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Large majority of Palestinians in WB and Gaza think a full scale Intifada is on the horizon

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For the first time since the weeks leading up to the second Intifada in 2000, a majority of Palestinians believe the current intensified violence will build into a full scale Intifada with greater potential to achieve their goals than peace talks with Israel, said a report published on Monday by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey (PCPS), the West Bank’s leading independent pollster.

Overall 66 percent of Palestinians anticipate that an armed uprising will take place, and by the same two-thirds margin, Palestinians also support knife attacks on Israelis. Of the attacks and alleged attacks in which Israeli security forces shot Palestinians, 47 percent believe there was no stabbing or attempted stabbing by the alleged Palestinian assailant.

By contrast only 18 percent believe a non-violent popular uprising will be launched from the current confrontations.

Sixty-eight percent of Palestinians polled say that their leaders should abandon the Oslo Accords, the 22-year-old bilateral agreement that was made with the goal of a Palestinians state. Yet two-thirds said they did not think Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas will suspend it, despite a pledge in recent weeks that his government is no longer obligated to follow the pact.

Palestinians generally interpret an end to the Oslo Accords as an official end to security coordination with Israel. The survey showed most Palestinians did not believe Abbas would take this step. Two-thirds surveyed think Abbas opposes the unrest. Even so a majority of Palestinians believe that Abbas’s political party and ruling faction Fatah support the confrontations.

Yet it is Abbas’s rival party Hamas that is viewed as the most supportive of an Intifada in the making with 71 percent of respondents viewing the Islamist group that governs over the Gaza Strip as supportive of the current confrontations. However, this has not translated into expanding Hamas’s popularity beyond its political base, around one-quarter of Palestinians. The poll found if new presidential elections were held tomorrow, a candidate from Hamas would win—unless imprisoned Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti were to run as a Fatah candidate. The survey suggests that Palestinians would elect a leader from Hamas over Fatah, because of a growing disappointment and distrust of Abbas rather than a belief in Hamas’s political program.

Of those who think an Intifada is on the horizon, the “Oslo Generation” aged 18-22 are the strongest supporters. They are defined as the most secular of those polled and most opposed to the current Palestinian leadership.

The survey was conducted between December 10th and 12th, interviewing 1270 adults from the West Bank and Gaza with a margin of error of 3 percent. The findings follow two and a half months of unrest across Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory.

While it is still unclear how long the confrontations will continue, or if they will escalate and cause major changes to the static political climate, the survey results suggest changes on the ground could follow the shift in public opinion, favoring an uprising for the first time since the last Intifada of 2000-2005, according to the director of the PCPS Dr. Khalil Shikaki.

“In the mid-90s there was very little support for violence achieving national rights,” Shikaki said at a briefing in Ramallah on his survey’s results. Popular backing of an uprising remained low until just two months before the outbreak of the second Intifada. The sea-change in public opinion was quick. Fifty-six-percent thought an Intifada was close to starting in July 2000. Today already two-thirds of Palestinians believe an uprising is in early stages.

“Based on what we have seen in the last two to three months, it is clear that we are not likely to see a reversal in the current confrontations any time soon,” Shikaki said. “There will be an escalatory process, and it will be gradual. I think this could be the case but only after a lengthy period of time. This could be a year or two.”

Part of the reason Shikaki sees a slower start to a potential full-on intifada is that “the emotional part”—the killings of large number of Palestinians—are taking place at a fraction of the rate at which they took place at the outset of the last uprising (on average one to two killed everyday) . He thinks these numbers have kept the masses of Palestinians from protesting against Israel.

“At the initial start of second Intifada, ten Palestinians were killed per day,” said Shikaki. “Israel is acting in a much more constrained matter in terms of shooting at the Palestinians—keeping emotional levels down.”

At the same time the Palestinian political parties are less involved in launching an uprising than during the last two Intifadas. In the first uprising factions instigated demonstrations and boycotts. In the second uprising they ordered and coordinated attacks and bombings against Israelis. Today these groups are less powerful. In the current confrontations, local branches of political parties have mounted protests against Israel; however, the bulk of the steering is done by student groups and networks of youth over social media. As for the knife attacks, those have exclusively been carried out by individuals unaffiliated with the Palestinian political sides.   

“My guess is that Abbas will lose control,” Shikaki said, estimating Palestinian security forces will not be able to keep pace in thwarting attacks against Israelis if they progress. “At the end of next year, he won’t be able to control use of fire arms or planned attacks.”

“The escalation does not need the participation of large numbers of people,” Shikaki warned. “Most of the incitement that the Israelis are talking about is not actually from the Palestinian Authority, it is from social media.” Indeed, 85 percent of the Oslo Generation said they get their news from social media, according to the poll.

Allison Deger

Allison Deger is the Assistant Editor of Mondoweiss.net. Follow her on twitter at @allissoncd.

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96 Responses

  1. Citizen on December 17, 2015, 12:34 pm

    Oslo passe and they feel the existential threat to their people & culture when they get up in the morning. The irony is the nuclear-armed & superpower-funded Jewish Israelis are the ones always claiming they are under existential threat.

    • Kay24 on December 18, 2015, 8:23 am

      Isn’t that the irony of the entire situation? One of the world’s top manufacturer of weapons, who has a well trained (ruthless) military, and who wields the power over the occupied people, are always under existential threat. It does not sound logical in any sense. I hope some reasonable nation would at least arm these poor people, so that they can “defend themselves”. Right now, they are like sitting ducks, and the big zionist guns are all pointing at them, and when the zionists run short of ammo, Uncle Sam makes sure they are well stocked again.

      • amigo on December 20, 2015, 2:56 pm

        “Isn’t that the irony of the entire situation? One of the world’s top manufacturer of weapons, who has a well trained (ruthless) military, and who wields the power over the occupied people, are always under existential threat.” Kay 24

        And the mother of all ironies is that Nietanyahu , (King of the Jews) tells all his subjects to leave all those anti semitic nations and come to Israel where they will , finally be safe.

    • YoniFalic on December 20, 2015, 4:33 pm

      One of my professors at Columbia mentioned historiographic tendency. The British middle class is always rising while the Jews are always threatened. I think he was quoting or paraphrasing Salo Baron.

  2. Theo on December 17, 2015, 1:24 pm

    I think it was Teddy Rooswelt who said the following: “Talk softly, but carry a big stick”.
    The palestinians talked way too long very softly, their leaders took the silver pieces and stuck their heads into the sand, and they all forgot that if you want to be free you must fight for it. I cannot remember one single case where a nation got their freedom without fighting and even dying for it.
    In Palestina there is not a chance that the zionists ever relinquish their hold on power and the occupied land, therefore it is time the palestinians took it back. The timing is positiv, all around them other arab nations are in uproar and the IS could very easily supply them with weapons. With all those weapons floating around the ME, some could easily find their way to the Gaza and West Bank.
    The USA is so occupied with the other centers of violence in the ME, that Washington would probably not support Israel as it always did, and may force the zionists to make a move and free the palestinians.

    • talknic on December 17, 2015, 4:12 pm

      @ Theo

      That’s exactly what Israel wants. It will then react with complete disregard to proportional force under the guise of self protection (of its illegal settlements in territories “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” )

      As for IS supplying the Palestinians with weapons, this is from the Palestinian constitution

      Article (5) Arabic and Islam are the official Palestinian language and religion. Christianity and all other monotheistic religions shall be equally revered and respected. The Constitution guarantees equality in rights and duties to all citizens irrespective of their religious belief. https://www.unodc.org/tldb/pdf/Palestine_const_2003.pdf

      The opposite of IS!

      • Theo on December 20, 2015, 11:10 am

        Talknic

        You probably heard the following, “the enemy of my enemy is a friend of mein”!
        We, the USA, had over the years a few real bad partners in wars, like Stalin and the soviets during WWII. He was a bloody butcher of his own people, but had a huge military force, and WWII was won at Stalingrad, where the german army suffered a huge defeat. They never recovered from the loss of a whole army.

        I would rather line up all IS terrorist against the wall and shoot them all, however they are the only force that can stand up to Israel, so the palestinians can also say the same as we did with Stalin.
        Constitutions and laws say a lot, however they are constantly ignored, I could quote you a whole line of it in the USA.

        We have another problem in the ME, the Kurds. There are around 17 million of them and the colonial powers at the end of WWI divided them up into four different countries. Turkey has the most of them, about 30% of the land area actually belongs to the kurds, and our friend Erdogan is right now busy waging war, with our approval, against their own people. Tanks and artillery against cvivilians, sounds a bit like Israel. Do we hear any protest from Washington or Brussels? A member of the NATO butchering its own people.
        We can just allow all that and lose the last ounce of respect of this world, or we must stop all that bloodshedding.

