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Tom Friedman’s belief in an ‘ancestral homeland’ is a toxic myth and not history — Updated

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Reading a recent post, I made the critical error of clicking on the link to a Thomas Friedman column. I will not engage Friedman’s screed against Ilhan Omar – for the record, I’m on Team Ilhan – because I believe Friedman has too much blood on his keyboard to be seriously engaged. I will, however, take exception to an aside of his. Friedman writes:

I am not dual loyal. I always put America first, but I want to see Israel thrive – just like many Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, and Indian-Americans and others feel about their ancestral homelands.

Don’t know how to break it to you, Tom, but Israel isn’t your ancestral homeland. You were born in Minnesota in 1953. Your parents also lived in the US. Wherever your grandparents came from, it wasn’t Israel, since it didn’t exist at the time.

What you’re referring to, Tom, without even noticing it, is the myth that Jews today are all the descendants of Jews who once lived in Palestine, and as such have an eternal right to the land. This is the founding myth of Zionism, and it often masquerades as history. Let’s blow it up, shall we?

Let’s get back to 516 BC. The date isn’t random: this is the approximate time the Persian king Cyrus the Great issued his declaration which allowed Jews to return to Judea and rebuild Jerusalem. We need a snapshot of Judaism in 516 BC, and we’ll go on from there.

The term “Jew” is fuzzy at this time. Historians refer to people of the time as “Judaic”, that is some sort of proto-Jews. Seventy years earlier, the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar razed Jerusalem and exiled most of the skilled workers of Judea to Babylon. Most of the “common folk” (עם הארץ) remained, however, in Palestine.

So, there’s a large Judaic community in Babylon and the Persian Empire; a smaller but significant Judaic community in Egypt, near Yeb (they left impressive records), which will soon also come under Persian rule; and a Judaic community in Judea, of which we know absolutely zilch.

Not all Babylonian Jews were overjoyed by Cyrus’s declaration: Jerusalem had always been a hellhole, and in 516 it was literally an uninhabited dump. Most of the Jews decided to cleave to the dictates of the prophet Jeremiah (chapter 29):

“Build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them; take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters […] and seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the lord for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace.”

The colonizing column which left Babylon for Jerusalem was relatively small, and its leaders whined about it endlessly. They reached Judea, and the first thing they did was clash with the rather surprised local Judaic community. The leader of the colonizers, Ezra the Scribe, was a Jehovaist, i.e. a strict follower of Jehovah; and most of the Judaic people had some doubts about this deity. Jeremiah again (this time chapter 44):

“Then all the men […] answered Jeremiah, saying: As the word thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not harken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatever thing goeth forth out of to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.”

The Jehovaists were a relatively new cult (this is too long to go into here; maybe another post), and they had an uphill fight.  Ezra demanded that the local Judaic community divorce and expel all the “foreign” women living in the community, as having a foreign woman was an affront to Jehovah; we don’t know what precisely happened then, as we have only Ezra’s version. But Ezra was an official of the king, and his word was sort-of law; so many of the local Judaic community left in a huff, presumably twisting a finger near their temple.

Shortly afterwards, for reasons unknown, the Jerusalem community promptly collapsed. Dunno, maybe expelling all those people was a not such a good idea.

Some unknown years later, likely around 20 or so, another attempt at building Jerusalem, this time by Nehemiah (another Jewish-Persian official), succeeded. At this time the Second Temple, by all accounts an unimpressive affair, was built. Nehemiah moans a lot about interference from people who might just be the people Ezra expelled, but we can’t know for certain.  And then Jewish history slides into a black hole.

We have little knowledge about what happens to the Judean community between 496 and 332, when Alexander the Great appears on the scene. We know that the priests became the ruling caste, and we know of one case when a high priest was assassinated in the Temple, whereupon his friend, the Persian pasha, entered the Temple, took out the body and brought it to proper burial. According to priestly myth, the priests protested the pasha’s entrance into the temple; they said he was impure. The pasha’s furious reply was “Am I more impure than the body lying in the Temple?” But we don’t even know when this happened. Herodotus, the father of history, is in the region in the 480’s, but he doesn’t mention either Jews or Jerusalem; supposedly they weren’t important enough.

When Alexander comes on the scene circa 330, and with him people who actually know how to write history, we have a different snapshot of Jewish communities. There is a very large Jewish community in Persia, Syria, and Asia Minor; there is a huge, and hugely important, Jewish community in Egypt; and there is a relatively small community in Judea, with Jerusalem a minor city.

There are enough Jews around for Alexander to grant them several privileges, which will be kept for centuries and be ratified by the Caesars. Jews are exempt from work on the Sabbath, pay 1/7 less tax, are exempt from military duties, and there’s good reason to believe they were exempt from all taxes every seventh year (the shemitah). Not bad.

Judea is unfortunately placed between Syria and Egypt, and so became the prime marching land for the armies of Ptolemaic Egypt and Seleucid Syria. The region changes hands several times. Then comes the Hasmonean rebellion.

The issue is messy in the extreme, so we’ll stick to the basic political facts. When the dust settles, there is a large Hasmonean kingdom, unloved by the Jewish people and hated by basically everyone else. This kingdom uses the inner collapse of the Seleucid Empire to bite off bits of Syria and what is today Jordan. It extends so far, at one point a major security issue is the Armenian Empire. Then, in 63 BC, Pompey comes along to stabilize the east, settles a Hasmonean civil war by taking Jerusalem and entering the Holy of Holies, and basically anoints Herod as king.

By this time, Judaism is a phenomenon to be reckoned with all through the Known World (oecumene, i.e. the world known to the Greeks and Romans). There are large communities all over Asia Minor, Jews are a major factor in Egypt (where they run the army), there are large communities of Jews in Greece (where they were unknown in Alexander’s time), and a large and vibrant community in Rome itself. The latter, outraged by Pompey’s defiling the Holy of Holies, would give a major financial boost to Julius Caesar in his civil war with Pompey; and once Caesar wins, he would bestow privileges upon the Jewish religious communities. Historians estimate that at this point, or close to it (4 BC, the alleged birth of Jesus, is commonly used as a benchmark), one in every ten residents of the Roman World is a Jew.

Again: 10% of the residents of the Roman Empire were Jewish circa 4 BC. That’s a very long way from the “who?” period of Herodotus’ visit to Palestine, and the communities are much, much stronger than they were even in Alexander’s time.

What happened? Jewish history is stubbornly silent on this point (or, for that matter, just about any other point), but all the evidence (particularly the archeological one) points to a massive campaign of conversion to Judaism, lasting centuries. Like Protestantism much later, Judaism had much to offer to a burgeoning middle class: seriousness, piety, stability, honesty, and a network of Jewish centers everywhere. Presumably that 1/7 reduction in taxes and the exemption from military service didn’t hurt, either.

In fact, Jews are all over the place – unless that place is Palestine. And they make the priestly caste obsolete even before the Second Temple is destroyed. Jerusalem is away and awful. Every community builds its own synagogue and – evidence is sketchy – likely has a rabbi by the 2nd century BC. A rabbi, not a priest. Technically, every Jew has to make it to the Temple at least on Passover and sacrifice; this is too unwieldy, so what happens is that every community sends a representative with money, who then buys cattle in the name of the entire community in Jerusalem, where it is then sacrificed. We’re talking huge amounts of money, moving all across the known world – and Hellenistic kings and Caesars alike make sure these convoys are not messed with.

To summarize:

Circa 4 BC, 10% of the Empire is Jewish. And there are plenty of Jews in the rival empire, the Parthian one.

The vast majority of those Jews were neither born, nor lived, in Palestine. Onwards.

Roman rule rubs the Al Qaeda faction of the Judea Jews – they preferred the name “zealots” – the wrong way. There are constant rebellions. Jesus’s reply to the question whether it is permitted to use coins with the face of the Caesar – “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s” – may be trollish, but the question was real. After all, the Caesars encouraged worship of themselves, which made the coins articles of avoda zara, idol worship. Zealots claimed control of Jerusalem by heathen rulers was offensive to God.

How many people supported them, and how many opposed them? Excellent question, to which we have no good answer. Obviously the elite opposed the zealots and the idea of war with Rome.

Then again, the elite of the Roman world was – everywhere – collaborationist. That’s how it got to be the elite. And we know there was real hatred between the common folk and the elites – priests and rabbis both.

Be that as it may, in 70 AD Roman armies set the Temple ablaze. If that was offensive to God, he left no comment. From that point onwards, Judaism did not have a center. There was, however, no exile.

I’ll repeat it: there was no exile.

For starters, the Romans did not have an infrastructure for a massive exile. Certainly, the 66-70 war caused massive bloodshed among Judean Jews. We have no idea as for the numbers, but they must have been great. And the Romans did sell tens of thousands into slavery – so many slaves, in fact, that slave prices dropped all over the empire.

But Judean Jewry continued to exist. Sixty years later, there would be enough angry Jews there for another rebellion, The Bar Kochva debacle. Legend has it that when the last rebel city, Betar, fell, the Romans were up to their knees in blood. The war was certainly a bad one for the Romans; they went to a lot of effort to wipe it from the records.

But, again, there was no exile. And 70 years later, the Jewish community in Judea was in its finest bloom: the collaborationist elite would write the Mishnah, there would be previously unknown wealth all over the place, and new synagogues everywhere.

Whereupon we reach the calamitous 3rd Century AD, and the empire begins to collapse. By the end of the 4th century, most Jews of the empire would disappear. There is only one recorded pogrom. We can safely assume they did what many Pagans did: they converted to Christianity when the emperors converted and staying non-Christian became too onerous. (We’ll leave the baffling episode of Julian the Apostate and the Third Temple for another time.)

Then the rabbis and the Talmud cloak it all up. They come up with the myth that “because of our sins, we have been exiled from our land and pushed away from our homeland.” It’s certainly a better line then “look, we tried to work with the Romans and fucked it all up,” but it has nothing to do with historical fact. It’s a myth; but it’s a myth repeated endlessly in prayer, and it is a myth which allowed people who were often despised and sometimes persecuted to believe in redemption: “Return to us, O Lord, our judges as before, and councilors as of old; remove from us sadness and all moaning, and reign upon us you alone, O God, in grace and mercy, and find us just in our trial. Blessed be thee, God, a king loving justice and judgement.”

And this is the myth that allows Tom Friedman to somehow believe Israel is his “ancestral homeland”, and the myth under whose spells 18-year-old Jewish boys kill 14-year-old Palestinians.

The myth that there is a Jewish Homeland, when there was never any. The desperate plea of a downtrodden people, transformed by Zionism into a toxic myth.

Myth isn’t history, and it doesn’t convey any rights. Before we fight the myth, we need to know it is a myth. You shall know the truth, and it will make you sick.

Update: A note on sources

Following my post on the “ancestral homeland myth”, several people asked for sources.

As I noted in the post, we know absolutely zilch about what happened in Judea during the building of the Second Temple and the two centuries following. I’ve used Biblical sources and Josephus’ “Antiquities of the Jews” – all problematic, but we simply don’t have others. I tried to give the Biblical sources the necessary subversive twist, showing the sources actually counter the intention of their editor.

For this reason, I omitted the Hasmonean period entirely – we simply don’t have good enough sources about the rebellion, what came afterwards and the internal struggle within the princedom/kingdom of Judea at the time. I have my own opinions, of course, and may publish them in another post (next Hannukah?); but we are once again shadow-boxing here and every contention I make is likely to be hotly contended by many.

The numbers of Jewish residents in the Empire in the late century BC is not much in dispute. Jewish historians have shied away from the idea of mass conversion to Judaism, and I am thankful for the person I consider my mentor, Boaz Evron of blessed memory, for arguing the issue forcefully in his Ha’Heshbon Ha’Leumi (Hebrew, 1988).

Regarding the issue of the lack of exile itself, the focus of the piece: several years ago, during the Shlomo Sand debate – which produced plenty of heat but little light – every serious Israeli historian admitted that the idea of a mass exile by the Romans has no basis in actual historic evidence. The fact that most Jews lived out of Judea in 70 AD, when the Temple was destroyed, is also not disputed among historians. (It’s worth noting the debt Sand owes to Evron, which he acknowledges.)

Lay people, of course, do. But they do so because they are relying on myths, not history.

 

Yossi Gurvitz
About Yossi Gurvitz

Yossi Gurvitz is a journalist and a blogger, and has covered the occupation extensively.

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190 Responses

  1. eljay
    eljay on March 19, 2019, 12:55 pm

    Friedman isn’t a well-preserved ancient Israelite or ancient Judean. He’s not even a middle-aged Israeli. He’s just a run-of-the-mill Jewish supremacist (Zionist) who – like all Zionists – believes that the religion-based identity of Jewish grants to those like him who have chosen to embrace it the “right”:
    – to Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of geographic Palestine; and
    – to do unto others acts of injustice and immorality they would not have others do unto them.

    Friedman is a hateful and immoral supremacist and hypocrite. He is, in a nutshell, a Zionist.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 19, 2019, 1:13 pm

      And isn’t it interesting that, for all his supposed ‘love’ for Israel, Friedman has chosen not to live there. Same with Alan Dershowitz and all those American Zionists who claim that Jews ‘need’ Israel but they themselves much, much prefer to enjoy all the privilege and wealth they have obtained through living in a country which, though almost entirely Gentile, still belives at least in theory that everyone is equal, regardless of race or religion.

      • Kay24
        Kay24 on March 20, 2019, 10:07 am

        Good point. Perhaps Mr. and Mrs. Adelson should lead the way.

      • JWalters
        JWalters on March 20, 2019, 10:24 pm

        And they all believe that the normal, modern standards of international justice are overruled by an ancient Jewish book. So it’s ok for them to re-create the ancient butchery from that ancient book.

        But with high tech weapons, that should so impress the world it will allow a few gratuitous slaughters.

        Those and cherry tomatoes.

