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Goldberg says the root of the conflict is the Palestinians’ anti-Jewish ‘narrative’

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Jeffrey Goldberg has an important article up at the Atlantic saying that the root cause of the conflict is a powerful Palestinian narrative: the refusal to accept that Jews have an ancient connection to the land of Israel, the adherence to “a worldview that dismisses the national and religious rights of Jews.”

[W]hat might be the actual root cause of the Middle East conflict [is] the unwillingness of many Muslim Palestinians to accept the notion that Jews are a people who are indigenous to the land Palestinians believe to be exclusively their own, and that the third-holiest site in Islam is also the holiest site of another religion, one whose adherents reject the notion of Muslim supersessionism…

When violence against Jews occurs inside Israel, or on the West Bank, a consensus tends to be reached quickly by outside analysts and political leaders, one that holds that such violence represents the inevitable consequence of Israel’s occupation and settlement of Palestinian territory. John Kerry, the U.S. secretary of state, said in an appearance earlier this week at Harvard that, “What’s happening is that unless we get going, a two-state solution could conceivably be stolen from everybody. And there’s been a massive increase in settlements over the course of the last years.” He went on to say, “Now you have this violence because there’s a frustration that is growing, and a frustration among Israelis who don’t see any movement.”

It is sometimes difficult for policymakers such as Kerry, who has devoted so much time and energy to the search for a solution to the Israeli-Arab impasse, to acknowledge the power of a particular Palestinian narrative, one that obviates the possibility of a solution that allows Jews national and religious equality.

I say this is an important article because it is getting passed around and it affirms a certain hard-core Zionist belief even inside the Beltway. Josh Marshall quibbles with Goldberg about the occupation, but says he is dead on about that nasty Palestinian narrative:

Critically, for Muslims and Arab nationalists, Zionism can’t be distinguished from and is actually simply a subgenre of European colonialism. And just as colonialism was reviled and ultimately turned out of the region, so will Zionism.

Actually, it’s not frightening “Muslims and Arab nationalists” who call Zionism colonialism: it’s the Palestinian community. And they have some cause for reviling Zionism. 750,000 Palestinians were forced from their homes in 1948, 5 million of them today live under occupation. Why talk about Muslim holy war in that context? You have to address the stakeholders to end a conflict. When Yousef Munayyer was asked to acknowledge the Jewish narrative of deliverance to Israel at an event in New York in June, he pointed out that it didn’t matter what the narrative was so long as Israel right now prevents him from living in the city of his birth with his wife, because she is from Palestine.

He was addressing actual Jim-Crow discrimination in the here and now, not storytelling.

I know the power of narrative; I wouldn’t be a writer if I didn’t. And society is continually compelled to acknowledge new narratives in order to effect shifts in power. This is what happened when the Holocaust was recognized in mainstream American culture in the 1970s. Jewish persecution was acknowledged and atoned for. Saul Bellow and Philip Roth were king. Our entire leadership culture changed.

Today the same process is taking place with respect to the Nakba; America is hearing new voices; and we are going to change the order of Middle East policy.

Goldberg is clearly alarmed that a Palestinian narrative is now competing with his ancient narrative of Jewish persecution. That’s the craziest part of his piece: he portrays the Palestinians as equal parties to Israelis, maybe even more powerful, as Adam Horowitz has written. Goldberg is alarmed because Palestinians are getting better at telling the world their story.

That story is not about Muslims “supersessionism” or whatever Goldberg calls Muslims’ attachment to the Noble Sanctuary in his effort to make this a religious war. That story is that Palestinians are a subject people, and some of them are violently resisting (as many people throughout the world would do). Their power consists in not ending a conflict that is more than a nuisance to Israel; and they won’t end it without justice. Goldberg leaves out the most dramatic chapter in the entire conflict: in the late 1980s the Palestinians agreed to accept Israel’s existence on more than 3/4 of the land if they could have a state on the leftovers. The Palestinians gave up their resistance for that deal; and got nothing for it but more colonies. This is what has bred resentment and rage! (As Ilene Cohen likes to say, Israel should have taken the money and run. It didn’t. It wanted more: those biblical lands that are meaningful even to a secular Washington liberal, Josh Marshall).

What is now dawning on Washington is that Israel is going to reap the whirlwind for its rejection of that historic compromise, the two-state solution (just as the rejection of the Missouri Compromise by the south that wanted more and more land led to its downfall). Many journalists will be involved in conveying that truth: lately Nancy Updike, who documents the triumph of the settlers in an interview with Daniella Weiss just aired on NPR. Goldberg is just doing disinformation.

Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is senior editor of Mondoweiss.net and founded the site in 2005-06.

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150 Responses

  1. Krauss on October 18, 2015, 12:06 pm

    A brief note on Josh Marshall, this is a man who named his son Allon, after Yigal Allon of the Palmach, in 2006.
    This is the current state of American liberalism in 2015.

    I keep saying: you need to understand that the support for Jewish Apartheid runs very, very deep in the media establishment in America, and yes, it’s connected to Jewish sociology. The Afrikaaners never even came close to this kind of massive media support, and this is why the conflict will end far longer in the future and with much more difficulty than the optimists think. America matters. In the 80s, even the Reagan administration had given up on the Afrikaaners. The media had turned against white-ruled SA in a uniform fashion. Israel has far more supporters in the U.S. media than SA ever had.

    Yet here we are, soon 50 years after the take-over of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and we have “liberals” like Marshall and Goldberg blaming Palestinians for being colonised and they don’t even pay a price for it! It’s amazing! Where are the “liberals” in this country!?

    • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 12:46 pm

      I believe Josh Marshall described his parents as “hippies” and discovered his profound Judaism in early adulthood.

      • philweiss on October 18, 2015, 12:48 pm

        It reminds me of Teddy Sayeed’s post on the new (Islamophobic) atheism ruining atheism. Zionists are ruining secularism!

      • on October 18, 2015, 1:02 pm

        Not really sure how is Zionism doing that. Secularism is a flawed concept all by its own. No society has ever functioned properly while actively segregating spirituality from governance. Most healthy societies and by extension states adopt a more holistic approach to religion and spirituality.

        In most cases, the process of segregating and removing any influence of religion on the state is much more problematic than the reverse scenario.

      • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 1:02 pm

        But Josh Marshall, arm-in-arm with Jefferey Goldberg swinging through the streets of Jerusalem? Wonderful what Tribal Unity can do. She’s a one-woman honey trap.

      • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 2:09 pm

        ” Most healthy societies and by extension states adopt a more holistic approach to religion and spirituality.”

        Oh, no need to waste a lot of words on it “a4tech”.

        Just say: ‘To see how a healthy society deals with religion, and makes it “holistic” look at Israel!’

      • on October 18, 2015, 2:37 pm

        Like it or not, religion is an integral part of human nature and it’s multiple names of Judaism, Buddhism or just plain old paganism only proves how the human psyche actively produces one wherever there is humanity. A society cannot thrive while artificially resisting the influence of religion on itself due to misguided ideals on liberation and humanism. Secularism as per it’s definition is not healthy mode of governance, it is a short sighted solution to the complex issue of maintaining a safe and stable state with a large population with diverse thoughts and beliefs.

      • John O on October 18, 2015, 3:21 pm

        @a4tech

        You misunderstand the concept of secularism. It’s not atheism (militant or peaceful). Nor does it involve the suppression of religion. It’s merely the separation of religion and government.

      • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 3:34 pm

        “Secularism as per it’s definition is not healthy mode of governance,”

        Tell it to the US Constitution, and at this point I feel fully justified in adding: “You friggin’ idiot!”

      • annie on October 18, 2015, 3:41 pm

        A society cannot thrive while artificially resisting the influence of religion on itself

        maybe not, but people, relationships, families and society can thrive without the influenced of religion. or do you think without religious guidance people wouldn’t learn murder and theft are wrong?

      • echinococcus on October 18, 2015, 3:53 pm

        4tech,

        Thank you, yet again, for the devout Moslem-Zionist viewpoint. It was as expected, tell you the truth: a state cannot be deemed normal or function properly if it doesn’t establish a religious or racial supremacy.

      • oldgeezer on October 18, 2015, 3:55 pm

        @Mooser

        Frigging idiot qualifies as a vast understatement

      • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 4:03 pm

        “Frigging idiot qualifies as a vast understatement”

        I don’t want to give the Mods any trouble.

      • RoHa on October 18, 2015, 6:39 pm

        What does “spirituality” mean?

      • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 7:09 pm

        “What does “spirituality” mean?”

        It’s like “Diddy-wah-diddy”. If you gotta ask, you ain’t never gonna know!

        But of all the poets, it was Blake who best limned its fleeting, subtle outline.

      • on October 18, 2015, 11:12 pm

        How typical of you Mooser, resorting to personal abuse after hearing views that offend your far-left sensibilities. Yes the US constitution advocates separation of state and church but you have to realize that was put in there as a reactionary attempt to ensure America doesn’t fall into the trap of religious violence which was common in Europe back then. The authors saw how the Europeans engage in century old feuds and blamed it all on religion rather simplistically. Yet America still turned out to be the most war-hungry nation that has ever existed. How did that happen?