      • Theo on December 20, 2015, 11:37 am

        Talknic

        You probably heard the following, “the enemy of my enemy is a friend of mein”!
        We, the USA, had over the years a few real bad partners in wars, like Stalin and the soviets during WWII. He was a bloody butcher of his own people, but had a huge military force, and WWII was won at Stalingrad, where the german army suffered a huge defeat. They never recovered from the loss of a whole army.

        I would rather line up all IS terrorist against the wall and shoot them all, however they are the only force that can stand up to Israel, so the palestinians can also say the same as we did with Stalin.
        Constitutions and laws say a lot, however they are constantly ignored, I could quote you a whole line of it in the USA.

        We have another problem in the ME, the Kurds. There are around 17 million of them and the colonial powers at the end of WWI divided them up into four different countries. Turkey has the most of them, about 30% of the land area belongs to the kurds, and our friend Erdogan is right now busy waging war, with our approval, against their own people. Tanks and artillery against cvivilians, sounds a bit like Israel.
        We can just allow all that and lose the last ounce of respect of this world, or we must stop all that bloodshedding.

      • Mooser on December 20, 2015, 3:00 pm

        “You probably heard the following, “the enemy of my enemy is a friend of mein”!

        Is “Theo” suggesting an alliance with the Chinese?

        “I would rather line up all IS terrorist against the wall and shoot them all, however they are the only force that can stand up to Israel, so the palestinians can also say the same as we did with Stalin.”

        And I’m the comedian? Ho-Kay!

    • diasp0ra on December 17, 2015, 6:42 pm

      @Theo

      Taking this wild idea a bit further, who exactly would the IS even supply? Hamas? The same group that IS threatened and called traitors? Fatah? PFLP?

      The IS has no basis in Palestine and no support among the vast vast majority of the population. They would arm nobody, and nobody would want their weapons.

      Frankly the mention of IS and Palestinians in the same sentence is not helpful, and not realistic in any sense. There is no connection. The only people desperately trying to create a connection is Israel.

    • DaBakr on December 18, 2015, 2:11 am

      @the

      as suspected, the big ‘human right’s supporters and Zionist-haters are the real war hawks. Sounds like commenter is just itching to get into a full blown violent war ( that can’t be presented as all ‘quaint’ just by using the romantic sounding intifada instead of the more accurate ‘full blown war’). Or maybe comment is urging others to start a war that would satusfy commenters personal desire to see Israel suffer and bleed even if someone else’s blood must flow for their sense of vengeance

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius on December 18, 2015, 5:05 am

        ” that can’t be presented as all ‘quaint’ just by using the romantic sounding intifada instead of the more accurate ‘full blown war’).”

        Even better, maybe they should just massacre children and other civilians, and give it a cutesy name like ”Operation Protective Edge”? Or invade another country, killing well over 10,000 civilians, and give it the Orwellian name of ”Operation Peace for Gallilee”?

        Or something like that?

      • Boo on December 18, 2015, 12:40 pm

        The term “war” cannot be properly applied to massacres such as those for which the IDF is now becoming infamous. “War” implies some measure of battlefield or theatre parity which in no way exists.

        A few thousand Palestinian civilians murdered one year, a few thousand the next, five or six today, perhaps another ten tomorrow — it begins to add up to a Slowlocaust.

      • Theo on December 18, 2015, 2:02 pm

        DaBakr

        I presume you addressed me above with the @the.

        I am against attacking, invading or occupying the land of others, war doesn´t solve any problems, it just brings new ones, as we can see with Iraq, Syria, etc.
        However, I am in favour that the occupied people use ALL available means to destroy and kill those who subjugate them. No mercy until they leave the country. I am old enough to remember WWII, where the soviet, french, greek, serb and italian partisans destroyed the invading nazi hordes.

        We, the USA, are doing the wars for Israel to destroy one arab country after another, so they never can unite and be dangerous to the hegemony of the zionists. Our soldiers die for your cause, we pay the costs so you can survive. Yes, I am in favour that finally the arabs wake up and take their country back, whatever means it may take.

      • Mooser on December 18, 2015, 2:59 pm

        “Yes, I am in favour that finally the arabs wake up and take their country back, whatever means it may take.”

        Theodore of Arabia!

      • DaBakr on December 19, 2015, 12:43 pm

        @mdm

        typical tit-for-tat response. anyway, it now seems evident that so many of the progressive, human rights loving, hand-wringing left wingers are totally gung ho war hawks when it comes to attacking israel for arabs to “take their country back”. whatever that means. ” by whatever means necessary” with all due respect, is the most foolish triumphalist fantasy the palestinians could live by. however-it is their lives and their futures that their leaders and supporters must make decisions about. meanwhile we’ll be here too.

      • annie on December 19, 2015, 1:27 pm

        now seems evident that so many of the .. hand-wringing left wingers are totally gung ho war hawks

        so many? please link. or are you construing that from this brief exchange? who here besides theo (43 years in the military, hardly a hand-wring left winger) might you be referencing?

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius on December 20, 2015, 11:55 am

        “anyway, it now seems evident that so many of the progressive, human rights loving, hand-wringing left wingers are totally gung ho war hawks when it comes to attacking israel for arabs to “take their country back”. whatever that means. ”

        “typical tit-for-tat response.”

        Not at all. Just pointing out the abject hypocrisy of whining about the Palestinians’ ‘romanticising’ resistance to occupation, while ignoring the fact that Israel routinely gives its massacres faux macho names which look like they were invented by a particularly slow 14 year old boy.

        But to address your ‘point’

        Firstly, an occupied people have the right, under international law, to resist the occupation by violent means, if they so choose. Their occupiers, by contrast, do NOT have the right of defence against an occupied people. Like most hasbarists, you invert that – an acknowledged principle of international law – entirely.

        Secondly, if you don’t want the occupied to resist their occupation by violent means, how do you suggest they do so? I’m willing to bet a large amount of cash that you are also very much opposed to BDS and any other form of peaceful resistance. Basically, you just don’t want the Palestinians to resist occupation at all, in any way, violent OR peaceful.

        I’m right, am I not?

    • annie on December 18, 2015, 2:32 am

      theo, the concept of isis supplying palestinians w/weapons is straight out of the zionist handbook. just nix that thought. and the proof is in the pudding w/dabkr pluralizing “‘human right’s supporters” when in fact you’re the only person here (or anywhere) making this sort of statement besides zionists. israel is reinforcing nusra in syria near the golan. think about that. rethink and fast.

      • Theo on December 18, 2015, 11:50 am

        Annie

        I certainly hoped that my comment makes a few waves in the MW community, it is getting a bit complacent. If you think that you will ever force Israel to free the palestinians with a lot of comments in this blog, a BDS, or similar toothless means, then in my opinion you are wasting your time. I would be most happy if I would be proved wrong.

        Who do you think supplied the Mujjahedin, the Al Quida or the ISIS with weapons? Yes, we did it, either directly or through third parties. They are fighting with US, german, british and french weapons, some of them the best there is. The USA just invested 500 million to arm and train anti Assad troops, most of it ended in ISIS hands, we have 4 or 5 persons left!! Just look up the recent congress inquiry into this. This past spring we air dropped weapons in Syria, in areas controlled by the ISIS. A mistake?

        If one has a cancer, he may try many different cures, pills, etc., however the times will come when he either goes into surgery or he dies. We must admit that Israel never will draw back from the occupied areas and keeps subjugating the palestinians, so what is the solution? More pills or the scalpel?

      • Mooser on December 18, 2015, 1:51 pm

        ” If you think that you will ever force Israel to free the palestinians with a lot of comments in this blog, a BDS, or similar toothless means, then in my opinion you are wasting your time. I would be most happy if I would be proved wrong. “

        Oh, I love it when I can bring joy to people in this Holiday Season! “Theo”, see the “about” page, and prepare to be ecstatic!

        “The palestinians should try the same, they have nothing to lose. Tanks and fighter planes are useless in a street to street fighting, the invading army is at a huge disadvantage. And they are not fighting a superpower, like the hungarians did, but an occupier in the same number without a chance of getting new fresh troops.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/recent-comments#sthash.6dHtgdA1.dpuf

        And you will have the guts to unflinchingly watch this uprising by the Palestinians? I mean, since you are brave enough to call for it and all, and even offer tactical suggestions and analysis. I’m not doubting it, just admiring your courage. I bet you would be brave enough to watch.

