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The political program of the Campaign for One Democratic State in Historic Palestine

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Editor’s Note: On August 6, we published a story by Yoav Haifawi outlining the work and political perspectives of the One Democratic State Campaign, a new initiative seeking to revive the idea of a single democratic state in all of historic Palestine. Below is the first English translation of the campaign’s political program, here are versions in Arabic and Hebrew.

According to Haifawi, the current program was discussed over many meetings in which dozens of supporters took active part. Even as the current version was agreed by several forums of the campaign, the organizers stress the fact that it is only a temporary program. They intend to use it to reach out to many more people, both in 1948 Palestine and in the West Bank, Gaza, Palestinian communities in the exile and the wide international solidarity movement. They hope to hold a wide conference before the year’s end in which the program could be updated according to contributions from new participants and the campaign would be launched on a wider scale.

The Political Program of the Campaign for
One Democratic State in Historic Palestine

PREAMBLE

In recent years, the idea of a one democratic state in all of historic Palestine as the best solution to the conflict has re-emerged. It started gaining increased support in the public domain. It is not a new idea. The Palestinian liberation movement, before the catastrophe of 1948 (the Nakba) and after it, had adopted this vision, including the Palestinian Liberation Organization. The PLO abandoned this idea in the framework of the diplomatic negotiations at the late eighties that led to the Oslo agreement of 1993. The Palestinian leadership hoped that this agreement would enable the building of an independent Palestinian state on the territories that Israel occupied in 1967. But on the ground Israel has strengthened its colonial control, fragmenting the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza into isolated cantons, separated from one another by settlements, checkpoints, military bases and fences. 

The two-state solution, which is basically an unfair solution, is clearly dead. Israel buried it deep under its colonial settlement policies in the territories that were supposed to become the independent Palestinian state. Israel has imposed a single repressive regime that extends over all the Palestinians who live in historic Palestine, including those with Israeli citizenship. 

In view of these dangerous developments, and, more important, based on the values of justice, freedom and democracy, we contend that the only way to achieve justice and permanent peace is dismantling the colonial apartheid regime in historic Palestine and the establishment of a new political system based on full civil equality, and on full implementation of the Palestinian refugees’ Right of Return, and the building of the required mechanisms to correct the historical grievances of the Palestinian people as a result of the Zionist colonialist project.

On this background, many activists and groups, Palestinians and Israelis, have recently initiated the revival of the one-state idea, proposing differing models of such a state, such as a bi-national state, a liberal democratic state and a socialist state. They are all united, however, in their commitment to the establishment of a single democratic state in all of historic Palestine, as an alternative to the colonial apartheid regime that Israel has imposed over the country from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River. A similar regime was toppled by the joint struggle of black and white South Africans under the leadership of the ANC in 1994.

The goal of this political program, as formulated by the One Democratic State Campaign (ODSC), is to widen the support for this solution among the local populations, Palestinian and Israeli alike, as well as among the international public. We call on all those in the world who struggle for freedom and justice to join and support our struggle against this apartheid regime and for the establishment of a democratic state free of occupation and colonialism, based on justice and equality, which guarantees a better future for the next generations and real peace in all of historic Palestine. 

The Political Program

  1. A Single Constitutional Democracy. One Democratic State shall be established between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River as a state belonging to all its citizens, including the Palestinian refugees. All citizens will enjoy equal rights, freedom and security. The State shall be a constitutional democracy, the authority to govern and make laws emanating from the will of the people. All its citizens shall enjoy equal rights to vote, nominate candidates for any post and take part in the country’s governance.
  2. Right of Return, of Restoration and of Reintegration into Society. The single democratic state will fully implement the Right of Return of all Palestinian refugees and their descendants, those who were expelled in 1948 and thereafter, whether living in exile abroad or currently living in historic Palestine, including those with Israeli citizenship. The State will aid them in returning to their country and to the places from which they were expelled. It will help them rebuild their personal lives and to be fully reintegrated into the country’s society, economy and polity. The State will do everything in its power to restore to the refugees their private and communal property and/or compensate them.
  3. Individual Rights. No State law, institution or practices shall discriminate among its citizens on the basis of ethnic identity, national or cultural belonging, or on the basis of color, gender, language, religion, political opinion, property or sexual orientation. The state will grant all its citizens the right to freedom of movement and the right to reside anywhere in the country. The state will guarantee to all the citizens equal rights in all levels and institutions and will guarantee free thought and freedom of opinion. Alongside religious marriage the State will provide civil marriage. 
  4. Collective Rights. Within the framework of a single democratic state, the Constitution will also protect collective rights and the freedom of association, whether national, ethnic, religious, class or gender. Constitutional guarantees will ensure that all languages, arts and cultures can flourish and develop freely. No group or collectivity will have any privileges, nor will any group or collectivity have any control or domination over others. The Constitution will deny the Parliament the authority to enact any laws that discriminate against any community, be it ethnic, national, religious, cultural or class.
  5. Immigration. Normal procedures of obtaining citizenship will be extended to those willing to immigrate to the country.
  6. Constructing a Shared Civil Society. The State shall nurture a vital civil society comprised of common civil institutions, in particular educational, cultural and economic. 
  7. Economy and Economic Justice. Our vision seeks to achieve social and economic justice. Economic policy must address the decades of exploitation and discrimination which have sown deep socioeconomic gaps among the people living in the country. The income distribution in Israel/Palestine is more unequal than in any country in the world. A State seeking justice must develop a creative and long-term redistributive economic policy to ensure that all citizens have equal opportunity to attain education, productive employment, economic security and a dignified standard of living. 
  8. Commitment to Human Rights, Justice and Peace. The State shall uphold international law and seek the peaceful resolution of conflicts through negotiation and collective security in accordance with the United Nations Charter. The State will sign and ratify all international treaties on human rights and its people shall reject racism and promote social, cultural and political rights as set out in relevant United Nations covenants. 
  9. Our Role in the Region. The ODS Campaign will join with all progressive forces in the Arab world struggling for democracy, social justice and egalitarian societies free from tyranny and foreign domination. The State shall seek democracy and freedom in the Middle East, so that the rights of the region’s peoples and citizens will be guaranteed and its many communities, religions, traditions and ideologies shall be respected. That should include respect for the peoples’ right to struggle for equality and freedom of thought. Achieving justice in Palestine will contribute measurably toward these goals and the aspirations of the region’s peoples.
  10. International responsibility. On a global level, the ODS Campaign views itself as a part of the democratic and progressive forces striving for an alternative global order that shall be pluralistic and sustainable, more just, egalitarian and humanistic and free of exploitation, racism, intolerance, oppression, wars, colonialism and imperialism. This new world order will be based on human dignity and respect for the people’s rights to freedom and just distribution of resources and will provide a healthy and sustainable environment.
About One Democratic State Campaign