        Reiterating my point, secularism is inherently flawed as it assumes a society can effectively separate its religion from governance. This is akin to refusing to acknowledge biases inherent in being a human and assuming a person can be 100% fair and just. No one can and it’s better to acknowledge the fact and build a society based on reality and not some elusive humanistic ideals.

      • annie on October 19, 2015, 8:53 am

        you’re really sounding nutty 4tech. if we weren’t backed up i’d give a more thorough response.

      • RoHa on October 19, 2015, 12:07 am
      • hophmi on October 19, 2015, 7:45 am

        Also, Zionists are ruining peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

        Seriously, Phil, is there any problem for which you won’t blame Zionism in your campaign to demonize Israel and your fellow Jews?

      • eljay on October 19, 2015, 8:47 am

        || hophmi: Also, Zionists are ruining peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Seriously, Phil, is there any problem for which you won’t blame Zionism in your campaign to demonize Israel and your fellow Jews? ||

        As far as I can tell, Phil doesn’t demonize his fellow Jews – he demonizes hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists. And rightly so.

        If you don’t like how it feels, stop being a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist.

      • bryan on October 19, 2015, 8:56 am

        @hophmi “is there any problem for which you won’t blame Zionism”

        Of course it’s not all the fault of Zionism. Some of the fault must also be attached to Diaspora Jews who value their prosperity, security, absence of conscription etc and would never dream of emigrating to a dangerous area of the the Middle East which traditionally belonged to another people altogether, but do feel the pangs of a crude tribal loyality. Much of the fault must be attached to the gentile world where there is too much readiness to swallow the myths presented by the mass-media, (or at least pay lip-service to them in return for votes and political subsidies), plus a fear of being labelled anti-Semitic, and a strange guilt about the Holocaust, even though that happened long before most of the gentile supporters of Israel were even born. A great deal of the fault belongs with Christian Zionism, which despite its nominal loyalty to the concept, is simply one of the whackiest ideologies ever invented. So sometimes when Zionism is mentioned people are not just referring to the ideallistic champions of an ancient people returning to their proclaimed ancient stomping grounds to forge a new society, but also to a strange bandwagon of misfits and neer-do-wells who collude in Israel’s crimes.

      • DKWilson on October 19, 2015, 9:46 am

        a4tech- “Secularism” is not part of human nature. You are confusing and religion, a man (literally)-made construct with living life through ritual, which is the manner in which indigenous peoples globally “prehistorically” lived. It is this way of living that Western countries, for their entire existence, sought to supplant with their secular worldview. In fact, the basis for perceiving indigenous peoples as “sub-human” arose from the disgustingly flawed concept that their polytheist relationship between themselves, the world around them and the universe, made them no better than animals. The infamous Las Casas v. Sepulveda debates of 1550-1551 revolve around this very – Western – issue.

        The fact that monotheism is a political construct aimed directly at any populace a ruling class seeks to subjugate should be a clue as to its aims.

        If that somehow escapes the average person, the fact that NO society with monotheism as its overreaching socio-cultural foundational aspect has, internally with its own populace or externally with others, existed peacefully, should be enough of a clue to dissuade even the most ardent believer in authoritarianism from adhering to the construct of secularism as part-and-parcel of human governance.

        To use secularism as a verbal weapon, as negative propaganda, is to further the lie of “collective exceptionalism” of one culture over another, to ardently support xenophobia and jingoism, and most insanely, to support the psychopath birthed and maintained idea of conquest and colonialism as, somehow, a benefit to peoples globally.

        Good luck with that.

      • Mooser on October 19, 2015, 11:18 am

        “if we weren’t backed up i’d give a more thorough response.”

        If you don’t mind, I’ll stick with “You friggin idiot!”. It seems to meet the case very well.

      • Mooser on October 19, 2015, 11:24 am

        “And you don’t mean that at all.”

        No, I meant the real Blake! Not that pale simalcrum of a poet.(And he couldn’t finger-pick to save his iambic pentameter, is what I hear around the pool-hall.)

        “Went to church,
        put my hat on the seat.
        Lady sat on it, and said”
        ‘Daddy, you’se so sweet!’

        It’s your diddy-wah-dddy!
        Yes, your diddy-wah-diddy!
        Oh, I wish somebody could tell me what diddy-wah-diddy means!”

        Now that, son, is poetry.

      • Mooser on October 19, 2015, 11:36 am

        ” that offend your far-left sensibilities.”

        Good Lord, I never though about it! I am a “leftist” yes, a “far leftist”. My ambition (no matter how far fetched) is to be a good “leftist” like Commissar Richard Holmes

        And I dedicate the linked song to “a4tech’s” thought processes.

      • RoHa on October 19, 2015, 7:21 pm

        “And he couldn’t finger-pick to save his iambic pentameter,”

        Yeah, but could your guy do creepy religious drawings?

      • Mooser on October 20, 2015, 10:37 am

        “Yeah, but could your guy do creepy religious drawings? “

        Can you tell me what “diddy-wah-diddy” means? Yes, I thought not.
        RoHa, if I could play LHbass with the a fraction of the verve, impact and joy (that’s JOY! a hard thing to get out of a Hammond!) that Richard “Groove” Holmes did, I wouldn’t care about putting egg-tempura on the Holy Family.

    • Keith on October 18, 2015, 5:21 pm

      KRAUSS- “Where are the “liberals” in this country!?”

      Classic liberalism is incompatible with neoliberalism and no longer exists. Those who call themselves “liberals” are merely promoting an image of themselves which they believe has some market value. We are on a dysfunctional trajectory toward some truly dark times.

  2. bintbiba on October 18, 2015, 12:07 pm

    How many generations / centuries does it take for you to feel sufficiently attached and indigenous to the land and soil under your feet that sustains your body and spirit (regardless of any godly bequest )… How long do the generations of Americans need to exist on that land you call your own to feel truly part of that land?
    And you already do !!

    Well the Palestinians have existed , and were nurtured by that land they love for centuries longer than you have by your land .Their magnificent ages-old olive trees that your ‘people’ are busily running around rampaging and tearing out of the ground their ancient precious roots that have endured through the ages out of the love and care given them ….. those trees are testament to the endurance of their carers and keepers.

    Mr Goldberg …go search for another god and ‘book’ to find some place to feel you belong in and be loyal to it. . You already have a magnificent continent…and it has treated you very well indeed !! Just be loyal and true to it, and in the length of time it shall nurture you and sustain you well !

    Consider yourself very fortunate !

    • on October 18, 2015, 12:16 pm

      Pretty sentimental stuff you wrote there. Problem is, you are arguing to emotion and not basing yourself on reality. Just because a particular location has been bountiful to you doesn’t mean you are obliged to stay there as part of a moral debt when things start to downhill. If one day for some reason the earth beneath Palestine turn saline and fail to support crops, would you still allow your sentiments to dictate your course of action?

      Humans migrate as they deem necessary. Pledging to stick to wherever your ancestors claimed they originated from is straight up BS and never will be a valid strategy to sustain life and your progeny.

      • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 12:57 pm

        “If one day for some reason the earth beneath Palestine turn saline and fail to support crops….”

        Because Israel sucked up all the water? Yeah, that could happen. But naturally, it would be the best possible thing that could happen in this best of all possible worlds.

      • on October 18, 2015, 1:07 pm

        How would that be a good thing Mooser, especially to those people who claim to have some sort of meta-biological attachment to the land? If we were to take these people seriously, that scenario would eventually entail the extinction of the said peoples.

      • annie on October 18, 2015, 1:18 pm

        you’re a drama queen 4t. and you should make up your mind about what your opinion is. one second it’s Humans migrate as they deem necessary. and the next you claim that scenario would eventually entail the extinction of the said peoples.

        so which is it?

      • John O on October 18, 2015, 1:09 pm

        @a4tech

        “Pledging to stick to wherever your ancestors claimed they originated from is straight up BS…”

        Glad to hear that you will have no complaints when the settlers are finally kicked out of the Occupied West Bank.

      • bintbiba on October 18, 2015, 1:15 pm

        Very simple, short reply…a4tech

        Were the soil beneath my feet to turn saline and I had to heave-ho somewhere else l would go where i make myself welcome and where I do not turn on the ones that choose to stay malgrès tout and chase them away and take their home, their luscious orange groves by the sea, their warm pots just off the fire and their enduring olive trees that may still give sustenance and beauty .
        Besides,… they did not migrate, they came with guns and they conquered

        And besides… I did not stay…. I was most unceremoniously chased away ! Through terror most European .

        Simple my friend.. Simple kindliness and humanity can make your uninvited presence less unwelcome. And the emotional response is through anger at the false narrative being promoted.

        ‘Do unto others…. …..”

      • on October 18, 2015, 1:31 pm

        I was pointing out the ridiculousness of forming a loyalty bond to a piece of land which could be any piece of land. If the land provides for you, stay and enjoy the bounty. Otherwise move along to somewhere else. No need to spout this emotional bs about being one with the land etc. I’m sure those coastal Bangladeshis or Maldivian see me point.

      • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 1:47 pm

        Good old “a4tech” Three comments, five opinions:

        “Israel’s main threat is it’s illegitimacy in state ideology and practice. Once the civilian population are sufficiently made aware of the fact, it will be impossible for Israel to even leverage support domestically, let alone from foreign nations.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/because-global-supplier#comment-155495

        Counting down until Israel’s “civilian population are sufficiently made aware of the fact”, ready? Ten, nine, eight….