      • Mooser on December 18, 2015, 2:32 pm

        “Tanks and fighter planes are useless in a street to street fighting”

        If you have tanks and fighter planes (duh, which also carry rockets and bombs these days) you don’t need to do any street to street fighting. You just knock down, blow up and burn the entire area.

        One might well ask, what have they done in the past, gone to street to street with small arms to preserve life and preserve architecture?

      • Theo on December 20, 2015, 11:47 am

        mooser

        Every crowd has its clown, who with cheap comments tries to get the attention of the others, however intelligent people usually get tired of it very fast.
        You may think that you are funny, however I prefer Jack Benny.

        Your comments prove that most of the time you just do not know what you are talking about. Join the Boy Scouts or the street cleaners and do something positiv for a change.

      • Mooser on December 20, 2015, 2:24 pm

        Theo, everything you say about me is true.
        But look, do me one favor. You mention you are a retired career US military man. Before you go to Palestine to foment revolution, check with the State Department, and the VA.

      • Theo on December 21, 2015, 12:53 pm

        Annie

        “israel is reinforcing nusra in syria….”

        Good luck to them! Al Nusra is an associate of Al Quida and eventually the IDF must face the weapons they gave them, as we did in Afghanistan and are doing right now in Iraq and Syria.
        We gave a lot of weapons to the Mujjahedin to fight the soviets in Afghanistan, after the withdrawal of the soviets they changed their name to Al Quida and shot us with our own weapons.
        By the way, Israel is involved in Syria since day one, they trained a lot of those “freedom fighters” and constantly meddles there. They just executed a palestinian leader in Damascus, with missiles. How did they know where that person located?

        I noticed that one serving in the Armed Forces of our country treated as a right wing monster. First of all, in today´s army less than 50% are in actual combat units, a majority is in support, and we also have there the same diverse political interests as in the population of the country. I consider myself to be a liberal, however with both eyes open to see this world exactly as it really is. With prayers and good wishes you cannot stop evil or free a nation.

        You should never blame the soldiers for going to war, because the great majority do not want to go to war where the game is to kill or be killed. Blame the president and the politicians, whom you elected, they decide on such moves. The military will be ordered by the president and they must obey such orders. Perhaps MW could serve peace better by putting pressure on those politicians who constantly want to bomb or attack someone and who underwrite Israel´s policy and finance it with our taxmoney. As long as such support will not stop, you can forget about helping the palestinians. They have no honest leaders and the world just forgot them.

    • amigo on December 20, 2015, 3:37 pm

      “I think it was Teddy Rooswelt who said the following: “Talk softly, but carry a big stick”.”theo.

      And I believe it was Theo Mooserweld , who said ” Moo softly , but wield a big Antler”.

      • Mooser on December 20, 2015, 3:52 pm

        “amigo”, as the IDF general said, when asked how he would handle street-to-street fighting in Gaza: “T’anks, a lot!”

  3. xanadou on December 17, 2015, 7:00 pm

    Dying for freedom makes for compelling lines in poetry, but sucks in the real world.

    Fight for freedom: YES. But live to win the fight.

    The Palestinians have been fighting the unequal battles for interminable decades, with heroic stands, equipped with stones expected to match white phosphorous, tanks, torture chambers and more, ad infinitum. Pointing to homes destroyed in retaliation does nothing for a family shivering in the cold and rain.

    Talking fight trash may make the 18-22 feel better, because that’s all they grasp, and why Israel recruits their own kids without much trouble into the the army. Once there, the doors to hell are opened, never to be closed, effectively corrupting Israel’s own future, as well as that of the Palestinians.

    Fight the occupier, yes. But use the time wisely: with books, in depth studies, inside a standing home, by connecting to schools that will grant them free access to their classes. Expand BDS to extend the academia into Palestinian homes and minds. Ask the world to donate the necessary equipment. How else can anyone claim that this planet is not wasted on humans?

    The coming free Palestine needs well trained and alive minds, not martyrs. Just ask any grieving Mother on either side of killing divide.

    • Theo on December 18, 2015, 12:11 pm

      xanadou

      The palestinians did not put up any fight up to now, they just throw stones and get shot in return. Kids do it, the adults are hiding in their houses, scared to death!!

      During October 1956 the hungarians revolted against the soviet occupation, and I was there from beginning to end! They used molotov coctails, (gasoline bombs), to burn and destroy armored vehicles, took the weapons and used them to shoot other soviet soldiers, raided police stations to get their weapons, and did so much damage, that the soviets had to pull out the troops and replace them with special forces.
      Over 100 armored vehicles were destroyed, more than 1,000 soviet soldiers killed and the hungarians lost around 5,000 persons. You may find many videos in YouTube showing you what courage means in face of superior forces.
      What did the hungarians achieve? New, moderate government, new laws allowing private enterprise and travel, etc., the country became the most liberal in east Europe.

      The palestinians should try the same, they have nothing to lose. Tanks and fighter planes are useless in a street to street fighting, the invading army is at a huge disadvantage. And they are not fighting a superpower, like the hungarians did, but an occupier in the same number without a chance of getting new fresh troops.
      As far as knowing what I preach, I spent over 40 years with our military, in uniform and in civil.

      • Mooser on December 18, 2015, 2:41 pm

        “As far as knowing what I preach, I spent over 40 years with our military, in uniform and in civil.”

        And you think the Israelis will engage in “street to street fighting” if they posses air superiority (oh, that’s right, the Palestinians have no airplanes, and no anti-aircraft defense, do they) and heavy arms? Uh, okay, I yield to your expert knowledge.

      • diasp0ra on December 18, 2015, 2:46 pm

        @Theo

        What a ridiculous comment. It’s like your knowledge of the history of Palestine began only a few years ago.

        The situation is not even close to being similar.

      • RoHa on December 18, 2015, 6:13 pm

        “I spent over 40 years with our military, in uniform and in civil.”

        That was the Hungarian military?

      • xanadou on December 18, 2015, 9:50 pm

        Theo, tanks may be useless, and yet countless pictures show tanks barrelling down streets, most made wider by the blown up buildings.
        Furthermore, the Israelis have the training, the best weapons the West can’t wait to supply to the Israeli army to be put to the test, then all sit back and wait for the inevitable rush of buyers.

        The Russians were easy to beat in 1956, By that time, Stalin was dead and the Russians were fast losing interest in prolonged conflicts they could not afford. The Hungarians gave the Russians what the latter did not want, coupled with the reaction by the world still reeling in the aftermath of WW2.

        Hungary was promised support by the US if the Hungarians were to confront the Russians, with no means to realistically deliver it. However, the threat of the H-bomb was still real, and the Russians were not about to take that chance. So, yes, it kinda-sorta worked.

        The Palestinians, however, are on their untrained, un-weaponized own. There is no one who will, at least for now, come to their side. If the Intifada were to take place, it would be another slaughter of the old, the women and children, and a lot of hand-wringing by the rest of the world. That’s why I stress the best means the Palestinians may have in their fight with the Israeli evil. Education. It keeps the mind strong and busy in a healthy and constructive manner and, if they could join study groups in other parts of the world, they will create powerful, direct contacts with connections to other regimes that may offer lasting and powerful, even constructive options towards throwing off the Israeli yoke.

        Furthermore, with nothing for the Israeli soldiers to shoot at, torture, and otherwise torment and kill, their calicifying leadership will see this as an excuse to invade other countries in their maniacal dream of creating the greater Israel that never was. The Israelis suck as soldiers. They excel at negotiations to get their way, they make good uni profs and tech R&D specialists, but war is not in their blood. Especially when they are supposed to be the aggressor. The Israeli army had lost every adventure they had engaged in since 1948 when they were confronted with trained adults with effective weapons. They lost monumentally to the Lebanese Hezbollah. A lot of Israelis died in those pointless, misguided and idiotic forays, a rare alternative to their primary killer, i.e., the soldiers’ suicides, because their beliefs had trained them to be the perpetual victims, not wanton killers, i.e., useful idiots for the decrepit dinosaurs for whom any war, with whomever, is a money maker. Ergo: if there is any street fighting with civilians to be done, it should be the Israeli army going after their corrupt politicians. Then learn how to live in peace with their neighbours. The latter should be a no-brainer, especially if Israeli teachers participate in working with Palestinian students to fathom the secrets of biomolecular sciences, quantum physics or ancient civilisations. No?

