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Total number of comments: 2285 (since 2012-07-22 05:28:55)

i try and see all invlolved POV. Have no tolerance for people/groups that say one thing in one language or tsxt and then say the complete opposite in another language or text. I expect ALL parties to say what they mean and mean what they say.

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  • Hasbara is dead
    • @t

      Says the tiny insect to the large spider. AI and MW. Considerable but in the large scheme of things...... Really?

    • @js
      . It's hard to believe that Palestinian Arabs could ever be that dumb that they don't understand Hamas (and PA/PLO) is using them as pawns. The problem is they have very little choice in what they could do about it. Mass uprising? While Israel would support it most Arabs would be loath to have Israel as an ally even if it was to gain political freedom. There is no military force in the world that will come to rescue them and fight Israel. Maybe the'new old' plan to build a port in Cyprus will help but only so much.
      . In the mean time, I would say Palestinian Arabs in west bank and Gaza are some of the most cynical people in the world and not because of Israel

    • @n

      For every far left so-called progressive american that supposedly no longer believes that Israeli hasbara is simply an explanation of their pov, there are millions of more foreign citizens that never had much stake in the I/P conflict that now view Israel more favourably then in the past. chalk it up to Israel's advancing economic strategy into far flung corners of the earth or to internet news sites bringing to assorted people's a more nuanced view of the conflict then the totally anti-israel view pushed since Israel's inception in many parts of the world.
      So, while its easy to say "hasbara is dead" it's far more difficult to claim that super economic engines like India, China, Southeast Asia, Japan, Sunni Arab nations, African Christian nations(sans South Africa which is headed towards the dump anyway) plus Israel's usual allies are investing more and more in Israel technology, start ups, medicine and more. the nasty sayers can highlight any number of articles they like, wether they strengthen bds, or promote anti Israel rhetoric they cannot stop the tide of history. Certainly Israel will devote whatever amount is considered healthy and appropriate to fight bds just like we fight any other campaign directed at our demise. For those that crow about how'scared' Israel is about bds they are not lust to understand wether we fight bds on principle or wether it is just one of dozens of collective threats thrown at us from three far left. Other then copy for MW and dive other hasty in the left leaning msm it hasn't made a dent in anything but some far left Israelis pride. Phobias here hate bds unless they are on Hamas or PLO payroll. There is that. And other then inconvenience, no business has been destroyed. In fact, I've could say Israel is riding a crest of popularity in American culture. On Netflix alone these are there huge hit sensations both in original Hebrew and in American adaptations. Before that there were several other network shows aspired to English speaking audiences from Israel. Now, Ron Howard (be sure to boycott his work) is adapting yet one more Israeli show about medic units into US adaptation.
      . Just think of the PA and Hamas (loud snicker) would free some of their payoff money to fund a flourishing of the arts in west bank? I would think there are many talented Palestinian Arabs who could make serious drama, thrillers, to comic portrayals of life under Israeli overrule. But, that's never going to happen because Palestinian leadership could give two shits about what it's people want or need.

      . In fact, one of the biggest misconceptions of both Palestinian supporters and pro-israel supporters abroad is that occupied palestinians are somehow hampered from modernity. The Tamimis like to project the rural village hero as their brand but they are totally hooked up. The majority of Arabs in ramallah , Bethlehem and the dozens of connecting cities and towns are all internet savvy and hooked into the world. When their leadership stops stealing most of their money they may accomplish more great things. And Hamas? When it's destroyed the gazan arabs may finally feel what freedom is. In the meantime, pw loo likes to dream that "hasbara is dead" (as if there is any difference between Israeli and pro Palestinian hasbara. PW is in one camp and it's pretty much fringe, but it has grown in significance. I just don't agree that Israeli PR has lost any overall success other then at times when Hamas stage protests specifically designed to draw the wrath of the left leaning msm. But it always calms down and goes back to status quo. As long as status quo is the optimum situation for all parties then Netanyahu will reign supreme. He is obviously one of the most brilliant minds of his generation (hate him or like him). He outflanked junior varsity Obama on almost all accounts until Barry lost his cool and called him chicken shit.(believe me, it got huge laughs and many snickers inside the cabinet. Bibi is not so weak as to buckle at chicken shit. Bibi is just a product of one of those fuckin families that all seem to overachieve. Naturally he's a huge target for contempt,) anyway, the best way to get rid of bibi is for palestinians to start negotiating terms of and'end of conflicting something bds never mentions) Bibi is only geared up for status quo. Giving up land will fall to somebody else

  • The Gaza blockade is illegal-- and so is the use of force to maintain it
    • @tb

      The one that says; "quiet will be met with quiet"?

    • @ej

      Jewish state is simply a descriptor of the nation of Israel. Maybe you also have a problem with the Islamic Republic of Iran but probably not?


      I always wondered how much fantasy play is involved with maintaining the obsession with hating israel. a lot apparently.

  • 'A Jew who tried to abuse this fact' -- Israel deports activist for supporting BDS
    • @...

      Whee is evidence perp was "retarded" as you said? He thought Cleveland wasn't enough families and wanted to plan the attack in Philadelphia later in the summer. So slow of wit.

    • @d

      Lol. The old,'there are levels of bds' which just means whatever doesn't inconvenience one ......boycott. Everything else is fair game. Hah. Hah!

  • "A Watershed Moment in Palestinian History": Interview with Jamal Juma’
    • @bc
      Because I can. The site can ban me anytime it wants. In the mean time what? You want your own sandbox to play in?

      (And pipe down moosr. everything will turn out fine. Relax)

    • @m

      Yes, I've heard the 'irritating grain of sand in the oyster of the arab crescent' complaint many times before. but is turning out to be a magnificent pearl and the oyster will have to deal with it

    • @...

      Yup. It's all one big conspiratorial lie. from the day Arafat threatened the world with his olive branch-machine gun speech and only dropped the branch, it's all been a big lie.

    • @j

      Israel has offered the West Bank Gaza and parts of East Jerusalem on many occasions in the past which were rejected for whatever reason by the palestinian leadership. you don't get to cry now how evil Israel is for holding the land until a security agreement can be negotiated when the land has been offered and rejected so many times. but then, I'm sure y'all will find a way.