The One Democratic State Campaign is a new initiative, based currently mostly inside 1948 Palestine. It brings together veteran democratic academics, politicians and activists as well as activists from the emerging youth movements. It aims to create a wide movement that will bring together supporters of democratic alternatives to Zionist colonialism and occupation, finding ways for people from different political backgrounds and holding different ideologies to work together within a pluralistic movement.

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62 Responses

  1. Citizen
    Citizen
    August 15, 2018, 1:36 pm
    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      August 15, 2018, 2:32 pm

      She sounds better and better.
      Wonder when the Demolican party will have her drawn and quartered: when she wins anything (to profit from the powerful vote-corraling effect of a finally-genuine-small-d–democrat) or before (so as not to let the peons’ rebellion go too far.) We’ll see.

    • JWalters
      JWalters
      August 15, 2018, 7:31 pm

      Good link, thanks.

  2. JWalters
    JWalters
    August 15, 2018, 7:24 pm

    A single, non-religious, democratic state was PROMISED to the Palestinians by the British when they governed it. That promise was torpedoed by Zionist terrorists financed by powerful bankers. e.g. http://warprofiteerstory.blogspot.com

    This proposal would merely reverse the results of decades of terrorism.
    “Terrorism: How the Israeli state was won”
    http://mondoweiss.net/2017/01/terrorism-israeli-state

  3. Ottawa observer
    Ottawa observer
    August 16, 2018, 1:40 am

    To gain international support, the program will have to be more explicit, i think, on what protections the probable Jewish minority will have. For example schools, and language.
    Unless they are very confident that they will be treated as equals, the Jews of Israel will fight to the death.
    And unless the west is confident of those protections. it will continue to support the idea of a Jewish state.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      August 16, 2018, 5:42 pm

      “Unless they are very confident that they will be treated as equals, the Jews of Israel will fight to the death.”

      Zionism has no concept of equality. Israelis wouldn’t know equality if it bit them on the elbow.

      “And unless the west is confident of those protections. it will continue to support the idea of a Jewish state.”

      Of course it will. After all, Zionism is founded on faith in the philo-semitism of the West.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 16, 2018, 10:28 pm

        “Zionism has no concept of equality. Israelis wouldn’t know equality if it bit them on the elbow.”

        I don’t agree, Mooser. My guess is that they have a very clear idea of equality, and therefore don’t want anything to do with.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 16, 2018, 11:16 pm

        it.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 17, 2018, 12:54 pm

        “My guess is that they have a very clear idea of equality, and therefore don’t want anything to do with.”

        No doubt they are traumatized by the fate of Jews who emigrated to America, and were betrayed when the US Government refused to recognize Jews as a people. We were relegated to merely being people.

  4. Nathan
    Nathan
    August 16, 2018, 7:03 am

    The proposal for “one democratic state in historic Palestine” is really quite funny. It is supposedly a proposal for resolving the conflict, but those who stand behind it are so anti-Israel that they are totally incapable of understanding the very abc’s of conflict-solving. When you wish to solve a conflict, you are supposed to take into account the interests and aspirations of both sides. In short, both sides to the conflict are supposed to feel that there is a sort of “give-and-take” (and that the balance of the “give-and-take” is positive for BOTH sides). I understand that the anti-Israel activists can’t accept a single aspect of the founding narrative of Israel, but they will have to try to be real intellectuals and to internalize the obvious fact that others see things very differently. You can’t propose a peace plan based on a “let’s agree that I’m right and you’re wrong”.

    Once upon a time the outline for action was the Palestinian National Covenant. This outline was based on the assumption that Israel would be utterly defeated. But, today, it’s obvious that the above proposal is based on the assumption that Israel will not be defeated – and, yet, the very same goals set forward by the Palestinian National Covenant are the expected outcome. It really is beyond absolute silliness.

    • RoHa
      RoHa
      August 16, 2018, 8:11 am

      “When you wish to solve a conflict, you are supposed to take into account the interests and aspirations of both sides. ”

      Bit tricky when the aspiration of one side – the Zionists, in this case – is the complete destruction of the other side.

    • eljay
      eljay
      August 16, 2018, 8:16 am

      || Nathan: The proposal for “one democratic state in historic Palestine” is really quite funny. It is supposedly a proposal for resolving the conflict, but those who stand behind it are so anti-Israel that they are totally incapable of understanding the very abc’s of conflict-solving. When you wish to solve a conflict, you are supposed to take into account the interests and aspirations of both sides. … ||

      The rapist thanks you for defending his “interests and aspirations” in the on-going conflict between him and his victims the women who refuse to accept his right to self-determination.