      • just on October 18, 2015, 1:48 pm

        a4tech~ who are you to tell a Palestinian victim of the horrendous horror that is the ongoing Nakba what to do, how to feel, and how to think?

        Why are you defending the thieving invaders and Occupiers?

      • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 2:03 pm

        “I was pointing out the ridiculousness of forming a loyalty bond to a piece of land which could be any piece of land.”

        You mean, “Zionism”. Yes it is ridiculous, and very dangerous. Especially when the group who is going to conquer this land is quickly disappearing. And the “loyalty bond” is imaginary and requires volunteerism.

        Yup you are describing Zionism to a “T”

      • annie on October 18, 2015, 2:15 pm

        ” ridiculousness of forming a loyalty bond to a piece of land”

        oh yeah that makes perfect sense not. i bought my house almost 40 years ago. how ridiculous that i would ‘form a loyalty bond’ with my own garden when it “could be any piece of land”!!! just because i planted these trees when they were sprigs and nurtured them and watched them grow doesn’t mean i’d ever get attached to them!! what’s next? why be attached to your children when any child would do?

        what’s ridiculous is forming a loyalty bond to my neighbors land and killing him for it.

      • on October 18, 2015, 2:08 pm

        Mooser I thought I’ve clarified my stance multiple times before while engaging with you. To oppose Israel and zionism is a straightforward action to take if you are either a neutral party or a stakeholder in Palestinian struggles. I judge Israel on its own merit or lack of it, not because I support Palestine. However, this doesn’t mean I don’t support Palestine, it just mean there are two independent actions to take concerning this issue.

      • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 2:22 pm

        “Mooser I thought I’ve clarified my stance multiple times….”

        Oh, yeah, you’ve clarified your “stance”. It’s the wide one.

      • diasp0ra on October 18, 2015, 2:22 pm

        @a4tech

        “I was pointing out the ridiculousness of forming a loyalty bond to a piece of land which could be any piece of land”

        What is this drivel?
        Are you serious?

        If it’s so ridiculous, could you please give me your address? I’d like to take over your house, and you’re ridiculous if you object because any house could do.

      • on October 18, 2015, 2:50 pm

        It seems I articulated my point rather poorly based on these comments. I’m just curious, how would both the Israelis and the Palestinians react if the land both sides are claiming suddenly through no fault of either side were to turn absolutely barren with no vegetation or water or minerals or oil. Would these people still continue to harp about their special connection to the land and how they wish to continue their forefathers lineage on the land come what may? Or would they be like, “hey you know what, you were right. You can have this land, I’ll pack my bags and go”.

      • annie on October 18, 2015, 2:54 pm

        4tec, you’re spamming. stop. we don’t need your hypotheticals.

      • on October 18, 2015, 3:06 pm

        No Annie, it’s just you who are so knee deep in ideology you can’t bring yourself to question your beliefs because you are afraid of realizing your idealism goes against reality. This is a common ailment of leftists, especially those who calls themselves one.

      • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 3:30 pm

        “I’m just curious….”

        Well, “a4tech” you have a chance to find out. This is proving pretty barren territory for you. What do you intend to do about it?

      • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 3:54 pm

        “No Annie, it’s just you who are so knee deep in…”

        Excuse me? You have decided to start personally abusing a Moderator? That’s smart.
        And then you unveil the sharpest blade in your drawer: “leftists”?

        Wow, talk about putting the “ick” in “pathetic”

        What is it you are trying to accomplish?

      • RoHa on October 18, 2015, 6:34 pm

        The Maldivians are showing their attachment to the land by building four new airports to bring in more tourists.

      • gamal on October 19, 2015, 3:27 am

        “it’s just you who are so knee deep in ideology you”

        “your idealism goes against reality”

        “This is a common ailment of leftists, especially those who calls themselves one.”

        As a Muslim may I point out the example of our Prophet,

        ” Once when the Holy Prophet divided some wealth among his followers, one man accused him to his face of being unfair and told him: “Fear God, O Muhammad”. After the man had left, the following conversation took place between Khalid ibn Walid (great general from the Palestinian Khalidi’s claim descent) and the Holy Prophet, as recorded in Bukhari:

        Khalid: “Shall I strike off his neck?”

        Holy Prophet: “No, perhaps he is a man who says prayers.”

        Khalid: “There are many people who pray, but what they say is not what is in their hearts.”

        Holy Prophet: “I have not been commanded by God to cut open people’s chests to see what is inside their hearts.”
        (Book: Maghazi, ch. 63.)

        Here a man insults the Holy Prophet to his face, and a Muslim asks permission to kill the man. The Holy Prophet advances the possibility of there being some good in the culprit, but Khalid argues that the man’s prayers are only for show. The Holy Prophet then makes it clear that we cannot know about people’s motives or sincerity, but have to accept that what they are doing is in good faith”

        I hate to say it but you may have offended Islamic “spirituality” I mean ” “And when the foolish address them roughly they reply with peaceful words betokening gentleness.” (25:72), momentary lapse no doubt when did you find reality and whats it like? Aslo try to man up in front of the kuffar, you letting the side down with all this whining, you do recall we celebrate diversity of opinion, its a blessing, walahi azeem.

      • gamal on October 19, 2015, 3:45 am

        let us consider the words of the prophet luqman to his son, “O son! Do not dispute with the knowledgeable lest they detest you.”

    • John O on October 18, 2015, 12:32 pm

      Well said, Bintbiba.

      Your mention of the Olive tree started me thinking. Here in England, I suppose our national tree is the English Oak (Quercus robur), but perhaps it should be the European Yew (Taxus baccata). You will see one or more in almost every churchyard in the country, many of them hundreds of years old, and some well over a thousand years. They have no practical use, the wood and fruit containing toxins, and we have long since stopped using longbows. But still they stand – living things bearing witness to generations who have lived near them and whose ancestors lie in their shade. No one would dream of cutting therm down. Contemplating the Yew, I can feel how you feel about the Olive.

      • RoHa on October 18, 2015, 6:36 pm

        “we have long since stopped using longbows.”

        You’ll regret that one day.

      • bintbiba on October 20, 2015, 8:08 am

        Thanks John O .

        And this is for annie,

        Thank you annie for your support here !
        I just loved your comparison with your garden and”‘any other child would do !!'”

        Wonderful .

      • annie on October 20, 2015, 11:28 am

        it’s always an honor hearing your voice bintbiba. you don’t ever have to thank me, the pleasure is all mine ;)

  3. Krauss on October 18, 2015, 12:10 pm

    By the way, did you see Bill de Blasio’s gushing praise of Israel? The man even evoked blood as evidence of why Israel and the US belong together. A liberal evoking genetics and blood? There’s something about Zionism which throw out all the normal rules out of the window.

    Second story: have you seen the recent oil find in occupied Golan Heights? It’s huge.
    http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/10/major-oil-find-on-golan-heights-which.html

    Look at the very end of the blogpost. See all these neocons and then we have our friend Larry Summers, the “liberal”.

    We need to have a discussion about Zionism and liberalism in America. It is long, long overdue.

    • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 12:53 pm

      “There’s something about Zionism which throw out all the normal rules out of the window.”

      That, my friend, is the collection of behaviors and psychological disabilities what I’ve been calling “The Ziocaine Syndrome” for many years.
      It doesn’t surprise me that people think it must be a chemical intoxicant.

      • Steve Grover on October 18, 2015, 3:44 pm

        Calm down Mooser. Jake Arietta is pitching tonight. Zionism and Cub Fever – 2 great things!

      • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 4:07 pm

        “Calm down Mooser. Jake Arietta is pitching tonight. Zionism and Cub Fever – 2 great things! -“

        And we must never lose sight of the fact that the Ziocaine Syndrome can exist concurrently with other debilitating conditions, like alcoholism, untreated behavioral issues, geriatric emotional regression or even incipient schizophrenia. Unfortunately, there is every evidence the various pathologies can potentiate the others, too.
        Well, I mean, take a look at “Grover”.

      • talknic on October 18, 2015, 4:43 pm

        Amazing how low some jerks will go to prove they’re jerks

      • Steve Grover on October 18, 2015, 5:34 pm

        Talknic sounds like a Mets fan, although Cub’s Fan and Mets fans like Israel.

      • Steve Grover on October 18, 2015, 5:37 pm

        Talknic sounds like a Mets fan, although Cubs fans and Mets fans like Israel.

      • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 6:46 pm

        “Talknic sounds like a Mets fan, although Cubs fans and Mets fans like Israel.”

        And you, as usual, seem drunk.

      • jimby on October 18, 2015, 8:15 pm

        Thanks Steve GRover, now I know who to root against. I have been rooting against the Washington Redskins ever since it was revealed that it was Richard M Nixon’s favorite team.
        Nothing against Jews, but I put Zionism on the same pedestal as the Klu Klux Klan and I still have some white friends.

      • Steve Grover on October 19, 2015, 9:53 am

        Jimby sez:
        “I put Zionism on the same pedestal as the Klu Klux Klan and I still have some white friends.”
        I’ll let Arte Johnson reply:
        http://youtu.be/5Qf6Sv3A9zs

    • RockyMissouri on October 19, 2015, 12:38 pm

      I am disgusted by them.