      • Theo on December 19, 2015, 11:50 am

        xanadou

        Best weapons do not mean a thing, we had the best in Vietnam, air superiority, agent orange, napalm bombs, etc, yet we lost the war. The IDF have the best nowdays, however the men holding it or handling it are also the best? Lebanon though us otherwise, you cannot win against people who have nothing to lose and are ready to die for the cause.
        Great part of the IDF are boys and girls from the USA and Europe who want to play war and beat up defenseless palestinians, we can see it every day in the news. Will these fun seekers face up to a detemined revolt? What I do not understand, with so much weapons floating around in the ME, why do the palestinians throw stones instead of shooting with kalashnikovs?

      • Theo on December 19, 2015, 12:04 pm

        diasp0ra

        Situations are never similar, every war is different, however even today we study military tactics used by the romans and other ancient peoples.
        You should never underestimate a person whom you do not know. To see the comments I earned, many, if not all, never served a day in a military.
        I personally make comments only when I know what I talk about.

      • diasp0ra on December 19, 2015, 12:26 pm

        @Theo

        I’m not questioning your military history or past or whatever, I’m questioning your knowledge of Palestine and its history.

        The way you talked it’s as if Palestinians have never tried to fight back in an organized guerrilla like manner, which we have. This is what caused me to question your knowledge of Palestine and its history.

        You can serve in the military all your life, doesn’t mean that you know what you’re talking about when it comes to Palestine.

      • Mooser on December 20, 2015, 3:40 pm

        “That was the Hungarian military?”

        Exactly, “RoHa”. As Hungarian as the First Hungarian Rhapsody! His English is too perfect, which clearly indicates…

      • gamal on December 30, 2015, 7:13 pm

        “The palestinians should try the same, they have nothing to lose. ” how is it that you know they have nothing to lose?

        ” the invading army is at a huge disadvantage” against the resident civilians?

        “And they are not fighting a superpower, like the hungarians (sic) did” you are saying the “Hungarians” won?

        “but an occupier in the same number without a chance of getting new fresh troops.” All countries are finite, yet still contain reinforcements and re-reinforcemants, as fresh troops are a renewable resource, were you not ever refreshed when you served? A superpower can occupy, Iraq.

        “As far as knowing what I preach, I spent over 40 years with our military, in uniform and in civil.”

        During which time you were victorious in….in…Grenada?… and Hungary.

        when were you appointed as a field marshal of Palestine?

        is Rosemary Sayigh like a Galilean Ghoulash, Speaking Palestinian

        http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/jps.2009.38.4.12?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

        “DiaspOra
        Situations are never similar” what you bring up Hungary for then?

        “You should never underestimate a person whom you do not know” Palestinians are not covered by this rigid dictum?

        “The palestinians (sic) did not put up any fight up to now,” but is there any point in fighting, when you have nothing to lose? you could say that this site exists solely, solely as a result of 100 years of Palestinian resistance, against the two preeminent superpowers of their day The Empire of Great Britain and India and Australia and the common wealth of Canada etc (?) and the USA, none the less I still think Imre Lakatos is best name ever, its made up why wouldnt it be, nee Lipschitz, if you can believe.

        anyway dont be vexed Sir, isnt there something bracing about this severe examination we subject each other too? like denouncing a captive population for their cowardice and stupidity, it can only validate your lifetime of real world experience.

        what really interests me at the moment is why is an anti-Syria/Isis war movement now inconceivable in the West, Hussein was never popular here but there was an anti-war movement in 2003,
        now we have you disrespectfully pro-war in Palestine and for Palestine, my head is spinning, life’s rich pageant indeed.

  4. ivri on December 18, 2015, 3:32 am

    They quote the two-third figure, supporting the idea of another armed Intifada, but as I understand it includes both Gazans and West-Bankers and it would be interesting and of practical implications, to break it down to the two regions – that is, to know what proportion in the West-Bank support it?
    My estimate is that in Gaza it is near 100% – because it does not directly affect them and they are already kind of a de-facto different entity – so if they are 40% of the total Palestinian population then it mathematically means that the majority in the West-Bank don`t support it.
    More to the point: Intifadas, by their nature, HAPPEN, are not planned, so this to me is just a reflection of a mindset, and also a bit of the usual psychological warfare that goes on here routinely, not actuality. The second Intifada was serious enough for Israel to have developed and deployed massive countermeasures of all kinds – active or latent (as surveillance means) – and chances are that this wave of violence will remain, or cannot exceed, its present parameters.
    Also the depressing scenes from the general region around have their effects too: it makes it easier to conceptualize (and with that internalize) how bad matters can go for people caught in chaotic violent situations.

    • annie on December 18, 2015, 4:21 am

      so if they are 40% of the total Palestinian population then it mathematically means that the majority in the West-Bank don`t support it.

      you mean if the polled palestinians in gaza voted 100% for the intifada then it mathematically means that the majority in the west bank don`t support it. but why would 100% of gazans all think alike?

      despite israel’s decades of efforts and hasbara, palestinians in gaza are not “already kind of a de-facto different entity” than palestinians in the west bank. remember, during the last election hamas won the majority in BOTH gaza and the west bank.

      nice try tho.

      • zaid on December 18, 2015, 10:27 am

        “They quote the two-third figure, supporting the idea of another armed Intifada, but as I understand it includes both Gazans and West-Bankers and it would be interesting and of practical implications, to break it down to the two regions – that is, to know what proportion in the West-Bank support it?”

        71% of Gaza and 63% of the west bank.

        I did it for you

      • ivri on December 18, 2015, 2:38 pm

        @zaid
        OK, thanks. But, regardless, I think that the second part of my earlier comment still applies.
        Beyond that, the whole notion somehow does not seem to carry the “energy” it once had. Answering polls requires nothing and can be a way to vent frustration but Israel of 2015 is already a different entity. A hi-tech giant, powerful army, strong and diverse economy, advanced tools of all kinds and primarily more than 6 million Jews, mostly living in cities which, as in the entire Tel-Aviv metropolitan area, are not ethnically mixed (unlike the situation in Europe). So just how much should people here fear these threats (see my earlier comment)?
        You could say that this poll demonstrates that bad will towards Israel apparently is in abundance among Palestinians but then reality also has a practical dimension to it. I too sometimes have those dreams, as e.g. having the entire (Biblical) Promised Land under Israel, but I admit I doubt it will ever happen.

      • annie on December 18, 2015, 3:32 pm

        regardless, I think that the second part of my earlier comment still applies.

        wrt “2nd part” given your current comment about Israel of 2015 being a different entity, i’m assuming you mean – and chances are that this wave of violence will remain, or cannot exceed, its present parameters. ?

        i don’t think you’re taking all things into consideration. i’m not writing this because i advocate a third intifada. i support the choice of the palestinian people. the focus of my argument is to counter your idea what “practical dimension” means. what makes or breaks israel is outside support. they can’t survive without it. a 3rd intifada might have a boomerang effect and turn generations of public opinion firmly against israel. israeli hasbara is centered around the “savage enemy” narrative. if that narrative fails or is unconvincing (which i think it is) that israeli strength you’re counting on might not hold up in global isolation. israelis have no idea how to survive without being taken care of by a superpower. things are moving faster — wrt public opinion. a third intifada could find support for zionism crashing in on itself.

      • ivri on December 18, 2015, 5:32 pm

        @Annie
        I think a general problem with your outlook is that it does not seem to change with circumstances. You got to take into account that what you call Israel`s isolation or dependence is marginal compared to the effects of recent major world developments, which combined create an altogether new situation in the world, which affects Israel too. As with what is happening in Europe, with immigrants and terror, the US developing new attitude – far more assertive – to Islamism (which will take a more pronounced effect with a new president in the US – listen to ALL main candidates), the continued upheaval in the Mid-East in, the developments with turkey (which now seeks to reconcile with Israel), The new Iran posturing, Jordan`s tightened yup links to Israel, Egypt`s new attitude to Israel and so on an don – there is a lot on the plate here and yet your outlook seem to be stuck where it ever was – and that` s to me unrealistic.

      • annie on December 18, 2015, 6:21 pm

        iow, i say to you “i don’t think you’re taking all things into consideration”, you ignore my points and tell me your outlook is that it does not seem to change with circumstances

        the continued promotion (hasbara) regarding all the other stuff going on in the ME as somehow a altogether new situation in the world, which affects Israel too doesn’t impress me in the least and is not new. it’s the exact same “savage enemy” narrative i just referenced, only somewhat rehashed. and keep in mind no matter what’s going on israel always has one intent — to expand. that doesn’t change either. the oppression of palestinians only gets worse, not better. so it’s an illusion what’s happening in the surrounding area will impact israel’s policy against palestinians. the only thing that will impact israel is firm targeted pressure from the outside.

