a ‘democratic vote-no less-which is so completely rich coming from the one who murdered his people in the streets for protesting for a ‘democratic vote’}
        He does not qualify his “destruction” statements (like you do) with the asinine parsing of what the left-wing, Israeli-hating cheerleaders of the tyrant think is the difference (in Khameinis mind, no less! A supreme leader who needs an explanation-lol) between the Zionist Entity and Israel. And lets be extra ridiculous and pretend that Palestinian Arabs would keep the name Israel -which specifically refers to the Jewish nation-which they have been chanting for decades is illegitimate and that from the river to the sea-it doesn’t exist.

      • Kris
        Kris
        September 14, 2015, 11:26 am

        @DaBakr: “And lets be extra ridiculous and pretend that Palestinian Arabs would keep the name Israel -which specifically refers to the Jewish nation-which they have been chanting for decades is illegitimate and that from the river to the sea-it doesn’t exist.”

        Why should they keep the name “Israel?”

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        September 14, 2015, 11:33 am

        What Dr. Frankenstein (who was known to drink from the bottle) really said was: I’s Real! I”s Alive!

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 17, 2015, 8:08 pm

        @ks

        yes kris. brilliant deduction of what my point was in the first place. of course it has absolutely nothing to do with the Mullah saying anything about Israel being destroyed in 25 yrs-musty the Zionist entity. I stand in awe of your statement.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      September 10, 2015, 6:20 pm

      “There is no difference between saying you want the “Zionist regime” not to exist and saying you don’t want Israel to exist. They’re functionally the same statement.”

      So Israel cannot exist if it cannot be Zionist? Are you saying, ‘Hophmi” that Israel cannot exist unless it provides legal, financial and administrative advantages to Jews (or whoever the GOI considers Jewish, or not, for their purposes) and Israel cannot exist unless it provides segregation for Jews against Palestinians?
      And by-the-bye, “Hophmi” when you say “Israel” (as you so often do) just which area of land are you talking about?

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      September 11, 2015, 12:22 pm

      Very perceptive, hophmi. Well, that “Israel” is illegitimately in Palestine, not anywhere on its own territory so it’s got to go; the illegal immigrants’ situation will have to be decided by a general referendum of all Palestinians including those chased away by the Zionist invasion. It is all spelled out in the Iranian proposal. Nothing more logical. Only an enemy of legality could oppose that.

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      September 12, 2015, 12:26 am

      There is no difference between saying you want the “Zionist regime” not to exist and saying you don’t want Israel to exist.

      That’s like saying you want apartheid not to exist means that you want South Africa to no longer exist.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        September 12, 2015, 1:17 am

        No, Shingo, South Africa is a clear geographic concept, and its colonial Republic something amenable to a change in the constitution and the laws. The Apartheid dictatorship goes, South Africa remains. But Israel? Certainly a mystical concept for the profoundly religious, unrelated to Palestine. For the current, political meaning, to its own adherents and to its subjects it means the racial supremacist dictatorship. When the racial supremacist dictatorship, i.e. “Israel” goes, Palestine continues to be.

    • talknic
      talknic
      September 14, 2015, 11:42 am

      @ hophmi September 10, 2015, 3:32 pm

      “There is no difference between saying you want the “Zionist regime” not to exist and saying you don’t want Israel to exist. They’re functionally the same statement”

      Strange theory …The Bush/PNAC regime has gone. The US remains.

  9. jon s
    jon s
    September 10, 2015, 5:02 pm

    The slogan “Death to Israel ” is pretty straightforward.

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer
      September 10, 2015, 5:22 pm

      Death to Arabs even more so.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 10, 2015, 6:25 pm

        “Death to Arabs even more so.”

        Especially when Israel has shown no hesitation in doing just that. “Jon s” is amazing. He has a bedrock faith that bigotry will skew logic for everybody the same it does his.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        September 11, 2015, 8:32 am

        Good point. Saying it and doing nothing is one thing, saying it and doing worse is terrible.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 11, 2015, 9:53 pm

        and you people are always talking about Zionists drinking ‘cool-aid’. lol. comparing the relatively few Israelis who are caught on camera screaming ‘death to Arabs’ to the massive gatherings that have been continuous since the 90s and often required by the morality police and the hated basij is a pretty good joke. Its like saying the Westboro Baptist church people are representative of the American public on gay people and whatever else they spout.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        September 12, 2015, 12:27 am

        comparing the relatively few Israelis who are caught on camera screaming ‘death to Arabs’ to the massive gatherings that have been continuous since the 90s and often required by the morality police and the hated basij is a pretty good joke.

        What about the many thousands not caught Dabakr?

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 12, 2015, 2:41 am

        They exist in the shackles of your mind. They don’t exist in reality. They are an extremely small group of extremists who are shunned and disowned by the vast majority of the population and by the full weight of he government as well. There is.03 to compare.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        September 12, 2015, 12:41 pm

        @DaBakr
        “They don’t exist in reality. They are an extremely small group of extremists who are shunned and disowned by the vast majority of the population and by the full weight of he government as well. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/09/misrepresents-prediction-zionist/comment-page-1#comment-796303

        Oh they exist. There’s documented evidence and proof of that. It takes a special willful blindness to pretend otherwise.

        As to your other claims they enjoy the implicit support of the full weight of the government who assigns heavily armed idf terrorists to protect the vile racists as they rampage through Arab living areas. In fact, while not consisting of words, the act of protecting these threatening mobs is more explicit than implicit.

        In Iran mobs are forced to chant death to Israel. In Israel the mobs do so quite willingly. Iran threatens a state and political regime. A state it has no way to actual pose a threat to. In Israel the mobs want the death of person based on their race and ethnic character. And they do it, by vehicles, bullets and burning.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 13, 2015, 10:02 pm

        @og

        Instead of writing like a complete ignoramus and talking about some idiotic “documented evidence”- why don’t you come to Israel and see for yourself how ‘large’ these gatherings of Jewish extremist chanters are? Usually they number no more then a dozen-maybe 2 at most. -And usually outnumbered by the foreign press-or photographers working with anti-Zionist NGO’s. Elections are usually bigger crowds but still with small pockets of extremists. You really don’t have a clue about what you ‘believe’ is the truth do you? And likely-it doesn’t matter to you as your mind is filled up with propaganda and its already made up. You don’t need to see anything for yourself.
        * (and btw-I said the large crowds of Israeli extremists “don’t exist” not that any don’t. Get some new bi-specs old timer.)

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      September 10, 2015, 8:02 pm

      Sure, and why not “death to Israel”? It’s totally illegitimate, a product of invasion and conquest where it has no business to be –as a racial supremacist state, no less.
      That place is Palestine. Get the hell out, or, if the Palestinians, who are the lords of the land, including the descendants of 4-5% of them who were of the Jewish persuasion, agree to keep you on equal terms, then adapt and respect their conditions. Of course “death to Israel”, it is illegitimate and has no rights.

      • Marnie
        Marnie
        September 11, 2015, 5:18 am

        @ echinococcus

        Sounds great to me.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 11, 2015, 10:17 pm

        @e
        finally-an honest comment from the median fields of MW commentary. *

        *of course-it should be assumed that this statement has nothing to do with what some would call a ‘war footing’. you must mean ‘death to Israel’ in the most democratic of ways. or not , what i would bet on.

        its is folks like you that give Israelis the confidence to keep advancing, strengthening and building our nation without much regard for what the likes of people like you think. Not that we don’t know what you think but seriously-who is going to make your fantasy come true?
        -China, Russia, India, Brazil,? Why would they want a nation like Israel who they depend on for many of their technologies, medical advancements, water and solar management and others for the betterment of their lives destroyed and replaced with whatever group-Hamas, PA, PLO, ISIL, PLPF would be voted into power? *

        *and then promptly demand the world contribute billions more to stabilize it and continue paying billions to the uniquely eternal refugees that the Palestinian people enjoy above ANY group of refugees in the world. They alone enjoy an entire wing of the UN devoted solely to their care. But truths like this can not be spoken in left-wing circles without being cursed as a rabid racist or something worse. The majority of world powers from big to medium small do not think the way the US and EU left does.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 11:59 pm

        “its is folks like you that give Israelis the confidence to keep advancing, strengthening and building our nation without much regard for what the likes of people like you think. Not that we don’t know what you think…”

        “Dabakr” You da’ man! You are giving “Yonah” some real competition on this thread.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        September 12, 2015, 12:29 am

        Why would they want a nation like Israel who they depend on for many of their technologies, medical advancements, water and solar management and others for the betterment of their lives destroyed and replaced with whatever group-Hamas, PA, PLO, ISIL, PLPF would be voted into power?

