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‘We have heard all your arguments before’: Gaslighting, the burden of proof, and the politics of recognition with the Armenian Genocide 

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Armenian descendants of those massacred, displaced, and in exile have been organizing for recognition for over three generations. It’s been a longtime coming and has taken far too long, all because of the geopolitical and imperial interests of the United States and Turkey at the expense of truth and justice. The politics of recognition have always been hotly debated in the community but for the descendants of survivors the passage of U.S. resolution HR 296 is heartwarming not because the U.S. has any moral authority, but because it means finally our decades-long day-in and day-out activism has come to fruition.

For myself, the descendant of eight survivors on both sides of my family and as a racial justice organizer, the politics of recognition has felt like being in a multi-generational abusive relationship. Our community every year is gaslighted as we scream our stories. Historically, when we have resisted militantly we are condemned. We when we use non-violent tactics like campaigns for recognition, divestment, and boycott, we are also condemned. For our critics, it seems there is actually no “right” way to resist.

Armenian Genocide denial and complicity in that denial is a systematic, world-wide gaslighting of our global Armenian community. It is the undefinable burden of proof, and one that always has a moving yardstick. It is saying “show us” as we shout our stories, and then being called crazy as we scream. The government of Turkey is like an abusive boyfriend. It is a cycle of violence.

However the recognition debate has always been only part of the puzzle. Genuine justice is needed which also includes reparations, material restitution, and most importantly an existential reckoning in the hearts of the Turkish public. Recognition is not a statement, it is a strategy. It is a piece in a very long history of Armenian struggle, a struggle that has used all of the tactics in the toolbox of justice organizing.

What remains clear is the material reality of our people; spread across the world like shattered glass, each day having to argue, debate, and re-discover what it means to be Armenian. Because it is what we are forced to do. We are a nation that has had to live and define itself transnationally. Because of the Genocide, because of our relationship to land. This is the pain and the opportunity. Our physical existence is proof of the Genocide enough.

Sophia’s mom side from Kharpert (Harput) whose Armenian community was almost entirely destroyed. The Turkish government today claims there were no Armenians there or if there were they were traitors and deserved death and displacement.

Sophia’s mom side from Kharpert (Harput) whose Armenian community was almost entirely destroyed. The Turkish government today claims there were no Armenians there or if there were they were traitors and deserved death and displacement.

There are 15 million of us in forced exile, in diaspora that continues to be denied access to justice, to our memory, to our history, and our land through systematic erasure. The Armenian Genocide is not a past event, it’s an ongoing struggle whose logics are utilized in Turkey today and by its global accomplices. Genocide is not a one time event, it is a structure, with racism as its defining quality. And so through every generation, we must actively build and support movements to eradicate racism, the heart of genocide, in our region and globally today.

All advocates of justice should stand with the Armenian people in seeking justice, and work for U.S. recognition and reparations for it’s own bloody history of genocide. The U.S. is itself an genocide nation, ongoing, against Black communities and indigenous nations. It is why it participates in and covers them up so well around the world. The notion that the U.S. has any moral authority presupposes it has a conscience. As Stokely Carmichael told us, it has none.

Meanwhile, those who are using Turanist, also known as “Turkish nationalist,” logics against community organizing of a displaced and dispossessed people, are enabling injustice. Any utilization of the “two sides” narrative that Turkey and Armenians need to sit down and “work out the facts” on the Armenian Genocide is normalization. The privileging of Western academics as the arbiters of truth above Armenian collective memory, or saying there is no academic consensus when there is, is straight out of the government of Turkey playbook and should be named as devices of this racial supremacy. The notion that this is just two “feuding religions” with “longstanding ancient hatreds” rather than about structures of power, race and marginalization, like in all other parts of the world, is textbook Orientalism. Not only is it historically inaccurate, it serves the purposes of power.

Armenian boys outside a school. The Ottoman-era photograph is kept by Sophia's mother under her bed in a shoebox.

Armenian boys outside a school. The Ottoman-era photograph is kept by Sophia’s mother under her bed in a shoebox.

Today Armenians are banned from the country I live in, the United States, by the thousands because of the #MuslimBan, and are experiencing displacement from Ramallah to Baghdad, and are faced with compounded effects of US sanctions on Iran. But our stories are not told because we complicate the narrative, because our stories are not valued in both the discourse of power and the resistance to power. Our physical erasure from our homeland, is mirrored in discourse.