  4. just on October 18, 2015, 12:24 pm

    Thanks for your astute comments, Krauss and bintbiba. The “Palestinian narrative” was never about the creepy manufactured imaginings of this Israeli prison guard. Goldberg’s only purpose has been to bury the truth and to deny the Palestinians any narrative and their belonging in their own land.

    For the gazillionth time, there’s no such thing as a “liberal Zionist”.

    I found this glimmer of hope this morning:

    “New Jewish network launches worldwide initiative against occupation

    A new international network of Jewish groups and individuals committed to justice in Palestine released a statement over the weekend calling for an end to the killing and an end the occupation. The network, which first met over the summer and has yet to come up with a name, currently spans 16 countries — from Brazil, to Australia, to Switzerland and South Africa — and represents 15 organizations.

    According to the preface to their statement, the group seeks to “reclaim Jewish identity not as a nationalist identity but as one that celebrates our diverse roots, traditions & communities wherever we are around the world. We believe that it is essential for there to be a global Jewish voice to challenge Israel’s destructive policies, in solidarity with the Palestinian struggle. This international Jewish network aims to become that voice.”…

    … In times of heightened violence, specifically against Israelis, Jewish organizations and individuals around the world tend to either show support for Israel or stay silent. It is taboo to criticize Israel when there are terror attacks against Israeli citizens, as was clear during the Second Intifada. But that is precisely when it is most necessary. To both identify as Jewish and show a deep concern for what is going on in Israel while criticizing its policies is rare, making this letter is so important.

    Here are some excerpts:

    As members of Jewish communities around the world, we are horrified by the violence that is sweeping the streets of Palestine/Israel, costing the lives of over 30 people, both Palestinians and Israelis in the past two weeks alone. A 2 year old girl in Gaza was the youngest of 4 Palestinian children who were killed in the past two weeks. A 13 year-old Israeli boy is in critical condition after being stabbed nearly a dozen times. Over a thousand people were injured in the same period. Fear has completely taken over the streets of Jerusalem, the center of this violence. Israelis shooting Palestinian protesters in and around East Jerusalem. Palestinians stabbing and shooting Israeli civilians and policemen in the middle of the streets. Israeli forces killing Palestinian suspects when they are clearly not a threat and without trial. Palestinians throwing stones at passing cars. Israeli mobs beating up Palestinians or calling on police to shoot them. Humiliating strip searches of Palestinians in the streets – all of these have become a daily occurrence in the city in which we are raised to pray for peace, as well as other places in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank….

    It is incumbent on all Jews around the world to pressure the Israeli government – and those who follow and support its words and deeds – to change its approach. The military crackdown must cease immediately, Palestinians must be allowed complete freedom of movement. It is also a responsibility of Jewish people worldwide to obligate the countries in which we live to immediately cease the economic and military support of the ongoing Israeli occupation in Palestine and siege of Gaza. As a group of Jews from around the world we believe that immediate change needs to come from the Israeli government and Israeli people. It is incumbent on all Jews around the world to pressure the Israeli government – and those who follow and support its words and deeds – to change its approach. The military crackdown must cease immediately, Palestinians must be allowed complete freedom of movement. It is also a responsibility of Jewish people worldwide to obligate the countries in which we live to immediately cease the economic and military support of the ongoing Israeli occupation in Palestine and siege of Gaza.

    We call on our Jewish communities, and our broader communities, to publicly insist on an end to the violence, occupation, siege and military response and instead demand equality and freedom for the Palestinian people and justice for all.

    According to Jordy Silverstein, a historian and writer from Melbourne who signed onto the statement, the point is to “increase the dissent in our communities.” The network, she says, “seeks to show that a Zionism based on militarism, exclusion, violence, division, murder, and lies isn’t the only way of living on that land, or of expressing ones Jewishness.” ”

    http://972mag.com/jewish-network-launches-worldwide-initiative-against-occupation/112896/

    Any bets on whether Goldberg or Marshall will sign on?

    • Steve Grover on October 18, 2015, 1:00 pm

      They found less than 60 morons around the world to sign the letter.

      • annie on October 18, 2015, 1:47 pm

        They found less than 60 morons around the world to sign the letter.

        um, the letter was just released. the petition is now at 160. considering you wrote your comment 45 minutes ago it appears almost 100 people have signed since then.

      • annie on October 18, 2015, 1:49 pm

        make that 161

      • John O on October 18, 2015, 2:03 pm

        @ Steve Grover

        It’s “fewer than 60”. Any fule kno that!

      • Steve Grover on October 18, 2015, 3:37 pm

        Annie,
        I noticed you, Weiss and Horowitz aren’t among those who signed.

      • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 4:24 pm

        “I noticed you, Weiss and Horowitz aren’t among those who signed.”

        And you are just waiting until they sign, to sign it yourself?

      • RoHa on October 18, 2015, 6:38 pm

        Thank you, John O. and N. Molesworth.

      • Steve Grover on October 18, 2015, 7:01 pm

        No Mooser I won’t sign. I’d rather root for the Mets than sign anything Brant Rosen signs.

      • just on October 18, 2015, 7:02 pm

        Ditto that, RoHa.

        Well done, John O.

    • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 1:56 pm

      “Just” I think Goldberg is just trying to float some crap that can be used in the ’16 election” It’s a bubble full of crap, but it just might float long enough to help out the Democratic candidate by providing this year’s equivalence Hasbara.

      • just on October 18, 2015, 7:05 pm

        I don’t think that bubble can float. It’s chockablock full o’ caca.

        It’s a stinker of a sinker. It’s gonna pop and flop.

      • Mooser on October 19, 2015, 12:40 am

        “It’s a stinker of a sinker. It’s gonna pop and flop.”

        It’s all the Dem candidates have. They will eagerly grasp any opportunity to create some charade of equivalence, I fear.

  5. Maximus Decimus Meridius on October 18, 2015, 12:30 pm

    “the unwillingness of many Muslim Palestinians to accept the notion that Jews are a people who are indigenous to the land Palestinians believe to be exclusively their own”

    Of course they are unwilling to accept such a bizarre ‘notion’, for the simple reason that it isn’t true. The vast majority of Jews are not indigenous to Palestine. Those Jewish Palestinians who are indigenous lived there in peace for centuries, alongside Christians and Muslims. It was only when Jews from Eastern Europe started colonising Palestine that unrest started. The Palestinians had no problem at all with local Jews, just with European colonists who wanted to steal their land. Fancy that.

    “policymakers such as Kerry, who has devoted so much time and energy to the search for a solution to the Israeli-Arab impasse”

    He has? Really? That’s news to me.

    “a particular Palestinian narrative,”

    I remember a decade or so ago, it was all about ”Palestinian schoolbooks” being the cause of Palestinian resentment of their occupiers. Everyone from Hilary Clinton on down – few of them with even the most superficial knowledge of Arabic – made a point of blaming everything on the ‘incitement’ from these dastardly textbooks. Now, it’s all about the “particular Palestinian narrative” – because the actual history of colonisation, ethnic cleansing and relentless Israeli violence doesn’t provide enough ‘incitement’ all by itself.

    Goldberg really is just a naval-gazing Jewish supremacist. If he represented any other ‘ethnic’ group, he’d never get his screeds published in a major publication, and would be reviled as the racist ideologue he is.

    • Sibiriak on October 18, 2015, 1:10 pm

      Maximus Decimus Meridius : “the unwillingness of many Muslim Palestinians to accept the notion that Jews are a people who are indigenous to the land Palestinians believe to be exclusively their own”

      Of course they are unwilling to accept such a bizarre ‘notion’, for the simple reason that it isn’t true. The vast majority of Jews are not indigenous to Palestine.
      ——————–

      Of course they aren’t.

      And equally important: Goldberg suggests that Palestinians are insisting the land be “exclusively their own,” when in fact it is Israeli Jews who are insisting on exclusivity.

      The Palestinians long ago recognized Israel’s existence within 1967 borders. The Israelis, in stark contrast, have never recognized the existence of a Palestinian state, and to this day have done their damnedest to prevent such a state.

      In short, his argument is a case of pathological projection .

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius on October 18, 2015, 2:50 pm

        I agree. It was the Zionists who wanted Palestine all to themselves. By contrast, the Palestinians have been generous to a fault.

        And still, it’s never enough for the Zionists. It never, ever is, or can be. When, like most Zionists, you believe that the whole world owes you something merely for being Jewish, then nothing will ever be enough.

    • Boomer on October 18, 2015, 4:00 pm

      “If he represented any other ‘ethnic’ group, he’d never get his screeds published in a major publication, and would be reviled as the racist ideologue he is.”

      Indeed. And he isn’t alone.

  6. Bumblebye on October 18, 2015, 12:49 pm

    FaceBook, Jafar Ramini has posted a message that Netanyahu has banned Kerry from meeting him in Israel – so he can’t go see any Palestinians or find out on the ground facts re behavior of iof. Now will apparently meet in Germany. Posted one hour ago, from (I think) someone fairly senior.

    • Bumblebye on October 18, 2015, 12:57 pm

      Message, translated by Ramini, was from his friend Bassam Abu Sharif, member PNC, former advisor to Arafat.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius on October 18, 2015, 2:47 pm

      I doubt Kerry was interested in hearing the Palestinian perspective anyway.