        What makes you think they “depend” on their technologies:? After all, most of the so called technologies are stolen from the US anyway.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        September 12, 2015, 1:21 am

        What makes Abu Bakr believe that the world depends on Zionist genius for its survival?
        You don’t seem well-acquainted with the Zionists. Does “Jonestown” ring a bell?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        September 12, 2015, 2:16 am

        Abu Bakr seems to be especially ignorant, even with all due allowance for his Zionist upbringing and environment. Look what he writes:

        *of course-it should be assumed that this statement has nothing to do with what some would call a ‘war footing’. you must mean ‘death to Israel’ in the most democratic of ways. or not , what i would bet on.

        You mean they don’t tell you in Zionastia that the Zionist entity started all-out war against the Palestinian population, both inside and outside the meaningless partition proposal line, in November 1947?
        That, even though separate peace agreements and armistices were concluded with individual participating states who tried in vain to rescue the Palestinian population, there never was a truce or a peace agreed by general referendum of all Palestinians,
        So that the Zionist entity keeps knowingly exposing the lives and security of the illegal invaders invited as Herrenvolk “citizens” with official “Jewish” nationality by maintaining a state of war against an entire population,
        That the population so put at risk by the Zionist government includes the whole territory, i.e. the pre-1947 settlements, the 1948 occupation, the Jerusalem corpus separatum and the so-called late settlers in the post-1967 occupied areas,
        That going anywhere on the entire territory of Palestine is therefore dangerous for all, the sole responsible being the Zionist government?
        Nobody tells you anything, eh?
        We’ll add the continual international terrorism practiced in different neighboring and far-away lands, each one of them an act of war,
        then all the wars of aggression, including of course the 67 and 73 wars, but also the multiple wars against the Lebanon, that claimed tens of thousands of lives and kept a brutal military occupation for many years, the annexation of the Golan, the continuous interventions in the Syrian(-American) “civil” war.

        And Mr Abu Bakr talking about “war footing”. I’m loving it! What other footing or footage would you suggest? I’m all ears, not having ever heard a single concession by a single Zionist in my 72 years.

        Of course the solution will come by general war, as long as the Zionists are Zionists, i.e. crazy fanatics. Look at all the war of liberation it took to free even Algeria –where there wasn’t any such cult craziness, only colonial interest.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 12, 2015, 2:44 am

        @sh

        What makes me think?.

        Maybe it’s the billion dollar contracts those nations are paying for technology they can’t get anywhere else you fool. I think the US might be a little miffed if all the drug, science, watercooler management was all ” stolen”. a little paranoid I suppose?

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 13, 2015, 10:08 pm

        @shg

        shg-your truly an idiot if you think the advancements in water technology and solar tech, as well as the medical advancement in surgery and drugs is “stolen”. what a green greedy and grim mind you must have. the robotic ‘legs’ that will soon be allowing 100s and then hopefully 1000s of paraplegics to walk again was ‘stolen’. Waze- stolen. I could go on….for pages but I can tell you are already so steamed that your desperately trying to find some ‘link’-most likely from ‘Stormfront about how all Israeli tech is ‘stolen’ . This was how AH and his ‘party’ convinced German/european christians to ‘hate’ jews. Say they ‘stole’ everything they built. No different then you stating that everything positive that Israel ahas accomplished and shared with the world was ‘stolen’ Same technique. Different year. (5776)

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        September 13, 2015, 11:00 pm

        @dabakr

        What advances in medical drugs?

        Teva is a major company but is a generic ripoff manufacturer. With a single, almost expired, patent. Water desalinization patents and the major users are the US.

        Israeli advancements are mostly fiction like your posts.

  10. Boomer
    Boomer
    September 10, 2015, 5:24 pm

    I just heard NPR interview the author of the NYT piece. If one had any hope that it would be clarified by the discussion on NPR, one would be disappointed.

    • Citizen
      Citizen
      September 11, 2015, 4:26 am

      Reminds me Gwen I recently got in hot water for her tweet “Take That, Bibi.” Re Iran Deal. So now, that regular on national public TV is an “anti’Semite.”

  11. wondering jew
    wondering jew
    September 10, 2015, 6:59 pm

    James North- Do you think Khameini’s vision of the post Zionist future is similar to your vision of the post Zionist future of democratic state or states? I don’t think so. Unless you are extremely naive regarding Khameini or very cynical in your own description, I really don’t think you and Khameini have similar futures in mind.

    • James North
      James North
      September 10, 2015, 7:17 pm

      Yonah: How much clearer can I be? I said I want to see Khamenei and his “theocratic regime” ended by an Iranian mass democratic movement.

      • inbound39
        inbound39
        September 10, 2015, 7:46 pm

        We can wish for many things and generally those things we wish or pray for arrive in a totally different package to that which we wanted yet it still fulfills our basic desire….just built differently to what we envisaged. Personally I have no problem with the Iranian Regime. They are not stealing land or occupying anyones territory and pillaging their resources. The Iranian Regime has protected their people and nation from pressure from outside sources and has,despite serious hurdles built a defensive curtain that is more than respected by America and Israel and the rest of the World. Any attack against Iran would incur losses on the attacker that he would not be prepared to suffer. Respect your enemies is my philosophy and never under estimate them nor discount them. No-one in this world is perfect which is why we generally all move toward it. When you make an agreement though you need to keep it…….that is simply good housekeeping given trust is important. Israel has never kept any agreement.

      • inbound39
        inbound39
        September 10, 2015, 7:52 pm

        Also any gripe about Iran financing Hezbollah and indirectly financing Hezbollah in Syria falls on its face….Syria and Lebanon are under threat from U.S. and Israel Special Relationship.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 10, 2015, 9:25 pm

        Ironically, that democratic movement that will overthrow the mullahs, larjanis, IRG and the hated basij and morality police is very likely to have little( or at least a lot less) ill will towards Israel and resume normal relations as they existed before the tyrannical mullah regime stole power. Iran has no hardwired hatred of Israel or a Jewish nation. This is an obsession with the fanatical Islamic tyrants

      • Kris
        Kris
        September 11, 2015, 1:00 am

        DaBakr, why would any Iranian democratic movement want to return to “normal relations” with Israel?

        The Iranian regime that had “normal relations” with Israel was that of the dictator Mohammad Reza Shah, who, with the help of the CIA, set up the dreaded SAVAK secret police, who specialized in torture and murder.

        In fact SAVAK was like the Gestapo, but that did not bother Israeli Jews; naturally Israel had “normal relations” with the brutal regime of the Shah, they had a lot in common.

        In the 1960s, the Mossad took over from the CIA, “training SAVAK personnel and carrying out a broad variety of joint operations with SAVAK.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad#Iran

        “Joint operations” means that Mossad helped SAVAK torture and kill Iranian citizens.

        More recently, the Mossad is strongly suspected of assassinating scientists and others in Iran.

        I’m guessing that the Iranians have a long memory.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        September 12, 2015, 12:31 am

        Ironically, that democratic movement that will overthrow the mullahs, larjanis, IRG and the hated basij and morality police is very likely to have little( or at least a lot less) ill will towards Israel and resume normal relations as they existed before the tyrannical mullah regime stole power

        Really? So do you believe a new regime in Iran would be pro Zionists, pro apartheid, pro mass murder, pro ethnic cleansing, pro occupation, pro human rights abuses?

        The idea that such a regime would succeed the Mullahs is indeed ironic.

    • zaid
      zaid
      September 10, 2015, 10:44 pm

      Dabakr

      yeah right…..you remind me of dick cheney’s ” they will welcome us ”

      Iranians are the ones who chose this regime.
      and they are the ones that overthrow the previous.