As Armenians, who continue to be denied justice, we have heard all your arguments before. There are many devices through which this racism from Turkey and its allies works. These are the devices Turanism that the government of Turkey and its allies use to deny justice for the Armenian Genocide:

  • Normalization, “Two sides Narrative” of “two equal sides” with “two versions of history” that both just need to come to the table to “work out the facts,”
  • They were “relocated” under the conditions of “war” during which millions died including Turks in combat, from diseases, malnutrition, starvation and massacres. “Turks died too” often cited is the conspiracy historian Justin McCarthy’s work at the University of Louisiana
  • No legal basis, no (Western) academic consensus “let the historians decide”
  • The Armenian diaspora is a lobby, a dark shadow with sinister grips on the world
  • Racialize Armenians as imperialists and foreign agents & deserve death
  • The Armenian Genocide is a Western Lie
  • Armenians were never in Turkey and are not indigenous to the region
  • Construct Armenians as “terrorists” using War on Terror boogeyman logics
  • Say we should look at the “next 100 years, not the last”
  • Say the Armenians rose against the State and thus the entire race deserved extermination
  • The Armenians in Turkey are an ethnic “minority,” not who is left 
  • This is a conflict between two nation states, the Republic of Turkey and the Republic of Armenia (est. 1991), not the descendants of those displaced and Turkey
  • This needs more “dialogue” and “peace,” construct descendants as violent
  • Deny any public discourse in Turkey by ethnic Turks, ban Turkish academics that discuss this history
  • Jail those who use the word Armenian Genocide using Turkish Penal Code 301 on charges of “racial hatred” and insulting “Turkishness” so there can’t be historical debate
  • Assassinate and repress Armenian institutions, journalists, and initiatives in Turkey that seek to educate the Turkish public about this history, stoke supremacist groups and cover up their crimes
  • Confiscate, bulldoze, leave to ruin and rename Armenian cultural and sacred sites to erase any trace that Armenians were there, especially in Southeastern Turkey to an absurd point, even trying to erase Armenian nomenclature in studies of the land
  • Gaslight Armenian families from these cities, say their material evidence, documented survivor testimonies and history is propaganda
  • Hold US military bases there so the US will never back reparations, many of the military bases are on genocide victims’ confiscated land as in the case of Incirlik U.S. base
  • Say Turkey is the only “good” democracy in MENA, utilize the racist construction of “good vs bad Muslims” which racializes other countries as “terrorists,” against U.S. national security
  • Infiltrate and undermine Armenian-American organizations in the U.S. by the U.S. government via bodies like the CIA and the FBI, place informants in meetings
  • Stack the EU and International courts so no form of Genocide Convention case can win
  • Use the Armenian Genocide and freedom for the Palestinians as pawns, to be used with Israel at any given moment, place Armenians’ and Palestinian Arabs’ freedom as conditional
  • Distance itself from Ottoman history, “Ataturk ended all that came before,” make ahistorical break between the current Republic of Turkey and its formation
  • Name and cite Bernard Lewis, known Orientalist and denier, an “expert” because he is a white man
  • Hold Syrian refugees rhetorically and physically hostage in this debate, dehumanize them by using them as collateral against the moves by the US and the EU, while fundamentally denying Syrian-Armenian refugees access to the land many are actually from as survivors of the Genocide. Threaten to expel nationals of Armenia.
  • Find allies in American citizens, through funding, conferences, and non-profit organizations and hold money and support on condition
  • Say there was a joint commission the Republic of Armenia refused to come to, while simultaneously constructing millions of Armenian families’ stories around the world as lies
  • Have Western students go on “two-sides” propaganda trips to meet with government officials of the Republic of Turkey and the Republic of Armenia like in the “Turkey-Armenia initiative” of the infamous Olive Tree Initiative

Everyday as notions of belonging, identity, and place are debated in our community, I am reminded that we did not ask for these debates, they were thrust upon us. Our material reality of mass exile continues to remain after the back and forth in the media headlines have disappeared.

Every year they tell us bring out our dead, and we do. Every year Armenians bring out our dead, and the U.S. questions their validity and examines their bodies. The politics of recognition is deeply dehumanizing. Our community knows this the most. So, for us Armenians, we know U.S. resolution HR 296 is one step of a very long road. One that sits uneasy. One we inherited and one that will have a legacy. One we walk in stride with our ancestors and with those yet to come.