      He certainly never has been until now, so why change?

  7. chocopie on October 18, 2015, 1:15 pm

    So glad to read this here. Goldberg’s articles appear regularly in The Atlantic online without a comment section. Readers can comment on all the other articles, but this prison guard’s writing about Israel is so precious that readers are expected to withhold comments. I wish Mondoweiss would run a comment thread for each one of his articles that appears in The Atlantic. I can’t stomach reading anything he writes anymore, since I know I won’t have the satisfaction of reading even a single critical comment afterwards. It’s too much to bear.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius on October 18, 2015, 2:46 pm

      Similar to The Guardian. Articls on pretty much everything, including the most sensitive subjects, are open for comments (except when it’s not advised for legal reasons). However, Israel is just so precious and delicate a subject that comments are rarely opened on these threads, and when they are, the utterly absurd censorship makes the comment section resemble a Swiss cheese before long.

  8. Ossinev on October 18, 2015, 1:18 pm


    “Jeffrey Goldberg has an important article up at the Atlantic saying that the root cause of the conflict is a powerful Palestinian narrative: the refusal to accept that Jews have an ancient connection to the land of Israel”

    So Jeffrey old bean to sum up and I do hope that I have understood you correctly what you are actually saying is that all Jews be they the descendants of the small pre-zionist native Jewish population of Palestine or the millions of new arrivals from overseas anti semitic hotspots like Brooklyn,Golders Green,Sydney,Toronto,Moscow,Antartica and Monaco to name but a few ,have the absolute right to set up home in Palestine as they are the real indigeneous inhabitants of the land because there was a Judea there back in Roman times and none of these people are converts to Judaism or the descendants of converts to Judaism and are all in fact descended directly from the original Judeans and have full title to all of Palestine and the problem is that these bastard Arab neanderthals who still live there and the ones who chose of their own volition to emigrate to Jordan and the Lebanon 67 years ago don`t have the courage and compassion (being neanderthals) to recognize that they are not the real natives and if only they were to recognize this and go live elsewhere there would be everlasting peace. Phew deep breath.

    I am sir in awe of your intellect. Following on from your powerful and incisive analysis of Saddam`s threat to the west including the small Jewish population in the Artic you deserve at least a moderately thickish brown envelope from Sheldon.

    Looking forward to further little gems from you.

    BTW Just for the record as there appears to be some confusion in this area. Are you an Israeli or an American or an Antartican ?

    • RoHa on October 18, 2015, 6:49 pm

      “Phew deep breath.”

      And well deserved, sir.

      But you forgot to mention that every one of those Jews can prove their descent from the Jews of ancient Palestine. They can all show you genealogies drawn up by the College of Arms and approved as kosher by the Garter King of Arms himself.

    • RockyMissouri on October 19, 2015, 12:53 pm

      That was TOO WONDERFUL..!!!

      Thank you.

  9. KRN on October 18, 2015, 1:47 pm

    “What might be the actual root cause of the Middle East conflict [is] the unwillingness of many Muslim Palestinians to accept the notion that Jews are a people who are indigenous to the land Palestinians believe to be exclusively their own, and that the third-holiest site in Islam is also the holiest site of another religion, one whose adherents reject the notion of Muslim supersessionism…” – could there be a better example of truth inversion than this? Switch it around and you have a startlingly accurate description of the truth: “What might be the actual root cause of the Middle East conflict [is] the unwillingness of many Jewish Israelis to accept the notion that Palestinians are a people who are indigenous to the land Jews believe to be exclusively their own, and that the holiest site in Judaism is also the third-holiest site of another religion, one whose adherents reject the notion of Jewish supersessionism…” It is remarkable for its accuracy and so really suggests a kind of unconscious psychological splitting akin to the ways a sociopath accuses their victim of doing to them the very thing they are doing to their victim.

    • Boomer on October 18, 2015, 3:57 pm

      re “It is remarkable for its accuracy and so really suggests a kind of unconscious psychological splitting akin to the ways a sociopath accuses their victim of doing to them the very thing they are doing to their victim.”

      Yes: well said, very true, and a common feature in attempts to defend Israel. But can we be sure that it is unconscious? Such reversal is a tactic commonly and consciously used by political strategists such as Karl “Turd Blossom” Rove, et al. Thus we had “Swift Boat Veterans for Truth” putting Kerry (who actually fought in Vietnam) on the defensive for his military valor when pitted against an opponent whose “war” record was clearly just the opposite.

      • oldgeezer on October 18, 2015, 4:18 pm

        I don’t believe it is remotely unconscious. Even language has been hijacked by zionist to justify their perverse needs and agenda. One reference to dirty feet becomes the ultimate incitement while actual calls for violence and crimes against humanity by Israeli leaders becomes mere discourse. Changes to the agreed upon status quo become maintaining. It’#s time to stamp paid to the vile and evil zionist experiment.

  10. MHughes976 on October 18, 2015, 4:02 pm

    You surely can’t have a right to something by wanting it, however passionately, otherwise nothing valuable, therefore widely desired, would be the property of anyone. More generally, you surely cannot derive objective rights from subjective feelings, whose multiple conflicts destroy objectivity.
    The normal sense of ‘indigenous’ refers, in respect of each individual, to the place of birth, so one may say that a mass of people were each and all born in a place then they can be called indigenous as a group.
    Normally people born in a place have rights there, that being overwhelmingly the most convenient way to ascribe citizenship prior to individual decisions about emigration etc.. And of course you are not indigenous in more than one place and not indigenous in any place just because some of the multitude of ancestors were born there.
    One may decide to extend the meaning of ‘indigenous’ to those who cherish a certain kind of feeling about a place. But for reasons given that kind of indigenousness cannot create the kind of right that goes with the idea in the narrower sense. To behave as if you had a right spun purely from your own subjective ideas is egoism in a person, racism in a group and generally wicked.

    • RoHa on October 18, 2015, 7:14 pm

      And once again you hit the nail squarely on the head. If the rest of your carpentry skills are as impressive, your wife must be constantly asking you for domestic woodwork.

      • MHughes976 on October 21, 2015, 2:53 am

        I have put this to her – she thinks I often get sharp end and blunt end mixed up.

  11. MHughes976 on October 18, 2015, 4:19 pm

    Just to add that the claim to Jewish indigenousness is a sort of secularisation and travesty of the traditional religious claim, that God for his special purposes and the ultimate good of all commissioned the Israelites, who were anything but indigenous, to take possession as conquerors. This is at least a coherent moral claim if you grant divine right, not nonsense like being born in Denmark but indigenous in Peru.

    • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 5:04 pm

      “is a sort of secularisation and travesty of the traditional religious claim, that God for his special purposes and the ultimate good of all commissioned the Israelites…”

      Yes, we used to sing a lovely song about that in Hebrew School. I still remember the words, most of them:

      “I’m gonna to wear a diadem (oh yes),
      in the new Jerusalem (oh yes).
      Gonna to walk the streets of gold (oh yes),
      in the homeland for the soul (oh yes).

      Gonna view the host in white (oh yes)
      who traveled both day and night (oh yes).
      Coming up from every nation (oh yes),
      on the way to the great coronation (oh yes).
      Coming from the north, south,
      east, and west, (oh yes),
      on the way to the land of the rest (oh yes).
      I’m gonna join the heavenly choir (oh yes),
      gonna sing and never get tired (oh yes)

      I’m gonna to sing (hallelujah)
      You know I’m gonna shout (troubles over);
      well I thank Him for all He’s done for me.”

      • Mooser on October 20, 2015, 10:24 am

        “I still remember the words, most of them:”

        I’ve completely forgotten the Hebrew words. Does anybody else remember them?

  12. mcohen. on October 18, 2015, 4:56 pm

    MHughes976
    October 18, 2015, 4:19 pm….says

    succulently put..fleshy

    i can list a number of relegions who arrived in jerusalem ……..”who were anything but indigenous, to take possession as conquerors”

    but only the jews wrote a book about it that you can buy on amazon ………..in any event white man,s numbers add up to nothing

    what is interesting is that one of the “side effects” of the i/p conflict and the support palestinians are getting in western countries,especially amongst the left wing ,is the acceptance of islam …a good example is ireland

    http://www.ibtimes.com/shamrock-crescent-islam-irelands-fastest-growing-religion-1557033

    • lyn117 on October 18, 2015, 8:41 pm

      “the jews” wrote a lot of books you can by on amazon, that doesn’t make them indigenous to Palestine/Israel.

      Much, probably most of the bible wasn’t written by Jews, it’s a collection of mythology borrowed from pre-existing religious groups. Yaweh, for example, was just one of the gods in the Canaanite pantheon.

  13. JWalters on October 18, 2015, 8:08 pm

    Goldberg’s analysis comes down to four key points.

    1. The source of the current violence is the Palestinians’ paranoia that Israel will change the status of Dome of the Rock, blocking them from praying there.

    2. The Palestinians are mistaken, showing their unreasonable paranoia.

    3. Their unreasonable paranoia is the cause of not only the current spate of violence, but all the conflicts in the entire history of this conflict.

    4. This paranoia is combined with a belief that Jews are “not entitled to national self-determination”, and that denies Jews their “national and religious rights”.