      • Brewer
        Brewer on March 21, 2019, 4:30 am

        “So it’s ok for them to re-create the ancient butchery from that ancient book.”
        Yes but how ancient is that book.
        Russel Gmirkin argues that the Hebrew Pentateuch was composed in its entirety about 273-272 BC.
        https://www.amazon.com/Berossus-Genesis-Manetho-Exodus-Hellenistic/dp/0567025926
        I haven’t read his book (look at the price!) but I have read a bit about it.
        There seems to be a few of us (Myserioso, JWalters) who take an interest in the Historical underpinnings of what informs much of Western thought, philosophy and culture that has led us to this pass – those concepts that have made their way into our “think”, our ideas of justice and (dare I say it), “truth”.
        I think exploring the origins is a worthy pursuit.
        One thing Gmirkin mentioned in an interview that struck me as a possible key to verifying his thesis is that, up until around 300BC, Judaics remained polytheistic. If that is indeed so, it would give great weight to his thesis. I have yet to find independent evidence of this and, quite frankly, I don’t know where to look. If anyone out there has any info I’d appreciate it.
        We do know that some of the stories in the Pentateuch are drawn from other traditions (Adam and Eve, Noah and the flood) and from Joseph Campbell we learn that similar stories appear in the Upanishads. I haven’t managed to find that particular vid but here are a couple from that remarkable man who was able tor free himself from the prison of Western, Judeo/Christian thought.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPt23KuW-ZM

      • JWalters
        JWalters on March 21, 2019, 6:44 pm

        Brewer, thanks for that info. British WWII reporter Douglas Reed also proposed a theory that the ancient Israelite teachings, such as “welcome the stranger”, were overwritten by those who put the ancient teachings into writing. In his re-construction, these writers put in the bloodthirsty, war profiteering insanity we find in the Old Testament today.

      • Sibiriak
        Sibiriak on March 21, 2019, 9:19 pm

        JWalters: …modern standards of international justice are overruled by an ancient Jewish book.
        —————————————————————————————————–

        An ancient Christian book as well.

        … in an interview with the Christian Broadcasting Network, President Donald Trump’s Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, chose to mark the occasion by suggesting that Trump is, in fact, a modern-day Queen Esther who could have been chosen by God to save Israel from Iran.

        “Jews worldwide and in Jerusalem are talking about the fact that Esther 2,500 years ago saved the Jewish people, with God’s help, from Haman,” the interviewers asked him. “And now, 2,500 years later, there’s a new Haman here in the Middle East that wants to eradicate the Jewish people just like Hama did: the state of Iran. Could it be that President Trump right now has been sort of raised for such a time as this, just like Queen Esther, to help save the Jewish people from the Iranian menace?”

        “As a Christian, I certainly believe that’s possible,” said Pompeo. “It was remarkable … to see the remarkable history of the faith in this place and the work that our administration’s done to make sure that this democracy in the Middle East, that this Jewish state remains. I am confident that the Lord is at work here.”

        https://www.alternet.org/2019/03/mike-pompeo-stokes-bizarre-theological-belief-that-trump-was-chosen-by-god-to-to-help-save-the-jewish-people/

      • YoniFalic
        YoniFalic on March 23, 2019, 10:58 am

        Thus white racist neo-Confederate Redeemers and white racist Zios, who also represent a type of redeemer, reduce foreign policy, international politics, and international relations to a pissing contest among scripture.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso on March 20, 2019, 9:55 am

      @eljay, etal

      Good grief! I can’t believe that Thomas Friedman is still pushing the long since utterly debunked myth that he and his ilk are descendants of the ancient Hebrews and hence, had/have the right to colonize, dispossess and expel Palestine’s indigenous Christian and Muslim inhabitants and create an expansionist, racist, fascistic “Jewish state.”

      Firstly, as determined conclusively by recent in depth DNA analysis, today’s Palestinians and their ancestors, have lived continuously between the River and the Sea for about 15,000 years** (see below.)

      The Jebusite/Canaanites were ancestors of today’s Palestinians and it was they who founded Jerusalem around 3000 BCE. Originally known as Jebus, the first recorded reference to it as “Rushalimum” or “Urussalim,” site of the sacred Foundation Rock, appears in Egyptian Execration Texts of the nineteenth century BCE, nearly 800 years before it is alleged King David was born. Its name “seems to have incorporated the name of the Syrian god Shalem [the Canaanite God of Dusk], who was identified with the setting sun or the evening star…and] can probably be translated as ‘Shalem has founded’.” (Karen Armstrong, Jerusalem, One City, Three Faiths; Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1996, pp. 6-7)

      Thus far, no credible archaeological evidence, or more importantly, writings of contemporaneous civilizations, have been found that prove Solomon or David actually existed. (Nor has any real evidence been discovered to confirm that the Jewish exodus from Egypt ever occurred.)

      Renowned Jewish Israeli writer/columnist, Uri Avnery: “[David and Solomon’s] existence is disproved, inter alia, by their total absence from the voluminous correspondence of Egyptian rulers and spies in the Land of Canaan.” (“A Curious National Home,” by Uri Avnery, May 13/17
      (http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1494589093/)

      It is estimated that the Hebrews did not invade until circa 1184 BCE and their resulting United Kingdom of Israel, which never controlled the coast from Jaffa to Gaza, lasted only about 75 – 80 years, less than a blip in the history of Canaan and Palestine. Even the Hasmonean Dynasty under the Maccabees lasted only about 70 years (circa 140 – 70 BCE) and it was under Roman tutelage. By way of comparison, the Crusaders occupied Palestine in whole or in part for about 200 years; Egyptians ruled the region between the River and the Sea for 615 intermittent years, including the era of the Muslim Mamelukes; the Romans ruled the region for 677 continuous years. It was also ruled for several centuries by two other peoples: the Arabs (Muslims), for 447 continuous years (638-1085) and the Ottoman Turks (Muslims), for 401 uninterrupted years (1517-1918).

      Jewish missionaries converted many pagan peoples to their faith in the Middle East, including Palestine, as well as Africa, Asia and Europe, especially during the two centuries preceding Christianity. Also, the Zionist claim that descendants of those Jews allegedly expelled from Palestine by the Romans have lived apart throughout the world for nearly two millennia and not intermingled with people outside of their religion is absurd. To quote Polish born David Ben-Gurion (real name, David Gruen): “‘race’ does not unite Jewry since the ancient people dissipated after so much dispersion.” (Philippe de Saint Robert, Le Jeu de la France en Mediteranee ,1970, p.182)

      Renowned historian/anthropologist and “Holy Land” specialist, Professor Ilene Beatty: “When we speak of ‘Palestinians’ or of the ‘Arab population [of Palestine]‘, we must bear in mind their Canaanite origin. This is important because their legal right to the country stems… from the fact that the Canaanites were first, which gives them priority; their descendants have continued to live there, which gives them continuity; and (except for the 800,000 dispossessed refugees [of 1948 along with the further hundreds of thousands expelled before and after the war Israel launched on 5 June 1967]) they are still living there, which gives them present possession. Thus we see that on purely statistical grounds they have a proven legal right to their own land.” (“Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan,” 1957)

      ** http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fgene.2017.00087/full
      Front. Genet., 21 June 2017 | https://doi.org/10.3389/fgene.2017.00087

      “The Origins of Ashkenaz, Ashkenazic Jews, and Yiddish”

      “Recent genetic samples from bones found in Palestine dating to the Epipaleolithic (20000-10500 BCE) showed remarkable resemblance to modern day Palestinians.”

      Furthermore:
      “The non-Levantine origin of AJs [Ashkenazi Jews] is further supported by an ancient DNA analysis of six Natufians and a Levantine Neolithic (Lazaridis et al., 2016), some of the most likely Judaean progenitors (Finkelstein and Silberman, 2002; Frendo, 2004). In a principle component analysis (PCA), the ancient Levantines clustered predominantly with modern-day Palestinians and Bedouins and marginally overlapped with Arabian Jews, whereas AJs clustered away from Levantine individuals and adjacent to Neolithic Anatolians and Late Neolithic and Bronze Age Europeans.”

      “Overall, the combined results are in a strong agreement with the predictions of the Irano-Turko-Slavic hypothesis (Table 1) and rule out an ancient Levantine origin for AJs, which is predominant among modern-day Levantine populations (e.g., Bedouins and Palestinians). This is not surprising since Jews differed in cultural practices and norms (Sand, 2011) and tended to adopt local customs (Falk, 2006). Very little Palestinian Jewish culture survived outside of Palestine (Sand, 2009). For example, the folklore and folkways of the Jews in northern Europe is distinctly pre-Christian German (Patai, 1983) and Slavic in origin, which disappeared among the latter (Wexler, 1993, 2012).”

      • James Canning
        James Canning on March 20, 2019, 11:42 am

        Great post!

      • Mayhem
        Mayhem on March 22, 2019, 5:39 pm

        @Misterioso, so what do you say about this discovery The Tel Dan Inscription: The First Historical Evidence of King David from the Bible?

      • Mayhem
        Mayhem on March 23, 2019, 7:59 am

        @Misterioso, so the Canaanites were ancestors of today’s Palestinians according to your mythology. Actually ancient DNA reveals fate of the mysterious Canaanites and sorry M, no mention of the Palestinians.
        After “Haber had confirmed who the Canaanites were, he set out to find out what happened to them. He compared their genomes to those of 99 living Lebanese people and hundreds of others in genetic databases. Haber found that the present-day Lebanese population is largely descended from the ancient Canaanites, inheriting more than 90% of their genes from this ancient source. The other 7% may have come from migrants from Central Europe who moved to the Levant around 3000 years ago.”
        Refer
        Ancient DNA reveals fate of the mysterious Canaanites

      • RoHa
        RoHa on March 23, 2019, 10:24 pm

        That story says that the Lebanese are descendants of the Canaanites. It doesn’t say that Pa;estinians aren’t.

        And since the Lebanon and Palestine are neighbouring countries in the Levant, with constant traffic over centuries, with both being part of the same empires for most their history, it seem highly unlikely that there will be a marked genetic difference between Lebanese and Palestinians.

      • oldgeezer
        oldgeezer on March 23, 2019, 11:54 pm

        @Mayhem

        No doubt you will insist that modern day Jews are indigenous to the Middle East generally and Israel specifcally. Yet the facts and science say that the population forcibly expelled by Israel are indigenous and modern day Jews are European and have no more relationship with the Middle East than the Irish do.

        There’s no Jewish claim to any territory. Never was. Just as there is no Islamic or Christian claim to territory.

        The mere concept is a codification of racism. Yes some Muslims claim it. Yes Israelies do too. Doesn’t matter. It’s a racist concept.

        The racist core of zionism is reprehensible. There was a time I’d love to meet a racist like yonah and discuss with him. yonah being a liberal racist. Racists on your level? No, I’m just looking forward to the day that life eliminates you. No threats. I just want natural selection to do it’s job and with your intellect and mindset I’m sure it will be taken care of.

      • zaid
        zaid on March 24, 2019, 12:58 am

        Mayhem

        A very desperate post.

        The study you linked to didnot compare palestinians to the ancient remains but focused on lebanese since the ancient remains were from lebanon (Sidon).

        Samples from palestine matched modern day palestinians more than other levantine population and samples from lebanon matched modern day lebanese more than other levantine population but they were all too close and the difference were small.

        Scientists looked into Haber data and concluded:

        “the Lebanese people have more genetic overlap with the Canaanites from Sidon than do other modern Middle Eastern populations such as Jordanians, Syrians or Palestinians.The difference is small, but it’s possible that the Lebanese population has remained more isolated over time from an influx of African DNA than other Levantine peoples, Lazaridis suggested”

        https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-canaanite-lebanese-genetics-20170727-story.html%3foutputType=amp

      • Nathan
        Nathan on March 26, 2019, 10:56 am

        Misterioso – The late Mr Avnery wasn’t an archeologist or an historian of antiquities. He was a journalist. So, he claimed that there was no King David. You might have to take into account that Mr Avnery might not have been well informed. The “House of David” has been discovered in archeology, and so the debate about his having been a real person is over.
        Are you aware that Mr Avnery was a fighter in 1948? He wrote an excellent account about his adventures. It’s actually quite funny that an anti-Israel person finds Mr Avnery to be a source of inspiration. Generally, an anti-Israel person defines a Jewish immigrant from Germany to be a colonial invader, and a soldier in the fight to found a Jewish state to be a criminal. I’m thrilled to learn that he’s on your list of good guys.
        Gee, I was wondering how you know that Thomas Friedman is not of Hebrew descent. Do you have information about his DNA? I have a feeling that you just might make up things based on your pre-conceived ideology. Suddenly, you know that the Palestinians are the offspring of the Jebusites. So, there was no David, but the Jebusites whom he conquered were real. The Bible is a fairy tale if it’s about Israel, but it’s a wealth of data about the Palestinians. Maybe the Palestinians are really the Girgashites (but not Jebusites) . If so, the whole debate about Israel’s legitimacy would have to be re-examined.

    • genesto
      genesto on March 20, 2019, 12:37 pm

      — not to mention a terrible economist! Just ask Paul Krugman, the Nobel Prize winner in economics, NYT columnist and distinguished professor, who also happens to ‘get it’ on Israel/Palestine. (Still wish I’d heeded his warning of the coming housing bubble collapse many years ago. Might have been able to avoid bankruptcy!).

      It continues to amaze me that this idiot, Friedman – with all of the terrible mistakes he’s made, and continues to make – still has an audience! P.T. Barnum must be laughing in his grave!

  2. Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 19, 2019, 1:11 pm

    Going by his name, it would seem likely that Friedman’s ‘ancestral homeland’ is Germany or somewhere else in Mittel Europa. Certainly not the Middle East. Nor does he look like someone indigeneous to that region, even allowing that not everyone from the Middle East has the same ‘look’.

    I suppose the awkwardness of having obviously European names is what encourages so many to concoct fake ‘Israeli’ names to bolster the illusion of being indigenous to the region, and of there being an “Israeli” culture in the first place.

    And does any serious historian deny that a large proportion of the huge Jewish population in the Roman empire were – and must have been – converts? If not, how do they attempt to explain how a small, non seafaring community produced such a huge number of ‘descendants’ all over the empire?