      IMO the best way to solve a conflict like I-P is through the application of justice, accountability and equality.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso
      August 16, 2018, 11:38 am

      @Nathan

      The entity known as “Israel” will be “defeated” because it is utterly dependent on the U.S. whose “love affair” with “Israel” will inevitably end. Nor does “Israel” produce enough Jewish babies and while emigration of Jews (especially youth) to other countries is soaring, immigration is rapidly declining.

      • catalan
        catalan
        August 16, 2018, 12:21 pm

        “The entity known as “Israel” will be “defeated”” misterioso
        Maybe it will, but here is some news that seems to undermine the effectiveness of BDS:
        “Earlier this month, S&P Global Ratings upgraded Israel’s credit rating for the first time in seven years, to AA-. It was the best report card Israel’s economy has ever had from a rating agency, and a moment to savor.” I don’t know the future, but an upgrade by a rating agency does not seem like a symptom of the kind of damage to the Israeli economy that BDS is attempting to inflict.

      • just
        just
        August 16, 2018, 12:55 pm

        AA- and you’re ‘savoring’ it, too? Meanwhile, Tel Aviv is hugely expensive, many of Israel’s Holocaust survivors are living in abject poverty, etc. ad nauseum.

        I guess the “upgrade” has nothing to do with the endless windfall that the US keeps giving and increasing, eh? Nor with the resources that Israel has stolen and is stealing. You know, like the vast natural gas deposits worth billions…

      • Talkback
        Talkback
        August 16, 2018, 1:16 pm

        Catalan: “Maybe it will, but here is some news that seems to undermine the effectiveness of BDS:”

        So you still don’t understand the scope of BDS and what it has allready achieved.
        https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/14/bds-boycott-divestment-sanctions-movement-transformed-israeli-palestinian-debate

        Keep focusing on the economic aspect. LOL.

      • gamal
        gamal
        August 16, 2018, 2:04 pm

        ” S&P Global Ratings”

        anybody stupid enough to believe standard and poor ratings or lazy enough to invest on the basis of ratings deserves to lose their money, from personal and anecdotal evidence non-Americans are fleeing dollar denominated instruments, i held 25% in various US things until 3 years ago, now I hold less than 100k USD in 0 denominated notes issued by Swiss institutions, because it was easier than transferring everything, currency fluctuations are royal in pain the arse and because they don’t generate income but are secure and that is the issue nowadays, bonds and similar account for 70% of what I hold of which less than 30% are aaa, because in the end nothing beats due diligence, so says all scripture.

        don’t believe the hype. S&P are the swamp, if any one is that is.

        “U.S. government slams S&P with $5 billion fraud lawsuit”

        https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mcgrawhill-sandp-civilcharges-idUSBRE9130U120130206

      • Misterioso
        Misterioso
        August 16, 2018, 2:50 pm

        @catalan

        “Earlier this month, S&P Global Ratings upgraded Israel’s credit rating for the first time in seven years, to AA-. It was the best report card Israel’s economy has ever had from a rating agency, and a moment to savor.”

        Reality regarding Israel’s economy:
        Newsweek – 5/10/18
        EXCERPTS:
        “Israel celebrates its 70th birthday in May with the opening of the U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem. Yet the country is grappling with an existential crisis—one that doesn’t involve Iranian nukes or Palestinian protests. Spurred by the high cost of living, low salaries, and political and demographic trends, Israelis are leaving the country in droves, trying to build their lives elsewhere, mostly in the United States. Many of these young Israelis are moving to big cities, and yet, even in these often expensive places, they see more opportunities to advance.”

        “The available data is telling, analysts say. Between 2006 and 2016, more than 87,000 Israelis became U.S. citizens or legalized permanent residents, according to the most recent data from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. That’s up from 66,000 between 1995 and 2005. These figures take into account only those who took the legal route (many Israelis, analysts say, arrive on temporary tourist, student or work visas, then stay). And in addition to the Israelis now living stateside, according to the country’s Ministry of Immigrant Absorption, hundreds of thousands have moved to Europe, Canada and Newsweek elsewhere.

        “The country’s brain drain isn’t new. For years, many of its most talented scholars and researchers moved to the U.S., where the salaries are far higher and there are more jobs at top-tier universities. One report by Dan Ben-David, an economist at Tel Aviv University, found that the emigration rate of Israeli researchers was the highest in the Western world. Recently, however, the exodus has expanded to include average young people, many of whom say there’s simply no future in Israel.

        “According to government data, 8 percent of Israelis work in high-tech, which pays up to seven times the national average salary of $2,765 a month (before taxes). Israel has one of the highest poverty rates and levels of income inequality in the Western world. Meanwhile, it also has one of the highest costs of living. Tel Aviv ranks ninth among the world’s most expensive cities, higher than New York and Los Angeles; five years ago, it ranked 34th. The situation is so dire that a 2013 survey by the financial newspaper Calcalist (the most recent Israeli study conducted on this topic) found that 87 percent of adults—many with children of their own—depend on substantial financial support from their parents.”

        “…here is some news that seems to undermine the effectiveness of BDS:”

        Reality:
        https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/14/bds-boycott-divestment-sanctions-movement-transformed-israeli-palestinian-debate

        “BDS: how a controversial non-violent movement has transformed the Israeli-Palestinian debate”
        By Nathan Thrall, The Guardian, August 14/18

        “Israel sees the international boycott campaign as an existential threat to the Jewish state. Palestinians regard it as their last resort.

        EXCERPTS:
        “The movement for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions against Israel – known as BDS – has been driving the world a little bit mad. Since its founding 13 years ago, it has acquired nearly as many enemies as the Israelis and Palestinians combined. It has hindered the efforts of Arab states to fully break their own decades-old boycott in pursuit of increasingly overt cooperation with Israel. It has shamed the Palestinian Authority government in Ramallah by denouncing its security and economic collaboration with Israel’s army and military administration. It has annoyed the Palestine Liberation Organization by encroaching on its position as the internationally recognised advocate and representative of Palestinians worldwide.