      • Citizen
        Citizen
        September 11, 2015, 4:29 am

        Cheney was on TV the other day saying “they did welcome us.”

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 11, 2015, 10:44 pm

        @k

        Why, you ask? Because recent polling of Iranian public opinion (at least the middle to upper class public-afaik) shows that of the people who experienced the Shah and the mullahs their opinions are that the mullahs are either ‘just as bad’ or ‘worse’ then the shah. But we know that while certain freedoms do exist in current Iran that political opposition is tightly controlled as is internet and people in a position to change things are in constant danger of arrest, harassment , and worse.

        In fact- even if the shah was ‘hated; there is no Iranian ‘hatred’ of any of the dozens of other nations that enjoyed close relations with Iran under the Pavlavi’s. Other then the ignorant masses of religiously intolerant- (which exist in most nations) who have benefited by the regime due to a need for ‘morality’ police and a brutal Basij (which makes your US police look like sissy’s)
        what makes you think the middle and upper classes don’t hate the regime more then the Shah? Just because most Iranians naturally want the right to unfettered nuclear energy and relief from sanctions it doesn’t mean the regime is not hated.

        another reason? As for the BDSholes who don’t understand why most Palestinians in Israel; and the WB (even some in Gaza) stock many Israeli items in their stores (more recently-the PA had to start enforcing the boycott so as not to be embarrassed over and over again) Now there is just a more robust smuggling business for Israeli goods. My point? Don’t think that millions of Iranians released from their mullahs shackles wouldn’t clamour for products-if not directly from Israel-for products chock full of Israeli technology. (which they probably already enjoy-at least the Mullahs do in their ‘supreme’ hypocrisy)

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        September 11, 2015, 10:52 pm

        Cite the recent polling, dude.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 11, 2015, 10:47 pm

        @z

        they DID welcome US troops. It was well reported. And one doesn’t have to admire Cheney to say so. Then the stupidity of the plan-or lack there of -went into place and the US stayed when it should have left.

        While there is little to dispute that the Iraq war turned into a money pit and a debacle there is good evidence that had the ‘planners’ been either- less greedy -more honest- had they been more genuine about what they claimed was the ‘goal’ of liberating Iraq it might have played out different. But there absolutely was a time when Iraqis -mostly Shi’a -or- who weren’t Baathists were welcoming US troops.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 11:16 pm

        “they DID welcome US troops. It was well reported. “

        All that money! Millions, to fix that stupid Bertha TBM. What a waste. Just put Dabakr in the access pit and point him north.

      • annie
        annie
        September 11, 2015, 11:22 pm

        maybe he meant ‘it was WELL reported, they welcomed US troops’.

        uh huh. even i know it was well reported, even before they showed up!

      • Kris
        Kris
        September 11, 2015, 11:55 pm

        @DaBakr

        Could you provide a link to your info about “recent polling of Iranian public opinion,” and a link to the evidence that Iranians don’t hate Israel for Mossad’s role in facilitating the crimes of the Shah’s dreaded secret police, SAVAK?

        SAVAK was like the Gestapo, and most Jews are still angry about Germany’s crimes against them. SAVAK tortured and killed Iranians from 1953 to 1970, much of that time with the active participation of Mossad. And more recently, Mossad has been killing Iranian scientists. Yet the Iranians have no hard feelings against Israel? Are the Iranians an unusually forgiving people?

        If you have citations for your assertions, please share them.

      • talknic
        talknic
        September 12, 2015, 5:50 am

        DaBakr “they DID welcome US troops. It was well reported”

        It was well reported that SOME of ‘they’ did. It was also well reported that some of ‘they’ didn’t, which bore some sadly strange fruit.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 13, 2015, 10:22 pm

        @tk

        yes-what you say is true.

        As a broad generalization: the Shi’a majority who had been severely oppressed by Saddaam and Baathists welcomed US for short period in beginning
        And Baathists as well as Sunnis who were treated preferentially (not all were) were not happy the US forces showed up.

        The simple point is-some-even many Iraqis welcomed US troops for a while until the US blew any chance of extending their welcome by firing the entire Iraqi army. Probably the stupidest move the US could have made. From this point things spiraled downwards-but not before billions in American cash was spread, stolen and stashed in so many different pockets from US troops, tribal leaders, flunky GOP interns given HUGE titles, etc. All of this and worse happened but it is STILL true that Iraqis welcomed US troops at first. Maybe Cheney is just using the same manipulative tricks anti-Zionist use to exaggerate anti-Israeli reports.

        as for ‘polling data’. i’d rather not link as the poll i have read is not been approved for publication. but there are many others that are. and you MW people must realize there are 1000s of Iranians living in Israel and many are very well connected to the Iranian upper and merchant classes (not just Jews). This information is not exactly secret. perhaps you commenters are relying too much on PressTV polling-or left-wing media (like Guardian) data. Big mistake. You want to know what ‘real’ iranians think (not the IRG, or gov’t employees) you have to have connections. Iranians are not so stupid as to answer just anybody who asks them something on the street with the truth and I hope the commenters here are not so stupid either. Find your own polling. Polls are pretty subjective-so you can find a poll showing pretty much anything one wants by asking the questions the right way.

      • zaid
        zaid
        September 13, 2015, 10:47 pm

        so you dont have a poll …….good……..next time spare us.

  12. Bandolero
    Bandolero
    September 10, 2015, 8:25 pm

    James North

    The terms “Israel” and “zionist regime” are used as synonyms by Ayatollah Khamenei.

    Just read his official English twitter channel to see this.

    Why should & how can #Israel be eliminated? Ayatollah Khamenei’s answer to 9 key questions. #HandsOffAlAqsa

    9 key questions about the elimination of Israel

    1. Why should the Zionist regime be eliminated? Ayatollah Khamenei’s response: During it’s 66 years of life so far, the fake Zionist regime has tried to realize its goals by means of infanticide, homicide, violence and iron fist while boasts about it blatantly.

    2. What does elimination of Israel mean in the viewpoint of Imam Khomeini? Ayatollah Khamenei’s response: The only means of bringing Israeli crimes to an end is the elimination of this regime. And of course the elimination of Israel does not mean the massacre of the jewish people in this region. The Islamic Republic has proposed a practical & logical mechanism for this to international communities.

    3. What is the proper way of eliminating Israel? Ayatollah Khamenei’s response: All the original people of Palestine including Muslims, Christians and Jews wherever they are, whether inside Palestine, in refugee camps in other countries or just anywhere alse, take part in a public and organized referendum. Naturally the Jewish immigrants who have been persuaded into emigration to Palestine do not have the right to take part in this referendum.

    4. What happened to the non-Palestinian emigrants? Ayatollah Khamenei’s response: The ensuing government, which comes into power after a referendum among the original Palestinians, once settled will decide whether the non-Palestian emigrants who have immigrated to this country over the past years can continue living in Palestine or should return to their home countries.

    5. How will the proposed referendum succeed? Ayatollah Khamenei’s response: This is a fair and logical plan that can be properly understood by global public opinion and can enjoy the supports of the independent nations and governemnts. Certainly we do not expect the usurper Zionists to easily surrender to this proposal and this is where the role of governments, nations and organisation of resistance is shaped and defined.

    6. Until a referendum is held, how should Israel be confronted? Ayatollah Khamenei’s response: Up until the day when this homicidal and infanticidal regime is eliminated through a referendum, powerful confrontation and resolute and armed resistance is the cure of this ruinous regime. The only means of confronting a regime which commits crimes beyond one’s thought and imagination is a resolute and armed confrontation.

    7. What is the most urgent action to take for militarily confront israel? Ayatollah Khamenei’s response: The West Bank should be armed like Gaza and those who are interested in Palestine’s destiny should take action to arm the people of the West Bank so that the sorrows and grieves of the Palestinian people will reduce in the light of their powerful hands and the weakness of the Zionist enemy.

    8. What solutions are not acceptable? Ayatollah Khamenei’s response: We recommend neither a classical war by the army of Muslim countries nor to throw migrated jews at sea and certainly not an arbitration by UN or other international organizsations.