  3. Stephen Shenfield
    Stephen Shenfield on March 19, 2019, 4:45 pm

    Funny you should mention Julian. I recently read his tract ‘Against the Galileans’. He was a very bright guy for an emperor. He persuasively argues that neither Judaism nor Christianity is a suitable religion for the empire. But it was too late, the rot had gone too far.

  4. Keith
    Keith on March 19, 2019, 5:30 pm

    YOSSI GURVITZ- “Myth isn’t history, and it doesn’t convey any rights.”

    No, but the myth of exile and the psychology of the Diaspora was very important in establishing the ideology which facilitated Jews fulfilling a specialized economic niche in medieval society. Their status as “outsiders” permitted them to perform functions for the local nobility not otherwise possible.

    • WH
      WH on March 20, 2019, 5:09 am

      Perhaps worth mentioning that they were forced into that niche by a ban on agricultural work, leading to their stigmatisation as money-grubbers.

  5. MHughes976
    MHughes976 on March 19, 2019, 5:31 pm

    516 is sometimes given as the date for the foundation of the Second Temple but it was not the date of the issue of any degree by Cyrus, who had died about 530. 516 is deduced from the statement of Ezra 6:15 that the Temple was dedicated in the sixth year of Darius, Cyrus’ second successor, but the array of sources for this event is extremely complicated and difficult to interpret. Herodotus’ visit to the Middle East was in 450 rather than 480 – the events of 480/479 are the subject of his work. His question in Book 7 ‘what nation of Asia did Xerxes not lead against Greece?’ rings rather ironically to us, since it is true that the Jews are not mentioned. He does, as we know, mention the ‘Syrians of Palestine’ fairly often.

    • kylebisme
      kylebisme on March 20, 2019, 4:04 am

      Herodotus is likely referring to Jews as “Syrians of Palestine”, mentioning them along with Phoenicians when describing “the only nations who use circumcision” in The Histories.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976 on March 20, 2019, 9:53 am

        I think that taking Syrians of Palestine as Jews is quite implausible. Both parts of the description seem to fit the people described in the Bible very badly. Circumcision is not regarded as a mark of a specific ethnicity but of being under Egyptian cultural influence, which Herodotus (2:105) thinks has spread as far as the environs of the Black Sea. There is no hint of a distinctive religion or of any importance attached by the ‘Syrian’ people to Jerusalem or Samaria. The only religious building in the region which H mentions is a Temple of Aphrodite at Ashkelon (1:104).

  6. Brewer
    Brewer on March 19, 2019, 5:45 pm

    I am always amazed at how durable these myths are, how the common view is at such variance with that of even the Historical establishment. Here is some commentary well worth filing away:
    ” Although the myth of an exile from the Jewish homeland (Palestine) does exist in popular Israeli culture, it is negligible in serious Jewish historical discussions. Important groups in the Jewish national movement expressed reservations regarding this myth or denied it completely ”
    – Israel Bartal, Avraham Harman Professor of Jewish History, and the former Dean of the Faculty of Humanities at Hebrew University. Since 2006 he is the chair of the Historical Society of Israel.

    “The myth I will examine is that of the exile of the Jews from their land as a result of the destruction of the Second Temple, and I will trace its vicissitudes and history. This myth is very common not only in Israel but also in the West.”
    – Israel Jacob Yuval, Professor of Jewish History at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

    ” The Bible talks about the great and magnificent united monarchy of David and Solomon in the 10th century BCE, which split into two kingdoms, Israel and Judah, because of the demand by Solomon’s son, Rehoboam (Rehavam), for excessive tax payments from the tribes of the northern hills and Galilee, which thereupon angrily seceded from the united monarchy. The result was two centuries of strife, wars and fraternal hatred.

    The Scriptures treat Israel as a secondary kingdom of no importance, a place of incorrigible sinners, whereas Judah is considered the great and just kingdom whose capital is Jerusalem, where King Solomon established a splendid temple during the glorious era of the united monarchy. Finkelstein is dubious about the existence of this great united monarchy.

    “There is no archaeological evidence for it,” he says. “This is something unexampled in history. I don’t think there is any other place in the world where there was a city with such a wretched material infrastructure but which succeeded in creating such a sweeping movement in its favor as Jerusalem, which even in its time of greatness was a joke in comparison to the cities of Assyria, Babylon or Egypt. It was a typical mountain village. There is no magnificent finding, no gates of Nebuchadnezzar, no Assyrian reliefs, no Egyptian temples – nothing. Even the temple couldn’t compete with the temples of Egypt and their splendor.”

    Then why was it written?

    “For reasons of ideology. Because the authors of the Bible, people from Judah at the end of the seventh century BCE, in the period of King Josiah, had a long score to settle with the northern kingdom, with its splendor and richness. They despised the northerners and had not forgotten their dominance in forging the Israelite experience, in the competition for the sites of ritual. Contrary to what is usually thought, the Israelites did not go to pray in Jerusalem. They had a temple in Samaria (today’s Sebastia) and at Beit El (Bethel). In our book we tried to show that as long as Israel was there, Judah was small and frightened, militarily and internationally. Judah and Jerusalem were on the fringes. A small tribe. There was nothing there. A small temple and that’s all.”
    – Israel Finklestein.
    https://www.haaretz.com/1.4777188

  7. JWalters
    JWalters on March 19, 2019, 8:24 pm

    Very appropriate to look at the actual foundation for the Zionist claims. Expanding on the mention of Nehemiah, here are a few other relevant points from that section of the history.

    Nehemiah (along with Ezra) tells about the return to Jerusalem by some of the Judaic elite then in Babylon. They returned with considerable wealth, and under the protection of Babylonian troops, and set up strict rules for the Jews in Judea.

    Nehemiah 13 describes how all foreigners were to be excluded from Israel. This appears to be a reversal of Moses’ earlier teaching to welcome the stranger.

    Nehemiah 5 describes how the people of Judea complained to Nehemiah about their extreme financial oppression by the elite of Judea, and how Nehemiah convinced the rulers to stop their practice of usury against their Jewish brethren.

    Nehemiah 13 describes forbidding commerce on the Sabbath, and forbidding marriage to non-Jews. Jews who were already married to non-Jews were required to give up their spouses and any children from those marriages.

    https://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/nehemiah/
    https://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezra/

  8. Nathan
    Nathan on March 19, 2019, 9:30 pm

    Yossi Gurvitz is very familiar with the Jewish text, so it caught my eye that he brings to the attention of the Mondoweiss reading public only the quote from Jeremiah in which the prophet calls upon the captives taken into exile to “build homes”, etc (to live in the lands of their captivity). It could be that a few of the readers might not have read the Book of Jeremiah, so out of intellectual fairness it would have been nice if Mr Gurvitz had brought to our attention that there are other very famous statements of Jeremiah that promise that the Judeans shall return to their land. Perhaps the most famous Jeremiah quote of all is from chapter 31 (verses 15-16). The captives are are being taken from Jerusalem to Babylonia, and they are passing by the town of Ramah in the land of Benjamin (today this is Ar-Ram in the West Bank). Apparently, Jeremiah has a tradition that Rachel is buried in Ramah, and so he imagines that she is weeping as her descendants are being taken away: “…stop your crying… they shall return from the land of an enemy. There is hope for your future… The children shall yet return to their own territory.” The real view of Jeremiah is that for the time being the captives should make do in the lands of exile, however he prophesizes that in the future they will indeed return. Selective quoting is misleading.

    At the end of the article, there are a few words about Yossi Gurvitz. It doesn’t mention that Mr Gurvitz lives in Israel. It’s important to give a fuller picture to the readers.

    • bcg
      bcg on March 20, 2019, 9:49 am

      @Nathan: I’d like to suggest that the whole issue of who lived where in 500 B.C. is utterly batshit crazy, and there is no justification – legally, morally or in any other sense – for dispossessing people of their land right now.

    • Jackdaw
      Jackdaw on March 20, 2019, 10:27 am

      Yossi lives in Israel, in a Jewish neighborhood, about as far away from Arabs as he can get.

      ‘Do as I say, not as I do’.

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso on March 20, 2019, 10:29 am

      @Nathan

      More mythical blather. I can only conclude that Hasbara Central pays you per word.

      • eljay
        eljay on March 20, 2019, 11:04 am

        || Misterioso: @Nathan
        More mythical blather. I can only conclude that Hasbara Central pays you per word. ||

        The list of approved words must be strict because he has yet to find any with which to reply to Donald’s clear and concise questions:

        Donald  March 13, 2019, 9:48 am

        Nathan, let’s get this out in the open. Do you deny that Israel deliberately expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in a process that included a number of massacres? Do you deny that once expelled the Israelis kept them out by force?

    • Talkback
      Talkback on March 21, 2019, 4:06 am

      Nathan: “The real view of Jeremiah is that for the time being the captives should make do in the lands of exile, however he prophesizes that in the future they will indeed return. Selective quoting is misleading.”

      Gurvitz only claimed that “Most of the Jews decided to cleave to the dictates of the prophet Jeremiah” (and not to his prophecy).
      Selective interpretation is misleading.

  9. Sibiriak
    Sibiriak on March 19, 2019, 10:16 pm

    Yossi Gurvitz: Myth isn’t history, and it doesn’t convey any rights.
    ————————————————————

    Ancient history–no matter how accurate– doesn’t convey any rights either.

    But let’s focus the analysis, discourse and debate on Jewish history and Jewish identity nevertheless.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 20, 2019, 6:09 am

      Have you missed the fundamental Zionist claim that Jews are the ‘original’ inhabitants of the land to which they are ‘returning’ after 2000 years? And that, even if they come from New York or Odessa or Paris – that gives them more right to live there than the non-Jews who can trace their famililes back there for hundreds of years?

      Challenging these myths and shoddy history is very important in any refutation of Zionist claims. Certainly not the only line of discourse we should take, but a vital one nonetheless.

  10. Jackdaw
    Jackdaw on March 20, 2019, 2:23 am

    If you don’t belong here, Yossi, get on a plane and leave.

    You had balls once, find them, and just go.

  11. Jackdaw
    Jackdaw on March 20, 2019, 2:28 am

    So many Jew experts here at Mondoweiss.

    • eljay
      eljay on March 20, 2019, 8:55 am

      || Jackdaw: So many Jew experts here at Mondoweiss. ||

      It doesn’t take a “Jew expert” to know that:
      1. Jewish is a religion-based identity that can only be acquired by…
      – undergoing a religious conversion to Judaism; or
      – being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

      2. Jewish is not an identity acquired by…
      – being born in, living in or being up to n-generations removed from the geographic region comprised by “Judea and Samaria” / “the Land of Israel” / the “Jewish State” / the State of Israel;
      – speaking Hebrew; or
      – partaking of Jewish culture and cuisine.

    • Talkback
      Talkback on March 20, 2019, 9:35 am

      It takes one to know one, right?

    • Misterioso
      Misterioso on March 20, 2019, 10:47 am

      @Jackdaw

      “So many Jew experts here at Mondoweiss.”

      Ah, so you’re feeling the heat. Well it’s gonna’ get much, much hotter. As was always inevitable, Zionism is collapsing. The ugly truth is emerging ever faster and peoples around the world, including enlightened Jews, are increasingly aghast and shocked at its monstrous crimes committed against the essentially defenseless indigenous Arab Christian and Muslim Arabs. BTW, if you intend to remain living in historic Palestine, I again urge you to learn Arabic. Believe me, you’re gonna need it!!

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw on March 20, 2019, 1:24 pm

        @Mister Zero

        You won’t be around to see the Jews hand the keys over to the Arabs.

        What a waste. If you’d have stayed out of the I/P vortex, you might have enjoyed your one shot at life.

        BTW, Israelis are still happier than you could have ever been.
        https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-drops-two-places-to-13th-on-world-happiness-index-u-s-ranks-19th-1.7042942

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 20, 2019, 1:58 pm

        “What a waste. If you’d have stayed out of the I/P vortex”

        Gosh, “Jackdaw”, based on the actual geographic reality, you are a hell of a lot closer to the “I/P vortex” than anybody else.
        What’s your escape plan?

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus on March 20, 2019, 7:56 pm

        Jack*
        “You won’t be around to see the Jews hand the keys over to the Arabs.”
        Of course not. Anyway, it’s not about Jews but their Zionist majority, and those who try to resist the coming war of liberation will pay very dearly. Unless they manage to complete the genocide off the Palestinian owners of the country.
        No way out, [email protected]

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw on March 21, 2019, 2:30 am

        @Mooser

        What’s my escape plan?

        Well. I’ve been here seven years, and I’ll probably stay another ten years, until my kids have completed their army service.

        Then, maybe, I’ll begin work on an escape plan. Of course my kids will make their own plans.

        Mooser. Have you a plan to escape your fantasy world, the world where you are smarter and funnier than everybody?

    • bcg
      bcg on March 20, 2019, 9:49 pm

      @Jackdaw: This is a website devoted to discussion of Israel, Judaism and current political events in the middle east. Should we be discussing organic chemistry instead?

  12. klm90046
    klm90046 on March 20, 2019, 2:42 am

    “…the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land [of Canaan] in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the twelve tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united kingdom of David and Solomon, described in the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom.

    “The new theories envision this modest chiefdom as based in a Jerusalem that was essentially a cow town, not the glorious capital of an empire.”

    The Bible Unearthed: Archeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of its Sacred Texts by Israel Finkelstein, Chairman, Department of Archeology, Tel Aviv University, Palestine; and Neil Asher Silberman, archeology historian and journalist. Reported in Haaretz by Ze’ev Herzog, 1999. Quoted in The Black Holocaust And Other Tragedies, 2006

    • Jackdaw
      Jackdaw on March 21, 2019, 8:11 am

      If the Israelites did not conquer Canaan, than the ‘Israelites’ must have been a Canaanite minority that revolted or withdrew from the majority, which, only bolsters the Jewish claim to being the indigenous people of the region.

      Thanks guys!