        Jordan`s tightened yup links to Israel, Egypt`s new attitude to Israel and so on

        american puppets support israel — impressive/not. by all means let me know when support for israel from european and US populations begins to expand. otherwise, the only direction attitude towards israel is moving is — less of it. a lot less of it.

      • zaid on December 18, 2015, 7:06 pm

        You have a history of giving false predictions and estimates, just look at your embarrassing prediction that the attacks at France was a beginning of a world war and clash of civilization which not only didnot happen, but the opposite happened.

        Not a single European or Western country reversed its designation to accept Syrian refugees.

        ” but Israel of 2015 is already a different entity.”

        It is currently one of the most hated country world wide, neck and neck with North Korea (see BBC world survey)

        ” A hi-tech giant, ”

        I hear that a lot, but i really doubt it, actually when i look at the data/stats it seems far from truth and just an exaggerated propaganda. it is part of the industry but really not a big thing.

        “powerful army, strong and diverse economy, advanced tools of all kinds ”

        Israel is not even the biggest economy in the middle east (5th) let alone in the world.
        The UAE have a bigger and more diverse economy than Israel.

        “and primarily more than 6 million Jews, mostly living in cities which, as in the entire Tel-Aviv metropolitan area, are not ethnically mixed “(unlike the situation in Europe). ”

        I agree, but this actually bad for Israel, and i might add that Jews are only a majority in really a small portion in the country (Tel Aviv, coastal strip), in the remaining the Palestinians dominate.

        “are not ethnically mixed “(unlike the situation in Europe). ”

        Just look at the Racism !

        “As with what is happening in Europe, with immigrants and terror, the US developing new attitude – far more assertive – to Islamism (which will take a more pronounced effect with a new president in the US – listen to ALL main candidates),”

        This prediction of WW3 / Clash of Civilization keeps popping out every terrorist attack in the last 4 decades (the peak was 9/11) and yet it never materialized and every day it seems more than a wishful thinking than a real possibility .

        Not a single country in Europe or the West reversed the decision to accept Syrian refugees, France didnot start a war in Syria after the Paris attack, and the Extreme right lost the recent elections in ALL PROVINCES and it seems there is no appetite for any western country to start another stunt in the middle east after the Iraq mess .actually the opposite is happening, the Iran deal, the labeling of Israeli product, linking terrorism to the I\P conflict all points to the opposite to what you are suggesting, so your wet dreams are nothing but a Farce.

        “the developments with turkey (which now seeks to reconcile with Israel)”

        Be patient and dont give another stupid prediction (you wanna bet they will not kick Hamas out as the Israelis requested .

        “Jordan`s tightened yup links to Israel”

        We saw these tight links in the recent Alaqsa Issue, the King refused to even meet with Netanuaho.

        “Egypt`s new attitude to Israel and so on an don.”

        The clown CC but not the Egyptian nation, who still despise Israel as they did 70 yrs ago.

      • ivri on December 19, 2015, 5:30 am

        @ zaid “you have a history of giving false predictions…”
        Are you not a bit impatient? My prediction of just months ago was not supposed, or claimed, to happen instantly. Did you not follow the last elections there (in France)? Or what goes on too in other countries in Europe in similar regards and also in the US?
        In my view the trends can`t be clearer. What is taking place in the world now is some kind of a new type of a world-war – done generally under a similar political-religious ideology and takes place simultaneously all around the world – mainly in the Mid-East, Europe, Africa and the US.
        There is no telling how it will develop because such within-country, rather than between countries, global war has no precedence. It is a product of today`s advanced state of the globalization process cum the dramatic technology advances plus a ubiquitous media (which is essential for terror to make a big impact) – a situation and combination that the world have never had before.
        But this global drama of today is a process, a build-up – something to watch over time and, likely for a very long time.

    • Theo on December 18, 2015, 1:42 pm

      ivri

      ” Intifadas, by their nature, HAPPEN, are not planned”

      How wrong you are! Let me quote you the 1956 hungarian uprising, that according to your estimate just HAPPENED.
      However, the US military and CIA worked on it good two years so it can HAPPEN.
      The same with the 1990 revolution in Romania, it also took a year of hard work to make it HAPPEN!

      • ivri on December 18, 2015, 2:59 pm

        @ Theo
        OK, it`s not a universal rule – I referred to the Intifadas here (namely, SELF-ignited popular uprisings). In general, and especially if there is outside subversion – as was indeed common in the Cold War where the 2 Big Guys used routinely small countries as pawns in the global (“chess”) theatre – matters can be indeed different.

      • Mooser on December 18, 2015, 3:30 pm

        “How wrong you are! Let me quote you the 1956 hungarian uprising, that according to your estimate just HAPPENED.
        However, the US military and CIA worked on it good two years so it can HAPPEN.
        The same with the 1990 revolution in Romania, it also took a year of hard work to make it HAPPEN! “

        Now, there’s a hell of a recommendation! And today’s US military and CIA will come to the aid of the Palestinians.

      • ivri on December 19, 2015, 5:02 am

        @mooser: “and today`s US and CIA will come to the aid of the Palestinians”
        Only if Trump is elected

      • Theo on December 19, 2015, 11:32 am

        Mooser

        You took a lot of time to attack me and ridicule every sentence I wrote. I make a bet that you are an armchair warrior, who never spend a day in our military, but used every excuse to get a differal, however you know just everything about warefare and how to fight a battle in closed community. You also twist the meanings of my text. I know that you are the the local Hofnarr and it is your duty to entertain the local visitors, therefore no hard feelings.

        I must admit, that during those 43 years with the US Army I did not learn anything. All those schooling and training in electronic warfare, commando tactics and partisan warware left me without any knowledge and the 40 years in the highest NATO command centers in Europe with all those generals and other high ranking officers did not improve my perception of how can an occupied nation fight for their freedom. Yes, you know everything better and Yeva should bless you for that, (oh, I know we both do not believe in that bearded superman in the cosmos, however it sound good, gel?).
        Still, I had a drink with Gen. Colin Powell and played tennis with many others, do you think is that an achiement for 40 years of duty to this country? Can you match it somehow?

      • annie on December 19, 2015, 12:16 pm

        43 years. wow.

      • Mooser on December 19, 2015, 1:02 pm

        “I make a bet that you are an armchair warrior, who never spend a day in our military,”

        Theo, you’ve only gone (for which I thank you) halfway in delineating the breed of foul I am! I’m much worse than you say. I’m an armchair pacifist.

        Of course, you can always search my archive for the advocacy of violent solutions, if you like.

      • Mooser on December 19, 2015, 1:09 pm

        “Still, I had a drink with Gen. Colin Powell and played tennis with many others, do you think is that an achiement for 40 years of duty to this country?”

        Gen Colin Powell? Some people think he is a vial man.
        Look, Theo, if you want to offer your military skills and experience to the Palestinians, I certainly can’t stand in your way. I’m not sure announcing it on Mondo is the way to go about it, or get offers, but, you’re the expert. Especially after the admissions about how much you learned, but hey, what do I know about it.

      • Mooser on December 19, 2015, 5:26 pm

        “Yeva should bless you for that, (oh, I know we both do not believe in that bearded superman in the cosmos, however it sound good, gel?).” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/majority-palestinians-intifada/comment-page-1#comment-815868

        Theo, I’m not an atheist, sorry. My belief in YMMV is unconditional. If He doesn’t exist, how do you explain the Volkswagen diesel-emissions scandal?

      • amigo on December 20, 2015, 4:07 pm

        ” and the 40 years in the highest NATO command centers in Europe with all those generals and other high ranking officers did not improve my perception of how can an occupied nation fight for their freedom” Theo

        You acted correctly Theo.Personnel aides are not supposed to “listen in ” on the conversations of those they serve.

        You should write a book.

        My 40 years , “shining ” Americas top brass.

      • talknic on December 21, 2015, 12:43 am

        Theo ” 43 years with the US Army … schooling and training in electronic warfare, commando tactics and partisan warware … 40 years in the highest NATO command centers in Europe with all those generals and other high ranking officers … I had a drink with Gen. Colin Powell and played tennis with many others …”

        None of which can be shown to be true here while maintaining anonymity. Braggadocio has little worth and great swathes of it are even less convincing

        “did not improve my perception of how can an occupied nation fight for their freedom”

        Seems not. If you knew anything about warfare, you’d know territorial integrity/contiguity plays a huge part.