    • @an

      I'll clarify. Thrive is too strong a word. In the West Bank the Arabs are certainly not privy to the services and infrastructure that Israeli citizens, Arab and jew receive in Israel or what you call settlement blocks. You do know that 100s of housing units in dozens of settlements are lived in by Palestinian families? However, the West Bank, despite rampant Palestinian corruption,(aided by corrupt israeli officials) has grown exponentially in the past decade of, let's not call it peace, relative calm. The growth has been so substantial that most palestinians except for the most fanatical extremists are not willing to have what they've built destroyed by war.
      . Obviously not the same in Gaza. And I don't think three is any need to go into specifics about all the how's and why's the West Bank could or should be actually thriving and enjoying more economic and social growth. It's enough to say that blame is spread wide.
      . But again, Hamas presents a different situation. Better then what might replace it yet still oppressing its people with a violent iron grip on power, meaning media, military ops and the planning and sanctioning of most if not all attacks on Israel.

      Israel has never expressed a political, social or cultural inclination to destroy our rid itself of its Palestinian citizens or the Palestinian culture that exists outside of Israel.
      . But up north, in Syria, the Assad clan is defining a precise definition of genocide by indiscriminately bombing, gassing, torturing, shooting and removing and and all members of clans, tribes or sects that aren't loyal to the Assad regime.

    • @an

      there is no genocide. the palestinians continue to thrive in not only most of judea and samaria but in far flung nations around the globe. the gazans are trapped between a rock and hard place. They support Hamas in general (or at least in public) but it is the Hamas that is acting as a genocidal tyrannical "noose....drawn tighter and chocking the life out of..." Gaza.
      And even if you do actually believe there is a 'genocide' (by what definition i am certain you have ready by your keyboard) there is always the option of negotiating a peace. in the case of the first nations in north america who were definitely the victims of the first modern genocide it wasn't as if they were given a choice to negotiate and survive. they did negotiate many treaties that were broken and they barely survived after that. the jews in ww2 were no given any choice as to wether they could avoid boxcars to killing factories. yet -a cliche it may be but it still stands-if the Hamas were to lay down their arms and their covenent sworn to destroy the 'zionist entity' there would be peace the next day. (i don't have to repeat the 2nd part of the cliche either.)
      there is in actuality-a stand off between a tenacious people that believe their cause will prevail against another tenacious people who have built a nation on their ancient homeland that includes the full civil rights of muslims, christians and other religions , races and sexual orientation. all the claims of colour 'washing' can't erase the fact that this is how things are in an imperfect but thriving israel today.

    • Palestinians continue to reach watershed moments in the past as well. The main problem with this is that israel keeps chugging along. It deals with a growing BDS issue while conducting complex FP with Euro, Russia and other powers not traditionally aligned with IDF. Security in the north, collaboration in the east and constant upgrades to machines being tweaked to destroy the Hamas ploy of flaming rubbers, balloons etc.

  • The defiance that launched Gaza’s flaming kites cannot be extinguished
    • The problem with the tired 'david and goliath' comparison is that israel is only stymied by the kites because we are obviously holding back the force that could theoretically be used to quash the kite launchers.(and worse which would not accomplish anything positive) wether you want to believe it's a cynical strategy, PR, or the immorality/morality of using/not using the overwhelming force that could be used to stop cross border incursions and attacks.

      while the left wing msm made a lot of hay with dramatically framed photos of the border fence war the reason europe, middle eastern and Asian powers were fairly quiet is because all of them want to reserve the right to defend their borders if attacked. and yes, as cute as they are, kites count as attacks. If israel burned down gazan farm land the security council would already have churned out another dozen condemnations against the.'zionist entityand

      And while I read here all the time how evil Israel is I don't hear any israelis, from soldiers to shop keepers saying they approve of killing as many civilians as possible. there are some crazy religious fanatics that believe g-d is on their side but the majority of people here think they are disgusting and nuts. and, unfortunately, there are just as many crazies on the arab side cheering jewish deaths to keep the jews who 'kiss the mass murderers grave' from feeling any shame.

  • One Democratic State: an ongoing debate
  • 'Ali is on the grill!' Israeli settlers celebrate burning of Palestinian baby
    • @annie

      I should have qualified 'universally' as in "Universally among those with an intellect above the true believing mediocre mindset. Wether they are jewish, israeli or others, it doesn't matter. Z unless we're now defining someone as a nazi can be used from police brutality in the US to military uniforms of multiple nations to certain presidents of world powers. everybody's a nazi nowadays.

    • @mssr.

      Declared. Yes. That was my point. Not that Israel isn't officially declared. You jumped the shark. There are far more dangerous nations that have implied there would be MAD then Israel. Premature ejaculation of laughter

    • @mh

      I always wondered the same thing here... That one or two Israel haters may be neurotic zionists in disguise. Its unlikely though

      [email protected]

      As far as I know I've never been'kicked' off any commentary site. Zionist, conservative, jezebel, meth cooks anonymous.... They all let me write. I just read how many young men captured after fighting for Isis are in need of serious treatment for meth addiction. So religious of the caliphate.

    • @ec

      Read the comment I responded to. It links nazi wth Jewish.


      Still wth the pee wee herman stuff. there are many nations passing laws at this tie equating certain forms of anti Israeli, anti Zionism with anti-jewishness. I do not think the sage can be said for the third Reich-israel comparison which is almost universally shunned and ridiculed. But I get the point your trying to make

    • @an

      Without knowing any more then basics I would think that

      A: if it's the result of unreasonable gerrymandering then it should be fixed.

      B: they might have the highest per capita amount off food stamps received but I doubt it's the biggest percentage in the state among all census groups

      C: I think that while insular community where the two brothers are fighting from Brooklyn's and upstate NY over the fathers legacy is not only weird, it's extreme and would most surely feel oppressive top myself personally, but I am not those weird jews. They aren't chabad. They aren't even that similar to the fanatics in some of the settlements.

      D: but-your not going to get me to believe that in America, the biggest percentage of people on food stamps and welfare has always been white folks. Poor white folks.

    • @mssr

      What exactly is a real zionist as opposed to a fake zionist?

    • @lhntr

      it is hard to see how other then the instantaneous gratification you seem to get combining the two things: natsi and jewish I always wondered why fools like you don't understand how it cheapens your cause. helps make it meaningless and comical. just as calling somebody a'racist' any more is an empty term. you call Israelis racist, Israel's call Arabs jew-haters. Europeans are and have been racist for millennia. Trump is a racist, BLM JVP and MW have all been called racist. With just about everybody being called a racist how bad can it be. now, being called a Nazi is becoming as loose an insult as racist. nobody can be insulted any longer except the thinnest of skins.