      • eljay
        eljay on March 21, 2019, 8:49 am

        || Jackdaw: If the Israelites did not conquer Canaan, than the ‘Israelites’ must have been a Canaanite minority that revolted or withdrew from the majority, which, only bolsters the Jewish claim to being the indigenous people of the region. … ||

        If ancient Israelites were a subset of ancient Canaanites, it bolsters the claim that ancient Canaanites and ancient Israelites – neither of which has existed for centuries – were indigenous to the region.

        It doesn’t bolster the Zionist claim that people all over the world – citizens of homelands all over the world – who have chosen to embrace the religion-based identity of Jewish are entitled:
        – to colonize a geographic Palestine full of modern-day, indigenous Palestinians;
        – to establish in as much as possible of that territory a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”; and
        – to do unto others (especially those modern-day, indigenous Palestinians) acts of injustice and immorality they would not have others do unto them.

        || … Thanks guys! ||

        You’re welcome.  :-)

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 21, 2019, 1:11 pm

        Jackdaw: “… which, only bolsters the Jewish claim to being the indigenous people of the region.”

        The indigenous people of Palestine were Turkish subjects who were habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August 1924 and became Palestine citizens. And their descendants.

        Ther rest are foreigners who either immigrated with the consent of the indigenous people or colonial settlers who infiltrated Palestine under British gun.

        Everything else is just a racist judeo-fixated Zionist delusion.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 21, 2019, 5:21 pm

        “Thanks guys!”

        And a big “thank you” to the Canaanites for the many concepts incorporated into the Israelite religion, too.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on March 21, 2019, 7:51 pm

        The ancient Israelites were probably an indigenous people of the region (though their tales have them originating in Iraq) but not the indigenous people of the region.

        Modern Jews are, of course, not ancient Israelites, and are indigenous to Golders Green.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 22, 2019, 11:50 am

        “Modern Jews …are indigenous to Golders Green.”

        Oh, that whole Piltstein Man thing is sketchy. Never been proven. I thought we were indigenous to certain swampy coastal areas of Longuyland (an island off what is now New York), where I grew up.

  13. orkassem
    orkassem on March 20, 2019, 9:12 am

    I found this article very interesting. I wish I had a reliable source to learn more about the ancient world that is not history tainted with saying whatever promotes a current political or social objective. Can you give me some accurate books, Web links, etc. for that? I see two references in the comment above mine.

    • jackal
      jackal on March 24, 2019, 10:30 pm

      I have two books, among multi-dozens, in my personal library on Israel/Palestine that you might find interesting, both by the same author, Shomo Sand:
      The Invention of the Land of Israel
      The Invention of the Jewish People

      Both are well-researched by a Jewish historian teaching in Israel, who signalled his break-away from Judiasm with this book:
      How I Stopped being a Jew
      :))

  14. Kay24
    Kay24 on March 20, 2019, 10:12 am

    It’s all because of those birthright trips, and the false claims of birth right, and ancestral lands, that is fed into those naive kids, that result in a foolish adult zionist American. It is strange that the zionists can sometime even quote from the Bible, a book they do not believe in, to claim those stolen lands. It seems the zionist plan has worked, where American Jews are concerned.

  15. jon s
    jon s on March 20, 2019, 12:31 pm

    I haven’t been around here in a while, but I peeked, and found Mr. Gurvitz’ essay, which includes some inaccuracies :

    King Cyrus issued his edict in 538 BCE and died in 530 BCE. The 2nd Temple was dedicated in 515 BCE.

    “Jerusalem had always been a hellhole” -in that case it’s pretty impressive that the exiles yearned to return.

    Ezra was not the leader of the returning exiles .The leaders of the returning exiles were Sheshbazzar and Zerubbabel (who may have been the same person) . Ezra arrived later, in 458 BCE, Nehemiah in 445 BCE.

    Mr . Gurvitz has the jumbled the timeline here, too:

    Pompey died in 48 BCE, so he could not have “anointed” Herod, who became King in 37 BCE.

    As to the main issue, it’s absurd to claim that Israel is NOT the Jewish historic homeland.

    Israel is the Jewish ancestral homeland , as proven by the historical and archaeological record, and by a people’s memory.
    Whether or not present-day Jews are biological descendants of the ancient Jews is a fascinating topic… especially if you’re a racist, concerned with “bloodlines” and notions of “racial purity”.
    Seriously, who cares? Are today’s Greeks descended from the ancient Greeks? Are the French descended from the Gauls? Are the British pure-bred Angles and Saxons? Of course not. Throughout history people (including the Jews) have migrated, inter-married, converted…but that doesn’t mean that they don’t take pride in what they consider to be their national history and heritage. What counts is a people’s consciousness , their historical memory. Very little to do with genetics.

    A very Happy Purim to all celebrating!

    • Mooser
      Mooser on March 20, 2019, 1:55 pm

      “What counts is a people’s consciousness , their historical memory.”

      Yeah, there’s no particular reason why it has to actually, you know comport with reality. The power of the Jewish imagination is the strongest force in the world.

      • johneill
        johneill on March 21, 2019, 11:59 am

        it was willed from a dream to a reality.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 21, 2019, 5:22 pm

        “it was willed from a dream to a reality.”

        Yes, there’s no denying there is a reality in Israel.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 20, 2019, 2:04 pm

      ““Jerusalem had always been a hellhole” -in that case it’s pretty impressive that the exiles yearned to return.”

      Did they do?

      “Yearn to return” in the literal sense of the word? Or in the metaphorical sense?

      If the former, you’d wonder why so few bothered, especially as there were large Jewish communities in the region who could have ‘returned’ quite easily had they so desired. Even now, most Jews prefer life amongst us innately anti semitic Gentiles rather than ‘returning’ to a provincial Middle Eastern backwater.

      “Seriously, who cares?”

      Zionists care. Very, very much.

      “Throughout history people (including the Jews) have migrated, inter-married, converted…but that doesn’t mean that they don’t take pride in what they consider to be their national history and heritage. What counts is a people’s consciousness , their historical memory. Very little to do with genetics.”

      You’re contradicting yourself here.

      If, as you correctly say, Jews are a mixture of many different peoples who have converted and inter-married over the centuries, then they are not a ‘national’ group. They’re just another boring old religious group, like Catholics or Buddhists. They don’t deserve any special rights or privileges, and they certainly don’t have the right to take over another people’s land.

      Jews are not special.

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew on March 20, 2019, 2:59 pm

      Happy Purim to you!

    • eljay
      eljay on March 20, 2019, 3:18 pm

      || jon s: … Israel is the Jewish ancestral homeland … ||

      Israel is not the “ancestral homeland” of people all over the world – citizens of homelands all over the world – who have chosen to embrace the religion-based identity of Jewish.

      || … Whether or not present-day Jews are biological descendants of the ancient Jews is a fascinating topic… especially if you’re a racist, concerned with “bloodlines” and notions of “racial purity”. … ||

      Yeah, Zionists do have this weird obsession with who is and is not Jewish.

      || … that doesn’t mean that they don’t take pride in what they consider to be their national history and heritage. What counts is a people’s consciousness , their historical memory. … ||

      You and all others who have chosen to be Jewish can take all the pride you want in your religion-based identity but neither the identity nor your decision to embrace it gives you the right:
      – to be supremacists;
      – to have a supremacist state; or
      – to do unto others acts of injustice and immorality you would not have others do unto you.

      • eljay
        eljay on March 20, 2019, 3:36 pm

        || eljay: … Zionists do have this weird obsession with who is and is not Jewish. … ||

        More correctly: … Zionists do have this weird obsession with who is and is not a “real” Jew. …

    • Keith
      Keith on March 20, 2019, 9:40 pm

      JON S- “Jerusalem had always been a hellhole” -in that case it’s pretty impressive that the exiles yearned to return.”

      The Jerusalem of Judaic prayers was a metaphysical construct, the “return” was following the return of the Messiah. Actual real world Jerusalem was an unappealing and unpopular backwater. Prior to the Holocaust, few Jews were interested in “returning” to their mythical “homeland.” The early Zionists had difficulty recruiting Jews to immigrate to Palestine, the Western democracies the preferred destination for refugees. Even after World War II, the Zionist had to work the DP camps to coerce Jews to come to the “sacred soil.” One can only guess as to how sacred it was to the original founders who were mostly atheists and preferred to settle on the coast in Tel Aviv rather than inland in Jerusalem. Even Maimonides in his final days chose Egypt over Jerusalem. Since we have covered this before, I assume you are engaging in your typical attempt at historical misrepresentation.

      As for your non-existent Jewish historical memory and ancestral homeland, this is yet another of your misrepresentations. The closed society of Classical (medieval) Judaism was not interested in any historical insights. “Classical Judaism had little interest in describing or explaining itself to the members of its own community, whether educated (in talmudic studies) or not…. The first book on Jewish history proper (dealing with ancient times) was promptly banned and suppressed by the highest rabbinical authorities, and did not reappear before the 19th century.” (p19, 20, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years.” Israel Shahak)

      It is difficult to tell how much you actually believe your own BS. Is it possible that you are so conditioned by Zionist mythology that empirical reality is inconceivable to you? Some strange foreign land?

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr on March 21, 2019, 2:37 am

        @k

        your skipping the part where judaism went from temple oriented and jerusalem based (and where jesus was unhappy with the bureaucracy) and after the roman expulsion and the creation of ‘the diaspora’. true, many later jewish scholars believed the diaspora spread judaism further without the need to be physically in jerusalem and hence, the interpretation by some that jerusalem would become “metaphysical” rather then physical. I believe PW would favour this. but that doesn’t make it a confirmed belief. there was always a large component of yearning to physically return to jerusalem . and your idea about ‘when the messiah returns’ is akin to saying, “it will take a miracle to get back..” so there is no consensus on this interpretation. and usually its these tiny , usually ignorant, sub-sects like the cultish neturei karta that embrace the most radical combative interpretation.(some lubovitchers are funny in that that feel very sorry for these guys but look at it like they just got hung up on one complex sentence and their brains died.)

      • Keith
        Keith on March 21, 2019, 4:26 pm

        DABAKR- “your skipping the part where judaism went from temple oriented and jerusalem based….”

        Totally irrelevant and little more than your attempt to muddy the waters. There was no Roman exile of the Jewish population. The Palestinian Jews mostly converted to Christianity, then Islam. Most of the world’s Jews were already located outside of Palestine. The Askenazi Jews who formed the initial backbone of Zionist efforts and ideology were European converts to Judaism. The “return to Jerusalem” was a metaphysical hope for the coming of the Messiah. The vast majority of the world’s Jews avoided Jerusalem until recently when Israel became a powerful state and built luxury condos, etc. Yossi Gurvitz history seems quite accurate, Jon S quibbles notwithstanding. You might also review posts by Yoni Falic who seems very knowlegable. I am not going to bother recommending books which I know you won’t read. And next time please try to relate to my comment rather than trying to distract with smoke and mirrors.

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw on March 22, 2019, 7:02 am

        @Keith

        “Prior to the Holocaust, few Jews were interested in “returning” to their mythical “homeland.”

        For someone as obsessed with Jews as you, you need to get your facts straight.

        Six hundred plus years of messianic returns to Zion. 1240-1840 AD.
        http://azure.org.il/include/print.php?id=264

        Read it and weep( if you have any heart).
        *not*

      • Keith
        Keith on March 22, 2019, 3:21 pm

        JACKDAW- “Six hundred plus years of messianic returns to Zion. 1240-1840 AD.”

        Jeez, how can I resist the power of Zionist mythology? But I am a numbers guy, so show me the relevant numbers! (see below)

        “According to Ottoman statistics studied by Justin McCarthy,[33] the population of Palestine in the early 19th century was 350,000, in 1860 it was 411,000 and in 1900 about 600,000 of which 94% were Arabs.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)

        The Jewish virtual library estimates the total Jewish population in 1900 at 10.6 million. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-population-of-the-world

        What this shows, Jack, is that after 600 years of return to Zion, Jews (including Mizrahi who likely never left) numbered a paltry 36,000 in 1900. This is 6% of the Palestinian population and a negligible one-third of 1% of the total Jewish population circa 1900. This is evidence for a longing for the sacred soil? Get real. This strongly supports that Ashkenazi Jews were European converts who adopted a Diaspora ideology and lifestyle in preference to being peasants. Zionism didn’t get any traction until after the Holocaust. The six-million Jews, I might add, were overwhelmingly anti-Zionists or non-Zionists. Even then, it wasn’t until the six-day war before Zionism became very popular among American Jews.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 22, 2019, 4:04 pm

        @Jackdaw

        I’ve not read that long and tedious piece.

        However, I will ask you this: If, as the piece claims, there was ‘mass’ Jewish immigration to Palestine on several occasions before the rise of Zionism in the 19th century, why is it then that at around the start of the last century, only about 7% of the population of Palestine was Jewish?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 23, 2019, 12:03 pm

        “It is difficult to tell how much you actually believe your own BS.”

        “Keith”, you don’t want to worry too much about that. I was raised with it, and I can’t tell either.

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw on March 23, 2019, 12:33 pm

        @minimalist

        I will address your question after you’ve read the long and tedious piece.
        Not until than.

      • Jackdaw
        Jackdaw on March 23, 2019, 12:56 pm

        @Keith

        I made you eat crow, or should I say jackdaw, so you divert.
        Fine.

        The reason that the Jewish population in Eretz Yisroel remained low, is because the local Arabs, and their Ottoman overlords, made Jewish life there, untenable.

        At best, the Jew was treated as second class citizen, a ‘dhimmi’.
        At worst, Jewish migrants were persecuted and vilified.

        A jewish community in Eretz Yisroel was never given a chance to take root and prosper during the six hundred years of messianic aliyot.

        In the 1600’s, hundreds of thousands of diaspora Jews were preparing to migrate to Eretz Yisroel as followers of Shabai Tzvi, the ‘false messiah’, but fate interceded and Shabtai Tzvi capitulated to the Ottomans and the mass migration never occurred.

        Yes, there were a few decades here and there, when Jews were accepted in the region, but eventually anti-Semitic persecution would reappear.