        Hungary 1956 was nothing like the fragmented territories of Palestine, where divide and conquer in overdrive has been the MO from day one, right down to dividing farmers from their crops, families from their homes, families from each other and individuals from hope and dignity

        ———-

        “The palestinians should try the same …”

        The IDF are based in a different country and have almost complete control over boundaries dwarfed by Hungary’s border

        ” they have nothing to lose”

        Only their homes and livelihoods. It’s exactly what Israel aims to encourage so it can ‘justify’ overwhelming destruction https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Gaza+destruction&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiGjbLQnuzJAhUmLKYKHSIhBboQ_AUIBygB&biw=1920&bih=926

        “Tanks and fighter planes are useless in a street to street fighting, the invading army is at a huge disadvantage “

        At boots on the ground level only. Israel can and does level anything above ground level to the ground, for which the Palestinians have no defense what so ever.

        AFAIK in 67 year the Palestinians have not downed one Israeli warplane. Nor have they taken out any Israeli artillery in Israel or any Israeli warships off the coast or any Israeli drone control centres or any airfields. Nor have they been able to take over Israeli Government buildings a la Hungary 1956

      • can of worms on December 21, 2015, 6:05 am

        Putting, for a moment, all else aside (including the drinks with generals, the tennis games with lieutenants, the buckshot with officers, the golf with presidents, and the long lonely nights spent with Clausewitz)— putting it all aside.

        You either prescribe “nonviolent resistance,” or you ascribe to the use of armed resistance as a necessary means of liberation from colonial rule. These discourses affect the struggle, underlie popular support for groups, and determine state policies. There is no reason to debase arguments merely on the basis that the commenter is an ‘armchair warrior’, is far away from the scene, is shielded, is an instigator of uprisings, or makes things “start” by offering their “military advice” — such as it is.

        In the first place, I mean, if you’re going to argue on behalf of “nonviolence,” you’re just as much an ‘armchair warrior’, because the status quo is already one of violence.

        Secondly, the colonial equation means that those in the 1948 and 1967 occupations are controlled by the internalized knowledge that they will be negatively affected by any action they might possibly take as individuals.

        By some people’s logic, nobody can speak about strategy, because either one is too far away or one is too near. What follows, is that the only ones who have the supposed legitimacy to say anything about it are a few Palestinians who have a voice, usually because they’re academics, and an entire arc of non-Palestinians, who say liberation depends on them and their “BDS.” BDS doesn’t substitute for popular resistance on the ground– and a movement has to be based on some ideology regarding force.

      • can of worms on December 21, 2015, 9:35 am

        Edit. Ugh. I am sorry –This is what happens, when you deal with an unbearable palimpsest.

        Anyhow, building on the forgoing thought, the main point is less about any particular idea, than about who can speak it.

        And the need for a movement on the ground, is precisely because BDS on its own simply cannot resolve some of the struggles faced by occupied Palestinians.

        I mean, some people keep saying: BDS is the only hope; it is nonviolent action. Or: a change in American policy is in the offing, it’s the only hope; AIPAC is going down.

        That might be very well. But on the ground, there’s a problem that popular protests are easily squashed, and so-called ‘violence’ is also squashed. BDS, or NGOs, or parties in the government which “represent” Palestinians, often do not allow a space for ordinary Palestinians to act meaningfully. And ‘inaction’ is not a neutral space, it is a humiliation. It adds to whatever else one may accrue from having to stand by from year to year.

      • Mooser on December 21, 2015, 12:13 pm

        “you’re just as much an ‘armchair warrior’”

        Okay, okay, I’m an “armchair warrior” but, damn it, the Barca-lounger hit me first.
        No doubt in pursuit of a matching Ottoman empire. We will negotiate, and get a SOFA signed.

        But it wasn’t always like this. When I was younger, I would defeat the armchair and advance to the bedroom. Of course, I had to do a lot of wheedling and begging to get there, but you know me.
        I’ve got a lot of finaglerie!

      • can of worms on December 21, 2015, 1:27 pm

        Indeed, then you know how difficult it is, just try an apartheid armchair, with part of your buttock on each side.

  5. echinococcus on December 18, 2015, 5:32 am

    “Sixty-eight percent of Palestinians polled say that their leaders should abandon the Oslo Accords, the 22-year-old bilateral agreement that was made with the goal of a Palestinians state. Yet two-thirds said they did not think Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas will suspend it, despite a pledge in recent weeks that his government is no longer obligated to follow the pact.”
    There it is. It couldn’t be clearer: Abbas and his fictitious “Palestinian State” administration are bloodsucking parasites, occupation police held there by the force of the most brutal military occupation since 1945. I wish the guy lives all the time it takes to be tried one day.

  6. diasp0ra on December 18, 2015, 10:04 am

    By the way, if anyone is interested in reading the full report:

    http://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/poll%2058%20pressrelease%20English.pdf

    I can personally vouch for the methodology used by the PCPSR, as I used to work for them. I know how painstakingly they phrase their questions to not be leading. There is a reason why they are considered the top Palestinian survey/polling/research institution.

  7. Mayhem on December 19, 2015, 8:29 am

    Of the attacks and alleged attacks in which Israeli security forces shot Palestinians, 47 percent believe there was no stabbing or attempted stabbing by the alleged Palestinian assailant

    It goes to show the power of incitement, propaganda and hate speech.

    • diasp0ra on December 19, 2015, 12:35 pm

      @Mayhem

      Not even close, if you examine the results, Gazan Palestinians who are far away believe much more that people are indeed shot while performing stabbings, whereas West Bank Palestinians believe the number to be much lower.

      Because word of mouth spreads, and countless Palestinians have been executed without any proof of a knifing or a stabbing. Countless people have been witnesses to this, and know someone who was shot, or have seen someone shot without any attack.

      Not to say that there aren’t any stabbings, but a huge part of people killed under the pretext of stabbing have been innocent, with all evidence deemed “classified”.

      Lastly, give me a break, you want to occupy a people you need to deal with them resisting against occupation. The vast majority of all incidents have happened in occupied territories, not Israel. You need to choose between safety and occupation, you can’t have both.

      • ivri on December 19, 2015, 4:01 pm

        @ Diaspora “You need to choose between safety and occupation”
        Don`t be ridiculous. Every sane Israeli believes that leaving the West-Bank, probably to Hamas rule, will make Israel`s safety infinitely worse. Following the Oslo accord when Arafat gained back a lot of the West-Bank we had the Second Intifada. Then, we may have from there a repeat of the Gaza saga – missiles launching into Israel from tunnels, only this time from right near the heartland of Israel.
        No matter how long the stabbings will continue the present situation is a piece of cake compared to what expects Israel if it abandons military control over the west-Bank.
        Truly and sadly, chances are that Israel will never have real security whatever it does – because it is its very existence that is most likely is the key problem for many.
        This is the price of being in this region (just note what goes on in around) – it has to be paid, no other choice. What`s left to be done is to try to minimize it and you can bet that many brains in Israel are now busy thinking about how to deal effectively with this phenomenon. And here there is at least, some “good news” for Israel – it has generally become prosperous partly from similar inventions in the past.

      • annie on December 19, 2015, 4:19 pm

        Every sane Israeli believes

        well that’s not saying much.

        the Second Intifada. Then…from there a repeat of the Gaza saga – missiles launching into Israel from tunnels, only this time from right near the heartland of Israel.

        oh! you skipped a little part about the economic embargo after hamas was elected morphing into the blockade didn’t you. tell us ivri, how long did hamas rule before israel and the US imposed these policies? the rocket were a response to them as well as other violent incursions into gaza and israel breaking ceasefire agreements. in fact it’s becoming apparent israel removed their settlers from gaza so they could go on continuous grassmowing operations without them being caught in the crossfire.

        Truly and sadly, chances are that Israel will never have real security whatever it does – because it is its very existence that is most likely is the key problem for many.

        yes, existing as a colonial state dispossessing others of their homeland is a key problem that will never bring security, unless they complete a full scale genocide while the world watches on.

        And here there is at least, some “good news” for Israel – it has generally become prosperous partly from similar inventions in the past.

        thus far israel has always benefitted from slaughtering palestinians while attempting to place the onus on the victims. the ol – we don’t forgive you for making us kill your children bs. if that’s your idea of good news you’re one sick puppy.

      • ivri on December 19, 2015, 4:40 pm

        @Annie
        My sense of what goes on in the world is that, as already happened before, what takes place here is just a harbinger for what will happen elsewhere – Israel is simply the first to experience things (terror, airplanes hijacking and the victimhood parlance that justifies all that) because of its particular vulnerabilities. I wonder how people in the US, including you, will react when these troubles come in earnest closer to home – as they already began – and likewise in Europe, who loves preaching to us. That would be the real test.