    • @a

      there are going to be a lot more then just "these jewish kids" asking adults around them,'why didn't we learn this?'. it will be on a lot more topics then just israel and Palestinians for american kids. catastrophe is on the horizon in ways that directly effect privileged american kids, black, white, biracial middle class and poor. if the UN is to survive its current malaise it will need to completely restructure, cut horrendous bloat and waste and that not only may be good for suffering Africans Asians and others besides palestinians but it might bff good for a peace to be negotiated between conflicting parties in the I/p

    • @n

      please let us know a declared nuclear armed nation that hasn't vowed to use what you call the Samson option. Seymour Hirsh made it sound like a huge departure for israel when MAD had been around in principle long before the existence of dimona

    • @n


    • @m

      So we've been hearing forever. all your saying is the equivalent of sticking your fist up high and shaking it at the thing you hate. a lot of good that will do. we have plenty of them here as well. you either win wait or make peace. choose . you act like zionists are so unique

  • IDF snipers: choosing who to shoot
    • @mssr

      Yup. Batteries ran out. I got a few of Rosannes Ambien after she quit. fell asleep mid-stream. Ambien mondoweissing!

      Still, I understood what I wrote perfectly well. I even saw an article using "kite wars". Hamas has finally found a tactic that that poses an irritating problem. Israel can't use snipers at those distances and if they use to many targeted hits on kite squads the Hamas missile barrage will escalate. But Hamas has a bigger problem with the PA and needing money. and I will bet Netanyahu is going to keep the focus on the north as long as some trigger- like the murder of three Israeli teens in 14 set the nation on a more warlike footing. I don't think any of the involved powers want any higher escalation at this point and want to see what can be squeezed. And

    • Shenfld is exaggerating the real world results of training. The snipers are under stricter rules now then in any past Gaza conflict. And this time it's the political brass holding them back to see whet certain understandings might go with Hamas. J Hamas seems extra concerned the the snipers don't target the planners or masterminds behind the kind flaming tactic. The flame flyers are well back into Gaza Far from fence so Israel would have to target deep and it may not be ready to start that yet. Hamas seems willing in that they've shot of more then any missiles they have recently. We're heading for the' War of the Kites'.
      . Btw: even after the drop in soothern. Jewish populations from towns bordering Gaza f who fled apparently the small towns and kibbutzim are getting double and triple what tutu h u uhh ii

  • Imagine the KKK doing a biopic of MLK and you get... 'Fauda'
    • @d

      Yeah. I didn't get that part either. Not only was at least half the show in Arabic the Palestinian characters in the West Bank spoke in the distinct way Arabs from Palestine speak, including some slang. Also, one Israeli agent was tripped up because he slipped and did use a slang term for women no religious Muslim, especially Hamas member would use.

      . face it... The show is a huge hit, in Israel, US and now europe. It's definitely not am anti Israel series but neither does it paint a picture of israeli army and services as any more 'moral' then anybody else. And people forget.... It's a TV SHOW! Events are dramatized, exaggerated and edited for maximum effect. everybody in the show is a stereotype of some perceived character. And the Palestinian characters, wether Hamas or not were portrayed with as much sympathy as were the Israelis. In fact, one Arab character was portrayed as the most sympathetic, most trapped, most torn and most fucked over by Israel and Hamas then anybody else in the show.

    • @mrn

      Sorry, not trying to pick on you but saying that "only Palestinians...... Should make Palestinian base shows" is borderline fascist. Imagine how pissed you'd be if only Jews could produce shows about Jews. Or only Germans can produce shows about the third Reich. Only Syrians(which eventually will mean only the Assad clan) can make shows of the past decade of war there.

      What SHOULD definitely be done is for the PA or the Hamas (fat chance) or one of the 100s of European hand wringing ngo's that give millions to palestinians allocate enough money for a good quality, entertaining non governmental approved film about Palestinian life. Comedy, action, thriller, whatever.

      In the past it was an American jew, Schnabel who made MIRIAL (but who knows, maybe it was the Harvey Weinstein affect. The actor as director were an item for a while)
      There was PARIDISE NOW ...About two suicide bombers portrayed sympathetically
      There was 5 BROKEN CAMERAS...gushed over by critics
      There is AJAMI. (some mild portrayal of normalization even though it's Palestinian centered)
      Then there are the Israeli 'anti war' movies which many her probably know of already:
      Waltz with BASHIR
      A film called ZAYTOUN...It's a thriller. Great entertainment but it depicts a palestinian refugee who forms alliance with downed IDF pilot both trying to make it back to Israel. NOT Zionist propaganda but shows a human bond. Unless you believe everything is Zionist propaganda)

      If you like film and don't know these, enjoy. If you don't watch, ok. And if you are skeptical because a pro Israeli listed them?... Assure you, there are dozens of pro Zionist films, some 27th agendas, some just b-grade entertainment. Others junk, some great even with a skewed narrative. But the above films are not pro-israel Zionist in any traditional sense

    • @mrn

      Do zionist haters on MW now write in some type of crypto code? I have no clue what your trying to say.

      Why would zionists "slander" MLK, either in the 1960s or now.

      And while 50 years ago the term "negro" may not have been offensive to blacks it surely isn't the preferred term in the 21st century. And while I can excuse that, (maybe your an 80yr old coot?)
      there is definitely no excuse for your ignorance about zionist, Israel and black folks. we live with and amongst thousands of black people. There is some racism here as it exists in most nations with multi cultural populations. despite this there area dark skinned, mocha skinned, light skinned and biracial Israeli Africans in all walks of israeli life. but how would you know this excerpt from the hate-sites you frequent.

    • You don't expect filmmakers to show a boring two hours of Palestinians waiting in heat to cross into Israel and the often very friendly but sometimes obnoxious israeli guards. That would be SOOO entertaining we, Arabs and Jews would both drop dead from boredom. I really think you underestimate the average Palestinian ability to cut thru the B.S. And appreciate what's good about it. And again, make their own film is they are so incensed. I suspect it's more MW lefties that are getting nauseas.

    • Get ready, the actor playing the disturbed Israeli special op is about to star in the new film about capturing eichmann. He's bald short, stocky but will probably become the new Israel sex symbol.