    On point 1, Goldberg omits a massive amount of historical evidence relevant to the motives of the current violence. As Phil points out in this article, aided by numerous commenters, the factual dishonesty in Goldberg’s account breathtaking.

    On point 2, the Palestinians have a massive amount of historical evidence showing they should not trust the Israelis, again all omitted by Goldberg.

    On point 3, the problems are the same as for points 1 and 2.

    On point 4, again Goldberg omits masses of relevant evidence showing this is NOT the Palestinians’ objection. Further, Goldberg implies that Jews have some sort of “national and religious right” to take over Palestinian homes and lands, even though it requires slaughtering Palestinians and driving them out at gun point. More highly relevant historical facts that Goldberg omits.

    In support of Goldberg, Josh Marshall spoke of his “love” for Israel, and the “dream” of Israel. In reality, we sometimes fall in love with a person, or an organization, who turns out to be very different from what we initially thought. Sometimes this is due to innocent oversights. Sometimes it can be due to intentional deception.

    Israel is like a lover gone berserk, turning out to be VERY different from first impressions for many. Historical evidence also shows a massively funded campaign of deception to win the love of Jews. These facts have been well-documented in articles here at Mondoweiss. The dream turns out to be a nightmare.

    Israel seems to be calling in all its chits, putting everybody on the front line in the war of ideas. But all their bogus religious claims withstand no scrutiny. The war profiteering financiers behind the scenes seem to be getting worried.

  14. wondering jew on October 18, 2015, 9:59 pm

    Regarding the current intifada: a jew kicks an Arab in the balls five times. each time the Arab does nothing. The sixth time the jew kicks the Arab in the balls, the Arab goes to the Koran and comes back and kicks the Jew in the balls. As he kicks the jew in the balls he calls him a son of a monkey and a son of a pig infidel yahud. The Jew yells, “Religious fanatic jewhater”.

    The other day there was some specificity mentioned regarding the Jewish content of Zionism, which I called unimportant, when what is important is the colonialism involved. I would add that the Mizrahi population of Jewish Israel complicates the usual colonialist paradigm.

    The reaction to stabbings in the street is bound to be ugly. The shooting of Palestinian demonstrators by Israeli soldiers in May of 2014 (and the denial of their murder by Michael Oren among others) is far more troubling to me than shooting stabbers in the street. the Palestinians want a stabbing campaign to be civilized? Is that the point? it’s part of the war: both the stabbings and the reactions and the “see: they’re shooting us when they could have arrested us?” the public relations game is part of the war and this is how the game is played, how the war is fought, but frankly, that’s just human nature. start a stabbing campaign god forbid in new york city and see how long it stays civilized. start a stabbing campaign anywhere and see how long it stays civilized.

    I wonder how much the context of Netanyahu’s speech in March and the war against Gaza last summer and the unwillingness of Israel to bring the burners of the family in Duma to justice have added to my mood.

    • Mooser on October 18, 2015, 11:20 pm

      “is far more troubling to me than shooting stabbers in the street. the Palestinians want a stabbing campaign to be civilized?”

      Has Israels decades long, illegal occupation and colonization been “civilized”? They are against all civilized norms, including the norms and laws of the body which gave Israel it’s life.

      And you want to talk about what is civilized?

      And look at the terms you are inventing: “Stabbing campaign” and “stabbers”. And of course, Israelis get to excuse murdering people in occupied territory because it is “human nature”? wow.

      You should have yourself talked out of this “mood” in no time. Just keep thinking about “the sixth time the jew kicks the Arab in the balls”. You seem to derive a great deal of comfort from that.

    • YoniFalic on October 19, 2015, 6:21 am

      In 1600s-1800s style European genocidal colonialism, European invaders destroy or drive out the natives, move in European settlers, and bring in favored or servile non-European populations. This type of colonialism characterized N. America, Latin America, South Africa, and at least partially Australia, in which initially the British underclass substituted for servile non-Europeans and which for a short time tried using Chinese miners as they were used during the US gold rush.

      Non-European Jews were never fully welcome in the Zionist colony, and Zionist leaders generally considered them to be of inferior racial stock. Zionist leaders were until 1948 somewhat in denial about the losses during the Holocaust and only began to encourage non-European Jewish immigration when they realized they didn’t have enough European Jews to hold the country that European Jews stole from the natives.

      Non-European Jews were meant to play the role of a favored or of a servile non-European population. We see such a viewpoint in early Zionist discussions of Jewish Yemeni Arabs that migrated to Palestine or were tricked into coming to Palestine according to some accounts.

      • YoniFalic on October 19, 2015, 6:40 am

        Here are some Haaretz articles on the subject.

        http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.653134

        http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.673297

        I have the impression the articles do not fully describe the depth of the bigotry of European Jews, who tended to view Jewish Arabs as another type of unhistorical people like Slavs or Romanians or as beasts as was often the traditional European Jewish view of the rural Polish or Ukrainian population.

        I don’t feel as I have anything ethnically in common with Jewish Arabs (except for Zionist indoctrination within the Israeli school system), but I see no reason for the contempt that European Jews did and still express. I saw that one commentator claimed my grandfather’s beliefs about Jews belonged to classical antisemitism. Yet my grandfather felt that European Jews, who thought they were culturally superior to Jewish Arabs, had an exaggerated view of the cultural level of Eastern European Jews. When I finally studied the real non-Zionist history of European Jews, I found that my grandfather’s beliefs were quite common among Jewish reformers of the 19th century.

      • Jon66 on October 19, 2015, 9:12 am

        Have you ever read “Our Crowd”, Steven Birmingham. It’s a fascinating study of the rise of the Jewish banking elite. It wasn’t just European vs Sephardi Jews. The Western European Jews looked down upon the Eastern European. Many of these attitudes persisted until the Holocaust. Well worth the read.

      • Mooser on October 20, 2015, 3:43 pm

        “Have you ever read “Our Crowd”, Steven Birmingham. It’s a fascinating study of the rise of the Jewish banking elite”

        “Preoccupied with gaining and holding the reader’s interest, Birmingham evinces little concern for the serious implications of his material. And he never deigns to clutter his work with any scholarly apparatus; his footnotes supply additional anecdotes or information but never documentation for his text. At times, he even forgets that he is writing a book of non-fiction. Thus he quotes conversations between the Seligman brothers in the store they set up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania in 1840; between Jacob Schiff and his son Mortimer in New York City a half-century later; and among dozens of other deceased members of “the crowd.”There are descendants of “the crowd” who even suspect Birmingham of prejudice against Jews, and charge that his book has become a source of anti-Semitism.”

      • Jon66 on October 20, 2015, 7:37 pm

        Looser,
        I didn’t know you read Commentary.
        I agree it’s imperfect as history, but the author did have access to source material.

        More from the review
        “Still, this racy account cannot be dismissed out of hand. It is more than a warmed-over version of what has previously appeared in print. Birmingham employed a researcher to dig out financial records and he himself interviewed both older and younger members of the families which comprised “the crowd.” He even succeeded in gaining access to hitherto unused family papers and unpublished autobiographies.”

        Have you read it?

      • Mooser on October 20, 2015, 10:20 pm

        “Have you read it?”

        Yes, and it helped me gain a better deeper understanding of the issues in Palestine. I’m so glad you brought it up in this thread.

  15. on October 19, 2015, 1:07 am

    Goldberg defines the problem as “the refusal to accept that Jews have an ancient connection to the land of Israel, the adherence to “a worldview that dismisses the national and religious rights of Jews.” it’s not that simple – the Palestinians know that Jews lived there 2000 years ago and that they know that Jews do think that they have religious rights and national rights in Palestine. However, the Palestinians do not believe that this ancient connection is relevant in this modern age. It happened too long ago for modern Jews to be forced on the Palestinians today. Therefore, the Palestinians ideally would like the Israelis to go away and take their national and religious rights with them. It is that simple. But the Israelis are unlikely to go away and the current status quo must be dealt with. However, the Palestinians might accept the status quo of the late 1980s that Phil describes, if the settlement issues and land swaps are worked out fairly. The good thing is that we are getting around to saying this in public. Due to disinformation jockeys like Goldberg and the disproportionately Jewish media, the real issues are never hashed out. But this is changing right now in front of our eyes.

    The US government and our population believes that truth must be covered up at all costs, yet we parade around the world acting as if Washington is the white knight for 
“bringing freedom and democracy to the world.” Similarly, Israel covers up its vicious behavior towards the Palestinians and tries to convince the world that it is all the fault of the Palestinians who are refusing the colonizer’s generous offers of thoughtful coexistence. When world leaders like Putin stand up in the UN and openly point out to the US that the “Emperor has no clothes”, then the penny will soon drop in Israel as well. This is what Phil is saying. I agree with him. Goldberg is afraid of the truth.

    “Goldberg is just doing disinformation.” You said it. That is his role. Doing disinformation for Bibi and the Israeli right-wing. But there is too much truth and reality on the internet. People are waking up to the smoke and mirrors and finding out that the politicians, government and media are less thoughtful, more stupid and more corrupt than they had anticipated. A sea change is underway. Mondoweiss is playing a very important role in this.

    • Mooser on October 20, 2015, 3:46 pm

      “However, the Palestinians do not believe that this ancient connection is relevant in this modern age.”

