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Seachange in public opinion: ‘I am tired of Israel using US-made rockets to bomb Palestinians so that ultra-conservatives can steal their land’

If you doubt that we are in the forefront of a growing movement to support human rights for Palestinians, then you have not read readers’ comments on an article in the New York Times yesterday on the move by the European Union to label imports from the occupied Palestine as “settlement goods.”

Even as Times editors sought to brand the move as anti-Semitic, Times readers overwhelmingly applauded the move and decried Israeli policies. Many called the settlements by their correct name, colonies. Many mentioned anti-Palestinian discrimination. And many said they used to support Israel but have been disgusted by Israel’s landgrabbing and its killing of Palestinians. It was not till the 13th comment that you found one that was supportive of Israel.

Here are extended excerpts of the first ten to convey the thoughtfulness and verbal powers of these writers:

David in Wisconsin:

The fact that this is even an issue is ridiculous. I, along with many consumers (if not most) want to know where the products I purchase originate from. For example, I prefer to purchase U.S. made products over Chinese. And since the occupied West Bank, Golan, and East Jerusalem are not internationally recognized to be Israeli land, why in the world should any country allow Israel to put made in Israel on these products. I would be equally deceptive if products made by a U.S. company in China were labeled “made in the U.S.”

DrSpock in NY:

This modest step by the EU allows for its citizens to engage in a simple, nonviolent protest of the policies of annexation and ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. It’s more than ironic that these policies of annexation are openly discussed in the israeli press, but the the US the reaction of surprise and denial. But this is what some of our six billion dollars a year in direct aid is going toward. The West Bank is today an Israeli colony that is rapidly being absorbed into the state of Israel. But to carry out this appropriation Palestinians are being expelled and herded into increasing smaller ghettos ringed by jewish only freeways and military checkpoints.

Allowing consumers to decide whether to support those policies with their purchasing power is a simple measure that is long overdue. Discrimination? Of course, but we all should be discriminating buyers. This is true of those who refuse to buy fur, those who refuse to buy clothing made under slave labor conditions and those who may decide not to buy products made from an area under military occupation in violation of international law.

On the other side, the fair trade movement supports products made under conditions that honor human rights. Israel has every opportunity to move to that side of the international trade equation when they recognize an independent Palestinian state and engage in mutually beneficial commerce between the two states and in their commerce with the rest of the world.

JRMW in Minneapolis:

The Israeli govenment does not seem to understand the massive damage the Settlements have done to Israel.
I believe the Settlements are the #1 security risk to all of Israel.

Prior to the Settlement expansion. I was Pro-Israel 100%
I had no problem supporting Israel to defend itself against hostile Middle Eastern neighbors.

With Netanyahu’s massive Settlement Expansion, they lost me. I also know they have lost many people like me (Pro-Israel Liberals)

I still support Israeli Jews and want to keep them safe, but no longer support Netanyahu or his government.
I have much more sympathy for the Palestinians and their plight.
And I oppose the Settlers 100%.

I no longer wish to be involved in Israel or Palestine. I do not want my tax dollars used to arm Israel. I do not want my consumer dollars used to purchase Settlement products…
But I am tired of seeing Israel use American made rockets to bomb Palestinian Citizens so that Ultra Conservatives can steal their land

tiddle in New York:

As a largely disinterested layman to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I find the arguments from Israel fairly weak.

Chris in Mexico:

What Israel is doing in the Occupied Territories is pure and simple colonialism. It is an unambiguous violation of international law, the result of which resembles nothing so much as apartheid. The predictable accusations of anti-Semitism are an insult to everyone, not least the victims of real anti-Semitism.

It is too late for a two state solution. The settlements have rendered a viable separate Palestinian state an impossibility. What measures like this and the more forceful ones demanded by the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) campaign can achieve is a single state with full and equal citizenship rights for both Jews and Palestinians. It won’t happen without a struggle, but there is no humane and democratic alternative.

Wrighter in Brooklyn:

If Israel is worried about people not buying their products once they learn of their origin perhaps they should change their policies to alter public perception and if not, deal with the consequences like every single other nation or company in the world

N Smith in New York:

It is amazing how quickly Israel claims ‘discrimination’; for a nation that practices it so freely.

Again, it wasn’t till the 13th comment that you saw a peep out of Israel supporters, someone saying that East Jerusalem is not occupied. And right after that came this hammer blow from JK in Jericho, Vermont:

The Palestinians live [in] an ever growing large concentration camp. Palestinians have lived in this area for thousands of years. What nonsense to believe that somehow the Jews have a god-given right to seize their land, tear up their deeds, destroy their orchards, and build every growing Israeli settlements in their lands. I have always respected the history and struggles of the Jews; but they have done unto others what was done to them. What a tragedy! The Israeli government has thrown away the moral high ground.

Hasbara Central must be getting overwhelmed by the flood of critical sentiment; you can see from even the Times editors’ picks of the best comment that it is unable to respond to this outpouring, when years ago an article of this ilk would have been swamped by Israel-flag-waving letter-writers and commenters.