        “It has infuriated the Israeli government by trying to turn it into a leper among liberals and progressives. It has exasperated what is left of the Israeli peace camp by nudging the Palestinians away from an anti-occupation struggle and towards an anti-apartheid one. It has induced such an anti-democratic counter-campaign by the Israeli government that it has made Israeli liberals fear for the future of their country. And it has caused major headaches for the Palestinians’ donor governments in Europe, which are pressured by Israel not to work with BDS-supporting organisations in the Palestinian territories, an impossible request given that nearly all major civil society groups in Gaza and the West Bank support the movement.

        “In an era of corporate social responsibility, BDS has given bad publicity to major businesses tied up in Israel’s occupation (Airbnb, Re/Max, HP) and helped push other large firms out of the West Bank. It has disrupted film festivals, concerts and exhibitions around the world. It has riled academic and sports organisations by politicising them, demanding that they take a stand on the highly divisive conflict. It has angered Palestinian performers and artists who work with Israeli institutions, accusing them of giving Palestinian cover for Israel’s human rights violations.

        “In the UK, BDS has brought turmoil to courts and local councils, embroiling them in disputes over the legality of local boycotts of settlement goods. In the US, BDS has caused two dozen states to pass bills or issue orders inhibiting or penalising those boycotting Israel or its settlements, pitting Israel’s allies against free speech advocates such as the American Civil Liberties Union. It has ignited debates in Protestant churches in the US, some of the largest of which have divested from companies that profit from Israel’s occupation. It has become the bane of college administrators, forced to adjudicate complaints from BDS-supporting professors and students that their free speech has been stifled, and claims by Zionist faculty, donors and undergraduates that their campuses have become ‘unsafe’ spaces. It has pulled liberals toward greater support for the Palestinians, making Israel an increasingly partisan issue in the US, associated less with Democrats and progressives than with Trump, evangelicals and the far right.

        “In the Jewish diaspora, BDS has created new schisms on the centre-left, which has been forced into a vice by the right wing and pro-settlement Israeli government on one hand, and the non-Zionist left on the other. It has prompted liberal Zionists to grapple with why they sometimes accept the boycott of products from settlements but not the boycott of the state that creates and sustains them. It has compelled Israel’s more critical supporters to justify their opposition to non-violent forms of pressure on Israel, when the absence of real pressure has done nothing to bring occupation or settlement expansion to an end. It has put the onus on liberal Zionists to defend their support not for the abstract ideal of what they hope Israel might one day become, but for the actual, longstanding practices of the state, including expropriations of Palestinian land for Jewish settlement; detention of hundreds of Palestinians without trial or charge; collective punishment of two million Gazans living under a more than decade-long blockade; and institutionalised inequality between Jewish and Palestinian citizens of Israel. BDS has deprived Israel’s liberal supporters of the excuse that an aberrant occupation or right wing governments are mainly to blame for the state’s undemocratic practices.

        “Perhaps most significantly, BDS has challenged the two-state consensus of the international community. In so doing it has upset the entire industry of Middle East peace process non-profit organisations, diplomatic missions and think tanks by undermining their central premise: that the conflict can be resolved simply by ending Israel’s occupation of Gaza, East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank, leaving the rights of Palestinian citizens of Israel and refugees unaddressed.

        “For many diaspora Jews, BDS has become a symbol of evil and repository of dread, a nefarious force transforming the Israel-Palestine debate from a negotiation over the end of the occupation and the division of territory into an argument about the conflict’s older and deeper roots: the original displacement of most of the Palestinians, and, on the ruins of their conquered villages, the establishment of a Jewish state. The emergence of the BDS movement has revived old questions about the legitimacy of Zionism, how to justify the privileging of Jewish over non-Jewish rights, and why refugees can return to their homes in other conflicts but not in this one. Above all, it has underscored an awkward issue that cannot be indefinitely neglected: whether Israel, even if it were to cease its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, can be both a democracy and a Jewish state.”

      • Marnie
        Marnie
        August 19, 2018, 12:41 am

        catalan is obsessed by BDS. As far as your prosperity claims, it’s not felt in my household or among my neighbors. I’m pretty sure the bragging rights exclusively belong to the few families here representing all that wealth. Don’t be so stupid. tRUMP brags 24/7 about how great amerikkka is being made with his tiny little brain and hands and yet wages are stagnant for the 99%. Same here. Find another talking point catalan, you suck at this one too.

  5. dgfincham
    dgfincham
    August 16, 2018, 10:47 am

    Currently two states exist: the State of Israel, declared in 1948, and recognized today by 161 other states; and the State of Palestine, declared in 1988 and recognized today by 138 other states. They are both members of the UN. As recognized states, they both have the right to continue to exist in peace and security.

    I agree with the authors that a single democratic state in historic Palestine has to be the eventual solution, but the only possible way it could come about is by a voluntary union of the two existing states. Neither is going to allow itself to be absorbed by the other.

    There are two distinct peoples living within former Palestine, Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs. They have different histories, different languages, different cultures, different legal systems and different religions. These are national identities, and were recognized as such in the 1921 Carlsbad Resolution of the World Zionist Congress, and in the Mandate as explained in 1922 in the Churchill White Paper.

    Peoples’ national identities are important to them. A one-democratic-state solution that recognizes and preserves national identities and national institutions is more likely to succeed than one which does not.