On the morning of the vote, my family and I were glued to our TV sets. It felt like every Armenian I knew was watching CSPAN together, holding our breath, as we always do every other time only to be crushed. On Twitter, we were speaking to each other across the world, we were saying, maybe just maybe this time, though, the United States would get it right. And it did.

A week later we awoke to President Trump inviting Erdoğan for a private meeting in Washington D.C. where he rolled out the red carpet for the President of Turkey. He assured him no formal Armenian Genocide recognition by his administration, the final and most important piece of official U.S. recognition, would occur. As revealed in Turkish media, Trump had even offered to call the Armenian Genocide, a “war.” When giving a press conference to international media, Trump looked on gleefully as Erdoğan denied the genocide publicly to the world. He also invited five Republican lawmakers to the closed door meeting, including Senator Lindsey Graham. Graham, announced within hours, he was blocking the Senate version of the bill. When, for the first time in history, it finally had the votes to pass.

Any notion that the Armenian Genocide is an imperialist lie is not only laughable, it is precisely because of Western imperialism that no justice for the Genocide exists. It is the West who has given the government of Turkey a most well-funded shield, an arsenal of military weaponry and support, an apparatus of denialist infrastructure. But these are not just arguments, or something to be trivialized, these are the discourses of a racial project. Genocide is a structure not an event.

There is a saying we use in Armenian that says the struggle is eternal. And so is our reality. We have to wage justice around the world, because we are here. We are not there. Genocide in action. The Armenian Genocide is an ongoing struggle. A story of exile, of racism, and of erasure.

Those who stand in our way, may have many faces and many tongues, but we have heard all your arguments before.

Sophia Armen

Sophia Armen is a 28-year old racial justice organizer, scholar and writer born and raised in Los Angeles. She is the descdendant of Armenian Genocide survivors from Istanbul, Kharpert, and Van. She is a PhD Student in Ethnic Studies at the University of California, San Diego focusing on Middle Eastern-American racial formation from the early twentieth century until now. She serves as the Chairwoman of The FF, an organization bringing together youth of color to fight the Trump administration and American imperialism.

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20 Responses

  1. zaid on November 21, 2019, 5:08 pm

    Can i ask you what is the end goal(s) of the movement of the (Armenian genocide recognition)?Is it just the recognition? or is there a territorial or monetary demands from turkey?

    • echinococcus on November 22, 2019, 1:54 am

      Yes, you can ask. The “movement of the (Armenian genocide recognition)” is defined by its name. When there is a movement for other things, we’ll call it other things.

      Just curious: would these “other things” undo the genocide of the Armenian people?

  2. Misterioso on November 22, 2019, 9:33 am

    For the record:

    A little known fact is that despite the severe shortage of food and the deplorable situation in general in their country, including seizure of their crops by British and Ottoman forces, Palestinians welcomed and provided for thousands of Armenian Christian refugees fleeing massacres at the hands of the Turkish government during WWI. Vast numbers of them found refuge and hospitality throughout the Arab world where they established new communities that thrive to this day. Indeed, during my years in the region, I came to know many descendants of the Armenian refugees, especially in Cairo.

  3. zaid on November 22, 2019, 2:08 pm

    I think the article mentioned reparations.
    Anyway. I respect the Armenians and i do belive that they were subject genocide and that unjust situations should be ractified ,but i dont belive that a turkish man or woman are guilty or responsible for something that their government did 100 year ago .

  4. echinococcus on November 22, 2019, 6:59 pm

    Zaid,

    Today’s Turkish Republic government is the direct, institutional continuator of the Union & Progress government that perpetrated the genocide and expulsion of the Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians (not to mention other, “”minor” nationalities, has worked like crazy to eject their remaining pockets, and erase their culture and their very memory. The current tepidly Islamist government has continued denying it and repressing any reminders; not only that but since 2015 it is in a government alliance with the remains of the >100-year-old military dictatorship and with the local Nazi party (more than anything, for the purpose of repressing the Kurds, but also to suppress any stirrings of remaining small minorities).

    If that ain’t being responsible, I don’t know what is. Who ever spoke of “a Turkish man or woman”?