        Long story short, if the local Arabs and Ottomans had let the Jews migrate and thrive, their numbers would have increased, and, by the 18th century, the Jewish population would have been much higher.

        Consider the example of Rabbi Judah he-Hasid and his followers.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judah_HeHasid_(Jerusalem)

        I hope you are now better informed about those Jews.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 23, 2019, 2:53 pm

        Jackdaw: “At best, the Jew was treated as second class citizen, a ‘dhimmi’.”

        How many times are you going to repeat this lie after you were told that the Ottoman Empire abandoned the dhimmi status? Can Israel’s Arabs buy land as Ottoman Jews could? Can they settle de facto everywhere they want? At best they are treated as fourth class citizens.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 23, 2019, 3:51 pm

        Jackdaw: “The reason that the Jewish population in Eretz Yisroel remained low, is because the local Arabs, and their Ottoman overlords, made Jewish life there, untenable.”

        ROFL. Sure. Explain this:

        Demographic history of Palestine. Number in thousands:
        1800 Jews: 7 , Christians 22, Mulim 246
        1890 Jews: 43, Christians 57, Muslim 432
        1914 Jews: 94, Christians 70, Muslim 525

        Population increase factor from 1800 to 1914:
        Jews 13.5, Christians 3.2, Muslim 2.1

        According to the numbers it would be more plausible to claim that the Christian and Muslim population in the Ottoman Empire remained low, because the local Jewish overlords made their life untenable.

        Isn’t it more plausible that only a few grassroot movements supported “storming the walls” while the rest followed the Haskalah movement?

        I’m not going to waste my time with waiting for an honest and rational response, again. It’s a permanent disappointment.

      • Keith
        Keith on March 23, 2019, 4:48 pm

        JACKDAW- “… so you divert.”

        Demonstrating that your Zionist BS is refuted by empirical data is to bring reality to the discussion. Faced with this obvious refutation, you double down with more Zionist BS. The mythological exile now becomes an ongoing series of exiles. What crap. You are incredibly dishonest even for a Zionist. The numbers speak for themselves.

        JACKDAW- “The reason that the Jewish population in Eretz Yisroel remained low, is because the local Arabs, and their Ottoman overlords, made Jewish life there, untenable.”

        The reason the Jewish population in Palestine remained low is because so few Jews wanted to move there, your handful of Rabbi Judah he-Hasid cult followers notwithstanding. Jeez, even after the Holocaust and all of that Rothschild money, Jews in the DP camps wanted to go to the Western Democracies, not Israel, and had to be coerced.

        “One consideration was the manpower for the nascent Israel Defense Force. There was great anxiety lest the Yishuv be unable to summon up enough troops for the challenges ahead. Thoughts turned immediately toward the refugee camps in the American Zone, swollen with suffering Jewish bodies brought over from the East. A strenuous effort was made to recruit volunteers for the cause. And when this failed, for easily understandable reasons – for how many Jews, newly rescued from the horrors of the Holocaust, would be enthusiastic for military duty in a strange land? – the Zionist apparatus moved rapidly into a higher gear, and proceeded to forcibly recruit some ten thousand soldiers and ship them to fight for a country that none of them knew or belonged to. The force was chiefly exerted through the administrative control Zionists had gained over the camps, each of them a more or less total institutution. Summary loss of employment for recalcitrants, followed by summary denial of food rations, usually did the trick, though quite often beatings and other forms of violence had to be used.” (p81,82, “Overcoming Zionism,” Joel Kovel)

        JACKDAW- “I hope you are now better informed about those Jews.”

        You are obviously (willfully?) misinformed about real Jewish history, empirical reality a strange and alien thing. To help you get to know some real Jewish history, I provide a link to Yoni Falic’s commenter profile. Enjoy! https://mondoweiss.net/user/yonifalic/

    • MHughes976
      MHughes976 on March 21, 2019, 2:13 pm

      Nice to have you back, Jon. I do agree that if you set out with some fanfare to correct others you shouldn’t be careless about things you can easily check. I’m not as confident as you about specific dates, but still. I too made an error, or at least misleading use of words, in referring to the foundation rather than the completion of the Temple in the reign of Darius. Mind you, if that means Darius II, we’re talking about 418 approx..

      • jon s
        jon s on March 22, 2019, 2:19 pm

        Mhughes, thank you. I really think that these days , when it’s easy to verify dates with a few mouse-clicks, there’s no excuse for Mr. Gurvitz’ sloppy chronology.

  16. Ossinev
    Ossinev on March 20, 2019, 2:44 pm

    @jon s
    “What counts is a people’s consciousness , their historical memory”

    Ah so the Palestinians who as a people (not a religious cult) have lived in Palestine for hundreds upon hundreds of years have no “people`s consciousness or historical memory” and deserve to be ethnically cleansed brutalised controlled oppressed by foreign adherents of a religious cult.

    Typical Ziotosh or Zioblollocks to use Jackdaw`s preferred terminology.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on March 20, 2019, 6:23 pm

      “What counts is a people’s consciousness , their historical memory”

      Translated from the Israeli: ‘I happily lie to Jewish children to make of them what we need for Zionism’.

  17. Ossinev
    Ossinev on March 20, 2019, 2:50 pm

    On topic meanwhile the Times they are definitely a Changing

    Even the NYT is increasingly shining an embarassing light onto the Darkest of Nations:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/opinion/israel-settlements.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    Fascinating to hear one of the decidedly non – Middle Eastern settlers in the video blithely accepting that she is a “Fascist”

    Tick tick

  18. Donald
    Donald on March 20, 2019, 2:55 pm

    “Seriously, who cares? Are today’s Greeks descended from the ancient Greeks? Are the French descended from the Gauls? Are the British pure-bred Angles and Saxons? Of course not. Throughout history people (including the Jews) have migrated, inter-married, converted…but that doesn’t mean that they don’t take pride in what they consider to be their national history and heritage. What counts is a people’s consciousness , their historical memory. Very little to do with genetics.”

    I agree with this. But there are people who care–just yesterday in one of the NYT comment sections I saw someone claiming that Jews are the real owners of the land because their ancestors were there 2000 years ago. That sort of thinking is perverse. Nobody should have any quarrel with people who love Judaism and identify with its history. The danger comes in when people use their religious or ethnic heritage as a justification for committing human rights violations.

  19. wondering jew
    wondering jew on March 20, 2019, 3:35 pm

    I believe that the first few generations of Zionists (in contradistinction to today’s American Jews) were formed by these factors: 1. their closeness to Jewish tradition. Though they were rebelling against the traditions of their parents, they were well aware of the traditions of their parents. 2. the hostility of their nonJewish neighbors. If one compares American Jews today to the first generation of Zionists, one would have to say that whereas in America the predominant Jewish experience with our nonJewish neighbors varies from extremely positive to mildly negative with a few instances of extreme negativity, the experience in Eastern Europe was from mildly negative to extremely negative with a few instances of mild positivity. This is a big difference.

    Another difference: the history that has elapsed since. Certainly antizionists will point to the harm done to the Palestinians (and to American foreign policy), Zionists will point to the cataclysm in Europe from ’39 to ’45. Whereas the early Zionists were dealing with a specific extreme rule under the czar and the regime that was about to fall, today’s American Jews who take Jewish history seriously have to “explain” or interpret the events of ’39 to ’45. Of course a few are idealists and emphasize the universal lessons of those events, but on the other hand, (aside from those who feel that forgetting the past is the best choice, of those who choose memory) most are normal and take those events personally as if someone was trying to kill us and decided that on some level our behavior vis a vis unilateral disarmament was problematic.

    The location of the place where the Jews wished to make their stand (as in: here is our destination. here is where we will make our stand) is really no surprise, given the desire to say, “this far and no further. here is our destination.” and that place was in the general neighborhood of Jerusalem. Based on the prayers and the lore.

    Certainly to the people living in Palestine in 1897 this Jewish decision was unfortunate and they will point out the irrationality of those Jews’ choosing that place for their stand. But the essence is that they will point out anything that would theoretically relieve them of the damage that’s been done to them by that decision. Balfour was bad news to them and Herzl and his gathering of Jews in 1897 was bad news and of course they will tell you why it not only is bad news to them, but some type of myth. but the myth element to the decision is only relevant if you wish to undo it. in 1897 the Jews who felt a need to change the trajectory of their history were trying to build something and regarding the myth aspect they had a saying: “If you will it, it is no myth”. So myth or legend or whatever is hardly important. this idea could move tens of thousands of people and so they used that which they had: myths and prayers and built a movement to declare an end to their situation. an intolerable situation which begged for a solution.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on March 20, 2019, 6:22 pm

      “an intolerable situation which begged for a solution”

      And boy-oh-boy did Zionism provide a “solution”. ‘Court Jews’ to the US Empire. What a solution.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr on March 21, 2019, 2:49 am

        @mssr

        hey. bibi is much more of a “court jew” to putin then to the US, at least as your stereotype goes.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus on March 21, 2019, 7:59 am

        ” ‘Court Jews’ to the US Empire. What a solution”

        Well, it’s a beautiful solution. Especially if your footmen being court Jews masks the fact that your owners own the Empire.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 21, 2019, 5:17 pm

        .” bibi is much more of a “court jew” to putin then to the US”

        Okay, Court Jew to the Russian Empire. There’s progress.

    • eljay
      eljay on March 20, 2019, 6:48 pm

      || wondering jew @ March 20, 2019, 3:35 pm ||

      So many words just to assert that the religion-based identity of Jewish granted / still grants to those who chose / choose to embrace it the “right”:
      – to Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of geographic Palestine; and
      – to do unto others acts of injustice and immorality they would not have others do unto them.

      • DaBakr
        DaBakr on March 21, 2019, 2:42 am

        @ej

        you remind me of my border collie. he just keeps insisting on the same thing, consistently and unwavering and without any concept that anybody would disagree with him. and then he usually gets what he wants. (please understand, this is not meant as any kind of insult. just saying…)*

        *and no, this is not some kind of psy-op hasbara ‘ploy’ to say something not combative to trick commenters into being caught off guard. i truly don’t agree with you but I’m much closer to my death then my birth so I’ll die before you surely.

      • eljay
        eljay on March 21, 2019, 8:35 am

        || @Daa: @ej
        you remind me of my border collie. he just keeps insisting on the same thing, consistently and unwavering … ||

        In this respect your border collie and I are just like you and every other Zionist out there.

        || … and without any concept that anybody would disagree with him. … ||

        In this respect, your border collie has nothing in common with me or with you Zionists.

        || … and then he usually gets what he wants. … ||

        Lucky him! I don’t always get what I want, but if I try sometime I find I get what I need.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 21, 2019, 5:24 pm

        “you remind me of my border collie.”

        Ever race your border collie against your Laverda?

    • wondering jew
      wondering jew on March 20, 2019, 10:47 pm

      On another topic: This short film is worth viewing. If the future is one state, then these are the people who will have to be involved. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/opinion/israel-settlements.html

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 22, 2019, 11:59 am

        ” then these are the people who will have to be involved.”

        Very impressive. The scene when the settler brandished his assault weapon and said,
        “Well, now we fight. You like us better now?” really says it all.

  20. CHUCKMAN
    CHUCKMAN on March 21, 2019, 6:00 pm

    Yes, and there’s a whole lot more that could be said.

    The Ashkenazi who make up most of Israel’s population and that of the early Zionist writers are simply a Germanic people, a European people, not a Middle Eastern people.

    Good God, what’s Middle Eastern about Deli food? It’s Germanic and Eastern European. And what’s Middle eastern about the attire of ultra-Orthodox Jews? It’s from rural 18th or 19th century Eastern Europe.

    Their native language is Yiddish, a derivative of German. Hebrew is adopted and related to religious study just as many Muslims study Arabic to be able to read the Koran in the original.

    There may well be bits of the Hebrew people’s DNA in many, after Jews have always been a relatively small population, and the need for mates undoubtedly induced travel in the past, but they are not Hebrews.

    The historic period that saw Jews become somewhat evangelistic – perhaps envying the immense success of Christians who also started as a small Jewish sect – saw colonies founded in a number of places, as in Africa and the Caucasus. Later, there was undoubtedly movement and travel among these diverse places, again the search for mates in a small population playing a role.

    The Ashkenazi share only the religion, although even that is vastly changed from 2000 years ago. Almost entirely different.

    The Palestinians are almost certainly the nearest that we have to the genuine descendants of the Hebrews. And what a bitter irony that is. Of course, two thousand years of history and conquests have changed their nature and religion.

    The Romans never removed the populations from their conquests, and those great record-keepers left no record of doing such to the Hebrews. The entire wandering Jew story is just that, a story, another way to bind a separate modern people to the ancients whose religion they practice.

    In any event, nothing could be more absurd and be more of an invitation to trouble than basing modern boundaries on ancient texts. If the Greeks did that, they would have part of Turkey, where ancient Troy was 3000 years ago.

    As for Friedman’s absurdities over the years, readers might enjoy:

    https://chuckmanwords.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/the-dumbest-story-ever-written/

    https://chuckmanwords.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/thomas-friedmans-life-as-a-pet-hamster/

    https://chuckmanwords.wordpress.com/2009/05/26/thomas-friedman-spokesman-for-enlightenment/

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 22, 2019, 6:22 am

      Agree with most of your post, except for the part where you say the Jews are a Germanic people. That is highly unlikely. The Jews came to the Germanic speaking world fairly recently, well after the era of mass conversion. It’s true that Yiddish is a Germanic language but again, it’s a fairly recent adoption.

      It’s much more likely that the European Jews are a mixture of different groups, including Slavic, Turkic and Levantine.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 25, 2019, 11:53 am

        “It’s much more likely that the European Jews are a mixture of different groups, including Slavic, Turkic and Levantine.”

        Not, I hasten to add, that there’s anything wrong with that.