    9. Why do we oppose compromise proposals? Ayatollah Khamenei’s response: That the rockets of Gaza have led to the crimes of Israel is a wrong conclusion. In the west Bank, people’s only weapons is stones and there are not many types of weaponry. But this regime massacres and humiliates people there and destroys their houses and farms. The fact that Yasser Arafat was poisoned and killed by Israel while he had the most cooperation with the Zionists proves that in the viewpoint of Israel, “peace” is simply a trick for more crimes and occupation.

    Source: @khamenei_ir 12:44 AM – 9 Nov 2014

    https://twitter.com/khamenei_ir/status/531366667377717248

    Of course, this is Khamenei’s and Iran’s position, but there is ample room for compromise. For exmaple, Iran’s position is also to support whatever conflict solution the Palestinian people agress to in a fair referendum, and in this way, Iran also supports the Arab peace initiative of 2002. Also, Hssan Nasrallah is off the opinion, as he has said eg in an interview with Julian Assange on RT, that in all of occupied Palestine (ie Palestine occupied 1948 + Palestine occupied 1967) should be built one democratic state for all the people there, which doesn’t mean to send jewish immigrants into Palestine back home as Ali Khamanei’s position is close to.

  13. zaid
    zaid
    September 10, 2015, 9:55 pm

    Ayatollah Khaman’ei is the most misquoted human in modern history.

    • Kay24
      Kay24
      September 11, 2015, 8:36 am

      They are no saints, but many of the top officials in Iran (and other similar nations belonging to the axis of evil ) do get misquoted in the american media, all for selling neocon/zionist propaganda. While on the other hand racist and violent threats from Israeli leaders are never referred to. The usual double standards.

  14. jeffh1
    jeffh1
    September 11, 2015, 12:24 am

    Anti Zionist = anti Semitic. So sayeth none other than the Rev Martin Luther King Jr. “Zionist Regime” equals “Israel”. Anti Israel is all about hatred of Jews. How such a small country can stir up so much controversy is beyond me. The Palestinians already have a state. It’s called Jordan. Read your history and stop picking on Jews. Hopefully Mondoweiss will have an epiphany within the next 25 days.

    • Kay24
      Kay24
      September 11, 2015, 8:39 am

      ATTENTION!

      Looks like the new recruits have graduated, and given their assignments.

      Same ole talking points though.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr
        September 11, 2015, 11:13 pm

        @k

        yes, they are old but they are solid and easily verifiable. and there are only 2 – 3 highly dubious ‘scholars’ from Israel (not counting the several more even-handed historians not blinded by polemics) that have taken it upon themselves to dispute every fact they can manage. of course in the MW circles these 2-3 persons get the utmost respect while the other 100s of modern and archaic scholars are completely discounted as ‘dupes’ or scoundrels. Even Bernard Lewis is regarded as a racist scourge while E. Said is given the status of sainthood.
        Proving? It takes all kinds. But the left has tolerance for nobody except those that tout the far-left line of blaming the ‘west;, EU, US and Israel for every debacle thats occurred since ww2. Even ‘orientalist’ was turned into a dirty racist word by Said when it was simply the counter to Occidentalism. The muslim world has its fair share of marauding, contesting and colonizing -it just happened earlier then the peak of the ‘west’

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 11:19 pm

        “Even Bernard Lewis is regarded as a racist scourge…

        Can you fly to Seattle, ready to dig like this?-

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 11:33 pm

        “yes, they are old but they are solid and easily verifiable.”

        Because God don’t tell no lies. It’s all there in the Holy Books, for those who care to see it!

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 11:37 pm

        ” Even ‘orientalist’ was turned into a dirty racist word by Said when it was simply the counter to Occidentalism.”

        Truly, Dabakr, I am in awe. That one is worthy of “Yonah Fredman”.

      • talknic
        talknic
        September 12, 2015, 1:25 am

        DaBakr “The muslim world has its fair share of marauding, contesting and colonizing -it just happened earlier then the peak of the ‘west’”

        So that makes it OK? Strange, Iraq tried it on Kuwait and was swiftly booted under the laws and UN Charter adopted to stop exactly what Israel is still doing after having been given hundreds of opportunities via UNSC resolutions reminding Israel of its obligations under the binding laws those resolutions reaffirm and emphasize.

        No other state on the planet has been afforded so many missed opportunities NOT to be a rogue state.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        September 12, 2015, 6:40 am

        DBKR simply justifies the occupation, and illegal land grabs. That argument will not fly. This brutal occupation has gone on for more than 60 years, and no true “democracy” in the ME will resort to such criminal acts, be condemned for doing so by the international community, keep lying to keep this occupation going, and shamelessly keep building more illegal settlements.
        These are characteristics of a rogue nation out of control. No other democratic nation today has been responsible for such an outrage. Israel keep getting caught lying again and again, broken international laws again and again. Not cool for the “only democracy in the ME”.

    • Marnie
      Marnie
      September 11, 2015, 9:37 am

      “Hopefully Mondoweiss will have an epiphany within the next 25 days.” That epiphany happened in 2006 I believe, with the birth of this site. Read your history, bossypants.

      You’re the one that needs to see the light. Are you related to JeffB ? Martin Luther King was only human and made his share of mistakes too. Pretty sure he was pressured by someone, especially since he was coming down so hard against the war on Vietnam. You know how the zionists love to pressure folks. Read current history and stop picking all of the non-Jewish world.

      • Kay24
        Kay24
        September 12, 2015, 6:43 am

        From the comment, it seems the new has ba rats have been sent to MDW but with the same talking points and lame reasoning. Only DBKR seems to be impressed.

    • eljay
      eljay
      September 11, 2015, 9:58 am

      || jeffh1 @ September 11, 2015, 12:24 am ||

      Once again, a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist:
      – anti-Semitically conflates Israel with all Jews and all Jews with Israel (perhaps he also anti-Semitically believes, as JeffB does, that all Jews are responsible for the actions of some Jews);
      – disregards the fact that 20% of Israelis aren’t even Jewish (such bigotry!); and
      – pretends that Israel has not been stealing, occupying and colonizing land outside of its / Partition borders and committing (war) crimes for almost 70 years and with impunity.

    • talknic
      talknic
      September 11, 2015, 12:23 pm

      @ jeffh1 September 11, 2015, 12:24 am

      ” “Zionist Regime” equals “Israel” “

      Strange, the Zionist regime was around long before the State of Israel

      ” Anti Israel is all about hatred of Jews”

      Most Jews don’t live in Israel..

      ” How such a small country can stir up so much controversy is beyond me.”

      It’s difficult I know, but Israel has managed to be in breach of the UN Charter and International Law for most of its short life

      ” The Palestinians already have a state. It’s called Jordan”

      Only the Palestinians who lived in the area that became Jordan have a right to automatic full citizenship to Jordan. Those who didn’t live in the area did not.

      Ziopoop has a distinctive ans easily recognizable smell where ever you post it. Best wipe your feet before you put them in your mouth

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      September 11, 2015, 1:47 pm

      “How such a small country can stir up so much controversy is beyond me.”

      Sheesh, I know what you mean, brother (or sister as the case may be). I mean, it’s not as if Israel had an illegal, stolen, nuclear arsenal, and means to deliver nuclear bombs to most of the world, without ever declaring their protocols, signing the NPT. All while violating International Law, and being in breach of their UN Charter. If they did stuff like that they could justifiably stir up a lot of controversy.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      September 11, 2015, 7:35 pm

      “The Palestinians already have a state. It’s called Jordan.”

      Do you mean the Jordan that included the West Bank? If so, Israel should give that bit back.

      But states are a secondary issue. The main issue is justice for the Palestinians, for those who were driven out of their homes and farms, for those being slaughtered in Gaza and oppressed in the West Bank, and for those who are second class citizens in Israel.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        September 12, 2015, 6:37 am

        If the reference is not to the West Bank but only to Jordan beyond the river the remark is morally scandalous, since I don’t grant someone due and proper rights by saying that (s)he can have some rights somewhere but only on condition of the violation of other rights by me, as when I seize hearth and home.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        September 12, 2015, 7:02 am

        “the remark is morally scandalous”

        What Zionist remarks aren’t?