      And, the Arab makdesh, who killed many to avenge his Hamas father's death is a HUGE heartthrob in Israel. Movies! TV! What are you going to do....

    • @mar

      Considering MLK was a devout Zionist(which no amount of revisionist history can alter) yes, it's totally absurd. I have no idea who Richard is but assume he is as ridiculous as you are.

      Btw: it's a tv show. There is no mandate that it satisfy the ultra far left so-called progressive ideology. Go watch Amy Goodman or RT tv.. There are also a series of pretty good Turkish movies... Something about the Wolve squad they take down evil Zionist operatives. Sorry I forgot names but I'm sure you'll enjoy. It's the opposite of Fauda with no balance whatsoever. But I watched one. Not too bad. A little low budget.

    • You may be more biased then you might believe(which isn't a problem, just an opinion)

      1) the show is one of the most popular of all time and was quickly picked up by American Netflix . I read nothing about about Israelis protesting.

      2) the show did depict the checkpoints and crossings. There was a scene where an old woman is harassed by soldiers. There are many other scenes showing Israelis harassing palestinians. An action/thriller can not b be expected to spend hours of filming at checkpoints but it was conveyed that it was not pleasant for the Arabs.

      3) Doron, the main character was definitely portrayed as, if not a psycho, at least a disturbed retired member of a team that is trained to do the unspeakable in order to get their target. In reality, he would never have been brought back in except as an advisor, maybe

      4) only a few Palestinian characters were portrayed as willing to do the same level of violent attacks as the Israelis and their extreme difficulty because of Israeli security intrusion was shown for what it was. The connected Hamas members could bypass security wth relative ease while everybody else is inconvenienced or hassled

      5) in the second season only the character seeking revenge for the killing of his father is portrayed as equal to doron in the morality of their motivations. Classic 'duel in the sun' theme.

      6) Israeli extrajudicial killing was absolutely portrayed. Hardly a propaganda point.
      7) palestinians were portrayed as varied as an Israeli action /thriller could be expected. When Israeli agents in Palestinian towns opened fire the collateral damage was shown in how many innocents were wounded or killed. Another strike against propaganda.
      8) the other palestinians, portrayed mostly as members of Hamas, West Bank are not one dimensional and have lovely and complicated relations with their families. The restrictions placed upon Arab women by Islamist family is also portrayed fairly.

      9) while the show was definitely not a promotional tutorial for Palestinian suffering it was not, as described, a biopic. I could spend hours pointing out some absolutely ridiculous and absurd things that would NEVER happen if a real undercover unit were working.

      10) it was made for entertainment and entertaining it is. As the writers and producers stated, "if the Arabs want to make their own show from their point of view then they should do it." And if one watched the show, both seasons, they would come away with the very distinct feeling that in this conflict everybody loses, everybody dies, violence only breeds violence, etc. There is no need for the show runners to make a show that portrays a point of view that they themselves don't know enough about. But the Arabic? The Arabic was excellent. Almost half the show was spoken in Arabic. It's spoken all over Israel so there really isn't a problem except to the author.

      11) the "kkk- mlk " analogy is absurd. A more accurate one would be if the PLO made a biopic of Ariel Sharon, Yitzhak Rabin or David Ben Gurion. But the author is correct in that anybody who hates the Israeli Nation with a passion would probably find this show difficult to stomach.(however- there are quite a few Jews killed to satisfy action fans.

      12) lastly, I would have to admit that were a show picked up by Netflix and filmed from the opposite pov, as in from a pro Hamas , anti Zionist premise that zionists and other american jews and Christians would be screaming bloody murder at the "bias" being shown. That hypocrisy deserves to be exposed if it comes to pass

  • Knesset foils efforts to end Israeli apartheid
    • @ec

      nonetheless, that is exactly what I was accused of here on MW by somebody who either is or was at the time a regular commenter. However, as you seem to understand, an accusation like that would hardly make an impact on my opinions. But yes, I am devoted to a Zionist Jewish nation that is multi ethnic, religious, racial and extends equal civil rights to all citizens living as Israelis. I understand you view the state, the Jewish nation and the creation of modern israel with a much different perspective. I believe the canard that Zionism= racism is ironically one of the most racist views in the world albeit covered by condescending, convoluted and misleading propaganda

      *i have no idea how to search your archives but feel free if you doubt.

    • @ap

      Finding your place without too much trouble. But you have no idea how hard the skulls are here. No matter what you say, even the most critical things about Israeli political climate in regards to the surrounding region you will be branded a 'paid by the Israeli government, professional hasbarist ' . That's the go to insult/brush off here. One time I was accused of not only being a paid operative but a commenter 'analyzed' my own comments and deduced that I was in actuality three separate persons with three distinct writing styles,! Now that definitely cracked me up. He might have even implied that if I wasn't 3 different folks that I might just be a genuine multi personality schizophrenic. Welcome to mw101

  • Mother of slain medic goes to border fence, vows her daughter's mission will not end
    • Look at her video posts. She may have been a medic but was just as willing to act for the Hamas cause. Hamas leadership was pissing its pants with joy at this unfortunate gong woman's death. Plus, medics should wear a large Red cross, star or crescent. She wasn't. I'd the soldier can be found and shown to shoot with intent-he should be pulled and investigated. Just like the Hamas investigates any Arab who managed to kill or kidnap a jew. But first, the candy and bullets🍫

    • I thought her daughter had no mission but to help save lives as a medic.

  • Literary hero Yossi Klein Halevi says anti-Zionist Jews aren't Jewish
    • @elj

      Google: Charlton Hestons most memorable line. (Hint: it's not from Moses) ;)

    • @ej

      Glad you had a laugh. When the majority of the world comes around to laughing with you and not at you give me a ring. In the mean time, enjoy all the great publicity Canada has been garnering in the press. I mean really, who the hell can have any big problems with Canada anyway?

    • @ec

      So we are still waiting for even one single piece of evidence that there is any “Jewish distinct identity” other than strictly religious.

      Still waiting.

      Exhibit#1: the existence of mondoweiss and the obsession of its commentary section.

    • @mssr

      I'm a first responder.

    • @elj

      So, whose stolen land are you living on? What places where you travel used to be cultural icons?
      Are you advocating for your government to return conquered, colonized and confiscated land?