  21. Boris
    Boris on March 21, 2019, 6:10 pm

    Gurvitz’ basic argument is that Jews during Roman times were religious converts who had originated and lived outside of Eretz Israel. He presents without any reference a claim that 10% of population of Rome was Jewish. He then repeats it twice – I guess to drive his point. Well, this kind of explain why Julius Cesar was smart – must had been Jewish!

    But that’s not my point.

    I had posted here many times – and Mu-Mu can confirm – I was born in Ukraine and was officially identified as a Jew because all my ancestors were Jews. 23andme had found that a) I am a Jew b) my DNA is similar to DNA of people from the Middle East.

    So, if my ancestors were local people who just converted to Judaism, as Gurvitz claims, how did I and people like me get the Middle Eastern genes?

    • RoHa
      RoHa on March 21, 2019, 7:26 pm

      A passing Lebanese sailor, perhaps?

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 22, 2019, 6:18 am

        A turkish sailor who entered a russian harbor and had some fun?

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 25, 2019, 6:58 am

        “BETWEEN. Capisce?”

        I don’t, Boris, to be perfectly honest.

        You are surmising that your precious haplogroup originated in what is now – more or less – Turkey. The hittites are the ancestors of the modern Turks – yes I know some of them like to think their ancestors came riding out of the Central Asian steppes on horseback, but that’s about as likely as the idea that Jews in Ukraine and Iran all originated in Palestine.

        So how does the evidence of 23andme bolster your claim to have roots in ancient Palestine?

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 25, 2019, 4:22 pm

        MDM: “So how does the evidence of 23andme bolster your claim to have roots in ancient Palestine?”

        He’s black and beautiful as Solomon! LOL.

        Either that or half Anatolian, half Roman. Maybe a drunken Roman soldier took advantage of …

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 22, 2019, 6:12 am

      DNA tests are known to be a pile of bunkum. No serious geneticist speaks about ‘Jewish’ genes or ‘Middle Eastern’ genes. They speak in terms of haplogroups or other genetic markers, some of which are more common in certain geographic areas, but can be found elsewhere too.

      And what do you mean by ‘Middle Eastern’ genes anyway? The Middle East is a pretty big, and pretty undefined, place. Turkey is often regarded as ‘Middle East’ so perhaps you have Turkic, ie Khazar ‘genes’? Who knows? Using a cod genetics test from one person means nada.

      • Boris
        Boris on March 22, 2019, 2:08 pm

        Since 23andme had identified me as ethnically European Jew, it proves that this group has genes similar to mine. So, it is not just a “genetic test from one person”.

        My maternal haplogroup is K1A9 – one of the most common among European Jews. It is from a woman who lived in Mediterranean Europe.

        My paternal haplogroup is J-M172 – Western Asia and Mediterranean coast.

        Both are far from area where Khazars used to live.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 22, 2019, 2:30 pm

        “My maternal haplogroup is K1A9 – one of the most common among European Jews. It is from a woman who lived in Mediterranean Europe.”

        Right. But the Med is a huge place with many millions of people living there, the vast majority of whom are now Jewish.

        Also I looked up good old wiki:

        “Approximately 32% of people with Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry are in haplogroup K. This high percentage points to a genetic bottleneck occurring some 100 generations ago.[7] Ashkenazi mtDNA K clusters into three subclades seldom found in non-Jews: K1a1b1a, K1a9, and K2a2a. Thus it is possible to detect three individual female ancestors, who were thought to be from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool, whose descendants lived in Europe.[10] Recent studies suggest these clades originate from Western Europe.[11]”

        So I’m not sure your ‘genetic tests’ are proving what you so clearly desperately want them to prove.

        “My paternal haplogroup is J-M172 – Western Asia and Mediterranean coast. Both are far from area where Khazars used to live.”

        I was curious so I looked up that group too. Easily the majority are form the Ingush, a group from the Caucasus. So actually quite near the Khazar heartland. Several Turkic and central Asian groups also have it in much higher proportions than Jews.

        Now, I’m not saying you have Khazar or other Central Asian descent. I haven’t got a clue. And since these ‘tests’ tell you so little, you don’t really either. Bu if you think they offer proof that you are somehow descended directly from ancient Palestinians, there ain’t much to go on.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 22, 2019, 3:27 pm

        Boris: “… Mediterranean Europe … Western Asia and Mediterranean coast …”

        Boris, seriously.

        How can anyone claim that genes which are common amongst todays Jews are identical to genes of ancient Hebrews who lived in the ‘holy land’? Does anyone actually posess DNA of ancient Hebrews? How was it acquired? And how can anyone be certain that it is actually DNA of these ancient Hebrews after so many different people with different genes have moved through these area in multiple millenias?

        I won’t doubt that you are a descendant of Jews. Maybe your family has even be Jewish for thousands of years. But how do you think are you going to be able to prove that you are not the descendants of mediterranean Europeans and Western Asians who converted to Judaism a long time ago?

        This whole genetic analysis thing is just a hugh scam without 100% certified ancient Hebrew DNA which is just impossible to acquire. Does that make sense?

        Enjoy being Jewish if you do, but stop justifying crimes against Nonjews, because you believe that your DNA sanctions you to commit them. That’s just racist and nazi-like.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 22, 2019, 3:53 pm

        “DNA tests are known to be a pile of bunkum.”

        That may be, but let’s not disparage “carrier testing”, which can be crucial.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on March 23, 2019, 5:02 am

        “My maternal haplogroup is K1A9 – one of the most common among European Jews. It is from a woman who lived in Mediterranean Europe.”

        I thought Jewishness was matrilineal. If European Jews are descended from some Italian woman, then are they really Jews?

        Should Israel be moved to their ancestral homeland in Tuscany?

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 23, 2019, 10:58 am

        @roha

        “Should Israel be moved to their ancestral homeland in Tuscany?”

        Have you seen the price of property in Tuscany?

        And I’m not sure that the likes of Silvio Berlusconi or Tony Blair – for all their ‘love’ of Israel – would be too happy about giving up their holiday homes to the ancestral Jewish land.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 23, 2019, 11:03 am

        “But how do you think are you going to be able to prove that you are not the descendants of mediterranean Europeans and Western Asians who converted to Judaism a long time ago?”

        Even if he is the descendant of ‘Hebrews’ then his ancestors still must have converted to Judaism at some point. There is literally no way to become Jewish other than converting to the faith, or being descended from someone who converted to the faith.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 23, 2019, 12:07 pm

        Gee, I’m not sure that bragging about how unique your genes are is really a good idea for a small people endorsing endogamy.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 23, 2019, 12:21 pm

        “There is literally no way to become Jewish other than converting to the faith, or being descended from someone who converted to the faith.”

        That’s the hard way. Most people just do it by social osmosis.

      • Boris
        Boris on March 23, 2019, 1:25 pm

        @Maximus Decimus Meridius

        From Wikipedia:

        “… It is thought that J-M172 may have originated between the Caucasus Mountains, Mesopotamia and the Levant. …

        … Haplogroup J-M172 is found mainly in the Fertile Crescent, the Caucasus (Nasidze 2003), Anatolia, Italy, the Mediterranean littoral, and the Iranian plateau(Semino 2004).

        The highest reported frequency of J-M172 ever was 87.4%, among Ingush in Malgobek.

        Obviously, Ingushetia is the northern most point of the area. You focusing on this betrays your bias.

        Who knows, maybe a lonely horny Jew (can’t be a sailor, no sea coast) wandered into this area at some point…

        Any way, Ukraine is not on the list. Khazar region was not that close – it is over the mountains.

        Again, the genes support the known history – how Jews had originated in the Middle East and how they had ended up in Europe. Just eat it!

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 23, 2019, 2:23 pm

        “Obviously, Ingushetia is the northern most point of the area. You focusing on this betrays your bias.”

        What are you going on about? The same Wiki article you cite says that the peoples with the highest % of your precious haplogroup are Caucasian peoples. Quite a distance from Palestine, last I checked.

        “… Haplogroup J-M172 is found mainly in the Fertile Crescent, the Caucasus (Nasidze 2003), Anatolia, Italy, the Mediterranean littoral, and the Iranian plateau(Semino 2004).”

        Right. So everywhere from Italy to Iran. A vast area. For you to claim that having that haplogroup somehow proves you are descended frome one of probably hundreds if not thousands of groups who have lived in that vast region over the millenia is nothing but wishful thinking on your part.

        “Again, the genes support the known history – how Jews had originated in the Middle East and how they had ended up in Europe. Just eat it!”

        “The genes” prove no such thing, your palapable desperation notwithstanding.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 23, 2019, 2:32 pm

        Boris: “Khazar region was not that close – it is over the mountains.”

        What are you talking about? Ingushetia lies in the heartland of the former Khazarian Khaganate and north of the Caucasus mountains.

        Boris: “Again, the genes support the known history – how Jews had originated in the Middle East and how they had ended up in Europe. Just eat it!”

        ROFL. Italy, Ingushetia, Caucasus and the Indian Plateau are not in the Middle East. Remove Italy and everything lies in the former expanded Khazarian Khaganate which also controlled the territory of todays East Ukraine. And you know what was south of the Caucasus mountains? The Arabian Rashidun Caliphate.

        Have you found ancient Hebrew genes, yet? No! How could anyone Boris? You keep avoiding this question. So how about claiming that the female ancestor in your family was Jewish Khazarian which was taken by an Arab during the Arab-Khazar wars? It would fit your gene profile, too.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 23, 2019, 3:29 pm

        @talkbalk

        He’s struggling, isn’t he?

        23andme really did a number on poor ol’ Boris.

        Also, if his ‘ethnicity’ is Jewish, how come he has a Russian name?

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 24, 2019, 4:05 am

        MDM: “He’s struggling, isn’t he?”

        That’s typicial for Persian-Arab mixes. Lol.

        MDM: “Also, if his ‘ethnicity’ is Jewish, how come he has a Russian name?”

        “Boris” is one of the Russian variants of the Hebrew name “Baruch”.

      • Boris
        Boris on March 24, 2019, 10:38 am

        For the geographically challenged.

        Ingushetia is a small mountaineous region in the tip of a huge area where the J-M172 is “mainly found”. Khazars lived in the steppes few hundred miles north from that region – and it is not in the area where J-M172 is “mainly found”.

        As the matter of fact, the center of that area is the place where Hittites had their empire. And I wrote before about an image of a Hittite prince who “looked Jewish”.

        So, you people just can’t handle the truth.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 24, 2019, 11:16 am

        You’re tying yourself up in knots here, Boris. A partial quote from the wiki entry on your sacred haplogroup:

        Ingush 88.8% (Balanovsky 2011), Chechens 55.2% (Balanovsky 2011), Georgians 21% (Wells 2001)-72%, Azeris 24% (Di Giacomo 2004)-48% (Wells 2001), Iraqis 24%(Al-Zahery 2011)-25% Al-Zahery 2003 and Sanchez 2005, Uyghurs 34% (Shou 2010),[4] Yaghnobis 32% (Wells 2001), Uzbeks 30.4% (Shou 2010), Greeks 10%-48%(Martinez 2007), Muslim Kurds 28.4%(Nebel 2001), Pashtuns 20-30Z,[5] Lebanese 30% (Semino 2004)[dubious – discuss](Wells 2001), Ashkenazi Jews 24%(Nebel 2001)-29% (Semino 2004)

        It’s pretty bleeden’ obvious that this genetic marker clusters most notably in the Caucasus region. In addition, many many groups have that marker in substantial numbers, but Jews are well down the list, and even then it tells us nothing about where these Jews came from.

        “As the matter of fact, the center of that area is the place where Hittites had their empire. And I wrote before about an image of a Hittite prince who “looked Jewish”.

        So, you people just can’t handle the truth.”

        Oh well that settles it then. Hard proof right there.

        Seriously Boris, you’re providing comic relief at this stage.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 24, 2019, 1:11 pm

        “And I wrote before about an image of a Hittite prince who “looked Jewish”.”

        And he lived and reigned way before the advent of cosmetic surgery, too. The poor schmuck probably had to put up with snide remarks from the other Hittite princes, until he got one of these

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 24, 2019, 3:20 pm

        “Ingush 88.8% (Balanovsky 2011)…/…29% (Semino 2004)”

        “Meet..
        Merowitz, Berowitz, Handelman, Schandelman
        Sperber and Gerber and Steiner and Stone
        Boskowitz, Lubowitz, Aaronson, Baronson,
        Kleinman and Feinman and Freidman and Cohen
        Smallowitz, Wallowitz, Tidelbaum, Mandelbaum
        Levin, Levinsky, Levine and Levi
        Brumburger, Schlumburger, Minkus and Pinkus
        And Stein with an “e-i” and Styne with a “y”!”

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 24, 2019, 5:12 pm

        Boris: “For the geographically challenged.”

        Oh, just hold it, Boris.
        “The Republic of Ingushetia (/ɪŋɡʊˈʃɛtiə/; Russian: Респу́блика Ингуше́тия, tr. Respublika Ingushetiya, IPA: [rʲɪˈspublʲɪkə ɪnɡʊˈʂetʲɪjə]; Ingush: ГIалгIай Мохк, Ghalghaj Moxk), also referred to as simply Ingushetia, is a federal subject of the Russian Federation (a republic), located in the North Caucasus region.”

        North Caucasus!

        “The Khazar Khaganate, or Qaganate (mid‐7th century to c.969), a successor state of the Western Türk Khaganate, constituted one of the largest polities of medieval Eurasia, extending from the Middle Volga region to the North Caucasus and Crimea and from the Don–Dnieper zone to the borders of Khwarazm.”
        https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/9781118455074.wbeoe118

        North Caucasus!

        Google Maps:
        https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ingushetia,+Russia/@42.8637359,45.2442738,8z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x40500e39968d18cd:0x102a3a583f19470!8m2!3d43.4051698!4d44.8202999!5m1!1e4

        North Caucasus!

        And here’s something you won’t like:
        History of “Muslim Khazaria” on the territory of modern Ukraine
        https://islam.in.ua/en/history/history-muslim-khazaria-territory-modern-ukraine

        Boris: “As the matter of fact, the center of that area is the place where Hittites had their empire.”