  5. Yitzhak9 on December 2, 2019, 5:04 pm

    You just erased the identity of Bernard Lewis by referring to him as a “white man”.
    Ashkenazi Jews are Levantine in DNA and have more of a claim to Middle East than you do.
    Furthermore Jews were never seen as “white” or ethnically European while in Europe, we lived in segregated areas, spoke different languages, and were subject to discrimination.
    Do some research before you talk like that.

    • echinococcus on December 3, 2019, 12:38 am

      “Ashkenazi Jews are Levantine in DNA and have more of a claim to Middle East than you do.”

      Genau getroffen! Jawohl. Wie recht Sie haben, Herr Lehrer.

      • echinococcus on December 3, 2019, 9:24 am

        “Do some research before you talk like that.”

        I must say that I am profoundly impressed, Herr Levantiner mit claim to Middle East. Your mentioning DNA revealed a brilliant knowledge of biochemistry and population genetics.

        I have no doubt that you personally did all the mapping, nucleotide by single nucleotide, then ran all the huge charlatanistic statistical apparatus with a keen critical eye, to finally come to the surprising conclusion of Levantinity of the Eskenazí. We the peons in the lower rungs of research are flabbergasted. A feat unequaled since the 1930s, when Rosenberg concluded a similarly wissenschaftliche Research.

    • Talkback on December 3, 2019, 11:19 am

      Yitzhak9: “Ashkenazi Jews are Levantine in DNA and have more of a claim to Middle East than you do.”

      Besides the allready debunked nonsense that “Ashkenazi Jews are Levantine in DNA” … Why do they have “more claim” to the “Middle East”? Is claim to a land not longer based on longterm residency or citizenship (like in the case of the pre 48 citizens of Palestine) but simply on DNA? Why doesn’t it surprise me that this sounds like very much like the Nazi’s judenrein ideology?

      • Yitzhak9 on December 5, 2019, 10:33 pm

        @TalkBack
        How has it been debunked? Ashkenazi Jews are from the modern-area of Israel.
        Many are mixed with some European but look at any research that the average Ashkenazi has upwards to 60% of their ancestry coming from the Levant. Some are even as high as 85%. Why do you think Jews look different than Europeans? We didn’t mix much so we retained most of are DNA which is why a Polish Jew is actually genetically closer to a Saudi than to a Polish gentile.
        Obviously there are many who pass as white but this is also the case of many Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese who look white.
        My family who had been living in Russia/Modern Day Ukraine had dark curly hair, light brown skin, and typical Semitic noses. They were literally killed and discriminated against for not being white.
        Here’s a picture of some Ashkenazis and tell me that they look like Eastern Europeans:
        https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9fc7a68fd1b75b1f422ecf44016782e2
        I’ve particularly seen this author claim that Eastern Turkey belongs to Armenia which is why I’m saying it’s hypocritical of her to in her terms “gaslight” Ashkenazi Jews and their ties to Israel by labeling us as “European” when we are not and never were seen as such.
        Realistically Palestinians and Israelis should have equal rights as citizens and be able to live together but that’s not going to happen when neither side wants it.
        I’m saying that the location of Israel is not random, we have genetic ties to it but that didn’t make what happened right. However, when you had Jews who were being kicked out of neighboring Arab countries as well as another million or so from the Holocaust, they didn’t have anywhere to go and the UN partitioned a Jewish area for us.

      • Talkback on December 7, 2019, 1:06 pm

        Yitzhak9: “How has it been debunked?”

        Genetic analysis

        Yitzhak9: “Ashkenazi Jews are from the modern-area of Israel.”

        Nope. And there will never be scientific method to prove your point with such a precision.

        Yitzhaj9: “Why do you think Jews look different than Europeans?”

        Many of them actually don’t. And we were talking about Ashkenazi Jews,

        Y9: “We didn’t mix much …”

        Obviously you don’t know anything about the Jewish history of proselytism. How do you explain chinese Jews?

        Y9: “… so we retained most of are DNA which is why a Polish Jew is actually genetically closer to a Saudi than to a Polish gentile”

        ROFL. Actually a Palestinian is genetially closer to ancient Hebrews than most of the Jews.

        Y9: “Here’s a picture of some Ashkenazis and tell me that they look like Eastern Europeans:”

        They look like people from Turkmenistan. How about the people on this picture:
        https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/scientists-reveal-jewish-historys-forgotten-turkish-roots-a6992076.html

        Y9: “Realistically Palestinians and Israelis should have equal rights as citizens …”

        I didn’t know that you support the right of return for Palestinians and reject the idea of Israel as a Jewish state.