This shift in public opinion is why Israel’s former ambassador Michael Oren tweeted two days ago:

I predict that, without a diplomat horizon, historians may someday write about how Israel lost its Jewish and democratic character.

This shift is why Anne-Marie Slaughter told Hillary Clinton four years ago that Palestinian solidarity will “grow and grow… and be impossible to stop.”

These attitudes are sure to be reflected before long by mainstream commentators and politicians.

James North and Philip Weiss

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61 Responses

  1. Boomer on November 12, 2015, 2:04 pm

    I wonder how much of the change is in public opinion, and how much is NYT allowing it to be known via comments. Either way, it’s encouraging. As long as B.O. intones “Israel has a right to defend itself” and does nothing, public opinion won’t matter . . . but we saw with same-sex marriage how quickly B.O. can flip to conform to public opinion.

    • Eva Smagacz on November 12, 2015, 2:26 pm

      I agree Boomer, it is change that reaches tipping point. Recent poll of British Jews indicates that only 59 percent of them consider themselves Zionist.

    • Scott on November 12, 2015, 2:31 pm

      A lot of it is change. How many people who comment here would been interested or knowledgeable enough fifteen years ago? Or twenty? Not me, certainly, though I was an educated, politically engaged person.

      • JWalters on November 13, 2015, 6:15 pm

        The power of Israel over the mainstream press, pure and simple. Money controls, especially vast war profits.

      • SeekerJBP on November 13, 2015, 9:54 pm

        (to JWalters) No, don’t blame the press or the war engines or the guns. They exist because of us, and for us (or those that came before us). It is up to us that want change to find the way to do it that will last over time. To find the truth and make the change.

        Not easy… but nothing of lasting value ever is. Blame is easy and takes less than a second. Truth is slower to be accepted, but it is always known even by those that deny it.

      • Mooser on November 14, 2015, 4:41 pm

        “Not easy… but nothing of lasting value ever is.”

        That’s patently absurd. There are probably fifty things Israel could easily and quickly do, to merely ameliorate its intransigence and illegalities, any of which would be welcomed by Palestinians.

      • SeekerJBP on November 14, 2015, 6:20 pm

        But they won’t. We know that. The way things are, they have no need to. That is why it is not going to be easy.

    • Boo on November 13, 2015, 10:38 am

      Your point re NYT’s curating of its comments sections is, of course, well taken. The Washington Post, my “hometown” rag, is much more lightly moderated. And the comments sections on its I/P-related issues and (especially) op-eds are trending the exact same way as this NYT piece illustrates.

      WaPo comments tend to be briefer and less closely argued. As well, because of light moderation they garner their share of kooks, demagogues and hasbaristas. But these days they’re running about four- or five-to-one anti-Israeli Government/IDF policies and actions. This has been a slow change over the past 4-5 years, and I believe a tipping point was reached with Operation Protective Edge, such that the change in the last year has been very pronounced and obvious.

      One more current data point, coming from a qualitatively different forum than the NYT, but unquestionably backing up the observations made in this article.

  2. sawah on November 12, 2015, 3:10 pm

    Thanks for your upbeat article. After reading Kerry’s speech today I was quite low.
    http://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2015/11/249417.htm

    “These attitudes are sure to be reflected before long by mainstream commentators and politicians.”

    I do hope people read the comments. Of course one has to be an online reader
    (and a reader of the New York Times) to benefit from this information …Look at Fox news and what a good chunk of America is told regarding this conflict. It is going to take more than Alison Weir to invade that space to reach some of these people…
    Editors need to change or the politicians and commentators are ‘not going there’…… thank you, Mondoweiss for efforts in that regard.

  3. amigo on November 12, 2015, 4:02 pm

    It would appear that the EU officials are tired of being called Jew haters and planning another Holocaust by people who are committing war crimes on an hourly basis.They are probably also fed up being called on the zionist carpet and lectured by these same war criminals so it is time for a little push back.

    We will see just how little concept of the art of diplomacy exists in the ziosphere as they ramp up the insults and vitriol .

    It,s been a long time coming and is none to soon.

    Ireland was not one of the three EU nations already on board with this program so lets hope our pols can grow some test-ickles and do what most of their constituents want of them.

    Don,t imagine the hasbara brigade will be here in big numbers today.Busy reading instructions from hasbara central who themselves are all in a tizzy .

    It,s getting tougher and tougher to be a zionist these days.

    • Ellen on November 13, 2015, 5:35 am

      The Hasbara brigade came out last night, in force and all with the same line in a different dress: that Israel is being singled out (not true) and that Europeans “hate Jews.” It is all so pathetic.