      • annie on December 19, 2015, 6:15 pm

        what takes place here is just a harbinger for what will happen elsewhere – Israel is simply the first to experience things (terror, airplanes hijacking and the victimhood parlance that justifies all that) because of its particular vulnerabilities.

        actually israel is not the first to experience terror or airplane hijacking and the victimhood parlance is not justified considering the founding of the state as well as subsequent state oppression inflicted by israel. but i do believe what takes place there would be a harbinger for what will happen elsewhere if we do not stop it, which is a primary reason why pro palestine activism is growing so fast. i wrote about it once – “why palestine is holding up the world” or something like that.

        I wonder how people in the US, including you, will react when these troubles come in earnest closer to home

        “these troubles”? you mean the troubles from trying to conquer another people? you mean the pushback from our ME wars and our support for israel? well, i won’t be supporting my government’s interventionist neocon foreign policy decisions, that’s for sure. i’ll continue trying to place as wide a berth between israel and the US. chickens come home to roost and our support for israel and neocon intervention in the ME has been a disaster for our country.

      • diasp0ra on December 19, 2015, 4:46 pm

        @Ivri

        Every “sane” Israeli? And who are those? Probably not those dang left wingers, am I right?

        “Following the Oslo accord when Arafat gained back a lot of the West-Bank we had the Second Intifada.”

        Um, even under the Oslo accords all of the West Bank is still occupied. Only the administration of areas A shifted. Administration, not sovereignty. Everything of worth was and still is under Israeli control, eg. borders, citizen registry. issuing of IDs and passports. There were still Israeli troops everywhere in the West Bank. You seem to forget that clashes of the Intifada happened in occupied territories, not in Israel. You also forget that the Intifada only happened after Israel continued settlement construction and annexing territories amidst negotiations which eventually fell out.

        The Missiles that you love to complain about so much (seriously all of Hamas missiles over a decade haven’t killed as many Israelis as a single day of bombing by Israel against Gaza) didn’t just spawn out of nothingness. Gaza was also occupied. It still is.

        “because it is its very existence that is most likely is the key problem for many.”

        Why yes, its existence at the expense of the natives is indeed a key problem. Israel will never have peace. If you truly believe that the status quo can be maintained indefinitely, well, good luck in the future. You might be surprised at what awaits Israel in the next few decades.

        So yeah, I hold on to what I originally said. You want occupation? Deal with its consequences. I can’t make it any simpler.

      • ivri on December 19, 2015, 5:12 pm

        @ diaspora
        Yes, regarding your last paragraph, I have to agree (and it is elaborated in my earlier comment) – this saga is unfortunately for the long haul. Life is full with such situations – problems that don`t have easy solutions, or at all, and that includes the political-security realm.
        But then who knows? History is also full with surprises – if you told somebody in Europe in 1916 or 1936 that just few decades later there will be some kind of a lasting peace there, and even some EU format, they would have sent you to check your head. “Life is also about patience” as they say.

      • Mooser on December 19, 2015, 6:30 pm

        “Israel is simply the first to experience things (terror, airplanes hijacking and the victimhood parlance that justifies all that) because of its particular vulnerabilities.

        And nobody else has such a wonderful unique set of “particular vulnerabilities”. Sorry. You wanted ’em, welcome to ’em. Hope the geo-spiritual benefits of the location sorta makes up for it.

      • talknic on December 19, 2015, 7:48 pm

        @ ivri WOW!!! You sure know how to spew it out and tread in it Ziostyle big time

        ” if you told somebody in Europe in 1916 or 1936 that just few decades later there will be some kind of a lasting peace there, and even some EU format, they would have sent you to check your head. “

        But there is in Europe, after just three decades.

        The Zionist colonization of Palestine meanwhile has been going on since 1897, ONE HUNDRED and EIGHTEEN Years. That’s almost TWELVE DECADES.

        That’s FOUR times as long as it took Germany to be reunited. Not even one lifetime.

        Given the life expectancy of a Palestinian in 1897, approx 32 yrs (needs checking), the Zionist Colonization of Palestine has been going on for almost FOUR lifetimes.

        If we only take it from May 15th 1948 when Israel was occupying territories the Israeli Government itself claimed on May 22nd 1948 were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” , it’s 67 years.

        In 1948/50 the life expectancy of a Palestinian was about 47 years.

        Their life expectancy today is 73 years. But today the majority of Palestinians are under 55 yrs, so the majority of Palestinians have been under occupation ALL THEIR LIVES.

        If you told somebody in 1897 that there would not be lasting peace in the region for at least 118 years they would have sent you to check your head

        ” “Life is also about patience” as they say “

        ALL Palestinians alive in 1897 are dead. Most Palestinians alive in 1948 are dead. People run out of patience when they’re dead.

      • RoHa on December 19, 2015, 7:54 pm

        “People run out of patience when they’re dead.”

        Actually, it seems to me that dead people are more patient than the rest of us. They don’t seem to complain very much.

      • talknic on December 19, 2015, 8:51 pm

        @ ivri ” Israel is simply the first to experience things (terror, airplanes hijacking and the victimhood parlance that justifies all that) because of its particular vulnerabilities.”

        A) Save it for someone who’s really stupid

        1. Pre-state Jewish forces were committing acts of terrorism BEFORE Israel was proclaimed http://pages.citebite.com/r2v6p3p4r1hgf
        2. Many passenger airplanes for Jewish terrorists to hijack in 1947/48?

        B) What vulnerabilities? Israel has never had a war in Israeli territories. It has not been invaded or occupied or lost an inch of its proclaimed sovereign extent.

        In fact Israel has illegally acquire approximately half the territory that remained of Palestine after Israel was proclaimed as ” an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″ http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf

      • RoHa on December 19, 2015, 10:31 pm

        There were aeroplane hijackings before Israel came into existence. There were plenty of hijackings before the hijacking of El Al 426 in 1968. This is the first hijacking that I know of that was connected with Israel.

        Except for one. In 1954 Israeli fighter planes forced a Syrian airliner to land in Israel. Does that count?

      • talknic on December 20, 2015, 3:26 am

        @ RoHa “Actually, it seems to me that dead people are more patient than the rest of us. They don’t seem to complain very much”

        It’s still probably far more the Ziocolonizers would like

  8. xanadou on December 19, 2015, 4:47 pm

    Theo,

    I’m glad that we agree on the questionable value of what the best weapons can buy. But they do inflict a lot of damage until the hardware and the boots with a pulse are removed.

    Wars are not about conquest, but economic profitability at both ends of the occupation. Most wars are fought with lethal hardware, others by dominating the local economy with ultra low wages and poverty. When the aggressors’ costs in coin, corpses and domestic unrest exceed the investment output, with or without shots fired, its time to remove the orchestras from the camp gates, and couches and coffee machines from the hilltops, and go home.

    The majority of the human experience is connected to bloodshed, an ancient inheritance from a time with no other options and absent a national coherence. Just consider the decades long modern domination of the phony Israeli narrative on the world’s many platforms.

    Consider the Indian experience, and the example of Mahatma Gandhi who brought an arrogant empire to its knees.

    The Nazi dream of a massive empire had failed because the slave labour employed in German factories managed to sabotage enough of the output, which together with the railroads sabotaged by the Resistance, managed to plant and feed the soldiers’ doubts. No morale, no victory parade; the beginning of the end.

    Fighting with weapons “accomplishes” a winning opening gambit. Then it’s a slow slog largely dependent on improvised strategy to counter the local forces who know the terrain and can count on support from their countrymen.

    It took a while, but eventually the Vietnamese learned their lesson and started to fight back by seeking out support on the political and public relations arenas. It will be eons before the US will be able to retire the massive negative impact of a tiny country negotiating its way to peace.

    India had Gandhi, Vietnam had Ho Chi Minh. The Palestinians have yet to find someone with the necessary charisma and determination.

    Eons ago the Jews had learned the value of making profitable contacts with other societies who would help them survive. Consider the massive value of the Dreyfuss affair.

    A bullet will snuff out a life, a stone will cause a bump. The dead and the injured are promptly forgotten and the futile insanity continues. Not until the Palestinians learn to emulate the example of Gandhi and HCM can they hope to prevail. It starts by finding and supporting a strong, determined and charismatic leader whose name and rhetoric will become known to the entire world.

    The Israelis are hoping that the Palestinians will never learn that basic lesson. Meanwhile the pictures of the dead are dampening the public’s sense of outrage, even interest.

    The experience of the last 68 years has been a continuous exercise in the same-old futility. Time to adapt to the changing times, and move on.

    Or perish.

    • Mooser on December 19, 2015, 8:26 pm

      ” Eons ago the Jews had learned the value of making profitable contacts with other societies who would help them survive. Consider the massive value of the Dreyfuss affair.”