    How this might work out is explained in the One-State-Two-Nations Proposal.
    http://www.religion-science-peace.org/2017/10/07/the-one-state-two-nations-proposal/

    • eljay
      eljay
      August 16, 2018, 11:21 am

      || dgfincham: … There are two distinct peoples living within former Palestine, Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs. … ||

      Because I’m a simple man, I don’t see why Israelis must be distinctly Jewish or why Palestinians must be distinctly Arab; and, so,
      – as far as I can tell, the two “distinct peoples” living within former (geographic) Palestine are Israelis and Palestinians.

      • dgfincham
        dgfincham
        August 16, 2018, 5:01 pm

        I did not say Israelis MUST be distinctly Jewish, nor that Palestinians MUST be distinctly Arab: but it is a matter of fact that the large majority of their populations are.

        What are the distinctions between Israelis and Palestinians? Israelis are mostly descendants of Jewish immigrants from Europe, Russia and the middle east. Palestinians are mostly descendants of the ancient peoples of Palestine, or of Arab immigrants from neighbouring territories. Israelis speak Hebrew, Palestinians speak Arabic. Most Israelis, if they are religious, say that Judaism is their religion. Palestinians are mostly religious, and say that either Islam or Christianity is their religion. It is these and other factors which express the characters of the two nations.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 16, 2018, 5:35 pm

        “What are the distinctions between Israelis and Palestinians? Israelis are mostly descendants of Jewish immigrants from Europe, Russia and the middle east. Palestinians are mostly descendants of the ancient peoples of Palestine, or of Arab immigrants from neighbouring territories”

        Right-wing Hasbara. Sure, you bet, the colonial invasion and exploitation by the Zionists is just like the movements of people in the ME. You bet.
        Next you’ll tell us the Palestinian identity was developed in response to Zionism, therefore, the Zionists have prior claim!

      • eljay
        eljay
        August 16, 2018, 9:12 pm

        || dgfincham: I did not say Israelis MUST be distinctly Jewish, nor that Palestinians MUST be distinctly Arab: but it is a matter of fact that the large majority of their populations are. … ||

        What you appear to be saying now is that minorities in a country don’t count as “distinct peoples”. Interesting.

      • Marnie
        Marnie
        August 19, 2018, 11:16 am

        @eljay ‘I don’t see why Israelis must be distinctly Jewish or why Palestinians must be distinctly Arab;’

        Maybe I’m reading more than your words meant; I think it’s important to maintain cultural distinctions because they’re beautiful and unique. The onus is on the israelis to actually come up with a culture that hadn’t belonged to someone else. One state for all people!!

      • eljay
        eljay
        August 20, 2018, 10:09 am

        || Marnie: … Maybe I’m reading more than your words meant … ||

        I was puzzled by dgfincham’s Zionist-friendly assertion that there are only two “distinct peoples” in (geographic) Palestine. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I imagine that there are other “peoples” in (geographic) Palestine who consider themselves to be something distinctly other than Israeli Jewish or Palestinian Arab.

        Since Israel exists and Palestine is doing its best to try to exist, IMO the only two “distinct people” anyone should be talking about (at least as far as resolving the I-P issue is concerned) is Israelis and Palestinians.

        || … One state for all people!! ||

        One secular and democratic state – or two – as long as there is full respect for justice, accountability and equality. :-)

      • Marnie
        Marnie
        August 20, 2018, 11:23 am

        I see what you’re saying. Secular and democratic, you bet! I’ve expressed that wish so many times I can’t tell you because of the new archival format (or haven’t figured it out).

      • Marnie
        Marnie
        August 21, 2018, 1:18 am

        I’m not trying to beat a dead horse, but I made a point that was missed I think, that being ‘The onus is on the israelis to actually come up with a culture that hadn’t belonged to someone else. One state for all people!!’ My POV is all cultures should be respected and protected in a democratic secular state for all of its people. As far as I can tell, the zionists don’t have any culture at all, but stole the culture of the indigenous people wherever they chose to, assuming that privilege as an occupying invader/destroyer. But what do I know.

      • eljay
        eljay
        August 21, 2018, 9:08 am

        || Marnie: I’m not trying to beat a dead horse, but I made a point that was missed I think, that being ‘The onus is on the israelis to actually come up with a culture that hadn’t belonged to someone else. … ||

        I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that Israelis have created a culture that is different from the non-Israeli cultures that surround it.

        || … My POV is all cultures should be respected and protected in a democratic secular state for all of its people. … ||

        I’m not sure that the cultures in any given secular and democratic state should be “protected”, but I do agree that they should be respected and allowed to exist as long as they respect the secular and democratic framework of that state.

        || … As far as I can tell, the zionists don’t have any culture at all, but stole the culture of the indigenous people wherever they chose to … ||

        I don’t doubt that Zionists stole some portion of the culture of the people of geographic Palestine. But I also don’t doubt that they blended what they stole with some portion of the cultures imported from their actual homelands throughout the world and “actually came up with” the Israeli culture that exists today.

    • gamal
      gamal
      August 16, 2018, 1:12 pm

      “These are national identities, and were recognized as such in the 1921 Carlsbad Resolution of the World Zionist Congress, and in the Mandate as explained in 1922 in the Churchill White Paper”

      What District Officer Fincham means to say is that the issue of Palestine should be settled according to the parameters set by and needs of the Zionist colonizing movement and Her Majestys’ Government,

      having previously advanced your solution without even having heard of the name Abu Sitta, you give the distinct impression of still not being able to take the Palestinian case seriously or even to address them, while touting your “solution” at Juan Coles site and others, what contacts have you had with Palestinian scholars or representatives?