      This comment starts the stream of dishonest whining:

      Stuart Wilder Doylestown, PA 1 day ago
      If the E.U.’s concern about human rights also resulted in the labelling of products resulting from child labor in China, from Ukrainian and Georgian territories occupied by Russia, to products for countries that ban Christianity, persecute Christians, and prosecute them for practicing their religion, and countries that tolerate slavery and ban women for having the barest of human rights (a group that include the countries from which the E.U. gets most of its oil) I would think this is something other than just another expression of singling out Jews for hate. The E.U. singles out Israel though, so it is impossible to see this as yet another atavistic expression of European fear and hatred of Jews, a 2,000 year old tradition.”

      There are other comments claiming products from Cyprus and the Ukraine are not labeled as such. They are, indeed, and always have been.

      Just as products made in China, etc. and consumers are allowed to make choices without deception. Why should Israel be allowed to falsely label goods?

      The US and Israel import energy from Middle East states set up by the British, based on drilling concessions. Israel, like the KSA and Qatar have little freedom of movement for workers on visas and limited civil rights. This is endemic to the Middle East , including Israel.

      Same ‘ole, same ‘ole….look over there! Everyone hates us…..blah blah. It is all so tiring and dishonest.

      • WH on November 13, 2015, 11:56 am

        ‘If the E.U.’s concern about human rights also resulted in the labelling of products resulting from child labor in China, from Ukrainian and Georgian territories occupied by Russia, to products for countries that ban Christianity, persecute Christians, and prosecute them for practicing their religion, and countries that tolerate slavery and ban women for having the barest of human rights (a group that include the countries from which the E.U. gets most of its oil) I would think this is something other than just another expression of singling out Jews for hate.’

        What a laughable comment – all of those countries’ names are on the corresponding labels! If consumers want to boycott China they can, because it says so on the label, so Israel is only being ‘singled out’ if it gets to AVOID putting a truthful name on a label. It shows that they realise the illegitimacy of their own settlement enterprise – they claim they are being condemned by the label, which means the bare fact of the products’ origin is a condemnation in itself.

  4. Kay24 on November 12, 2015, 4:38 pm

    These comments are so well written and very interesting. It shows many informed readers out there, who are not duped by the propaganda in the US, and have their finger on the pulse of this very volatile situation. I do hope this is a sign of the shift we look forward to happening, for politicians and others who have disappointed us, by consistently siding with the oppressor, and overlooking it’s endless brutality and crimes, that are always condemned by the rest of the world.

    The NYT will hopefully continue to publicize these comments, and not continue to act as a zionist mouthpiece. Hasbara Comedy Central must be working overtime after that article, and it must be a feeding frenzy over there. Heh.

    • Mooser on November 12, 2015, 6:32 pm

      “These comments are so well written and very interesting.”

      I feared the Netanyahoo speech, and Jeffrey Goldberg and Josh Marshall and the flying monkeys were going to derail the discourse at least through the election. The NYTs comments are a relief to see, along with the other signs the discussion is getting back on track.

      • Kay24 on November 12, 2015, 7:08 pm

        It seems there exists a parallel world in the US, one with buffoons and gullilble minions, the other knowledgeable and realistic human beings. I hope the later wakes up soon and makes a bigger noise. :))

  5. ritzl on November 12, 2015, 5:00 pm

    Good article. Tweeted.

    But again, it’s occupied PALESTINE, not some nebulous occupied “territories” in east f’ing Mongolia.

    You all do this every time. Why do you CHOOSE to diminish Palestine and Palestinians while ostensibly seeking to help it/them? If you can’t even bring yourselves to name the country being occupied (or choose to use Israeli terms of diminishment) how can you expect to be seen as sincere?

    As I’ve said before, it IS a big thing. Naming something gives it power.

    PALESTINE! Dammit.

    • amigo on November 12, 2015, 5:42 pm

      ritzl , “You all do this every time.”

      Not so. I checked back some 3 weeks in my archives and found only one reference to Occupied territories but in my defence , I wrote , “Occupied Palestinian Territories” .

      I recall , your last mention of this and have tried to concur.Recall , I told you how long it took to replace the old zionist claim of “disputed territories” with Occupied territories and those of us who observed the , (mostly) disappearance of that term viewed it as a victory.

      But I will now replace Occupied Palestinian Territories with , “Occupied Palestine”.

      Okey , dokey.

      • ritzl on November 13, 2015, 3:49 pm

        Sorry amigo. Was aiming at the authors. These North/Weiss NYT critiques always seem to use “territories” for some reason.

        Most folks that comment here are pretty sensitive to the terminology imo.

        My bad for being non-specific.

        PS. Looks like it was changed. Thanks.

  6. Kay24 on November 12, 2015, 5:09 pm

    “I predict that, without a diplomat horizon, historians may someday write about how Israel lost its Jewish and democratic character.” M. Oren

    Too late buddy. You enabled Israel by protecting it’s continuous war crimes, and they lost that character you speak about long ago. Israel is now considered a rogue nation, out of control, and using it’s “Jewish characteristics” to justify it’s crimes.

    • Doubtom on November 14, 2015, 5:09 pm

      “Rogue nation” is a most apt characterization for Israel, I use it as often as possible when commenting on it’s many criminal cations.

