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Total number of comments: 3 (since 2017-01-02 22:33:26)

Bar Kochbar

English guy who likes to read

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  • Terrorism: How the Israeli state was won
    • Thank you for all your lovely comments - clearly we agree to differ. So much to pick apart... apologies if I fail to address all your points.

      I am sorry that my responses are long ones but I am the only non Jew-hater here so have much to say...

      Firstly, thank you for the compliment of being labelled a Zionist, I regard myself as but a mere Humanist. A true Zionist would know that this site is a lost cause and not waste his or her time trying to be helpful.

      As regards Zion, In the same way as a Moslem prays to Mecca, a Jew prays to Jerusalem and asks to return - Jerusalem is Zion.

      Bar Kochbar was a Jewish Leader in 132CE - he revolted against the Romans trying to liberate Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple.... Not sure which Bar Kochbar your history book refers to, certainly not an expansionist.

      The wars fought always outside Israel... hmmm. Is this referring to the olympiads slaughtered in Munic or the defence of Yad Modechai ner Ashdod? call me old fashioned when the Arabs invaded in 1948 the Israelis counter attacked.... as regards 1956, Israel took Sinai and gave it back, they gave back Gaza - so they do give back land.

      I love the idea of Jews not coming from Israel, its so romantic and convenient, except their genes (check out Cohen) prove continuity. Interestingly 4 of the 5 mothers of Islam were Jews so that should also be interesting to live with for any Jew haters. Jews and Arabs are Semites...

      As regards the secular state of Palestine, I think the Hamas handling of the Jewish synagogues, the annual attempts to destroy Joseph's tomb and the stoning of worshippers at the wailing wall are indications of the tolerance that this myth would entail. Alas this idea is truly dead.

      I was also bemused by not understanding genoicide - I believe it is about exterminating an entire race or possibly nation like the Mufti's mate Hitler did to 6,000,000 Jews or in Rwanda... I would not call it "participating as members of Knesset, own universities, own hospitals, own police force but losing an figure of 1,500 terrorists in the process"...

      I did like the idea that Jordanians owning Samaria and Judea as still seen as acceptable. Once peace is agreed the Jordanians would make excellent rulers. The trouble is they would have to handle the Palestinians like in 1970.

      My point that no government existed before the Jordanians and Egypt pulled out from Judaea, Samaria and Gaza has been accepted thanks - my point is there was no Palestinian nation just clans... so all the comments about a unified Palestinian view, response or direction before 1967 is unfounded.

      As regards the right of return... again good idea - The Jews came from there so this is very relevant while the Arabs originate from Saudi, Iraq and the Bayswater road (someone quoted 7th century above so clearly interlopers) so let them return thence. I would consider the Canaanites being allowed back though. Perhaps the other Arab states could spend their oil money on addressing the problem instead of letting it fester for 70 years.

      Finally, instead of hating a nation of 7,000,000 to no avail, why not use this site to be constructive.

      One solution is that all the Arabs are killed or all the Jews - neither popular. Or they all love each other and say sorry and whoosh it's a miracle - you need a lot of hallucigenic drugs to pull that one off. You could leave it where it is and hope that Arabs not helping fellow Arabs will lead to a battle of all battles with some suicidal march at the ramparts (something out of world war Z) - pretty painful and inhumane and probably pointless...

      So this is my constructive solution not as an apologist anything... feel free to tweak. The Israeli Arabs can stay and be educated, serve in the army (like the Bedouin and Druze) just like the previous 70 years and any gripes can be addressed. Gays can also remain as can atheists. Swop the refugee card for the settler card, both sides won't accept them in their respective half of the balance - The refugees can take up the land that 1m+Arab Jews left behind in 1948 that was usurped by the locals. OK, I understand that you cannot simply recognise Israel as this is a capitulation whilst the settlers see their role as g-d given duty to prevent Israel being destroyed by people who have no respect or recognition for Jews or Israel... so since the Arabs have most to gain, why not break the impasse and bravely recognise with a "subject to" clause (perhaps no settlements, no open borders, all the aquifers...) it's called the moral high ground. Then true Arab lovers can pour in cash to make this Arab partition acceptable. I realise this is what Oslo proposed but with Yasser safely dead and rotting in hell, the new generation of Arabs can claim to have made the suggestions. Once both sides aren't winding each other up and both sides have decent lives in or out of the region then they can all read books about the unfairness of history instead of killing etc and wounds can slowly heal.