      “Peoples’ national identities are important to them”

      the whole middle east is a complex mosaic of “identities” which you subsume under “Arab”, Palestinians are Palestinians, that they are “Arabs” is incidental, you give a very strong impression of not knowing what you are talking about, can you not hear that the Arabs are talking you should listen and address them rather than trying to sell your non-solution solution in an attempt to foster discord among Palestinians and their foreign supporters and wellwishers, don’t you think?

      what does Mike Tarazi think of your solution, have you asked him?

      “Arabs” are not soft jigsaw pieces that you can cram into any structure that you please.

      he wrote this in 2004, not very radical but you are more than a decade behind the curve, Officer.

      https://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/04/opinion/two-peoples-one-state.html

      • dgfincham
        dgfincham
        August 16, 2018, 6:05 pm

        “What District Officer Fincham means to say is that the issue of Palestine should be settled according to the parameters set by and needs of the Zionist colonizing movement and Her Majestys’ Government.”

        How dare you say that to me? I am a strong opponent of the Zionist program and Zionist propaganda. I am a strong supporter of the Palestinian cause. Why do you suppose I want to foster discord amongst the Palestinians? Nothing I have ever written could possibly have lead you to such a conclusion. Where does this personal hostility come from?

        If you can give me contact details of Mike Tarazi I would be pleased to have a discussion with him.

        I would like to have a rational discussion with you. Please go to the link I provided, read the proposal and explain to me what are your objections to it.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 16, 2018, 9:38 pm

        “I am a strong opponent of the Zionist program and Zionist propaganda.”

        “There are two distinct peoples living within former Palestine, Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs. They have different histories, different languages, different cultures, different legal systems and different religions. These are national identities, and were recognized as such in the 1921 Carlsbad Resolution of the World Zionist Congress”

        Sounds like Zionist boilerplate to me.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      August 16, 2018, 5:32 pm

      “There are two distinct peoples living within former Palestine, Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs.”

      Gosh, it took the Palestinians 15000 years to become a “distinct people” but “Israeli Jews accomplished the same thing in a mere 70 years or so.
      Amazing.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        August 16, 2018, 6:04 pm

        it took the Palestinians 15000 years to become a “distinct people

        What, that’s news! I was told otherwise this very morning by the most authoritative people. They haven’t made it yet.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 16, 2018, 9:40 pm

        ” They haven’t made it yet.”

        Someday they may even be “Palestinians” and not “Palestinian Arabs”.

      • dgfincham
        dgfincham
        August 17, 2018, 3:49 am

        Mooser. Zionist boilerplate is that there were no Palestinians until they were invented by the KGB in 1964.

        According to the historian Haim Gerber, emeritus professor at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, there has been a distinct Palestinian national identity “stretching back to the time of the Crusades and beyond”. I doubt that “beyond” includes your 15 thousand years. You probably meant to refer to the 15 hundred years since Herodotus wrote that “there is a district in Syria call Palaistine”. But its people were not called Palestinians. They were mostly Israelites, in two kingdoms: Judah in the south with its capital Jerusalem, homeland of the Jews: and Israel in the north, capital Samaria, homeland of the Samaritans. Judah was much smaller in extent than Israel, which included what is now the northern West Bank and northern part of the modern state of Israel. When the Zionists claim that all of Palestine was the historic Jewish homeland, they are wrong. In Byzantime times the were around a million Samaritans: to day there are only a few families. What happened to them? There were numerous massacres and persecutions, but many eventually converted to Christianity and/or Islam, becoming Palestinian Arabs.

        Yes, nations can be created quickly. Italy was created between 1815 and 1871, a bit faster than Israel.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        August 17, 2018, 8:38 am

        Yes, nations can be created quickly.

        Obvious, but that isn’t the point. It’s that they sometimes get undone a lot faster.

        By the way, Italy had been one for a thousand years, give or take.

        Also, I see that you start talk about “distinct peoples” and end with “nations”.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 17, 2018, 12:57 pm

        “Yes, nations can be created quickly. Italy was created between 1815 and 1871, a bit faster than Israel.”

        Gosh, I wonder how they got all those Italian people back to Italy to create Italy so rapidly in those days of slower transportation and communication.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 17, 2018, 1:41 pm

        “When the Zionists claim that all of Palestine was the historic Jewish homeland, they are wrong”

        I thought you told me that the Zionist ‘wrongs’ gave them ‘rights’?

        And wtf does the “historic Jewish homeland” (thank you “Jon s”) have to do with the Zionists who invaded Palestine?

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      August 16, 2018, 6:21 pm

      Peoples’ national identities are important to them

      So what? Can’t those people water and groom them, or whatever one’s supposed to do with “national identities”, in private, without disturbing anyone who doesn’t give a rat’s a$$ about them?

      A one-democratic-state solution that recognizes and preserves national identities and national institutions is more likely to succeed than one which does not.

      You mean it’s more likely to be horrible in the eyes of hardcore Zionist invaders. If those people have any say at all, no project is going anywhere anytime. Forget it. I rather had the impression that this “campaign” statement was directed at reasonable people.

      • RoHa
        RoHa
        August 16, 2018, 10:24 pm

        “I rather had the impression that this “campaign” statement was directed at reasonable people.”

        I think it is, so it won’t reach the Zionists.

      • dgfincham
        dgfincham
        August 17, 2018, 11:14 am

        Article 2 of the universal declaration of human rights:
        Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, POLITICAL OR OTHER OPINION.

        Article 21(1):
        Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

        Hardcore Zionist invaders are human beings. If your project denies them a say in their future governance you will violate their rights and you will fail to create a democratic state.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 17, 2018, 1:07 pm

        “Hardcore Zionist invaders are human beings. If your project denies them a say in their future governance you will violate their rights and you will fail to create a democratic state”

        Once again, the criminal actions of “hardcore Zionist invaders” earn them rights?
        (And besides, hardcore Zionism can’t even fill it’s own gene-pool. They will have to do something)

        So the best thing is for “hardcore Zionist invaders” is to get harder and harder, and earn more rights and validation?