  7. yourstruly on November 12, 2015, 9:35 pm

    Once again,

    One is either on the side of the slave or the slave-owner

    Palestinians are slaves by dint of their homeland, Palestine, being occupied by European Jews

    Occupying another people’s land is to enslave them

    And since none of us will be free until the last chain is broken

    on whose side am I, are you, are we?

    • SQ Debris on November 12, 2015, 10:31 pm

      Right on YT. It is worth remembering that, in the context of the enslavement of the Palestinian people, the proportion of Americans who were abolitionists was quite small. But they raised enough ruckus to turn the nation. Those who want to end the current horror can take lessons from that struggle. It took generations, but prevailed.

  8. niass2 on November 12, 2015, 9:50 pm

    What/ Anyways I as an american Jew, I, Love Zionists. The people on here don’t seem to, whatever, but I love Zionistas especially, The kind with long dreadlocks and several pounds of Marijuana in their backpack. Often they live in jamaica, and they do not drink alcohol. If you see one send them my way.

    • Boo on November 13, 2015, 10:46 am

      That is the spiritual Mount Zion, as Culture sings:

      “Cannot go to Zion with your force
      Have manners and enter in Jah house.
      You cannot live here with your big gun!
      All you got to do is help me pray
      Let’s kneel on our knees and clasp our hands
      And say: “Father, please help me”
      A slice of Mount Zion is for I.”

  9. echinococcus on November 12, 2015, 10:10 pm

    Wondering why the stupid opinion of a no less stupid public would even deserve a mention here, i.e. that sovereignty theft by “ultra-conservatives” should be repellent while the same as perpetrated by Laborista criminals or plain-conservative criminals are kosher. That is what the obviously Zionist title sentence affirms, at the very least.

  10. Kathleen on November 12, 2015, 10:10 pm

    James, Annie, Phil, Max so hoping you MW folks go read the piece about the Obama/BB dysfunctional relationship.

    The paragraph about the Israeli massacre of activist on the Mavi Marmara is especially inaccurate and horrendous. Describing the activist on the boat as attacking first. I have read the UN Mavi Marmara report and heard statements from those on the boat including Ambassador Peck. People on the boat said that Israeli soldiers were firing live rounds as they descended onto the boat carrying weapons. In the UN report they describe in detail many of the activist being shot in the back of the head at close range by Israeli soldiers.

    In the piece “Bibi and Barack:Scenes From a Failed Marriage” the writers description of the attack on the flotilla is absurd. Do these people read?

    “When the ships were stopped by the Israeli Navy, activist violently attacked Israeli soldiers with knives and bats. The soldiers then pulled their guns killing nine activist”

    Jesus all you have to do is read the UN report. Activist shot in the back of their heads multiple times from close range. Read the report. These activist were massacred by the Israeli soldiers. Hope you folks have something to say about this very serious inaccuracy.

  11. James North on November 12, 2015, 10:15 pm

    Where’s hophmi? Hasbara Central is getting crushed in the NYTimes comment sections, and he’s hiding.

    • RoHa on November 13, 2015, 12:26 am

      I don’t think he is hiding. He is probably busy gathering together all the arguments for Jewish self-determination rights, so that I can see that he has devastating responses to my arguments against it.

      I am waiting to be humbled.

    • Kay24 on November 13, 2015, 7:00 am

      3 possibilities:

      1. Hoppy is finding it extremely difficult to defend the indefensible, and these questions are making him/her stressed out.

      2. Hoppy is desperately calling for reinforcements. The present batch are juniors and are not
      making any headway.

      3. Hoppy has decided to leave the dark side. The brilliant comments here made him see the light.

      Heh.

    • Mooser on November 13, 2015, 12:33 pm

      “Where’s hophmi? Hasbara Central is getting crushed in the NYTimes comment sections, and he’s hiding.”

      Hey, “Hophmi” is a busy guy! Consider the demands on his time:

      “I am on the board of a new organization called the Jewish-Muslim Volunteer Alliance, which does joint Jewish-Muslim volunteering and holds an annual Iftar dinner each year, and I also sit on the board of an institute within the American Jewish Committee that does Muslim-Jewish outreach,” “Hophmi”- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/hophmi?keyword=board#sthash.DtavbXNA.dpuf

      He only comes here to blow off steam after all that out-reaching.

      • Bumblebye on November 13, 2015, 1:48 pm

        Oooh boy! It would break a million rules, but if you saw what I saw there would be gales of laughter, you’d be sliding down the wall at his latest! And then that laughter would bubble up again hours later at the poetic justice! Such a darn pity….