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      September 12, 2015, 12:33 am

      Anti Zionist = anti Semitic. So sayeth none other than the Rev Martin Luther King Jr. –

      In a speech that was never made.

      • wondering jew
        wondering jew
        September 12, 2015, 1:37 am

        Shingo- There have been periods of times and milieus when the word Zionism was used to persecute Jews totally unrelated to Jewish nationalist movement centering on Palestine in the Middle East. Two of those periods- late 1940’s and early 1950’s Eastern Europe. Middle 1960’s, Stokely Carmichael and others in the anti Jewish black civil rights movement. (kwame toure). Even if there are those who confuse the two words today for the purpose of condemning anti Zionists as anti semites, in fact there were times when the word Zionist was just a code word for Jew.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        September 12, 2015, 6:50 am

        I agree subject to correction that this – the explicit equation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism -.was a step that MLK never took, at least not in writing or in a major speech. It would perhaps have led to the open split with Carmichael and the Young Militants which he was trying to avoid. But how he could have avoided it for ever under increasingly searching questions I don’t know. His correspondence in September 67 after the near-disastrous Conference of New Politics nailed his colours to the Z mast. The atmosphere of liberal Niebuhrian Protestantism was drawing him in that direction too.

      • Shingo
        Shingo
        September 12, 2015, 5:51 pm

        There have been periods of times and milieus when the word Zionism was used to persecute Jews totally unrelated to Jewish nationalist movement centering on Palestine in the Middle East.

        Maybe but so what? The pursuit of democracy and human rights is often used to bomb countries. Every time Israel gets criticized for bombing Gaza, it argues that it is in the only democracy in the ME< as though that is supposed to give legitimacy to mass murder, land theft and ethnic cleansing.

        The fact is that Zionism is a racist supremacist ideology and as such, nothing but human suffering and injustice can come of it

    • pjdude
      pjdude
      September 12, 2015, 4:02 pm

      that tired old lie? no jordan is not the palestinian state. only serverely uneducated people make that claim. well those and supporters of western imperialism. jordan is the state for jordinians. palestine is the state for palestinians which zionists jews stole through warfare and terrorism.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976
        September 12, 2015, 4:48 pm

        Why this hateful Nakba justification, surely a worse thing than Nakba denial, is regarded as within the rules of this discussion I cannot easily comprehend. Some of us can bring ourselves to bandy words with these people but I find that quite hard.

  15. Palikari
    Palikari
    September 11, 2015, 9:48 am

    This is the most stupid article I’ve ever read on Mondoweiss.

    Congrats!

    • Shingo
      Shingo
      September 12, 2015, 12:35 am

      Coming from one of the most stupid commenters to contribute to Mondoweiss, that is a compliment.

  16. talknic
    talknic
    September 11, 2015, 12:15 pm

    @ Palikari “This is the most stupid article I’ve ever read on Mondoweis”

    You should read your comments

  17. dgfincham
    dgfincham
    September 11, 2015, 12:18 pm

    Khamenei’s policy is that Palestinian resistance should be supported, and international pressure applied, leading to a return of the refugees and the re-unification of Palestine as a single state. As a result, Israel would disappear as a separate political entity, and there would be no Jewish state. This is also the policy of the Palestinian and other ‘one-staters’ such as Ali Abunimah and Ramzy Baroud (see electronicintifada.net and palestinechronicle.com).

    These people are living in a dreamworld. Once the State of Israel had been recognized by the United States and the Soviet Union in 1948 there was no going back. There was no progress in resolving the conflict until 1988 when Yasser Arafat decided to accept the reality of the existence of Israel and declare the State of Palestine. Arafat blundered in accepting the Oslo Accord, because Israel made no reciprocal commitment to the two-state solution. Twenty -two years have been wasted on a fruitless and invalid process.

    It is now rumored that Abbas is about to annul the Accords and declare Palestine a ‘State under occupation’ [http://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-set-to-annul-oslo-accords-declare-palestine-a-state-under-occupation/].

    I hope he does, because it will focus minds on the real problem, the occupation. The final status issues can only be solved, in my view, after Palestine has gained its independence and is able to negotiate as an equal, a full Member State of the UN.

    There may eventually be a single state, but that can only come about as a voluntary union or federation between Israel and Palestine, in which each retains its essential character as a Jewish or Arab nation respectively.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      September 11, 2015, 12:56 pm

      “There may eventually be a single state, but that can only come about as a voluntary union or federation between Israel and Palestine, in which each retains its essential character as a Jewish or Arab nation respectively.”

      Israel’s “essential character” as a Jewish nation? Gosh, how simple the problem becomes when you accept the Zionists at their own valuation, and accept the Zionists valuation of the Palestinians, as an “Arab nation”. Wow!

      Or do you (I gotta ask, sorry) just have a pretty low opinion of Jews, and can accept Israel as having an “essential” Jewish character? I mean, that’s alright with me, no skin off my nose, if that’s the way you feel.

      “Once the State of Israel had been recognized by the United States and the Soviet Union in 1948 there was no going back.”

      The what? Oh, now I remember, “the Soviet Union”! Of course, I remember! Once they started that “Soviet Union” thing in Russia, “there was no going back”!

      • dgfincham
        dgfincham
        September 11, 2015, 5:58 pm

        Mooser: the human race has divided itself into nations, with different languages, different governing systems, different religions, different myths, different customs, different architecture, different music, different art, different food, etc.That is a fact. It is also a fact that individuals value their national identities.

        The only peaceful solution to the Israel-Palestine problem is one which would be acceptable to both peoples, and that is one that allows them to preserve those identities. The example I always give is that of the relationship between England and Scotland. The Union has been successful because the two nations have preserved their national identities, not only in the cultural sense, but also in terms of national institutions. They have different legal systems, different established churches, national football teams playing in international competitions, and in modern times Scotland has had its own parliament and a great deal of autonomy in local governance. I suggest this sort of arrangement would be a good model for Israel and Palestine to follow.

        Israel declares itself to be a Jewish state, and its official religion is Orthodox Judaism. Palestine declares itself as an Arab state, and its official religion is Islam. Islamic Sharia is a main source of legislation.

        Can you really think that either of these peoples would vote in a referendum for a single homogeneous secular state as proposed by Abunimah?

        I cannot understand why you think that my recognition that Israeli Jews have a national identity means that I have a low opinion of Jews.

        I did not appreciate your attempted joke about the Soviet Union. I was making an important point. Once the State of Israel was recognized by the two superpowers, there was no possibility that Israel could be made to disappear, as Khamenei still vainly hopes.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 6:05 pm

        “Once the State of Israel was recognized by the two superpowers, there was no possibility that Israel could be made to disappear,”

        You might be right, it’s already outlasted one of the superpowers.

        So BTW, what does this “Jewish character” that Israel’s got consist of? The fact that they say they have it?

        “Israel declares itself to be a Jewish state, and its official religion is Orthodox Judaism.”

        Gosh, no harm in that, I guess. Sounds very Jewish. And why shouldn’t Israel be set up for the advantage of a tiny minority of Jews? I guess the rest of us just have to go along with it cause they have a lock on the Jewish character. For G-d’s sake, they can’t even accept the majority of Jews and they are going to accept the Palestinians? Okay.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 6:14 pm

        “Mooser: the human race has divided itself into nations, with different languages, different governing systems, different religions, different myths, different customs, different architecture, different music, different art, different food, etc.That is a fact.”

        Okay, what is the “Jewish language”?
        What is the Jewish “governing system”?
        What is the Jewish religion?
        What are “Jewish customs,…architecture, food” and all the rest of it? What ever Israel says they are?
        I mean, if these are the things which necessitate Zionism, they better be pretty clear, and easily observable to all. And pretty goddam consistent. And worth killing over.

        And why do these things either entitle or necessitate us (and the smallest minority of us the Orthodox) living and ruling in an ethno-centric apartheid enclave?

        But, I am being silly. If you are willing to accept Zionism and Israel at it’s own valuation, and being some kind of essential expression of the Jewish character, we are talking at cross purposes, and so I apologize.