      Ahh! Of course! How could I have forgotten “the massive value of the Dreyfuss affair”. You bet, the massive value. Massive…

      • xanadou on December 20, 2015, 2:21 am

        Sir, I am not an American, the American South does not inform my convictions, and the band does even less for my musical preferences.

        Furthermore, I had used the word ‘massive’ in its quantitative meaning. I had no idea it had qualitative meaning as well…

      • Mooser on December 20, 2015, 11:48 am

        “Sir, I am not an American, the American South…”

        Too late, dude. I got my “three steps toward the door”, and “you won’t see me no more”!
        Always remember: “Surprisingly agile and quick in flight for such an ungainly-looking creature”.
        See you at the next Dreyfus Affair!

      • xanadou on December 20, 2015, 3:38 pm

        Mr. Mooser,
        I notice that rather than debate the issues in my response, you have chosen to the attack the messenger. Ergo: you have no quarrel with my response. So if you agree or don’t care, I fail to grasp the need for the personal attack. No response is expected. Keep running. Watch your step!

        On the other hand you show a rare and tender side with your suggestion re the cops, 911, etc. Points gratefully well taken. And, yes, I have tried that. The advice I got from the uniforms and detectives was “this is not something that we do”, followed by a threat of physical violence if I were to “bother” them again. Another agency responded with: “we don’t cater to individuals”. Which explains why we have the growing number of unopposed “terrorists”, while said authorities arrive after the fact to take pictures of the dead and wounded. The example of “law and order” in a country with 46 L&O agencies and a $1 trillion budget. Monies badly needed to house the homeless, provide low cost, even free education, and to repair the crumbling infrastructure. For starters.

        And no, these are not burglars. They are the 5th column in the service to a foreign government. Yes, the authorities know about them.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius on December 20, 2015, 12:03 pm

      “Consider the Indian experience, and the example of Mahatma Gandhi who brought an arrogant empire to its knees.”

      Not that myth again. Gandhi was important obviously, but he did not bring “an arrogant empire to its knees”. What really did the heavy lifting was the massive violence of WWll, which devastated Britain and made foreign colonies into an unaffordable luxury. Combine that with the fact that British public opinion had turned against empire by the 1940s, and you’ll see that Britain would have let India go anyway, with or without Gandhi.

      “Not until the Palestinians learn to emulate the example of Gandhi and HCM can they hope to prevail. It starts by finding and supporting a strong, determined and charismatic leader whose name and rhetoric will become known to the entire world.”

      I’m not sure if you’re trolling or are being super naive. Any such leader would instantly be slandered by Israel as a ‘terrorist’, and the rest of the world’s media would obediently go along with it. HE would be refused visas to Western countries, assuming of course he hadn’t been imprisoned indefinitely by Israel, which of course he would be. Get real.

      • xanadou on December 20, 2015, 4:31 pm

        The majority of the public either does not want to know the abstract complexity of an occupation, or is unable to grasp it. However, a charismatic figure provides the human focal point that anyone can relate to: like it or not. Che Guevara did not overthrow Batista either. Nor did P. Lumumba end the colonial occupation of the Congo. There are obviously many ways to lead. Lenin may not find much favour with anyone anymore, but he was the rallying figure of his day. As was HCMinh. Some were slaughtered, others were deposed, as was Iran’s Mossadeq, some managed to survive. Some prevailed, some did not. But for a determined patriot/person with the personality that resonates with humanity it’s worth the risk.

        Gandhi understood that it was important to put India in front of the world public: one person, always available to the media who followed his PR tactic to present the issues in a manner that most could grasp. I did not at any point suggest anything other than his role as as a rallying figure. Gandhi was a sophisticated man who understood his opponents very well and did not need to do the heavy lifting. He simply used the unique opportunities at hand to his and India’s advantage.

        Would Israel assassinate such a charismatic figure? Perhaps you’re right and I am naive, or some-such. But as the world sees the gawdawful images, and listens to the catastrophic rhetoric that effectively equates Israel with Nazi Germany by Israel’s own PM, the once nigh on unanimous support has been largely replaced by contempt.

        Killing, even imprisoning such a person with the power to connect with the world population can backfire with a vengeance. Nevertheless, to discount any risky options because this or that might happen is not helpful. The bottom line: the time is right, the desire to take a chance is there, nothing else matters.

      • RoHa on December 20, 2015, 6:06 pm

        ‘Not that myth again. Gandhi was important obviously, but he did not bring “an arrogant empire to its knees”. ‘

        There seems to be an impression that Indian independence was all Ghandi’s own work. All the previous years of building up the movement, the formation of Congress and the Muslim League, and the work of such people as Nehru, Jinnah, and Bose get totally ignored.

        And Ghandi was dealing with the British. As you point out, he was supported by a fair amount of British public opinion. (And American opinion, as well.) Caricature though it sounds, the ideas of freedom, fair play, justice, and tolerance of others really did play a part in British thinking, even if those in power did not live up to those ideals. The Israelis do not have those values. Hardly any of them play cricket.

        Furthermore, even the most imperialist of the British did not deny the Indians the right to live in India. They simply thought that they could run the place better, and should keep on doing so.

      • RoHa on December 20, 2015, 8:21 pm

        Also, after WW1 and WW2, the British public thought of the Indians as comrades-in-arms, not as a threat.

    • Kris on December 20, 2015, 12:27 pm

      xanadou–Ho Chi Minh????? You seem to be advocating Palestinian non-violence; if so, Ho Chi Minh is not your man.

      Ho Chi Minh is to Ghandi as Fidel Castro is to Martin Luther King, Jr.

      Not that Israel would allow either a Ho Chi Minh or a Ghandi to live. Whoever it was would be shot carrying out a “knife attack.”

  9. xanadou on December 19, 2015, 5:15 pm

    While writing my last response, I have been plagued by the hasbara. Which part of – your tactics are not working – do those people not understand?

    Why can they not grasp that their methods, whether online or by employing their local sleeper cell to harrass me at home and contaminating my personal life and privacy, are not working?

    Yes, it’s exhausting, sometimes even depressing, but all I have to think about is the many Jews saved during WW2 by the many, including too many in my own family whose determination at the price of their own lives they considered worth it. Today their vision empowers me to continue, despite their local chapter’s ongoing destruction of my home, the daily home invasions, theft and humiliations that do not work. The harder they try, the more I am determined that I’m on the right path.

    All this as I can hear the trespasser walking around on the upper floor of my house, looking for something to destroy or steal. I am not the only one thusly abused by the obtuse Israeli flunkies.

    Israel would do well to emulate Germany’s example: concede defeat and work towards peace. The alternative is the price of the US experience. Considering the disproportionality in both countries’ sizes, the US will likely prevail. Israel? Not so much.

    The Germans have their own ancient homeland they could retreat into and regroup. Israel does not.

    The US and Germany have time that will work to their benefit.
    Israel does not.

    When will the used and abused Israelis grasp their tenuous position and the growing contempt by nigh on the entire world, which has the added disadvantage to spill onto their coreligionists who choose to live in peace with the rest of humanity?

    • Mooser on December 19, 2015, 7:09 pm

      “All this as I can hear the trespasser walking around on the upper floor of my house, looking for something to destroy or steal.”

      Maybe there’s Chiroptera in the attic where you keep the big bong-bongs?

      • xanadou on December 20, 2015, 2:24 am

        How would you know?

      • Mooser on December 20, 2015, 11:55 am

        “How would you know?”

        “xanadou” don’t waste time arguing with me, call the cops! Call 911! There’s a damn burglar in your place. And ask for a restraining order, to get the harassment stopped, too. Good luck.

    • Kris on December 20, 2015, 4:44 pm

      xanadou: “All this as I can hear the trespasser walking around on the upper floor of my house, looking for something to destroy or steal. I am not the only one thusly abused by the obtuse Israeli flunkies.”

      Do you mean that you are a Palestinian living in Occupied Palestine?

      • xanadou on December 20, 2015, 6:05 pm

        No. I live in a state with the most corrupt police in the country.

        Once it sank in that the local authorities don’t care, I had asked Mossad to rein-in their flunkies, at least in deference to the memory of so many is my family who had saved so many Jews during WW2.
        The continued functioning of the sleeper cell is, apparently, of greater consequence.

  10. calm on December 21, 2015, 12:37 am

    I often wonder why the Palestinians just don’t begin extrajudicial assassinations in cities across the universe, just like Israel does.

    The only way they will win is if Jewish supporters across the world are just as terrified as those living in Palestine are.

    Calm

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