  12. inbound39 on November 12, 2015, 10:16 pm

    What a good read….loved everyones input. It strikes me that America would most definitely and never did to my knowledge ever allow Saddam Hussein the right to address Congress nor was he ever allowed to speak to media or get viewed in such a supportive light by American Media Outlets yet Netanyahu who by comparison is similar if not the same as Saddam Hussein is treated like the Queen of England…..in fact better than the Queen of England. Disputed Territories? That was always a non started from the time Lord Caradon et al drafted Resolution 242. International Law is quoted specifically. We remind Israel that the acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible and that Israel is required to withdraw fully from territory recently Occupied. Israel played semantics with that stating it did not say all the territory….lmao. What other territory did they recently occupy or occupy illegally full stop? They cannot claim territory as theirs outside their declared borders which they clearly informed the UN prior was not theirs.Palestine always existed and as much as Israel likes to depend on the British Mandate of Palestine as its defence, that document became null and void once it accepted the Partition Plan and once the British Mandate ended. Under the Mandate they were only ever allowed a homeland within Palestine….they were never granted ALL of Palestine. Israel STILL has a requirement and an obligation to comply with Resolution 242. It is International Law and binding.

    • ritzl on November 13, 2015, 4:14 pm

      That whole “the territory” in the French-language version v. the nebulous-by-design “territory” in the English-language version process of drafting 242 is fascinating.

      Iirc the Indian ambassador to the UN at the time said that discrepancy was deliberate to provide just the ambiguity you mention – in English where it mattered in the US.

      I believe the French version still says “the territory”, meaning all of it.

      I’ll try to find a link.

    • talknic on November 13, 2015, 7:04 pm

      ” Resolution 242. It is International Law and binding.”

      Not quite. UNSC resolutions are specific to events between specific parties.

      Whereas, the Laws and UN Charter principals re-affirmed and emphasized in UNSC or any other UN resolutions are binding and remain in force until they are rescinded, they apply before, during and after specific events are over

      UNSC res 242 was a reminder to the UN Member states involved of binding Law and their legal obligations. BTW There was no requirement to negotiate any borders in UNSC res 242. The UN Members it concerned already had recognized borders http://wp.me/PDB7k-6r#unscresolution242

      Subsequent UNSC resolutions show clearly what was meant by UNSC res 242. Ditto the two Peace treaties ( with Egypt & Jordan ) Negotiations were not over borders, but how to achieve peace through withdrawal to the existing recognized borders. Israel was required, agreed and withdrew from all territory sovereign to Egypt.

      UNSC res 476 for example

      1. Reaffirms the overriding necessity to end the prolonged occupation of Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem;
      2. Strongly deplores the continued refusal of Israel, the occupying Power, to comply with the relevant resolutions of the Security Council and the General Assembly;
      3. Reconfirms that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem have no legal validity and constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;
      4. Reiterates that all such measures which have altered the geographic, demographic and historical character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem are null and void and must be rescinded in compliance with the relevant resolutions of the Security Council;
      5. Urgently calls on Israel, the occupying Power, to abide by this and previous Security Council resolutions and to desist forthwith from persisting in the policy and measures affecting the character and status of the Holy city of Jerusalem;

      The arguments over ‘the’ and ‘all’ were delaying tactics. While there was no resolution Israel could continue grab as much as possible. The argument before and after the adoption of the resolution are irrelevant and ‘in other words’ likewise do not apply. Only the exact words of a resolution are the resolution.

      • Doubtom on November 14, 2015, 5:19 pm

        Kinda makes you wonder at the usefulness of the United Nations, doesn’t it? Israel has been flipping the UN the bird for as long as it has existed

      • talknic on November 16, 2015, 2:35 am

        @ Doubtom “Kinda makes you wonder at the usefulness of the United Nations, doesn’t it? “
        Don’t demolish the house because there’s a door with a broken hinge. The UN does an enormous amount of good work in many arenas.

        “Israel has been flipping the UN the bird for as long as it has existed”

        Only because it’s protected from Chapt VII action by the US UNSC veto vote.

      • echinococcus on November 16, 2015, 3:16 am

        Talknic,

        It’s much more than a broken hinge. The illegitimate partition and the illegitimate acceptance of the Zionist entity have made it useless from day one. Followed by the Korean intervention, as if to show clearly who owns the fraud.

  13. Atlantaiconoclast on November 13, 2015, 12:27 am

    I am happy to see more progressives speaking out, but won’t get too excited till Middle America feels the same way about this issue. The thing though, is that they won’t oppose Israel until they realize that Israel has not been good to America. Till you move Middle America, not much will happen policy wise.

  14. Refaat on November 13, 2015, 1:29 am

    I love Hasbara Central!
    I swear some of those trolls live off Al Jazeera comment section,

  15. amigo on November 13, 2015, 7:09 am

    Speaking of a sea change in opinion , Martin Indyk tells Israelis (Jews only -again) they should stop acting like “The Victims”.You are not he added.

    “TEL AVIV – Stop being so insecure and playing the victim, the U.S.’s former special envoy for Israeli-Palestinian negotiations practically begged a packed audience in Tel Aviv, speaking Thursday at Haaretz’s Israel Conference on Peace.
    read more: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.haaretz.com/peace/.premium-1.685792

    “Indyk argued that the right wing in Israel has “benefited greatly” from the idea that there is no partner on the other side, which makes them repeat that mantra, even when it is not true. Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas could become a partner “tomorrow” charged Indyk – if only the Israelis would freeze the settlement building and agree to move forward in good faith and with generosity.