        Y9: “I’m saying that the location of Israel is not random, we have genetic ties to it but that didn’t make what happened right. ”

        “Genetic ties” are legally irrelevant and don’t create any rights. It’s just a pathetic attempt to create baseless claims. Foreigners have no right to immigrate to a country or create a state there without the consent of its people. And no people have a right to maintain domination by keeping people of a different heritage and faith expelled. That’s textbook Apartheid. The citizens of Palestine in 1948 – Jews and Nonjews – had the right to see their state under mandate to be released into independence like in the case of all other Class A mandates

        Y9: “However, when you had Jews who were being kicked out of neighboring Arab countries …

        Where they really “kicked out” or did they choose to leave? And when exactly? Before or after Jews kicked out Palestinians?

        Y9 “… as well as another million or so from the Holocaust, they didn’t have anywhere to go and the UN partitioned a Jewish area for us.”

        Since when do refugees have a right to create a state? And no, the UN didn’t partition the country. They recommended a partition plan. And when they saw that this plan led to violence they worked towards putting Palestine under UN trusteeship. That’s why Security Council resolution 46 asked both sides in April 1948 to abstain from declaring statehood. The Arabs side accepted a truce brokered by the US at the end of April 1948 and the Jewish agency rejected it.

        “…, U.S. officials there faced the Jewish Agency’s rejection of a truce as well as a trusteeship arrangement to replace what the State Department and the White House conceded to be the failure of the partition plan. In evaluating the situation, Robert McClintock, a special assistant to Dean Rusk, then director of the Office of UN Affairs, deliberated over the implications of these developments. It may well be, he speculated, that Washington would soon be confronted with a situation created by Jewish military forces, including the Haganah, the Stern Gang and Irgun, in which it would have to determine whether a “Jewish armed attack on Arab communities in Palestine is legitimate or whether it constitutes such a threat to international peace and security as to call for coercive measures by the Security Council.”15 Washington would face what McClintock called an “anomalous situation,” in which “the Jews will be the actual aggressors against the Arabs. However, the Jews will claim that they are merely defending the boundaries of a state which were traced by the UN and approved, at least in principle, by two-thirds of the UN membership.””
        http://mepc.org/journal/middle-east-policy-archives/us-policy-israel/palestine-1948?print

  6. Mooser on December 6, 2019, 6:37 pm

    “I’m saying that the location of Israel is not random, we have genetic ties to it…”

    Yes, very true. When my Mom went to Israel, she brought back a bottle of Dead Sea mud, so we kids could rub it into our chromosomes every night before bed.
    Ain’t it great to rub your genes with the good ol’ Dead Sea mud?

    So,”Yitzhak” does this “genetic” connection to Palestine mean every Jew must want to go there, or are you trying to convince non-Jews (of whom there are some) to send us there?

    • Talkback on December 7, 2019, 1:15 pm

      Dr. Mooser, is this “genetic ties to a land” thing an example of nature fetishism? Rubbing the tree, making love to vegetables? Sexecology?
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexecology

      • Mooser on December 7, 2019, 7:21 pm

        “Rubbing the tree, making love to vegetables?”

        No, you just rub it into your chromosomes and sing a little song:

        “When the sun goes down, the tide goes out,
        The tribes gather ’round and they all begin to shout,
        Hey! Hey! listen here, bub,
        It’s a treat to rub your genes with the good ol’ Dead Sea Mud
        It’s a treat to rub your genes with that good ol’ Dead Sea Mud”

      • Mooser on December 7, 2019, 7:38 pm

        Of course, it’s up to you. You can rub a tree if you get near one, or call any vegetable, and the chances are good the vegetable will respond to you.

      • Talkback on December 8, 2019, 1:46 pm

        Dr. Mooser: “No, you just rub it into your chromosomes and sing a little song:”

        Ah, the good old “chromosomes and song” ideology. Allthough I could swear that it was called different in the 1930s amongst German philosophers.

        Dr. Mooser: “Of course, it’s up to you. You can rub a tree if you get near one, or call any vegetable, and the chances are good the vegetable will respond to you.”

        How about rubbing an Opuntia Cactus? If I’m not mistaken that’s how Jewish Israelis are created which is the reason why they call them that way. Well, not exactly Cactusson, but you know what I mean.

        And does it also help talking to a burning bush? Or would it be more helpful to burn Palestinian olive trees?