      So please do respond with a solution that could work... below instead of ranting....

    • Thanks for publishing my counter comments - open discussion is like being in Israel!

      The above original article is highly selective and biased. As was my balancing comments but all food for thought. The response to my response was equally subjective but welcome.

      In a nutshell

      Jordan was part of Palestine and it being taken away to form Jordan is some how acceptable but when Jews get their land back it is not.

      Judaea and Samaria or the West Bank of Jordan has never had local rule - between 1948 and 1967 it was owned by Jordan (as is the Dome of the Rock to this day) - never complained about by the Anti-Jew press.

      The Heart of the article is about Europeans somehow appeasing the holocaust yet continued Jewish presence, Tel Aviv, the Peel Report had nothing to do with the holocaust. The Dhimmi turned desert into meadows.... live with it.

      The only reference to government in the region in the above response was Christian Jerusalem - Arab nationalism and statehood did not exist before the routing of Turkey and British encouragement...

      In perspective, the rumoured numbers of deaths by these Zionists is less than Lawnmowers kill in the USA in a year. The rumoured deaths include the removal of nutters smashing children's brains out, attackers of schools, attacks on buses and malls at the scene - if Israel really wanted the Gaza and the ex-Jordan West Bank lands then they would have the death penalty for every act and be bussing people across the border... pretty poor show isn't by the people who have the brains and technology behind PCs, IPhones, Modern Medicine and Big Data... perhaps the answer is they just want the State granted and agreed post armistice.

      Tel-Aviv to the Judea and Samaria or ex-Jordanian West Bank is 15 miles. If the Arabs offered recognition and peace then Israel would be on the back foot - instead they insist on destruction so nothing happens except more rhetoric, bias and discomfort.

      As regards 1937 division refusal - 80 years - in your comfy armchair and typing on a web site is easy to State "quite-right" don't settle for it... After all it is better to stand by principles than resolve anything ever...

    • Forgive my challenging the grain (I guess this will get deleted). Jews have always lived in the region. Jerusalem has only ever been the capital of a state 3 times, all 3 times Jewish. Tel Avi was established in 1880 long before the Holocaust. 1905 famine saw 25% of both Jews and Arabs perish from hunger as there was no government there. 1919 saw 90% of the land becoming Jordan. 1937 saw the Peel plan recommendation for division, rejected by the Arabs. Talking of Nazis, why did the grand Mufti of Jerusalem live in Berlin during the war? Irgun and hagannah actually fought over refugee and weapon issues. In 1967 the Israelis did a crap job at demolishing the dome of the rock given your conviction of their anti-Islam nonsense. The photos of Israelis using skunk may be unpleasant but no one has died of it, do you prefer the Hamas castration, lynching and driving corpses along the dirt track option?I have visited Israel and stayed in some pretty nice hotels where the inhabitants are very religious Jews and Moslems (they both come from Abraham) and they get on absolutely fine. Given the rumoured Nukes, planes, tanks and so forth Israel has to be in the Guinness Book of records for the worst attempt of Genocide since Fluffy the rabbit. Finally, Israel is the size of El Salvador, has a population in excess of Sweden and Wales combined complete with motorways, universities, hospitals, cities - It is not a few "zionists" wearing 1950s uniforms that we can ship out to Argentina or Saudi but a thriving and tolerant (religious, LGBT etc) entire nation so ranting and dismissing it with the pseudo-selective history above will not solve the issue, mutual recognition and respect is the only way. The settlements in Gaza went under Ariel Sharon (a hawk compared to Bibbi), the Judea and Samaria ones can also be exchanged for peace - the good news is that Jew-Haters now talk about constraining settlements now not the sea flowing with Jewish blood - so progress at last.

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