    “The point it, and this is something which I don’t know how to communicate effectively to the Israeli public, but I will try,” said Indyk, raising his voice for emphasis: “You are not victims. You are not. You have built a beautiful country which is incredibly strong…with the backing of the most powerful country in the world. You are not victims anymore. You are players in your own fate.”

    “To allow your leaders to convince you that you are victims and have to live by the sword – is to give way to hopeless future for your people,” charged the veteran diplomat.
    read more: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.haaretz.com/peace/.premium-1.685792

    Explosive stuff.

    • Kay24 on November 13, 2015, 7:28 am

      He speaks the truth but most probably it will not sink in and there will be no change in their thinking. To be told for years they are victims, and that the world is out to get them, will prevent common sense change in their mind set. I have never heard of an occupier, land grabber, and a top arms manufacturer, being a victim of an occupied, unarmed people.

      It is insane.

    • David Doppler on November 13, 2015, 12:18 pm

      A crowd endowed with a false belief in its own victimhood and its own divinely-justified moral high ground faces a chasm of cognitive dissonance, to reverse its direction. It is not a simple walk across that chasm, but a traumatic upheaval. Martin Indyk is the voice of diplomatic reason: very few will follow him through such trauma. Netanyahu is the cheerleader for mob violence, who feeds the crowd raw meat, and draws from them his “legitimacy” (in their eyes). It takes a charismatic leader, a dispersal of the mob, the unfolding of big events that separate the false leader from the mob, to get more people on the margin to switch sides.

      But Netanyahu only has a one-seat majority. Perhaps Indyk can persuade one MK to change direction. Everything else could follow from a vote of no-confidence. Nothing will change until that happens.

      • Kris on November 13, 2015, 1:14 pm

        @David Doppler: “A crowd endowed with a false belief in its own victimhood and its own divinely-justified moral high ground faces a chasm of cognitive dissonance, to reverse its direction.

        A border official drew a penis and wrote ‘Long live Palestine’ on an Israeli man’s passport, it has been claimed.

        A picture of Tal Y’aakobi’s passport shows a drawing of a penis alongside the words ‘Viva Palestinia’ written alongside it, which translates to ‘Long live Palestine.’

        The 25-year-old, from Rosh HaAyin, Israel, claims to have received the unusual stamping from a Chilean border official after crossing the border from Argentina while travelling.

        Mr Y’aakobi told The Independent: “From the first moment, the guy at the border was hostile, and threw my passport in front of my face. They then detained us for an hour and a half on purpose until we moved.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israeli-man-claims-border-official-drew-a-penis-and-wrote-long-live-palestine-on-his-passport-a6733586.html

        So what did this Israeli think? “There was no reason to do this, only because I am Jewish.”

        Demonstrating, once again, the power of this fixed, false belief in victimhood whatever the circumstances.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius on November 13, 2015, 2:02 pm

        Indyk is no improvement on Netanyahu. He is just another ‘liberal Zionist’ who speaks politely and seems to be ‘reasonable’, but scratch the surface and you’ll find another Jewish supremacist who believes the Palestinians exist only as an inconvenience.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius on November 13, 2015, 2:06 pm

        @Kris,

        This dude should try being a Muslim – or anyone who might have visited a halal restaurant ever – turn up at Israel’s ‘border’ and see what ‘hostile’ really means.

        And btw from what I’ve heard, Israeli tourists behave obnoxiously in South America and are disliked by everyone, local and foreign alike. They are penny pinching, cliquish and aggressive. I heard from a friend who’d travelled in Peru that tourists would ask tour operators if there were going to be any Israelis on a bus tour. If the answer was ‘yes’, they would ask to travel on a different bus. Not because they are Jewish, but because they are deeply unpleasant.

      • Kay24 on November 14, 2015, 7:03 am

        MDM – “And btw from what I’ve heard, Israeli tourists behave obnoxiously in South America and are disliked by everyone, local and foreign alike. They are penny pinching, cliquish and aggressive.”

        It is such a coincidence, but my friend who works retail in Australia used the same words about their Israeli customers. She said they are very aggressive and that their hearts sink when they see them coming to their counter, because they intimidate the workers, and one even used the B word when referring to a woman who works there, which shocked them. Soon, the “ugly Israeli” will take over from the “ugly American”!

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius on November 14, 2015, 9:10 am

        @Kay

        Yes, I’ve heard similar stories from all around the world – Nepal, Peru, India, and now Australia. Most of the people who’ve told me these stories have no particular opinion about Israel one way or the other, so it isn’t anti-Zionism, much less ‘anti-semitism’, just a normal reaction to obnoxious behaviour. I’ve heard that in Nepal, many guesthouses would prefer to lose out on business than take Isreali guests, because they are rude and culturally insensitive, argue over pennies, and want nothing to do with non-Israelis.

        But of course, it’s all OK because the world hates the Jews and we owe them big time.