        I thought you are “against the Zionist program”.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        August 18, 2018, 2:34 am

        Fincham,

        Stop BSing.
        Zionists are invaders. Criminals against humanity squatting on other people’s land. Their origin, religion, opinions etc. are irrelevant. As for their offspring, those who belong to the small minority of non-criminals are still in other people’s country without authorization, yet. So much for your screaming about “humans” denied “rights”.

        Now, even a hugely generous compromise by the Palestinian people that admits some or all of the invaders who intend to stay doesn’t have to give collective rights to anyone. Rights and duties on an individual basis have been good enough for a lot of people and countries since 1776. If you can’t stand the idea of living like a human being but must necessarily be in a herd, you can always do so in private.

        Recognizing separate collectives in law would mean continuing the invaders’ oppression in yet another form.
        Which is what you are defending so passionately.

        Anyway, your Zionist friends in Palestine and the US aren’t likely to ever learn to bend. Which means that if they cannot manage to complete the genocide of the Palestinians soon enough, they’ll have to be broken.

      • catalan
        catalan
        August 18, 2018, 7:57 pm

        “Requires the expulsion of all invaders and offspring” echi
        The understated charm of this phrasing explains the effectiveness of BDS.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        August 19, 2018, 12:00 am

        That Catalan objection on BDS is downright ehm, Goebbelsian . Since when has BDS as an official movement, or a majority of boycotters, indicated full justice as a goal? And who was even talking about boycott etc.? Looks like Catalan is a firm believer in the boycott-only miracle approach.

  6. Ossinev
    Ossinev
    August 16, 2018, 10:52 am

    @Nathan
    “In short, both sides to the conflict are supposed to feel that there is a sort of “give-and-take” (and that the balance of the “give-and-take” is positive for BOTH sides)”LOBL

    You Ziozombies have certainly lived up to the “take” side of the equation as laid out by your dear old Zioracist pater familias Ben Gurion:
    https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/old-will-die-and-young-will-forget-did-ben-gurion-say-it

    Land,property,civil rights,cuisine – oh and lives. Lots and lots of lives particularly young innocent lives . Name it and Zios have taken it and all in pursuit of the Greater Zionist Reich .The single most important things that you have not been able to “take” has been and will continue to be the the dignity of the Palestinian people and their Sumud.

    Always remember that when you swim in a sewer you won`t come out smelling of roses.

    Tick tick

  7. dgfincham
    dgfincham
    August 18, 2018, 4:44 am

    Replies to Mooser

    August 16, 2018, 9:40 pm

    |Someday they may even be “Palestinians” and not “Palestinian Arabs”

    Of course, they are Palestinians. I only use the phrase “Palestinian-Arabs” when discussing their national identity. They are Arabs because they speak Arabic, and a common language is one of the hallmarks of a nation. Also, the foreign jews who migrated to Palestine under the Mandate called themselves Palestinians and founded a newspaper called the Palestine Post (now the Jerusalem Post). Technically, all Israeli Jews living outside the Partition Line are living in Palestine and could therefore be called Palestinians, but they are not part of the Palestinian Arab nation.

    August 17, 2018, 1:41 pm

    |I thought you told me that the Zionist ‘wrongs’ gave them ‘rights’?

    No. If you are talking about human rights, they apply to “Everyone” – including criminals.
    If you are talking about the right of the State of Israel to exist, that was given by the States that recognized Israel as a State.

    | What does the “historic Jewish homeland” have to do with the Zionists who invaded Palestine?

    They claimed a right to settle in Palestine because it was their historic homeland. I pointed out that their historic homeland was a very small part of Palestine, and that the rest of Palestine was the historic homeland of the Samaritans, whose descendants are now Palestinian Arabs. (Well, some may have converted to Judaism and are now Israeli Jews.)

    August 17, 2018, 1:07 pm

    |Once again, the criminal actions of “hardcore Zionist invaders” earn them rights?

    Once again, rights are not ‘earned’. They apply to everyone, including criminals.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      August 18, 2018, 11:00 am

      Once again, rights are not ‘earned’. They apply to everyone, including criminals.

      Only in this case, Fincham is claiming for criminals the right to be immune from retribution.

      The only right of invaders is to be kicked out of wherever they invade. And invasion does not give a right of citizenship or residency of self or offspring.

      Your defense of special rights for invaders is Zionist arrogance in response to an unbelievably generous compromise offer by some Palestinians (pending collective approval by a majority of Palestinians, collectively the sole owners of sovereignty in all of Palestine.)

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      August 18, 2018, 5:14 pm

      “Once again, rights are not ‘earned’. They apply to everyone, including criminals.”

      Absolutely! The right to an impartial investigation, speedy trial, a defense, no cruel or unusual punishment, etc.

  8. dgfincham
    dgfincham
    August 18, 2018, 11:11 am

    Reply to echinococcus August 18, 2018, 2:34 am

    | So much for your screaming about “humans” denied “rights”.

    Yes, I believe in the Universal Declaration of human rights, which apply to “Everyone”. Do you?

    | Recognizing separate collectives in law would mean continuing the invaders’ oppression in yet another form. Which is what you are defending so passionately.

    Please read the One-State-Two-Nations Proposal carefully. http://www.religion-science-peace.org/2017/10/07/the-one-state-two-nations-proposal/ There is nothing in it which would allow either nation to oppress the other.

    I do not defend any form of oppression. I am a passionate opponent of Zionism, and a passionate supporter of the Palestinian people.

    |Anyway, your Zionist friends in Palestine and the US aren’t likely to ever learn to bend. Which means that if they cannot manage to complete the genocide of the Palestinians soon enough, they’ll have to be broken.