      • Mooser on December 8, 2019, 3:47 pm

        And to disprove (as if it was necessary!) the ancient bud libel, Dead Sea Mud makes an excellent fertilizer for cannabis plants.

  7. Yitzhak9 on December 7, 2019, 9:29 pm

    @Talkback

    Genetic analysis has shown that Mizrahi, Sephardi, and Ashkenazi Jews share significant amounts of shared ancestry.
    Ashkeanzi Jews have been of the most studied peoples and it’s common knowledge among genealogists that Ashkenazi Jews are indeed descendants of Ancient Israelites who fled to Europe after being exiled. There is some input from Europeans but overall we are mostly Levantine in DNA as previously stated. This is because Jews rarely intermarried and were segregated from the European population. For instance, there were Shtetls in the Russian Empire where Jews had to live and we spoke our own language which had elements of Hebrew/Aramaic.

    “Many of them actually don’t. And we were talking about Ashkenazi Jews”
    Yes, many don’t because we have varying degrees of European ancestry. However, if we were simply “European converts”, we wouldn’t look different. I posted pictures of Ashkenazi Jews who look typical of populations in the Middle East.
    “Obviously you don’t know anything about the Jewish history of proselytism. How do you explain chinese Jews”
    Obviously you don’t. Judaism was not a proselytizing religion in the way that Christianity and Islam are. There are indeed converts such as in China but I believe you are referring to Kaifeng Jews. A small group of Persian Jews who were escaping the crusades on the Silk Road settled in the city in the 12th century and set up a synagogue. After this, they mixed in with the local Chinese population but there is only a couple thousand left. Now there are obviously converts today from all over the world but most don’t even live in Israel.

    “ROFL. Actually a Palestinian is genetially closer to ancient Hebrews than most of the Jews”
    Yes, some Palestinians would be as Jews and Palestinians are genetically similar because we’re both from the Levant (at least a large chunk of Palestinians are).

    “They look like people from Turkmenistan. How about the people on this picture:”
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/scientists-reveal-jewish-historys-forgotten-turkish-roots-a6992076.html
    That’s literally one study from 2016 that has little scientific basis. Practically every other study debunks this. Unless you believe the “Khazar Theory” which is literally pushed by White Supremacists, then you can believe this.

    “I didn’t know that you support the right of return for Palestinians and reject the idea of Israel as a Jewish state”
    I worded it wrong because English is not my first language but if Palestinians wanted their own state, they were given chance after chance but would rather fund terrorirst organizations, build tunnels, and attempt to kill Jews than have a safe safe next to a Jewish state.
    Realistically Arab Citizens of Israel have equal rights already. They have their own courts, are Members of the Knesset, have equal access to education, and are free to worship however they want. Do Jews have the same rights in Palestine, Iraq, Syria, etc.?
    Israel is a Jewish state because it always has been and always will be. We have Christians and Muslims as well and they are treated better than we were treated in their countries.
    “Where they really “kicked out” or did they choose to leave? And when exactly? Before or after Jews kicked out Palestinians?”
    Both. However, many didn’t have a choice to leave. Yemenite Jews had been moving into the Mandatory Palestine as well as Ashkenazi Jews in droves. There was also a continuing Jewish presence for thousands of years. Clearly you didn’t do your research to know that Jews were expelled throughout the Middle East/North Africa and pogroms had destroyed Jewish communities in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Morocco, Libya, and Iran. Not to mention Jews had been treated horribly prior to that. Under Islamic Law, Jews were “Dhimmis”, they were segregated, not allowed the same rights, and subject to discrimination. It was written in the Torah that Jews would return to the Land of Israel, so Mizrahim who were especially religious had wanted to live in Israel for centuries because they were seen as “dogs” by their Muslim rulers.