      • Bandolero
        Bandolero
        September 11, 2015, 6:38 pm

        David Gerald Fincham

        Over the time of history different regimes came and went in different parts of the world, and Jerusalem and the land surrounding Jerusalem is no exception to this. Kingdoms came and went, and the Soviet Union came and went, too. The current colonial apartheid regime over Jerusalem and the land surrounding Jerusalem is fully dependent on Western European and Northern American support. I do think, when Western Europeans and Northern Americans decide that their support of a racist zionist regime in Western Asia is too expensive for them to maintain, in moral, political, financial or military terms, then that apartheid regime over Jerusalem and the land surrounding Jerusalem will either have to fundamentally change it’s character and become an integrated part of it’s regional environment, or it will vanish from the pages of history earlier or later.

        The Zionist regime can’t build the economy and weapons it needs to maintain it’s rule on it’s own because it need’s to import most of it’s military and industrial goods to maintain it’s colonial rule. And I see no chance that the bunch of anti-arab racists ruling over Jerusalem will ever become an integrated part of it’s regional arab environment, so I think the Zionist regime will vanish from the pages of history rather sooner than later. When the majority of the people in Western Europe and Northern Africa feel it’s time to defer the colonial apartheid regime’s fifth column in their home countries and to stop supporting racism and endless Zionist wars a simple UN sanctioned boycott of military sales to Israel will bring the racist Zionist regime over Jerusalem down and make place for a government that will make the holy land an integrated part of it’s regional arab environment again.

      • straightline
        straightline
        September 11, 2015, 7:39 pm

        @DGF: I stopped reading when I got to the bit about Scotland and England being a successful union.

        http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-poll-shows-that-more-scots-would-vote-yes-than-at-last-years-referendum-10274406.html

        It’s always good to base your arguments on facts I find.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 8:34 pm

        ” the human race has divided itself….”

        That’s nice to know, I was worried that force was involved somehow.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 11:26 pm

        ” You’re splitting hairs. There is no difference between saying you want the “Zionist regime” not to exist and saying you don’t want Israel to exist. They’re functionally the same statement.” “Hophmi” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/09/misrepresents-prediction-zionist/comment-page-1#comment-796205

        After all, there’s no point us arguing or you explaining to me how mankind has “divided itself” until you convince Hophmi. And his herd of ilk.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 12, 2015, 12:44 pm

        “You care for the other at the expense of your own. This is a sin of self righteousness.”
        Dabakr

        “Mooser: the human race has divided itself into nations, with different languages, different governing systems, different religions, different myths, different customs, different architecture, different music, different art, different food, etc.That is a fact. It is also a fact that individuals value their national identities.” Dr. Fincham

        You know, you guys could work together very easily.

    • diasp0ra
      diasp0ra
      September 11, 2015, 6:33 pm

      I’m sorry but I can’t agree to this.

      Israel is not a state like England, Israel is a state that was carved out of our corpses not a few decades ago. This makes comparisons to any situation that is not a specific kind of settler colonialism moot.

      The occupation is not the real problem. The occupation is a mere symptom. People HAVE been focusing on the occupation for 20 years, it’s called the Oslo accords, that’s why we’re in such a miserable situation. The 1967 borders blinders have blinded people to the actual root cause of the “conflict”. Focusing on the occupation removes refugees from the picture, and removes ethnic cleansing and normalizes Israel.

      There can be no peace without justice, and there can be no justice within the 1967 borders framework, it’s really as simple as that. Palestine will never be a full equal member of the UN based on negotiations from its bantustans.

      Also, the positions of both peoples are not equally valid. Your second post seems to imply that expansionist supremacist Israelis need to find it acceptable that we should breathe. When has an oppressor ever voluntarily given up power over the oppressed?

      It’s like saying slavery should be ended by an accord which is acceptable to both sides. Excuse me? How can you even compare the colonizer to the colonized? How can you even pretend that both sides have even remotely similar validity in their “concerns”?

      Btw, people told Mandela repeatedly that he was a utopian and that what he set out to do was impossible. His famous quote is “It always seems impossible until it’s done”.

      • just
        just
        September 11, 2015, 7:28 pm

        A most excellent and true comment in its entirety, diasp0ra.

        Many, many thanks for it.

        “… Israel is a state that was carved out of our corpses not a few decades ago.”

        +100.

      • just
        just
        September 11, 2015, 7:57 pm

        Speaking of England and the benighted Cameron:

        “Corbyn’s Victory Could Make Israel a Partisan Issue in British Politics

        The Labour politician’s almost-certain capturing of the party leadership raises the prospect of BDS groups going mainstream.

        One of the last stops on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s short trip to London was the British Library’s archives, where Thursday evening he was allowed a private viewing of the Balfour Declaration. The Israeli Embassy wisely left that part of the visit off the official itinerary handed out to the media.

        The letter sent by Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour in 1917, promising the British Empire’s support for “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people,” has long been a red rag to the Palestinians and the British anti-Israel movement. They view it as a case of Britain giving something that wasn’t its to give to people who had no right to receive it.

        If the organizers of a demonstration against Netanyahu’s visit on Wednesday, which attracted about a thousand protesters and a smaller number of counterdemonstrators, had gotten wind of the Balfour viewing, they probably would have besieged the British Library, paralyzing rush-hour traffic on the main Kings Cross artery.

        While Netanyahu was poring over the declaration and other rare books and documents, not far away, the final rally of Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Party leadership campaign was taking place. Corbyn, a veteran of Labour’s far-left fringe, has emerged as the unlikely frontrunner, outstripping the other three candidates and predicted to win Saturday when the new leader is announced. …”

        read more: http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.675690

        “They view it as a case of Britain giving something that wasn’t its to give to people who had no right to receive it.”

        Precisely!!! It’s no “red rag”, it is the everlasting truth.

        GO Corbyn!

      • Marnie
        Marnie
        September 12, 2015, 12:55 am

        The best –

      • b.grand
        b.grand
        September 15, 2015, 10:16 pm

        Yes+++Yes @diasp0ra
        The root of the problem is before 1947, not with “Occupation” of 1967.

        NO —NO @David Gerald Fincham, and @Kris —NO VIOLENCE NEEDED, NO DESIRE OF JEWISH ISRAELIS (or their foreign supporters) NEEDED. South Africa transitioned in spite of the desire of the Whites to maintain Apartheid. Of course the big difference, S. A. did not have U.S.A. financial, military and U.N. veto support, which is why change in US is crucial.

        For a realistic and optimistic view, watch BEYOND ZIONISM, Hope for Freedom and Democracy. (Or any of MIKO PELED’s speeches.) His pro-Zionist debater is rather sad really, He doesn’t seem to realize that Miko’s sister, Nurit Peled-Elhanan, has literally written the book on Israeli schoolbooks.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxeh7L84CM8

        Miko Peled: Beyond Zionism, Hope for Freedom & Democracy in Palestine/Israel
        .

        IIR Prague

        IIR Prague

    • catalan
      catalan
      September 11, 2015, 8:51 pm

      ” The example I always give is that of the relationship between England and Scotland. – ” Mr. Filcham
      I fully agree that the Union of Scotland and England is a great example and shows a realistic outline of a solution.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 11, 2015, 11:21 pm

        “I fully agree that the Union of Scotland and England is a great example and shows a realistic outline of a solution.”

        No true Scotsman thinks that!

    • amigo
      amigo
      September 12, 2015, 6:12 am

      “Khamenei’s policy is that Palestinian resistance should be supported, and international pressure applied, leading to a return of the refugees and the re-unification of Palestine as a single state. As a result, Israel would disappear as a separate political entity, and there would be no Jewish state. ” DGF

      Well , given what that Jewish state has been used for since it,s birth , getting rid of it just might be what is needed.

      I am sure the White regime in SA had concerns about the end of their precious ” Caffer” free state.