        What are you even talking about? Ingushetia is north of Georgia! These were the borders of the Hittite empire:
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites#/media/File:Map_Hittite_rule_en.svg

        Even at its greatest extent the northeastern border of this empire was still west of todays Turkey’s northeastern border which is southeast of Georgia in any case.

        So much for “geographically challenged”. Learn to read a map.

      • Boris
        Boris on March 24, 2019, 9:59 pm

        @Talking Lower Back

        Again:

        ““… It is thought that J-M172 may have originated between the Caucasus Mountains, Mesopotamia and the Levant. …

        … Haplogroup J-M172 is found mainly in the Fertile Crescent, the Caucasus (Nasidze 2003), Anatolia, Italy, the Mediterranean littoral, and the Iranian plateau(Semino 2004).”

        BETWEEN. Capisce?

        Now, draw these points on a map and put a point somewhere in BETWEEN. You will end up in the area where Hittites used to rule. Nowhere near Khazar kingdom.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 25, 2019, 4:00 pm

        Boris: “@Talking Lower Back”

        Stop feeling inferior, bubbele. It’s painful.

        “Boris: Again:

        ““… It is thought that J-M172 may have originated between the Caucasus Mountains, Mesopotamia and the Levant. …

        … Haplogroup J-M172 is found mainly in the Fertile Crescent, the Caucasus (Nasidze 2003), Anatolia, Italy, the Mediterranean littoral, and the Iranian plateau(Semino 2004).”

        BETWEEN. Capisce?”

        Oh, you just changed the subject. Again! You were talking about the location of Ingushetia and claimed that it wasn’t in the Khazarian Khaganate, but south of it allthough it is north of the Caucasus mountains which was the most southern region of the Khazarian Khaganate.

        And your first quote says something about the possible origin of J-M172 . That it may have originated between the “Caucasus Mountains, Mesopotamia and the Levant”. But what does that say about the origins of your ancestors? NOTHING. They could be from somwhere between the Caucasus Mountains and Mesopotamia.

        Boris: “Now, draw these points on a map and put a point somewhere in BETWEEN. You will end up in the area where Hittites used to rule. Nowhere near Khazar kingdom.”

        Oh, so your claim is now that your ancestors originated from the region of the Hittite empire. Nowhere near “Eretz Israel”.

        Well done, Boris.

        Btw. have you allready found the genes of an ancient Hebrew? No? In that case your elaborations are completely irrelevant.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on March 26, 2019, 12:59 am

        Let us suppose, just for the moment, and with the help of a very large whisky or two, that all the Nineteenth Century Polish Jews were direct descendants of the Ancient Hebrews of King David’s time, without any admixture from any other group.

        Under the supposition, could someone please set out the chain of moral reasoning that will explain how this descent gives the Polish Jews any rights whatsoever in Palestine?

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 26, 2019, 1:12 pm

        RoHa: “Under the supposition, could someone please set out the chain of moral reasoning that will explain how this descent gives the Polish Jews any rights whatsoever in Palestine?”

        23andme’s answer is “42”. That’s all our Ukrainian bubbele has to know to make a valid claim. Being half Roman his newest credo is:
        “Next year in Londinum, It’s not a dream if you will it.”

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 25, 2019, 8:19 am

      Just noticed I posted my last comment in the wrong place. Should have been further down. But the question still stands Boris….

  22. Ossinev
    Ossinev on March 22, 2019, 3:36 pm

    @Boris

    “Since 23andme had identified me as ethnically European Jew,”

    Fascinating do they offer a test for ethnically European atheists ?

    • Boris
      Boris on March 23, 2019, 12:30 pm

      That’s the point – being Jewish has nothing (or almost nothing) to do with religion. I was born Jewish.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 23, 2019, 12:45 pm

        Don’t be daft, Boris. You were not ‘born Jewish’ any more than I was ‘born Catholic’. Children aren’t born with ready-made religous identities.

        And when you chose to emigrate to Israel – becuase we know all those ‘born Jewish’ yearn to do so – how did you prove your ‘Jewishness’ to the relevant authorities?

      • eljay
        eljay on March 23, 2019, 2:35 pm

        || Boris: … being Jewish has nothing (or almost nothing) to do with religion.

        Jewish is a religion-based identity that can only be acquired by:
        – undergoing a religious conversion to Judaism; or
        – being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

        Jewish is not an identity acquired by:
        – being born in, living in or being up to n-generations removed from the geographic region comprised by “Judea and Samaria” / “the Land of Israel” / the “Jewish State” / the State of Israel;
        – speaking Hebrew; or
        – partaking of Jewish culture or cuisine.

        || … I was born Jewish. ||

        You were born a human being (and a citizen of a country other than Israel) with a religion-based identity at your disposal to accept or reject. You chose to accept it. That’s why you’re Jewish.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 23, 2019, 2:56 pm

        Yes Boris. You were born circumcised and your first word was “Hashem”. ROFL.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 23, 2019, 3:19 pm

        Boris: “I was born Jewish.”

        Don’t believe Ukrainian Nazis, Boris! I gave up being Jewish without any genetic treatment. I just dropped a cutural/religious identity. Btw. are you as black and beautiful as Solomon was?

        MDM: “And when you chose to emigrate to Israel – becaase we know all those ‘born Jewish’ yearn to do so – how did you prove your ‘Jewishness’ to the relevant authorities?”

        They made a genetic test and found that he’s actually mixed Khazar/Persian/Arab/Roman/Anatolian. Haplogroup J-M172/K1A9. But the raum needs volk.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 23, 2019, 10:53 pm

        “how did you prove your ‘Jewishness”

        I believe “Boris” came to Israel long before the “Nation-State” bill. But now that the “Nation-State” bill is law, a minimum standard has surely been set.

      • Boris
        Boris on March 24, 2019, 10:52 am

        Again, as usual, the question boils down to who is a Jew.

        You think is is purely religious identify, and I say it is not.

        Since I am a Jew, I am the last authority to define myself and your rejection denies me and people like me the right for self-determination. Thus, you are bigots.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 24, 2019, 11:19 am

        But you’ve not answered my question Boris.

        When you achieved your lifelong ambition of emigrating to Israel, how did you prove your all-important Jewishness to the authorities? Did you provide the genetic tests from 23andme? Or did you provide evidence of being recognised as adhering to the Jewish faith?

        Genuine question.

      • eljay
        eljay on March 24, 2019, 1:16 pm

        || Boris: Again, as usual, the question boils down to who is a Jew. … ||

        You Zionists do seem concerned with this question.

        || … You think is is purely religious identify, and I say it is not. … ||

        I don’t think it “is purely religious”. But it is, in fact, religion-based.

        || … Since I am a Jew, I am the last authority to define myself and your rejection denies me and people like me the right for self-determination. … ||

        You and people like you have every right to “self-determine” as Jewish people. But you have no right to be supremacists, to have a supremacist state or to do evil unto others.

        || … Thus, you are bigots. ||

        That’s an allegation.

        You’re a Jewish supremacist (Zionist). That’s a fact.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 24, 2019, 1:27 pm

        “Boris” is, in point of fact, a particularly haughty and
        exclusive person, of pre-Adamite ancestral descent.
        You will understand this when I tell you that he can trace his ancestry back, back and back, to a protoplasmal primordial
        atomic globule. Consequently, his ethnic pride is something, something… inconceivable!
        He can’t help it. He was born sneering.

      • echinococcus
        echinococcus on March 24, 2019, 1:32 pm

        Towarischtsch Boris is at it again, with a vengeance:

        “your rejection denies me and people like me the right for self-determination”

        Who did ever deny you your individual vote for the self-determination of your people, i.e. the Russians? That was denied collectively by the dismemberment of the Soviet Union and by the Ukrainian-American-European bandits, not by any Palestinians. So stop behaving like a crazy guy.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 24, 2019, 3:29 pm

        “You were born circumcised and your first word was “Hashem”. ROFL.”

        Isn’t that one of the divine signs which attend the birth of a great Holy Man, prophet or even a Messiah?

      • Boris
        Boris on March 24, 2019, 4:06 pm

        @Maxik

        We showed our notorized copies of the Soviet birth certificates to prove our identities ( we could not bring the originals). The certificates stated that we were Jews. There was no tests or any other questions.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 24, 2019, 4:38 pm

        Boris: “Again, as usual, the question boils down to who is a Jew.”

        Nope. The question was, if any Jew can prove that he or she is a descedant of ancient Hebrew Israelites and not of converts. So far you couldn’t provide a sample of ancient Hebrew genes. And nobody will ever can.

        Boris: “Since I am a Jew, I am the last authority to define myself …”

        See?! It’s just a matter of definition and not of genes.

        Boris” .. and your rejection denies me and people like me the right for self-determination.”

        Every citizen has the right to self-determination in a (real) democracy (not the electroral Apartheid ethnocracy Israel) whether he or she is Jewish or not. But you don’t acquire the right to create a state within a state simply because you are Jewish or any other minority, even if you define Jewry as an ethnicity. The people of a country have a right to self determination within this country despite their heritage or faith. And the fact that anybody can convert to or leave Judaism proves that the idea that Jews are an ethnicity is blatantly racist and stupid.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on March 24, 2019, 9:44 pm

        But, Mooser, family pride must be denied, and set aside, and mortified. So Boris takes up the degrading duty of defending Israel on the Internet. I don’t know whether he is a paid minion or not.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on March 24, 2019, 9:49 pm

        Since I am the Danish Crown Prince, I am the final authority to define myself as the Danish Crown Prince.

        Depressingly, the Danes do not acknowledge my position. (They say only Frederik André Henrik Christian, Count of Monpezat, is Crown Prince.) Their rejection denies me and people like me the right for self-determination. Thus, Danes are bigots.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on March 24, 2019, 10:07 pm

        If “Jew” is to be a meaningful term, I would think there needs to be a list of characteristics which make someone a Jew, and that to be Jew requires having at least a minimum number of those characteristics.

        But once such a list has been decided, it is surely possible for anyone, not just a Jew, to decide whether or not a particular person is a Jew, simply by noting (e.g.) the person wears funny hats and jeans hand-sewn in sunny Ingushetia.

        A person who has the required characteristics is a Jew regardless of whether or not they deny it, and a person who lacks them isn’t a Jew regardless of whether or not they claim it. (Unless not-denying is made a necessary condition, and claiming a sufficient condition.)

        Now Jews might want to assert self-determination by choosing the items that make up the list, and I cannot, at this stage, see much harm in that. However, I don’t see that they have a right to choose those items, any more than Prime Ministers have the right to decide the characteristics of being Prime Minister. (PM do not have that right.)

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 24, 2019, 10:39 pm

        “We showed our notorized copies of the Soviet birth certificates to prove our identities ( we could not bring the originals). The certificates stated that we were Jews”

        Well, there you go. Could there be any better authority on who is a Jew than the Soviet Union?

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 24, 2019, 11:05 pm

        You know, that just shows how anti-Semitic the US is!
        Why, I couldn’t get a notarized statement from the US saying I was Jewish if my life depended on it.

      • Boris
        Boris on March 25, 2019, 12:30 am

        @Mu-mu

        Yes, and if you lived in the Soviet Union you would have earned some credit for your anti-Israel statements – they loved self-hating Jews there.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 25, 2019, 7:03 am

        “We showed our notorized copies of the Soviet birth certificates to prove our identities ( we could not bring the originals). The certificates stated that we were Jews. There was no tests or any other questions.”

        So if, say, the Jew-testing authorities knew that you had formally converted to another faith and had renounced your Jewish faith, would you still have been considered the ‘right sort’ of person for the Jewish state

        And if, say, Ivanka Trump was nuts enough to want to take up residence in the Jewish state, would she be rejected on account of not having been ‘born Jewish’? Since being Jewish has very little to do with religion, as you say?

      • eljay
        eljay on March 25, 2019, 7:23 am

        || Mooser: You know, that just shows how anti-Semitic the US is!
        Why, I couldn’t get a notarized statement from the US saying I was Jewish if my life depended on it. ||

        Surely you don’t need a notarized statement when you’ve got “pastrami on rye, mit a pickle and chicken soup”, no?

      • Boris
        Boris on March 25, 2019, 10:54 am

        Maxic-baby, your questions show that you have no idea what Israel is. Yet, you and people like you feel a need to post your opinions criticizing the only Jewish state. You really need to get your head examined.

        Again, there was no religious tests. All we needed was to prove our Jewish ancestry. 40 years ago it was done with documents, which we had. Also at that time an Israeli Jewish relative could confirm the relationship.

        Now, another option is to do a genetic test – with the modern science confirming family history.

        As far as religious affiliations, in Israel Judaism is treated more like a tradition – with Jewish holidays, calendar, etc. But nobody is being forced to attend a synagogue. There are neighborhoods where religious people live and there is a social pressure to confirm. But nobody is forced to live in those areas.

        As far as Ivanka Trump, Jews have a tradition of accepting religious converts. I think Israel recognizes only Orthodox converts – none of this Reform easy ones. So, she would need to bring her papers from her rabbi, and the local religious authorities would confirm that she is kosher. I think that’s the process – as I had written before I am an atheist and am really far from it.

        Thinking of converting? I have heard it is not easy …

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 25, 2019, 12:10 pm

        “Surely you don’t need a notarized statement when you’ve got “pastrami on rye, mit a pickle and chicken soup”, no?”

        I’ll just say it’s Bánh mì and pho.

        Or I could ‘cover up a tell-tale breath with Sen-Sen’.

      • gamal
        gamal on March 25, 2019, 3:32 pm

        “I’ll just say it’s Bánh mì and pho”

        Just a sandwich and some soup, is that too much to ask of heritage and sen sen discontinued don’t tell me you can’t even get Vigroids anymore …I suppose Nigroids, for throat and voice will have to do, for those who dare..(it’s 68.6% Glycyrrhizae and only 2.06% menthol) Soup, Sandwich and a Nigroid, that was a night out in Southend when I was a kid.

        https://picclick.co.uk/Rare-NIGROIDS-Tin-with-CONTENTS-Black-Throat-123611037887.html#&gid=1&pid=1

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 25, 2019, 3:39 pm

        “So, she would need to bring her papers from her rabbi, and the local religious authorities would confirm that she is kosher. I think that’s the process”

        Yes, the Rolling Stones used to sing a song about it.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 25, 2019, 4:10 pm

        Boris: “Yes, and if you lived in the Soviet Union you would have earned some credit for your anti-Israel statements – they loved self-hating Jews there.”