    Lastly, in cast you didn’t know, there has never been a country called Palestine. It was Judea and when Romans expelled the Jews, they renamed it “Syria-Paleastina” as a way to punish Jews because Philistines and Syrians had been seen as two major enemies historically of Jewish people. Over time, it became part of the Byzantine Empire and several Muslim empires. For 400 years, the Ottomans had ruled it which is when many of the modern “Palestinians” came to live in the area. They came from the countries of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and even as far as Bosnia and Sudan.
    It was largely empty as described by Mark Twain the 1800s besides the Jewish population and Jews had already been moving into the Mandate in massive numbers in the early 20th century. The flag of Mandatory Palestine literally had the Star of David on it.
    Arabs didn’t even start calling themselves “Palestinian” until the 1960s. Prior to that, they were just simply Arabs and are no different culturally or linguistically than Arabs from Lebanon, Syria, or Jordan. They aren’t a distinct people at all.
    If their government didn’t hate Jews so much, they could live freely with Jews in Israel but as Hamas charter says, they want to wipe out all the Jews so that would happen. Now is Israel perfect? Absolutely not but Israel has at least tried many times for peace, the Palestinian Authority does not want peace.
    You really should do your research before you post.

    • Talkback on December 8, 2019, 1:36 pm

      Y9: “… it’s common knowledge among genealogists that Ashkenazi Jews are indeed descendants of Ancient Israelites who fled to Europe after being exiled.”

      Nope.

      Y9: “I posted pictures of Ashkenazi Jews who look typical of populations in the Middle East.”

      No they don’t. And if they would that doesn’t mean that they are descendants from ancient Hebrews. Based on your approach all people of Middle East are Jews, because they look like typical populations in the Middle East.

      Y9: “Judaism was not a proselytizing religion in the way that Christianity and Islam are. ”

      I never said it was like Christianity and Islam. But Judaism has a history of proselytizing. Missionizing began in Torah Times and continued almost up to the Christian Reformation.

      Y9: “After this, they mixed …”

      Oh, so Jews do mix. What a surprise.

      Y9: “That’s literally one study from 2016 that has little scientific basis. Practically every other study debunks this”

      Says who?

      Genetic Roots of the Ashkenazi Jews
      Most Ashkenazi Jews, traditionally believed to have descended from the ancient tribes of Israel, may in fact be maternally descended from prehistoric Europeans.
      https://www.the-scientist.com/daily-news/genetic-roots-of-the-ashkenazi-jews-38580

      Let me ask you a question. How do scientist determine that they have found DNA that is DNA from 1.) an ancient Hebrew who 2.) lived in the land of ancient Israel and 3.) was not a convert. Please explain.

      Y9: “I worded it wrong because English is not my first language …”

      That’s not a problem. But you made the claim that Jews and Nonjews should have equal rights and now it seems that you weant to take back. Are you a Jewish racist/supremacist who believes that Nonjews should have less rights than Jews and that Jews even have a right to violate the rights of Nonjews? Do Jews – contrary to everybody else, including Nazis – have a right to expell people because of their heritage and faith? Do Jews – contrary to everybody else, including Nazis – have a right to a state that is not the state of all of its citizens?

      “… but if Palestinians wanted their own state, they were given chance after chance …”

      They were given “a chance” by whom? Who has the right to “give” the people of a country the chance to have an independent state in only 20% of their country? Do you think that nobody else has this right, but only Jews?

      “… but would rather fund terrorirst organizations, build tunnels, and attempt to kill Jews than have a safe safe next to a Jewish state.”

      That’s like saying that Jews rather fund terror organisation like Irgun and Lehi and state terrorism after 1948, build illegal settlements, expell Nonjews, demolish their homes, destroy or confiscate their property and attempt kill Nonjews than having a state next to a Palestinan state.

      Btw. why should Palestinians accept the creation of a Jewish Apartheid state within their state which can be only maintain by keeping Nonjews expelled?

      Y9: “Realistically Arab Citizens of Israel have equal rights already.”

      Realistically? Not even on paper. Otherwise they wouldn’t fight for equal rights. And you seem to ignore the Nonjews that Israel prevents from returning. And to claim that all citizens in Israel have equal rights is a trick. Because Israel considers Jews and Nonjews to be citizens, but contrary to any other country makes a difference between citizens and nationals which are any Jews who have special rights as nationals. Only Jews enjoy full citizenship rights. Btw. Nazis made the same differntiation.

      The right to equality It’s not even enshrined in any constitutional document and was explicitly removed from the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty. And EVERY fundamental right in Israel can be violated by this very same Basic Law:
      “8. There shall be no violation of rights under this Basic Law except by a law befitting the values of the State of Israel, enacted for a proper purpose, and to an extent no greater than is required. ”

      And what are these” values”?
      “1. The purpose of this Basic Law is to protect human dignity and liberty, in order to establish in a Basic Law the values of the State of Israel AS A JEWISH AND DEMOCRATIC STATE”
      https://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/basic3_eng.htm

      Y9 “However, many didn’t have a choice to leave. Yemenite Jews had been moving into the Mandatory Palestine as well as Ashkenazi Jews in droves.”