      Oh, neither do we, really. But since the people the Zionists really needed to convince had a 19th Century British Public School-boy’s conception of Biblical geography and history, not a Jewish one, and it worked on them.

  16. Neil Schipper on October 19, 2015, 2:47 am

    Phil Weiss:

    And they have some cause for reviling Zionism. 750,000 Palestinians were forced from their homes in 1948 ..

    They reviled Zionism sufficiently to launch a war with eliminationist intent before the naqba. You know this.

    In 1890, the House of Saud’s long-term regional rivals, the Rashidis, conquered Riyadh. Ibn Saud was 15 at the time.[12] He and his family initially took refuge with the Al Murrah, a Bedouin tribe in the southern desert of Arabia. Later, the Al Sauds moved to Qatar and stayed there for two months.[13] Their next stop was Bahrain, where they stayed briefly. Their final destination was Kuwait, where they lived for nearly a decade.[13]

    In the spring of 1901, Ibn Saud and some relatives – including a half-brother, Mohammed, and several cousins – set out on a raiding expedition into the Najd, targeting for the most part tribes associated with the Rashidis. As the raid proved profitable, it attracted more participants.

    ..

    While observing Ramadan, he decided to attack Riyadh and retake it from the Al Rashidi. On the night of 15 January 1902, he led 40 men over the walls of the city on tilted palm trees and took the city.[13] The Rashidi governor of the city, Ajlan, was killed in front of his own fortress.

    ..

    On 15 June 1904, Ibn Saud’s forces suffered a major defeat at the hands of the combined Ottoman and Rashidi forces. His forces regrouped and began to wage guerrilla warfare against the Ottomans. Over the next two years he was able to disrupt their supply routes, forcing them to retreat.

    He completed his conquest of the Najd and the eastern coast of Arabia in 1912. He then founded the Ikhwan, a military-religious brotherhood which was to assist in his later conquests, with the approval of local Salafi ulema.

    During World War I, the British government established diplomatic relations with Ibn Saud. .. diplomatic missions were established with any Arabian power who might have been able to unify and stabilize the region. The British entered into a treaty in December 1915 (the “Treaty of Darin”) which made the lands of the House of Saud a British protectorate and attempted to define the boundaries of the developing Saudi state. In exchange, Ibn Saud pledged to again make war against Ibn Rashid, who was an ally of the Ottomans.

    After Darin, he stockpiled the weapons and supplies which the British provided him .. After World War I, he received further support from the British, including a glut of surplus munitions. He launched his campaign against the Al Rashidi in 1920; by 1922 they had been all but destroyed.

    The defeat of the Al Rashidi doubled the size of Saudi territory .. negotiated a new and more favorable treaty with the British ..

    In 1925, the forces of Ibn Saud captured the holy city of Mecca from Sharif Hussein, ending 700 years of Hashemite rule.

    By 1928, his forces had overrun most of the central Arabian Peninsula.

    ..

    With the uprising and subsequent decimation thereafter of the Ikhwan in 1929 via British air power, the 1930s marked a turning point. With his rivals eliminated, Ibn Saud’s ideology was in full force, ending nearly 1400 years of accepted religious practices surrounding the Hajj [annual Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca], the majority of which were sanctioned by a millennia of scholarship.

    Source

    Indigenous populations, conquering, getting conquered. Dealmaking with powerful foreign empires, Muslim and Christian. Blood in the sand. Opportunistic theological reinterpretations.

    Hard land, hard times, hard men.

    Meanwhile, a few hundred miles to the northwest, thousands of Jews worked purchased land.. draining, tilling, planting.. building homes and barns.. sometimes fending off bandits. These Jewish men and women also became hardened.

    Shall we vilify them all? We at our keyboards, in faraway prosperous lands?

    • annie on October 19, 2015, 8:09 am

      zzzzzz

    • diasp0ra on October 19, 2015, 9:00 am

      Wut.

      Where is your argument here? That because the Saudis had a power struggle with their rivals Zionism is okay? What is your reasoning?

      The land purchased by Zionists btw was barely even 6 percent in different non-contiguous patches all over Palestine. Are you trying to imply that the Zionists purchased their place in Palestine? Because they formed no strong majority either in population or land ownership in any single district.

      http://i.imgur.com/WhnU6nT.jpg

      Do you think our problems with Zionism began at the Nakba? The ethnic cleansing of Palestinians began before that. Zionist exclusionary and exclusivist claims came before that. They were colonizers from the very beginning. Hell, they even had a “Palestine Jewish Colonization Association” and a “Jewish Colonial Trust” to facilitate this.

      How can you claim with any shred of intellectual honesty that these were just poor people who wanted to till their lands and live in peace? When the very tenets of Zionism called for the removal of the natives?

      Oh we “”””launched””””” a war with “eliminationist intent” what a bunch of empty propaganda. Do you even know how many massacres had occurred before the Arab armies actually entered the fray? The ethnic cleansing was well underway before any Arab soldier’s boots hit the ground. And not only that, they never entered the territories designated as the Jewish state by the partition plan, they only entered the area designated as the Arab state. That there was any fighting whatsoever is an indication that Zionists were the ones invading other territories with expansionist colonial intent.

      Furthermore, the whole “war” of 1948 was a phony war. Not even a real one. Even Glubb Pasha, the commander of the Arab forces commented on this. The Jordanians, who were responsible for the war effort had already made a secret deal with Israel: They keep what we call today the West Bank and Israel can have the rest.

      Even Benny Morris acknowledges this. This information is out in the open.

      https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CC7381HrLqcC&pg=PA287&hl=en#v=onepage&q=phony%20war&f=false

      So please spare me your false historical equivalences to somehow justify colonialism in 2015. It’s 2015. How can people like you still exist. How.

      • Neil Schipper on October 19, 2015, 11:51 am

        Possibly, Annie recognizes the intent of my comment. If I made the argument straight on, rather than sideways, that would transgress taboos this site strenuously maintains.

        diasp0ra, you certainly aren’t seeing it. (And you stuffed a thousand words in my mouth that aren’t there.)

        I’m familiar with your talking points.

      • annie on October 19, 2015, 12:21 pm

        Possibly, Annie recognizes the intent of my comment

        are you nuts? almost 12 paragraphs about SA and then this so called ‘analysis’ ?

        “Muslim and Christian. Blood in the sand.”

        vs

        “Jews worked purchased land.. draining, tilling, planting.. building homes and barns”

        ?

        seriously neil is this a joke? and what’s this THOUSANDS of jews purchase an itty bit miniscule percenage (6%) of palestine? so friggin what?

      • Mooser on October 19, 2015, 12:43 pm

        “If I made the argument straight on, rather than sideways, that would transgress taboos this site strenuously maintains.”

        Oh, don’t be shy! Have you tried? Please “make the argument straight on”. C’mon, shoot it in on the sly, and maybe it’ll slip past the Mods.

        Why, I bet you could get it down to two or three sentences. Give it a try.

      • diasp0ra on October 19, 2015, 12:49 pm

        @Neil

        You’re not exactly being subtle. Your implied points are clear.

    • Mooser on October 19, 2015, 11:56 am

      “These Jewish men and women also became hardened.”

      Neil, if you hurry, I think the “Hectoring Zionist Wanna-be Archaeologists” thread is still open.
      But, as Annie said, don’t expect comments on that subject to be approved quickly. But, please, keep it up til then.

    • Keith on October 19, 2015, 6:15 pm

      NEIL SCHIPPER- “Meanwhile, a few hundred miles to the northwest, thousands of Jews worked purchased land.. draining, tilling, planting.. building homes and barns….”

      Well, I guess we should give the Zionists credit for getting at least a few Jews out of the cities and towns and out working the land, something which hadn’t occurred for a millennium. A quote from Israel Shahak to make a point.

      ” Everywhere, classical Judaism developed hatred and contempt for for agriculture as an occupation and for peasants as a class, even more than for other Gentiles- a hatred of which I know no parallel in other societies. This is immediately apparent to anyone who is familiar with the Yiddish or Hebrew literature of the 19th and 20th centuries.” (p52, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion,” Israel Shahak)

      • Mooser on October 20, 2015, 10:29 pm

        “Well, I guess we should give the Zionists credit for getting at least a few Jews out of the cities and towns and out working the land, something which hadn’t occurred for a millennium.”

        There are, and where, plenty of Jewish farmers. Around here, too. Some of the best, too. To say anything else is a bud libel!

    • RoHa on October 19, 2015, 7:27 pm

      I’ll complete that for you.

      “Jews worked purchased land.” drove off the tenant farmers, ” draining, tilling, planting” building homes and barns. ” and later just stealing them.

      “Shall we vilify them all?”

      Why not?

    • talknic on October 19, 2015, 10:11 pm

      @ Neil Schipper

      Historically interesting. But completely irrelevant to the LEGAL status of Israel (1948) under International Law (1945) and the UN Charter (1945)

      “Meanwhile, a few hundred miles to the northwest, thousands of Jews worked purchased land.. “

      They purchased real estate with repayable loans from the Zionist Colonization project.

      Meanwhile, real estate is not territory. Israel paid absolutely NOTHING for its self proclaimed and internationally recognized territory and it has paid nothing for the territory it has since illegally claimed and illegally acquired.