        What does anti-Israel statements have to do with self-hatred? That sounds as ridiculous as stalinistic propaganda. Are you sure that you don’t hate yourself for having to defend an Apartheid state and its crimes against humanity? I would.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on March 26, 2019, 12:38 am

        “Soup, Sandwich and a Nigroid, that was a night out in Southend when I was a kid.”

        And you’d still have 1/9 change from a ten bob note.

      • RoHa
        RoHa on March 26, 2019, 12:51 am

        “criticizing the only Jewish state. ”

        Why is this “only” bit important? No-one seems to think that being the only Japanese state gives Japan any special privileges.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        Maximus Decimus Meridius on March 26, 2019, 8:36 am

        @Boris

        “Again, there was no religious tests. All we needed was to prove our Jewish ancestry. 40 years ago it was done with documents, which we had. Also at that time an Israeli Jewish relative could confirm the relationship.”

        Right. But if what I’ve heard is correct, someone who has a father who passes the Jewish test and a mother who does not, will not pass the Jewish test in Israel? Correct?

        “Now, another option is to do a genetic test – with the modern science confirming family history.”

        OK Boris you’re going to have to elaborate on this one for me.

        Are you telling me that ‘genetic tests’ are accepted as tests of ‘Jewishness’ by the Israeli authorities? So that someone who according to 23andme has a gene which is most commonly found in the Caucasus region passes the Jewishness test?

        Please provide further info, with a link to Israeli official policy on ‘genetic tests’ if possible.

        “As far as Ivanka Trump, Jews have a tradition of accepting religious converts. I think Israel recognizes only Orthodox converts – none of this Reform easy ones. So, she would need to bring her papers from her rabbi, and the local religious authorities would confirm that she is kosher. I think that’s the process – as I had written before I am an atheist and am really far from it.”

        But Boris, you said Jewishness had nothing to do with religion!

        Yet here you are telling us that someone who according to your beloved 23andme would likely be considered to have mixed Scottish and Czech genetic markers could indeed be accepted as Jewish provided she meets certain religious requirements? How is that, if religion is irrelevant to this whole Jewishness thing?

      • eljay
        eljay on March 26, 2019, 9:54 am

        || Maximus Decimus Meridius: … But Boris, you said Jewishness had nothing to do with religion! … ||

        Zionists like Boris say a lot of crazy (and hateful and immoral) things but they and he know full well that Jewish…
        i) …is religion-based identity that can only be acquired by:
        – undergoing a religious conversion to Judaism; or
        – being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism;
        ii) … is not an identity that can be acquired by:
        – being born in, living in or being up to n-generations removed from the geographic region comprised by “Judea and Samaria” / “the Land of Israel” / the “Jewish State” / the State of Israel;
        – speaking Hebrew; or
        – partaking of Jewish culture or cuisine.

    • oldgeezer
      oldgeezer on March 24, 2019, 11:35 pm

      @Ossinev

      “Fascinating do they offer a test for ethnically European atheists ?”

      I don’t doubt they do if you asked and paid for it.

      Indentical twins submitted their dna to a number of different dna firms. They received different results even from the identical vendor.

      These dna firms are not science. Just a great come on for the truly gullible.

  23. Mooser
    Mooser on March 24, 2019, 1:16 pm

    “Since I am a Jew, I am the last authority to define myself…” “Boris”

    Well, apostatize away, if you like, but I thought the Jewish State determines who is a Jew. Have you checked the Nation-State law for the minimum percentages?

    • Boris
      Boris on March 24, 2019, 8:09 pm

      I don’t think the law states it, but it is long held view that if a person’s grandparent is/was Jewish, then this person is recognized as a Jew. Thus, the minimum percentage is 25.

      Now, this may not be enough for some rabbis, but I think from the state point of view, that’s the case.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 24, 2019, 10:53 pm

        “Thus, the minimum percentage is 25.”

        Yes, I was pretty sure they would lower the standards when not enough high-percentage Jews would go to Israel.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 25, 2019, 3:31 pm

        That’s how one becomes 100% Jewish and can claim … well … black and beautiful as Solomon.

      • MHughes976
        MHughes976 on March 25, 2019, 7:18 pm

        The line ‘I am black but beautiful’ of Song of Songs 1:5 is spoken not by Solomon but by his Shulamite lover, who explains that ‘the sun has looked upon her’ and darkened her skin as she minded the vineyard until she got bored with the work. She mentions that Solomon dwells in a rent with dark curtains, so he likes dark colours both in textiles and in people.

      • gamal
        gamal on March 26, 2019, 8:34 am

        “which 1.5625% of you is Scottish?”

        The bit that seethes under the Sasanach yoke, and is also shattered by those oft repeated words “Aberdeen nil”

        It was from a time when I had 64 antecedents on my mothers side I only know of two of them one Irish one Scottish, and that’s it, I have seen Brave Heart and I would accept 1% of Scotland.

      • Mooser
        Mooser on March 26, 2019, 11:50 am

        “The bit that seethes under the Sasanach yoke,”

        We ain’t going to work on Maggie’s farm no more!

  24. Boris
    Boris on March 25, 2019, 8:27 am

    No, Mu-Mu.

    25% was a long held European standard, that was adopted by Nazis. Israel only held the view that if antisemites determine someone to be a Jew, then Israel had to do the same and offer a protection to that person.

    • eljay
      eljay on March 25, 2019, 8:39 am

      || Boris: … Israel only held the view that if antisemites determine someone to be a Jew, then Israel had to do the same and offer a protection to that person. ||

      I’ve been accused of being an anti-Semite. I determine that all “Arab” refugees from Israel are actually Jews (as well as Israeli). I look forward to Israel repatriating and protecting them.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on March 25, 2019, 12:19 pm

      “25% was a long held European standard, that was adopted by Nazis”

      Of course it was, you dolt. They were trying to destroy us.

      A person who is 25% Jewish is 75% not-Jewish!. So if two 25% get married they will produce children who are 150% not-Jewish (75% + 75& = 150%).

      • gamal
        gamal on March 25, 2019, 1:40 pm

        “25% was a long held European standard” ?

        Really! We were under the one drop rule to avoid inner bifurcations, black is dominant not regressive (recessive), but I am 1.5625% Scottish as if that would provide me with any relief.

      • Talkback
        Talkback on March 25, 2019, 8:06 pm

        Mooser: “A person who is 25% Jewish is 75% not-Jewish!. So if two 25% get married they will produce children who are 150% not-Jewish (75% + 75& = 150%).”

        Oh, oh, and also minus 50% Jewish! Wow!

      • RoHa
        RoHa on March 26, 2019, 12:40 am

        At the risk of indelicacy, may I ask which 1.5625% of you is Scottish?

      • RoHa
        RoHa on March 26, 2019, 12:41 am

        Keep working those percentages, Mooser.

  25. Ossinev
    Ossinev on March 25, 2019, 10:30 am

    A question which Boris being into DNAsties should really address is “Did Jews evolve like all other human beings as in Homo Erectus/Sapiens etc or would such inference be seen as virulently “Anti -Semitic”.

    Personally l I have no issues with the thought of being descended from apes. Not sure whether 23andme is able to go that far back though even as an optional extra on the search package so I will just assume that I did and save the cost.

    • Boris
      Boris on March 25, 2019, 3:49 pm

      @Oss

      “Did Jews evolve like all other human beings …”

      This question was raised some 80 years ago. That’s why we need Israel, so to not depend on the answer.

      ” … and save the cost.”

      That’s very Jewish…

      • eljay
        eljay on March 26, 2019, 7:13 am

        || Boris: … ” … and save the cost.”

        That’s very Jewish… ||

        Seems rather anti-Semitic of you to imply that Jews are concerned with money.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on March 25, 2019, 5:09 pm

      “Did Jews evolve like all other human beings …”

      Definitely. There is no special capacity to ameliorate or reverse the effects of endogamy.

    • Talkback
      Talkback on March 25, 2019, 8:11 pm

      Ossinev: “Did Jews evolve like all other human beings …”

      Not all of them. Some think that the right to self determination is not the civic right of the locals, but the genetic right of someone whose ancestors was allegedly a local 2000 years ago. ROFL.

  26. Ossinev
    Ossinev on March 26, 2019, 7:48 am

    @Boris
    “This question was raised some 80 years ago. That’s why we need Israel, so to not depend on the answer”

    Nope can`t get my gentile head round that one . Check your Hasbara manual and perhaps indulge me with a fuller explanation. Hopefully that will enlighten myself and all those nations on the Jewish evolution/ apes issue.

    “That’s very Jewish…”

    Well it sure beats being called Anti – Semitic. Have you just discovered trope irony ?

  27. Boris
    Boris on March 26, 2019, 12:00 pm

    “… can`t get my gentile head round that one ”

    You were essentially asking if Jews are human. And I hate to bring the big H into the discussion, but we were being exterminated because many “gentiles” answered “No”. Did not have to check my Hasbara manual for that.

    And yes, I found it very ironic that you exhibit the same traits that antisemities like you attribute to Jews.

    • eljay
      eljay on March 26, 2019, 1:12 pm

      || Boris: … You were essentially asking if Jews are human. And I hate to bring the big H into the discussion, but we were being exterminated because many “gentiles” answered “No”. … ||

      Terrible, right? Makes you* want to humanize all people and to advocate respect for justice, equality and human rights everywhere and always.
      _________________
      (*Obviously not you personally. You’re a Zionist.)

    • gamal
      gamal on March 26, 2019, 1:29 pm

      “And yes, I found it very ironic that you exhibit the same traits that antisemities like you attribute to Jews”

      It was only a matter of time before the Reverse Anti-Semitism appeared, there’s no excuse for it.

    • Mooser
      Mooser on March 26, 2019, 3:43 pm

      “You were essentially asking if Jews are human. And I hate to bring the big H into the discussion, but we were being exterminated because many “gentiles” answered “No”.

      This opens up a new line of thought. Could it be possible there are other people, people other than Jews, who have a hand in affecting Jewish identity?

  28. Ossinev
    Ossinev on March 26, 2019, 2:15 pm

    @Boris
    No Boris I was not ” essentially asking if Jews were human” . You have simply invented that. Jews are human irrespective of the fact that Zionist Jews treat their fellow human beings the Palestinians as less than human. I was asking if you along with other Zionist Jews be they American,Ukrainian or Welsh etc ad nauseum subscibe to the principle of humans whatever their religion having evolved from apes.

    Not sure what “antisemities” are but I will assume that you mean “anti – semitics”. I find the accusation typical of Zionist Jews. If they wish to avoid answering a direct question or are simply perplexed by the inherent contradictions in their “chosen people/ promised land ” ravings then they revert to the same old same old “anti – semite ” accusation.

    I would ask the same question of any other adherent of any other religion whether or not they consider adherence to their particular religion makes them chosen by the particular God or type of God they “worship”.

    You really must regroup and reflect. Failing that just get out more. Talk to/converse with people who do not adhere to a faith and accept the principle of evolution. It may well open your eyes to the reality of life and the history of life and you will find I hope and expect that the vast majority of these people believe naturally in human rights and respect for their fellow human beings – principles which Zionist Jews have patently abandoned in their barbaric colonisation of a native people and their lands.

    • Boris
      Boris on March 26, 2019, 4:18 pm

      Ossinev March 25, 2019, 10:30 am
      A question which Boris being into DNAsties should really address is “Did Jews evolve like all other human beings as in Homo Erectus/Sapiens etc or would such inference be seen as virulently “Anti -Semitic”.
      “”””””””
      In that comment you obviously separate Jews and their evolution from “other humans”. Only an antisemite (a Jew-hater, not a person who is against all semites) would make such a statement.

      Also, you are not too sharp even considering your bias, and your Kumbaya singing is boring.

      I am done responding to your comments.

    • RoHa
      RoHa on March 26, 2019, 10:25 pm

      Ossinev, humans are the children of the Gods (Kami).

      The Japanese are the children of the Sun Goddess Amaterasu, the most important of the living kami. My wife reminds me of this from time to time.

  29. SulaymanF
    SulaymanF on March 26, 2019, 6:01 pm

    To go even further, what the Congresswoman said was the opposite of what Schumer and Zionists are alleging here on 2 fronts:
    1) She said that in order to be seen as a “good” American, you need to be loyal to Israel, not that those loyalties are at odds
    2) She was talking about herself—not about Jews

  30. Ossinev
    Ossinev on March 27, 2019, 9:59 am

    @Boris
    “In that comment you obviously separate Jews and their evolution from “other humans”. Only an antisemite (a Jew-hater, not a person who is against all semites) would make such a statement.

    Also, you are not too sharp even considering your bias, and your Kumbaya singing is boring.”

    Ah poor Boris spinning in ever decreasing circles and coming up with even more desperate and unlikely diversions. Particularly fascinating is the apparent acceptance that there were/are Semites other than Jews. Hasbara Central will be shocked !

    Good to know that I have gone from being “very Jewish” back to my old “anti – semite” self . As I have said Zionist Jews when faced with logical contradictions and conundrums which they cannot explain or explain away resort to the time honoured “anti – Semite” accusation

    WTF has Kumbaya got to do with anything . Are you intimating that us atheists secretly sing religious songs around a camp fire at night?

    As for me being boring well sunshine I am nowhere near in the same league as you. I take back what I previously suggested. Please stay in and avoid going out at all if only to spare the patience and time of people who live in the real world as opposed to your ZioFantasy bubble.

    As for being “done responding”. Well tragic but then you never did respond to the question asked which invited a straight forward post Darwinian scientific response – yes or no. So zero loss there.

    Toodle pip.

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