    • Doubtom on November 14, 2015, 5:36 pm

      Way too little Martin, and way too late. The holocaust industry is alive and robust and not in danger of expiring. Why your efforts helped in getting it codified into law. Don’t you remember?
      One can question Christopher Columbus, and what he did to the native Americans; why, we can even question your bible or the existence of your god, but YOUR ‘eternal victims’ have managed to outlaw, in a number of nations, the questioning of the holocaust. Now that’s real power! Let’s hear it for the Jews! And by the way Martin, that “special relationship” you and your ilk always trot out there at every opportunity, is pure bunk, contrived by your propagandists. The American public damn sure doesn’t know or even have an inkling of what this ‘special relationship’ consists, except that we’re damn sure it involves an “eternal” drain on our treasury. You had a great deal to do with that too, Martin.

  16. oneangrycomic on November 13, 2015, 8:20 am

    If Israel wants to try and confuse consumers by lying about the place of manufacture, we will simply have to boycott ALL goods marked “Made in Israel!”

    Works for me! Just another Israeli deception that backfired! Their arrogance and deceit make it soooo easy to beat them!

    • Kay24 on November 13, 2015, 9:17 am

      Works for me too. I already avoid products that I know are made in Israel. Until the occupation stops…..

      • Qualtrough on November 13, 2015, 1:36 pm

        I have been doing that for years and would never knowingly buy anything from Israel, full stop. There are not many Israeli products on the shelves where I live, but a while back I was put to the test when I saw that a bag of pretzels I wanted were ‘Made in Israel’. I put it back.

      • Kay24 on November 13, 2015, 7:13 pm

        Also keep in mind they are devious enough to mislabel products like this:

        http://bdslist.org/consumer/israeli-dates/

  17. Salander2000 on November 13, 2015, 11:01 am

    When I read the Times article, I thought: there is absolutely nothing racist about wanting to know where food is grown; for that matter, I’m equally concerned about GMO crops in the U.S, and there is nothing racist about that.
    Revolutions in thought tend to start slowly, but as the Times respondees demonstrated, not everyone is glamored by its obsequious devotion to the brutality and racism of the Netanyahu government.
    I was also encouraged by the idea that Palestinians have been colonized by the Israeli Government, for this is exactly what is occurring.
    Good for the EU.

  18. Kris on November 13, 2015, 12:40 pm

    “‘I am tired of Israel using US-made rockets to bomb Palestinians so that ultra-conservatives can steal their land.”

    Me, too. And I am tired of all the pointless, sickening cruelty Israeli Jews demonstrate over and over again, even deliberately preventing Palestinian students from taking up their scholarships at universities.

    Palestinian students from the Gaza Strip who have been granted scholarships by the Turkish government to complete their university studies in Turkey have said that they are now at risk of losing their places due to their inability to travel as a result of the continued closure of the crossings.

    In separate interviews with correspondents from Anadolu Agency, the students expressed their concerns over losing their grants in the light of the closure of the Rafah crossing in the southern Gaza Strip by Egyptian authorities on the one hand, and the Israeli authorities’ refusal to issue the necessary permits required for them to exit through the northern Gaza Strip crossing of Beit Hanoun “Erez” on the other hand.

    This year, 86 Gazan students from different disciplines and levels of study (BA, MA, PhD) received grants from Turkish institutions to pushed their studies.

    “Last August we got a visa to enter Turkish territory to join the university there, after a long journey of applying for a scholarship and passing many interviews,” said 26-year-old Mohammed Al-Hamaida, who has been accepted to complete his postgraduate studies at Turkey’s Marmara University

    He continued: “The closure of the Rafah crossing for more than 85 days, and the procrastination of the Israeli authorities to issue permits to allow our crossing through the Erez crossing, has impeded our travel.”

    Al-Hamaida expressed his fears of losing his Turkish scholarship, especially since the academic year in Turkish universities began more than a month and a half ago. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/22259-students-from-gaza-fear-losing-scholarships-in-turkey-due-to-closure-of-crossings

    Israel’s paid-for-by-the-U.S. best friend Egypt colludes with Israel to destroy the hopes and dreams of these Palestinian students. How does such gratuitous cruelty benefit Israel? I really can’t find a way understand this.

  19. Qualtrough on November 13, 2015, 1:53 pm

    What a vile, despicable country. I think that French ambassador said it best when he called it “ce petit pays de merde.”