      If you happen to be first nation I hope your familiar with @ryanbellicose , a native indigenous Canadian meta Indian who has a pretty different take on who exactly is indigenous in Israel. ( and he's been writing on the Meta and Israel for years before he had anything but a local following. He may now work for a jewish org. But the tenor of his own dedication has not wavered since he was a teen. He has a pov however. You might respect him

      You sound a little like Rachel Dolan, the Seattle based NAACP director who made a conscious decision that though she was born a white Midwest girl she would now strictly identify as an African American because, you know, race is just a construct. I personally could care less if she chose to pass as a pygmy but I don't think black or Hispanic, and neither are first nations peoples ready to accept rac, culture or ethnicity as a construct. But hey, white boy, they would love you in Gaza or Ramallah

    • @mssr

      there were ghettos and then there are ghettos. Israel is not Warsaw or Lodz. My relatives aren't being slaughtered and gassed by an organized industrial killing machine(Assad?). Arabs may try to and succeed killing us but it is nothing like the ghetto

    • @e. @msr

      I am sure, especially with college students trained to engage hostile Zionist haters three are certain talking points and rules for engagement.

      On the other hand, I just came across MW a few years back and became captivated by the assortment of regular commenters who tame the gamut from outright blatent (but just barely covert) jew haters, Zionist/israel haters who refuse to believe that singling out Israel from the 200+ nations from armchairs in mostly comfortable nations has anything to do with jew hating even though their defense is as flimsy as gossamer and I guess, they are a ashamed to admit the hate the vast majority of world Jews who most definitely identify as zionist. Then there are the debaters, pseudo-academics who make valid points with no balancing pov. And yes, some Israeli hasbara dis the same.

      However, I write here when I do because I find human nature to be both predictable and preposterous. I like to fill in the blanks left out of the typical cometary. Of course I intend to irritate those that need irritating. I don't think Israel is infallible or completely innocent. I do think it will continue to do what it must to continue and prosper (it's GDP is very high and international clients are scrambling for Israeli tech.). The Palestinian also seem hell bent on not negotiating, violent protests and the insistence they have the clout to negotiate as an equal partner and not one that was vanquished 7 times. And the sad thing is- they could have had their West Bank/gaza connected state but won't think about a deal until Israel turns over all of the Eastern formerly jewish sector of jerusalem and the wall which will never happen without an all out conflagration. And worse yet, they area standing firm by ror even though they have had to accept that the jews in Israel were forced, kicked and chased out of their own lands after'48. They were absorbed into Israel while not one of your brethren would do the same for you. Israel has made clear that at the most a symbolic number of refugees can return but they will not submit to an obvious two-faced scam demanding the return of millions, demanding equal treatment and then stepping Israel of its Jewish quality, nature and sovereignty. It is just not going to happen in a1000 years. BDS America can play as coy as they want with their supposedly'non-committal' stance on ror. They just say they will leave it to the palestinians which is exactly like saying we have no opinions on the survival of buffalo but we support allowing millions of wolves and pumas into their grazing land. The entire idea of the creation of Israel was so that the tiny country will be a bastion of democracy but will maintain Jewish sovereignty for all time. If you want to pretend otherwise, take a lemon and eat it

    • I thought this was a fairly well reasoned piece that even Zionist haters might appreciate. See for yourselves

      Michael Chabon Touched A Nerve — And Shouting Him Down Is Not The Remedy
      June 13, 2018
      Joshua Holo
      Joshua HoloCommunity Contributor
      Dr. Joshua Holo is the Dean of the Jack H. Skirball Campus of Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion in Los Angeles and Associate Professor of Jewish History at HUC-JIR/LA. He served as Director of HUC-JIR’s Louchheim School of Judaic Studies from 2006-2010. Dr. Holo’s publications focus on Medieval Jews of the Mediterranean, particularly in the Christian realm. His book, Byzantine Jewry in the Mediterranean Economy, was published by Cambridge University Press in 2009. He is the creator of HUC-JIR’s College Commons, a digital platform offering live-streamed events and on-demand videos and podcasts of topical and scholarly content for Reform congregations and the general public.

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      The views and opinions expressed in this article are the author's own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Forward.

      Israeli-American novelist Ayelet Waldman (R) and her spouse American novelist Michael Chabon pose for a picture in Jerusalem on June 18, 2017.
      Getty Images
      Israeli-American novelist Ayelet Waldman (R) and her spouse American novelist Michael Chabon pose for a picture in Jerusalem on June 18, 2017.

      Michael Chabon’s recent graduation speech to the Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion (HUC-JIR) has reinvigorated fiery accusations of Israel- and Jewish self-hatred against Jewish opponents of Israeli administration of the West Bank. Not only Chabon, who vigorously voiced this opposition, but also HUC-JIR, which hosted him, have come under attack.

      These ugly charges impoverish the very Zionist argument they seek to support, because they narrow the range of healthy debate that has always characterized the Zionist enterprise. Worse, they betray a fear of reasoned disagreement. The Zionism of these reductive, hair-trigger accusations suggests a delicate ideology that cannot sustain the competition of ideas. But the Zionism of Israelis and committed American Jews is no such snowflake; it is a robust and vibrant proposition, fully able to absorb, respond, and adapt to reasoned critique.

      The controversy around Israel’s role in the West Bank provokes particularly strident discord within the Jewish community and in its outward-facing politics-hence the name-calling. Precisely because the stakes are so high, both Left and Right should resist the specious charges of Israel — or Jewish self-hatred against their opponents. These allegations forsake the spirit of committed debate among a single people, and in practical terms, they thwart a clear-eyed assessment of a legitimately difficult reality.

      As a matter of principle, the charge of Israel-hatred dulls our Jewish and American traditions’ self-assured embrace of a free marketplace of ideas. Under the sway of such accusations, we shut down the Rabbinic dictum legitimating both sides of a dispute as “words of the living God.” And we ignore James Madison’s preference expressed in The Federalist Papers for “the increased variety of parties comprised within the Union” as a source of political security for all.

      To be sure, the early Rabbis limited their penchant for debate with a proviso. Though “every disagreement with a heavenly purpose endures” in its pursuit of truth, “one that lacks a heavenly purpose does not.” The learned debate of Hillel and Shammai represents “disagreement with a heavenly purpose,” while Korach’s attempted coup against Moses represents one that lacks such purpose.