    I do not have any ZIonist friends, but if I did I would be very alarmed by your statement that “they’ll have to be broken”.

    • echinococcus
      echinococcus
      August 18, 2018, 4:34 pm

      Hard of hearing, Fincham? Who opposed human rights? It’s just that you definitely sound like you’re defending the human right to invade somebody else’s land and squat on it unauthorized, among other things we mortals consider criminal in the extreme. Or, if we discount some of your exaggerated expression, at the very least a “human right” to have officially sanctioned “identity” collectives.

      And I see a huge lot of horrible things that any recognition of “collective rights”, back to Ottoman dark ages, will bring with it. Especially the continued invader domination on the life of all, which I won’t bother to list in detail when lots of my betters have already done so. On another tack, reread “The Rights of Man” to familiarize yourself with what “secular and democratic” might mean.

      Anyway, strict justice still requires the expulsion of all invaders and offspring if not authorized by the owners of the land. Anything short of that is not the implementing of human rights but gracious concessions, volunteered to people ready to collaborate.

      As for who doesn’t bend having to break, read this by good old La Fontaine (not a good translation by any standards, but conveys the idea):
      http://www.aestheticrealism.net/poetry/Oak-Reed-LaFontaine.htm

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus
        August 20, 2018, 9:28 pm

        OK, Fincham, let’s say that you are fighting against Zionism by working your bottom off to
        – ensure that the Zionist invaders remain in Palestine and in power,
        – disarm all legitimate resistance to the Zionist invader.

        If you were a Palestinian, I suppose you could survive as a collaborator.

    • Mooser
      Mooser
      August 18, 2018, 5:20 pm

      “I do not have any ZIonist friends, but if I did I would be very alarmed by your statement that “they’ll have to be broken”.

      And that’s why. If you actually knew some Zionists, maybe you would see what he means.

      • dgfincham
        dgfincham
        August 19, 2018, 4:52 pm

        I have never written a single sentence that defends any aspect of Zionism.

        Scotsmen have a right to be Scottish. Englishmen have a right to be English. These two identity collectives are officially sanctioned as two nations within the United Kingdom. Neither dominates the other. It is a system that has worked well for over three hundred years. There is at least a possibility that it could work in the case of Israel and Palestine. At least, it is worth thinking about.

        What is your alternative? Expulsion of the invaders? Let me point out that Israeli citizens born and brought up in Israel (and these are probably a majority by now) are not invaders. To punish them for the the sins of their fathers would be an injustice in itself, and replying to injustice with another injustice does not produce perfect justice. And if you think it would be possible to carry out such an expulsion, you are living in dreamland. Israel has the big guns, and its big brother the USA has bigger ones.

        You will say that they are all Zionists. But that is not their fault. Israeli Jews are immersed in Zionism from cradle to grave. It is in the schools, the synagogues, the Knesset, the courts, the IDF. It is Zionism that needs to be bent until it breaks, and that is the business I am in. If you look at my articles on Mondoweiss you will see they are all about exploding the Zionist narrative.

        If you say that the Zionists need to be bent until they break (and this includes you Mooser) you are inciting violence, and that makes you the criminal.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 19, 2018, 8:05 pm

        “And if you think it would be possible to carry out such an expulsion, you are living in dreamland. Israel has the big guns, and its big brother the USA has bigger ones.”

        And they are going to use them to force Jews to stay in Palestine? What expulsion?
        The consequences of Zionism are such that any move towards Palestinian equality (access to the courts, access to politics, to start with) would send any rational Israeli fleeing. They must not be forced to stay!

        OBTW, what is the minimum number of Zionist Jews needed to make a viable Zionist Jewish State in Palestine? This should be considered.

      • Mooser
        Mooser
        August 19, 2018, 8:22 pm

        “I have never written a single sentence that defends any aspect of Zionism.”

        and then:

        “You will say that they are all Zionists. But that is not their fault. Israeli Jews are immersed in Zionism from cradle to grave. It is in the schools, the synagogues, the Knesset, the courts, the IDF. It is Zionism that needs to be bent until it breaks”

        And you can bend Zionism til it breaks, but not mangle any Zionists in the process? Ho-Kay

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        August 19, 2018, 8:47 pm

        @Mooser

        I seem to recall a couple of regimes that didn’t allow Jewish people to leave… Hmmm Russia was one. Another was…..

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        August 19, 2018, 8:52 pm

        @fincham
        ” It is Zionism that needs to be bent until it breaks, and that is the business I am in. If you look at my articles on Mondoweiss you will see they are all about exploding the Zionist narrative.”
        “If you say that the Zionists need to be bent until they break (and this includes you Mooser) you are inciting violence, and that makes you the criminal.”

        Could you explain the apparent contradiction?

        Regardless it is bs. Even if correct violence against a violent state and society is not inappropriate. That is solely the choice of the Palestinian people who are the victims of a homocidal and genocidal state.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer
        August 19, 2018, 8:58 pm

        @fincham

        Ah ok I got ya. I could delete my prior reply but I will leave it there and take my due responses.

        Still silly. Attempting to bend zionism without bending zionists? Risible.

  9. Mooser
    Mooser
    August 19, 2018, 7:52 pm

    “If you say that the Zionists need to be bent until they break (and this includes you Mooser) you are inciting violence, and that makes you the criminal.”

    Yeah, and a moser, a meshumad and a shaigetz ainer into the bargain.

    • Brewer
      Brewer
      August 21, 2018, 4:17 am

      “If you say that the Zionists need to be bent until they break (and this includes you Mooser) you are inciting violence, and that makes you the criminal.”

      Hyperbole. Bending racists can be achieved without violence as the histories of Martin Luther King, Gandhi and their ilk attest. You are in fine company.

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