  17. Stephen Shenfield on October 19, 2015, 5:31 am

    When Goldberg dismisses the idea that Zionism is a form of European colonialism he reveals his abysmal ignorance of the history of the Zionist movement, because until colonialism lost its legitimacy after World War Two the Zionists themselves always represented themselves as European colonial settlers. They assumed there was nothing wrong with that. They sold Zionism to the European colonial powers on precisely that basis — look how useful we can be to you as a bulwark of European civilization against Asiatic barbarism!

    • talknic on October 19, 2015, 5:56 am

      The Jewish Colonial Trust got its name from some notion

      Lemme see now ….

      The purposes of the trust were described as the economic development and strengthening of the Jewish colonies in Palestine and Syria, the purchase of land for new settlements on a “publicly and legally recognized” basis, the development of trade, industry, and commerce in the colonies, the loaning of money on bond and mortgage and the making of advances for colonization, and the establishment of savings-banks or banking-offices in the colonies.

      Now are we missing anything?

      Hope the source isn’t too Anti-semitic

      • Keith on October 21, 2015, 12:01 am

        TALKNIC- “Hope the source isn’t too Anti-semitic”

        Of course it is! You are taking a comment that was meant to be shared by Jews behind closed doors and broadcasting it to the Goyim! What is more anti-Semitic than that?

  18. Ossinev on October 19, 2015, 6:35 am

    By way of an illustration of the the importance of the Bible as a legal anchor to Jewish claims to Palestine:

    On her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant
    Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus
    18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.

    The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, written by a
    U.S. man, and posted on the Internet. It’s funny, as well as informative:

    Dear Dr. Laura:

    Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I
    have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that
    knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend
    the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that
    Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination … End of debate.

    I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements
    of God’s Laws and how to follow them.

    1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and
    female, provided they are from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine
    claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians.
    Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

    2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
    Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair
    price for her?

    3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
    her period of Menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is
    how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

    4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
    pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my
    neighbours…..They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I
    smite them?

    5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
    35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally
    obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

    6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
    abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than
    homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there
    ‘degrees’ of abomination?

    7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
    have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
    glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room
    here?

    8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
    around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.
    19:27. How should they die?

    9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes
    me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

    10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two
    different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
    garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend).
    He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary
    that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to
    stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a
    private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their
    in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)I know you have studied these things extensively
    and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I’m confident you can help.
    Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.

    Your adoring fan,
    James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, Dept. Of Curriculum,
    Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia
    P.S. It would be a damn shame if we couldn’t own a Canadian.

    • bryan on October 19, 2015, 9:57 am

      Thanks for sharing Ossinev – that’s hilarious.

      I read somewhere that even college text-book across a wide range of subjects become so quickly outdated that they need to be rewritten every three years. I know that ancient scribes often used to introduce perceived improvements when they were transcribing ancient manuscripts, though sometimes they were merely censoring points of view that conflicted with recent orthodoxy. I know that Jefferson managed to reduce the New Testament to 46 pages by removing anachronous superstitions, miracles and references to th divinity of Jesus. It would be fascinating to compare a complete Bible written today applying the latest understanding of archaeology, ancient history, science, astronomy, ethics and philosophy with the original version. I am sure it would be a good short read, and would be very refreshing to those of us alienated by the obvious nonsense contained in the original version. Does anyone know if this has been attempted?

      • RoHa on October 19, 2015, 7:33 pm

        “I read somewhere that even college text-book across a wide range of subjects become so quickly outdated that they need to be rewritten every three years. ”

        That’s what they tell you. Actually, it’s to make the students buy the new edition instead of buying a second-hand copy. More dosh for author and publisher.

    • YoniFalic on October 19, 2015, 11:17 am

      Just a comment on reading the Bible that was made by a professor in a class I took at Columbia. (The professor claimed Modern Israeli Hebrew speakers rarely understand the Hebrew Bible.)

      Here is the Aleppo Codex (gold standard for Hebrew Bible texts) for Leviticus 25:44.

      מד ועבדך ואמתך אשר יהיו לך מאת הגוים אשר סביבתיכם–מהם תקנו עבד ואמה

      הגוים does not obviously mean the nations in a modern sense that would include a nation-state like Canada.

      Here is the same verse from the Septuagint.

      καὶ παῖς καὶ παιδίσκη ὅσοι ἂν γένωνταί σοι ἀπὸ τῶν ἐθνῶν ὅσοι κύκλῳ σού εἰσιν ἀπ᾽ αὐτῶν κτήσεσθε δοῦλον καὶ δούλην

      הגוים is rendered τῶν ἐθνῶν.

      The Greek phrase is probably closer to “the ethnic groups”. In the ancient world ἐθνος was almost never congruent with a state organization.

      Here is the Vulgate rendering.

      44 servus et ancilla sint vobis de nationibus quae in circuitu vestro sunt

      That text uses nationibus, but nation in English is a faux ami of natio in Latin.

      Latin seems to use natio to mean something like birth group, which is comparable to ancient Greek ἐθνος.

      http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Dnatio

      • Mooser on October 20, 2015, 10:18 am

        Yoni, give it up. You are simply trying to obscure the fact that you cannot tell me what “diddy-wah-diddy” means.

      • Mooser on October 20, 2015, 11:48 am

        I apologize and retract, Yoni. I hadn’t had any coffee, and I was up all night worrying about it.
        Upon reflection, I see that you probably could tell me, if you wanted to, but would I understand it? Probably not, there’s the problem.

    • RoHa on October 19, 2015, 7:30 pm

      “Why can’t I own Canadians?”

      Would you really want to? Mexicans work harder and are much more fun.

      • oldgeezer on October 19, 2015, 11:08 pm

        @RoHa

        Clearly you have never partied with an Atlantic Canadian. We might surprise you!

      • RoHa on October 20, 2015, 2:50 am

        Maybe. But how many Canadian restaurants are there? Probably as many as Australian restaurants.

        And your national symbol does not inspire confidence.

        Ours is the Red Kangaroo.

        This is a tough animal.

        Their top speed is over 65km/h (faster than most racehorses) and they can jump 3m high and nearly 8m long.

        Females can determine the sex of their offspring, and can delay gestation in case of drought or similar poor conditions.

        Males grow up to 2m tall and weigh up to 95 kilos. They have powerful chest and arm muscles, and will, if they have to, grab a dingo – or a human – and hold him up while they balance on their tails and rip the guts out with the huge claws on their hind legs. If there is a river around, they will hold the dingo underwater until it drowns.

        The Canadian national symbol is a leaf.

      • eljay on October 20, 2015, 9:05 am

        So…Australia is violent and deadly, while Canada is gentle and colourful. I’ll buy that. :-)

        And I’d rather jump into a fresh pile of leaves than a fresh pile of kangaroo any day.

        Eh? :-P

      • Mooser on October 20, 2015, 10:21 am

        ROTFLMSJAO! “RoHa” when they start sending good chiva from Vancouver instead of Mexico I’ll like Canadians more.

      • Walid on October 20, 2015, 11:12 am

        “The Canadian national symbol is a leaf.” (RoHa)

        RoHa, the Canadian national symbol or official emblem is the beaver; it goes back to the Hudson’s Bay Company that was set up in 1670 to trade in beaver pelts.

        The leaf that intrigued you on the flag is that of the maple, one of Canada’s predominant hardwood trees. In 1965 after 34 years of objections by diehard British loyalists, the maple leaf flag finally replaced the Union Jack. Canada had been independent of the UK since 1931 with the Statute of Westminster same as were Australia, South Africa, Newfoundland and a few other countries.

        But in 2015, 84 years after Westminster the colonial Union Jack still forms part of the Australian flag, not the kangaroo.

      • Walid on October 20, 2015, 11:29 am

        “Clearly you have never partied with an Atlantic Canadian.” (OG)

        I’ll second that from firsthand experience. They are easy- going and fun. RoHa probably encountered some rednecks from the west to have such an opinion.

      • Mooser on October 20, 2015, 12:47 pm

        “In 1965 after 34 years of objections by diehard British loyalists, the maple leaf flag finally replaced the Union Jack.”

        And you are usually so accurate, too. Everybody knows the “Maple Leaf” was placed on the Canadian flag in honor of this composition.. I mean, what else could it be?

      • Walid on October 20, 2015, 3:11 pm

        “I mean, what else could it be?” (Mooser)

        Mooser, maybe it’s inspired by the fantastic maple syrup that’s produced there.

      • Mooser on October 20, 2015, 3:54 pm

        “Mooser, maybe it’s inspired by the fantastic maple syrup that’s produced there.”

        Mmmmmmmm, maple syrup!

      • RoHa on October 20, 2015, 7:31 pm

        “RoHa, the Canadian national symbol or official emblem is the beaver”

        Look at the roundels on RAAF and RCAF planes.

      • RoHa on October 20, 2015, 7:32 pm

        “They are easy- going and fun.”

        I’ll take your word for it. All Canadians are fun to tease.

      • oldgeezer on October 21, 2015, 10:54 am
  19. James Canning on October 19, 2015, 2:00 pm

    All Arab countries have agreed to accept Israel within its 1967 borders. Israel itself is the primary problem, in not accepting this outcome.

  20. TRG-42 on October 21, 2015, 10:13 am

    Hasbarat mumbling BS.

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