      The epithets “Israel-hater” and “enemy of the Jews” attempt to relegate Jewish opponents of Israel’s administration of the West Bank to the camp of Korach. They lump loyal critics of Israel with renegades, traitors to the shared Zionist project and, therefore, ineligible to disagree with leadership. But such dismissal conveniently avoids grappling with the fact that left-wingers, or doves, aim for nothing less than Israel’s success as a secure, Jewish, and democratic state.

      Like the Right, the Left argues from a security perspective. They see the West Bank not as a bulwark against violence but as a threat to Israel’s security, demography, and character. Where the Right considers it utterly naïve to disengage from the West Bank, the Left sees a Zionist imperative.

      Moreover, liberal American Jews did not invent disengagement; that honor belongs to Ariel Sharon. His successor, Ehud Olmert, viewed it as inevitable, even though he fully appreciated that it would “.obligate us to rip away many portions of the homeland - in Judea, Samaria, Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.” Former Israeli prime ministers, from both the Left and the Right, pragmatically concluded that parts of the land are not worth the cost of retaining them.

      Sometimes nomenclature muddies our understanding of those areas in relation to Israel. “West Bank,” “Cisjordan,” “Judea and Samaria,” and “Occupied Territories” all reflect authentic facets of reality. If someone wants to argue the West Bank’s identity with Israel, well and good. Likewise, if one recognizes occupation as such, but concludes its necessity for Israel’s security. Those positions fall well within the pale of reasonable debate. They do not, however, justify besmirching those who distinguish between Israel and the West Bank, and who view Israel’s administration of the West Bank as occupation. That position, too, falls within the pale.

      Offended by Michael Chabon’s words? Have at it. Chabon’s words and tone encourage it, and as an institution of higher learning, so does HUC-JIR. The lack of a unified Jewish front regarding Israel’s West Bank policy need not represent a gross fissure in our fundamental and abiding commitment to the State of Israel. But personal attacks on Jewish Zionists as Israel-haters might open one up. In addition, these charges misuse, and thereby undercut the power of, terms like “antisemite,” making it easier for real enemies of the Jews to shrug them off.

      In closing: a concession and a call to reason. In a perfect world, liberals or doves would not need to preface every reasoned criticism with a disclaimer professing love and commitment to Israel as a secure, Jewish, and democratic state. Absent a perfect world, however, the Left would benefit from shoring up its rhetoric with more of those statements, if nothing else because they’re true and some people need to hear them.

      It is also true that enemies of Israel may take cover behind Jewish criticism of Israel, and that fact deserves our attention. It does not deserve our fearful self-recusal from the substantive debate. Nor does it does justify collapsing proper critique and downright hostility into a single undifferentiated phenomenon, especially when the critique comes from proud Jews who care about Israel. So, hawks and conservatives, for their part, need to rein in their own partisans who cheapen this important debate with shrill, inaccurate, and destructive accusations. To be sure, our individual views of “the truth” may jostle and chafe one another. But each position belongs to a whole that is a vital part of a single Jewish people with a shared destiny. It’s time

    • @elj

      Well, I try to be polite to someone someone so devoted to their cause

    • @an

      It's not really a "new myth". Of course groups need 'stories'. Oral history in groups that had no developed written word go back 1000s of years and nobody argues wth them. Most ethnic groups have origin stories. and groups that consider their nation to be miraculously(or otherwise) reborn would naturally have a story connecting the modern to the ancient. Sometimes the defeat of a greater nation figures into the myth while destruction of smaller groups might not. difficult to discuss origin stories and the so-called morality of any given group in the context of the present.

    • @dgf

      Curious as to what you believe the status of eastern sector of jerusalem was before 1967? and from who is it occupied? Is the green line an international border or a truce demarcation? not that insignificant questions like these matter in international law....

    • @nft

      I'm unaware that any but a small percentage of american jews repudiate their jewish identities in exchange for american ones. just like dozens of ethnic/cultural groups in the us hold onto and display prominently their distinct identities, so do the jews. it maY be only the far left so-called progressive and elite jews from academia and nyc who give the impression that they don't identify as jews. Other then that everybody there is an american unless their not.

    • @ec

      Be careful. the same argument about the mouse and whale can be applied to arabs in the palestinian mandate. the palestinians are considered palestinian because they claimed a national identity apart from arab after israel was created

    • @rha

      Taking the comments about a negotiated peace from a numbskull thick headed elj seriously is like using a mango to open a coconut. An absolutist who can only understand his own mediocre and true believing mindset. he cannot comprehend that jews are anything but a religious choice as if that has ever proven true throughout the past thousand years of history. he would prefer to ignore reality and history until his perceived arch enemy is destroyed. he must be very insecure with his own ethnic/cultural identity to spend so much energy denying another's does not exist. a very poor and unintelligent way to strategize.

      That he's 'dedicated' is not in question. dedicated to what is the problem for him.

    • Of course they can "decide". If these hypothetical adversarial nations decide the way to deal with jews having a state in israel is to destroy it by constant warfare and israel destroys them instead then that is their choice to continue with war. if they decide to use international organizations to delegitimize this jewish nation then they should be prepared to lose the fundamental case in court. they could also decide to negotiate an end to the 100yr old conflict. But what sense would that make.

    • @mssr

      you used to be an ethnocentric jew and pw convinced you otherwise? amazing.

      and at least it's entertaining to me. just figured it must be a frustrating place if the only arguing is between anti-zionist israel hating left wingers and anti-zionist libertarians who hate israel.

    • @mssr

      No more important then identifying oneself as palestinian I suppose.

      and your wrong, they identify askinasi jews as being khazzer. of some turkic origin as in not having fled judea, samaria, Israel across Africa, up through spain and on into eastern europe. And based on a flimsy unproven story about a supposed khazzer king who may or may not have converted to judaism after defeat by arab marauders.

    • @m

      Hillel the elder had never seen the mosque built on top of the temple. Maybe he would have approved though he was referring to jews. wondering if there is any equivalent in Islam where what's theirs is ours. the israeli govt fulfilled hillels points when they opened Jerusalem to christian, jewish, muslim, bahai prayer . The temple mount is ours but it's yours under control of the waqf.