      Yeah , my heart bleeds when racist bigots lose what they have stolen and murdered thousands to possess.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        September 18, 2015, 5:39 pm

        Fincham,

        When we accept the principle that colonial powers or any other invaders have no right to establish their own states on other peoples’ territory, the logical conclusion is that the existence of the colonial invader state “Israel” against the will of the owners of the sovereignty, i.e. the population at the time of the start of the armed colonial invasion and their heirs, is illegitimate* period. No matter what governments at the UN say, because the sovereignty is not theirs to assign, without at least a comprehensive referendum of all owners of the sovereignty, as described before and no additions.
        No sale, Fincham. When you agree to a basic principle, either you apply it to all applicable situations without exception, or you are opposing it (in this case, supporting the Zionist claims.) There’s no third way.

        *: even if it were not a racial supremacist, genocidal military dictatorship.

    • Danaa
      Danaa
      September 15, 2015, 4:18 am

      DGF – why is it so important for israel to remain a “Jewish” state? haven’t the past 50 years demonstrated that this is the last thing the Jews of Israel need?

      There are, I believe, traps set well within the heart of hearts of the jewish religion – traps that are set to spring the minute the concentration of jewish people reaches a critical mass. The traps are of their own making, a direct result of adherence to a somewhat distorted history and to a concept that is anachronistic in the modern world – that of choseness. Many smart and some even wise – jews debated over centuries, “chosen for what, exactly”. May be some suspected a Trojan horse. May be others got a whiff of something not quite “kosher”. Be it as it may, it’s a trap, one of several, hidden in plain sight of the bible, talmud and the holy/not so holy writings of the great rabbis.

      And being as I see that kind of clearly (though more needs to be said on the nature of the ‘trap”) it has been my contention for some time now that the jews of Israel need the Palestinians to become whole. Only that way lies redemption and a sense of peace. Only with the Palestinians, can Israel become Denmark, a promised land of something. In the same way, though for different reasons, the Palestinians need to live with the jews under a common fate, to find their own version of peace.

      just saying….(sorry, I have no proof of pending redemption …..but the possibility is there – for a while, at least).

      • dgfincham
        dgfincham
        September 15, 2015, 11:32 am

        Danaa: you say “Why is it so important for Israel to remain a “Jewish” state? haven’t the past 50 years demonstrated that this is the last thing the Jews of Israel need?”

        You may be right, but as a non-Jew my opinion is irrelevant. I am simply pointing out that there cannot be a peaceful solution unless it is acceptable to the Israeli population, and what the majority population in Israel wants is to be part of a Jewish state.

        I should qualify that. I am using the term “Jewish state” as Ben-Gurion once defined it: “a state with a Jewish majority”. There are certain aspects of the present day “Jewishness” of Israel that belie its claim to be a democratic state with equal rights for all citizens: the classification by the state of all citizens into Jewish and non-Jewish categories; the discrimination against the non-Jews in around 50 laws; the electoral system which, although it gives everyone a vote, in 67 years has only ever resulted in, I am told, a single non-Jewish government minister. I do not think the international community would recognize a peace treaty which did not put a stop to these practices.

        I agree entirely that the Jews need the Palestinians and the Palestinians need the Jews. Indeed, they can hardly avoid each other, crammed together as they are in a small piece of land (especially if large numbers of the refugees choose to return). That is why I think their long term future will be as a single state, formed by a union of the two nations in which each retains its identity.

      • Kris
        Kris
        September 15, 2015, 11:41 am

        @David Gerald Fincham: “…there cannot be a peaceful solution unless it is acceptable to the Israeli population, and what the majority population in Israel wants is to be part of a Jewish state. ”

        Then it will have to be a non-peaceful solution. Why should the rights of the Palestinians depend on what Jewish Israelis “want”?

      • CigarGod
        CigarGod
        September 15, 2015, 11:54 am

        It was only when Michael Collins made the Brits cry uncle that Ireland got on freedom road, right?

      • dgfincham
        dgfincham
        September 15, 2015, 12:16 pm

        Kris:

        “So it will have to be a non-peaceful solution. Why should it matter what the Israeli Jews want if what they want is to continue to oppress the Palestinians?”

        Of course the Zionist regime should be stopped from oppressing Palestinians. Time and time again history has shown that the most effective way of overcoming oppression is by non-violent civil resistance. Examples: civil rights for black Americans, majority rule and the end of apartheid in South Africa, the fall of Ceaucescu in Romania, power sharing in Northern Ireland, the Arab spring inTunisia.

      • Kris
        Kris
        September 15, 2015, 12:25 pm

        Non-violent civil resistance can be effective only when the oppressors are capable of being moved by the suffering of their victims. This is not the case with Israeli Jews, as demonstrated daily.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        September 15, 2015, 2:49 pm

        Fincham,

        I agree entirely that the Jews need the Palestinians and the Palestinians need the Jews. Indeed, they can hardly avoid each other, crammed together as they are in a small piece of land (especially if large numbers of the refugees choose to return). That is why I think their long term future will be as a single state, formed by a union of the two nations in which each retains its identity

        With all due respect, you are talking through your hat. It’s really surprising to see someone as educated as you are writing that a) the Zionists need the Palestinians, as if the very basis of Zionism was not to cleanse the land –in fact, “Greater” Palestine, from its owners and b) the Palestinians need the Zionists, yeah, like a hole in the head. Next you’ll write that they invited the Ashkenazi to come and occidentalize them.
        As for the future, there are other solutions. One, the Zionist solution, i.e. a genocide of the Palestinians completed before the application of force to the Zionist entity. Two, Palestine, i.e. an offer of citizenship to those who will live as loyal citizens under a Palestinian majority and expulsion of the rest of the invaders. And, frankly, any other solution, like “two states” as proposed now or “equal opportunity Israel for all” are pipe dreams. The former because it does not in any way or wise satisfy justice for the Palestinian people; the latter because it supposes that the Zionists and their unconditional Imperial allies are a bunch of peaceful, loving bonobos, who will give up their position for peace, without anything to negotiate with in the hands of their opposition.

      • dgfincham
        dgfincham
        September 18, 2015, 11:53 am

        Echinococcus:

        I did not say “Zionists”, I said Jews. Many, many Jewish citizens of Israel are intelligent and humane people, with a genuine desire to live in peace with Palestinians. Of course they support the continued existence of Israel, but this does not mean that they are Zio-supremacists.

        The two-state solution is not a ‘pipe dream’. The two states already exist as legal entities. An independent Palestine could be achieved tomorrow if the Security Council was willing to enforce international law and demand an end to Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory.

        The real pipe dream is that the “application of force to the Zionist entity” will solve the problem. Application of force in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya did indeed remove oppressive regimes, but left the people of those territories in a much worse state than before.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 18, 2015, 1:15 pm

        “The two states already exist as legal entities.”

        Oh please! Oh please! Stop, already When has Israel ever existed as the “legal entity” it was required to be, and claimed to be?
        Israel was not the “legal entity” it was cracked up to be from the hour of it’s founding!!!!
        The only Israel we’ve ever seen and know of is an illegal entity.

        You haven’t the slightest idea what Israel’s “legal entity” is You’ve never seen it. But you are willing to accept the illegal entity as a passable substitute? Are we just supposed to pretend?

      • dgfincham
        dgfincham
        September 18, 2015, 3:37 pm

        There were many crimes committed by the Zionist leadership in the founding of Israel, and there have been many crimes committed by the State of Israel subsequently. But that does not mean that the existence of Israel is, in itself, ‘illegal’. There is no world government, and hence no system of law higher than that of a sovereign state. That is the meaning of ‘sovereignty’. The UN Charter is treaty law, applicable only to states that are Member States. There is no body that has the authority to say that Israel does not exist, or that it must cease to exist. The decision by one state to recognize another is a sovereign decision of that state. I call Israel a ‘legal entity’ because other states say it is a state, and there is no law that can force them to say it is not: indeed, according to the Montevideo Convention, recognition is irrevocable.

        I use exactly the same argument to say that Palestine is a ‘legal entity’.

      • gamal
        gamal
        September 18, 2015, 3:45 pm

        “Time and time again history has shown that the most effective way of overcoming oppression is by non-violent civil resistance.”

        oh you do provide examples,

        “Examples: “civil rights for black Americans,” citizens arguing for their constitutional rights, there was some violence, there was also quite a lot of violence from the Black population, what effect that you will have to explain.