      Your claim was that Jews were being being “kicked out of neighboring Arab countries” and now you are focusing on Yemen?

      Y9: ” Clearly you didn’t do your research to know that Jews were expelled throughout the Middle East/North Africa and pogroms had destroyed Jewish communities in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Morocco, Libya, and Iran.”

      I didn’t do research? Yemenite Jews weren’t kicked out of Yemen in mandate times, but transported to Israel between 1949 and 1950 in operation “Magic Carpet”. Iraqi-born Shlomo Hillel, former speaker of the Knesset claimed: “I do not regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists.”. Iraqi-born Israeli historian Avi Shlaim concludes that, even though Iraqi Jews were “victims of the Israeli-Arab conflict”, Iraqi Jews aren’t refugees, saying “nobody expelled us from Iraq, nobody told us that we were unwanted.

      Y9: ” Under Islamic Law, Jews were “Dhimmis”, …”

      All non-Muslim where “Dhimmis” which means “protected person” and that refered to the state’s obligation under sharia to protect the individual’s life, property, and freedom of religion, in exchange for loyalty to the state and payment of the jizya tax. The Dhimmi status was abandoned for example in the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century before the first Zionist legal settlement.

      Btw. What’s your point? Back in the old days all religious/ethnic minorites were discrimated against. Discrimanation even exists today. The state of Israel even keeps Nonjews expelled and views them as a “demograhic threat”.

      Y9: “Lastly, in cast you didn’t know, there has never been a country called Palestine.”

      I guess that neither you nor your ancestors legally acquired the citizenship of the state of Palestine un mandate times. Otherwise you wouldn’t claim such nonsense. Is that the reason you emphasize “genetic ties to the land”? Because you don’t have any other ties that would be actually legally relevant?

      Y9: “The flag of Mandatory Palestine literally had the Star of David on it.”

      You must be terribly confused. It “literally” had the British flag on it.
      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Palestine-Mandate-Ensign-1927-1948.svg/2000px-Palestine-Mandate-Ensign-1927-1948.svg.png

      Y9 “It was largely empty as described by Mark Twain the 1800s ..”

      I can understand that you have to rely on sources which are created by jokers.
      How a Mark Twain Travel Book Turned Palestine into a Desert
      https://hyperallergic.com/400528/how-a-mark-twain-travel-book-turned-palestine-into-a-desert/

      Y9: “… besides the Jewish population …”

      And who said that? Sholem Aleichem? In 1800 there were 275,000 people living in Palestine with only 7,000 Jews.
      Twain travelled to Palestine in the late 1860s. IN 1860 the population of Palestine was allready 411,000. That’s far more people than the number Jews who had acquired Palestinian citizenship until 1948. In 1890 there were 532, 000 people living in Palestine. Less than 10% of them were Jews. And you seriosly claim that this land was “largely empty besides the Jewish population”? I can understand know your emphasis on “genetic ties”. You are just fabricating one idiocy after another to make an exclusively Jewish claim to Palestine.

      Y9: “Arabs didn’t even start calling themselves “Palestinian” until the 1960s.”

      ROFL. In the 1960 the Palestinians only modified the definition of a Palestinian. They basically excluded Jews who immigrated to Palestine during mandate times and without the consent of its people. The Palestinians are a constitutive people contrary to the Jews who are not a nationality and will never be. That’s also the reason why a Jewish state (instead of an Israeli state) will always be a racist state. And the fact that it has to keep Nonjews expelled to maintain this racist regime makes it an Apartheid state according to the definition in international law.

    • echinococcus on December 8, 2019, 11:16 pm

      “Genetic analysis has shown…”

      Now it’s Dr. No. 9

      I don’t doubt that Dr No. 9 is as much a specialist as Dr. Mayhem or Nathan or whatshisface — we can”t know now that archives beyond a week or so are inaccessible. After all, Zionist “scientists” with bone fide diplomas abound just as NSADP experts in the times of “Dr. ” Rosenberg, the one, you guessed it, who used to “prove” just as “scientifically” that Jews are a race apart, and an inferior one at that. Not that one would even suspect Mr Dr. No. 9 to even have graduated a high school…

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