    • @y

      where did halevy label anybody a traitor? he did mention there are small (implied, insignificant) groups that will maintain the separation between zionism and jews in the Jewish nation. halevy, in my view, just seems to be stating the obvious. like, the USA is not returning the first nations land they stole(and which so many mw commenters are living and thriving on) or, like nobody here is going to clamour for putin to return crimea, china- tibet, taiwan, etc.

      the nicest way I could put it is:

      Phil is a jewish rebel who used to be a journalist but is now an expert pro-Palestinian, pro-hamas, pro-hezbollah,pro-tyrannical mullah controlled islamic iran propagandist.

      So, other then the ridiculous assumption I get paid to write this entertaining invective, I suppose I would be considered much more heinous by the average mw commenter.

    • @n

      I also failed to note any quote by which halevy said anybody was "not a jew" as PW claims. He did claim an end to any idea of seperating zionism from jews. Just because somebody is a so-called progressive and far left activist and happens to own one of the more popular (and officially labeled) 'hate site') anti-irael/zionist pro tyrannical mullah Iran web sites in the US and whose commentary section daily contains some of the most creative vitriolic jew-hating snippets and accusations around the web does not make somebody no longer a jew.

      However, if an abundance of jew hating commenters here had their druthers pw would not be considered a jew just by virtue of the so-called khazzer 'theory' of eastern european jewish origin. in fact, a lot of folks here who support this dubious khazzer origin don't consider halevy,, Netanyahu or even Sarah Barnhart a jew let alone little 'ol PW.

  • Argentinian soccer team boycotts Israel -- and 'NY Times' whitewash fails to quote a single player
    • If it was a massive kick as mag asserted it was our own damn selves kicking our own butts. In this case our illustrious minister of sports and culture decided that a friendly match, that had been months in the making, paid for Ann's scheduled for Haifa-in other words2-wear fine deal suddenly felt the need to have the match moved to the hottest and most contested part of the conflict. Still burning from the opening of the embassy the PA leadership didn't just want to relay complaints to FIFA. They wanted to really fuck up the israeli accomplishment which turned into obnoxious gloating by certain govt officials. Sure, there will be games I Jerusalem but now? And the audacity of regev announcing she'd be taking a selfie with Messi in Jerusalem. Uh..... Guess not.

      The only thing I would take issue with is not that a few Argentine players voiced Palestinian sympathies (argentina had the largest community of Palestinians I believe). This issue is the foreign minister of Argentina along with the coach and owner were quoted as saying the terroristic threats the players got were'worse then Isis' . That innocent family members harassed or threatened, the images of blood soaked jerseys and written treats to burn. Even if some players publicly supported the cancel we will never truly know wether it was triggered by fear or sympathy. And rust the players had to give up and comfort their innocent families does not indicate that the cancellation was any great political victory. But in Israel/palestine o perception counts for a lot so..... Not a shining moment for Israel and Regev should be put on leave for a while.

  • Netanyahu used 'leadership of American Jewish community' to block Obama policy -- Ben Rhodes
    • Well, for starters and despite the fact they despise him they should know how academically gifted Netanyahu is. Masters, PhD, MIT, Israel air force service, elite squadrons, illustrious family with one brother dying a hero. And Obama? As far as I know he stopped smoking weed enough to get into Harvard law, he taught some associate level courses on cont. Law then went to Chicago top knock on doors. He was groomed from that point on to be a senator and next prez.

      While Barry ifs no dummy he was definitely out of his league on many different levels. So, Barry hates Netanyahu. Bibi has dozens of important world leaders who both respect him and like him very much

    • @ellt

      Ha. wasn't likely "in the thrall of..." the lobby, so much as he had been taught to fear the political Fallout from chastising

    • @i

      If Israel wasn't there there would be no need for an Iran deal in the first place. You concerns are mostly bs.

    • Proving what? That Bibi brilliantly worked Obama like the junior varsity statesman he was? So Barry acted petulantly on the last few weeks of his term by using the absurdly ineffective UN to punish him. As if that hasn't happened before to no avail.

  • Open Letter to Wajahat Ali: Don't undermine the Palestinian struggle
    • @annie

      I don't read haartz. But, there is nothing you wrote that I take any issue with. wether you know your history or it's all from the hrtz it is all a good approximation of the site. I would add that there are a few archeological discoveries that hone closely with the history told of Hezekiah in the bible about the Siloam tunnel and the Jews preparation for an Assyrian siege. radio carbon data points to the correct time period but some scientists area still testing. But none of this is disputing your comment about how many people's inhabited the city and surroundings.
      There is also purported to be a coin found recently with the name Dvd but I wouldn't count it until it's been examined more.

      As for wether I'm "crazy"? I do apologize if I made assumptions about commenters not caring about other conflict zones. I suppose I should know by now that mw is specifically focused on the I/P conflict, anti-zionism, antiisraelism, and pro-israel palestinian hasbara.
      . (I believe sites like MW have used the word enough that itS appropriate to use in general discussion. It's a unique word that doesn't exactly mean propaganda but the palestinians do it as much as Israelis and most people know exactly what it is when they hear or read it.

      And you are right about it being too overwhelming to bring in the Syrian, Yemeni, Libyan and other ME conflicts where far more civilians are being killed daily but the conflicts don't directly touch on the I/P situation.


      Not sure what your definition of whining is but there were a few questions, none of which you answered. And you are welcome to explain where I was wrong. You pretty much just stick to your conviction that a jew is a person who chose to identify as jewish. period. got it. is the Islamic Republic of Iran just a nation that simply chose to identify as Muslim?

    • @mh

      You say you can find no compatible suffering.

      I think there were approximately 50 million people displaced in the 20thC just from WW2. yet you can, with all your knowledge, and I assume you are very well read, only see the suffering of a group of Arabs(among many millions of Arabs displaced by the arbitrary drawing of nations by Europeans like Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan etc.)

      This group of displaced Arabs, perhaps 600-725,000 out of millions of others displaced and who mostly joined a seven Arab army that attacked one of the newly carved out nations,(the tiniest of any surrounding nation) and lost thereby resulting in many more then might have been forced or ordered to leave for other Arab states.