        ” majority rule and the end of apartheid in South Africa” Fincham old boy, there was war encompassing the whole southern continent, ever heard of Cuito?

        http://www.historytoday.com/gary-baines/replaying-cuito-cuanavale

        , “the fall of Ceaucescu in Romania” you done any research on that one or you just guessing,

        , “power sharing in Northern Ireland”, you are kidding old thing, remember the Boys of the Old Brigade

        “the Arab spring inTunisia.” a lot more too it than the triumph of non-violence.

        doesn’t it occur to you Fincham that while you were doing all that science some of us were doing that resistance stuff, were you useless at science as well.

        “that would make me a racist” you dont think your attitude and language, merely paternalistic for the purposes of this board dont reveal your real viciousness, so surrender on Palestine’s behalf, whose consent is required for nothing,

        when will you have concluded your Islamic studies and be in a position to tell us how to do it right or where we have been going wrong,

        Bob Andy wants a word in your shell like,

        https://youtu.be/llDv4J1Dnhg

  18. Marnie
    Marnie
    September 12, 2015, 12:59 am

    The letter sent by Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour in 1917, promising the British Empire’s support for “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people,” has long been a red rag to the Palestinians and the British anti-Israel movement. They view it as a case of Britain giving something that wasn’t its to give to people who had no right to receive it.”

    The last line of this paragraph is the best description of the Balfour declaration ever written and should be part of any discussion of it.

  19. jon s
    jon s
    September 12, 2015, 3:40 am

    An interesting survey in Haaretz:

    http://www.haaretz.com/st/c/prod/eng/2015/seker/1/

  20. Kay24
    Kay24
    September 12, 2015, 7:46 am

    OT but the new Stephen Colbert show was disappointing, when on the first day he made a few product endorsements, pretending to eat them. He started with Sabra Hummus (to impress his boss Les Moonves who happened to be there?), and I was very disappointing in Colbert for endorsing a product that has been made by a IDF supporting company:

    “Boycott campaigns[edit]
    Activists in the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement have called for boycotts of Sabra’s products, stating that the company financially supports the Israeli Defense Forces and human rights violations against Palestinians.[15][16][17] Sabra’s parent company, the Strauss Group, endorses the IDF on their English website.[18] As of 2014, students from numerous universities in the United States and Canada, such as American University, DePaul University, Princeton University, and the University of Ottawa, have advocated boycotts of Sabra products.[19][20][21]

  21. dgfincham
    dgfincham
    September 12, 2015, 10:42 am

    I am sorry that I am tied up with domestic affairs and can only give a brief reply to some of the people who have commented on my previous post.

    Diaspora: I agree that the occupation is not the real problem: I worded that badly. What I should have said is that ending the occupation is an essential first step in resolving the conflict. I am not suggesting that Palestine should be limited to the ‘1967 borders’ i.e the West Bank and Gaza. The border between Palestine and Israel needs to be negotiated with the help of a Boundary Commission under UN auspices. Palestine can make a very strong case that it need and deserves much more territory as compensation for land stolen by Israel in 1948-49.

    I agree that the positions of both peoples are not equally valid. But to me it is self-evident that there cannot be a lasting peace unless it is acceptable to both peoples. This situation is quite different to that in South Africa. In my view, the probability that the Israeli people will allow themselves to be absorbed by Palestine, or that the Palestinian people will allow themselves to be absorbed by Israel, is zero.

    Mooser: when I say that the majority of Israeli people want to preserve their Jewish identity, I mean as it is now in Israel. Not necessarily the same as that of Jewish people outside Israel.

    Bandolero: you say “a simple UN sanctioned boycott of military sales to Israel will bring the racist Zionist regime over Jerusalem down”. I don’t see any basis on which you can come to such a conclusion.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      September 12, 2015, 12:13 pm

      “Mooser: when I say that the majority of Israeli people want to preserve their Jewish identity, I mean as it is now in Israel. Not necessarily the same as that of Jewish people outside Israel.”

      Thank you Dr. Fincham, now I get it. The Jews in Israel have the real, “essential” Jewish character (which they just made up in the last 50 years) and the rest of us are just pale imitations. And of course the Modern Orthodox are the realest Jews of all, and their word should be law.
      I guess that’s the way mankind has “divided itself up”.

      “Israel declares itself to be a Jewish state, and its official religion is Orthodox Judaism.”

      Yup, it’s obvious, you think very, very little of us. You think we are best consigned to a theocracy. You think Israel should be under the control of the Orthodox? Yup, that’ll get you to two-states.

      • dgfincham
        dgfincham
        September 12, 2015, 1:47 pm

        Not at all. I have no opinion whatsoever on what is the essential character of Jewishness, or which Jews are pale imitations of which other Jews, or of which Jewish sects if any should play what role if any within Israeli society and governance. That is not for me to say.

        You have said twice that you think I have a low opinion of Jews. That would make me a racist. There is no justification in anything I have written to support such a conclusion. I ask you to withdraw and apologize for that remark.

        I have proposed a future for Israel and Palestine as two largely autonomous nations united into a single state, with a defined but open border between them, along the lines of the England/Scotland model. That would enable the two peoples to share the land but retain their national identities.

        Please, try to be more constructive in your comments. I would welcome well-argued criticism of my ideas.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 12, 2015, 4:16 pm

        “Not at all. I have no opinion whatsoever on what is the essential character of Jewishness, or which Jews are pale imitations of which other Jews, or of which Jewish sects if any should play what role if any within Israeli society and governance.”

        Seems to me that you do:

        “Israel declares itself to be a Jewish state, and its official religion is Orthodox Judaism.”

        So Israel is what a “Jewish State” is? And in Israel, the official religion rules.

        I think, the problem is, we are talking about two different places when we talk about Israel.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        September 12, 2015, 4:32 pm

        “That would make me a racist. There is no justification in anything I have written to support such a conclusion.”

        “Mooser: the human race has divided itself into nations, with different languages, different governing systems, different religions, different myths, different customs, different architecture, different music, different art, different food, etc.That is a fact.”

        And “Jewish” is one of those divisions in the human race? One of the “nations”? Got a description?

    • Bandolero
      Bandolero
      September 12, 2015, 7:37 pm

      David Gerald Fincham

      Bandolero: you say “a simple UN sanctioned boycott of military sales to Israel will bring the racist Zionist regime over Jerusalem down”. I don’t see any basis on which you can come to such a conclusion.

      The Zionist regime is fully dependent on western supply to maintain it’s qualitative military edge (QME). Israel for itself can not produce many weapons, it can’t produce no F15/F16, F-22, Apache, and neither many other things like advanced missiles, ammo etc. To maintain a military-industrial complex of the needed size for maintaining the colonial regime Israel is far too small. Israel lacks the needed workforce size, the industry and the economy to do that.

      When there will be UN sanctioned boycott of military sales to Israel the regime can spend it’s existing equipment once, if it can do maintanance to keep it working so far, but when it’s finished and no more supplies come in then Israel has no qualitative militatry edge anymore. At latest when that point is reached many of the colonialists will run away to where they came from or the US or Germany and no more colonialists will immigrate, because the racist regime attracts people only by the notion that it’s stronger and better armed than the native population. The collapse would be a gradual process. The resulting demografics will be the end of the Zionist regime.

      The Israeli nukes cannot save the Zionist regime in such a scenario because it can’t throw nukes on East-Jerusalem, Jaffa, Akko and so on without destroying itself.

  22. b.grand
    b.grand
    September 15, 2015, 12:08 pm

    @David Gerald Fincham, and @Kris

    Have you succumbed to fallacious logic? The end of the racist state need not be violent, nor do Jewish Israelis need to desire it.

    South Africa transitioned against the will of the Whites. Big difference, S. A. did not have U.S.A. financial, military and U.N. veto support — which is why making change here is so important. Another big difference, Palestinians and Jews are much more similar to each other than S.A. Blacks and Whites, so equalizing rights should be easier.

    Miko Peled explains.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ

    Thank you, David, for posting videos of Nurit Peled-Elhanan. She is Miko’s sister.

Leave a Reply