  20. Ossinev on November 13, 2015, 2:21 pm

    Israel on my understanding STILL has a preferential trade agreement with the EU. It has also been allowed to sign up to the EU Horizon project. Sooner or later given the relentless whingeing about the EU , it`s individual countries and it`s citizens being basically anti semitic ,inherently biased against Israel or worst of all naive idiots duped by leftie politicians the EU man on the street is going to turn around and say these people and specifically their so called “leaders” are basically sticking two fingers up at us. Why then are we giving them the benefit of preferential tariffs , why are we subsidising them to be part of our scientific development programmes , why are we allowing them to take part in EUROPEAN sports competitions if they loathe so much , why are they allowed to take part in our wonderful Eurovision Song Contest etc , oh and why are they targeting our capital cities with their nuclear weapons. Yes and if they , including their politicians, hate us so much why are we allowing them to visit our countries. Why are we travelling on holiday to the Land of Creation if they hate us so much Surely hatred converts to being an existential threat ( Zion`s own analysis )

    Europe is NOT the US. Yes there are Zionist Lobby groups but their influence in political attitudes and decisions is miniscule compared with the US ( and even the influence of these in the US is thankfully on the wane )

    Of course the goons in their cocooned Ziobubble don`t get this.

    BOYCOTT UGLY APARTHEID ISRAEL

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius on November 13, 2015, 3:14 pm

      “Europe is NOT the US. Yes there are Zionist Lobby groups but their influence in political attitudes and decisions is miniscule compared with the US”

      I agree that things aren’t as bad as in the US, but unfortunately I can’t agree that the influence of Zionist groups is ‘miniscule’ in Europe. It varies from country to country of course, but there is a very powerful Zionist lobby in France. The ‘Friends of Israel’ lobby groups in the UK are also very powerful, with an estimated 80% of the Tory parliamentary party members of said group (witness Boris Johnson’s embarrassing display in Israel this week). And the Germans, of course, have allowed their Middle East policy to be distorted by misplaced ‘Holocaust guilt’. If the Zionist lobby were really so ‘miniscule’, why did it take literally years for the EU to agree on a very watered-down policy of labelling ‘settlement’ produce? They managed to agree on sanctions against Russia with no delay whatsoever.

      And while I agree that your average European is much less Zionist than your average American, the EU is not a democratic organisation, not in this, nor in any other respect.

      • Keith on November 13, 2015, 5:32 pm

        MAXIMUS- “I agree that things aren’t as bad as in the US, but unfortunately I can’t agree that the influence of Zionist groups is ‘miniscule’ in Europe.

        I agree that the influence of European Zionist groups is not miniscule, however, I am not so sure that their influence is not as great as in the US. I base this on the fact that Europe has yielded to pressure for both Holocaust education in the public schools and for laws criminalizing anti-Semitism specifically (not part of broader anti-discrimination laws), always a subjective interpretation. All of these laws are more recent and reflect the rise of Jewish power as opposed to any anti-Semitic threat. A couple of quotes and links to make the point.

        “… there are at least seven countries which have entered specific legislation into the law books dealing with the subject of antisemitism. They are: Romania, Spain, Mexico, Switzerland, France, Sweden and Austria.” (CFCA) http://www.antisemitism.org.il/eng/Legislation%20Against%20Antisemitism%20and%20Denial%20of%20the%20Holocaust

        “As of November 2013, laws of this kind (Holocaust education) were on the books of Austria, France, Germany, Israel, the Netherlands, Poland, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and the American states of California, Florida, Illinois, New Jersey, and New York.” (Wikipedia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_requiring_teaching_of_the_Holocaust

      • Sibiriak on November 14, 2015, 1:20 am

        Keith: Europe has yielded to pressure for both Holocaust education in the public schools and for laws criminalizing anti-Semitism

        —————-

        What evidence is there that Europe “yielded to pressure”, as opposed to “naturally agreed with Zionist policy proposals”? On what evidentiary basis can you say there has been a coercive relationship between “Jewish power” and European political elites, as opposed to a symbiotic one?

      • Keith on November 14, 2015, 11:17 am

        SIBIRIAK- “On what evidentiary basis can you say there has been a coercive relationship between “Jewish power” and European political elites, as opposed to a symbiotic one?”

        I am making a logical inference based upon intuitive pattern recognition that this recent appearance of Holocaust education and laws criminalizing anti-Semitism is the result of pressure not symbiosis. It has come to my attention that Zionist groups such as AIPAC, ADL, The Council of Presidents of the Major Jewish Organizations, Jewish Fat-Cats (Saban and Adelson, et al), etc., achieve their objectives through pressure. How many laws and educational changes don’t have advocates? Coercive? Steven Salaita didn’t get fired because of symbiosis. Netanyahu didn’t get all those standing ovations due to symbiosis. Politicians don’t fear the wrath of AIPAC because of symbiosis. I certainly hope that you don’t seriously believe that this increasing emphasis on the Holocaust in the US and Europe is anything other than the manifestation of increased Zionist power.

        If you have the time, please feel free to investigate the details of this sudden spate of deference to Jews and the Holocaust to demonstrate that it was other than the rather obvious consequence of Zionist power-seeking. As for me, I am surrounded by too many examples of this sort of thing not to draw the obvious conclusion. Two quotes for you:

        “Just as organized Jewry remembered the Holocaust when Israeli power peaked, so it remembered the Holocaust when American Jewish power peaked.” (p37, “The Holocaust Industry,” Norman Finkelstein.

        “It takes an unusual mind to undertake an analysis of the obvious” (Unknown)

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