      After llosing several more wars and infinite violent skirmishes this group of Arabs adapted the identity of Palestinian (which ironically or not had been a connotation for the Jews who were thriving there during the mandate and before Israel was considered. But that, I would admit is irrelevant now)

      . So, now Palestinian as separate nation from Jordanians (recently carved out of the original homeland for the Jews but altered by the white paper. And also, in the most egregious example of European arrogance the trans-jordan was not given to the Arabs who lived there and made up over 75% population. No, because the hashemite dynasty and king was humiliated at his defeat by the Sauds got himself installed as monarch over people not even his own) But even so, there was now Jordan and Palestinians. There are very many stab scholars who will teach that the Jordanians and Palestinian,bds are one and the same and Abbas has stated publicly on different occasions that'as soon as Palestine is free(river to sea) we will join with our brothers in Jordan' so, whatever that means....

      But now, 70 yrs after ww2 , with Syrians, Afghanis, Sudanese, biafrans, Pakistanis, Tibetans, Czechs, Bosnians, Kurds, Armenians , z Germans, aboriginals, Zulu, Hutu, Chinese, Cambodian and many others you have chosen to focus on the condition of the Palestinians. And you must know that the United Nations treats Palestinian refugees not only different and exclusive of, but funds the Palestinian refugees much more then any group of suffering refugees in the world, period. The billions in aide is more then any other refugees combined. Tyre palestinians also are entitled to a unique categorization: they are entitled to perpetual refugee status. Meaning a grandfather in 48 has a daughter in Lebanon. They all immigrate to Canada where the daughter has three babies. ALL of those babies who are naturalized Canadian citizens are still entitled to refugee status by the UN and therefore much of the world.

      And since nobody can tell anybody else what should be or shouldn't be meaningful to them you have studied (you claimed) and reached the conclusion that the palestinians are unique in the world in that their suffering as refugees is greater then any other example you could find.

      The fact that the tiny piece of land the Palestinians want to 'reclaim' (ignoring conveniently that Arabs themselves invaded, conquered and colonized the land) happens to be the ancient homeland of the Jewish people (who were almost entirely displaced from Europe without one single other 'jewish' state that would take them in. The surrounding area is about 1000x larger then Israel and was ruled by mostly Islamic monarchies, regimes or otherwise. The fact that the ancient Jewish bible which was adapted by Christianity and partly by Islam contained 100s of references in daily prayers that beseeched g-d that they should return to Jerusalem again. (Not like putting zionists in Uganda exactly)

      So, while at least as many Jewish Arabs between 700-1,000,000 were chased threatened and had their property stolen and were displaced as were Palestinian. Why their surrounding brethren in Islamic/arab nations did not embrace them as citizens is a question I can not answer.

      But you interest and fixation on the PalestinianS as the most suffering group of refugees possibly in the world (or at lest the most unique) is noted. The fact that the land they want is inhabited by Jews who have established a functioning thriving Jewish nation with full civil rights for Arabs, Jews, Druze, gays, people of any colour or race woman had nothing to do with Jews. Of course not. It makes absolutely no logical sense

    • @ro

      1. I do not think MW commenters privately idolize nazi iconography. I don't even think MW commenters think much about modern neo nazis at all.
      Now, if your talking about searching history for any miniscule crumb or a load the size of Plymouth rock of actual evidence of Nazi actions against gypsies, Jews and some others so as to compare these actions to Israel, well then your getting closer. There is definitely a subset of commenters on MW that either believe, enjoy or simply repeat these asinine memes and comparisons for either kicks or delusional satisfaction in intellectual ability.

      And in answer to your slightly skewed questions:

      Mitigated...?. Yes. Absolutely

      Would it reduce...?. Yes.

      So all this...... Irrelevant? Not in the least. It makes it more so.

    • @ all of ya's

      Oh how cute. Y'all are so coy. "Oh my oh my, there is nothing in the least bit similar about a Muslim nation and a Jewish state. " (in the voice of scarlet o'hara.)

      In what Muslim nation were Jews and Christians not subjected to certain restrictive and humiliating laws/rules based on the concept that Islam is not just a religion but a governing system and it was an absolute requirement that Islam must reign superior to judaism/christianity?

      those Muslim nations, in the name of Islam, want to destroy Israel, wipe it from face of earth, put it in dust bin of history , march en masse (or at least in the millions) on Jerusalem. Of course it has nothing to do with jews. It only has to do with concern for the Arabs and Palestinians there. Who cares about Yemen, Syria, Libya? There ain't no Jews there. And btw: where is the fourth and fifth holiest shrine in Islam?

      P's. Interesting note: the other day in the city of david a Muslim talisman was found in a floor strata dating back to approximately 1000yrs or The Abbasid calaphate period. (The golden age of Islam) the clay talisman was beautifully intricate and nobody could believe something so fragile could still be intact. It might have been placed between tiles. It basically said what many modern talismans say: may the one and only god _____protect me

    • @ec

      I don't believe anything until I see it. even if these so-called 'murderers' from the far right fanatical religious sector decided to make trouble were a negotiated peace treaty on the table they would not have the cumulative power to fight the state.

      As for a treaty?. Just as the Arabs will not sign a treaty that doesn't give them control of al-aqsa and eastern Jerusalem (and other stuff) the Israelis, both left and right will never negotiate a treaty that doesn't end the conflict permanently and will never agree to a policy where Jews would quickly become a minority in their own nation(been there, done that) Financial compensation and a symbolic return of 1000s to Israel have already been put on the table. If the Arabs agreed to basic Olmert plan the right wing fanatics, I repeat, would not have enough strength to defeat a comprehensive treaty that ENDS the conflict... That means it's over. No more claims

      And if not, which is the most likely scenario....Status Quo. That is the kryptonite for Netanyahu. He hasn't became the longest serving, most trusted (achem, yup) PM for nothing. He's a master of maintaining the status quo and evidently, the billionaire Hamas leaders in Qatar and billionaire Abbas and his multitudes of cronies like it that way too. (And, while mondo Weiss commenters may believe that Israelis are the ones pushing status quo They should take a less gloomy trip then owner PW to the suburbs of Ramallah or other built up areas. Check out the pallazzos' and English manors and other mansions in the hills. Do a little count of % luxury cars that most Americans or Israelis cAnti afford. Of course there is still an underclass. Still refugee camps. It's not a utopia, it's a kleptocrsy/ patronage govt with a military occupation by Israel. But a lot trickles down West Bank Arabs have VERY little motivation to wreak havoc on what they have been able to build in the past decades. They are definitely not willing to have their infrastructure, cities, homes and civic sites destroyed. The West Bank may not be economically on par with its neighbor to the west but it is definitely in better shape then its traditional homeland (occupied by hashemite dynasty) and neighbor to east.

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